Trial Tournament- Round 1, Match 3- Id vs. Distracted [Archive]

Kyon

06-21-2007, 09:21 PM

Location- Temple of Fire

Rules:

1. Vote on the clear victor and it is required you state why they would in. Votes will be voided if there is no explanation, or spam.
2. Only 1 vote allowed. If later you are persuaded by someone and choose to vote for the other team, then only that vote will count.
3. No Plot No Jutsu. (Naruto doesn’t defeat Kakuzu, Sasori, and everyone just because Kishimoto won’t let him die.)
4. No filler jutsu’s. (We're letting TenTen have her crossbow.)
5. No Giant or Boss summons except for Kakashi (Pakkun), Temari (Beaver thing), Kido (Spider), Tayuya (3 Monster things.)
6. KWGoD, Aoba, Mecha Hidan and the Gai hype (Chuck Norris type hype) not allowed. Otherwise, one could have all 3 on their team and own EVERYONE. Please try and be serious and just go off their skills
7. Experience of fighting WITH or AGAINST ninja's are in play. (I.E. if you choose Kiba-Shino-Hinata, they may work better since they are a team and know eachother's strengths and weaknesses. Or... Kakuzu will know to fight Hidan from a great distance since he doesn't want his blood drawn, and because they are partners. Hidan will have an advantage of characters who don't know of his ability). EXPERIENCE IS ONLY IN AFFECT FROM CHAPTER 358 AND BEFORE.
8. No Prep Time. (Besides the 60 second strategy run-down you give them prior to the match starting)
9. It’s a team fight. Team vs. Team
10. If caught bribing for votes or cheating (making aliases), you will be disqualified from the tournament.

Teams

Id
Deus Ex

Old Sarutobi - 25
Tsunade - 25
Pre-Skip Kakashi - 20

Distracted
Team Lionized

Kakuzu - 40
Old Sarutobi -25
Base Kidomaru - 4
Oboro - 1

Distracted

06-21-2007, 09:39 PM

I like Id's team... I feel bad that I have to destroy it so early.

The temptation everyone has to resist is to say the 2 Sarutobi's cancel out. That's a lame strategy and my team would never sacrifice such strong characters that way.

Sarutobi would attack Kakashi with Oboro using his Kasumi Jūsha no Jutsu to give the image of HUNDREDS of him. He would do this to throw kunai and to give back up to Sarutobi. Kido would try to stay out of the way of the fight and only cast the web to slow Kakashi down. With the web on the floor and such Kakashi won't be able to use Chidori without getting caught up in it.

Kakuzu with his Doton armor and his superior speed combined with his other masks is more than enough to keep Tsunade and Sarutobi at bay.

Tsunade would be a pure brute force fighter and would have very little of an answer against Kakuzu. The elemental jutsu would cancel out Sarutobi's awesome jutsu as well.

After Kakashi falls, Sarutobi, Kido, and Oboro would then provide the back up that Kakuzu needs. They would focus on the other Sarutobi first and keep him at try to destroy him and Kakuzu is far more than enough to destroy Tsunade on his own.

Genis-Vell

06-21-2007, 10:16 PM

Here is an idea. Why not introduce Keollyn style ballot for the match?

Process
Highlight the winner.
Give your reasons why.
And quote it.

(This is only necessary for the ballot. You can continue to debate with out the ballot).

Id vs. Distracted
___________________________
Comment/Reason:

Well I certainly do not believe this is rape, stomp or even a match in favor of Distracted.

First off, Base Kidomaru and Oboro are none factors. Kage Shadow Clones from Sarutobi or KK would be enough to end their life’s prematurely.

Its essentially Kazuko + Old Sarutobi vs. Old Sarutobi, + Tsusnade, + Kakahi.

I am going to ignore or put off: Canceling out characters (I was one of the pioneers in this >_>).

And believe my Sarutobi would take on Kazuko, While Tsunade would take on Sarutobi.
Depending on who Kakashi backs up (and Kakashi is a great back up). Kakashi would break the tension . And thus make this match of 3 vs. 1 in my favor.

Lets not forget, that my team is willing enough to cooperate with each other.
While Distracted morale seems kind of low. >_>

____________________________

Esponer

06-21-2007, 10:17 PM

The techniques Oboro and Kidōmaru have available to them are impressive and it would be foolish to disregard them immediately. However, none of Sarutobi (The Third Hokage), Tsunade (The Fifth Hokage) and Kakashi (Konohagakure's most famous jōnin and a Sharingan user) would be even threatened by Oboro's genjutsu, and I believe they would see right through them. Kidōmaru's techniques are dangerous, but he is not high enough calibre and any of his three opponents would have minimal difficulty avoiding his traps and offensives and defeating him somewhat casually, at best leaving a minor opening.

In brief, Kakuzu is facing three of his least favourite opponents. Sarutobi can nullify his elemental techniques with jutsu shō, denying him of his most important advantage. Tsunade's gōwan power will easily penetrate the kurogane karada and, the one time we've seen Tsunade attack an open she continued to attack rather violently: I do not see Kakuzu's five hearts coming into play here, rather I see his body being terrorised nearly beyond repair and certainly beyond speedy repair, if Tsunade is able to succeed in an offensive. Kakashi's raikiri still has the power to pierce the kurogane karada, leaving Kakuzu even more vulnerable.

The two Sarutobi either cancel out, leaving Kakuzu battling Tsunade or Kakashi, or we must consider which side can make better use of Sarutobi. After reading Distracted's strategy, I would conclude that Id has the superior Sarutobi in this situation. Jutsu shō is the natural counter to Kakuzu, whereas it may only be used by Distracted to respond to raikiri or the other Sarutobi's techniques: essentially, Tsunade's preference towards augmented taijutsu which I do not believe jutsu shō wil be effective against means that Distracted's Sarutobi loses a little bit of value. Further, Id's team is entirely Konohagakure shinobi who have call to knowing how to work together.

For the sake of argument therefore, I will cancel the two Sarutobi. I am doing this because I believe Id's is more of a threat, and I believe Id would be victorious if the Sarutobi on both sides were removed.

Tsunade and Kakashi versus Kakuzu, roughly speaking (we're noting that the former team has the advantage of a more useful Sarutobi and the latter has one potential minor opening caused by destroying Kidōmaru or avoiding his attacks). With her gōwan power, her offensive medical techniques and her healing, Tsunade can keep herself on the field, keep Kakashi on the field, and take Kakuzu down with one essentially one attack. I see some heavy devastation from an irritated tsūtenkyaku (painful sky leg), Kakashi using the opportunity to disappear underground and follow with an ultimately unsuccessful doton: shinjū zanshu performed by a kage bunshin while Kakashi remains underground, Tsunade narrowly evading Kakuzu's threads and very possibly channeling some nasty anti-healing through them, and the two Konohagakure shinobi eventually getting an opening on Kakuzu.

If an elemental technique gets off and hits, Tsunade will heal what she can and, if need be, use sōzō saisei. If absolutely necessary to use everything she has, Tsunade will not lose to Kakuzu. Kakuzu's kurogane karada is why he is so dangerous, and to Tsunade it is irrelevant.

Both teams are as powerful as each other, but Sarutobi-Tsunade-Kakashi has a strategic advantage Kakuzu-Sarutobi does not, Sarutobi will play better on the former side, Tsunade is a very bad opponent for Kakuzu, as is Sarutobi, and Kakashi is the worst threat Kakuzu has in his cost tier. Distracted has been extremely unfortunate.

I should note I did not mention terrain, as I cannot decide whether it would give either side any advantage. If it's inside, slight advantage to Id: Kakuzu would be most dangerous at the Valley of the End, in my opinion.

Vote: Id (preliminary)

Distracted

06-21-2007, 10:22 PM

You vastly underestimate the number of bunshins that Oboro makes. Naruto is the kage bunshin master and he couldn't out do it. Don't give me that crap. Oboro is the perfect distraction.

You gave no reasons why Sarutobi would be able to out do Kakuzu, and nothing Sarutobi has shown SHOULD be able to take him out. Tsunade as well.

He is also faster than both of them. Kakashi's Chidori being able to penetrate his Doton armor is the ONLY thing that would pose a threat to him... which is why I'd have the rest of my team triple team Kakashi.

Now here is where I'm offended at what you said. what do you mean my team wouldn't work well together?

Kidomaru and Kakuzu are bother hired hands. They are VERY good at working with whoever happens to come along. Sarutobi has almost as much experience as Kakuzu and thus would be able to adapt to his situations as they present themselves... and Oboro is there mostly for bunshin back up and the occasional well placed Kunai. Nothing more nothing less.

Kido's webs and Oboro's bunshins are meant for pure back up. Pre-skip-Kakashi has shown nothing to place himself on the level of Sarutobi.

Kakuzu is more than capable of holding Tsunade and Sarutobi off while waiting for back up.

My vote is obviously for myself :wtf

***edit***

Esponer you're incorrect if you write off the genjutsu so quickly. It's only a huge number of bunshins that keep reappearing. No one has shown the ability to ignore bunshins... just merely see THROUGH them. however, Sasuke ( a sharingan user), Naruto (kage bunshin master) and Kabuto (a genjutsu/medic nin on the level of Kakashi) were incapable of over coming it... only out lasting it.

Don't write my trump card off so quickly.

Also as long as Kakashi doesn't land a chidori (which I believe an Old sarutobi plus kido and oboro should be capable of doing) Kakuzu has his doton armor. A full on meat-tank choji was useless in front of it.

You also underestimate the strength of Kakuzu. While I willingly admit that Tsunade should be able to land a harder punch than Kakuzu... Kakuzu has the armor to help fend it off. He'd merely be knocked back.

Add in that he obviously will have knowledge of the opponents (mmm bounties) and he will not underestimate them.

Sarutobi can match Kakuzu in elemental jutsu I'm sure... but not the chakra or stamina. Tsunade can match Kakuzu in strength, but not the speed or jutsu.

and neither can even come close to matching him in speed. He DEFINITELY was faster than Kakashi and was able to use Shunsin quite effectively.

These are people that are incapable of overcoming Kakuzu unless they straight up outlast him.

so unless you feel Kakashi could out maneuver or defeat Kido and his webs, Oboro and his number of bunshins, and Old Sarutobi combined... then I don't see how Id can win.

The back up will be arriving to support Kakuzu, not the other way around.

Esponer

06-21-2007, 10:38 PM

You vastly underestimate the number of bunshins that Oboro makes. Naruto is the kage bunshin master and he couldn't out do it. Don't give me that crap. Oboro is the perfect distraction.
I did not underestimate the quantity of bunshin Oboro would produce: I made no comment as to that quantity. Oboro, and any quantity of bunshin, would very likely be defeated within the opening seconds, say by a kage bunshin of Sarutobi using katon: karyū endan, or simply having a *-bunshin use jutsu shō (inexpensively as genjutsu has a low chakra cost) and then slaughtering Oboro with taijutsu . Quantity of bunshin are irrelevant: Oboro is a genin and I would frankly be surprised if he could even move in the presence of legendary jōnin.

You gave no reasons why Sarutobi would be able to out do Kakuzu, and nothing Sarutobi has shown SHOULD be able to take him out. Tsunade as well.
I gave no reasons for why Sarutobi would be able to defeat Kakuzu because I was not interested in demonstrating that Sarutobi would be able to defeat Kakuzu, because I do not believe that Sarutobi would be able to defeat Kakuzu. In the best case scenario for your team we ignore Sarutobi on both sides. Realistically, Id's has an advantage and that would slow Kakuzu's offence as Sarutobi is a ninjutsu master.

Sarutobi has shown no offensive techniques which would defeat Kakuzu, and while I expect he has some I do not expect he could defeat Kakuzu alone. I will also not use the claim that he likely has such a technique, as it's unnecessary.

Tsunade has shown gōwan (her augmented power), which has the force to destroy Kakuzu's kurogane karada. I am not interested in trying to demonstrate this with mathematics derived from feats in the story but I am convinced of this. Further, ranshinshō would utterly end the day for Kakuzu. Worse yet, Kakuzu's mechanism of attacking with threads puts him at an unquantified risk as he is attacking with his primary body part against a medical shinobi: Tsunade has a decent chance of being able to attack from this. Lastly, Kakashi has raikiri and excellent support to perform it. Kakuzu has absolutely everything against him.

He is also faster than both of them. Kakashi's Chidori being able to penetrate his Doton armor is the ONLY thing that would pose a threat to him... which is why I'd have the rest of my team triple team Kakashi.
Kakuzu's greatest speed feat was shunshin, which Kakashi could've done to himself if he assumed the other him was dead. Kakashi made a strategic error and left an opening which Kakuzu abused with shunshin and a massive attack courtesy of kurogane karada's boost to attacking power. Kakuzu is likely a little faster than Kakashi, and Tsunade is likely of a similar speed to Kakashi. Kakuzu won't be blitzing either of them, however.

As I said, Tsunade has at least two very important ways to harm Kakuzu. Also, if you seriously intend to set everyone on Kakashi you will lose embarrassingly. At best you'll take Kakashi out, but you'll definitely lose Kakuzu in the process and from then onwards it's obvious who's going to win: Id.

