Azula and Zuko vs. Pre TS Sasuke

[Manwë Súlimo]

Azula and Zuko from Avatar vs. Pre Timeskip Sasuke. Zuko gets his broadswords and Sasuke gets a supply of shuriken and kunai. Sasuke can't used the Cursed Seal. Fight takes place in an Agni-Kai arena.

[Tash]

Saucekay gets roasted.

[Sylar]

Azula fries Sasuke with a lightning bolt.

[Graham Aker]

Sasuke....

edit:
forgot his match with Gaara :sweatdrop
something is off with me today...

[Protect_The_Butter]

Sasuke kills Azula of the bat. He turns to beat on Zuko but before he allows Zuko a few words. The Zuko tells all about how his father hates him and that he was never better than his sister.

Sasuke remembers his own strife that he went through with Itachi and the death of his family. He opts to let Zuko live. Then they both kiss passionately, open mouth, with tounge.

[Banhammer]

Sasuke uses fireball, and zuko and katara turn it against him. Even if by some miracle he does beat azula, he'll die in the raised inferno.

So, in order to survive, he wilingly allows zuko to rape him, after wich, he firebends a way out.

[King Bookah]

Uh, Sasuke is way faster than the both of them. They'll be dead before they know it. Not to mention, Chidori will wipe them out.

[Banhammer]

no it won't. Azula can bend a lighting and hit at a distance, while firewall has shown defence against all elements.

Plus, theire kung fu is> Sasuke's taijutsu.

The sharingan however could be a problem, but if they like I said, turn everything around them on fire, he has to surrender if he wants to live. Not even the great sasuke is fireproof.

[King Bookah]

So, I'm curious, how do we know Azula can bend Sasuke's lightning? I mean how does that hole thing work out? (I'm being serious, not antagonizing)

Still, even without elements, Pre TS Sasuke's still to fast for them to catch him. Even with their bending powers, it'll be to late to reverse the attack, cuz by then, they'll be hit.

[Banhammer]

Zuko can bend lightning out of his way, Iroh taught him that. If he hits him, he's lost.
Then azula fries his ass.

[King Bookah]

I think you're missing the point. Doesn't matter if he can bend lightning and such, he'll be hit before he gets the chance. Unless you got evidence of Zuko and Azula moving fast enough as to not be seen.

I believe you when you say they can control elements, I've seen the show before. But will they be fast enough to catch Sasuke is what I'm saying.

[Dio Brando]

I honestly don't like defending Saucekay, but he takes this.

He's faster, physically stronger, Sharingan will let him see what moves they are going to use (Avatar combat is stance based and such, it shouldn't be hard for Sharingan). Considering that Avatar characters are also pretty average durability, he should be able to finish them off quite quickly.

[Banhammer]

Pretime skip sasuke dosen't have his sharingan that well trained, at least to keep up with the top firebenders simultanesly, and knowing they can hide behind walls of fire, and even turn his ninjutsu back at him.

[Dio Brando]

He doesn't need ninjutsu. He could literally break their necks or just stab with a kunai. And preskip Sasuke's sharingan is the same as it is now, three tomoed. Only difference is that now he uses a bit of genjutsu.

[Banhammer]

You sure? I think fireshild could hold out anything sasuke throws at him. But with avatar characters against surrealistic japanese, there isn't much argument possible

[Blood Dawn]

Well, technically all benders use certain movements, which the Sharingan could predict. Now, if one would look at this in a theoritical approach, Sasuke could plan and time the fire/lightbending.

I'm giving this to Sasuke, because most people forget he has Cursed Seal.

[Dio Brando]

It's not like they always use a shield of fire.

Also Sauce could probably get through it before it goes up, or quickly enough so that he doesn't suffer much damage (like a finger through a candle flame, if you will). Sasuke's stamina is also well above theirs, as Avatar fights never last long, meanwhile Sasuke has spent far longer in battles.

[King Bookah]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4863/p2ui7.jpg

Pretty much cements my argument. Sasuke is too fast for them to react. And plus 3 tomoe Sharingan (not in this scan, but during his battle vs Naruto). End of Pre TS Sasuke, remember.

[Kai]

Ridiculous matchup. Sasuke speedblitzes both of them the moment the match starts.

Sharingan takes care of everything otherwise.

[Metric]

3 tomoe Sharingan + speed = Sasuke win.

[Banhammer]

Yeah, I have to concede...

[Steven Pinhead]

Almost any other genin Pre-TS would be pwned, but even the Avatar fanboy that I am has to concede this one. Sasuke is too fast for them.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Ok, here are my thoughts (I usually post a matchup before fully thinking it through)

Sasuke's fire ninjitsu would be largely ineffective. Both Zuko and Azula can easily block or redirect it. Shuriken and kunai could also be deflected or avoided by the two quite easily

Sasuke, however, has no real defense against firebending and lightning. However, he has speed. It would take a lot of speed to avoid lightning, but still, it would be hard to land a hit on him.

So, at long range, it's hard to land a hit on Sasuke and hits on Azula and Zuko would not be very effective. Moving on to close range...

