Trial Tournament 2 - Discussion

[Spell]

I think, perhaps, a Prayer is in order. That thread went through 172 pages for us, after all.

May God welcome you into Thread Heaven, you magnificent beast.
You served us well.

Amen.

Ok guys, I think we need establish stuff now.

Here are few important issues we should consider asap. Please quote, if you wish, and state your opinions/ideas.

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?

9. Other tier ideas (post your own)

High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu

Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Hidan
KN3 (before wind training)

Low Kage – 25 points
Post-Skip Kakashi
Chiyo
Tsunade (no blood phobia)
Naruto (after wind training, only KN0)
Old Sarutobi
Gai w/ 6 gates (time limited)
Weak Kakuzu (Only Raiton, Fuuton, Katon, no Iron Skin) - isn't he still too overpowered for Low Kage?

High Jounin – 20 points
Pre-Skip Kakashi
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma
30% Kisame
30% Itachi

Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Sick Kimimaro
Oro with no hands
Post Shikamaru

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Hayate

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Jirobou (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku

Mid Chuunin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam - CS not allowed?)
Pre Sasuke (FotD - CS allowed)
Drunk Lee

Low Chuunin – 4 points
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
Post Ino
Demon Brothers

High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misumi
Arkado Yoroi
Pre Chouji (SRA)

Mid Genin – 2 points
Base Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin

Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kagari
Muri
Oboro

[Law]

Ok guys, I think we need establish stuff now.

Here are few important issues we should consider asap. Please quote, if you wish, and state your opinions/ideas.

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?

Dupe teams allowable, 19 extra points given.

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]

I have no opinion on this.

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

Eventually as the tournament progresses, we'll want to be adding more to make larger teams. Do we want to start that now? Or do we want to wait for more Akatsuki? (I vote the latter)

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?

Do the trial ASAP. If it looks like we'll be able to add Hebi, Shino, Kiba, Hinata etc. afterwards...we can. NEVER put Tobi in. Ever. Ignore my fanboy sig/avvy for a sec here and listen to reason. You might as well make the atomic bomb a playable character.

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

No. Just seems silly. His iron skin makes him the beast he is. Without it, he's Saru/Kakashi

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

Starts IN KN3, and we have him at 40 points. And he keeps the necklace on at all times.

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)

See above. Keep it the way it is now, because not many will choose Yamato anyway. Later on, if we DO decide to have more points in this tournament, then we can start doing it a little differently. We can have the character list with assigned points, and then we can go to an inventory list and also purchase special abilities for them. Instead of having two separate entries, you could buy Yamato for 20 points as per usual...and then also purchase the rights for his necklace for 5 points in the inventory. Same would be for Chouji's pills, MS, Gates, etc. etc.

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?

I say we choose 10 places in the trial, and randomize those throughout the tourney. Let's get a bit more creative, who says we absolutely need to be in spots we know about? Have a few that no one has seen before, and thus no one has a terrain advantage unless specified by ability.

9. Other tier ideas (post your own)

High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
KN3 before wind, starts in tails

Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara (+5 points for C2 Dragon?)
Hidan
KN3 (before wind training)

Low Kage – 25 points
Post-Skip Kakashi
Chiyo
Tsunade (no blood phobia)
Naruto (after wind training, only KN0)
Old Sarutobi
Gai w/ 6 gates (time limited)
Weak Kakuzu (Only Raiton, Fuuton, Katon, no Iron Skin) - isn't he still too overpowered for Low Kage?

High Jounin – 20 points
Pre-Skip Kakashi
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma
30% Kisame
30% Itachi

Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Sick Kimimaro
Oro with no hands
Post Shikamaru

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Hayate

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Jirobou (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku

Mid Chuunin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam - CS not allowed?)
Pre Sasuke (FotD - CS allowed)
Drunk Lee

Low Chuunin – 4 points
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
Post Ino
Demon Brothers

High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misumi
Arkado Yoroi
Pre Chouji (SRA)

Mid Genin – 2 points
Base Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin

Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kagari
Muri
Oboro

That's it for me.

[Esponer]

Duplicate Teams
None. The first claimant to a team has that team, and no other contestants may choose the same team.

This is the simplest solution, and the most effective.

In Character Rules
I would determine character behaviour and knowledge in the following way. Characters have knowledge of battles they have fought and battles they have witnessed — they essentially have all knowledge their characters would have, including lore.

Characters behave as if they received 60 seconds' worth of instructions from the player and are loyal to the player. They will not take actions extremely contrary to their nature (such as sacrificing themselves so that another member of the team can become more powerful), but are expected to work to the best of their ability with members of their team, and try follow a simple strategy outlined by the player.

All characters battle seriously and play perfect games. A perfect game does not mean that their logic and skills are flawless, but that they are as perfect as possible for them. They will not have mercy, not pause when their enemies present openings, and will not severely underestimate or overestimate opponents. Bloodlust due to anger is not applied, as this bloodlust is really just perfect resolve for characters who rarely achieve perfect resolve: perfect resolve is expected of all characters here. (However, a special case is that if Naruto is battling with Sakura he may use the Kyūbi's power if she's endangered for in-character reasons, which is bloodlust beyond perfect resolve.)

Points per Team
70. Repeating the points per team of the last tournament will result in a nearly identical tournament, where Sasori–Shikamaru and Kakashi–Gai teams yet again appear and perform identically.

Also, teams with more than five characters should be somewhat discouraged, although not at any point forbidden. (In truth this is simply a good idea — more characters means less skilled characters, and this tournament's point system doesn't balance many less skilled characters against few strong ones.)

When
Trial Tournament 2 should begin shortly, and not include the newest characters. (I do believe some other characters can and should be allowed, however: allow Jiraiya based on the skills he's shown so far only.)

Character Concerns
Kakuzu should have two versions, one as is and a castrated version. Tailed forms of Naruto should be forbidden outside of the one-tailed at the Valley of the End, as they are source of far too much disagreement. For many users, tailed Naruto in Part II is above all the other legendary jōnin in the series. As for the necklace, Naruto can of course remove it.

Locations
Select an extensive list of many locations, and use a randomiser to choose a different location for every single match. Try to include a few enclosed locations too.

I'll comment on the tiers later.

[Law]

Your "perfect resolve" should not have had an exception for Naruto and Sakura. There IS no exception. You could say the same thing for Sasuke, Hinata, Ino or any other of Naruto's childhood friends depending on what your opinion is of their importance to him. Naruhina fans could then add Hinata to their list for the sole purpose of having her get killed and watch Naruto go crazy.

Bad idea.

If Naruto can take the necklace off, just take Yamato out of the tournament now, because he's useless.

Why does Kakuzu need a castrated version? I agree if he keeps his Iron skin and two other elements. If he doesn't get his iron skin, it's a waste of points.

[Hiruko]

I say you move down KN3 to mid kage, he isnt that strong. Also, maybe you could add KN4, although that might be too powerfull. Even higher kage 45 points perhaps? However that doesnt add much for teams. Lol, KN4 kin and zaku. I think he'd kill them. Oh, and maybe you could move up KN1 and CS2 sasuke.

EDIT - One more thing. Move down Hidan. He is NOT stronger that Sandaime hokage. Oh, and move down tsunade OR move up Sandaime.

[Esponer]

Your "perfect resolve" should not have had an exception for Naruto and Sakura. There IS no exception. You could say the same thing for Sasuke, Hinata, Ino or any other of Naruto's childhood friends depending on what your opinion is of their importance to him. Naruhina fans could then add Hinata to their list for the sole purpose of having her get killed and watch Naruto go crazy.
You misunderstand. It is likely in-character for Naruto to use the Kyūbi if something traumatic happens, and Sakura dying was an example. I suggest we do recognise that in battles if we used a Naruto who could use Kyūbi (but in that case, he could use it anyway). My point is that boosts in power from bloodlust don't exist unless the character had those boosts available to him and was avoiding them, in which case you could make a case for them being forced to use those powers if really angry.

If Naruto can take the necklace off, just take Yamato out of the tournament now, because he's useless.
Yamato is hardly useless. That said, I do think he's mid jōnin, and I think this tournament has an unfair bias to the highest three tiers. Plus, Naruto not being able to remove his necklace is senseless.

Why does Kakuzu need a castrated version? I agree if he keeps his Iron skin and two other elements. If he doesn't get his iron skin, it's a waste of points.
He doesn't need it, but why not? I certainly don't think kurogane karada should be forbidden, but if someone wants to play a Kakuzu without in, then good for them.

[Asuma: Konoha's Blade]

I pretty much agree with Eddy-sensei, except I think duplicate teams shouldn't be allowed and in character rule stays. Also, I think Raido and Aoba should be added and put in the mid jounin tier, and Old Sarutobi should definetly be moved up, I'd say mid kage because he can't use shiki fujin.

[Esponer]

I'd be fine with Raido and Aoba, but as low jōnin.

For some reason, I've decided to write my own tier list. In some places, namely the highest tiers, it will be differ from existing tiers. The main difference is to remove all three Kage tiers and use elite jōnin and legendary jōnin (pardon me, those are the terms I use). In particular, anyone in the legendary jōnin has his or her own point cost, the itself has no associated cost. Too many shinobi in the legendary jōnin tier at far too different skill levels, three tiers are cluttered and still can't accommodate them.

[SpitefulSerpent5]

I think we might need to create a rank between low Kage and High Jounin. Putting Naruto, Gai and Kakashi next to Sandaime and Tsunade doesn't seem right...

[kojak488]

Even though I'm not allowed to participate again--per Grrblt--I'm still going to give my opinion.

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?

Yes. This is the internet. People are from all over the world in all sorts of different timezones. In such circumstances it's rather unfair to have first come first serve conditions. Instead, just add a condition incase they fight each other. Personally I'd say pick another team for that specific match-up or give about 20 points to add new members.

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]

In-character of course. It makes strategy a lot more useful.

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

I'd like to see either 60, 70, or 75 points. Anything below 80 so people can't pick two of the top tier characters.

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?

Since it's a trial tournament just start it. The arc will be finished when the "real" one begins.

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

I don't know the symantics on this. I'd say no and just add Kakuzu to the top tier, but then people might still think that FRS will 1-hit KO him. In that case I'd say have a full Kakuzu and a weakened Kakuzu so people who use the top Kakuzu don't have that idiotic problem.

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

No. People couldn't properly gauge his strength and we didn't see a great deal of his fighting ability anyway.

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)

This goes to in-character. Naruto could take it off, but he wouldn't just because Kakashi yells at him and says to do it. There's no need for two Yamato's. I was the only one who even used him last time. Just let it become circumstantial when Yamato and Naruto meet. I can think of plenty of arguments as to why Naruto would remove the necklace. None of these involve Kakashi yelling at him to remove it.

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?

One standard terrain for the entire tournament. People really don't take it into consideration to begin with. This would also ensure that the best team(s) won't be done in because they got screwed on the one random terrain that would tear them apart.

[The Truth]

One standard terrain for the entire tournament. People really don't take it into consideration to begin with. This would also ensure that the best team(s) won't be done in because they got screwed on the one random terrain that would tear them apart.
I couldn't disagree more. Just because some people are ignorant to the importance of location doesn't mean it should be ignored. For example, Sasori fighting in a field is different from him fighting inside an enclosed space(like a cave), because his opponent has more room to move around and avoid his puppets. Deidara fighting in a forest will find it difficult to drop bombs accurately because its hard to find your opponent under the trees.

Location adds a layer of depth that is needed and the chance that a good team is defeated by it isn't a good reason to oppose it.

[Metric]

I've never posted about this tournament before, but i stopped by and read about it a couple of days ago.

Yes. This is the internet. People are from all over the world in all sorts of different timezones. In such circumstances it's rather unfair to have first come first serve conditions. Instead, just add a condition incase they fight each other. Personally I'd say pick another team for that specific match-up or give about 20 points to add new members.


This part i agree with. Its unfair to do a first come first serve system, because people are on NF for different amounts of time at different time periods.

To solve the problem of duplicate teams, either make the players use a ''backup'' team or give them extra points to get different players just for that match. (Pretty much what kojak said).

[materpillar]

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?
-maybe have a maximum of like 2 duplicates per same team...

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]
-see esponer

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?
-to many more would make these fights to complicated...50 is good

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?
-at least wait for the deidara fight to end so we can have tobi ^_^

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?
-no...