Now here is where I'm offended at what you said. what do you mean my team wouldn't work well together?
Tsunade was trained from her youth by Sarutobi: they know each other's abilities extremely well. Kakashi is high-ranking in Konohagakure and very likely knows quite a lot about Tsunade, and more about Sarutobi. The three have probably worked together in various combinations at various points, they know each other's abilities, and they have overlap in fighting styles (Sarutobi and Kakashi favour foils and would catch on to each other's strategies very well).

Kidomaru and Kakuzu are bother hired hands. They are VERY good at working with whoever happens to come along. Sarutobi has almost as much experience as Kakuzu and thus would be able to adapt to his situations as they present themselves... and Oboro is there mostly for bunshin back up and the occasional well placed Kunai. Nothing more nothing less.
There is no evidence that Kidōmaru is a mercenary. It would appear that he is a loyal minion of Orochimaru, in fact a member of Orochimaru's elite guard. All high-level shinobi are assumed to be very good at improvising strategy with others, but your team cannot compare with Id's team on strategy. That's the end of it.

Kido's webs and Oboro's bunshins are meant for pure back up. Pre-skip-Kakashi has shown nothing to place himself on the level of Sarutobi.
Irrelevant statements if intended as a response to anything I said.

Esponer

06-21-2007, 10:47 PM

Esponer you're incorrect if you write off the genjutsu so quickly. It's only a huge number of bunshins that keep reappearing. No one has shown the ability to ignore bunshins... just merely see THROUGH them. however, Sasuke ( a sharingan user), Naruto (kage bunshin master) and Kabuto (a genjutsu/medic nin on the level of Kakashi) were incapable of over coming it... only out lasting it.
Oboro would be dead before he formed a seal, and in case he wasn't jutsu shō would negate his techniques. In case he got off his bunshin, they would be annihilated by an area of effect attack. All of this assumes Oboro could even move in the presence of these opponents. He could not.

Also as long as Kakashi doesn't land a chidori (which I believe an Old sarutobi plus kido and oboro should be capable of doing) Kakuzu has his doton armor. A full on meat-tank choji was useless in front of it.
And Tsunade's gōwan eclipses Chōji's power one hundredfold. Kurogane karada would be useless in the face of that. Further, ranshinshō and other medical techniques. Kakuzu is not most threatened by Kakashi's attacks: he is obliterated by Tsunade's.

You also underestimate the strength of Kakuzu. While I willingly admit that Tsunade should be able to land a harder punch than Kakuzu... Kakuzu has the armor to help fend it off. He'd merely be knocked back.
Conjecture, differing opinion. Accusing me of underestimating something that I never even evaluated: irrelevant. Kakuzu's power with kurogane karada is impressive. Tsunade is more powerful, very skilled in evasion and won't be dying anytime soon with her healing abilities: Sarutobi and Kakashi are excellent at defending themselves, Sarutobi with barriers and foils and Kakashi with foils and Sharingan-enhanced evasion.

Add in that he obviously will have knowledge of the opponents (mmm bounties) and he will not underestimate them.
As you should know, I assume that all characters will play a perfect game and no underestimation will occur. Kakuzu is outmatched; Tsunade is his worst opponent.

Sarutobi can match Kakuzu in elemental jutsu I'm sure... but not the chakra or stamina. Tsunade can match Kakuzu in strength, but not the speed or jutsu.
True, and Id has more pieces than you. Further, there is more than you are portraying. Tsunade doesn't match Kakuzu in strength, she obliterates him in it. She's not significantly outpaced, and her inferior jutsu involve her not dying. Sarutobi's stamina is an issue for both sides, and as I've concluded earlier Id's has an advantage and Id wins if we ignore Sarutobi, so Id wins.

and neither can even come close to matching him in speed. He DEFINITELY was faster than Kakashi and was able to use Shunsin quite effectively.
Kakashi thought he was dead. Kakashi was foolish. The gorgeously overrated evidence for Kakuzu's amazing speed is that when Kakashi made a mistake and thought Kakuzu was dead, Kakuzu got in one hit.

Ino evaded Kakuzu's elemental techniques.

These are people that are incapable of overcoming Kakuzu unless they straight up outlast him.
Again, there are very few attacking techniques on Id's team that wouldn't kill Kakuzu.

so unless you feel Kakashi could out maneuver or defeat Kido and his webs, Oboro and his number of bunshins, and Old Sarutobi combined... then I don't see how Id can win.
You seem to want to imply that Id's team consists of nobody but Kakashi. Oboro is a non-factor due to a little bit of Sarutobi's chakra, similar for Kidōmaru or else he'll produce at best one minor opening that these three shinobi can survive. The two Sarutobi cancel at best, realistically Id's advantage. Tsunade outclasses Kakuzu going all-out, Kakashi thrown in to aid all-around makes this clearly Id's victory.

Distracted

06-21-2007, 10:48 PM

Re-read the chapter in the forest of death. The number of kage bunshins necessary would be absurd. Also Kabuto, a jonin on the level of Kakashi, was not able to break out of it.

Once again I will ONLY use this on Kakashi in the start. Kakashi is the greatest threat to Kakuzu in my mind cause he could destroy the Doton armor and leave Kakuzu wide open to Tsunades massive punches.

You're theory about the Doton armor being able to be destroyed by Tsunades punches holds little water. Even if it was strong enough to do so, add in that Kakuzu is near here in strength and it becomes irrelevant cause he'd just match her punch. Also he is faster than Tsunade. Tsunade isn't slow, but she has never shown anything similar to Kakashi in speed.

I don't get where you feel she is as fast as Kakashi that makes no sense to me.

The sarutobi's cancelling each other out is NOT the best case scenario for me. That does nothing to help me, in fact all it does is leave Tsunade and Kakashi versus Kakuzu. You also wrote oboro off and said he'd be dead in seconds. His whole ability is based on the fact that you can't figure out where he is and you'd tire yourself out attacking the bunshins.

Legendary Jonin Kakashi wouldn't do any better than Kabuto, Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke at getting out of it.

Also as I said my strategy is to have Kakuzu hold off Tsunade and Sarutobi... not defeat them out right.

He will wait for the others to give him back up and take out the other sarutobi. Sarutobi with the long distance back up of Kido and Oboro should be able to take himself out.

Then those 4 would be there to wipe out Tsunade. Nothing she has says she should be able to defeat Kakuzu.

Kidomaru being a mercenary is questionable i'll give you that... but he's obviously not a native to Suna. Orochimaru had an obsession with bloodlines. At least that's what I took from it... either way he's quite capable of standing back and using his webs to slow people down.

My whole strategy hinges on stopping Kakashi's chidori. the web from Kido should be able to do that... and I don't believe anyone would make an argument that Pre-skip Kakashi could defeat Sarutobi.

***edit***

I'm vastly offended Esponer.

How dare you write off Oboro so quickly and say he'd be dead before he made a seal?

Tsunade, Kakashi, and Sarutobi know nothing about Oboro. Are standing in the face of Kakuzu and Sarutobi... and you're saying their first move would be to take Oboro out?

Even if that absurd conclusion was true... are you saying Kido wouldn't bother merely casting a web which seems to be one of his favorite past times and stopping whoever the person is that would try to take out Oboro?

Remember Kido and Oboro are basically 2 unknowns to the 3 opponents. Kakuzu is known to Tsunade... and Sarutobi is known to all there.

I'd love to hear the absurd logic there.

The Truth

06-21-2007, 10:50 PM

Well, i'm inclined to favor Deus Ex in this one. I think Team Lionized success is heavily reliant on his battle plan working our favorably. I'll explain in detail after considering this further.

EDIT-
Re-read the chapter in the forest of death. The number of kage bunshins necessary would be absurd. Also Kabuto, a jonin on the level of Kakashi, was not able to break out of it.
Or maybe Kabuto didn't want to dispel it? He was undercover at the time...

Distracted

06-21-2007, 10:59 PM

Kasumi jusha no jutsu (Mist servant technique)
Name: Kasumi Jūsha no Jutsu, literally "Mist Servant Technique"
Type: D-rank, supplementary
Users: Oboro
The user creates a large variety of clones that phase in and out of the ground as if they were made of blackish liquid (oil?). The user can then hide the projectiles they throw within the illusory ones that clones throw.

When has ANYONE ever 'broken out' of the illusion of a bunshin? It creates a fake clone of the person there. It's like 'breaking out' of a henge.

the claims that such a feat is possible is without precedent in the manga in any shape way or form.

Esponer

06-21-2007, 11:04 PM

Re-read the chapter in the forest of death. The number of kage bunshins necessary would be absurd. Also Kabuto, a jonin on the level of Kakashi, was not able to break out of it.
Kabuto was maintaining the cover of being a genin throughout this entire period. We cannot use the fact that he was a jōnin for evidence of anything. I am well aware of the number of bunshin Oboro created, and as I said I see three reasons why they would never even be created in the first place (total confidence around 80% that Oboro will never even create these bunshin). If the bunshin are created, I see them being destroyed near enough immediately.

Once again I will ONLY use this on Kakashi in the start. Kakashi is the greatest threat to Kakuzu in my mind cause he could destroy the Doton armor and leave Kakuzu wide open to Tsunades massive punches.On your head be it, because if your team attempts an all-out offensive on Kakashi you will lose Kakuzu in the process.

You're theory about the Doton armor being able to be destroyed by Tsunades punches holds little water. Even if it was strong enough to do so, add in that Kakuzu is near here in strength and it becomes irrelevant cause he'd just match her punch. Also he is faster than Tsunade. Tsunade isn't slow, but she has never shown anything similar to Kakashi in speed.As I've said, I will not post a mathematical justification, but I'm quite confident that estimating the force Tsunade is able to produce would easily demonstrate its capability at penetrating kurogane karada.

Kakuzu does not even approach Tsunade's power even with kurogane karada.

I don't get where you feel she is as fast as Kakashi that makes no sense to me.Extrapolation, primarily. Once Tsunade came into her own and got close range with Orochimaru, she had a complete offensive monopoly. Orochimaru could not move. Now, this does not mean that Orochimaru was outpaced (as the attacks were stunning him), but it indicates to me that Tsunade was definitely not outpaced by Orochimaru. Various other extrapolation leads to me concluding that Tsunade is not slower than Kakashi.

The sarutobi's cancelling each other out is NOT the best case scenario for me. That does nothing to help me, in fact all it does is leave Tsunade and Kakashi versus Kakuzu. You also wrote oboro off and said he'd be dead in seconds. His whole ability is based on the fact that you can't figure out where he is and you'd tire yourself out attacking the bunshins.Oboro would indeed be dead in seconds. Writing him off implies I gave no explanation for this, when I did. You have yet to try to explain why your Sarutobi is more useful than Id's: I'm afraid many of your responses so far have not actually discussed the key issues at all.

Legendary Jonin Kakashi wouldn't do any better than Kabuto, Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke at getting out of it.That is rather ridiculous. Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke were utterly meaningless to Kakashi, and Kabuto was pretending to be a genin. Further, with respect to the bunshin I have responded that they would be destroyed or more likely, Oboro defeated before he uses it. I never made any claim that Kakashi would see through bunshin, although Sasuke says the Sharingan can.

Lastly, I did some research. It wasn't bunshin, it was kasumi jūsha andoboro bunshin. Sasuke's Sharingan detected that these weren't real, none of them, and so Kakashi's certainly could. Also, were these bunshin we'd know the genjutsu automatically succeeded. However, your repeated claims of that in this case are unjustified and we must instead lean towards far higher-level shinobi being unaffected and seeing right through it. But again, leanings aside Kakashi can see right through it.

Also as I said my strategy is to have Kakuzu hold off Tsunade and Sarutobi... not defeat them out right.Also, as I said... nothing about your strategy. Unfortunately you're facing the strongest team possible against your team, and you lose irrespective of your strategy (which has many failures).

My whole strategy hinges on stopping Kakashi's chidori. the web from Kido should be able to do that... and I don't believe anyone would make an argument that Pre-skip Kakashi could defeat Sarutobi.A few flaws here. Firstly, I think you'll find problems getting people to accept that Oboro and Kidōmaru are going to threaten Kakashi, supported by his entire team, even slightly. Secondly, you're dividing the teams and not justifying the divide. Why is Id's Kakashi unsupported? Why have the teams divided into two groups exactly as you've demanded they do?

Thirdly, you think Kakuzu can last against Tsunade and Sarutobi... really there's nothing I can say there. I disagree, and I'm voting that way. But our disagreements aside, you need some proper explanation of how you're doing Kakuzu against Tsunade and Sarutobi totally separate Sarutobi, Kidōmaru and Oboro against a magically totally unsupported Kakashi.

Kasumi jusha no jutsu (Mist servant technique)
Name: Kasumi Jūsha no Jutsu, literally "Mist Servant Technique"
Type: D-rank, supplementary
Users: Oboro
The user creates a large variety of clones that phase in and out of the ground as if they were made of blackish liquid (oil?). The user can then hide the projectiles they throw within the illusory ones that clones throw.

