View Full Version : Multiverse and God
There are some theories that our Universe is not the only one (for example read here (http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.html)). My point: in a set of all possible universes the probability of an omnipresent god existing is 1 or close to 1. But if he is omnipresent wouldn't that mean he's present in/contains all other universes, including ours? This seems kinda contradictory (god coming to existence in one universe thus he appears in all others) but I'm not sure. What do you think?
Juubi
07-03-2007, 05:21 PM
There are so many possibilities that become present when multiverses are introduced. It could be possible for him to exist and not exist at the same time. There are many things out there that are far beyond our comprehension.
Tokoyami
07-03-2007, 06:05 PM
It might be possible for a being many singularities above us to exist in that fashion. However I highly doubt Ey'd act like the gods you know.
Saria19
07-04-2007, 12:40 AM
I think that there are multi-verses and all under one god. These alternate verses are different in that they are different ways we could have been or different choices we could have made.
Juubi
07-04-2007, 12:53 AM
It might be possible for a being many singularities above us to exist in that fashion. However I highly doubt Ey'd act like the gods you know.
Well, if that was true, then there's probably one out of them that's like that creepy kid that used to live down the street and nobody talked to because all he used to talk about was his ant farm and his insect collection due to the fact that he didn't have a life. Yep, that one's God. Little fucking nerd.
Multi-verse theories are speculations.
Tokoyami
07-04-2007, 03:12 AM
Well, if that was true, then there's probably one out of them that's like that creepy kid that used to live down the street and nobody talked to because all he used to talk about was his ant farm and his insect collection due to the fact that he didn't have a life. Yep, that one's God. Little fucking nerd.HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY ANTS!!!!
Die heathen!!!!
And thats not what I really meant.....
Yasha
07-04-2007, 03:14 AM
Multi-verse theories are speculations.
At least it's a scientific theory, god is not even scientific.
Tokoyami
07-04-2007, 03:18 AM
Might be speculation however it's based upon theories that are being tested and personally to me it makes a hell lot more sense then anything the bble states.
Might be speculation however it's based upon theories that are being tested and personally to me it makes a hell lot more sense then anything the bble states.
Lol no. Who said that?
Critics claim that these theories lack empirical correlation and testability, and without hard physical evidence are unfalsifiable; outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove; and therefore more mathematically theoretical and metaphysical than scientific in nature.
Claims of the existance of a multiverse are conjecture, not theory. We haven't even properly studied quantum physics, and we are already delving into other realms of existance? Haven't even defined what a dimension is...
Still, it's not impossible.
I do believe in the multiverse idea, but my idea about how it functions is less pretty. This is a belief- I don't have evidence to support the claim, but it makes sense to me.
In my view (consider this to precede any sentence)
Our physical universe is an amalgamation of different physical laws, minor and vital. All of this universe (minus singularities like black holes) operate on the same vital laws. That's not to say it's perfect- black holes are the result of a contradiction or flaw in a vital law, and so they are singled out- time around them slows to nothing (actually, it's just that the entropy of the space around them increases to such an amount that it appears to slow time, to anyone near a black hole, it would be like looking down an infinitely long tunnel in four dimensions), and the flaw is contained. It is then sent, or pushed, into another seperate universe that operates differently enough that it's laws don't conflict with the flaw.
Minor laws could be responsible for the multiple dimensions that permeate quantum theory. Basically, our universe is like a several uneven cloths layered one over the other. The minor laws do not conflict, they overlap.
Other universes would operate differently from ours. For example, some might only operate on one or two unique vital laws. A one dimensional kind of universe. You could break it down further, where a universe could amount to nothing more than an independent function. Some might be full of mistakes and flaws, and so they systematically purge themselves, just a mess of chaos. Other universes might operate on conditions we can't imagine.
Yeah, so laugh at my ignorance of higher level physics, but this is just what I think.
So, what would the implications be? That god or some other being may have purposefully or inadvertently created a flaw that led to the universe's birth. Or it may have been a natural occurrence, like the tide coming in.
Multi-verse theories are speculations.
