The Fire Nation vs The Land Of Fire

[Estrecca]

Due to the convoluted activities of the Plot Gods, the Fire Nation from Avatar has appeared to the east of the Shinobi nations from Naruto. After considering the change of sorroundings for a little while, the Fire Lord shrugs and decides to send forth his armies of conquest against these new territories.

Obviously, this doesn't sit too well among the inhabitants of the shinobi nations, including the people of Konoha. How does this go?

[Juubi]

Konoha wins in a rape.
Fire Nation goes back home, bloodied and beaten.

[TWF]

If this is Konoha in its prime then the Sannin, White Fang, Yondaime, Prime Sandaime, the rest of the Hokages (barring Godaime), Uchiha and Hyuuga Clan absolutely slaughter them.

[Giovanni Rild]

The Fire Nation by pure number and tech

[masamune1]

Due to the convoluted activities of the Plot Gods, the Fire Nation from Avatar has appeared to the east of the Shinobi nations from Naruto. After considering the change of sorroundings for a little while, the Fire Lord shrugs and decides to send forth his armies of conquest against these new territories.

Obviously, this doesn't sit too well among the inhabitants of the shinobi nations, including the people of Konoha. How does this go?

The Land of Fire is a country, housing only the Village Hidden in the Leaves (Konoha). The other "shinobi nations" are the Lands of Water, Grass, Wind, Rain, Waterfall, Rock, Lightning and Rice, housing the Villages Hidden in the Mist, Grass, Sand, Rain, Waterfall, Stones, Clouds and Sound, respectively.

In other words, do you mean all of these countries and villages take up arms against the invading Fire Nation, or just the actual Land of Fire Hidden Leaf Village? If the former, then the ninja's win, without too much trouble. If the latter, then through force of numbers I'll give it to the Fire Nation.

[TWF]

The Fire Nation by pure number and tech

The average Uchiha and Hyuuga > average Fire Bender. You don't think the Sannin or any of the Hokages or TWF can't take on Zuko,Iroh, ect...? And the Hidden Leaf have technology.

Superior wireless comunication technology....lol.

[Estrecca]

In other words, do you mean all of these countries and villages take up arms against the invading Fire Nation, or just the actual Land of Fire Hidden Leaf Village? If the former, then the ninja's win, without too much trouble. If the latter, then through force of numbers I'll give it to the Fire Nation.

The ultimate goal of the Fire Nation in this is world conquest, but initially they are landing in the Land of Fire with Konoha enjoying most of the initial fun, although they can call upon whatever allies they happen to have. As for timeframe... I'm going to risk making some kind of mistake and state that this happens under the rule of the Yondaime Hokage, instead of the Kyubi rampage. Suppose that the Fox is in hibernation elsewhere for the duration of this war.

[Juubi]

Also, if this takes place around the time Kyuubi wreaked havoc on Konoha, who's to say that it wouldn't spot some invading machines and solo the Fire Nation just for fun?

[Juubi]

The ultimate goal of the Fire Nation in this is world conquest, but initially they are landing in the Land of Fire with Konoha enjoying most of the initial fun, although they can call upon whatever allies they happen to have. As for timeframe... I'm going to risk making some kind of mistake and state that this happens under the rule of the Yondaime Hokage, instead of the Kyubi rampage. Suppose that the Fox is in hibernation elsewhere for the duration of this war.

Damn, my computer lagged and your post showed up first.

Well, I'm willing to bet that Yondaime could solo the entire royal family.

[Giovanni Rild]

If this is Konoha in its prime then the Sannin, White Fang, Yondaime, Prime Sandaime, the rest of the Hokages (barring Godaime), Uchiha and Hyuuga Clan absolutely slaughter them.

Fire Nation has Tanks

[The last Dalek]

rild The fire nation dont have superior tech Konoho have computers sakuraty cameras and wireles comuneicators.

[Giovanni Rild]

rild The fire nation dont have superior tech Konoho have computers sakuraty cameras and wireles comuneicators.

That is useless in a war.


Tanks are useful in a war.

[TWF]

That is useless in a war.


Tanks are useful in a war.

Kyuubi, Summons > tanks.

Wireless communication > Fire Bending. :nuts

[freshfresku!!!]

There are like 5 or 7 jounins in konoha that can solo the entire fire nation.

[Giovanni Rild]

Kyuubi, Summons > tanks.

Wireless communication > Fire Bending. :nuts

The ultimate goal of the Fire Nation in this is world conquest, but initially they are landing in the Land of Fire with Konoha enjoying most of the initial fun, although they can call upon whatever allies they happen to have. As for timeframe... I'm going to risk making some kind of mistake and state that this happens under the rule of the Yondaime Hokage, instead of the Kyubi rampage. Suppose that the Fox is in hibernation elsewhere for the duration of this war.

Kyuubi isn't involved and enough shots will take the summons down.

There are like 5 or 7 jounins in konoha that can solo the entire fire nation.

You have no idea how big the fire nation is. That's complete bullshit.

[Robotkiller]

Fire nation is WAY bigger than fire country.

Plus, their technology is way above that of konoha's (Tanks and hot air balloons).

[TWF]

Ah. Well you do understand that there are hundreds of hundreds of ninja's in the Hidden Leaf right?

[Giovanni Rild]

Ah. Well you do understand that there are hundreds of hundreds of ninja's in the Hidden Leaf right?

Compared to the Fire Nation's thousands upon thousands

[TWF]

Quality over Quantity. How many fodder fire-benders would it take to down Kakashi alone?

A fully Gated Gai could probably kill a couple hundred.

[Giovanni Rild]

Quality over Quantity. How many fodder fire-benders would it take to down Kakashi alone?

A fully Gated Gai could probably kill a couple hundred.

Gai can't take a Tank. It would be a stretch to say Kakashi can penetrate one.