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?
-highest tier starting in tail mode or set explicit rules for how to get him into tail mode

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)
- i don't remember anything about this >.<

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?
-random...see truth

[Cabbage Cabrera]

Kakuzu should have more then one form IMO. His first should be when he releases his hearts first. Meaning he'll have access to 3 elements. His second should be partial release when he had just 2 masks but used his threads as a more potential threat and then his long-range mode.

I'd start the trial now and when the real one starts, Team Hebi and Tobi will have revealed their abilities.

I'd also like to see Time-skip forms for the sand-sibs. Even though we saw nothing from either Kankuro or Temari, i think we can agree that what Sanshouo showed us in the anime is what Kishi intended for him. As for Temari, we could leave her out until we see more of her or just make an educated guess.

[tGre teh Disleksik]

Kakuzu should be left as he is...I agree with eddy, without Iron Skin, Kakuzu is pretty much a flapshtick.

thats about it for me.

[Sasori]

lol Post Ino is the same ranks as pre-skip genins :lmao

Also, I agree with The Truth.

In relation to points, I don't want it raised, as too many points could potentially mean too many character in play (ie. loads of genins)

If points were raised, there should be some kind of rule limiting ur choice from each tier.

I say this because battles are hard to debate when there are many characters because there are too many variables. Too many variables just leaves it up to speculation and opinions.

[Genis-Vell]

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?
Hell no, duplicate teams should not be allowed.
But if it cant be helped, additional points (20) and first come first serve enforced (this time) should amend the problem.


2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]
Like yeah….characters should totally be in character.
I mean we are using the manga as a reference and we are trying to determine how characters would comply with the battle at hand. If it was out of characters, I think to much assumptions would take place (and god knows we have plenty of that…as is.)


3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

I think so. 20 more points. My reason for this is;
It’s a trail tournament, and this is the best time to try something radical or different.

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?
Wait for the current tournament to be over.
And kick in the trail. By the time the trail is done, we consider starting the next tourney before or after the current arc.

After all, we are not really using anyone one from the current Hebi…other then Ded>_>(of the top of my mind. Their might be more).


5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?
Simply - No.
6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?
Yes. Tier 1 (40 points). At the start.

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)
No comment >_>

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?
Random locations for every wave, round, etc… No need to make every fight location random.


9. Other tier ideas (post your own)
High Kage - 40
KN3 - with tails - from the start

Mid Kage -32
Naruto after wind training (no tails)

Low Kage - 25
Weak Kazuku has to go or bump him up to mid kage.

High Jounin - 20

If Kakashi is pre time skip. Gai should be pre skip as well.
Knowledge is an important tool damn it >_<

[eDyH]

Several things....

-Get rid of KN3. If this tournament holds any value in its competitors' written strategies, KN3 has no place here. He is a straight-up powerhouse that can likely defeat any other single person or group of people on the tier list excluding Yamato. Almost any in-depth intelligent strategy involving 90% of the possible teams here can be refuted by someone saying: "lolz kn3 does teh yellzorz!!1!"

-Get rid of Weakened Kakuzu. Just kind of pointless really... and he is way more powerful than people seem to be giving him credit for. If you place him high on the tier list now nobody will pick him because he is so close to regular Kakuzu. If you place him low on the tier list now people will pick him and later on realize just how strong of a piece he really is. (Kind of like KN3 in the last tourney.)

-Move Sandaime up to Mid-Kage. The fact that he is overrated + the fact that he actually deserves most of the credit those who do so give him is enough.

-Keep everyone in character. I don't really see why that is even an issue here. (Keep in mind that this doesn't apply to their reactions to other characters. Naruto isn't going to fight harder because he is facing Akatsuki or protecting someone, just as he wouldn't hesitate to fight someone like Sakura.)

-Increase the point value to 70. It would just make for a more interesting trial. If it doesn't work we can switch back to 50 for the real thing.

-No duplicate teams. Yes, timezones are an issue, but I would much rather pick an entirely different team from scratch than have the same team as someone else. If you want to make the timezone issue fair then randomize the time of day the registration thread is posted. (I don't really see why dupe teams would be so common here anyway if we increase the point limit for each team.)

-No Tobi. Ever. The number of people who would argue in favor of Tobi even if they actually think he would lose would be worse than GB coming to vote en masse. (Myself likely included. :sag)

-Naruto's necklace shouldn't be much of an issue if KN3 is removed (god i hope he is >.>), but I don't see an in-character Naruto removing the necklace just because either Kakashi or Yamato yell at him to. It is his prized possession given to him by one of his "most specialestest of peoples".

edit: Oh, and keep locations randomized. Having one static location for the entire tournament would be hella boring.

doubleedit: Get rid of #18 for Deidara too.... I realized just how broken he was in the last tournament (i picked him on a whim...), and someone trying to logically state a way for their team to stop Deidara from jumping on a bird, flying straight up, and dropping #18 to end the match is ridiculous. It literally takes him maybe 6-7 seconds to get out of the range of nearly any character present.

[Esponer]

Hmm. I have another foolish idea for a team. Does anyone want to try to fathom why it is I'm obsessed with trying foolish synergies rather than going for a strong base? (Damn, I chose that Chiyo team over Sasori–Shikamaru.)

[eDyH]

Hmm. I have another foolish idea for a team. Does anyone want to try to fathom why it is I'm obsessed with trying foolish synergies rather than going for a strong base? (Damn, I chose that Chiyo team over Sasori–Shikamaru.)

Because it is much more fun to think of a complex strategy for the underdog than it is to say "Sasori scratches him." :wink

[Esponer]

What are people's thoughts on submitting drugged Jiraiya or some such? We've seen almost as much from him as from Orochimaru.

[Citan]

1. Duplicate teams - allow them?
nah whoever wants it first should get it

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga] yeah

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?
i like 70 as id said this is a trial tournament so lets try something different
4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?
start the trial now
5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?
nah
6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?
yes start in tail mode and put him at mid kage. if you put him at high kage people are going to argue oro is stronger than he is and yamato can just rape him
7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case) if he can take it off you should just take yamato out of the tournament

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?
one for all fights would be good. someplace where somebody doesnt have a complete advantage like zabuza/kisame on an ocean or gaara in a desert
9. Other tier ideas (post your own)
people can buy plot items with points. post kakashi can buy kyuubi seal, sakura can buy the antidote for sasori's poison ect ect


Mid Kage – 32 points
KN3 (before wind training) starts as kn3

Low Jounin - 10 points
Gaara (SRA)

[MISTNINJA]

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?

Yes, It would make no sense not to allow them. If the teams are the same then a strategy comparison would decide the battle.


2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]

This needs to be expanded on. When you say act like in manga are you talking about the debate on whether characters would get along? For example someone always stated how Sasori would not get cooperate with anyone or the big Chiyo debate. Would the team trust her to use them as puppets. I say that they act as the strategy that has been put in play. Otherwise it leaves open for debate on whether the strategy provided would work. I say that they follow the strategy provided.


3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

I say keep it the same. If we run into a team of two Oro's or high tier characters the strategy would simply be they would crush everyone just as they did in the manga. It would lead to teams being too powerful.


4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?

Start ASAP, we can do the real thing when the teams reveal their power.


5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

Keep him the same. He was tough but he went down.


6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

Yes keep KN3. He must start in whatever mode you purchase. It lessens the strategy for his character. If he starts in normal mode he can perform KB and other things then go to KN3.

We have to state whether or not he can be poisoned and how cooperative he is. If this is stated and not left up to debate then he would be weakened enough to deal with.


7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)

Yamato's necklace is no big deal. One Yamato is fine.


8. Locations - random? one for all fights?

I say Random, it give a team a chance if they are water type and it is in wave country, it may lead to an upset. Goes with strategy and doesn't make it so easy for a powerhoise to win.



9. Other tier ideas (post your own)

No ideas, looks good to me. Hidan sucks but if they want to spend 32 points for him, who am I to complain. We need to state whether things like Sakura having a cure for Sasori's poison is a factor. If she is not allowed this because of no prep time it lessens post Sakura IMO.

Also I lost a match to a guy who didn't even post a strategy. I say if no strategy is posted then you lose automatically.

We also need a rule on whether we give our own opinion as to why one team would win or whether we HAVE to use the strategy of the battle participants. Most of us state what will happen based on our own knowledge because some of the strategies posted were ridiculous.

High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu

Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Hidan
KN3 (before wind training)

Low Kage – 25 points
Post-Skip Kakashi
Chiyo
Tsunade (no blood phobia)
Naruto (after wind training, only KN0)
Old Sarutobi
Gai w/ 6 gates (time limited)
Weak Kakuzu (Only Raiton, Fuuton, Katon, no Iron Skin) - isn't he still too overpowered for Low Kage?

High Jounin – 20 points
Pre-Skip Kakashi
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma
30% Kisame
30% Itachi

Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Sick Kimimaro
Oro with no hands
Post Shikamaru

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Hayate

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Jirobou (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku

Mid Chuunin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam - CS not allowed?)
Pre Sasuke (FotD - CS allowed)
Drunk Lee

Low Chuunin – 4 points
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
Post Ino
Demon Brothers

High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misumi
Arkado Yoroi
Pre Chouji (SRA)

Mid Genin – 2 points
Base Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin

Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kagari
Muri
Oboro

[Dudemancool]

i think we should go with popular consensus here and move hidan down, i mean a lot of the people from lowkage could take him quite easily

[Law]

Hidan STILL kills anyone who doesn't know his ability first-hand. And even if they do, he still isn't easy to stop.
He needed to have a tiny bit more versatility though. (Don't get me wrong...he's still the weakest Akatsuki)

I'm all for having the points go to 70. 72 would be too much (high kage + mid kage = ouch)

I think we hold a vote, right here and now. Dupe teams, yes or no. Make a poll Risu. Then we go by that decision, and no one whines. I'm not going to shit a brick if it doesn't go my way...but it seems kind of split, so let's get a definitive answer.

I didn't realize having a weak Kakuzu was because of Narutards...that's REALLY sad.

Mistninja brought up some very important questions. Everyone should pay attention.

I propose that if a player does not post a strategy, they are disqualified. No more winning just by your team and not showing up.

ALSO, we should write it DIRECTLY into the rules of the tournament that people should be voting for the player and his strategy MORE than the team he uses. Way too often does a person post an absolutely terrible strategy, and win still because someone else came along and won the match FOR them by posting a better one. That's some extreme BS right there. (I'm guilty of winning a match for someone else who dropped the ball, so I suck too)

I would just once again like to toss in my vote for lifting the points limit to 70. The more I think about this idea, the more I think we should test it out in the trial. If we think it's too confusing, and too congested, we go back to 50. Easy.

and ID: frick man...it's TRIAL.

[Spell]

A lot of stuff here...

Important message: I asked for a ban. 11 days starting from Sunday (17 - 27 June). Sorry, I need to focus on exams T_T . You have to carry this out without my help. Be conciliatory guys.

If you needed a mod that time, ask Splintered for help. (if not - Shiron or other smod)

@kojak: Grrblt didn't exclude you from tournament. You can participate if others have no objections.

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?I will make a poll Eddy.

Seems most of us agree on:

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]Looks like it's still in play. I like Esponer's idea (60 seconds etc), however there are few matters I would consider. Maybe later :sag

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?It seems most of us want more points. I would add soem too, but no more than 20. 70 is pretty much (+ no 2 MID/HIGH kages in one team IMO)


4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?
ASAP!
5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)
Still unclear.

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?
Random.

Edit: :arg somethings wrong with the poll option, I will try to do it asap

[Law]

Poll is up.
Vote people...let's get this stuff underway.

We need to choose 4 or 5 people to actually pick up the slack in Risu's absence.

Kyon, where you at? It looks like the trial is going to be done without Risu, so let's hurry up and get it figured out.

[kojak488]

Taken from the final match thread for its importance:

STOP THIS MATCH RIGHT NOW!

I messaged Grrblt during Risu's last match for concerns over how it ended. He never replied to me, but another moderator looked into the issue. That person doesn't have domain over this sub-section and thus we require a further investigation from the moderators of this sub-section and the House of Uzumaki.

The concern was that a few of the people in Risu's last match weren't valid because of: they might have been "bot" accounts, old inactive accounts reactivated, lobbied votes, and/or new accounts. I'd asked Grrblt to look at the I.P. addresses of the voters to see if there was anything fishy. As I said he never replied back to me. Here is part of what I received in my inbox today from another moderator that looked into the issue:

There is some overlap of IP addresses among those users. However, that is not conclusive by itself. I am only the mod for the omitted sections. If you have concerns, please contact the mods of House of Uzumaki.