While Sasuke is fast, it's not like Azula and Zuko have no reflexes. Firebending is based on a real world full-fledged martial art, Northern Shaolin Kung Fu. It works in melee just as well, if not better, than long range. While Sasuke is strong and fast, he would be met by explosive fiery blocks and jabs. Zuko's lightning-blocking technique would be effective against chidori, but Azula would be vulnerable to it.

Here's a little narrative to how it would generally go, in my opinion


Sasuke starts out on one side of the arena, and Azula and Zuko at the opposite. Azula and Zuko take their stances, and Sasuke activates his Sharingan.

First, Sasuke tests his opponents' reflexes by throwing some kunai at them. They dodge them or deflect them with relative ease, and counter by launching fire blasts at him.

Sasuke jumps over the fire and launches his own fireblasts at Zuko and Azula. They easily block it. Azula launches a blast that almost hits Sasuke, but he swiftly dodges it.

Sasuke lands and closes the distance. Azula is surprised to find Sasuke right behind her, but evades Sasuke's punch quickly enough and delivers her own. Sasuke also evades the punch, but is knocked back by the blue fire that issues from Azula's hand.

Then Zuko rushes in and attempts to pound Sasuke with fireblasts. Sasuke avoids this as well, and draws a kunai and attacks Zuko. Zuko blocks but Sasuke cuts into his arm. Zuko draws his own blades, and blocks Sasuke's ensuing strikes with the kunai. Once again, Sasuke is thrown back by the firebending used in conjunction with the attack.

Sasuke draws back, then prepares his Chidori. Zuko and Azula recognize the electricity, and Zuko prepares for a redirection technique.

*deciding point: Sasuke attacks Azula or Zuko first with Chidori*

Scenario 1

Sasuke rushes at Zuko with the eletricity cackling in his hand. Zuko grabs that hand, draws the energy through his body, and shoots it out in the opposite direction. Zuko takes advantage of Sasuke's shock and nails him with a fiery kick to the chest. Sasuke is knocked back, tries to get back up, but staggers under the strain to his injury. Azula nails him with lightning.

Scenario 2

Sasuke rushes at Azula with the electricity cackling in his hand. Azula fails to dodge, and Sasuke drives through her.

As Sasuke stands over the fallen Azula, Zuko launches tremendous fireblasts in rage. Sasuke dodges them, then engages Zuko close range. Sasuke is careful to avoid the main force of the fireblasts as well as the jabs, and works around Sasuke's self-defense using his Sharingan. Sasuke manages to drive a kunai into Zuko's chest.

[Wuzzman]

Ok, here are my thoughts (I usually post a matchup before fully thinking it through)

Sasuke's fire ninjitsu would be largely ineffective. Both Zuko and Azula can easily blocked or redirected. Shuriken and kunai could also be deflected or avoided by the two quite easily

Sasuke, however, has no real defense against firebending and lightning. However, he has speed. It would take a lot of speed to avoid lightning, but still, it would be hard to land a hit on him.

So, at long range, it's hard to land a hit on Sasuke and hits on Azula and Zuko would not be very effective. Moving on to close range...

While Sasuke is fast, it's not like Azula and Zuko have no reflexes. Firebending is based on a real world full-fledged martial art, Northern Shaolin Kung Fu. It works in melee just as well, if not better, than long range. While Sasuke is strong and fast, he would be met by explosive fiery blocks and jabs. Zuko's lightning-blocking technique would be effective against chidori, but Azula would be vulnerable to it.

Here's a little narrative to how it would generally go, in my opinion


Sasuke starts out on one side of the arena, and Azula and Zuko at the opposite. Azula and Zuko take their stances, and Sasuke activates his Sharingan.

First, Sasuke tests his opponents' reflexes by throwing some kunai at them. They dodge them or deflect them with relative ease, and counter by launching fire blasts at him.

Sasuke jumps over the fire and launches his own fireblasts at Zuko and Azula. They easily block it. Azula launches a blast that almost hits Sasuke, but he swiftly dodges it.

Sasuke lands and closes the distance. Azula is surprised to find Sasuke right behind her, but evades Sasuke's punch quickly enough and delivers her own. Sasuke also evades the punch, but is knocked back by the blue fire that issues from Azula's hand.

Then Zuko rushes in and attempts to pound Sasuke with fireblasts. Sasuke avoids this as well, and draws a kunai and attacks Zuko. Zuko blocks but Sasuke cuts into his arm. Zuko draws his own blades, and blocks Sasuke's ensuing strikes with the kunai. Once again, Sasuke is thrown back by the firebending used in conjunction with the attack.

Sasuke draws back, then prepares his Chidori. Zuko and Azula recognize the electricity, and Zuko prepares for a redirection technique.

*deciding point: Sasuke attacks Azula or Zuko first with Chidori*

Scenario 1

Sasuke rushes at Zuko with the eletricity cackling in his hand. Zuko grabs that hand, draws the energy through his body, and shoots it out in the opposite direction. Zuko takes advantage of Sasuke's shock and nails him with a fiery punch to the chest. Sasuke is knocked back, tries to get back up, but staggers under the strain to his injury. Azula nails him with lightning.