[Kai]

If we are including deceased shinobi, the Yondaime can literally plow through hundreds of soldiers with Hiraishin and your standard bender won't have the sufficient reaction time to do much about it.

And I don't usually ride off his feat so casually.

Boss summons frown upon Ozai.

[TWF]

Gai can't take a Tank. It would be a stretch to say Kakashi can penetrate one.

Gai in his base form at his weakest was punching people through four or five feet walls of concrete.

Do you understand how physically strong he is if you add in the Gates? That's well above like class 20 strength. He would be simply lightly punch a tank and it would explode.

[Giovanni Rild]

Gai in his base form at his weakest was punching people through four or five feet walls of concrete.

Do you understand how physically strong he is if you add in the Gates? That's well above like class 20 strength. He would be simply lightly punch a tank and it would explode.

That's a big assumption. And steel is way more harder and more durable than concrete.

He has never punched through steel or anything equivalent to steel before, so he can't

[TWF]

We'll see when he dies in the manga. :notrust

[Superrazien]

Genjutsu pwns them.

[Ion]

Quality over Quantity. How many fodder fire-benders would it take to down Kakashi alone?

A fully Gated Gai could probably kill a couple hundred.But quality can still be overwhelmed by quantity.

Keep in mind that the average Konoha ninja won't be spamming S-ranked jutsu or boss summons. The few that can won't even be able to guarantee that the boss summon will actually listen to them. And no matter how powerful the summons are, they will eventually tire and be forced to go back to their own plane or risk being destroyed by the 100th tank that got lucky.

The Fire Nation can still send wave after wave of Firebenders and tanks long after summons are killed/dispersed and the few(relatively) shinobi fatigue or die.

And it's not like Firebenders are all that the Fire Nation have, since Mai is a classic example that ninja techniques aren't a foreign concept to them.

Not to mention that rarely have any benders at all shown anything resembling "bending fatigue". Basically, they're able to use their techniques again and again. The one time that I can remember ever seeing a bender anywhere close to being fatigued is when Toph held up a massive, multi-roomed and tiered library with her powers for an extended period of time, and she wasn't even all that tired.

[Wiser Guy]

Genjutsu pwns them.

Rild and White Fang, you two were arguing for so long yet you forgot this. Genjutsu could probably incapacitate dozens of fire nation warriors with a single shinobi.

Plus, Konoha shinobi could fight like the Vietnamese and own them using Guerrilla tactics.

[Ion]

Rild and White Fang, you two were arguing for so long yet you forgot this. Genjutsu could probably incapacitate dozens of fire nation warriors with a single shinobi.But they have entire fleets of benders.

Taking out dozens of Firebenders with genjutsu would only put some obstacles in the way of the other thousands of Firebenders in their army.

Let me put it in perspective for you guys. The Fire Nation was able to go to war with their entire world for 100 years, stretching their armies to fight three other nations at once. They were able to still train and have enough troops to keep up their campaign, to the point where they're almost ready to succeed.

[masamune1]

Since this is a mission of conquest (rather than there usual missions of genocide), the Fire Nation will not be seeking to destroy everything in sight. This will be there downfall, as it will give the ninja's the opportunity to wage a guerilla war against the invaders, something shinobi by their nature are well suited for.

So the Fire Nation will score initial successes, but then the ninja will bypass their numerical superiority by simply making the lives of their enemies hell.
Missions of sabotage and assassination will eventually be so harmful to the Fire benders that remaining in the Narutoverse would be the most fooloish strategic decision ever made.

[Dio Brando]

Konoha takes this in a stomp. Avatar has "stronger" attacks, but the ninjas are more versatile, faster, and naturally have more physical strength. They are also smarter.

[Ion]

Since this is a mission of conquest (rather than there usual missions of genocide), the Fire Nation will not be seeking to destroy everything in sight. This will be there downfall, as it will give the ninja's the opportunity to wage a guerilla war against the invaders, something shinobi by their nature are well suited for.

So the Fire Nation will score initial successes, but then the ninja will bypass their numerical superiority by simply making the lives of their enemies hell.
Missions of sabotage and assassination will eventually be so harmful to the Fire benders that remaining in the Narutoverse would be the most fooloish strategic decision ever made.The Fire Nation isn't a stranger to guile. :S

Remember how three of them were able to take over the Earth Kingdom in a matter of days?

The guerrilla warfare you're speaking about would be nothing more than a mere annoyance to them. Although I agree that henges and bunshins would be quite useful for Konoha if it ever came down to pure guerrilla warfare.

[The last Dalek]

Cant they just sumon Gamabunta and pwne the tanks.

[Giovanni Rild]

Cant they just sumon Gamabunta and pwne the tanks.

1,000 tanks>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gamabunta

[The Sentry]

^^No just No. Gamabnta>>>>>>>..............infinite 1000 tanks, they have to have over 9000 tanks to defeat him

[Giovanni Rild]

^^No just No. Gamabnta>>>>>>>..............infinite 1000 tanks, they have to have over 9000 tanks to defeat him

What makes you think Gamabunta can take being shelled?

[Gunners]

Compared to the Fire Nation's thousands upon thousands
No.s don't really matter, shown when Sasuke owned all of those ninjas.

The fire nation would lose hard, TKB from Naruto, Summons from Jiraiya and Tsunade, also that swamp technique. You have Shinos entire clan, the Hyuugas clan, Choujis clan etc.

[Giovanni Rild]

No.s don't really matter, shown when Sasuke owned all of those ninjas.

The fire nation would lose hard, TKB from Naruto, Summons from Jiraiya and Tsunade, also that swamp technique. You have Shinos entire clan, the Hyuugas clan, Choujis clan etc.

Numbers does matter when Konoha is facing a army.

[Ion]

As much as it pains me to admit this, how many ninja can claim to have a legendary ninja as a teacher, a genius' skill in combat, a doujutsu that gives allows them to see and react to attacks that they normally wouldn't be able to, and a curse seal that allows the user to use their powers to the max for long periods of time without fear of fatigue?