When has ANYONE ever 'broken out' of the illusion of a bunshin? It creates a fake clone of the person there. It's like 'breaking out' of a henge.
And this technique is not a bunshin. Further, the Sharingan is claimed to be able to see bunshin, and Sasuke has seen through Oboro's bunshin with a far inferior Sharingan eye to Kakashi. Lastly, bunshin is ninjutsu.

The technique Oboro uses is genjutsu. There is a grand total of two genjutsu techniques that cannot be countered. Neither are Oboro's.

the claims that such a feat is possible is without precedent in the manga in any shape way or form.
You're claiming that a genjutsu which has been seen through by a genin using inferior Sharingan to someone on the other team is immune to being seen through because a ninjutsu which it is not is immune to being seen through, except by Sharingan users. Of which the other team has one.

Distracted

06-21-2007, 11:16 PM

Esponer

06-21-2007, 11:32 PM

Sasuke DID try to see through the bunshin. Also you forget that while Kabuto was 'playing a genin' he was also trying to guide them through the forest and to a victory.

If he could just 'dispell' this genjutsu (which is merely hundreds of bunshin) he would have done so.
One. Kabuto's priority was to gather information and not to ruin his cover. If he would need to display a higher level than he wished to display, he would not have done so.

Two. The technique is not hundreds of bunshin. Bunshin are ninjutsu, this is a genjutsu. This is a mind-influencing effect which gives the appearance of hundreds of bunshin without the chakra cost. The downside is that genjutsu can be countered, as Jiraiya explained. Bunshin needs a specific kekkei genkai or two to see through it, because it is not genjutsu.

You are placing this along with the genjutsu that Kabuto used to put people to sleep... it's basically a fancy name for hundreds of bunshin that keep appearing and dissappearing. You can't simply destroy them by punching them... cause they re-appear.
They reappear because they are imaginary. Bunshin are intangible but real. I am placing this alongside Kabuto's genjutsu because the technique in question is a genjutsu, not a ninjutsu. You are demanding that it behaves as bunshin while touting advantages which clearly demonstrate that it does not. This is genjutsu: it is not tajū bunshin.

Like I said Oboro would be off in the distance and then it would be Kakuzu holding off Tsunade and Sarutobi.
Your strategy relies on the teams pairing off as you require. Justify this unless you do not care about how weak it sounds. You clearly believe Kakuzu can hold off Tsunade and Sarutobi (I disagree). Do you, however, believe that Kakuzu can hold down Tsunade and Sarutobi?

while Kido, Sarutobi, and the numerous bunshins, fight against Kakashi. I've yet to hear a counter to this. No one has given me any explanation as to why this strategy wouldn't work except for
Here. All of these are reiterations, so you should see that "No one has given my any explanation..." is a little foolish.

Kakashi, Tsunade and Sarutobi would be working together as one unit. Your very strategy hinges upon an invalid assumption: that you can split the teams up as you wish and then hold Tsunade and Sarutobi in place.
Further, you seem to want Kakashi to run after Kakuzu. This is a straw man.
Oboro is a genin, and in the presence of jōnin manga evidence suggests he would not even be able to move.
Oboro's technique is genjutsu, Kakashi can definitely see right through it as per manga evidence, there is no justification for it being impossible to see through as they are not bunshin, it is a genjutsu rather than a ninjutsu, Tsunade and Sarutobi can likely cancel the genjutsu for this reason.
Oboro is so much slower than his opponents that he would likely be dead before he knew it.
Jutsu shō can cancel Oboro's technique, used by a kage bunshin of Sarutobi.
Kidōmaru is so outclassed by the elite jōnin tier that he would not even slow down Kakashi, an extremely cunning shinobi with the Sharingan.
Now if you believe for some strange reason that Tsunade would be allowed to hit Kakuzu, someone who was able to catch Kakashi off guard...
Yes, Kakuzu caught Kakashi offguard because Kakashi thought he was dead. Kakuzu got one hit in and didn't kill Kakashi. That's less impressive than what Kakashi did immediately before, catching Kakuzu offguard without requiring Kakuzu think he's dead, and getting an attack in that should've been lethal. Tsunade is above Kakashi. Tsunade, with back-up, is hitting Kakuzu. And as previously said, Kakuzu's primary physical attack mechanism involves extending his body. I cannot stress how bad it is to do this around a medical shinobi. Tsunade has a plethora of techniques which screw up the body, and Kakuzu is putting his body right up close to Tsunade.

when he's mainly playing for defense anyway. Or if you feel that she could break his doton armor (you EXTRAPOLATE without any real evidence. Tsunade made craters and Kakuzu was just as capable of such feats of strength. Nothing shown in the manga says otherwise) Then I can't change your mind.
Extrapolation is necessary for the majority of our knowledge. And correct, you will not change my mind by restating that you disagree, nor will I change yours. Let's neither of us beat a dead horse: we've got some important unresolved topics to cover still.

You're basically saying that Tsunade is so strong and so fast that she could destroy Kakuzu... I don't even know how to respond to that.
"Oops, silly me. Should've known a Hokage and Kakuzu's natural enemy was going to be a problem, especially when backed up with Sarutobi and Kakashi."

Nothing you've said is based off more than 'conjecture' and poor conjecture at that. You write off my characters, you ignore the evidence i say, you assume people can just destroy hundreds of bunshins when Naruto couldn't with kage bunshins, you assume Tsunade is stronger and faster than Kakuzu (in which case why the HELL is she cheaper than him?) and you assume that my strategy wouldn't work at all.
Naruto was fighting a genjutsu with force, that does not work. Those were not bunshin, stop repeating that lie. Your entire strategy relies on a straw man that everyone will separate and do what you say.

Tsunade is stronger than Kakuzu, but not faster. Also, overall Kakuzu is far more dangerous, hence why she's 25 points and Kakuzu 40. However, Tsunade might as well be Kakuzu's natural enemy. Yamato with information beats Hidan, etc. Natural enemies are a pain.

We will continue to disagree on several things, so here's what we shouldn't keep discussing: how Tsunade, Sarutobi, Kakuzu and Kakashi compare in speed, strength, chance of hitting each other etc. We basically already have our opinions. Let's focus on strategy and techniques instead, if you will.

It makes no sense. It's like you built the worst case scenario for me in your mind and assumed that was true.
I'm not making this up as I go along, please don't take offence. I've already considered prior to the tournament who was whose worst enemies, and if you had shown me your team and asked me, "What team could you create that would be the worst enemy for mine?", I would've written Id's team. This isn't at all against you.

My discussion so far hasn't really dealt with Id's strategy. I'm waiting to hear that. Because of what I perceive to be strategic advantages on Id's side, I don't see Id losing. I also think your strategy won't work, which further convinces me. I could personally suggest a strategy for Id, but I should probably leave it to him. He has my vote, anyway.

Distracted

06-21-2007, 11:36 PM

The genjutsu involves hundreds of bunshin being made. That's why I believe that strategy would work.

I firmly believe Kakuzu is strong enough, fast enough, and a large enough threat to them all... that he COULD hold off Sarutobi and Tsunade.

They are powerful Shinobi, but they are not speed demons. Especially since all Kakuzu would have to do is hold him in place.

If you think this wouldn't work then I'd gladly relegate Kidomaru into holding them into place as well. Kakuzu is capable of defending himself and Kidomaru.

Kidomaru's web is meant to do exactly what it's good for, slow down, delay, and annoy the shit out of everyone.

Oboro's genjutsu, which invovles hundreds of bunshin which are an illusion, that can't be dispelled (which is the genjutsu) are meant to do what they do... slow opponents down and make it so oboro won't be killed within a second. Something that you seem to firmly believe is so for some strange reason that is beyond me.

It's like you're saying "Well he's a genin, he won't even be able to move an inch before he's killed" as if he will have no protection at all, as if he'd just stand there, and as if once he has his technique it would be rendered useless by the 'jonin' shield.

I've already stated that you believe Tsunade would break Kakuzu's armor and I can't say anything that will convince you otherwise (we're looking at the SAME manga). However, I'm firmly convinced that Kakuzu was confident that only a Raiton technique would be able to break it. (Kakashi fills this purpose.)

If Tsunade can't break Kakuzu's defense, than nothing Sarutobi has shown can either. He is more than capable of holding the 2 off then because he's as fast as they are (in my opinion faster) and has the 4 other masks to launch techniques. His only goal at the beginning, as I said before, is to hold everyone off until Kakashi can be brought down.

Even without back up I can have Sarutobi kill pre-skip Kakashi. I'd just rather do it with as little injury as possible. Even if Kakashi is able to break out of the Genjutsu (something I find absurd) then what makes you think he'd have the time to do so? What makes you think he'd even be concerned about those when Sarutobi is attacking him?

Unless you seriously believe Tsunade can destroy Kakuzu alone, in which case we need to lower Kakuzu's cost and raise Tsunades, my strategy doesn't really have any flaws.

After Kakashi goes down then Kakuzu gets the chance to go after Tsunade alone (something I believe he can win, despite your opinion)

While the other 3 can focus on the other sarutobi. Even if for some strange reason Id's sarutobi wins (without back up?) then I feel Kakuzu can finish off what's left of him after he kills Tsunade.

You basically just said "No the Doton armor doesn't work, no the genjutsu is usless, Oboro dies before he can move, and Kido isn't able to do anything anyway."

That is what I've gotten from you Esponer. I think it's understandable that I'd be a little pissed at those kind of claims.

Esponer

06-21-2007, 11:42 PM

The genjutsu involves hundreds of bunshin being made.
No. The Databook description uses the word "clone", but this does not indicate that bunshin are created, particularly as a separate genjutsu for oboro bunshin is listed which seems rather likely. Further, the genjutsu's clones behave nothing like bunshin, reforming rather than being destroyed. And it is a genjutsu, not a ninjutsu. A genjutsu is not "a ninjutsu but one hundredfold", it is a totally different technique.

The genjutsu is not creating ninjutsu bunshin at all.

Hell, my translation says the illusions of hundreds of clones.

Distracted

06-21-2007, 11:48 PM

I thought bunshin WAS clone. Kage Bunshin = Shadow Clone.

Kage = Shadow

Bunshin = Clone.

I'm sorry for adding my thing into an edit cause I didn't want to double post. Please take the time to respond to that as well.

Genis-Vell

06-22-2007, 12:13 AM

My discussion so far hasn't really dealt with Id's strategy. I'm waiting to hear that. Because of what I perceive to be strategic advantages on Id's side, I don't see Id losing. I also think your strategy won't work, which further convinces me. I could personally suggest a strategy for Id, but I should probably leave it to him. He has my vote, anyway.

Ah interesting.
My strategy would be to target and kill off the weak links.
Conceal Kakashi. Only to reveal Kakshi for surprise attack.
And move in on a 3 on 1 fight.

I am assuming, that just before the match.
We see each other, and then begin.

Step One Target and Kill off weak links.
As soon as go is heard, a Jounin level Genjutsu would be cast.
Granted that Kazuku and the 3rd would be able to dispell it.
It takes a bit of time to figure out its an illusion. And Genins have a tendency to freak out.

Kill of the weak links. Bunshin (from Kakashi or Sarutobi) would be dispatched.
I don’t belive, genins can handle these Bunshins.
In the mist, Kakashi would burrow himself into the ground.

From here it takes an interesting point.
Sarutobi might take on Sarutobi.
Or Sarutobi might take on Kazuku.

Well my strategy revolves around the idea of targeting the weakest link.
And who better then someone we have the most knowledge of….Sarutobi. (thus making him the weaker link among the two..well that and the ageing >_>).
So in the end who ever gets paired off to enemy Sarutobi will end up dealing with a Kakashi co-op.

From here there is no guarantee that what happens in the paring with Kazuku.
But worst case scenario. Kazuku deals with Kakashi + a Kage.
Best case scenariou Kazuku deals with Kakashi + 2 Kages.

And lastly I would think Sarutobi would know and wield Chidori and or Rasengan.
I also wonder how effective Ranshinsho would be Kazuku.
(this is hard to overcome, even for a gifted medical nin…both Kazuku and Sarutobi are not gifted medical nins >_>).

Dudemancool

06-22-2007, 12:24 AM

kakashi dotons, kakuzu starts blasting, base kidou, sarutobi, and oboro watches kakuzu's back.

i really dont see wat tsunade or sarutobi could do in defense against Kakuzu's assault, i suppose Tsunade could fake defeat and then use Genesis Rebirth, though she doesnt really have the speed to take advantage of it.

All chances of a sneak attack by Kakashi are eliminated with 3 people watching Kakuzu's back.

Distracted

06-22-2007, 12:37 AM

Ah interesting.
My strategy would be to target and kill off the weak links.
Conceal Kakashi. Only to reveal Kakshi for surprise attack.
And move in on a 3 on 1 fight.

I am assuming, that just before the match.
We see each other, and then begin.

Step One Target and Kill off weak links.
As soon as go is heard, a Jounin level Genjutsu would be cast.
Granted that Kazuku and the 3rd would be able to dispell it.
It takes a bit of time to figure out its an illusion. And Genins have a tendency to freak out.

Kill of the weak links. Bunshin (from Kakashi or Sarutobi) would be dispatched.
I don’t belive, genins can handle these Bunshins.
In the mist, Kakashi would burrow himself into the ground.