Now I don't like accusing Risu, or anyone else, of cheating. It was just quite odd to me and I wished further investigation. The results of that investigation warrant a public investigation for all of the facts. Still, I'm not asserting that Risu did anything wrong. It's just that since there is some evidence that something is going on it needs to be looked into. It can possibly still be a mistake.

This match must be halted until the investigation is complete. Now we just need to get it thoroughly investigated.

[Law]

Unnecessary drama thread has unnecessary drama.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with Kojak's post, because I don't think risu has done anything - but I don't really think it's wise for mods to be in the tournament. Mods should be overseeing the tournament, not competing in it. For "obvious" reasons... ^^^^

[Kai]

What the hell just happened?

[Esponer]

What the hell just happened?
kojak488 is accusing Risu or his supporters of foulplay. He believes that one, many or all of Yo_Daddy; Shikamaru, the Genius; The_Chronic; Dudemancool; KingManga; Sasori-puppet#03 or SpitefulSerpent5 are secret accounts belonging to Risu or friends of Risu voting on his behest.

I would recommend continuing with the final tournament, the discussion of the trial tournament and indeed the trial tournament itself as normal. I also would like to know that someone experienced in identifying IPs had observed the posts the correct way, and offer to do so on a moderator's behalf if they trust me.

[Esponer]

IMPORTANT

The following users' votes are disqualified until further notice.

KingManga
Sasori-puppet#03
Shikamaru, the Genius
The_Chronic
Yo_Daddy

There is no evidence that Risu was involved in foulplay, but the above five accounts are identical, and will all be banned shortly.

With this in mind, the winner of the semifinal tournament Risu vs citan is citan. citan was voted by himself, kojak488, masamune1, HellKarasu, MISTNINJA, tiger, tobisobito, hejsa and Kyon (9). Risu was voted by himself, Hiruko, Sasori-puppet#03, SpitefulSerpent5, KingManga, Distracted, The_Chronic, Shikamaru the Genius, Dudemancool and Yo_Daddy (5). Risu therefore lost in the semifinal match, and we are required to begin new threads to discuss Kai vs citan and Risu vs Grrblt.

I would strongly recommend that Risu is not accused of foulplay, as while the IP addresses of the above five accounts were identical, they were not even close to Risu's own. Cheating on his behalf is likely, but we have no evidence that this was at Risu's behest. Further, as this is an isolated incident (none of these users voted in Risu's final match, although Sasori-puppet#03 commented), it's most likely that it was one user screwing us around.

Thanks to kojak488 for bringing this to light and Shiron for his IP checks. Apologies to all Dudemancool and SpitefulSerpent5, who I PMed requesting cooperation with the investigation (I didn't think it'd be either of you, but I wanted to be rigorous). To the accused, please address the forum moderators with your concerns if you feel you are innocent. Also, it would be better for the tournament if you admitted (contact me by AIM, MSN or Skype to the left of this window) that Risu had no part in your multiple voting if you are guilty.

[The_Chronic]

1. What exactly do you mean by duplicate teams?

2. In character rule - still in play

3. Points per team - no, 50 is good

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc.

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes

6. KN3 - yes. Mid Kage. Starts in base mod.

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off. Does naruto even know that the necklace is what allows Yamato to control him?

8. Locations - random, adds a little spice.

9. Other tier ideas. nope

High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu

Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Hidan
KN3 (before wind training)It can stay here

Low Kage – 25 points
Post-Skip Kakashi
Chiyo
Tsunade (no blood phobia)yes
Naruto (after wind training, only KN0)
Old Sarutobi
Gai w/ 6 gates (time limited)yeah
Weak Kakuzu (Only Raiton, Fuuton, Katon, no Iron Skin) - isn't he still too overpowered for Low Kage? not really, aganist high tier opponents(Sasori, Orochimaru) he'd be destroyed. but it could be a problem for lower tier opponents. i'll let you figure this out.

High Jounin – 20 points
Pre-Skip Kakashi
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma
30% Kisame
30% Itachi

Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Sick Kimimaro
Oro with no hands
Post Shikamaru

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Hayate

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Jirobou (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku

Mid Chuunin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam - CS not allowed?)yes not allowed
Pre Sasuke (FotD - CS allowed)yes allowed
Drunk Lee

Low Chuunin – 4 points
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
Post Ino
Demon Brothers

High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misumi
Arkado Yoroi
Pre Chouji (SRA)

Mid Genin – 2 points
Base Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin

Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kagari
Muri
Oboro

[Esponer]

1. What exactly do you mean by duplicate teams?
Like duplicate accounts, only it's the teams that are the same and the users different, rather than the user the same and the accounts different.

[Dudemancool]

im not risu lol

[Esponer]

im not risu lol
Again, I apologise for PMing you (and submitting your vote to Shiron for an IP check), but I wanted to be thorough.

[Shiron]

im not risu lol
Nope; I've already verified that, as seen in post #32.

[MISTNINJA]

How about a Post Sakura with Sasori anticdote and make her low jounin level. This is if people think that she should not have the anticdote since there is no prep time.

Also I wouldn't mind if Kojak is allowed to participate.

[Kai]

Well, just to let you know I changed my name earlier this morning to as you can see, 4th hokage. You can still refer to me as Kai though if you wish. Just to clear up minor confusion.

[Distracted]

Ok guys, I think we need establish stuff now.

Here are few important issues we should consider asap. Please quote, if you wish, and state your opinions/ideas.

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?

9. Other tier ideas (post your own)

High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu

Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Hidan
KN3 (before wind training)

Low Kage – 25 points
Post-Skip Kakashi
Chiyo
Tsunade (no blood phobia)
Naruto (after wind training, only KN0)
Old Sarutobi
Gai w/ 6 gates (time limited)
Weak Kakuzu (Only Raiton, Fuuton, Katon, no Iron Skin) - isn't he still too overpowered for Low Kage?

High Jounin – 20 points
Pre-Skip Kakashi
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma
30% Kisame
30% Itachi

Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Sick Kimimaro
Oro with no hands
Post Shikamaru

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Hayate

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Jirobou (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku

Mid Chuunin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam - CS not allowed?)
Pre Sasuke (FotD - CS allowed)
Drunk Lee

Low Chuunin – 4 points
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
Post Ino
Demon Brothers

High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misumi
Arkado Yoroi
Pre Chouji (SRA)

Mid Genin – 2 points
Base Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin

Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kagari
Muri
Oboro

I was gone for too long... it feels good to be back.

no duplicate teams... cause what if those 2 dupes just DOMINATE and then match against each other?

I like the in character rule.

I'm all for adding more points.

I wouldn't mind waiting for tobi/heibi but I'm good either way.

I prefer weakened Kakuzu but I think people are overestimating him if they think he needs to be raised up. I mean that's 2 less hearts and people think he should still be mid-kage? Kakashi was keeping up with him pretty nicely when he only had 3 hearts if I remember... and that was without MS.

I'm happy where KN-3 is, people seem to just not want to use Yamato and that's at their own peril. I feel it should start in base mode... gives Naruto far more flexibility.

Naruto wouldn't take off that Necklace, but I'm kind of indifferent about it. I can see why it would be an interference in this tournament though.

locations should still be random, it makes it so your team can't just be invincible in the water... and it gives Gaara a wild card factor.

Not tier ideas sorry.

[Law]

You say KN3 is good where he is, and hey...that's great. But if a Naruto player can just have him shed the necklace...what's Yamato going to do anyway?

So we say: "KN3 is fine where he is, because people have the option of Yamato." then "KN3 can take the necklace off". Doesn't that kind of make the first point null?

OK, Edit:

I wanted to say something here.
First of all, thanks Kojak for being so untrusting...(a lesson for kids everywhere apparently)
Secondly, people would do well to remember that this person did Risu NO favors. Especially after this, IPs will be checked. We shouldn't assume that this person voted for Risu in Risu's best interest. They would have known someone would notice, and Risu's match would be disqualified. They may have been sabotaging Risu by cheating on his behalf.

Just wanted to say that.

[Asuma: Konoha's Blade]

According to the poll, it looks like dupe teams aren't allowed; when's it closing?

[Kai]

OK, Edit:

I wanted to say something here.
First of all, thanks Kojak for being so untrusting...(a lesson for kids everywhere apparently)
Secondly, people would do well to remember that this person did Risu NO favors. Especially after this, IPs will be checked. We shouldn't assume that this person voted for Risu in Risu's best interest. They would have known someone would notice, and Risu's match would be disqualified. They may have been sabotaging Risu by cheating on his behalf.

Just wanted to say that.
I would disagree for Risu to be disqualified for that kind of nonsense, if it were that guy's[whatever his main account is] intentions. The member himself would just have no power in adding +1 to the voting, and potentially barred from this subforum or the forum in general.

But not only did he damage Risu, he just wasted all of our time in bringing in mods and matching up the IP's for any sort of relation. Now the matches are frozen until there's later confirmation on the current situation....AKA we have been slowed down.

[Law]

Exactly. So whoever did it, was doing no favors for anybody.
Perma-bans would be nice.

[Metric]

Uh im not sure if this has been answered but i couldn't see it in the rules anywhere and i'm new to this tournament idea.

But do characters have prior kowledge of their opponent's abilties before the battle, or is it expected that they work out their opponent's abilities during the battle?

[Spell]

Hm, I don't know how to start...

Well that's a crappy case =/ , I checked their IP but they didn't match, however there is still big possiblity some of them were dupe accounts. I don't know who was it.

You can disqualify me from this tournament if you want, winning it is not my desire. Really. However it would be quite unfair IMO. It's not my fault, I don't know this guy. If I wanted to cheat I would do it in other way. Believe me, I could just PM my NF friends and say "hey, vote for me". >20 votes assured. You couldn't accuse me of cheating because there would be no evidence.

Seems it would be better if I don't participate BD tournaments. I will just play the role of coordinator and help to carry it out. That's fine.

By the way, it's funny, but i found something veeery interesting:

Ok edited.....

IP of tobisobito and Kojak are the same, anyway...

Well, I'm not accusing anyone but... XD

[kojak488]

That was already known, which is why I was shocked Esponer counted the votes the way he did. Do you think I'm an idiot for exposing without making all the details known including myself? C'mon now. Perhaps since mine doesn't actually change the outcome? You're still beat 7-5 since other, higher people have confirmed the other I.P. checks.

And thanks for posting my I.P. address to the ENTIRE public. Please edit it out.. that's really improper to give it out to everyone in an open forum.

[Spell]

That was already knownI don't think it was.
Actually it would be 6-5 for citan. Kyon rejected his vote for him.

[kojak488]

I'd told the moderator at the start of the investigation. I don't know who investigated after I posted here, but I'd hope the two sides were talking. In any case citan still leads, Kyon's "rejected vote" has no validity since there's no reasoning behind the change (other than I <3 mod), and you better have edited out my I.P. address at the other places too. That was a really crap thing to do.. you should know better as a moderator and have the courtesy not to go splashing my I.P. everywhere.

[Spell]

I edited, sorry for that.

But you know, Kojak. You can be banned too. All posts of tobisobito were posted the same day. The day he (maybe you) voted for citan. In one hour, all of them were spammy with 2 exceptions: vote against Grrblt and vote against me. Tobisobito never appeared again.

It was you kojak.


Edit: Ah, also hejsa is probably dupe of Assassin. IP match.

[kojak488]

I didn't deny that Tobisobito is me. I saw it be done in one of the earlier matches and wanted the right person to win that match, so I did what I did. I was lazy and didn't bother changing my I.P. address because I didn't think there'd be another person voting five times.

Obviously I also knew that I'd incriminate myself in the process of the investigation, but I still went through with it. If the account is still active I'll log in after this just to show it.

I played my hand and I'm not sorry about it; even if I'm banned I'll just force change my I.P., make another account, and you'll never figure out who I am. I'm just glad I showed everyone how easy this was to pull off so it won't happen in the future. If it weren't for me, this would have gone under the radar and I wouldn't have even incriminated myself. I made my decision and I stand by it.

:leepose

Just let me know if I'll have to create another account.

[tobisobito]

You can ban this one at least.. though I'm kinda partial to the name. Ingenious I must say! Now that I've come clean it's time for someone else to.. it wasn't just coincidence that their post times coincide with certain people's browsing patterns.

[Spell]

I don't think you will need to create another account. Tobisobito will be permed and you will be banned for few days probably.

But your deed causes a tournament ban now. I'm sure everyone egree with it. You won't be able to participate or vote, however you still can post your opinion in every match (unless it's falming).