Well for one they're natural extension of Copernicus' idea (Earth is not in the center of universe, we're living on an averange star in an averange galaxy etc) and for second it's the only explanation we have why physical constans allow life (and some of them seem very fine tuned). Read the link in 1st post, it's not purely speculation.
Chiyo
07-04-2007, 09:20 AM
I don't understand the possibility of a multi-verse.
The universe is defined as everything in existance, is it not?
If so, how can you have another one? Surely this second universe, because it is exists, would be part of the first universe?
lol thanks string theory....
Freiza
07-04-2007, 01:26 PM
But if he is omnipresent wouldn't that mean he's present in/contains all other universes, including ours?
yes
This seems kinda contradictory (god coming to existence in one universe thus he appears in all others)
how?
but I'm not sure. What do you think?
He's present in all, meaning he created them all.
Firedraconian
07-04-2007, 01:34 PM
But if he is omnipresent wouldn't that mean he's present in/contains all other universes, including ours?
yes
This seems kinda contradictory (god coming to existence in one universe thus he appears in all others)
how?
but I'm not sure. What do you think?
He's present in all, meaning he created them all.
How arrogant of you. It could just as easily be true that your god is not present in any of them, or that he is present in some but not others. Don't assert things like that when you don't have any idea if you're right or wrong.
Rather, it would be more likely in a multiverse that there would be infinite possibilities, meaning that universes would exist with one god, no god, many gods, godlike humans, godlike lizards, human lizards, and some strange combination of the above.
Thus, some worlds may have been created by gods, some by natural forces, some by natural forces that created gods, some by gods that created natural forces, etc etc.
Rather, it would be more likely in a multiverse that there would be infinite possibilities, meaning that universes would exist with one god, no god, many gods, godlike humans, godlike lizards, human lizards, and some strange combination of the above.
But how does that cope with the "omnipresence"? What if it'd be like this:
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1725/beztytuutq5.png
We have universes A, B and C. In C god creates the exact copy of "multiverse" X. Is he "present" in all of X'?
Firedraconian
07-04-2007, 01:51 PM
First, it is perfectly reasonable for an otherwise omnipresent deity to only be omnipresent in his own universe. Likewise, there is no reason for omnipresence to cross universes. This does not mean it is impossible. There may be a deity or group of deities who rule over several universes at once.
But, by the assumption that a universe can exist with an omnipresent deity, there must also be a universe that exists without one.
Really, I personally find omnipresence doubtful in this way. Christianity, to pick a religion at random, tends to contradict this. For example, I was speaking with one the other day about the nature of evil, and he said that his god did not create evil, but that evil is the absence of god, like how cold is the absence of heat. Which would naturally cause me to wonder about an omnipresent god who is not omnipresent.
But that aside, a better question then a single god who is omnipresent would be two different gods in two different universes who are both omnipresent and omnipotent, but have different wills and desires. What would happen if they, previously separated, suddenly met? All-powerful meets all-powerful? Two omnipresent deities? It boggles the mind.
First, it is perfectly reasonable for an otherwise omnipresent deity to only be omnipresent in his own universe. Likewise, there is no reason for omnipresence to cross universes. This does not mean it is impossible. There may be a deity or group of deities who rule over several universes at once.
Well it's not really "omni" then.
But that aside, a better question then a single god who is omnipresent would be two different gods in two different universes who are both omnipresent and omnipotent, but have different wills and desires. What would happen if they, previously separated, suddenly met? All-powerful meets all-powerful? Two omnipresent deities? It boggles the mind.
Wrong forum, http://forums.narutofan.com/forumdisplay.php?f=97 :P
Firedraconian
07-04-2007, 07:06 PM
Well it's not really "omni" then.
Sorry, I don't know the appropriate Latin prefix for "everywhere in this universe and possibly others, but not present in all of the universes that comprise the infinite possibility of quantum fluctuation". ;)
Tokoyami
07-04-2007, 08:51 PM
Lol no. Who said that?It's been mathematically proven thats what I meant. It's also been proven by several theories.