From here it takes an interesting point.
Sarutobi might take on Sarutobi.
Or Sarutobi might take on Kazuku.

Well my strategy revolves around the idea of targeting the weakest link.
And who better then someone we have the most knowledge of….Sarutobi. (thus making him the weaker link among the two..well that and the ageing >_>).
So in the end who ever gets paired off to enemy Sarutobi will end up dealing with a Kakashi co-op.

From here there is no guarantee that what happens in the paring with Kazuku.
But worst case scenario. Kazuku deals with Kakashi + a Kage.
Best case scenariou Kazuku deals with Kakashi + 2 Kages.

And lastly I would think Sarutobi would know and wield Chidori and or Rasengan.
I also wonder how effective Ranshinsho would be Kazuku.
(this is hard to overcome, even for a gifted medical nin…both Kazuku and Sarutobi are not gifted medical nins >_>).

A good strategy, but it still ignores how mine works.

I will say that Sarutobi knowing Chidori or Rasengan is definitely feasible... however, he wouldn't be able to use chidori with out putting himself at INCREDIBLE risk. It leaves you exposed if you use it. Kakuzu would just catch him and use him considering Kakuzu is faster.

Now if he used Rasengan, (no manga evidence, but it's perfectly reasonable.) You have a story going for you.

I still don't believe he's anywhere near fast enough to overcome Kakuzu with it.

Also the genjutsu wouldn't work if you don't know where Oboro is, but it might be useful against Kidomaru.

Oboro is my trump card in either situation... he'd just be a constant annoyance that would make it very difficult for your team to plan anything.

Also just so you know. The way strategy works it's basically as if we got 60 seconds to strategies before the match. No real prep time but enough to come up with a coherent strategy.

thanks for being more realistic in your strategy and may the best team win :amuse

kojak488

06-22-2007, 02:42 AM

I may be a wee bit of a Kakuzu fanboi, but I'm trying to be impartial enough here. It's really sad that this Kakashi doesn't have knowledge of Kakuzu since that'd make it a lot easier of a fight for Id's team.

Now then I imagine both Sarutobis cancel each other out? I believe that's what was decided in the discussion thread. So can Tsunade and Kakashi take out Kakuzu with fodder? I don't think so.

Here's the turning point for me: this Kakashi has no foreknowledge of Kakuzu wheras Kakuzu fought against a more advanced Kakashi. Moreover, this time around, Kakuzu knows that Kakashi is there. Kakuzu isn't going to allow himself to be hit by the raikiri again, which means Tsunade's strength is useless on him. Now it's always possible that Tsunade can inform Kakashi that the raikiri will damper Kakuzu. To that I say that Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi.

My reasoning is simple. Kakashi had left Kakuzu lying in the dirt when he charged Hidan. He also charged Hidan with the chidori/raikiri, a technique where the user has to move so fast as to give them tunnel vision (requiring the Sharingan to use). During his charge Kakuzu managed to get to his feet, run past Kakashi, and kick him away without Kakashi even reacting to it. That screams speed to me. So even if Kakashi knowingly tries a raikiri on Kakuzu I don't see him being fast enough to get it off. After all, he only did so the first time when Kakuzu didn't even know he was there.

Kakuzu is still like a five man team too since he can use his ghosts and himself to attack. Those ghosts use S-rank elemental jutsus to boot. Sorry, I don't think Deus Ex can take this given the power that Kakuzu has. You don't live through 100 years of war by being weak either..

Winner - Distracted - Team Lionized

Distracted

06-22-2007, 02:58 AM

I didn't even think about the aspect of Kakashi not having knowledge of Kakuzu. And I'm actually not a huge Kakuzu fanboy. In my defense I think he's powerful and I'm testing the waters to see how useful he would be in a team.

Esponer

06-22-2007, 09:32 AM

On Saturday evening I will post a response to Distracted's problems (most of which are, unfortunately, going to be repetitions as Distracted believes I have not justified comments which I have), and an analysis of Id's strategy. I'll disprove that Oboro created bunshin for the third or fourth time. And while I'm here and since it bothers Distracted so much, type an extended justification for why I believe the lower tier characters would not contribute.

Slight difficulties keeping up with four at once.

Hiruko

06-22-2007, 12:47 PM

I have to give it to Id for this one. Firstly, oboro is nothing here. Kakashi's sharingan could find the real one and end its life wih a kunai in about 5 seconds. Kidomaru will also die pretty early, as sarutobi's sweeping moves will be hard to dodge. Also, I guess the two sandaims sorta cancel eachother out. Now, kakuzu might have a lot up his sleeve, but I reckon that his hearts will be teleported by kakashi/smashed by tsunade.

Winner - Id

Distracted

06-22-2007, 03:47 PM

For the 3rd or 4th time I repeat Esponer... the Bunshins isn't the genjutsu. They can be hit and they will go away, the Genjutsu is that they get cast again. I don't even understand why it's cast as a genjutsu again. Also it doesn't matter cause there is something you've all ignored.

Even if you think it can be dispelled... since when have HUNDREDS of bunshin ever been dispelled, EVER, by anything more than hitting them?

I have Kidomaru as backup for Oboro. If there is anything Kidomaru is good for it's a good distraction. Regardless with Kakuzu holding Sarutobi and Tsunade off (not implausable with the 5 masks and doton armor) and Sarutobi holding off Kakashi do you really think either will get the chance to kill him?

All he does is throw a kunai now and again... he's just an annoyance which is where he should be.

and Hiruko I have no problem with your opinion... except that Kakashi CAN'T teleport the hearts away... he's Pre-skip Kakashi. Also does everyone just cancel out the Sarutobis? That has never played out to be in my favor and is exactly what I would be avoiding at all costs.

Also Sasuke couldn't find the real one with his Sharingan either. Do I seriously have to post scans for you people?

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10093
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10094
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10095
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10096

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10099
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10100
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10101
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10102

As you can see it's just hundreds of bunshins, which is part of the genjutsu illusion. You can't destroy them and the opponent, Oboro, matched the movements of those clones. He then attacked with them. The sharingan only saw clones. Numerous kage bunshin only made the Rain nin increase the number of clones and they just defeated them (where Naruto replaced the team with himself of course.)

Explain to me exactly how a few kage bunshins from Kakashi will dispell them? Especially when Sarutobi is attacking ON TOP of it... and Kidomaru is helping out?

Are you saying Kidomaru is incapable of hitting a Kage Bunshin? Or Sandaime incapable of countering it?

Once again, if you feel for some strange reason that Tsunade is stronger than Kakuzu, Which you do think for some strange reason Esponer. Then I can't convince you otherwise... but don't write my character off as nothing.

The Truth

06-22-2007, 04:09 PM

Distracted

06-22-2007, 04:17 PM

Because the technique is itself a bunch of bunshin that can't be defeated. Bunshins go away when hit normally. As I pointed out the Sharingan only saw bunshins.

Even then you STILL ignore that he's doing this while the rest are fighting.

Kakashi can go ahead and dispell it if he wants. That leaves Sandaime open to smack him with Enma... or it leaves him open for Kidomaru to hit him.

If for some reason, pre-skip Kakashi does this and survives... and goes after Oboro... well Kido can just cast a web and slow Kakashi down. Even an elite Anbu can get caught off guard with it.

You guys act like Oboro isn't working IN A TEAM here. It's not a huge amount of team work to try to stop someone from attacking a member of your team.

The only way Kakashi could destroy Kido's web, outrun Sandaime, and kill Oboro... is if he used a Chidori. In which case he'll leave himself exposed afterwards, and he'll have wasted a chidori and he could only do 4 of them pre-skip.

My strategy was a cohesive one and I'm tired of defending a single point when the weaknesses are covered for.

The Truth

06-22-2007, 04:42 PM

Distracted

06-22-2007, 05:12 PM

If Oboro can't use it himself why did we even include him in this tournament <.<

Either way hundreds of bunshins and the occasional kunai is FAR more than I need for this strategy to work.

even if Kido catches Kakashi only ONCE with his web that is more than enough to leave him vastly exposed and Sandaime will not leave him open.

masamune1

06-22-2007, 06:11 PM

I was looking forward to fighting Team Lionized.
A pity, then, that they will lose.

Oboro's Bunshins will not make a difference in this match. The Sharingan can see through them (as Sasuke proved), so Kakashi can deal with it, whilst if Sarutobi or Tsunade have to face him they can probably just level the building (as Kakashi himself can). Besides, regardless of whether they are Ninjutsu or Genjutsu they are still Genin-level jutsu, and neither an S-class Medic nin, a Kage, or an elite technique specialist Jonin is going to find themselves falling for it. They may even counter with a Genjutsu of there own, which will be stronger.

As for Kidomaru, his jutsu in his normal mode is rather limited, as he can only use basic webbing attacks, and his hardened skin is'nt going to hold up well to a super-punch or a decent elemental attack. Whoever faces these two is going to be faster, smarter, stronger, more powerful and more experienced, esp. if it's one of the S-classers. And don't forget, both of these ninja relied heavily on the forest for their strategy- based mainly on hiding- and a Forest is something that is noticebly lacking within the temple, This fight will be over quickly.

And because of that, either Kakuzu or Sarutobi is going to find themselves in the unenviable position of having to face two high-level ninja's at the same time, and I do not see either one faring well in that fight (esp. Kakuzu, since he is the weakest meber of Distracted's duo, and starts off at 3/5 his normal strength).

In the end, it just comes down to the fact that a team of three high-level ninja is greater than a team of two high-level ninja with Genin for backup, and weak ones at that (since Kido needs CS and/or his team to show what he can really do, and both need a better battleground).

Deus Ex Machina, Plot no Jutsu, whatever you want to call it, this was a bad matchup for Team Lionized. Team Deus Ex wins.

kojak488

06-22-2007, 06:28 PM

Masamune, this is normal Kakuzu on Distracted's team. He starts off with all five of his hearts intact, at full health, not not exhausted in the least. He's the strongest member of Distracted's team, not the weakest.

Distracted

06-22-2007, 10:21 PM

Man does everyone have some strange idea about my team?

I've had someone claim that Kakashi would MS Kakuzu, I've had someone claim my Kakuzu was weak, and I've had people claim that they will see through Oboro's bunshins.

I'm getting out voted cause people have messed up ideas. If you think it can be dispelled I'm gonna stop arguing against it... cause that will only leave a character exposed and let me win at this point.

Law

06-22-2007, 11:34 PM

Masamune's comments should be revised due to him obviously not knowing who was on Distracted's team.

However, Distracted should also realize that The Truth may have a point in that Oboro's technique and genjutsu could very well need all three nin to achieve effectively.

We have all three in the tournament at 1 point each, and honestly...from how we've thrown pre-sakura, pre-ino and pre-chouji in there...Oboro seems a bit too powerful if he can do the genjutsu alone.

I am not saying this is definitively how it is...but it's not an outright awful thought that The Truth had there.

Masamune, in order to vote for Id's team, you should revise your statement out of goodwill, if your vote changes due to the new information, please state that as well.

[edit]
OK!
Kakuzu is being underestimated, and pre-skip Kakashi is being overestimated.
However, Distracted is relying much too heavily on Oboro's questionable technique.
Doesn't matter much to me, to be perfectly honest. Kakuzu and Sarutobi are enough to take down his opponents.

As I said in the tourney discussion, no one should ever count out even a genin. Even as fodder, they are an advantage. Distracted's team could use Oboro as a decoy. Even a genin's kunai cuts skin...so an opponent will ALWAYS have to make the next move. It's like chess. Even a pawn can kill the queen...even when the queen is 50 times more powerful. So the queen either has to kill the pawn or move out of the way. Either way she moves, her opponent could have set a trap for her.

Kakuzu and Sarutobi have to be THE MOST experienced team in this entire tournament. Any trap they pull off is going to be for keeps.

Kakuzu is the queen (lmao), Sarutobi is the Rook, Kido is the bishop, and Oboro is the pawn(s).
Against 2 Rooks and one Knight.
(this is how I see things, stuff it haters!)

Esponer seems to think that having low-tier characters or "pawns" is a hindrance, I believe it is an advantage. As I said, even the weakest character can NOT be ignored.

Kakashi does not know Kakuzu's abilities, and Tsunade knows what she could autopsy. Which means she knows about him having more than one heart, and that his body is made up of tentacles. She will NOT know how he fights in combat. This is a huge disadvantage to Id's team.

As for characters cancelling themselves out:
They do not automatically slay one another...that is fallacy. However, and this is a big however - If one team's Sarutobi wants to attack someone besides Sarutobi...he can chosoe that, but it does NOT mean that his opponent will feel the same way. If Id's Sarutobi attacks Kakuzu, Distracted's Sarutobi can kill him as he does it. If Id's Sarutobi waits to counter Kakuzu's jutsu, Distracted's Sarutobi can attack Id's Sarutobi.

In effect, this DOES cancel out the Sarutobi's, because if it did not, then Id is out a Sarutobi, and Distracted is not. Skilled and experienced ninjas do not make the first move, leaving themselves open unless they know what their opponent will and can do to them as they're vulnerable.

so, in other words, if both players CHOOSE to not cancel out their Sarutobis, then that's fine. But if one player wants the Sarutobis to fight...then they make the decision for both.