Don't bother to create new account. It won't work. You're not the one who changes IP on this forum. I know you think mods are stupid, but they are not. I didn't need to check IP to know that Tardaime, PierdolLeppera, mehmeh were kapsi's dupes.

Some things are obvious.

[Esponer]

I've lost a lot of interest in this tournament, hence why I didn't even vote in the last few matches and why I didn't fire off looking into cheating myself. I just about had the interest to investigate (with Shiron's fantastic help) what kojak had called up, but I'm not bothered enough myself to have tried to look into every single voter, nor did I want to be a pain to Shiron.

Risu, Shiron and I looked into it and the IP addresses of those five accounts matched perfectly.

I'm also extremely disappointed by the level of cheating going on here. kojak cheated too? What are we going to have to do, require special registration and a check to be allowed to vote? This is pathetic, guys, it's a harmless, fun game online. There shouldn't be cheating.

[Citan]

so what exactly is going on :o

[Sasori]

I am Risu's dupe.

[materpillar]

so what is the final verdict here and why is hidan 32 points?

[Sliver Fang]

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new team? If no - first in, first takes?

-No this should not be allowed.

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]

-Yes, i think they should act like they would in the manga. like sasori will not listen to shikamaru because thats just not how he rolls.

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

-I think that we should have 70 at the most no more and the least should be at least 65. No less.

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?

-wouldn't affect me.

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

-I see no point in this.

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

-yes, starts in base naruto.

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)

-no he shouldn't be able to because that would make yamato just useless.

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?

-Yes the locations should all be random.

9. Other tier ideas (post your own)

-We need to move chiyo down to High jonin level because i don't think she will beat kakashi or Gai.

-Also is boss summon or summon allowed. or did i missed the post somewhere?

Tier List so far:
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu

Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Hidan
KN3 (before wind training)

Low Kage – 25 points
Post-Skip Kakashi
Chiyo (We need to change this)
Tsunade (no blood phobia)
Naruto (after wind training, only KN0)
Old Sarutobi (move to mid-kage)
Gai w/ 6 gates (time limited)
Weak Kakuzu (Only Raiton, Fuuton, Katon, no Iron Skin) - isn't he still too overpowered for Low Kage?(no point of this version of kakuzu)

High Jounin – 20 points
Pre-Skip Kakashi
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma
30% Kisame
30% Itachi

Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Sick Kimimaro(how long is he going to last?) (cause i can see the arugment of "What if his sickness comes in and kills him at the begging of the battle.")
Oro with no hands
Post Shikamaru

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)(is this the butterfly form?)
Hayate

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Jirobou (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku (i think he should be low jonin. 8 points seems a little to cheap for haku. an i think haku are stronger than any people in this high-chunin section.)

Mid Chuunin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)(why is Lee with 5 gates pre wroth more points when Pre Gaara won him in the match?)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam - CS not allowed?)
Pre Sasuke (FotD - CS allowed)
Drunk Lee

Low Chuunin – 4 points
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
Post Ino
Demon Brothers

High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misumi
Arkado Yoroi
Pre Chouji (SRA)

Mid Genin – 2 points
Base Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin

Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kagari
Muri
Oboro



That should be it for now...

[Spell]

lol, they banned kojak pretty fast, I'll check for how long...
so what exactly is going on :oI suppose yo're in the final :P

I am Risu's dupe.shh don't tell :ninja (Grrblt is my dupe too)

so what is the final verdict here and why is hidan 32 points?He will be probably moved down, but I don't know. you have to decide.

[Law]

Haku's fine where he is.
Many people will argue Neji beats Haku, CS2 Sound 4 beat Haku, etc. But it's pretty obvious to me that CS2 Sasuke and KN1 Naruto would stomp him.

Hidan could be 25 if we decide people know his ability. But left as-is if we say no one knows previously.

Chiyo is an oddity, because she could beat some people in the tier she's in *arguably* and lose to some people in the tier lower than her *arguably*

For one thing, shoten clone Kisame from what we were shown, is not losing to Chiyo. He just has too much chakra to get rid of her puppets with ninjutsu, and then get close enough to her with taijutsu.

I think shoten clones beat most of their tier, and lose to almost all from the tier above them. If we could make a tier of 22pts, they would be in there along with Chiyo and arguably Yamato(if we go by what he said when he saw Sasuke "I guess I need to be serious here" etc.).

But since we have no 22pt tier, they're fine as-is.



Risu: I think the poll identifies where people stand, so close it and make it official. No dupes, first come-first served.

[Spell]

Ok, poll closed.

Kojak is banned for 2 days btw...

[Violent By Design]

I to lost interest in the tourney. I'm shocked that someone even attempted to cheat, who would be stupid enough to make multiple accounts from the same computer?

Anyway here are my opinions

- No dupe teams. First come first served ( though it doesn't matter the polls over)

- Sandaime needs to be MID Kage Tier.

- I say Naruto can't take off his neckless.

- Don't wait till the hebi arc is done

- I'm not really sure what to do with KN3 Naruto. I say the safest thing is either take him out of the tournament or make him High Kage tier (but starts off in base form)

- Get rid of weak Kakuzu. IMO it's stupid

- Hidan should stay 32 Points

- The 22 point tier thing could bring up a good point. If we elaborate on it some more then maybe we could make a new tier. If not then leave Chiyo, Yamato and clones where they are

- Characters should stay in character. Shouldn't even be a debate

- Randomize fields by each ROUND not match. I dont get why at one point of the tournament every single match would have a different stage. Just keep each round a different stage (so quarter finals is different from semi's etc). In fact I think I might make a thread just about the fields.

EDIT: Fuck I just deleted what I wrote by accident.

Risu and mods should be able to compete in this tournament. There is no reason why someone would be modest and vote for them just because they are a moderator. This tournament is for discussion not moderation. A moderator doesn't have any more say in how this tournament works then any of the other regulars here.

As for Kojack being able to participate. I didn't read the other threads so I don't really know about this Grrblt banning stuff. I say that we allow kojack to participate. However, it is the MODS duty to ban people who flame (this is not a BD rule but a Narutofan rule). So mods keep this in mind to calm people down when the debates just turn into flame wars.

[Kai]

Wait, Citan won the 1st tournament?

[Sliver Fang]

i also think that we should have a prize for the winner so that people will take this tournament seriously. remember the 50 pre sakuras. LOL.

So for the prize we should have them get some rep points. (Got this idea from the bleach tournament) that way people will actually take this seriously and this might prevent people from joining the tournament but never posting. I don't know but just a thought.

[Violent By Design]

Honestly it was the community's own fault for even allowing the 50 Point Pre Sakura in. It was a really stupid idea and he pretty much wasted a spot so someone else couldn't participate in the tournament.

[HellKarasu]

1. Duplicate teams - allow them? If yes - additional points (how many)/ new
team? If no - first in, first takes?

Nope. It could end up team A v. team A, and this is a tournament we can't afford to have a stalemate situation

2. In character rule - still in play or kick it out? [characters act like they would in manga]

Yeah. It stays.

3. Points per team - we have 50 now, maybe we should add some?

50 worked well enough, as it limits the number of powerhouses on a team perfectly.

4.Wait for team Hebi/Tobi etc. or start the trial asap?

Start ASAP

5.Weakened Kakuzu - yes or no?

Yes, yes and yes. Kakuzu was underplayed and can't be reduced in cost, cos he's too powerful.

6. KN3 - yes or no? If yes - in which tier? Starts in base mod ot in tail mode?

No KN3, he raped the last tournament like Sarutobi di the first.

7. Yamato's necklace - Naruto can't take it off? Maybe make 2 Yamato's - one normal and one who can control Naruto (he couldn't take it off in that case)

Naruto should be able to take it off.

8. Locations - random? one for all fights?

Valley of the End covers most matchups, but random is good.

9. Other tier ideas: Here's my take

High Kage – 40 points
Sasori
Kakuzu

Mid Kage – 30 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Orochimaru (no boss summon or Edo Tensei justifies this)
Deidara

Low Kage – 25 points
Post-Skip Kakashi
Hidan
Chiyo
Tsunade (no blood phobia)
Naruto (after wind training, only KN0)
Gai w/ 6 gates (time limited)
Weak Kakuzu (Only Raiton, Fuuton, Katon, no Iron Skin)

High Jounin – 20 points
Pre-Skip Kakashi
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma
30% Kisame
30% Itachi

Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Sick Kimimaro
Oro with no hands
Post Shikamaru

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Hayate
Post Kankuro (Sasori fight)

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku

Mid Chuunin – 6 points
Jirobou (CS2)
Post Chouji
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam - CS not allowed?)
Pre Sasuke (FotD - CS allowed)
Drunk Lee

Low Chuunin – 4 points
Jirobou (CS1)
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
Post Ino
Demon Brothers (Remind me again who they are)

High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misumi
Arkado Yoroi
Pre Chouji (SRA)

Mid Genin – 2 points
Base Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin

Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kagari
Muri
Oboro

[Sliver Fang]

As i looked through the list i noticed that Shizune isn't in there. We should add her and put her in low-jonin because sakura is in high chunin and i think she is stronger than sakura so it would make sense if she is in low-jonin. or we can put her in high chunin. Better for me though (i didn't say anything though)

Low Jounin - 10 points
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Pre Lee (exam, 5 gates)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Hayate
Shizune

High Chuunin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Jirobou (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Haku

[Violent By Design]

lol idk how Shizune slipped out of there. Yeah she should stay Low Jounin.

[Asuma: Konoha's Blade]

I think the last chapter was enough to show Sasuke's abilities and put him in the tournament as a high kage.

[Citan]

Wait, Citan won the 1st tournament?

did i? :oh

[Dudemancool]

chiyo is fine in low kage.

she could arguably beat PTS Kakashi, completely beat Tsunade, and maybe beat sarutobi.

naruto and kakuzu are bad match ups and Gai can beat anyone in his tier.


i still think hidan should move down, he cant beat anyone in lowkage as it is.

[Kyon]

I'm still gone for a while, but I am shocked at what has transpired.

If you guys need someone to help co-ordinate, I'll have fragmented internet access until Tuesday, and then I'll have full access again. Vancouver trip. Bought myself some nice Airwalks and polos. :amuse

And kojak, what the fuck? I agree to the tournament ban.

I've sort of lost interest, but I'll continue on. After all, I have to somehow rise to the top (maybe actually playing this tournament right, rather than fun :ninja)

[Law]

If you would like help with the tournament, I'm willing to help. I'm here everyday pretty much without exception.

[Spell]

Wait, Citan won the 1st tournament?lol , I don't think so XD

Unless you're giving up :P

There is also a possiblility not all of banned members were dupes. However I doubt it, it would be an incredible coincidence.


I leave this tournament in your hands Eddy and Kyon. Maybe someone will be willing to help too.

[Esponer]

I would love to be able to help more with this tournament, but I'm afraid that for personal reasons at the moment I'd be better off staying in the corner occasionally making a somewhat useful post and then disappearing again. I should be able to be part of the trial tournament and the next tournament, but it may be a few weeks before I can offer any serious help with the running of this.

[Violent By Design]

If any thing needs to be ran i'll do it. I try to help out anyway.

[niyesuH]

easy way to avoid cheat is... example... jounin or higher required to vote

[Violent By Design]

easy way to avoid cheat is... example... jounin or higher required to vote

Um I don't think i'm even a Jounin yet ( I assume your referring to post count). I say any member who doesn't have more then 50 post cannot vote.

[Spell]

I would say >100. 50 posts is quite easy to write (especially when they are spammy), I doubt anyone would make an effort to post over 100 just in case of voting.

However, I think it would be wise if we don't automatically nullify everyone with <100 posts. If it's verified person with <100 isn't a dupe (he she posts here frequently and is active, IP doesn't match, there is no premise he/she might be a dupe), we shouldn't cancel his/her vote. But if it isn't verified, >100 posts rule should be in force.

[niyesuH]

Um I don't think i'm even a Jounin yet ( I assume your referring to post count). I say any member who doesn't have more then 50 post cannot vote.


yeah:P even i aint a jounin yet... i think 100-150 post barrier is good

[Sliver Fang]

isn't one-hundred a little too much. i mean it took me forever to get to 100 when i first started but hey it doesn't affect me in any shape or form so if we put in this rule i'll galdly follow it.

[Shiron]

That's the point... To make it something that's not that easy to get too, in order to try and prevent/discourage people from using dupes to cheat again.

[Genis-Vell]

Muahahaah.