Esponer
07-04-2007, 09:01 PM
There are some theories that our Universe is not the only one (for example read here (http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.html)). My point: in a set of all possible universes the probability of an omnipresent god existing is 1 or close to 1. But if he is omnipresent wouldn't that mean he's present in/contains all other universes, including ours? This seems kinda contradictory (god coming to existence in one universe thus he appears in all others) but I'm not sure. What do you think?
Read Plantinga's (futile) defence of the ontological argument by means of 'maximal greatness' — it attempts to prove the existence of god by using an argument similar to this one.
The problem is that most definitions of god don't discuss an entity contained within any subset of everything, but that god is the maker of everything. That is to say, that if there are a number of discrete sections of everything ("universes"), the probability of god having made any one is the same as the probability that he made any of the others, because god would be the maker of all of them by definition.
The argument really doesn't do anything useful.
It's been mathematically proven thats what I meant. It's also been proven by several theories.
Mathematically yeah, proven by theories? no. Theories don't prove anything if they did they won't be theories but Laws.
Don't get me wrong I'm not refuting anything, I just feel that discussing speculations as if they are facts is a waste of time.
Esponer
07-05-2007, 11:10 AM
I know that the temptation now is to discuss how theories can be proven and yet still be called theories, but can we sidestep that? Theories suggesting a multiverse do all lack proof, they're basically all conjecture.
Also Tokoyami, when you said "mathematically proven", are you certain you're not confusing mathematical theories suggesting many dimensions with many universes? I'm pretty sure there aren't any convincing mathematical methods suggesting many universes, but there are some attempts to resolve problems in modern physics which end up suggesting many dimensions (while "mathematical", these are hardly proven — especially as there are at least three different numbers of dimensions that come out of that line of thought).
drache
07-05-2007, 12:24 PM
Espooner there is 1 theory I know of involving multiverse but it is only a theortical construct there is no evidence. However as I understand it there is some mathitcial proof for it.
Esponer
07-05-2007, 12:32 PM
Quite possibly: I can't claim to know everything out there modern physics theory, not even for a moment. It seems quite commonly known that mathematics can be used in dubious ways to suggest that there are multiple spatial dimensions sitting around doing not very much, so I thought it possible Tokoyami was thinking of that.
The Fourth Hokage
07-05-2007, 02:19 PM
There are some theories that our Universe is not the only one (for example read here (http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.html)). My point: in a set of all possible universes the probability of an omnipresent god existing is 1 or close to 1. But if he is omnipresent wouldn't that mean he's present in/contains all other universes, including ours? This seems kinda contradictory (god coming to existence in one universe thus he appears in all others) but I'm not sure. What do you think?
The problem with your reasoning is that you assume that God has come into existence in a particular universe. When understanding God you must understand that God is He who creates yet is uncreated. God created the universe (or possibly the multiverse). God's existence predates the creation of the multiverse and therefore He did not come into existence in one. Your problem regarding his omnipresence is thus resolved.
There are so many possibilities that become present when multiverses are introduced. It could be possible for him to exist and not exist at the same time. There are many things out there that are far beyond our comprehension.
It is impossible for anything to exist and not exist at the same time. This is known as the principle of non-contradiction.
drache
07-05-2007, 02:23 PM
Quite possibly: I can't claim to know everything out there modern physics theory, not even for a moment. It seems quite commonly known that mathematics can be used in dubious ways to suggest that there are multiple spatial dimensions sitting around doing not very much, so I thought it possible Tokoyami was thinking of that.
Well to be honest I don't know much more about the theory other then that it exists and apparently has some mathematical backing. It's not really an area I study nor care to study.
Freiza
07-05-2007, 04:08 PM
How arrogant of you. It could just as easily be true that your god is not present in any of them, or that he is present in some but not others. Don't assert things like that when you don't have any idea if you're right or wrong.
are you an ....man NVM, he said is God present in all of them, i said yes, how arrogant of you to call my opinion arrogant. And if he created all universes, why wouldnt he be present in them all?
Rather, it would be more likely in a multiverse that there would be infinite possibilities, meaning that universes would exist with one god, no god, many gods, godlike humans, godlike lizards, human lizards, and some strange combination of the above.