Scenario 2

Sasuke rushes at Azula with the electricity cackling in his hand. Azula fails to dodge, and Sasuke drives through her.

As Sasuke stands over the fallen Azula, Zuko launches tremendous fireblasts in rage. Sasuke dodges them, then engages Zuko close range. Sasuke is careful to avoid the main force of the fireblasts as well as the jabs, and works around Sasuke's self-defense using his Sharingan. Sasuke manages to drive a kunai into Zuko's chest.

that sounds about right.

[Banhammer]

Well, there is a chance azula's fire shield could block lightning (It has blocked all elements at once!)
Plus, if they start by lighting the whole arena on fire, sasuke could die either way.
Though your explanation sounds about right

[Manwë Súlimo]

I doubt Azula and Zuko have enough power to set the whole arena on fire. Maybe if the whole arena was flammable, but it's not.

Also, someone said that Sasuke could run through the fire fast enough that it wouldn't burn him. Perhaps he could for normal fire, but fireblast, especially Azula's, have a lot of force behind it, not just heat.

[Manwë Súlimo]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4863/p2ui7.jpg

Pretty much cements my argument. Sasuke is too fast for them to react. And plus 3 tomoe Sharingan (not in this scan, but during his battle vs Naruto). End of Pre TS Sasuke, remember.

Just had to answer this.

Gaara is not a good measurement of Taijutsu speed. He's no Taijutsu specialist.

Sure, Sasuke is fast on his feet, but that does equate to close combat speed.

[Banhammer]

You know, Beyonce did that sand raising speed on that "Deja Vu" videoclip, and she did no seem that fast.. lol

[Crazykramer07]

Sasuke fights fire with fire, and dominates.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Sasuke certainly has firepower, but he can't control the fire once it is launched. Azula and Zuko can manipulat fire as well as create it, and together should be able to resist any fire Sasuke shoots at them.

No, fire techniques aren't the key to this victory for Sasuke.

[Graham Aker]

If he uses fire against the duo, he would be in trouble.

[Tash]

Sasuke fights fire with fire, and dominates.

I hope you're joking. Katons normally don't mean shit in Naruto so you think that they will work against two people experienced at starting fires with much more force and also putting out fire with a simple gesture. If sasuke uses katon it well never touch either of them. It's too slow and not hot enough they would put out the fire before it reaches them. Sasukes best bet at taking one of them down is chidori.

[Banhammer]

and if he uses chidori against zuko.... He's fried

[Tash]

Actually if he starts the chidori charge from considerable distance he's fucked either way as Azula could raise a fire sheild and he would run through it being roasted.

[Banhammer]

Actually if he starts the chidori charge from considerable distance he's fucked either way as Azula could raise a fire sheild and he would run through it being roasted.

If he stood still long enough to charge chidori, then azula would fry his ass

[Manwë Súlimo]

Not with lightning, though- that takes time to charge too. If either Azula or Sasuke stand still long enough to charge their electric attacks without the opponent staying still, they're screwed.

I'm not sure if Azula's fire shield could withstand Chidori. True, Sasuke could get burned badly trying, but he would probably hit Azula too. And once he starts running with Chidori, I doubt Zuko and Azula could hit him effectively.

[Tash]

As Sasuke makes his hand seals and builds up chidori Azula could be making her lightning.

[Crimson Dragoon]

Sasuke kills Azula of the bat. He turns to beat on Zuko but before he allows Zuko a few words. The Zuko tells all about how his father hates him and that he was never better than his sister.

Sasuke remembers his own strife that he went through with Itachi and the death of his family. He opts to let Zuko live. Then they both kiss passionately, open mouth, with tounge.

Thread over.

[Tash]

Omg dude why do you plaster this hentai all over my screen.

[Banhammer]

azula needs far less time to build up lightning, wich afterwards she can spam

[Crimson Dragoon]

Because it is the truth.

[Orion]

And sasuke needs no time at all to blitz them with a kunai and call it a day.

[Banhammer]

And sasuke needs no time at all to blitz them with a kunai and call it a day.

ps sasuke?.. yeah, ahum, no...
His combat speed isn't that praisable, and sure as hell he can't go past fireball shiled

[Orion]

Shunshin>>the speed at which they could call fire.

[Crimson Dragoon]

Sasuke gets to have Zuko's babies.

[Banhammer]

that's the best chance he's got

[Tash]

And sasuke needs no time at all to blitz them with a kunai and call it a day.

Yup.:) blitz right into a fireball, or a bolt of lightning if he's lucky. Seriously sasukes faster than them when it comes to running speed but not to the extent where he can speed blitz them so easily. Thier reflexes plus the unpredictability of their attacks win this for instance, Sasuke may see Zuko about to punch but he can't predict where the fire will come from.

[Red]

If he uses fire against the duo, he would be in trouble.
Considering both his elements are going to be used against him he has a slight disadvantage.
Shunshin>>the speed at which they could call fire.
I don't think Pre time skip sasuke knows shunsui. He only has physical speed to his advantage.

[Tash]

Actually he does know it him and Kakashi used it to arrive at the Gaara's fight but he never used it like he does post TS. He doesn't spam it for insta speed.