So the way I see it, we have:

Kakuzu (5 hearts, doton skin, no PiS), Oboro pawn, Kido
vs
Tsunade and pre-skip Kakashi (with no MS, and no knowledge of who Kakuzu is)

Tsunade will not know that Kakuzu's skin is iron, and while she knows that his body is sewn together, she has no idea how he fights with his tentacles. Strong or not, regenerative or not, her heart can be ripped out too. It won't go down like that though, because Kakuzu would know Kakashi is coming and has COMPLETE knowledge of what Kakashi does to him.
There is no way possible that Kakuzu will allow Kakashi to raikiri him.

Due to Kakuzu having knowledge over Kakashi, and Id's team not having sufficient knowledge about Kakuzu...and with Kakuzu using Oboro and Kido as advantageous sacrifices (think...Kakashi charges him, using Raikiri...and Kido or Oboro tries to attack him from the side. Kakuzu has them accidentally "trip" into the path of the raikiri, LOL) with however they want to attack, and become fodder.

I give this to Distracted.

I vote for Team Lionized.

Distracted

06-23-2007, 05:43 AM

As I said earlier, if he can't throw the kunai as well, then whatever I'll just use the bunshins.

I also stated in my strategy that it's not about Oboro being able to take them out or do anything. He's there for exactly the purpose to mentioned in your post... he's a decoy. His bunshins are nothing but annoyances.

If anyone takes the time to try to dispell the genjutsu... they leave themselves open... or they have to deal with it and ignore them. Either way it doesn't play with their favor.

I didn't RELY on the the technique, I was just using it and people presented weird challenges to it. My entire strategy isn't based on Oboro obviously.

However, I still believe Kido using his web, with neither Tsunade and Kakashi having any knowledge of it... well leave them WAY too exposed and will get them killed in a hurry.

Violent By Design

06-23-2007, 12:38 PM

This match up is very interesting also. I think people forgot how powerful Kakuzu is.

Food for thought, the Enma Staff from Sarutobi is as hard as diamond. Kakuzu's iron skin is as hard as iron, meaning Sarutobi can crack Kakuzu's iron skin.

Also Orobo's Genjutsu CAN be dispelled. There is no real debate in this, I think you just confused yourself Distracted. Also Kakashi who is a Sharigon user should be able to get rid of Oboro's genjutsu. Oboro is a great character for how many points hes worth, and if a Sharigon/Genjutsu user wasn't on the other team I'd ALWAYS put in Oboro as a heavy factor.

Anyway to the battle. I do not see any way for Tsunade to be able to hit Kakuzu. First off even though I believe Tsunade's punch does a lot more damage then Kakuzu's, there IS no evidence for it.

The problem with Kakuzu is that his offense is litterely just as good as his defense. First off he has knowledge of Kakashi and vice versa. He will be weary of getting hit by lighting attacks once more. Kakuzu whips out his tentacles and there isn't shit Tsunade can do to get in.

He spams his S-ranked elementals all over the place. Kakashi will attempt sneak attacks on Kakuzu, but the old mans experience will come into play. I believe all in all Kakazu can out last Kakashi and Tsunade. Coming out with maybe 1 or 2 hearts left.

My vote goes to Team Lionized

kojak488

06-23-2007, 12:51 PM

First off he has knowledge of Kakashi and vice versa.

I feel bad for you distracted.. people aren't even reading who's in your team correctly.

Pre-Kakashi has no knowledge of Kakuzu.

masamune1

06-23-2007, 02:47 PM

Firstly, I should apologise. I probably got them confused because I was busy strategizing for my own team as well.

I have re-read your strategy, and this time paid attention. However, I still vote for Id's team (though obviously, with more difficulty).

1. Oboro's technique is a Genjutsu, because a normal Bunshin is a Genjutsu.
Kage Bunshin are different and more advanced, as are Water and the other Clone jutsu's, because they can actually hurt an opponent. Regular Bunshin cannot. All Oboro did was use a trckier version of a bunshin, that made them come bck when he wantes them too. Furthermore, as has already been stated Oboro had the help of his teammates when using that Jutsu, and in fact you can clearly see that several of the clones are not his.

And for the record, Kabuto was collecting Data on Team 7; that is why he did nothing. He could easily have defeated those Rain Genin by himself, but that would have defeated the purpose of his mission, which was to see what they (or Naruto, it seemed, in this case) were capable of.

2. Kido and Oboro will not be a problem. Kakashi can Dispel the genjutsu of Oboro easily, and despit what Distracted believes he will not succumb to a cheap shot by the Third. Dispelling genjutsu, esp. weak genjutsu (he's only a Genin, after all) does not appear to be a difficult thing to do, and Kakashi always has the fine art of the Replacement jutsu (which seems for be a prequisite for Konoha nin, since they seem to be the only ones who use it) to deal with that, and Kido's webs (which could also be countered by a decent Katon.

Kakashi also has two means to defeat those two without taking his attention off of Sarutobi; the first, defeat them with Kage Bunshins. Though they may be defeated by a tap, Kakashi is an elite Jonin whilst the other two are genin (since Kido can't use the Curse Seal), and the difference in power for even a clone is immense. He could normally defeat both without them even seeing him, let alone touching him, and they same stands for one of his clones.
The second is his Ninja Hounds. Neither Kido and especially not Oboro are going to be able to deal with a pack of ninja-trained dogs on their tail, and once they are dne with them the dogs become Sarutobi's problem, too (though he can deal with it).

3. With or without Kido and Oboro as nuisances, Kakashi is going to give Sarutobi hell, although in the long term he will lose. Kido and Oboro will not be a problem, because these two will be moving at such speeds and using such powerful attacks that it would be suicide for them to get involved.
Sharingan will give him the means to avoid several messy ends, and he has the advantage of being younger than his advesary, although in the end the Sharingan will probably drain him too much.

Above all, Kakashi will never in a million years underestimate the Third Hokage, and will be utilising all of his cunning to fight him. He will be careful with his chakra, and will use skill and guile to last in this match, crucil because the Third is also at risk from tiring himself out in this match. If all goes well, this might even reach a stalemate, with Sarutobi's age and the intensity of this fight causing him to be as out of it as his Chakra-drained opponent.

4. Now to the Kakuzu fight. I may have underestimated him before, but if he is facing two Kage-leve ninja at once he is a dead man, Iron Skin or not.

Firstly, I have no doubt in my mind that Tsunade has the strength to break Iron Skin. It's an Earth-based jutsu (meaning that, technically, his skin does not turn to Iron but Rock, though I'm sensing a debate coming about that) and she has proven several times that she can break through rock with ease.
His speed is impressive, and he's probably faster than her (though I'm not sure if that stands in Iron Skin), but Tsuande has ways of getting around that, such as destroying the very ground he runs on.

Secondly, Sarutobi can act as an excellent distraction. He too can use high-level ninjutsu, and consequently will be able to match the Akatsuki freak, for a while at least. He probably can't use it as fast as Kakuzu, but he'll be able to use it as well as him, and of course he probably knows more. He should even have a few Lightning jutsu in there (if it's Chidori, Tsuande could be the neccesary distraction for him to use it, though he should know others) allowing him to defeat Iron Skin, assuming Tsunade has not already dealt with it.

In other words, they use Kakuzu's and Hidan's own battle tactic against him: long-range high-level ninjutsu from one shinobi coupled with powerful, potential one-hit kill close-range attacks from the other. Of course, they will have to be more careful than those two were, but their superior teamwork should make up for it.

After a while, Kakuzu will do as Kakuzu does: lose his temper. This is where he dies, because he is not going to be thinking clearly and that will get him killed. While he is at his most dangerous when he is enraged, he is also at his most vulnerable- never a good thing when dealing with two Hokages- and in the midst of his rampage will be several openings to be exploited (as Naruto did) by either a powerful Ninjutsu from the Third or more likely an attack from Tsunade, who can either punch a hole through him, rip his head off, or throw him around like the rag doll he is until his corpse stops squirming (remember, you don't need to kill his hearts to kill Kakuzu, although both are capable of that). Alternatively, they can simply hide, and wait for him to waste his chakra before pouncing on and killing him.

Alone, either Sarutobi or Tsunade would put up a good fight, but lose to Kakuzu. But together, you have two of the strongest ninja from Konoha utilising the teamwork they are famous for, and it will be enough to defeat Kakuzu. Their victory is not certain, of course, but there odds are good, and this fight will not be as close as the Saru-Kakashi fight, and in the end if Team Lionized's Third is still moving he will be severly weakened, far more than the survivor(s) of the Kakuzu fight (even if Kakuzu is the strongest in his team, and don't forget that he may try to kill them when he's enraged), and will lose to them because of that difference.

With difficulty, the winner is still Team Deus Ex.

Law

06-23-2007, 02:56 PM

I feel bad for you distracted.. people aren't even reading who's in your team correctly.

Pre-Kakashi has no knowledge of Kakuzu.

Yes, people need to read more clearly.

Kyon

06-23-2007, 05:56 PM

Alright guys, you've got 24 hours to wrap this up.

Id- Esponer, Hiruko, masamune1

Distracted- kojak488, Eddy-sensei, Violent By Design, Dudemancool (?)

Distracted winning 4-3

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 06:36 PM

My, my 24 hours and its up?
Ah well, I suppose its time I step in.

Alright guys, you've got 24 hours to wrap this up.
Id- Esponer, Hiruko, masamune1
Distracted- kojak488, Eddy-sensei, Violent By Design, Dudemancool (?)
Distracted winning 4-3

Um…I think you should re-count those votes.

Id
Deus Ex
Id
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9052552&postcount=3
Esponer
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9052576&postcount=4
The Truth
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9053083&postcount=9
Hiruko
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9062356&postcount=23
masamune1
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9067081&postcount=29

Total - 5 votes (including my own)

Distracted
Team Lionized
Distracted
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9052068&postcount=2
Dudemancool
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9054600&postcount=18
kojak488
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9056508&postcount=20
Eddy-sensei
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9070380&postcount=32
Violent By Design
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9075941&postcount=34

Total - 5 votes (including Distracted)

Law

06-23-2007, 06:41 PM

Id ^ in the links you provided, The Truth did not vote yet.
So removing the unnecessary voting by the players themselves...

The voting is still 4-3 for Distracted.

Cabbage Cabrera

06-23-2007, 06:42 PM

I really like Id's team but i think Distracted wins.

From the get-go, the 2 Sarutobi's would be a deadlock and wouldn't do much to help the fight. But Id has the advantage of having 2 Konoha nin to aid his Sarutobi in combat. But Kakuzu is the usual beast we know him as. Post-skip Kakashi had a hard enough time as it is against Kakuzu, pre-skip he doesn't stand a chance in hell. Kido's ability to entangle his opponents would work well against the likes of Tsunade because she sin't a very mobile fighter. With help from Oboro they would be able to slow her pace to a stand still. As Kakuzu and Sarutobi take on Kakashi and the other Sarutobi, it will most likely end in the Kakuzu/Sarutobi combo winning and then they'd procede to defeat Tsunade quite easily.

Winner: Team Lionized - Distracted

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 07:24 PM

Id ^ in the links you provided, The Truth did not vote yet.
So removing the unnecessary voting by the players themselves...

The voting is still 4-3 for Distracted.
Well that’s odd. I mean in his own words

Well, i'm inclined to favor Deus Ex in this one. I think Team Lionized success is heavily reliant on his battle plan working our favorably. I'll explain in detail after considering this further.

He states who he favors in this match. And goes on to explain why.

To me that is evident of choosing one side, and giving your reasons.

Violent By Design

06-23-2007, 07:25 PM

I feel bad for you distracted.. people aren't even reading who's in your team correctly.

Pre-Kakashi has no knowledge of Kakuzu.

Yeah you got me there. People need to read more clearly, especially when Pre Kakashi isn't on distracteds team.

And if anything that just makes my vote even more for Distracted. Since if you read my post it'd show that even if it was Post Kakashi my vote wouldn't change.

But anyway, thanks for pointing it out. My bad :( I just figured it was Post Kakashi because other wise I don't really see how ID's team can win if no one has any knowledge of Kakuzu.

Law

06-23-2007, 07:32 PM

Well that’s odd. I mean in his own words

He states who he favors in this match. And goes on to explain why.

To me that is evident of choosing one side, and giving your reasons.

Sorry, The Truth has done the same thing in just about every thread. He says "I'm leaning towards X at the moment"...that does not constitute a vote and he knows it full well. In the same thing you just quoted he even says he has to consider it further...I mean, how can that be easier to identify as a non-vote?

The Truth

06-23-2007, 07:38 PM

Well I've heard the arguments and now i'll cast my vote.

Though Distracted has a sound strategy, I think it takes too many liberties. From the amount of clones Oboro's genjutsu can create, to how long it'll be before 3 ninjas with excellent chakra control figure it out. I think this battle favors Id's team because they have the best medic in the world and at least a passing familiarity with each other. If necessary i'll further explain my decision, but with a day left its best i make it official:

Winner- Team Deux Ex

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 07:40 PM

A good strategy, but it still ignores how mine works.