[Gunners]

Numbers does matter when Konoha is facing a army.
And I am saying quality means a lot ( like with Sasuke beating on 1000 people is beating a small army). Summoning beasts like Gamabunta and various slugs would whipe the fire nation out.
As much as it pains me to admit this, how many ninja can claim to have a legendary ninja as a teacher, a genius' skill in combat, a doujutsu that gives allows them to see and react to attacks that they normally wouldn't be able to, and a curse seal that allows the user to use their powers to the max for long periods of time without fear of fatigue?
Most Ninjas are Chounin or Jounin which puts them on a level equal to pretimeskip Naruto, or Naruto at the Chounin exam time. That is powerfull enough.

[Ion]

Most Ninjas are Chounin or Jounin which puts them on a level equal to pretimeskip Naruto, or Naruto at the Chounin exam time. That is powerfull enough.......to take out a force that is large enough to able to go to war with their entire world for 100 years, fighting three different armies and navies at once?

[Youngtotorofanboy]

Azlua's sxy ass solos.

[Gunners]

......to take out a force that is large enough to able to go to war with their entire world for 100 years, fighting three different armies and navies at once?
Considering the worlds forces are divided. If the entire world of Avatar attacked the fire nation together then they would win. You have probably seen the show long enough to realise how they opperate. If they take on concentrated areas they will lose.

Same with the Naruto situation, they would be clumped together meaning more would fall to huge attacks from summons and people like Jiraiya. TKB from people able to would also be a help.

[Ion]

But my main point is that their force is large enough that even with the heavy losses they would accumulate from fighting high level summons and jutsu, those summons would eventually wrack up injuries and fatigue to the point where they would fall or leave to their own plane of existence, and the ninja would eventually run out of chakra.

Konoha would lose to a war of attrition.

[Superrazien]

Rild and White Fang, you two were arguing for so long yet you forgot this. Genjutsu could probably incapacitate dozens of fire nation warriors with a single shinobi.

Plus, Konoha shinobi could fight like the Vietnamese and own them using Guerrilla tactics.

Well I was arguing if Genjutsus would work, they were saying it wont work. But in light of a thread where people say Genjutsu from Itachi will work on Krillin or Goku I think its safe to say it will work on the Avatarverse.

[Superrazien]

Rild and White Fang, you two were arguing for so long yet you forgot this. Genjutsu could probably incapacitate dozens of fire nation warriors with a single shinobi.

Plus, Konoha shinobi could fight like the Vietnamese and own them using Guerrilla tactics.

Well I was arguing if Genjutsus would work, they were saying it wont work. But in light of a thread where people say Genjutsu from Itachi will work on Krillin or Goku I think its safe to say it will work on the Avatarverse.

[~Shin~]

But quality can still be overwhelmed by quantity.

Not when the quality far surpasses the quantity

Keep in mind that the average Konoha ninja won't be spamming S-ranked jutsu or boss summons. The few that can won't even be able to guarantee that the boss summon will actually listen to them. And no matter how powerful the summons are, they will eventually tire and be forced to go back to their own plane or risk being destroyed by the 100th tank that got lucky.

The average Konoha ninja would still be capable of beating multiple benders by themselves. Not to mention, Naruto characters usually go in teams which makes it much harder for the benders to be effective against mulitple ninjas who are not only faster than them but good team skills can help them clear out a good amount of benders.

Gamabunta alone can wipe out 5-10 tanks in one shot by his water attack or just a simple sword slice. Or Jiraiya can combine his katon with Gamabunta's oil which would result in a massacre. Now add Katsuya which can basically seperate itself and quite easily just walk over hordes of benders. Manda could easily attack from underground and ambush a whole lot of benders. There won't be a 100th tank after the summons are done.

The Fire Nation can still send wave after wave of Firebenders and tanks long after summons are killed/dispersed and the few(relatively) shinobi fatigue or die.

Not really. In a war the main thing an opponent would try to do is destroy the leader which would result in dissention among the ranks. If that happens the ninjas can defeat them from the inside or can just send their own ninjas. It's not like the Fire Nation can send all their men in one day so they are also bound to rest up once in a while and concoct a plan.

And it's not like Firebenders are all that the Fire Nation have, since Mai is a classic example that ninja techniques aren't a foreign concept to them.

Not to mention that rarely have any benders at all shown anything resembling "bending fatigue". Basically, they're able to use their techniques again and again. The one time that I can remember ever seeing a bender anywhere close to being fatigued is when Toph held up a massive, multi-roomed and tiered library with her powers for an extended period of time, and she wasn't even all that tired.

No limits fallacy. The bending was actually said to fatigue them as Katara got fatigued once if I remember right.

[Ion]

I concede the fatigue thing.... >>

Anyway, Manda isn't even a factor, since Orochimaru isn't a Konoha shinobi. Katsuya can still be burnt. It's not like the firebenders are just going to sit there waiting to be smothered. They can channel their attacks.

Gamabunta's the real problem, since he's highly agile and Gamayu Endan is certainly large enough to take out a good number of tank platoons.... but will Gama be able to spam that technique? Doubtful, since he obviously has a limited amount of oil in his body.

He's still the main problem that I foresee, though.

It's not like the Fire Nation can send all their men in one day so they are also bound to rest up once in a while and concoct a plan.After realizing that they would be fighting a large toad that can take out entire platoons, they wouldn't be above giving their forces suicide missions in order to either distract him or to chip pieces off him little by little.

And the whole "infiltrate and kill the leader" thing I can buy, but that can go both ways, since as Azula has shown, the Fire Nation isn't a stranger to using guile and stealth. Nor are they bad at it.

And before anyone tries to counter with "They won't be able to kill the Hokage even if they manage to infiltrate her office".... let's be honest now, Tsunade spends a good deal of her time drunk and passed out.