WTH are you going on about? where do all the animal gods come in? Nobody believes in those any more, im sure, you try to appease to many people.
Thus, some worlds may have been created by gods, some by natural forces, some by natural forces that created gods, some by gods that created natural forces, etc etc.
WHICH WORLDS???
At least it's a scientific theory, god is not even scientific.
of course not, Science cannot begin to describe God.
Esponer
07-05-2007, 04:14 PM
of course not, Science cannot begin to describe God.
Agreed. An entity needs at least some foundation in human reason and at least some empirical evidence supporting its existence to be described by science.
Freiza
07-06-2007, 11:50 AM
Agreed. An entity needs at least some foundation in human reason and at least some empirical evidence supporting its existence to be described by science.true, i agree, though other people will beg to differ. and some people just find the need to try to classify what they don't understand, or what they want to understand...and so they turn to science, and if it can't be proven by science...it's not real.....:/
Esponer
07-06-2007, 12:07 PM
Is it not the territory of theism to attempt to classify what they do not understand? God is a construct that attempts to neatly understand a universe which defies reason: belief in a god is essentially the original argument from ignorance.
The Fourth Hokage
07-06-2007, 05:04 PM
did this turn from a discussion which answers a request to reconcile God's existence with the potential for multiple universes to a debate on whether or not God exists?
Tokoyami
07-06-2007, 07:28 PM
Science cannot begin to describe God.Yeah sceince doesn't expalin the nonexistant.
What I was trying to say was that in string and m-theories and things like them they essentially exist within 10 or 11 dimensional spaces that are then used to solve problems and such for equations in quantum mechanics and other things that exist within our own universe.......ugghh I'll have to continue later I'm under alot of stress and am about ready to throttle the nearest living thing.....
Freiza
07-08-2007, 01:57 AM
Is it not the territory of theism to attempt to classify what they do not understand? God is a construct that attempts to neatly understand a universe which defies reason: belief in a god is essentially the original argument from ignorance.
The universe defies reason. the fact that we're supposed to believe that we live on a ball in the middle of a dark black galaxy is quite insane. have you seen ou of this world? with your own two eyes?
the same with Jesus..it's all faith..no ifs or buts about it.
Yeah sceince doesn't expalin the nonexistant.
clever
What I was trying to say was that in string and m-theories and things like them they essentially exist within 10 or 11 dimensional spaces that are then used to solve problems and such for equations in quantum mechanics and other things that exist within our own universe.......ugghh I'll have to continue later I'm under alot of stress and am about ready to throttle the nearest living thing.....
science is for those who can't comprehend God...therefore they feel God is not real :)
drache
07-08-2007, 02:03 AM
science is for those who can't comprehend God...therefore they feel God is not real :)
I think you don't know that something like 70+% of scienctist believe in some form of god? Even if it is deists or theist.
Freiza
07-11-2007, 06:17 AM
I think you don't know that something like 70+% of scienctist believe in some form of god? Even if it is deists or theist.
some sort of god, is not the one true God.
though i see where you'll head with this and ask me that i don't think science is real, or some silly question like that.
ill just go ahead and say without God sience is not possible.
drache
07-11-2007, 11:41 AM
According to you science wouldn't exist without god.
However I've yet to hear any religion claim that offically so personally I think you're going off the deep end here.
Further I've yet to hear god make that claim.
Now if you want to agrue indirectly then according to your beliefs you may have a point.
And it's not silly to ask you if you think science is real, especially given your lack of understanding key concepts in it.
Freiza
07-13-2007, 11:32 AM
According to you science wouldn't exist without god.
true
However I've yet to hear any religion claim that offically so personally I think you're going off the deep end here.
nope, God invented us, we invented sciences
Further I've yet to hear god make that claim.
right..the fact that he created the world is proof enough
Now if you want to agrue indirectly then according to your beliefs you may have a point.
directly..i still have points :)
And it's not silly to ask you if you think science is real, especially given your lack of understanding key concepts in it.
very dumb, it is silly
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.