[Orion]

Yup.:) blitz right into a fireball, or a bolt of lightning if he's lucky. Seriously sasukes faster than them when it comes to running speed but not to the extent where he can speed blitz them so easily. Thier reflexes plus the unpredictability of their attacks win this for instance, Sasuke may see Zuko about to punch but he can't predict where the fire will come from.

Yes sasuke is fast enough to blitz them before they even get an attack off,avatar characters arent very far above humans reaction speed wise,sasuke was as fast as weighted lee.

[Banhammer]

So, in other words, "Sp33dbl1tz!!11!"?

[Tash]

Thats his running speed, and sasuke is about as fast to them as Kuro was to luffy in OP. Not fast enough to blitz like gai did to sasuke. If he tries to charge Chidori he's screwed because it takes to long he would be fried before he builds up the chakra if he uses katon it would just be dissmissed by one of them the only thing in his arsenal that he could use would be kunai. If he tries to charge Zuko should be fast enough to parry with swords and Azula could raise her fire shield to block. If you think that sasuke is still faster then look how fast airspeed aang runs and ask yourself why Zuko wasn't speedblitzed by him.

[Orion]

Zuko is not fast enough to block any attack from sasuke,and all sasuke has to do is run by with a kunai outstreched and zuko and azula both die.

[Banhammer]

Sasuke is fast, but he cannot sp33dbl1tz!!11! the two top firebenders in the realm..

[Orion]

Sasuke is fast, but he cannot sp33dbl1tz!!11! the two top firebenders in the realm..

Yes he can,avatar people are a little bit above human reaction speed and sasukes speed far exceeds that,he could slit their throats before they realize he moved.

[Banhammer]

the day when taijutsu beats northen shao lin kung fu is yet to came.....

[Orion]

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31646
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31647
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31648
Dodges the attack while carrying 2 people,hes about 5x or so slower then the sasuke we are using in this battle,wow kung fu im so fucking scared,styles means shit in a battledome fight,avatar guys get blitzed and thats the end.

[Tash]

Once again I recommend you watch aang run with airspeed before you say speedblitz. He is easily charging at sasuke's speed when he does his airdash thing yet he has never "speedblitzed" Zuko.

[Orion]

Once again I recommend you watch aang run with airspeed before you say speedblitz. He is easily charging at sasuke's speed when he does his airdash thing yet he has never "speedblitzed" Zuko.

No aang isnt moving at sasukes speed,and aang also has never tried to speedblitz zuko like that,aang used fast speed like once and thats when he ran by the guards,sasuke can speedblitz them with a kunai rather easily.

[Banhammer]

I could try to think of a way to say exactly how they could start up the match by lighting the whole arena on fire, making sasuke burn to death wherever he goes, but I just realised no argument can stand against the "get of my lawn" blast maker
Again, I'm willing to concede

[Tash]

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31646
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31647
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31648
Dodges the attack while carrying 2 people,hes about 5x or so slower then the sasuke we are using in this battle,wow kung fu im so fucking scared,styles means shit in a battledome fight,avatar guys get blitzed and thats the end.

With this speed Sasuke would speedblitz. But sasuke isn't allowed to use CS in this.

[Orion]

Doesnt need to,hes much faster using lee speed without cs later.

[Tash]

Then why can an Unkyuubified naruto keep up with him in taijutsu. The speed you saw was running speed. In close combat as seen in the VotE fight he could be blocked by Naruto who has never shown exceptional speed before without kyuubi. How do you explain this.

[Orion]

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume6.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31487
You mean the naruto who is faster then this one?

[Tash]

No this.
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/vol26.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=14186
Sasuke had more than enough speed to begin his blitz but his attack was still blocked by Naruto who has constantly been portrayed as slow when it comes to speed. As for your link Sasuke was considerably panicked at the time. He didn't realize that a giant snake was lurking behind him.

[Orion]

Except naruto isnt slow as demonstrated by my scan hes much faster then the people here,sasuke also didnt seem to be using his lee like speed much that fight he only really used it once and when he did naruto couldnt react at all.

[Tash]

As for your belief that they are considerably slower what about Azula using fire bending to speed like a rocket at aang. Any speedblitzing on Naruto in the VotE fight was done by a CS sasuke. If you can show Sasuke Pre-TS without any manifestation of CS outright speed blitzing someone to the point they can't react even follow there movements with their eyes then I will concede and thats all I'm going to bed.

[Orion]

Lee with weights on(so hes much slower then with them off)was able to blitz a 2 tomoe sharingan sasuke who was for the most part following haku in his mirrors was able to blitz sasuke and kick him in the face before he could do anything,sasuke is as fast as weightless lee who is faster then that,I dont feel like digging scans up all night so you should know what im talking about if you read naruto.

[Banhammer]

Well, I think you should take the "sp33dbl1tz!!11!" described in the manga with a little bit of salt..

[Orion]

Well, I think you should take the "sp33dbl1tz!!11!" described in the manga with a little bit of salt..

What ya mean,its been done multiple times to people faster then zuko and azula,sasuke has no problem using his speed in battle to own people.