[~Shin~]

Anyway, Manda isn't even a factor, since Orochimaru isn't a Konoha shinobi. Katsuya can still be burnt. It's not like the firebenders are just going to sit there waiting to be smothered. They can channel their attacks.

I assumed that it's Konoha Prime and they have thier best shinobis. I'll agree that Katsuya can be burnt but not before taking out quite a lot of benders.

Gamabunta's the real problem, since he's highly agile and Gamayu Endan is certainly large enough to take out a good number of tank platoons.... but will Gama be able to spam that technique? Doubtful, since he obviously has a limited amount of oil in his body.

That's not his only attack. If I'm not mistaken, Gamabunta's water spitting attack did considerable damage to the environment.

And the whole "infiltrate and kill the leader" thing I can buy, but that can go both ways, since as Azula has shown, the Fire Nation isn't a stranger to using guile and stealth. Nor are they bad at it.

Kill the Hokage? I severly doubt that the Fire Nation would be capable of that but it might be possible if Tsunade is left alone with no reinforcements.

And before anyone tries to counter with "They won't be able to kill the Hokage even if they manage to infiltrate her office".... let's be honest now, Tsunade spends a good deal of her time drunk and passed out.

That's during normal time. I doubt that she would be getting drunk when there's a war going about.


Also jutsus like Katon, suiton, fuiton would be capable of destroying at a wide range.

After realizing that they would be fighting a large toad that can take out entire platoons, they wouldn't be above giving their forces suicide missions in order to either distract him or to chip pieces off him little by little.

That might be possible but you would have to consider the mobility of Gamabunta. He can quite easily jump a considerable amount of distance to evade almost any attack the benders can use.

[RaTBoYs]

fire nation wins. they are a whole country of fire benders who has mastered martial arts.

naruto has villages with 10 to 15 ninjas good enough to make a difference.

[thegoodjae]

Avatar loses hard. The tanks are actually so easy to penetrate as they leave holes in the front. You do realise that the tanks attack only by fire benders attacking with them. They go no guns. Just things just as tanks and other protective vehicles but they attack with that fire. Jiraiaya solos this. One Hell Swamp for a massive army, and then get Gammabunta summon. Then just sit and watch.

Nothing the fire nation has is fast enough to hit a genin.

[RaTBoYs]

Avatar loses hard. The tanks are actually so easy to penetrate as they leave holes in the front. You do realise that the tanks attack only by fire benders attacking with them. They go no guns. Just things just as tanks and other protective vehicles but they attack with that fire. Jiraiaya solos this. One Hell Swamp for a massive army, and then get Gammabunta summon. Then just sit and watch.

Nothing the fire nation has is fast enough to hit a genin.

they have lightning. no one in naruto has speed to dodge lightning.

[TWF]

The lightning displayed in Avatar can be easily dodged by any ninja that has an actual name. It's not THAT fast. Although I would rate it more dangerous then the actual fire-bending itself.

What's to say that Kakashi can counter with his Raikiri? He supposedly cut a lightning bolt in half according to the hype in Naruto and the Databooks.

[Giovanni Rild]

The lightning displayed in Avatar can be easily dodged by any ninja that has an actual name. It's not THAT fast. Although I would rate it more dangerous then the actual fire-bending itself.

What's to say that Kakashi can counter with his Raikiri? He supposedly cut a lightning bolt in half according to the hype in Naruto and the Databooks.

Now this is getting silly. You didn't see Iroh's Lightning then. It arced across the sky in a flash.

This is nothing but fanwank on Naruto's side now.

[TWF]

Now this is getting silly. You didn't see Iroh's Lightning then. It arced across the sky in a flash.

This is nothing but fanwank on Naruto's side now.

All I'm saying is that Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half according to the manga with his Raikiri. What's the problem against doing the same to Iroh's Lightning?

[Giovanni Rild]

All I'm saying is that Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half according to the manga with his Raikiri. What's the problem against doing the same to Iroh's Lightning?

Kakashi himself dismissed that crap coming of Gai's mouth.

Iroh could probally drop hundreds of Chunin with that one move.

[TWF]

Kakashi himself dismissed that crap coming of Gai's mouth.

Kakashi dismisses everything from Gai in general.

Iroh could probally drop hundreds of Chunin with that one move.

Because their going to sit still and die right? I agree it'll take out some dozens of dozens of ninjas, but hundreds? That I doubt severely.

[NU-KazeKage]

ninjas take this ...for one summons , and dont forget yondaime could proably kill alot of them at the same time the giant swamps a bunch of people who can kill you by looking at you ... im pretty sure that no body from the fire nation would survive unless they gave up

[Giovanni Rild]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nj81tswoGA

[boss_of_akatsuki_leader]

This battle is even konoha have speed but fire nation have power so its even

[Kai]

they have lightning. no one in naruto has speed to dodge lightning.

Kakashi cut lightning with Raikiri. And can't your statement be used vice versa as well?

[Giovanni Rild]

Kakashi cut lightning with Raikiri. And can't your statement be used vice versa as well?

Kakashi never cut lightning. That's hyperbole.

[RaTBoYs]

Kakashi cut lightning with Raikiri. And can't your statement be used vice versa as well?

iroh could react to the lightning fast enough to redirect it somewhere else.

[Giovanni Rild]

aang dodged it before during his fight with azula. iroh could react to the lightning fast enough to redirect it somewhere else.

No he didn't He grabbed her hand before she fired it.

[RaTBoYs]

No he didn't He grabbed her hand before she fired it.

nevermind then.

[Kabuto]

Fire Nation would win simply because they had larger armies and technologies.

[Dio Brando]

Magic > tech
Guerilla warfare > big armies

[Kai]

None of them can tag the Yellow Flash.