That was funny. >_>
Drama in the tournament. -_-
Oh and I am Grrblt’s Dupe….yar :id


I still want to know why, 20 point Kakashi is pre time skip.
While 20 point Gai isn’t.

[Legendarywun]

hey just wanted to add in, that if you guys happen to start the tourny while im not around, please do put me down as a contestant....work is freakin hectic :(

[Spell]

isn't one-hundred a little too much. i mean it took me forever to get to 100 when i first started but hey it doesn't affect me in any shape or form so if we put in this rule i'll galdly follow it.
But it is already verified, you're not a dupe. I suppose >__>
Muahahaah.

That was funny. >_>
Drama in the tournament. -_-
Oh and I am Grrblt’s Dupe….yar :id


I still want to know why, 20 point Kakashi is pre time skip.
While 20 point Gai isn’t.Well, I think both are pre timeskip. Just someone forgot to mention it in the tier list.

[Violent By Design]

What would be the difference between Pre Time skip Gai and Post Time Skip Gai besides a little bit of knowledge?

[Esponer]

What would be the difference between Pre Time skip Gai and Post Time Skip Gai besides a little bit of knowledge?
He may have, and many people believe he has, become stronger in the intervening time.

[Violent By Design]

He may have, and many people believe he has, become stronger in the intervening time.

I'm sure he has. But theres one pretty big problem to this.

We have no idea how strong pre Gai is, nor how strong post Gai is. We do not even know if he has learned any thing new.

[Esponer]

I'm sure he has. But theres one pretty big problem to this.

We have no idea how strong pre Gai is, nor how strong post Gai is. We do not even know if he has learned any thing new.
Indeed. For the sake of people's assumptions, however, we should say part I Gai. Otherwise we may hear the argument, "Both Gai and Kakashi improved in two and a half years, and were equals in Part I, therefore this Gai is far more powerful than Kakashi".

[Citan]

so whats happening with the current tournament? is it over?

[Asuma: Konoha's Blade]

Maybe Gai w/o gates should be mid jounin I mean all he can do is taijutsu that Kisame schooled him in and nunchuks. No one bought him in high jounin last tournament because he can't beat any other of the high jounin w/o gates. Basically Gai w/o gates < pre or post Kakashi > Gai with gates

[Dudemancool]

actually, preskip gai without gates was able to move so fast that he was invisible to naruto and sakura, and he didnt seem to be going at full speed.

thats something lee wasnt able to do until 5th gate.

Gai is that fast.

[Asuma: Konoha's Blade]

Why didn't he use that speed against Kisame?

We don't know if Gai improved over timeskip, and its sheer speculation to say Gai and Kakashi should be in the same teir since they're rivals. They're completely differant.

Every high jounin (except maybe Zabuza, who is more versatile and useful to his team) would give no gates Gai a beatdown.

30% Kisame - We witnessed it in Chapter 258

30% Itachi - Kisame's superior, was taking on Post TS Kakashi almost evenly. He has shown impressive speed, at least enough so that he can dodge Gai's attacks, especially with sharingan. Gai would quickly be overwhelmed alone taking some genjutsu.

Pre Time Skip Kakashi- Has sharingan and high speed so he can dodge Gai's movements. Can counter the nunchuks with his skill in kunai. Ninjutsu arsenal will slowly overwhelm Gai.

Asuma - Faster than Kakashi and only slightly worse in ninjutsu, Asuma would easily take this. Gai is only slightly faster and Asuma could just cut him down with his wind blades.

Kabuto - Decent speed, but enough to at least keep up with Gai for a bit. He can heal any wounds from being punched and kicked by the highly physically strong Gai. However, it won't be tough to hit Gai with his chakra scalpel while taking a hit.

Zabuza - His weakness is speed, so Gai's victory is a possibility. Gai, who would use nunchuks against any sword user, would lose the advantage against Gai. Gai hides in his mist and Gai is fucked.

Gai was quite unimpressive w/o gates in his fight with Kisame, only being hit. Some mid jounin might be able to beat him, so I seriously think Gai w/o gates should be moved down to mid jounin.

[Law]

Zabuza - His weakness is speed, so Gai's victory is a possibility. Gai, who would use nunchuks against any sword user, would lose the advantage against Gai. Gai hides in his mist and Gai is fucked.



One of the best posts I have ever seen.
Kyon!!! PM me man, let's get started on setting up the trial so we can pick it up right after this tourney is officially closed. (That is, if you would like my assistance)

[Dudemancool]

Why didn't he use that speed against Kisame?

i believe he did, but Kisame was just as fast.


30% Itachi - Kisame's superior, was taking on Post TS Kakashi almost evenly. He has shown impressive speed, at least enough so that he can dodge Gai's attacks, especially with sharingan. Gai would quickly be overwhelmed alone taking some genjutsu.

What speed? 30% Itachi hasn't shown speed near Gai. The only thing his shown is genjutsu, which might or might not get Gai, I have my doubts since Gai can fight solely based on feet movement. So Gai most likely > 30% Itachi.

Pre Time Skip Kakashi- Has sharingan and high speed so he can dodge Gai's movements. Can counter the nunchuks with his skill in kunai. Ninjutsu arsenal will slowly overwhelm Gai.

Kunais arent worth shit in Naruto, he hasnt shown any ninjutsu save raikiri that would pose a threat to someone as fast and as experienced as Gai, raikiri is almost impossible to land against someone who is faster, more skilled in close combat, and who expects it to be coming. I personally don't think the Sharingan would be enough to level out the gap between their speed, power, stamina, and taijutsu skills. BTS Kakashi can't fight for long with the sharingan activated.



Asuma - Faster than Kakashi and only slightly worse in ninjutsu, Asuma would easily take this. Gai is only slightly faster and Asuma could just cut him down with his wind blades.

Slightly faster? I don't think Asuma has demonstrated speed = to that of 5 gates Lee at base form. But yeah, I think PTS Asuma could take him down.


Kabuto - Decent speed, but enough to at least keep up with Gai for a bit. He can heal any wounds from being punched and kicked by the highly physically strong Gai. However, it won't be tough to hit Gai with his chakra scalpel while taking a hit.

His speed sucks, same goes for his stamina and taijutsu. It's a toss up, but I'd say Kabuto should be able to recover from a few mountain crushing blows (although he wasn't able to regenerate a rasengan without losing all his chakra with a soldier pill) and get a lucky hit on Gai. He'd probably lose all his chakra in the process of healing his shattered bones though.


Zabuza - His weakness is speed, so Gai's victory is a possibility. Gai, who would use nunchuks against any sword user, would lose the advantage against Gai. Gai hides in his mist and Gai is fucked.


lol wtf?

Yeah your right, but only because Zabuza is killer against anyone who can't fight without using their eyes.

[Asuma: Konoha's Blade]

i believe he did, but Kisame was just as fast.

No, Kisame had the advantage in speed, but it was his physical stregnth that ultimately overwhelmed Gai.

What speed? 30% Itachi hasn't shown speed near Gai. The only thing his shown is genjutsu, which might or might not get Gai, I have my doubts since Gai can fight solely based on feet movement. So Gai most likely > 30% Itachi.

Sasuke, after the chuunin exam was said to be as fast as Lee without weights. When he fought Itachi, Itachi outclassed Sasuke in every aspect of shinobi by a huge margin without trying, including speed.

Same with Kabuto, if he gets a shot with a genjutsu, that'll give him enough opening to finish Gai.

Kunais arent worth shit in Naruto, he hasnt shown any ninjutsu save raikiri that would pose a threat to someone as fast and as experienced as Gai, raikiri is almost impossible to land against someone who is faster, more skilled in close combat, and who expects it to be coming. I personally don't think the Sharingan would be enough to level out the gap between their speed, power, stamina, and taijutsu skills. BTS Kakashi can't fight for long with the sharingan activated.

Yeah kunai are worthless, but Kakashi was resourceful enough with them to take out Zabuza's arms. Thats more impressive than anything Gai did with his nunchuks. Also, Kakashi would quickly overwhelm Gai with massive ninjutus like this:

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume37.msnw?action=ShowPhotoID=41334

Kakashi has shown plenty of suitons strong enough to keep Gai on his toes, and lets not forget Kakashi has a 5/5 in ninjutsu.

Slightly faster? I don't think Asuma has demonstrated speed = to that of 5 gates Lee at base form. But yeah, I think PTS Asuma could take him down.

Your Base Gai = 5 Gates Lee in speed is a possibility, but nonetheless an assumption. Besides, Asuma has 4.5/5 in speed as Gai has a 5/5. But we agree on this one, so we'll quit arguing here.

His speed sucks, same goes for his stamina and taijutsu. It's a toss up, but I'd say Kabuto should be able to recover from a few mountain crushing blows (although he wasn't able to regenerate a rasengan without losing all his chakra with a soldier pill) and get a lucky hit on Gai. He'd probably lose all his chakra in the process of healing his shattered bones though.

Well, Kabuto was capable of fighting after being hit by a rasengan, I think he'll be ok against a few punches and kicks, however strong they may be. Besides, medical ninjas are supposed to be experts in evasion, so he can probably even dodge Gai's movements, and when he fails, he can heal himself. The battle will only last as long as it takes for Kabuto to get a lucky shot.

lol wtf?

Yeah your right, but only because Zabuza is killer against anyone who can't fight without using their eyes.

Haha sorry for that retarded post, and sorry for this quote button error.

Well we agree on Zabuza too. But truthfully, No Gates Gai is not on a high jounin level and is far less useful to his team than the other high jounin.

[kojak488]

So am I allowed to participate in the next tournament on kojak488? If not, please tell me now. Either way you can't stop me from participating since my dupe account is already up and running. Good luck finding out who my other account is, Risu.

[Esponer]

kojak, if we were interested in banning you from the tournament we'd disallow your account and any account run by a blatant asshole. You can go against the rules of the forum by creating dupe accounts and masking your IP, but I doubt you can stop yourself from being who you are.

[Law]

kojak, if we were interested in banning you from the tournament we'd disallow your account and any account run by a blatant asshole. You can go against the rules of the forum by creating dupe accounts and masking your IP, but I doubt you can stop yourself from being who you are.

^ And if he CAN...then I'd say we won on that deal.

Kojak, I'm pretty sure after that post, your main account will *not* be allowed to participate. Both in making a team and in voting.

Good luck fooling everyone. You probably don't think it will be difficult since everyone's intelligence is so below yours here...

[kojak488]

This, of course, wouldn't be the first place I've done it. Once you can identify your own habits it's quite easy to place them in check. So what's the verdict? Am I going to participate on this name so you know it's me or on another account? At least if it's on here you guys know it's me and I don't need to go through any extra effort.

[Violent By Design]

It would most likely depend if you keep acting like a herb.

[Kyon]

I'm kojak's dupe.

VBD, I've never heard that expression before. :oh

I'm back. I guess. But I'm taking two jobs and a week long vacation soon. My summer is fuckin busy.

I have to raise the money to go to France and Spain next year though. Get to spend my birthday in Madrid. :amuse

[Law]

This, of course, wouldn't be the first place I've done it. Once you can identify your own habits it's quite easy to place them in check. So what's the verdict? Am I going to participate on this name so you know it's me or on another account? At least if it's on here you guys know it's me and I don't need to go through any extra effort.

You're also smart enough to realize that by talking like this, you will never be allowed to participate under this name. Because if we, or some dumb asshole said : "Ok, since you're going to participate anyway, we will allow this name to be the contestant" then you could just as easily have this one AND another.

So at this point in the game, Kojak488 is going to pretty much be B.O.S as you're sitting here threatening to use dupes, which are against the forum rules. So you're saying: "geez, you know I'm just gonna do it anyway...so just let this one go!" Oh, well in that case...sure, why not? Fuck no. You're not as smart as you think you are, if you expected people to fall for that.

And I hope you're REALLY good at role-playing, because I know I'm not the only one who will be analyzing any new member posting in the next tournament. Well, I would have been doing that anyway due to the end of this tourney...but now moreso. But I know that won't stop you, so good luck pretending to be someone you're not. The moment you flip out on someone for the way they argue against you...it will be pretty obvious. And hell, Kojak...if you are able to role-play a normal, decent and non-irritating person for the tournament...well, I think we all win in that situation.

Kyon! Where do you work? PM incoming.


Ok Battledome...is this tournament friggin finished yet?? Can we set a time of death yet?

[kojak488]

What you're forgetting is that I'm really, really lazy. I'm not trying to pull a guise to get extra votes; I already proved my point in that arena. If you think I'm going to go that route I can just use ten duplicate accounts to the point that one more vote wouldn't matter, but that takes a lot more effort. Even just switching between two accounts is more than I want to do.