[Banhammer]

yes, well, I can't explain myself any better without sounding reportable.........
Just, that, maybe, there is the possiblility, that, most of naruto's speed feats are a little bit of.. Literay Freedoms... I think that's what it's called

[Orion]

Right....they are shown disapearing from superhuman sight on more then one occasion.....there is no reason they cant be used.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Azula and Zuko have reflexes. Get that through your head, please.

Foot speed and combat speed are different speed. And are you comparing Sasuke to himself for speed? I fail to see the logic there.

[Orion]

Azula and Zuko have reflexes. Get that through your head, please.

Foot speed and combat speed are different speed. And are you comparing Sasuke to himself for speed? I fail to see the logic there.

They have barely above normal human reflexes,sasuke has foot speed and combat speed that far exceeds both of them,actually my comparison was rather fine,he was already able to react to faster attacks then zuko or azula can dish out,yet he couldnt react to rock lee,he is later faster then the rock lee that could blitz him earlier,this all equals zuko and azula getting blitzed like children,now get out of the battledome avatard.

[Banhammer]

Hey, let's take it easy on the new guy ok?

And you know, again, take sasuke's sp33dbl1tz!!11! with a grain of salt.
You know, when they say sentry has "the power of a thousand exploding novas" they don't actually mean "the power of on thousand novas".
You see where I'm trying to get here?

[Orion]

Theres a big difference in whats stated by the sentry and the speed that sasuke has actually shown..sasuke has backed his speed up,sentry hasnt shown the power of a million exploding suns.

[Tash]

Feitan where are you getting that Azula and Zuko have human speed reflexes, I just want to know?

[Orion]

I said barely above,and im getting that because no speed they have ever reacted to or attacked with isnt much better then a peak human,sasuke on the other hand has reacted to and attacked at much higher speeds since chapter 30.

[Banhammer]

you know, they have been shown to dodge lightning actually traveling at lightning speed.

[Tash]

And what are you judging thier speed by, please don't say speedlines.

[Orion]

The lightning in avatar is nowhere near actual lightning speed,im juding their speed on ninjas have always been able to escape the field of vision of people with higher then human reflexes,sasuke using rock lees speed was able to disapear in front of highly trained ninjas.

[Banhammer]

I think lightning on avatar is pretty close to actual lightning speed. And people like zuko and iroh were capable of reacting to natural lightning and redirect it

[Orion]

I think lightning on avatar is pretty close to actual lightning speed.

Its not,avatar lightning seems barely supersonic at times let alone half the speed of light,and when have they ever reacted to natural lightning,iroh channeled lightning with a technique he didnt react after the lightning was coming and then do it he was waiting for it to come.

[Tash]

1) how do you figure avatar lightning is not as fast as normal lightning.
2)you have yet to show a cross the board comparison on why Sasuke could blitz them other than the fact that lee blitzed sasuke so I'm assuming you're looking at Avatar and dismissing their reaction time because they don't look fast.

[Orion]

1) how do you figure avatar lightning is not as fast as normal lightning.
2)you have yet to show a cross the board comparison on why Sasuke could blitz them other than the fact that lee blitzed sasuke so I'm assuming you're looking at Avatar and dismissing their reaction time because they don't look fast.
I have shown quite clearly why he could do it your just to stubborn to admit it,sasuke can blitz highly trained ninjas who far exceed normal humans in speed,avatar characters even when trying to move fast can easily be seen by normal humans,the only person to ever use any real speed in avatar is aang who has never actually used that speed in combat,and its not real lightning because omg the barely above normal human people can dodge and redirect it.

[Banhammer]

no, it's because in avatar's animation, speed is not defined by the skill of disapearing (dosen't angel and batman do that all the time?)
Though all martial art battles are usually defined by the skill of fighting before the oponent can react

and if avatar charcters react to lightning maybe it's because avatar characters are faster than you would think.

[Orion]

So we are blamming it on animation now,so they are really fast they just dont disapear..../rollseyes,its easy to show speed,the facts are sasuke has shown superhuman speed,azula and zuko havnt,skills dont matter when you can disapear and put a kunai in someones head before they realized you moved.

[Tash]

OK and why can't you just accept that characters in Avatar have reacted to lightning. Don't try to say that lightning is slower in avatar unless you can back it up with something other than "the characters look slow." Reacting to lightning puts them above normal human reaction speed, just accept it.
Zuko has been outclassed in combat by Azula, and Zuko is able to react to lightning. So unless you can prove sasuke surpassing lightning speeds sorry you lose just accept it. You have simply been dismissing the lightning feat because the avatar characters look slow.

[Orion]

OK and why can't you just accept that characters in Avatar have reacted to lightning. Don't try to say that lightning is slower in avatar unless you can back it up with something other than "the characters look slow." Reacting to lightning puts them above normal human reaction speed, just accept it.

Ill accept it when someone actually reacts to real lightning,iroh channeled lightning with a technique,he didnt wait till it already started coming down and then do it he called it down just to do that,the only other lightning is azulas which can quite easily be seen is not at the speed of lightning,accept that avatar isnt all its cracked up to be so why dont you just give up before you become the next rild.