[NU-KazeKage]

None of them can tag the Yellow Flash.

you win the thread lol :P

[Fenix]

Magic > tech
Guerilla warfare > big armies

Huh, what is this the law of the omniverse you just came up with?

No

[raibbhani]

Yondaime will destroy a pretty large number of Fire Nation soldiers. And summon Gamabunta. Jiraiya can use the swamp to halt some of the troops and their tank. After long hard battle i think Fire Nation could win.

[-Amaterasu-]

In a desperate situation, Konoha would release the powers of the scroll of forbidden seals.

Jiarya can use his swamp thing to destroy tanks, Gamabunto/Katsuyu could destroy tanks, Rasengan, KN4, Gai could Atleast pick put tanks and throw them and effectively disable them, throw an kunai /w explosive note into the barrel of a tank, I'm pretty just from the pure impact of a well placed Chidori could destroy a tank not that Kakishi would since he could so many other types of jutsu's against them.

[EdwardElric]

That is useless in a war.


Tanks are useful in a war.

lol, wireless communications are useless in a war? Tell that to the thousands of soldiers in Iraq who'd die without a wireless headset.

Communications play a HUGE part in war, obviously cartoons don't really depict that.

[HyperKnuckles22]

Dont Underestimate Konoha. ninjutsu>>>>>>>>Bending

[Lord10]

fire nation

they don't even need to get close they could just burn down their damn forest with their catapults:laugh and the ninjas in the village don't look as strong as the fire benders

[Robotkiller]

Dont Underestimate Konoha. ninjutsu>>>>>>>>Bending

But the fire nation's numbers >>>>>>>>> number of konoha shinobi.

[Gunners]

But the fire nation's numbers >>>>>>>>> number of konoha shinobi.
The adverage fire nation soldier is below the adverage Konohan ninja. Speed and powerwise. Considering someone like Sasuke can whoop the ass of 1000 Shinobi without killing them are suffering a scratch the no. isn't much of an issue when you factor the quality.

[Kubisa]

Isn't Konoha right in the middle of all the other ninja countrys? If so the fire nation won't get to Konoha without them knowing giving them prep-time and the fire nation will need to rest. Defending any area is easier than attacking, and with so much prep time I belive Konoha would have enough plans in place to win the battle.

If this was a head on head battle the Fire Nation would win, but in this scenario Konoha would take it.

[Robotkiller]

Terrain is also a big issue here.

If the fight takes place in konoha then the leaf would be screwed seeing as how they're surrounded by miles of dense forests. If the bender set fire to it then the leaf would be utterly screwed.

The adverage fire nation soldier is below the adverage Konohan ninja. Speed and powerwise. Considering someone like Sasuke can whoop the ass of 1000 Shinobi without killing them are suffering a scratch the no. isn't much of an issue when you factor the quality.
The fire nation solders are better protected (Heavy armor) and would be more prepared for an attack in this situation.

Plus, sasuke is one of the strongest shinobi in the narutoverse at this point. Comparing others to him isn't the greatest of comparisons to be making when most shinobis ARE fodder.

[Enclave]

lol, wireless communications are useless in a war? Tell that to the thousands of soldiers in Iraq who'd die without a wireless headset.

Communications play a HUGE part in war, obviously cartoons don't really depict that.

Have you been reading the current arc? That wireless communications range SUCKS. Not very useful at all.

Anyways, this belongs in the joke section as it is just such a massive curb stomp. Fire Nation just stomps the hell out of Konoha, their numbers are just too great, not to mention their fire unlike Katon's actually do damage.

[Dog Rapist]

As much as it pains me to admit this, how many ninja can claim to have a legendary ninja as a teacher, a genius' skill in combat, a doujutsu that gives allows them to see and react to attacks that they normally wouldn't be able to, and a curse seal that allows the user to use their powers to the max for long periods of time without fear of fatigue?

But you will also note that Sasuke didn't kill any if those ninja, meaning no jutsus. That kind of sheer pwnage bespeaks insane skill. Having said that, there are quite a number of shinobi within Konoha that can take out several hundred benders each. However, eventually the superior numbers of the Fire Nation will tell. If Konoha takes to the forests in a relatively timely manner, then I'd back them to make the Fire Nation rethink their options. Otherwise, a severely depleted Fire Nation takes this.

EDIT: I've changed my mind; I've been convinced by ~Shin~'s arguments.

[G-Man]

First things first. The thread starter stated this was Konohagakure (and the and of Fire) circa the Yondaime's reign, so they don't have Orochimaru (he already defected), they probably don't have Tsunade (I believe she has left already though I'm not 100% certain), and the invasion is happening instead of the Kyuubi attack. Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, Yamato, they are all mere teenagers at this point, though Kakashi is probably still in ANBU and Yamato may be in there as well. So we have little idea of what Konohagakure's elite are like at this point save that we know they have Yondaime, Jiraiya, and Sarutobi.

Secondly, to those who said the Fire Nation has been fighting three seperate empires for a 100 years, I ask "What empires?"

The Air Benders were nomads who lived throughout various temples scattered across the world (why they lived in temples and yet were called nomads I'll never know). They didn't have an army of any sort.

Same for the Water Benders. They are divided between the North and South Poles, and that one tribe in the swamp. Tehy ahve no army except for that one city at the North Pole, the rest are broken up into smaller tribes and scattered here and there in their respective parts of the world.

Only the Earth Nation had a standing army, and they were being led by a CIA spook-esque traitor who kept his emperor so misinformed that the guy didn't even know there had been a war going on for the last 100 years. Frankly I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did.

Thirdly, as for the Kakashi cutting lightning thing. Sakura and Ino were skeptical but Kakashi never said Gai was lying, or refuted it and he was standing right there listening to Gai explain Chidori to the kids. Plus, later on against Kakuzu, he moved in front of Shikamaru and Chouji and blocked two lightning bolts with a dual Raikiri, so odds are good that he actually can cut through lightning as long as he can anticipate it coming.