Incase you missed what I'm saying it's that I've no reason to use two or more accounts at this point. In the last tournament I saw it done and put my own plan into action to show how easy it was during that status quo. I've exposed to you that, even under the new security, it's still way too easy. What more do I have to gain? Well if that's the decision then I'll use my new main. I really can't wait to make you guys think my duplicate is some other account and get that innocent person banned. Oh this is going to be fun (and more work than I wanted.. I hat you).

[Kai]

Ok Battledome...is this tournament friggin finished yet?? Can we set a time of death yet?
I want to get this over with, so I'll post the final.

[Law]

^ I would have liked to just say: "Citan and the 4th Hokage/Kai draw the match." Due to how things went down, I don't feel like we need to crown a winner here.

And Kojak, you're going to try and do whatever you want, so why are you asking? Sitting here, telling people you're just gonna use a dupe if you're not allowed to play is something I would expect from a 12 year old.

[kojak488]

Because if I can participate on kojak I've no need to continue using the dupe. The fact is that I can't be stopped from participating one way or the other, but I can be stopped from participating on kojak. All I want is to just participate on this name, but I can't seem to get a proper answer on that ruling.

[Esponer]

At this moment, there isn't anybody really running the tournament. However, take it as a no, kojak, because that's what it's going to be.

[Citan]

how many points are going to be available in the trial 50 60 70?

[Law]

70 points for the trial.

[Law]

Double-posting to say that I'm going to post the Trial Registration this afternoon unless someone has an objection to it.

And I will be explaining the rules for the Trial there, as decided by the posts in this thread.

Gonna do that in about twenty to thirty minutes, so if someone thinks it should not be done...say so.




[edit] LOL can our teams use the walkie-talkie things that Team 7 used in the cat chase??? :'^o Not that I'm thinking of some tournament-breaking strategy or anything............

[eDyH]

Does Weak Kakuzu start with his masks separated from his body, or is he just like regular Kakuzu excluding the Doton Mask?

[Violent By Design]

Results from the trial tournament

I've been analyzing a few matches (not all of them yet). But I will bring up issues/suggestions as we go on through the tournament.

1) When I suggested adding Team Rain I never intended for them to be worth 1 point each. I think they should each be worth 2 Points. Even though the genjutsu's are low ranked, they have real amazing effects.

2 Another issue about Team Rain. Similar to what we did with the Demon Brothers, I feel that we can make Team Rain be packaged into one. So for 6 points or what ever you can automatically get Team Rain. Or maybe have a bargain deal and make Team Rain worth 4 Points.

3 This is refering to the tier system. Now since we are having a 70 point tournament, if we decide to keep it like this. We can now balance the tiers even more.

How you say? Well since this tournament first started there have always been people who say characters can solo teams. Well not that we have 70 points to work with. We can finally make the top tiers worth 50 points. This is still strong enough to have a High Jounin partner, but not broken enough to have a Kage partner.


Because when you think about it

Sasaori, Broken as hell

Kakuzu, Broken as hell (big ass tank. Very few weaknesses)

We could ARGUABLY add KN3 Naruto into 50 points now. But it's what ever.

Though Orochimaru might take a blow from this.




Discuss.

[Law]

^ I dunno man, I think Deidara will kill Sasori in a 1v1. Lower point characters have a chance against someone above them based on skill type.
I think what we should do is keep the 50 point idea around so that we can slot in characters that are more powerful than Sasori, Kakuzu and Oro. (Like Itachi, Kisame, Zetsu, Bh, etc.)

Just because one person believes a character is "broken as hell" doesn't mean everyone sees it that way. Sasori wasn't the weakest Akatsuki, but he was by far not the strongest. Kishi wouldn't kill his characters in reverse order. We should be seeing characters like Jiraiya and the aforementioned Akatsuki out-perform anyone we have seen thus far, and then justify having a higher "Legendary" tier of some kind.

Once again, after his fight with Sasuke, I don't really believe Deidara < High Kage. I don't necessarily think that Sasuke could have defeated Sasori...but this is not a A > B, B > C, so therefore A > C system. I think Deidara would take down Sasori and possibly Kakuzu (if people could agree on whether C2 and C3 can damage doton skin, we would have a definitive result)

[Violent By Design]

Of course there are characters stronger then Saosori but most of the characters that are debetably stronger then him aren't even picks in the tournament.

I don't really know if Deidera can beat Sasori, I mean Deidera is over all weaker then sasori, so Sasori must have an ace up his sleeve against him. I think Kakuzu is more or less unbeatable in a LOT of situations. But it's just my opinion and im just throwing out the 50 Point idea. Plus it would boost up Chuunin use. But I'm j ust throwing this out there.

[eDyH]

So, Kyon's opponent is a no-show. IMO, if someone doesn't show up for their own match, it should be considered automatic forfeit. Even if they win 12 votes to 0, that basically has their team riding through on the strategies submitted by the spectators.

Opinions?

[Citan]

i agree with edyh. wasnt this talked about earlier

[Law]

I agree with Edyh.
It's no knock on someone...I mean, hey, real life is more important. But given that same token, they shouldn't be too upset if they lose by default for not showing up.

It would be no different than if that person's team actually never showed up for their match. Upon arriving, SBT's team notices their player is not there...and would forfeit/retreat.

I do not think we should allow a team to win if they are not represented.

[Esponer]

I disagree with edyh.

[Law]

^ Any explanation?

To me, this tournament should be 50% strategy and 50% who they chose.
I don't care who you are, or what team you create...if you're not there to give your strategy, you should lose.

Once again, the analogy of a sports team deciding not to show up for their match comes to mind. It's an auto-forfeit.

[Esponer]

Reasoning self-evident: some players may not be available in the rather small time margin; some voters may feel that basically any strategy may be successful due to one team having a massive advantage; the shinobi lacking a quick 60-second strategy rundown from their contractor (the player) can still be assumed to behave with their own strategies. I think if you post a strategy you tell the team what you'd like them to do, and if you don't they just behave in-character.

[Law]

2-4 days should be more than sufficient time for a participant to make it to the forums to make one post.
If it is not, they will not mind terribly if they lose.

Sorry, in my opinion their team is a no-show, and no amount of amazing team creation changes that. The best ninja tandem in the tournament should still lose if its creator is not there to give an argument.

PM the participant to get their ass over here to post an argument, otherwise I don't see why we should count their victory whatsoever.

[Violent By Design]

I disagree. If a person doesn't show up to support his team, then isn't he already at a huge disadvantage? So your pretty much just holding a grudge against people who don't bother to show up.

If someone picked 50 Sakura's and faced a normal team which was capable of raping them. And the guy wtih the normal doesnt show up, the guy with 50 Sakura's win?

The tournament is about who has the best team. The people who own the teams have to convince everyone why there team is better. This isn't starcraft, you can't make your Naruto do this and make your Shika do that. It's your word against the other persons word.

[Law]

I disagree, I think the tournament is about who has the best strategy coupled with the team to make it happen.

And yes, the guy with 50 Sakuras should win if his opponent doesn't show up.
It is not biased at all. If you can't bother to make one post in your own thread, than obviously it's not so important to you that you would be heartbroken if you took a loss because of it.

I'm sorry, but it's an absolute joke when someone wins without showing up. That is insulting and quite stupid. It happened in the last tournament, and it was stupid. It should never be allowed to happen again, and I don't see why it's a biased thought. If they don't show up, how on earth could they expect to win?

Flawed.

[Violent By Design]

I don't like the idea of a bye though. Actually I came up with an idea.

How about this.

When the tournament is filled up there are bound to be people who would like to participate. How about we make a reserved/substitution list. People will post there teams and wait patiently. If someone doesn't show up to their first round match up, they get replaced by the first person on the list.

[Law]

No one is going to be sitting here "waiting patiently".

How long do we wait before calling one of the secondaries to fill in?
What if the original person comes back as the secondary is beginning to argue their strategy?

This tournament doesn't need to be any SLOWER than it is. There's no reason why someone should not be able to type up one post. Even if they type up their strategy and go AWOL for a week...they need to be able to commit at least that much time or don't bother being in the tournament.

Once again, RL will ALWAYS take precedence over a forum. And thus, by the same token...if RL is taking their time, they should not be upset over losing a match by forfeit for not showing up.

[edit] dammit this site is pissing me off. I'm not computer literate enough to know what their problem is, but for cryin out loud...get it fixed already.

[Violent By Design]

No one is going to be sitting here "waiting patiently".

How long do we wait before calling one of the secondaries to fill in?
What if the original person comes back as the secondary is beginning to argue their strategy?

This tournament doesn't need to be any SLOWER than it is. There's no reason why someone should not be able to type up one post. Even if they type up their strategy and go AWOL for a week...they need to be able to commit at least that much time or don't bother being in the tournament.

Once again, RL will ALWAYS take precedence over a forum. And thus, by the same token...if RL is taking their time, they should not be upset over losing a match by forfeit for not showing up.

[edit] dammit this site is pissing me off. I'm not computer literate enough to know what their problem is, but for cryin out loud...get it fixed already.

It's not like theres a test to see how crediable a person is. ANYONE can join this tournament. So it's not like we'd know if they'd show up or not.

What's stopping us from setting a 2-3 day check in? I just think it's stupid that a person can advance with out facing anyone. I mean like I said if another person isn't showing up for his matches, chances are he is not going to win the tournament.

[Law]

There IS a 2-3 day check in/grace period.
If you want to PM SBT, be my guest. If he/she reads it and posts his/her strategy..then beautiful.

The 2-3 days or more that their match is active should be more than enough grace period.
If you feel bad for them, PM them. As far as I'm concerned, if they're not checking the thread - odds are they're not checking PMs and have no intent to do so.

It's unfortunate...but...so what? If I stopped logging into the forums, I would fully expect to lose, and I wouldn't care. If I'm not here, and it's not important to me, then why should winning or losing be somehow important?

[Violent By Design]

There IS a 2-3 day check in/grace period.
If you want to PM SBT, be my guest. If he/she reads it and posts his/her strategy..then beautiful.

The 2-3 days or more that their match is active should be more than enough grace period.
If you feel bad for them, PM them. As far as I'm concerned, if they're not checking the thread - odds are they're not checking PMs and have no intent to do so.

It's unfortunate...but...so what? If I stopped logging into the forums, I would fully expect to lose, and I wouldn't care. If I'm not here, and it's not important to me, then why should winning or losing be somehow important?

I don't get it. You said the tournament is about strategy. Then that's obviously not the case.

If it's about strategy, then why would you need a rule that states a person who doesn't show up automatically loses. Shouldn't the person just naturally lose?

I mean come on how is someone going to make it past 2 rounds by not showing up? If you can't beat someone who doesn't even have to have a defending argument, then why do you deserve to win?

[Law]

They do it because other people post strategies for them, and although they shouldn't be accepted, it doesn't matter because people are sheep and simply vote away as if the participant showed up.

I'm saying this should be avoided quickly and easily. If the person doesn't show up, there is no strategy, and therefore no team to vote for.

You're basically not refuting my points anymore, just illustrating why it's a stupid idea to let them win if they don't show up.

In other words, voters should NOT be jumping into a match and creating strategies for anyone else. EVER. Take the strategy they posted and explain why it would work, and what they could do with the ideas put forth by the poster...but no one should be creating stand-alone strategies for someone else's team.

[eDyH]

I don't get it. You said the tournament is about strategy. Then that's obviously not the case.

If it's about strategy, then why would you need a rule that states a person who doesn't show up automatically loses. Shouldn't the person just naturally lose?

I mean come on how is someone going to make it past 2 rounds by not showing up? If you can't beat someone who doesn't even have to have a defending argument, then why do you deserve to win?

The problem there is that there are always novelists amongst the voters who like to interpret the situation as if the team they support is their own, essentially doing all of the absentee's work for them. If someone needs to be carried on the backs of the spectators for their team to win, then they don't deserve to win.

[Violent By Design]

They do it because other people post strategies for them, and although they shouldn't be accepted, it doesn't matter because people are sheep and simply vote away as if the participant showed up.

I'm saying this should be avoided quickly and easily. If the person doesn't show up, there is no strategy, and therefore no team to vote for.

You're basically not refuting my points anymore, just illustrating why it's a stupid idea to let them win if they don't show up.

In other words, voters should NOT be jumping into a match and creating strategies for anyone else. EVER. Take the strategy they posted and explain why it would work, and what they could do with the ideas put forth by the poster...but no one should be creating stand-alone strategies for someone else's team.