It’s a strategy and a perspective of points, of how an event would unfold.
My strategy is going to be done with out knowledge of your strategy (unless I have a telepath on my team - which I don’t). As to how our strategies would progress…well that differs among different minds. Especially for our case, when we are competing against each other.

But in any case, I shall analyze and write a rebuttal for your strategies and perspective of events.

Sarutobi would attack Kakashi with Oboro using his Kasumi Jūsha no Jutsu to give the image of HUNDREDS of him. He would do this to throw kunai and to give back up to Sarutobi. Kido would try to stay out of the way of the fight and only cast the web to slow Kakashi down. With the web on the floor and such Kakashi won't be able to use Chidori without getting caught up in it.

I see. So off the bat, Sarutobi and two genins are going to out pace my trio of Elite Jounins. And overwhelm Kakashi. Kakashi must be a vary inexperienced because a Jusha no Jutsu is something he has never encountered before, and would be sufficient to place him in check…even with 3 tome Sharingan activated.

Kakuzu with his Doton armor and his superior speed combined with his other masks is more than enough to keep Tsunade and Sarutobi at bay.

Superior speed? Kakuzu never really struck me as the fastest nin. But I have a hard time believing Kazuku can single handedly hold Tsunade and Sarutobi at bay. Either one, by him/her self. Are easily around his level to at least compete.

Tsunade would be a pure brute force fighter and would have very little of an answer against Kakuzu. The elemental jutsu would cancel out Sarutobi's awesome jutsu as well.

Well Tsunade is a tank and a healer. We have enough evidence that points out she can, pound away Donton Armor. And lets not forget, she only needs one single clear hit from Ranshinshou, for Kazuku to lose control of his body.

I agree, with Kazuku having enough to cancel out Sarutobi jutsu by himself.

But Tsunade and Sarutobi have far more experience, skill, and tools to catch Kazuku off gourd and land more then one clear hit then say Kakashi, Chouji, and Ino.

After Kakashi falls, Sarutobi, Kido, and Oboro would then provide the back up that Kakuzu needs. They would focus on the other Sarutobi first and keep him at try to destroy him and Kakuzu is far more than enough to destroy Tsunade on his own.
Unfortunately I don’t see Kakuzu surviving either. A team of Tsunade and Sarutobi is something you would want to avoid. The possibility of landing Ranshinshou is vary high.
And this places Kakuzu in a formidable predicament.

After all lets not forget that, Sarutobi is in fact Tusnade’s master.
This type of paring (not just random mix and match) happens to be the best type of team work, one would strive for.

Eddy-sensei@ I disagree in how you view this match as a game of chess and assigning piece value. To determine who is what, is complicated enough. And in this case taking out the queen does not mean the end of the match. I could lose 2 nins, aiming for Kazuku, and in the end I will still have 1 elite nin and 2 helpers. Thus the game still continues.

Advantages of my team.
My team is has healer (woot woot….I hope >_>)
My team has experience. (2 Kages, and an Elite Ninja).
My team has high morale. Meaning, they have no beef with each other, and are willing to work with one another. Sadly the same can not be said about Kazuku and Sarutobi paring.
My team has knowledge of what another. Compared to the mix and match of all 3 sides (Sound, Akatsuki , and Leaf nins…with no prior knowledge of one another, and conflicting views. This hinders team work and strategy. After all...In Character rule is in effect).

Distracted

06-23-2007, 08:05 PM

wondering when you'd seriously jump in Id. You're one of my favorite participants in this tournament.

It’s a strategy and a perspective of points, of how an event would unfold.
My strategy is going to be done with out knowledge of your strategy (unless I have a telepath on my team - which I don’t). As to how our strategies would progress…well that differs among different minds. Especially for our case, when we are competing against each other.

Same goes for mine, I hope you kept up with my change on Oboro since I discovered people think it's physically impossible to do what I thought he could.

Egg on my face I guess.

But in any case, I shall analyze and write a rebuttal for your strategies and perspective of events.

And I shall counter point I guess.

I see. So off the bat, Sarutobi and two genins are going to out pace my trio of Elite Jounins. And overwhelm Kakashi. Kakashi must be a vary inexperienced because a Jusha no Jutsu is something he has never encountered before, and would be sufficient to place him in check…even with 3 tome Sharingan activated.

Well that's a horrible way of putting it. It won't be a straight 'out pace' it will be a matter of brute force actually. Which, sadly, is something I have on my side with Kakuzu.

He is fast enough AND strong enough to go after your 2 Kages. Especially when his only intention is to keep them out of the rest of the fight. Then why WOULDN'T Kakashi want to leave them to fight the strongest person on the team?

Superior speed? Kakuzu never really struck me as the fastest nin. But I have a hard time believing Kazuku can single handedly hold Tsunade and Sarutobi at bay. Either one, by him/her self. Are easily around his level to at least compete.

He caught Kakashi, whom I believe to be the fastest person on your team, with ease. He has all 5 hearts to use, and he has his speed to help him. He will most likely keep the doton heart in and use that to make armor and have the other 4 out.

With elemental jutsu, and his strength (not as absurd as Tsunade's, but still a threat to anyone it hits.) he is more than capable at keeping their attention.

Well Tsunade is a tank and a healer. We have enough evidence that points out she can, pound away Donton Armor. And lets not forget, she only needs one single clear hit from Ranshinshou, for Kazuku to lose control of his body.

I will agree that her hit would hurt, even through the Doton armor. However, I don't believe it would break it nor do I believe the whole force would actually hurt him. The thing is Kakuzu knows everything about your team (Bounties!) and your team has NO knowledge about how he fights. Tsunade has some idea, but she never encountered it.

He will not let her land that blow, and he has the Hearts to throw jutsu at her. Remember, distraction, not victory there.

I agree, with Kazuku having enough to cancel out Sarutobi jutsu by himself.

I'll admit that it would be a bit of a chore to do so.

But Tsunade and Sarutobi have far more experience, skill, and tools to catch Kazuku off gourd and land more then one clear hit then say Kakashi, Chouji, and Ino.

They have more tools than Ino and Choji I'll give them that. However, they don't have many more tools than Kakashi did. They just have the ability of team work. However you forget something. Kakuzu is an EXTREMELY level headed guy. I want him to DISTRACT that team until back up arrives. So while they have more tools to beat him in an all out fight... it's not the point of the initial encounter.

Unfortunately I don’t see Kakuzu surviving either. A team of Tsunade and Sarutobi is something you would want to avoid. The possibility of landing Ranshinshou is vary high.
And this places Kakuzu in a formidable predicament.

If his goal was to kill them. I wouldn't see him winning either. However, that is not my strategy and you ignored that aspect of it. His Shunshin is formidable.

After all lets not forget that, Sarutobi is in fact Tusnade’s master.
This type of paring (not just random mix and match) happens to be the best type of team work, one would strive for.

Agreed, it would be difficult. However, without her summon, and with only the staff. They lose part of the effectiveness we've seen in the manga. Either way Sarutobi and Tsunade are not slow pokes, I never said they were and I hope no one took that. I was pointing out that Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi.

His goal is to distract those 2 members, and not kill them. Something he is vastly capable of doing.

Eddy-sensei@ I disagree in how you view this match as a game of chess and assigning piece value. To determine who is what, is complicated enough. And in this case taking out the queen does not mean the end of the match. I could lose 2 nins, aiming for Kazuku, and in the end I will still have 1 elite nin and 2 helpers. Thus the game still continues.

If you lose 2 nins taking out Kakuzu then I still have Sarutobi with back up going after whomever you have left. Bad move.

You also never even COUNTERED the idea of Sarutobi taking on Kakashi with a genjutsu freak and a webbing spider guy as back up.

They would both be support fighters. While Kakashi CAN see through the genjutsu (Sasuke could) there is no evidence that he'd be able to dispell it with Sarutobi chasing him down.

Advantages of my team.
My team is has healer (woot woot….I hope >_>)
My team has experience. (2 Kages, and an Elite Ninja).
My team has high morale. Meaning, they have no beef with each other, and are willing to work with one another. Sadly the same can not be said about Kazuku and Sarutobi paring.
My team has knowledge of what another. Compared to the mix and match of all 3 sides (Hidden Mist, Akatsuki , and Leaf Kage…with no prior knowledge of one another, and conflicting views. This hinders team work and strategy. After In Character rule is in effect).

My team has a healer as well actually. Kakuzu did sew people back together and replace arms.

Incorrect, I have Kakuzu AND Sarutobi. I beat you in experience.

I'll give you the higher morale. However Sarutobi has no knowledge of Kakuzu and thus would not have any ill will towards him. Plus this is a fight to the death... why wouldn't he work with the rest of my team?

I'll give you the advantage of knowledge of each others abilities. I have no real make up of that on my team. However, 2 of my team members are long rage support people. And the other 2 are insanely experience people who are fighting on 2 different fronts.

My team strategy doesn't depend on absurd amounts of team work. Just them doing what they do best. Unlike your team.

Law

06-23-2007, 08:20 PM

In-character means that Sarutobi would be passionate about the fight.
No emotion means he would have no qualms with working together with an S-class criminal.

The teamwork favor is on Id's side though as they all know one another in one way or...another. (damn)

But don't try and say that Naruto wouldn't fight with Oro...that type of comment won't fly. Saru has no issue with Kakuzu when they're on the same team.

I see the votes as 5-4 for Distracted at the moment, as The Truth has solidified his case, and Joe Gear voted for Distracted.

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 09:09 PM

wondering when you'd seriously jump in Id. You're one of my favorite participants in this tournament.

I was to busy to post. And I finally get off early from work..only to realize my match is at its closing end.
Just my luck >_>

Same goes for mine, I hope you kept up with my change on Oboro since I discovered people think it's physically impossible to do what I thought he could.

Egg on my face I guess.

Yup. If we didn’t have different perspectives, we would not have much of a debate. >_>
And everyone (and I mean everyone - including my self several times) overlooks, or forgets a piece of information. Naruto is a vary extensive manga, and its to much for one to keep absolute knowledge off.

Well that's a horrible way of putting it. It won't be a straight 'out pace' it will be a matter of brute force actually. Which, sadly, is something I have on my side with Kakuzu.

He is fast enough AND strong enough to go after your 2 Kages. Especially when his only intention is to keep them out of the rest of the fight. Then why WOULDN'T Kakashi want to leave them to fight the strongest person on the team?

This is ware a merging of strategies would take place.
The moment we are given the green light, I doubt your team would act. And my team would stay put.

Our First Stage strategies.
You: Your team would try to take out Kakashi and assist Kazuku.
Me: My team would attempt to take down the weakest links, and divert the fights on a two on two. Keeping Kakashi hidden for a sneak attack. Your Sarutobi is the target.

Ok with this mind. We are given the green light. Your Sarutobi performs his Kasumi Jusha no Jutsu.
At the same time my Sarutobi performs a high class area effect Genjutsu.

From analyzing these events. I would think that given Kakashi Sharingan and speed. He should be able to avoid Sarutobis ninjutsu. While all your members are effected by the Genjutsu. The time it takes to realize it’s a Genjutsu and dispel it is enough to give my team a window of opportunity in dividing your team.

Kakashi - performs Kage Bunshin and hides underground or performs Bikou Ninjutsu.

Your two genins know have to deal with an Elite Jounin Clone. And Kakashi watching on the side line. Their chances of survival has dropped. And they still have to de-spell or overcome the Genjutsu. Farther more, Hidden Kakashi can still hunt them down and assist their clones with more High level genjutsu.

He caught Kakashi, whom I believe to be the fastest person on your team, with ease. He has all 5 hearts to use, and he has his speed to help him. He will most likely keep the doton heart in and use that to make armor and have the other 4 out.

With elemental jutsu, and his strength (not as absurd as Tsunade's, but still a threat to anyone it hits.) he is more than capable at keeping their attention.

I think I will re-read Kazuku fight over, before I continue.

I will agree that her hit would hurt, even through the Doton armor. However, I don't believe it would break it nor do I believe the whole force would actually hurt him. The thing is Kakuzu knows everything about your team (Bounties!) and your team has NO knowledge about how he fights. Tsunade has some idea, but she never encountered it.

He will not let her land that blow, and he has the Hearts to throw jutsu at her. Remember, distraction, not victory there.

My Tsunade holds much knowledge of Kazuku, more then she is given credit of and more then Kazuku knows of Tsunade. My Tsunade is not hindered to pre time skip.
And all leaf nins have to report to Godaime Hokage after any mission has taken place.
This includes Kazuku and Hidan encounters.

They have more tools than Ino and Choji I'll give them that. However, they don't have many more tools than Kakashi did. They just have the ability of team work. However you forget something. Kakuzu is an EXTREMELY level headed guy. I want him to DISTRACT that team until back up arrives. So while they have more tools to beat him in an all out fight... it's not the point of the initial encounter

I would think that given their field of expertise, experience, charka control. Far out ranks anything Kakashi can think of on his own (comparing to a dual team up of Kages especially Master and Apprentice team up).

And I have not disregarded your intentions of holding the front. But you have to admit that, death is vary probable when you are dealing with two Kage nins single-handedly.
Especially when those are my intentions.