Now, back to the actual battle.

On paper the Fire nation is going to be dominating as they will always be gaining new territory and pushing the shinobi back, but in reality they are going to be getting killed from the inside out.

A war is so much more than mere up-front confrontations between troops on the battlefield.

Yondaime himself will likely assassinate Ozai without breaking a sweat, and then they'll assassinate anyone else who takes his place until the Fire Nation is locked in a bitter internal power struggle. Eventually, whomever is put in charge is going to think "Hmmm, maybe I should get the hell out of here before I die like the dozen other guys who came before me in the last five months." And that will end it there.

Henge, genjutsu, vastly superior speed, and information gathering techniques all assure that the Leaf nin will be able to sabotage and assassinate with impunity. Remember, they are dealing with enemies who ahve no way of combatting genjutsu or seeing through simple Henges.

They'll lose all the big battles due to sheer numbers, but because of their skill and greater healing methods (if anything other than Naruto could bring Tsunade back to Konoha it'd be an entire nation invading the entire country she was born in, and even without her they have good med-nins), they'll actually have lower casualty rates.

To make matters worse, since many ninja can use jutsu of different elements, the Fire Nation is going to think they are up against an army of Avatars! That combined with their massive death tolls and constant killing of their leaders will further demoralize them.

I can picture it now:

Fire Bender - HOLY S#!T!! That guy is using both fire and water bending! He's their world's version of the Avatar!!

Fire Bender #2 -HELP!!! This guy is throwing lightning and earth bending attacks at us!! He's an Avatar too!

Fire Bender - What?! Lightning?! That's the highest level of fire bending!

Fire bender #3 - They're all Avatars! Run for your lives!! We're fighting an army of Avatars!!!

Of course, they'll be forced back into battles by their leaders, and their confidence will be better once they win their first few battles, but they'll forveer be rattled by the sight of Konoha-nins (when they see them coming).

I have no doubt that they can make their way to Konoha and invade it, but not without taking massive losses, and their goal is to conquer all of the Land of Fire and the surrounding world. The Leaf nins will be forced to resort to guerilla warfare, but they will bring the Fire Nation down, and down hard.

Even worse, they have no info of this world, but the Leaf are great at info gathering, and will learn more about them than they do about the shinobi, allowing the Leaf nins to know exactly where to hit them where it hurts the most.

This is basically US vs Vietnam, if we weren't allowed to do any aerial bombing, and the Vietnamese had a whole bunch of street-level Marvel heroes (Jounin, ANBU, strong Chunin and exceptional Genin) fighting for them, with a small army of Hand ninjas (low-Chunins and average Genin) for back-up. In other words, a guerilla warfare rapestomp.

This is just Hidden Leaf keep in mind, ignoring any alliances they have (I think the treaty they had with Sand before the invasion was in effect at this time). If we add the other ninjas villages, who will surely see an entire nation of soldiers who can use Katon attacks without chakra as a threat, it becomes an even bigger rapestomp. A babyshake if you will.

[Wuzzman]

does the fire nation have tanks? Yes. Does the fire nation have enough soldiers to conquer most of the earth kindom (think NORTH AMERICA), obliterate the southern water tribe, and wage a speedy invasion of the north kingdom? Yes. Can the fire nation build superior tech on the fly? Obsolutely yes. If konoha beats the fire nation in 1 year in a full war then yes they win. But since thats not possible(based on numbers alone), then no. The fire nation has superior war technology, but not only that given a year, they could learn ninjustu. The worlds aren't that different, I can see Zuko easily learning grand fire ball, and combined with his natural almost bloodline limit for fire that all firebenders (there are a LOT of them by the way) have, I can see a new more powerful fire nation evolving after this war.

[Wuzzman]

First things first. The thread starter stated this was Konohagakure (and the and of Fire) circa the Yondaime's reign, so they don't have Orochimaru (he already defected), they probably don't have Tsunade (I believe she has left already though I'm not 100% certain), and the invasion is happening instead of the Kyuubi attack. Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, Yamato, they are all mere teenagers at this point, though Kakashi is probably still in ANBU and Yamato may be in there as well. So we have little idea of what Konohagakure's elite are like at this point save that we know they have Yondaime, Jiraiya, and Sarutobi.

Secondly, to those who said the Fire Nation has been fighting three seperate empires for a 100 years, I ask "What empires?"

The Air Benders were nomads who lived throughout various temples scattered across the world (why they lived in temples and yet were called nomads I'll never know). They didn't have an army of any sort.

Same for the Water Benders. They are divided between the North and South Poles, and that one tribe in the swamp. Tehy ahve no army except for that one city at the North Pole, the rest are broken up into smaller tribes and scattered here and there in their respective parts of the world.

Only the Earth Nation had a standing army, and they were being led by a CIA spook-esque traitor who kept his emperor so misinformed that the guy didn't even know there had been a war going on for the last 100 years. Frankly I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did.

Thirdly, as for the Kakashi cutting lightning thing. Sakura and Ino were skeptical but Kakashi never said Gai was lying, or refuted it and he was standing right there listening to Gai explain Chidori to the kids. Plus, later on against Kakuzu, he moved in front of Shikamaru and Chouji and blocked two lightning bolts with a dual Raikiri, so odds are good that he actually can cut through lightning as long as he can anticipate it coming.

Now, back to the actual battle.

On paper the Fire nation is going to be dominating as they will always be gaining new territory and pushing the shinobi back, but in reality they are going to be getting killed from the inside out.

A war is so much more than mere up-front confrontations between troops on the battlefield.

Yondaime himself will likely assassinate Ozai without breaking a sweat, and then they'll assassinate anyone else who takes his place until the Fire Nation is locked in a bitter internal power struggle. Eventually, whomever is put in charge is going to think "Hmmm, maybe I should get the hell out of here before I die like the dozen other guys who came before me in the last five months." And that will end it there.