If people wanna post other strats for people then why should we stop them? Maybe thats how people wanna have the tournament. What are we going to do, just not post in the thread for days in till two people post up strats?

I don't get what you mean about the refuting your points any more. If I refuted your points in the first place, why do I need to repeat myself? Further more, if I think the idea is stupid and I'm explaining why I think it's stupid, then isn't that enough? Wouldn't it be up to you to then refute my points like I did yours?


I just remembered having this debate with you before. I did not recognize you because your avatar has changed. Our points will not mean anything to each other, because quiet frankly I think we just have different opinions on what this tournament is about. So it seems we have to agree to disagree.

[Violent By Design]

The problem there is that there are always novelists amongst the voters who like to interpret the situation as if the team they support is their own, essentially doing all of the absentee's work for them. If someone needs to be carried on the backs of the spectators for their team to win, then they don't deserve to win.

This is true, but why would a person go out of his way to post a strat for someone else?

And what does this have to do with a person not showing up? If a person shows up, another person can still make a strat for him. Hell it's happening right now in the trial tournament. There is no alternate, we can't stop someone else making strats for another person. If someone brings up a good point, then we cannot neglect it. We can't pretend it is never there.

[Esponer]

Coherent sentences, yes… must form. Right. The way I see it, 60-second strategy rundown and all, yada yada. Whatever it was I suggested and you all thought was a great idea. The strategy aspect gives players a chance to make their teams stronger than just selection. My team last tournament, the one that got nowhere, would've got less than nowhere if I couldn't have explained what it was it was built to do.

But if there's no strategy posted, the team just plays itself out on its own. Still working together, but no opportunity to get a leg up with some clever player's idea. I guess I don't really have any major problem with disqualifying people who don't post, but I don't really see it as being necessary either and I don't think their team sits and does nothing because they don't post.

[Distracted]

I have something to say about this issue.

If there isn't someone posting a strategy... then the team basically is going to do what they would do in their character. They won't have ANY game plan and will only respond to the other team.

Obviously if one team without a strategy just has the overwhelming advantage in strength (I.E. A yamato and a Kakashi versus a KN-3 and a pre-skip Sasuke or something) then they will still win, but that's just by the nature of their characters.

I'm really getting kind of fed up with people who ignore the original strategy of the characters and don't realize that characters can be used for more than sheer brute force. In my battle for example, I'm certain that Tsunade and Sarutobi could defeat Kakuzu after a hard fought battle. That isn't inconceivable... but people ignore that... my Kakuzu isn't going for the kill.

He is there to distract them until back up arrives. And unless people think pre-skip Kakashi can take out Sarutobi, I see no reason why this doesn't work. However, people refuse to think of it that way and just try to see who has the biggest firepower. It's not like the characters will stand in a line and launch their strongest attacks at each other until someone falls down.

Shikamaru isn't the only thinking character in the damn manga for god sakes.

Obviously strategies should be taken critically. The more moving parts there are to a strategy, the more is left to chance. So obviously that can be used as a counter... but it HAS to be used as a COUNTER by the other person. If the other person has no strategy, or doesn't post one... then their team will fall at whatever strategy is done against them. It's that simple.

The point of the tournament isn't who can amass the strongest pieces... the point was who can amass the best TEAM. Which inherently implies that there must be some strategy and some thinking about the team.

If someone doesn't post, they should lose unless they have some absurd advantage. (The 70 point system should inhibit that)

Oh and Eddy. You did a great job utilizing Yamato to take out someone who should be superior to him. Great find.

[Law]

hehe thanks Distracted...
Yamato is my wildcard, but I'm just lucky I got pitted against Hidan early.
Once I go up against a team who could destroy the mokuton...I'll be chuckling nervously =P

I think he's vastly underestimated though in general.

[eDyH]

I think Yamato should be 25 pts for the real tourney.... >.>

[Esponer]

I'm really getting kind of fed up with people who ignore the original strategy of the characters and don't realize that characters can be used for more than sheer brute force. In my battle for example, I'm certain that Tsunade and Sarutobi could defeat Kakuzu after a hard fought battle. That isn't inconceivable... but people ignore that... my Kakuzu isn't going for the kill.
One of the issues I have so far in this trial tournament is contestants who believe that their strategy is not being listened to, when in fact the respondents do not believe it would be successful. For instance, I simply do not accept your premise that your team could bring about the state of affairs that the other team's Kakashi is alone to be challenged by your Sarutobi and other pieces, and that Kakuzu is able to stall the other two.

In my mind, your team cannot pick up their Kakashi, throw him a mile in one direction and plop down all your pieces save Kakuzu next to him and call it a kill. You haven't given me any reason to believe Kakashi would be separated from his teammates.

[Distracted]

Esponer I actually had no problem with my debates with you. Your opinions and points were valid. You felt that Kakuzu could not 'distract' the players I had.

You are not who I was speaking of.

[Distracted]

Sorry for the double post but I want people to read this.

Sakura_Blossoms_Tsunade has posted her strategy in her match versus Kyon. I tallied the votes and called a 24 hour till close period after she finally posted her strategy.

So please visit and re-evaluate your thoughts please.

[Violent By Design]

A huge pet peeve are people who pretend no one is reading there post. Just because you make a strategy doesn't mean that it will happen. Some people will view the battles differently, people need to accept this.

[Violent By Design]

More analyzation

Generic Genjutsu's -

Someone brought up the point of Sarutobi being able to at least perform a generic genjutsu. A genjutsu similar to Kakashi's where a person is just trapped in a random illusion. Would anyone mind having Sarutobi being capable of this?

This also applies to Kurenai. Kurenai has only shown to do one genjutsu, but we know she is capable of performing others. Can we let her have a "generic" genjutsu?

[eDyH]

What would the effects of this "generic genjutsu" be?

[Violent By Design]

What would the effects of this "generic genjutsu" be?

Dunno. Guess your just in a random illusion?

This is more for Kurenai's purpose then Sarutobi. I mean what the hell can Kurenai do besides the tree genjutsu?

[eDyH]

I think it would be ok to give Kurenai a generic ability to create illusions, as she is basically useless otherwise.

I don't think it should be given to other characters, though. Almost every Jounin we've seen has at least a 3-3.5 in Genjutsu, so giving them the ability to create illusions would only farther serve to widen the gap between upper and lower tier characters (most of whom haven't shown a rudimentary defense against Genjutsu).

[Violent By Design]

I think it would be ok to give Kurenai a generic ability to create illusions, as she is basically useless otherwise.

I don't think it should be given to other characters, though. Almost every Jounin we've seen has at least a 3-3.5 in Genjutsu, so giving them the ability to create illusions would only farther serve to widen the gap between upper and lower tier characters (most of whom haven't shown a rudimentary defense against Genjutsu).

Agreed. I say we just give generic jenjustus to Kurenai. Other wise you need to have done a genjutsu on screen.

[Kai]

Sorry for the double post but I want people to read this.

Sakura_Blossoms_Tsunade has posted her strategy in her match versus Kyon. I tallied the votes and called a 24 hour till close period after she finally posted her strategy.

So please visit and re-evaluate your thoughts please.
^People may have missed this, as it was the final post on the previous page. Just bumping it.



Someone brought up the point of Sarutobi being able to at least perform a generic genjutsu. A genjutsu similar to Kakashi's where a person is just trapped in a random illusion. Would anyone mind having Sarutobi being capable of this?
Too ambiguous. Although I would agree with "generic genjutsu" if it was used on someone like Lee, who just asks for a double scoop.

[Esponer]

I'm fine with considering the probabilities involved of various shinobi having various techniques, so I don't mind "generic genjutsu" so long as our considerations take into account that it's not a certainty.

[kojak488]

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=9082872&postcount=54

Was reading Id and Distracted's match when I read that post. What's the current ruling on Sarutobi?

[Genis-Vell]

More analyzation

Generic Genjutsu's -

Someone brought up the point of Sarutobi being able to at least perform a generic genjutsu. A genjutsu similar to Kakashi's where a person is just trapped in a random illusion. Would anyone mind having Sarutobi being capable of this?



That was me. :nod

I want to know if Sarutobi is capable of performing a generic genjutsu.
His stats and reputations, seems to point out he can.
Is this enough to make a smart assumption?



This also applies to Kurenai. Kurenai has only shown to do one genjutsu, but we know she is capable of performing others. Can we let her have a "generic" genjutsu?

Yup I want to know this as well. >_>

[Violent By Design]

The problem is people might nitpick about the generic genjutsus in debates. But I think it's fine imo.

[The Truth]

I'm not sure how I feel about the generic genjutsus. For one, genjutsus are confusing enough to use in these battles because its hard to prove that they will be effective. Genjutsus are so underused in the series, that the ones we have seen aren't really that great. I wouldn't be opposed to giving Kurenai use of her filler genjutsus because she doesn't have much else, but Sarutobi already has several jutsus to his name.

[Violent By Design]

I'm not sure how I feel about the generic genjutsus. For one, genjutsus are confusing enough to use in these battles because its hard to prove that they will be effective. Genjutsus are so underused in the series, that the ones we have seen aren't really that great. I wouldn't be opposed to giving Kurenai use of her filler genjutsus because she doesn't have much else, but Sarutobi already has several jutsus to his name.

That's true.

I always take into account in genjutsu battles these things.

Defensively

1) Person has been stated to have high genjutsu tolerance (Anyone with sharigon)

2) Databook has very high genjutsu rating

3) A very old or experienced/intelligent person. (Sakura, Sarutobi, Chiyo etc)


Offensively

1) High genjutsu rating

2) Sharigon


That's really what I go by.

[Spell]

Well, I'm against filler jutsus (even those for Kurenai), because I don't watch them :P. Besides it's Manga BD so people could argue "it's not canon"...

[The Truth]

Well, I'm against filler jutsus (even those for Kurenai), because I don't watch them :P. Besides it's Manga BD so people could argue "it's not canon"...
Well I don't even know what they do to be honest, I just saw pics on leafninja. I just think Kurenai is pretty useless with only one jutsu to her name.

[Spell]

Well I don't even know what they do to be honest, I just saw pics on leafninja. I just think Kurenai is pretty useless with only one jutsu to her name.We can be creative and invent something XD

It's true =/ maybe we should exclude her from the tournament?

[Violent By Design]

We can be creative and invent something XD

It's true =/ maybe we should exclude her from the tournament?

Oh when someone said filler Jutsu I didn't know they were referring to the anime. I rarely watch the anime minus the fillers, so that's DEF a bad idea.

She might need to be excluded from the tournament. If not we could just let her keep that one jutsu.

[Kyon]

If you really want a genjutsu specialist, pick Shoten Itachi. He reversed her jutsu, knows her jutsu via sharingan, and has a whole host of skills, all for only 5 more points.

So yeah, I say exlude her. >_>

[masamune1]

You all do know that most Genjutsu are "Random, Generic" genjutsu, right?

Genjutsu are performed when a ninja takes control of an opponent's Chakra system, and through that plays around with their senses. In other words, there is no variation to the actual technique applied (except in some special cases, like Tsuyokomi); the only reason they vary is because the illusion in question is left to the attackers imagination (if the genjutsu is given a name, it simply means that the ninja employs that Genjutsu frequently, so as not to waste time devising unique genjutsu's for every enemy).

Kurenai can perform (most of) the same Genjutsu techniques that Itachi can, and vice-versa, amongst an infinite amount of others. What differs between them is that Itachi's genjutsu's are more difficult to get out of, easier to perform (because of his skill), and more advanced in there application.
Other than that, the only difference is that the Sharingan makes it easier (as does Tayuya's flute).

Saying Kurenai has only one genjutsu is silly, and shows a misunderstanding of the technique. Sarutobi, and in fact any other nin above Chunnin level (and many below) can indeed perform genjutsu, so basic is it to a ninja's training. The issue is that they just won't be able to use it as well as a ninja like Kurenai or Itachi, since they use it as their primary offence and consquently have practiced with it more.

[Distracted]

I'd be for the idea of a generic genjutsu if we label it's effects and come up with clear ideas of who would be able to resist it.

See people may say that Naruto for example, who has a low genjutsu resistance, won't be able to fight that generic genjutsu off. However, Shoten Itachi said Naruto put a fight against his genjutsu but that it wouldn't work against one of his level.

If we make a general 'generic' genjutsu... it's going to have to be a weak one. Also as Kakashi and Gai have shown... general genjutsu can be dispelled with a simple clasped hand, kai, and reversed chakra for a second.