[Crimson Dragoon]

LOL, Rild's lightning.

[Banhammer]

I don't think the fire brothers will be sitting down having pleasent chitchat waiting for sasuke to kill them either.....

[Dio Brando]

Lightning is one of the most annoying things in fiction, alot of creators don't realize how fast it actually is. Most magical lightning is never near the speed of real lightning, Naruto's Raitons included.

[Tash]

Explain to me any other reason other than the animation why Avatar lightning is slower. As far as I can tell you are only saying they're slow because of the way the show is animated. We go by feats in the OBD and dodging lightning is greater than sasuke has done. So I'm done responding unless you come up with a reason why Sasuke is faster than lightning, or a reason why lightning in Avatar is slower. As for Implosion thats how the OBD goes for example OP: I'm sure if Oda saw one of limit testers analyses he would be surprised how fast he made his characters. He doesn't think Luffy will travel 10000/s he is just trying to choreagraph his fights.

[Orion]

Explain to me any other reason other than the animation why Avatar lightning is slower. As far as I can tell you are only saying they're slow because of the way the show is animated. We go by feats in the OBD and dodging lightning is greater than sasuke has done. So I'm done responding unless you come up with a reason why Sasuke is faster than lightning, or a reason why lightning in Avatar is slower.

I just gave you the fucking reason are you that goddamn dense?avatar people can be tracked by the normal human eye when fighting,they dont disapear,hell they dont even outspeed people really,dodging magical lightning has been done by people slower then sasuke its not a big deal,avatar lightning that azula uses is clearly not the real speed of lightning because why?o yes those people who normal humans can track and react to can dodge it,no avatar person has avoided real lightning and until they do they arent at real lightning avoiding speed.

[Tash]

1) When was it stated they are normal humans. Normal humans don't control elements.
2)once again you are citing animation. It was agreed in a OP versus thread that just because the creator doesn't follow physics doesn't mean the characters are weaker, to explain why OP chars go so fast but we never see a sonic boom.
3) I reedited some of my post reread them you might understand them clearer
4) watch it you're getting flamish.
5) Watch the storm episode, Iroh redirects "real lightning"

[Dio Brando]

Explain to me any other reason other than the animation why Avatar lightning is slower. As far as I can tell you are only saying they're slow because of the way the show is animated. We go by feats in the OBD and dodging lightning is greater than sasuke has done. So I'm done responding unless you come up with a reason why Sasuke is faster than lightning, or a reason why lightning in Avatar is slower. As for Implosion thats how the OBD goes for example OP: I'm sure if Oda saw one of limit testers analyses he would be surprised how fast he made his characters. He doesn't think Luffy will travel 10000/s he is just trying to choreagraph his fights.

In One Piece's case it's ok because Enel is made of lightning himself, he IS lightning. Unlike Avatar, OP has many examples of superspeed which makes it consistent.

If Avatar lightning was real, it would be incredibly inconsistent with the speed shown by Avatar characters. Nothing suggests they can move anywhere near fast enough.

[Banhammer]

you know, I can see magneto freezing bullets after they0ve been fired, but yet, I don't think he mooves faster than superman

Or neo's bullet time
for all we know avatar could be slowing down their fight for us to enjoy and speeding naruto's so we get impressed

And sasuke's bl1tz1ng sp33d is pretty much an animation tool too...

[Orion]

1) When was it stated they are normal humans. Normal humans don't control elements.
2)once again you are citing animation. It was agreed in a OP versus thread that just because the creator doesn't follow physics doesn't mean the characters are weaker, to explain why OP chars go so fast but we never see a sonic boom.
3) I reedited some of my post reread them you might understand them clearer
4) watch it you're getting flamish.

They never show superhuman speed,what are we supposed to base their speed on if not animation its a animated only series that never shows anyone moving fast,and also normal humans have watched people like zuko fight did we forget him fighting those bandits in front a crowd of farmers are we going to say the farmers have superhuman eyesight or something?im not asking for a sonic boom im just asking for them to show something beyond what I myself could react to,im getting flamish because this is getting retarded we are going in circles iv proved sasukes speed and disproved avatars yet you keep coming back with the same crap.

[Banhammer]

You know, you say this now, but take it from experience, fighting against kung fu masters, in real life, is far more faster than what you could hope to react. I have a broken rib to proove it

[Tash]

Explain to me why Avatar lightning is slower other than the fact that the animation does not emphasize speed. As for your bandits argument I'm assuming you're talking about the earth bending bandits, the audience didn't seem the most attentive, the only commentary we got from them is"hit him with the left" when it was sword fight in the first place. And Feitan, can you react to lightning, if you can? *applause* The only reason you can't grasp the fact that they can react to lightning is because you just can't accept the fact that your favorite character known for his speed can't $p33d!#iTZ his way through this. So I suggest calming yourself down and thinking about how the OBD works before you post something you'll regret.

It seems like feats in the OBD count when it involves Zorro cutting Cannonballs and from that you figure out the speed of every OP char from that. But when it involves someone reacting to lightning, and you post that as a feat suddenly lightning is slower in that universe, and you get called an avatard for judging a fight by OBD rules. And people are surprised when they say the OBD is full of bias.