Henge, genjutsu, vastly superior speed, and information gathering techniques all assure that the Leaf nin will be able to sabotage and assassinate with impunity. Remember, they are dealing with enemies who ahve no way of combatting genjutsu or seeing through simple Henges.

They'll lose all the big battles due to sheer numbers, but because of their skill and greater healing methods (if anything other than Naruto could bring Tsunade back to Konoha it'd be an entire nation invading the entire country she was born in, and even without her they have good med-nins), they'll actually have lower casualty rates.

To make matters worse, since many ninja can use jutsu of different elements, the Fire Nation is going to think they are up against an army of Avatars! That combined with their massive death tolls and constant killing of their leaders will further demoralize them.

I can picture it now:

Fire Bender - HOLY S#!T!! That guy is using both fire and water bending! He's their world's version of the Avatar!!

Fire Bender #2 -HELP!!! This guy is throwing lightning and earth bending attacks at us!! He's an Avatar too!

Fire Bender - What?! Lightning?! That's the highest level of fire bending!

Fire bender #3 - They're all Avatars! Run for your lives!! We're fighting an army of Avatars!!!

Of course, they'll be forced back into battles by their leaders, and their confidence will be better once they win their first few battles, but they'll forveer be rattled by the sight of Konoha-nins (when they see them coming).

I have no doubt that they can make their way to Konoha and invade it, but not without taking massive losses, and their goal is to conquer all of the Land of Fire and the surrounding world. The Leaf nins will be forced to resort to guerilla warfare, but they will bring the Fire Nation down, and down hard.

Even worse, they have no info of this world, but the Leaf are great at info gathering, and will learn more about them than they do about the shinobi, allowing the Leaf nins to know exactly where to hit them where it hurts the most.

This is basically US vs Vietnam, if we weren't allowed to do any aerial bombing, and the Vietnamese had a whole bunch of street-level Marvel heroes (Jounin, ANBU, strong Chunin and exceptional Genin) fighting for them, with a small army of Hand ninjas (low-Chunins and average Genin) for back-up. In other words, a guerilla warfare rapestomp.

This is just Hidden Leaf keep in mind, ignoring any alliances they have (I think the treaty they had with Sand before the invasion was in effect at this time). If we add the other ninjas villages, who will surely see an entire nation of soldiers who can use Katon attacks without chakra as a threat, it becomes an even bigger rapestomp. A babyshake if you will.

Does the United States care about civilians? Yes. We may "accidently" blow up a village or two but we ultimately can't run our tanks through peoples houses, without CNN going "Oh look at those poor babies, the brutality!!"

Does the fire nation care about civilians? No. They will destroy a villiage if they know guerillas are using it for information, supplies, shelter, whatever. They will burn it down without hestiating and enjoy doing so. Their ruthless and that is why they are STILL in most of the earth nation.

Guerilla warfare eventually loses because of lack of supplies and man power. You have to get new ammo and replace soldiers you lost, when you can't do that your losing the war. However in cases like Vietnam and Iraqi you have something special. In both cases the civilian population provides resources and manpower. Not only that but protection and intel. Without spending a dime, an insurgency can get all it needs to maintain a threat even against a superior army. As long as the civillians are willing (at least not unwilling or even able to say no) and able, there is a chance. However if the civillians are more scared of the invading army then the insurgency, or if they respect the invading army more then they do the home team, the the insurgency dies.

With Konoha, they may be able to keep up a war with the fire nation, simple because konoha has the respect of many towns in the fire country. However if forced into hiding, the civillian population will view the ninja's and distant and worthless. Because there is no doubt that the fire nation will be busy commiting autrocities while the ninja's are in hiding. Out of fear, the same respectful towns people will betray konoha to the fire nation, and as konoha quickly runs out of supplies and manpower they will be extinguished.

[Grandmaster Kane]

Holy shot When did rild get banned?

Anyway Firee nation > Land of fire simply from the ability to spam millions as apposed to hundreds

[thegoodjae]

lol, Kakashi solos.

What he does is go henge as a fire nation guard, find out who the main guard is. Kill him at night. Burn his body. Henge into him. Go to leader of fire nation. Kill him and burn his body. Bam, hes the leader. He then forces all weapons to be destroyed as an order of peace.

Decrees everyone to go to some valley or near it or else die. Then Jiraiya Hell Swamps and drowns people. He then also Hell swamps the entrance of the fire nation, thus making them resourceless.

Then its all just fun and games for Konoha's ninjas to go to their petting Zoo and kill everyone.

[Halcyon Days]

Itachi, Kakashi, and Yondaime, Chouji's dad, Shika's dad, and Ino's dad, along with all the Uchiha police force and Jiraiya do them. When it gets night time They are crushed.

[Suzumebachi]

Naruto wins. They are immune to fire.

[Wuzzman]

well naruto seems to be immune to fire...

[Banhammer]

Avatar Roku can beat any elemental jutsu. Tanks can beat everyone else.

[Guy Gardner]

does the fire nation have tanks? Yes.

When you say tanks, you mean crudely built, riveted tanks? Yeah, they do. We are talking archaic tanks. They aren't M-1s, or even comparable to Mark Vs. A doton opening a pit under them would stop them, explosive tags buried just beneath the dirt would as well.

Does the fire nation have enough soldiers to conquer most of the earth kindom (think NORTH AMERICA), obliterate the southern water tribe, and wage a speedy invasion of the north kingdom? Yes.

Read the post you quoted. You're overstating the Fire Nation's accomplishments.

Can the fire nation build superior tech on the fly? Obsolutely yes.

Uh, proof?

If konoha beats the fire nation in 1 year in a full war then yes they win. But since thats not possible(based on numbers alone), then no.