If you lose 2 nins taking out Kakuzu then I still have Sarutobi with back up going after whomever you have left. Bad move.

You also never even COUNTERED the idea of Sarutobi taking on Kakashi with a genjutsu freak and a webbing spider guy as back up.

They would both be support fighters. While Kakashi CAN see through the genjutsu (Sasuke could) there is no evidence that he'd be able to dispell it with Sarutobi chasing him down.

I agree to your post to a certain extent. But it served its purpose, and this is relevant in your post. The match does not end like in a chess bored. And killing the queen does not mean check mate….necessarily (its all circumstantial if you ask me. >_>)

My team has a healer as well actually. Kakuzu did sew people back together and replace arms.

But Hidan is immortal…that’s does not give me a vary high medical healing feat . And he did stuff to his body (thus the tentacles).

Incorrect, I have Kakuzu AND Sarutobi. I beat you in experience.

Um…I never said my team was superior in experience. But surely given what we have seen and known of.
Experience is defiantly a strong point.
Your Kakuzu and Sarutobi beats my Sarutobi and Tsunade (not by much, Tsunade is a fairly old hag).

And the two Genins combined could never compare to Kakashi in experience.

I'll give you the higher morale. However Sarutobi has no knowledge of Kakuzu and thus would not have any ill will towards him. Plus this is a fight to the death... why wouldn't he work with the rest of my team?

K.O. is acceptable and Sarutobi has a thing about taking out own leaf nin.
Sarutobi view of K.O. being sufficient, would conflict with everyone else’s win by death.

I'll give you the advantage of knowledge of each others abilities. I have no real make up of that on my team. However, 2 of my team members are long rage support people. And the other 2 are insanely experience people who are fighting on 2 different fronts

I acknowledge your team.

My team strategy doesn't depend on absurd amounts of team work. Just them doing what they do best. Unlike your team.

But my team is doing what they do best >_>. And absorbed amount of team work is just a beneficial factor for my character picking. Surely you agree to this?

Distracted

06-23-2007, 09:35 PM

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 09:44 PM

I disagree with the Kakashi strategy you posted in that... well Sarutobi wouldn't fall for such a simple ruse.

Remember you're fighting a guy who put up a hell of a fight against Orochimaru... while that same Orochimaru made your Kakashi think he was dead.

Kakashi is a hell of a fighter, but don't think he'd one up Sarutobi and the rest of my team THAT easily.

I will give you this, if Kakashi could defeat Sarutobi, or found a way to do so. The victory starts falling much closer on your side.

However, I don't see that happening.

Oh and remember Kakuzu repaired Deidara's arms. Kakuzu doesn't have to repair only immortals.

Though honestly neither of our medic nins will really be healing anyone other than themselves on the playing field.
But I don’t have Kakashi fighting Sarutobi. I has my Sarutobi perfoming Genjutsu. At the same time your Sarutobi attackes. I only stated, its well within reason for my Kakashi to avoid his attack.

From their, I start to favor my strategy. Because all of your members become effected. Thus giving me a window of opportunity.

Consequently have your Sarutobi fight either my Sarutobi or Tsunade.

Kakashi stays hidden. His clones are off to hunt your genins. My Kakashi goal serves to aid either kage, in a surprise attack.

Distracted

06-23-2007, 09:49 PM

As if my Sarutobi wouldn't make a Kage bunshin to counter Kakashi's?

Also Oboro is depending on making Bunshins as a distraction from a distance. Kido is mostly there to throw webbing. That would sorely hamper and kage bunshin coming at him.

Kido is my main support here. All he has to do is capture people. It would most likely take a form of elemental jutsu or the focus to release chakra to cut the strings. Either way it will either be a waste of a jutsu or take time to focus.

Also have we ever seen Sarutobi cast a high level genjutsu?

While I'm certain he would know some, we still don't know what he would cast nor how it would effect my characters. So that is leaving way too many variables.

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 10:09 PM

As if my Sarutobi wouldn't make a Kage bunshin to counter Kakashi's?

.
This was not part of your initial strategy. And your Sarutobi is under my Sarutobi’s Genjutsu.
By the time he releases the genjutsu. Shin Kakashi will be hidden, and the clone Kakashi will be off to hunt down your genins (if not already). Lets not forget that, either my Sarutobi or Tsunade intercepts for a one on one.

Also Oboro is depending on making Bunshins as a distraction from a distance. Kido is mostly there to throw webbing. That would sorely hamper and kage bunshin coming at him.

To begin with his Bunshins have no substance like a Kage Bunshins. Its essential Genin rank vs. Jounin rank. And Sharingan can see trough it no problem. Finally, how long before either can perform a proper Kai for the Genjutsu?

Also have we ever seen Sarutobi cast a high level genjutsu?

While I'm certain he would know some, we still don't know what he would cast nor how it would effect my characters. So that is leaving way too many variables.
I have not seen Sarutobi cast a genjutsu on panel.
I am only going by his reputation for being well versed in all forms of jutsus and his stats implying he has extensive knowledge of genjutsu.

Which is why I assume he can perform one.

eDyH

06-23-2007, 10:15 PM

I have not seen Sarutobi cast a genjutsu on panel.
I am only going by his reputation for being well versed in all forms of jutsus and his stats implying he has extensive knowledge of genjutsu.

Which is why I assume he can perform one.

I'm pretty sure it was agreed that Sarutobi is limited only to the jutsu he's shown on panel. Otherwise, he would be far too powerful for the Low Kage tier, as his reputation states that he knows every jutsu in Konoha.

Distracted

06-23-2007, 10:18 PM

Hmm then I guess Genjutsu is out? Either way you're assuming my Sarutobi would be caught in that genjutsu... which only helps me more.

A powerful Elemental technique flying his way will either break your sarutobi's attention, make him dodge, and let mine go back to doing what he's doing...

or you're in a world of hurt.

Either way I don't think the genjutsu is allowed, but I'll wait till we get others opinions before I make that claim.

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 10:19 PM

I'm pretty sure it was agreed that Sarutobi is limited only to the jutsu he's shown on panel. Otherwise, he would be far too powerful for the Low Kage tier, as his reputation states that he knows every jutsu in Konoha.

I must have overlooked it. Can you point me to the post.
My intentions ware not to call upon any jutsu I can think off from Leaf Village.
(In other words abuse it).

But I did think it was well within reason he would be capable of performing a genjutsu similar to Kakashi when he first took in Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke.

Distracted

06-23-2007, 10:23 PM

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 10:33 PM

Hmm then I guess Genjutsu is out? Either way you're assuming my Sarutobi would be caught in that genjutsu... which only helps me more.

I am waiting for that agreement. I was reading the entire, tournament discussion. It was brought up but it was not necessarily addressed.
As far as I know, it was not to be abused. And this is of course Old Sarutobi, no Shiki Fuujin or Monkey Kuchiyose.

A powerful Elemental technique flying his way will either break your sarutobi's attention, make him dodge, and let mine go back to doing what he's doing...

or you're in a world of hurt.

True, but you still have Tsunade to worry about and cover Sarutobi.

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 10:38 PM

That genjutsu was only used on Sakura and so far we have never seen an 'AoE' genjutsu except for Kabuto's that put everyone to sleep. (I'm not 100% certain on that, but I really don't feel like going through the ENTIRE manga)

And that, from 40 meters away, could be deflected by a simple 'Kai'.

That’s the one. Something generic like the one used on Sakura, only targeting your team.

Well true But first ,one must know it’s a genjutsu Sarutobi is about to perform. Only your Sarutobi would know of that, and he is busy performing his jutsu on Kakshi. Other then that, one must recognize its an illusion and release it (kai).

Distracted

06-23-2007, 10:39 PM

That's Kakuzu's job.

And people don't have to KNOW the Genjutsu to dispell it. They just have to reverse their chakra. Something my Sarutobi should be more than capable of doing.

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 10:47 PM

That's Kakuzu's job.

And people don't have to KNOW the Genjutsu to dispell it. They just have to reverse their chakra. Something my Sarutobi should be more than capable of doing.
Yup Kakuzu job is to attack as to Tsunade is to defend.

I agree that their are several forms of de-spelling a Genjutsu. But I disagree. characters just reverse thier charka, unless they are aware a Genjutsu is taking effect. Coincidently in your strategy you have your Sarutobi preoccupied with Kakashi to know, my Sautobi performed a Genjutsu.

Distracted

06-23-2007, 10:50 PM

Kakashi and Gai had no pre-knowledge of Kabuto's jutsu. If you're arguing that Sarutobi could use it, then the other Sarutobi could counter it.

Tit for Tat. Especially since my Kakuzu, who is quite quick, will be going for Your Tsunade and your Sarutobi shortly.

I'll concede that your sarutobi (if it is allowed) will get that jutsu off, and that Tsunade can guard him long enough for it...

But kakuzu has 5 hearts... 4 of which will be helping him shortly in this fight. He is a VERY good distraction.

I still don't see how your pre-skip Kakashi will manage to out do my Sarutobi though. Especially since that's who he is chasing.

Genis-Vell

06-23-2007, 11:00 PM

Kakashi and Gai had no pre-knowledge of Kabuto's jutsu. If you're arguing that Sarutobi could use it, then the other Sarutobi could counter it.

Right, but I do think they first became aware of it being a genjutsu, before feeling its full effect. Thus releasing it (Kai). I am not to sure >_>.

Tit for Tat. Especially since my Kakuzu, who is quite quick, will be going for Your Tsunade and your Sarutobi shortly.

I'll concede that your sarutobi (if it is allowed) will get that jutsu off, and that Tsunade can guard him long enough for it...

But kakuzu has 5 hearts... 4 of which will be helping him shortly in this fight. He is a VERY good distraction.

.

I have no rebuttal for this. I agree.

I still don't see how your pre-skip Kakashi will manage to out do my Sarutobi though. Especially since that's who he is chasing.
Oh because this is ware I am not sure what will happen next from my initial overview.

Say the Genjutsu is set. I would think this would give Kakashi just enough time to hide and perform a kage clone.

From here 2 things happens,
A) Tsunade continues to engage Kazuku with her small window of opportunity for a strike, (our 3rds engage in MOOORRRRTTTAAALLLL KKKOOOMMMBBBAATTT).
B) Tsunade lets Sarutobi take over Kazuku. Tsunade engages your Sarutobi.

But I am aware that there are variables.

Distracted

06-23-2007, 11:02 PM

Ah, I feel Kakuzu wouldn't let your Sarutobi get away, I also feel Kidomaru could catch anyone off guard with that web (No one has any serious knowledge of his abilities.)

Though you are right, there are variables that could happen. I don't agree with the Sarutobi mortal combat though... but I kind of have to disagree heh.

Though honestly, just in case you win. I'd seriously consider looking at Kyon's team. I'm already furiously writing down strategies to see how I could win.

Kyon

06-24-2007, 07:37 PM

After a very long 24 hours, Distracted comes out on top, 5-4.

Winner: Distracted (Team Lionized)

Distracted

06-24-2007, 07:38 PM

I'm kinda saddened that we didn't get to finish the genjutsu debate...

good match Id. As I said before, if I had lost to your team I wouldn't have felt bad.

kojak488

06-24-2007, 08:18 PM

And here I was worried that Distracted would lose because people weren't reading the teams properly. Good job Distracted and good luck in your later matches.

Distracted

06-24-2007, 08:50 PM

I do believe this is the first time there has ever been so many people who have misinterpreted the characters in a single match.

It's really weird.

Genis-Vell

06-24-2007, 11:20 PM

*Sigh* (if only I had debated my points earlier, during the week):can

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91euxMQ0Zyg

kojak488

06-24-2007, 11:35 PM

Perhaps you needed more :yar emoticons too?

:leepose

Genis-Vell

06-25-2007, 09:11 PM

Perhaps you needed more :yar emoticons too?

:leepose

My personal Icon (: id = :id)...I only use those when I am in the zone (Id factor kicks in). I was more or less testing out several variables.

In any case Ill simply write a small report from analyzing different points of perspectives.

And I notice a few things. Kazuku is overestimated while Tsunade is underrated.
Reasons
Kazuku's speed and Donton.
Knowledge and information.

Speed
Tsunade speed is formidable.
She attacked Orochimaru..and Orochimaru doged it. But its Orochimaru after all. He is vary slithery to say the least. And a Kage level nin.

It took Kabuto a soldier pill to compete on Tsunades Taijutsu level.
http://devilbox.dead.org/n/161-170/164/164-07.jpg
As we all know Kabuto is a respectable Jounin on Kakashi level.
http://devilbox.dead.org/n/161-170/164/164-12.jpg
(Funny she still caught Kabuto off guard, despite being hindered).

After all, she did jump up in the air with Gambutas knife to stab Manda. Manda
http://devilbox.dead.org/n/161-170/170/Naruto%20c170%20p17.jpg

Kazukus Donton.
Granted, Donton body armor is a great form of defense. Hard to overcome.
But their weak points. Especially the affinity to lighting and electricity.
How does this factor in Tsunade? Ranshinshou.