[Orion]

Explain to me why Avatar lightning is slower other than the fact that the animation does not emphasize speed. As for your bandits argument I'm assuming you're talking about the earth bending bandits, the audience didn't seem the most attentive, the only commentary we got from them is"hit him with the left" when it was sword fight in the first place. And Feitan, can you react to lightning, if you can? *applause* The only reason you can't grasp the fact that they can react to lightning is because you just can't accept the fact that your favorite character known for his speed can't $p33d!#iTZ his way through this. So I suggest calming yourself down and thinking about how the OBD works before you post something you'll regret.

I hate sasuke,I hate naruto go read any debate about them iv ever been in really,but even I can see when they will win,iv already explained and ill explain against this time wrap your head around it,humans see them move,the attacks are all very slow,no avatar character has reacted to real lightning,azulas lightning hasnt been shown to be anywhere near real lightning speed,if normal humans can watch him fight the earthbenders then they obviously arent very fast,you can keep trying and youll keep failing.

[Banhammer]

I'm sorry feitan, but I think we can assume whatever the speed we want from the manfa, so if I compare the shows, I'm really going to have to go with avatar.

[Orion]

You can assume all you want but when its drastically contradicted by feats it doesnt fly,sasuke is faster in movement speed and attack speed until someone can show me something to prove otherwise.

[Crimson Dragoon]

All this talk about lightning makes me want to pit Enel against the Avatarverse.

[Dio Brando]

Explain to me why Avatar lightning is slower other than the fact that the animation does not emphasize speed. As for your bandits argument I'm assuming you're talking about the earth bending bandits, the audience didn't seem the most attentive, the only commentary we got from them is"hit him with the left" when it was sword fight in the first place. And Feitan, can you react to lightning, if you can? *applause* The only reason you can't grasp the fact that they can react to lightning is because you just can't accept the fact that your favorite character known for his speed can't $p33d!#iTZ his way through this. So I suggest calming yourself down and thinking about how the OBD works before you post something you'll regret.

It seems like feats in the OBD count when it involves Zorro cutting Cannonballs and from that you figure out the speed of every OP char from that. But when it involves someone reacting to lightning, and you post that as a feat suddenly lightning is slower in that universe, and you get called an avatard for judging a fight by OBD rules.
In One Piece's case it's ok because Enel is made of lightning himself, he IS lightning. Unlike Avatar, OP has many examples of superspeed which makes it consistent.

If Avatar lightning was real, it would be incredibly inconsistent with the speed shown by Avatar characters. Nothing else suggests they can move anywhere near fast enough.

COUGH COUGH

[Banhammer]

You know, naruto speed is that inconsitant too, or else kakashi would not have any trouble catching deidara...
Fastest feat by ps sasuke is flying through trees, but he still got tricked by FOUR people at the same time switching their bodies by tree trunks so fast he with sharingan couldn't tell.
while zuko can react to lightning, and azula can shoot hit much much faster than sasuke can charge chidori..

[~Shin~]

Just to throw it out there, lightning is around half the speed of light. Approximately 90,000 miles per second. It is entirely not plausible to assume that Avatar characters can react to such a level of speed because it's completely inconsistent with the rest of the series when the fastest characters have yet to even go as fast as a car let alone relativistic speeds.

As for the fight, Sasuke can easily speedblitz both of them in a matter of seconds and defeat them with taijutsu alone.

[Dio Brando]

You know, naruto speed is that inconsitant too, or else kakashi would not have any trouble catching deidara...
Fastest feat by ps sasuke is flying through trees, but he still got tricked by FOUR people at the same time switching their bodies by tree trunks so fast he with sharingan couldn't tell.
while zuko can react to lightning, and azula can shoot hit much much faster than sasuke can charge chidori..

Deidara's flight never seemed fast. And Sasuke has many feats of moving faster than the superhuman eye can see, including moving as fast as weightless Lee.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sasuke doesn't need to use ninjutsu to end this fight. A kunai will do.

We've been through the lightning thing, and I already mentioned that Naruto's Raiton's aren't consistent to real life either.

[Tash]

Tell me does the OBD still judge the outcome of fights by feats? If it does then Azula and Zuko win, the only thing that was ever considered in this debate was Sasuke charging and stabbing them with a kunai. I posted a feat that none of you managed to top with any of sasuke's. If this Battledome judges from the pictures in one series looking faster than the other than sasuke speedblitzes as you say. As for your bandit argument that would go under the "the creator doesn't have to apply physics rule" If you want to see another speed feat from avatar, aang, who has fought many tough fights against Zuko has easily blocked arrows coming from the yu yan archers a sniping force famed for being able to pin a fly to a tree from a hundred yards away without killing it. (No I'm not making that up. I'll post a link) If you guys want to see episodes I'll post links of the as well, I seriously think you should rewatch some episodes before you post. You see to think I'm an avatard but I have not posted anything that has not been shown in canon. So unless you guys can prove with examples that avatar lightning is slow or sasuke is fast enough to outspeed those reflexes I'm done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Nation
you'll find a link to the part about the yu yan archers in the contents table. I'll post some key episodes later.