Numbers won't matter much due to the terrain we are dealing with Fire Country is filled with massive forests. Moving huge armies around, logistically, will cost more than it is worth. The fact that they'll mostly have to rely on roads (not knowing the local terrain) means that Konoha will absolutely destroy them at chokepoints.

Numbers don't win battles. Intelligence does. Unfortunately, you have the former but lack the latter.

The fire nation has superior war technology, but not only that given a year, they could learn ninjustu.

Welcome to the world of imagination. Who the hell is going to teach them ninjutsu? You?

Superior War technology? Debatable. The existence of ninjas in Naruto's world negates the need for tanks and other such things. They're more efficient, more versatile, and aren't hindered by terrain that would stop tanks. The fact that tanks require a crew, fuel, and repairing means that a ninja, from a logistical standpoint, is a much better, more efficient choice.

This 'superior technology' also ignores wireless radios, close-circuit cameras, and more advanced medicinal techniques (Soldiers pills, etc...) that Kohona has.

The worlds aren't that different, I can see Zuko easily learning grand fire ball,

Because you are retarded, and can't see the fact that no one will teach it to them. You can't learn something if you don't have someone to teach you.

and combined with his natural almost bloodline limit for fire that all firebenders (there are a LOT of them by the way) have, I can see a new more powerful fire nation evolving after this war.

Again, this is fantasy. "Almost bloodline limit"? What the heck are you talking about?

Does the United States care about civilians? Yes. We may "accidently" blow up a village or two but we ultimately can't run our tanks through peoples houses, without CNN going "Oh look at those poor babies, the brutality!!"

This is stupidity. You might not know this, but we cleared out, burnt down, and eliminated plenty of villages in Vietnam. It doesn't matter. Slaughtering villages only strengthens the enemy by driving more people into active service on their side.

Does the fire nation care about civilians? No. They will destroy a villiage if they know guerillas are using it for information, supplies, shelter, whatever. They will burn it down without hestiating and enjoy doing so. Their ruthless and that is why they are STILL in most of the earth nation.

So they are going to do this to every village? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of conquering people?

See, it's morons like you that don't understand that the strategy of "KILL EVERYONE!" isn't a great one unless you are just trying to exterminate people without any sort of gain. Plus, it only strengthens your enemy and makes resistance harder.

This also ignores the fact that after the first few villages, people will just retreat to the dense forests all around Fire Country. It's not like there aren't a lot of places to hide around here.

Guerilla warfare eventually loses because of lack of supplies and man power. You have to get new ammo and replace soldiers you lost, when you can't do that your losing the war.

Of course, this assumes that the Fire Nation instantly sweeps through everything and conquers everything quickly, which is highly unlikely. Besides the fact that due to easily retrieved weapons (Shurikens can be taken after battles, ambushes, etc...), the fact that ninjutsu and genjutsu don't use 'ammo', and that ninjas have specially made things such as soldier pills that can allow people eat very little and go for days really brings up problems for this. Konoha won't have much of a problem doing this.

You're also ignoring the fact that the Fire Nation would have to supply themselves as well. The logistics of an invasion are much larger than Konoha's requirements.

However in cases like Vietnam and Iraqi you have something special. In both cases the civilian population provides resources and manpower. Not only that but protection and intel. Without spending a dime, an insurgency can get all it needs to maintain a threat even against a superior army. As long as the civillians are willing (at least not unwilling or even able to say no) and able, there is a chance. However if the civillians are more scared of the invading army then the insurgency, or if they respect the invading army more then they do the home team, the the insurgency dies.

...

Do you know anything about anything?

First off, the ninjas aren't an 'insurgency'. They are a professional, highly-skilled military force completely separate of the civilian population. They don't live among the rest of Fire Nation, they aren't dependent on the rest of the Fire Nation. They are more comparable to the Green Berets and Navy Seals in Vietnam than to the Viet Cong.

The concept of hurting the civilian population to hurt them doesn't work because, for the most part, the ninjas are completely disconnected from them. That, and the fact that killing people who have no association with the ninja in the first place is only going to piss them off rather than scare them away from people that didn't depend on them in the first place. Heck, you might spark a civilian resistance instead.

With Konoha, they may be able to keep up a war with the fire nation, simple because konoha has the respect of many towns in the fire country.

As I discussed above, this doesn't mean anything.

However if forced into hiding, the civillian population will view the ninja's and distant and worthless. Because there is no doubt that the fire nation will be busy commiting autrocities while the ninja's are in hiding.

Conversely, this might only spark the Fire Nation into resisting more. And "Ninjas in hiding"? I don't see that happening. Yeah, they aren't going to be launching full-frontal assaults. But they'll be nailing them at every strategic point behind enemy lines before the Fire Nation can respond. You have to realize that the Fire Nation is a 'battle army' fighting an army built for stealth, mobility, and surgical engagement.

Out of fear, the same respectful towns people will betray konoha to the fire nation, and as konoha quickly runs out of supplies and manpower they will be extinguished.

This is some sort of Avatar wet dream. Konoha is largely self-sufficient, and it's own entity. Trying to hurt them by hurting the fire country is a losing strategy. G-Man had it exactly right, which is probably why you're post didn't respond to any of his points at all, and tried to make up some fantasy where the Fire Nation is simply able to do everything with impunity. Also, the idea that they can somehow betray Konoha in a way that they can hurt them (They still have to actually travel there, and they'll get absolutely massacred).

The Fire Nation is powerful in an open battle, but they aren't close to being as mobile or as elite as Konoha. Konoha can dictate the terms of the battles, cut their supply routes, ambush them along the few routes through the massive forests of Fire Country, and destroy their 'superior techology' while they are in their motor pools. Logistically, the Fire Nation, as an invading army, won't be able to hang on while Konoha decimates their resupply network while they futilely run around trying to engage an enemy they can't hope to catch.

[thegoodjae]

lol, I already said why Kakashi can partly solo this.