Ranshinshou - Chaotic Mental Collision
Ranshinshou is a Ninjutsu technique used by the Sannin Tsunade. Changing the chakra in her hand into an electricity, Tsunade can create an electric field to disrupt her targets nervous system. Because the brain and body communicate using electrical impulses, Tsunade can use the field to disrupt her targets ability to move. What results is commands to move one body part being relayed to another, making it near impossible for them to move unless they have high skill and understanding of the body.

http://devilbox.dead.org/n/161-170/164/164-14.jpg
http://devilbox.dead.org/n/161-170/164/164-15.jpg

Tsuande needs a single blow. And given the nature of the attack, and the rock, paper, sciccer effect in reference to nature affinity (lightening>rock or some crap). It should by pass Kazukus donton body armor.
And effect his nervous system. This is a huge advantage.

One - Donton is not going to provide the wall of protection.

Two - If his nervous system is out of order, he if not as proficient. This leaves him open from various attacks. It takes a vary talented medic to overcome partial effects. Kazuku has not bin shown or described to be a medical talent of Current Sakura, Chiyo, Tsunade or Kabuto. So I am incline to believe he can pull of a quick recovery ala Kabuto.

Information.
Low Kage – 25 points
Tsunade (no blood phobia)

As you can see Tsunade is not restricted. And can use the most up to date given the chapter limitations for the trial tournament.
Some thing that is overlooked. The vast detail reports are written, when mission’s are completed.
I would think that Tsunade’s would give a certain priority when dealing with A and S rank missions.
And look into (in detail) of Akatsuki actions.

This means, She knows of Kazuku’s 5 hearts, Hidans weakness, Sasoris poisen and true form etc… just about anything a lower ranking leaf Shinobi had to report after their mission. And she just happens to be the highest ranking Leaf Shinobi.

What information does Kazuku have over Tsunade. His bounty information?
Even Orochimaru did not know what Tsunade was capable of…and this is former colleague, who keeps tabs on leaf village activities (um….more of an obsession).

Conclusion

So I would think that Tsunade is one of the few Nins in the Low Kage group that can bring up a fight in close range to Kazuku. Its vary possible that Kazuku is faster then Tsunade but not overwhelming faster.
And Tsunade is a tank, with an interesting Jutsu that jeopardizes Kazuku life all to gather. Having prior knowledge of Kazuku really helps tip the odds in favor.

I also notice, that Random character mashing (as long as it’s a strong or broken team) seems to be more favorable then. Prior history and team work....on good terms.

This analytic report was brought to you by;" The Demon of the OB" - Id Yar:id

Distracted

06-25-2007, 09:59 PM

I never once claimed Tsunade was slow, I just claimed she wasn't as fast as Kakashi.

Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi.

If anything Tsunade is FAR more likely to land a full on hit on Kakuzu which will be absorbed by the armor and such... but you're still forgetting what I was using him for.

He has 4 hearts to launch elemental techniques... he can launch any pair at Tsunade and then run at Sarutobi and slam the ground, causing him to move. It's distraction (my namesake!) and he's awesome at it.

Genis-Vell

06-25-2007, 10:28 PM

I never once claimed Tsunade was slow, I just claimed she wasn't as fast as Kakashi.

Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi.

Reconsider your claim.
She is not slow. But she is slower then Kakashi and Kazuku is faster then Kakshi.
That would place her below Kakshi and definitely below Kazuku.

Thus give me the impression of a slow character.

Despite taking on Orochimaru, Surprising Manda, and taking on an amped up Kabuto.

If anything Tsunade is FAR more likely to land a full on hit on Kakuzu which will be absorbed by the armor and such... but you're still forgetting what I was using him for.

I am not forgetting what you are using him for. Distraction, but you have to consider what my characters are their for, Annihilation.

However, what you and some other members keep overlooking other variables.
A - Tusnades knowledge over Kazuku.
B - The effects of Ranshinshou over Kazuku’s Donton Armor.

He has 4 hearts to launch elemental techniques... he can launch any pair at Tsunade and then run at Sarutobi and slam the ground, causing him to move. It's distraction (my namesake!) and he's awesome at it.
That’s one possibility.
But we have to keep in mind that, 3 chuunins and Kakashi have dogged and intercepted his attacks before.
I am confident two Kages can do the same and more.

His or your goal would be distraction, but the consequences of his actions can differ and branch off.

Distracted

06-26-2007, 07:20 AM

Yes I know, but I'm certain Kakuzu wouldn't think that he could take on Tsunade and Sarutobi in a fair fight. There's no way in hell.

Kabuto is physically slower than Kakashi. Surprising Manda when you're much smaller than him and have the advantage of a giant slug to help distract him doesn't surprise me.

Once again Tsunade isn't SLOW. I just claimed slower than Kakashi... and not by a large amount either. She will be more than capable of dodging his attacks by herself when she doesn't have 2 chuunin to guard.

However, neither she nor Sarutobi are going to be able to go running past him to get to Kakashi... and I don't personally think Kakashi will last that long against Sarutobi.

If the fight between Kakashi and Sarutobi would last any decent length of time I will give you that eventually Tsunade or Sarutobi will break away. That was the argument I expected to have with you which is why I was really kind of shocked at the direction this debate went.

Kakuzu or Sarutobi could both cast large elemental jutsu which would cause hte team to split up. Both can't be countered at the same time. Kido has the element of surprise with his attacks.

and also you're right, tsunade has some knowledge of Kakuzu... but she doesn't have an immense knowledge of him. She never fought him. That's not as crippling as say... hearing about Hidan second hand. It's just that she knows he'll steal hearts and that he can use elemental combinations.

Kakuzu knows just as much about your entire team, more in Kakashi's case.

Also if you want my idea of a slow character... I'm thinking an average speed ninja is like Shikamaru/Naruto. A relatively fast character would be someone like Sasuke/Lee during the chuunin exams (after Sasuke trained with Kakashi).

after that it gets a little more hairy. I know Kakashi (and Gai) are faster than an unweighted Lee... but to what extent? Kakuzu is roughly as fast as Kakashi... but there is one thing that pushes him over the edge.

He can Shunshin. That's why he's faster than Kakashi. Kakashi doesn't shunshin in the heat of battle for some reason.

Tsunade is probably somewhere around unweighted Lee's speed. She's not slow by any means... but she's not a speed beast.

Hell Sarutobi and her combined will make it difficult for Kakuzu to hold them in place... but it's his hearts and the craters he can make with Tsunade that will throw the whole thing into chaos.

They can't outrun him though. That's the thing. Given more than a few minutes and they would definitely get by him and help out Kakashi (Assuming that's your goal right? Have Sarutobi help out Kakashi and Tsunade fight Kakuzu?)

Sarutobi will most likely man handle pre-skip Kakashi. Especially with annoying bunshins to avoid and Kido's webs getting in the way. Sarutobi will have back up with that webbing. I think Sarutobi is a little slower than Kakashi, which is why I gave him Kido as back up. That is the deciding factor... with that webbing around Chidori becomes a serious risk to use. Sarutobi and Kakuzu will have a strong knowledge of Kakashi's abilities and will be planning for it.

Kakashi will be dead before any real support can get to him. Sarutobi will be winded, but he'll still be going.

After that I'll gladly let the Sarutobi's go at it. with the back up it won't be a short fight... and if your Sarutobi ends up on top (he'll be fresher) he'll be much to tired to help Tsunade (if she's even still alive)

my Kakuzu will have a long hard fight with Tsunade, and you're right her medical scrambling attack will be a huge risk... however even with the Doton armor I don't think Kakuzu wants to give Tsunade any chance of landing a blow on him at all.

I'm certain that Kakuzu would take out Tsunade by landing punches and throwing her off balance with Elemental Jutsu (she has shown no counter to elemental jutsu, she'd just dodge from what's in the manga.)

This means Kakuzu will have the upperhand in defense, speed, and jutsu. Your Tsunade only has a relatively large strength gap, and she has maybe a bit more endurance (Genesis Rebirth still requires a lot of chakra to maintain)

Kakuzu will win a very hard fought battle with Tsunade (Tentacle rape)

This leaves a tired Kakuzu versus a tired Sarutobi... but Sarutobi just fought himself with some annoying back up fighting against him as well. Sarutobi doesn't have the endurance to carry on.

Kakuzu tanks this fight for me basically.

Genis-Vell

06-26-2007, 10:42 PM

Yes I know, but I'm certain Kakuzu wouldn't think that he could take on Tsunade and Sarutobi in a fair fight. There's no way in hell.

Kabuto is physically slower than Kakashi. Surprising Manda when you're much smaller than him and have the advantage of a giant slug to help distract him doesn't surprise me.

Kabuto took a soldier pill to augment his physical attributes (just to compete).
Manda attempted a surprise attack on Gambuta, and Tsunade countered by surprising him in mid air…with Gambuta’s blade. This counters the offset of being much smaller when you are carrying such a big item on you. That’s impressive.

However, neither she nor Sarutobi are going to be able to go running past him to get to Kakashi... and I don't personally think Kakashi will last that long against Sarutobi.

If the fight between Kakashi and Sarutobi would last any decent length of time I will give you that eventually Tsunade or Sarutobi will break away. That was the argument I expected to have with you which is why I was really kind of shocked at the direction this debate went.

Kakuzu or Sarutobi could both cast large elemental jutsu which would cause hte team to split up. Both can't be countered at the same time. Kido has the element of surprise with his attacks.

Kido and Oboro are vastly outranked in just about all terms. That’s why I expected our Sarutobis unleashing their jutusus would take priority above anything Kido or Oboro attempt to do.

Hence the flow of the battle based on strategic clashing among our groups.

and also you're right, tsunade has some knowledge of Kakuzu... but she doesn't have an immense knowledge of him. She never fought him. That's not as crippling as say... hearing about Hidan second hand. It's just that she knows he'll steal hearts and that he can use elemental combinations.

Kakuzu knows just as much about your entire team, more in Kakashi's case.

One of the key factors that members brought up was lack of knowledge in my team.
Mostly due to the fact that this is pre-time skip Kaashi vs. Kazuku.
And Tsunade only knowing what she can from the autopsy.

But farther investigation points out that she knows a lot more (overall) then we might have originally thought.

This would be the minimum amount of information Tsunade would know of Kazuku.
http://devilbox.dead.org/n/331-340/339-/07.jpg
http://devilbox.dead.org/n/331-340/339-/08.jpg

That was just a briefing of the situation from Kakashi.
Tsunade would count on individual reports from Kakshi, Yamamoto, Sai, Naruto, Shikamaru, Sakura, Ino, and Choji. I assume their reports would not be a brief.

What information can Kazuku count on about Tsunade? I doubt he would recognize Ranshinshou. Or be fully aware of what Tsunade is capable off.

Knowledge over Kakshi and Sarutobi is more then fair game. I have no rebuttal to those claims.

Hell Sarutobi and her combined will make it difficult for Kakuzu to hold them in place... but it's his hearts and the craters he can make with Tsunade that will throw the whole thing into chaos.

They can't outrun him though. That's the thing. Given more than a few minutes and they would definitely get by him and help out Kakashi (Assuming that's your goal right? Have Sarutobi help out Kakashi and Tsunade fight Kakuzu?)

My goal was to spam a genjutsu at the start of the battle over all your characters, to hide Kakshi. Kill of the genins and segregate the elite nins.

I simply put aside the idea and concentrated on a: “What If”, Kazuku attempted to take on Tsunade and Sarutobi.
Obviously the 3rd would play keep up with ninjutsu arts and Tsunade would attempt to bring the fight up close.

If Tsunade lands a blow after the Donton armor is activated, Kazuku losses control of his body.
If Tsunade lands a blow before the Donton armor is activated…well same as above only this time he is much more vulnerable. This is because performing hand seals would become difficult to perform…when the nervous system has bin meddled with.

Sarutobi will most likely man handle pre-skip Kakashi. Especially with annoying bunshins to avoid and Kido's webs getting in the way. Sarutobi will have back up with that webbing. I think Sarutobi is a little slower than Kakashi, which is why I gave him Kido as back up. That is the deciding factor... with that webbing around Chidori becomes a serious risk to use. Sarutobi and Kakuzu will have a strong knowledge of Kakashi's abilities and will be planning for it.

Kakashi will be dead before any real support can get to him. Sarutobi will be winded, but he'll still be going.

This is “If” my genjutsu plan fails and the baises of my stratagey starts to crumble.
But not to underestimate Kakashi. He did perform well against Kazuku and Hidan dual team up.
And they are Elite Jounin well versed in co-op team work, unlike I Elite Jounin and 2 genins with no prior history or knowledge of one another.

After that I'll gladly let the Sarutobi's go at it. with the back up it won't be a short fight... and if your Sarutobi ends up on top (he'll be fresher) he'll be much to tired to help Tsunade (if she's even still alive)

my Kakuzu will have a long hard fight with Tsunade, and you're right her medical scrambling attack will be a huge risk... however even with the Doton armor I don't think Kakuzu wants to give Tsunade any chance of landing a blow on him at all.

If my strategy fails.
The core of my argument is lost and my team would be obliterated.

Kakashi is meant to give a finishing blow on Sarutobi. And thus overwhelm Kazuku on a 3 vs. 1 team up.