[Tash]

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v925768rdxqj93J?searchId=9185068264073260141&rank=3
Iroh redirects lightning at the end of the episode. I don't care if it's long watch it.

[~Shin~]

Again refer to the fact that lightning goes at around 90,000 miles per second. Do you know why it's contradictory with the rest of the show? Because Zuko and Azula have been hit by peak humans who's speed wouldn't exceed 15 m/s (This is peak human) at best. I think you can see the colossal difference in speed between 15 meters per second and 90,000 miles per second.

[Tash]

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v92642975HNwDcH?searchId=6364329989332751691&rank=0
The yu yan archer episode since I'm sure you all thought this was fabricated out of fanboyism.

[Dio Brando]

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v92642975HNwDcH?searchId=6364329989332751691&rank=0
The yu yan archer episode since I'm sure you all thought this was fabricated out of fanboyism.

I remember that episode. You're paranoid.

And as ~Shin~ explained and you subsequently ignored, there is a massive difference between the speed of lightning and arrows. Inconsistency, you see.

[Tash]

As far as anyone knows zoro is just a normal human but he has been agreed to move far faster than I'm even trying to imply that avatar characters move. No one says that "Zorro is just a peak human" when he stomps all types of beast in the OBD.

[Orion]

As far as anyone knows zoro is just a normal human but he has been agreed to move far faster than I'm even trying to imply that avatar characters move. No one says that "Zorro is just a peak human" when he stomps all types of beast in the OBD.

Cause zoro shows above human speed,like when he completely disapears over 20 meters in front of bounty hunters,or when he fights supersonic people like kaku and near matches them in speed,azula and zuko have no feats like that.

[Dio Brando]

As far as anyone knows zoro is just a normal human but he has been agreed to move far faster than I'm even trying to imply that avatar characters move. No one says that "Zorro is just a peak human" when he stomps all types of beast in the OBD.

Thats because he isn't a "peak human" . He has constantly displayed both superspeed and the ability to tag people with superspeed. Nevermind the superstrength and superdurability....

Oh and the argument that you just made is called a red herring and is a fallacy.

[Tash]

If you are going to ignore feats in the battledome then I don't see any point argueing if you don't listen to reason and dodge facts.

[Orion]

If you are going to ignore feats in the battledome then I don't see any point argueing if you don't listen to reason and dodge facts.

What feats are we ignoring?magical lightning being dodged?that happens in nearly every manga ever that involves lightning and avatars just like others magical lightning never goes at the real speed of lightning,the one ignoring facts is you,normal humans watch them fight until you can explain that away avatar characters arent superhuman speedwise.

[Banhammer]

Well, "sp33dbl1tz!!11!" happens in every manga too.... I think it was an artistic exageration because I have never saw a good reason for ninjas use of supernatural speed either.

[Orion]

Well, "sp33dbl1tz!!11!" happens in every manga too.... I think it was an artistic exageration because I have never saw a good reason for ninjas use of supernatural speed either.

This is one of the most retarded arguments iv ever heard,it doesnt matter what you think is reasonable it matters whats shown,sasuke can speedblitz people faster then zuko and azula.

[Dio Brando]

Well, "sp33dbl1tz!!11!" happens in every manga too.... I think it was an artistic exageration because I have never saw a good reason for ninjas use of supernatural speed either.

They have supernatural strength, durability and such, why not superspeed?

Even though it's stylized, that doesn't mean it's not valid.

[Tash]

What feats are we ignoring?magical lightning being dodged?that happens in nearly every manga ever that involves lightning and avatars just like others magical lightning never goes at the real speed of lightning,the one ignoring facts is you,normal humans watch them fight until you can explain that away avatar characters arent superhuman speedwise.

w/e man if you think Sasuke still wins gloat about it. I don't see any point in continuing to argue.

Lol at Senko being a Narutard.

[Banhammer]

But why do they have it? Are ninjas connected to ninjaforce, were they droped in a barrel of radioactive sake, or how?

[Orion]

But why do they have it? Are ninjas connected to ninjaforce, were they droped in a barrel of radioactive sake, or how?

Chakra its their ninjaforce.

[Manwë Súlimo]

I think, when it all comes down to it, this is a debate on fictional characters. With fictional abilities. We'll never know for sure.

If someone (meaning everyone, in this case) has determined that one side wins, at this point it's clear that no argument either side reiterates will convince the other side. Any more posts on this topic are pointless now. Stop the flaming and used your typing somewhere else.

(And sorry for my flame earlier, feitan. Yes, I am an Avatard, and I got defensive on this. But then, that's why I'm recommending this stop. People are taking it too personal)

[Banhammer]

damn, I want somez o'that ninjaforce.

[Kai]

A great number of pro Avatar members in here are operating under the pure fallacy that Azula can track Sasuke like a sniper on a sloth.

Yes, any fodder chuunin can wipe out any towns and tribes on speedblitz (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=29923) as the lone factor.

What good is a trump card if you can't even aim it in the right direction? A man that can well disappear beyond your visual capability?

Azula has lightning, that's one hell of a whoop de doo. Try landing the attack on something other than rocks and bushes first.