Sarutobi has a huge list of skills, I'm really adversed to adding genjutsu to his. Also since I didn't know he was going to be allowed this I'd like to revise my strategy cause this is a new ability.

[masamune1]

^Genjutsu is a very basic skill, along with Taijutsu and Ninjutsu.

Like I already said, every ninja in Naruto can use them, the question is how well.

And when do those Tournament matches finish?

[Distracted]

I saw what you said Masamune, but like I said I'm adverse to giving yet anothe ability to Sandaime. Yeah he logically could do it, but a lot of people could 'logically' use genjutsu.

We have no idea how strong it would be, and obviously it wasn't their main battle strategy.

***edit****

re-posting our 2 posts Masamune so that people can read them. They were on the last page and I think we were the only 2 that read them.

You all do know that most Genjutsu are "Random, Generic" genjutsu, right?

Genjutsu are performed when a ninja takes control of an opponent's Chakra system, and through that plays around with their senses. In other words, there is no variation to the actual technique applied (except in some special cases, like Tsuyokomi); the only reason they vary is because the illusion in question is left to the attackers imagination (if the genjutsu is given a name, it simply means that the ninja employs that Genjutsu frequently, so as not to waste time devising unique genjutsu's for every enemy).

Kurenai can perform (most of) the same Genjutsu techniques that Itachi can, and vice-versa, amongst an infinite amount of others. What differs between them is that Itachi's genjutsu's are more difficult to get out of, easier to perform (because of his skill), and more advanced in there application.
Other than that, the only difference is that the Sharingan makes it easier (as does Tayuya's flute).

Saying Kurenai has only one genjutsu is silly, and shows a misunderstanding of the technique. Sarutobi, and in fact any other nin above Chunnin level (and many below) can indeed perform genjutsu, so basic is it to a ninja's training. The issue is that they just won't be able to use it as well as a ninja like Kurenai or Itachi, since they use it as their primary offence and consquently have practiced with it more.

I'd be for the idea of a generic genjutsu if we label it's effects and come up with clear ideas of who would be able to resist it.

See people may say that Naruto for example, who has a low genjutsu resistance, won't be able to fight that generic genjutsu off. However, Shoten Itachi said Naruto put a fight against his genjutsu but that it wouldn't work against one of his level.

If we make a general 'generic' genjutsu... it's going to have to be a weak one. Also as Kakashi and Gai have shown... general genjutsu can be dispelled with a simple clasped hand, kai, and reversed chakra for a second.

Sarutobi has a huge list of skills, I'm really adversed to adding genjutsu to his. Also since I didn't know he was going to be allowed this I'd like to revise my strategy cause this is a new ability.

[masamune1]

I think he should be able to do it. I see your point, but I still think that Sarutobi having Genjutsu is justified.

It would'nt really affect his rank, at all. Most of the ninja on or above his rank will be able to dispel it, and some will have even stronger ones. After all, Genjutsu is Universal, and he would not be the only one able to use it.

In additon, his genjutsu, while in theory the area last affected by his advanced age, is also not his speciality- ninjutsu is. That he never even tried to use it in his fight with Orochimaru should be reason enough for us to decide that his Genjutsu is not on the level of Itachi's or Oro's, and might even be below Kurenai.

Sarutobi is not as "godly" as you fear, in any case. He may know all of the Jutsu in Konoha, but the ones that he can actually use in a village of so many Kekkai Genkai and Jutsu's from genetically altered clan members are few and far between. And being a "Professor"-style ninja is not without it's weaknesses, since it means he is not as specialized as some of those who can use the same techniques, nor has he demonstrated anything unique abilities like almost every other ninja on, above and many blow his level.
A Jack of all Trades is a Master of None.

So let him use genjutsu, because he will not be a master of it.
A-Rank, at best, and his control can be broken.

[Distracted]

Oh I know he's not godly, I picked Sarutobi for one reason, versatility. Adding genjutsu to it is not going to harm my strategy in any way.

The only thing is that I thought he was limited to what he could do in the manga, otherwise we can assume he knows a lot of random things that he hasn't shown.

If we're ONLY making an exception to genjutsu. I mean even Kakashi has shown genjutsu though no one has utilized that aspect of his character (Chapters 2 and 3 people... he caught Sakura in one.)

So it just means I can have him use it on lower area characters that's all.

[Dudemancool]

Naruto has great chakra control.

[The Truth]

Characters should be limited to what they've shown. Sarutobi does not have a need for generic genjutsu. In his battle he showed more jutsus then some characters combined. Kurenai is the only possible exception, and even then i'm not sure i like the idea of leaving its effectiveness up for debate.
Naruto has great chakra control.
No.

[eDyH]

^^ What he said.

Throwing a generic genjutsu in for any character who has average ratings in it would just involve it in too many strategies, and leave too much up to speculation. Leave genjutsu to those who have shown it, and let the others rely on what they've shown; it's more than enough. (Especially with Sarutobi.)

And would anybody be adverse to me starting the next 4 matches soon, or would it be better to wait the 10 hours for Kyon and SBT's match to end?

[Kyon]

If you want to start them, go ahead. I have no objections. My match is pretty much over anyway.

[eDyH]

Super. lol10chars

[Dudemancool]

Naruto can do the Rasengan, and many far more powerful variations.

Normal Rasengan REQUIRES great, if not insane, chakra control.

[The Truth]

Naruto can do the Rasengan, and many far more powerful variations.

Normal Rasengan REQUIRES great, if not insane, chakra control.
If he had great chakra control why couldn't he break out of Itachi's genjutsu? This is kind of off topic so don't feel compelled to respond.smile-big

[Dudemancool]

cause itachi is the genjutsu duder master.

[eDyH]

How are locations going to be chosen for Round 2?

[Kyon]

Eddy and I have taken out the places that take place in Konohagakure, so here are the locations for Round 2.

Valley of the End
Sannin Battlefield
Akatsuki Cave
Temple of Fire

How they're chosen...we haven't decided yet. >_>

Probably in some random order that we'll let you know about.

[kojak488]

Naruto doesn't have great chakra control and that's exactly why he uses Kage Bunshin's for all of his Rasengan tricks. If he was so great at it, then he'd have no problem making Rasengan on his own.

[Distracted]

Kyon I look forward to my match with you. If we end up in that damn cave again though... I'm gonna get screwed!

[Kyon]

It's all in the luck of the all mighty d20. :oh

Or whatever method Eddy and I decide to place the matches. :sag

[Law]

Dammit Kyon, don't give away my almighty strategy of randomization!

I want to bring something up here.

For the real tournament, I would like to have Deidara moved to the same level as Sasori and Kakuzu.
I challenge anyone to pick two characters out of the tier list who could defeat Gaara/Deidara tandem, while staying under 70 points.

I think Deidara has shown the power and strategy to be able to deal with the kage-level characters. I think even if half the people think he would lose 1v1 against Sasori or Kakuzu (I disagree, but ANYway...) that he has shown enough to be on their level in this tournament.

I propose we move Deidara up, plain and simple. I also propose we move Hidan down to 25. My reasoning for this is - just about EVERY team made in this tournament will have knowledge of his abilities. He is a great fighter...but only if he is unknown. I think the likelihood that he goes up against a team who doesn't know him will be much less than the opposite.

[eDyH]

^^ I concur.

[kojak488]

Egh the Deidara fandom is enough for me to agree with moving him up. He's not really worth 40 points as in all seriousness he lost to Kazekage Gaara. At least he beat the three-tails. All he's done is survive..

[Law]

^^ I concur.

On both points? Sweet!

[Law]

Egh the Deidara fandom is enough for me to agree with moving him up. He's not really worth 40 points as in all seriousness he lost to Kazekage Gaara. At least he beat the three-tails. All he's done is survive..

He would have lost to Kazekage Gaara if Gaara did not have to save his village. Maybe. However, he also went into that fight with a small amount of his clay as stated by himself and Sasori.

That's a mechanism, if you were paying attention. It's to show that he is handicapped going into the match. Gaara had MAJOR field advantage, and Deidara used his brains to defeat him by making him defend his village.

None of that suggests Deidara is weaker than Gaara. Just colder and meaner.

[sorry for the double post...and note, I am not saying that this means Sasuke could beat Kazekage Gaara...it's not linear like that. But if you asked ME whether Deidara had a "chance" at defeating every single character in this tournament 1v1, I would say "yes" without hesitation. That alone means that in MY opinion, he should be 40 pts.]

[Kyon]

I don't, but that's because I want Deidara. :P

Hidan I'm sort of okay with. Move him down.

And take out Weak Kakuzu. I don't know why I placed him initially. :(

About you kojak...Deidara beat Gaara. Sure, if Sunagakure wasn't there, but what if they weren't in a desert, Deidara was fully stocked up on clay, and allowed to kill Gaara?

And don't pull that "his underestimation would get him killed" bullshit. Character personalities are disabled now.

If anything, it was stacked in Gaara's favor.

[Kuya]

btw. who the hella r these.

Kagari
Muri
Oboro

[Law]

The rain-nin from the Forest of Death.

[Kyon]

(Wait, I'm a fool, why don't I argue in the favor of letting Deidara stay at 32 points? I'm a genius)

DEIDARA LOST TO KAZEKAGE GAARA. WELL, HE WOULD OF HAD GAARA NOT HAD TO PROTECT HIS STUPID VILLAGE.

DEIDARA LOST TO SASUKE. GAARA CAN BEAT SASUKE. LOL A>B>C

DEIDARA GOT RAPED BY ITACHI.

DEIDARA CALLS SASORI MASTER, AND KISAME MASTER IN THE ANIME.

DEIDARA IS MERE CHUUNIN LEVEL.

MAKE HIM 10 POINTS NAO.

(I hope they fall for it)

[Law]

^ lol @ Kyon's attempt at reverse, flipped, anti-fanboyism cynicism psychology.

Or was it just tard-speak for "lawlz, dun taek mi Deedar away!!!1"

[Kyon]

^ lol @ Kyon's attempt at reverse, flipped, anti-fanboyism cynicism psychology.

Or was it just tard-speak for "lawlz, dun taek mi Deedar away!!!1"

Drat, logical reasoning, my one weakness! :omg

The second line is more or less true. :sag

[eDyH]

I am compelled to agree with Kyon on this issue. Deidara is obviously mere Chuunin level. (Of course, this is on the grounds that I and only I will be allowed to have duplicate characters on my team... for completely unrelated reasons.)

Some suggestions:

Take Weak Kakuzu out...

Move Yamato up a tier. (Mokuton pwns, he's got character knowledge & experience, He's got his Chidori/Rasengan-esque Rapid Smasher thing)

Get rid of the useless characters we know nothing about that were thrown in to inflate the # of people in some tiers. (Hayate Gekko, Kotetsu, Izumo, and the Demon Brothers)

[Law]

lol Edyh...could you provide a chapter number for this "chidori-esque" rapid smasher? That would be wondahful.

[eDyH]

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume37.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=41355

Rapid Smasher is only what it's called in my saved translation, I guess.

Edit: Maybe I shouldn't have brought it up.... You're good enough at arguing for Yamato anyway. >.>

[Law]

lol I still haven't seen this rapid smasher thing.

[Distracted]

A team of Kakuzu and Weak Kakuzu could beat Deidara and Gaara in tandem. What now?

not only did I stay under 70 points but I managed to leave some left over!

If I may say so eddy... OWNED!!!

but yeah people seem to have a weird problem with Weakened Kakuzu. Anyone with a decent piercing attack could defeat him. Yamato and Kakashi would destroy him. Anyone in the rank above him would kill him.

Hill Hidan could feasibly kill him. It's not my fault all of you vastly overestimate him.

My initial reason for introducing him was that at 50 points, a 40 point Kakuzu was ridiculous. Sasori was far more versatile than him and was at the same price.

Now though with 70 points his use is moot. Or at least move him up a rank so you can't have 2 Kakuzu's.

though the best solution would be remove him altogether.

[Law]

I disagree with you Distracted. I don't think they could at all.

So owned, only in your opinion.

[eDyH]

Distracted's "owning" of Eddy makes me feel a little less depressed about Eddy's oh-so-cold criticism of my description of Yamato's Hahonryu...... but only a little...

:cry

[Law]

Oh, so you mean KWGoD = rapid smasher? lol ok, I get it now.
They seem like they would be pretty powerful, yup.

I would vote for Deidara/Gaara to beat Kakuzu and Weak Kakuzu pretty much instantly.

[eDyH]

Hahonryu =/= KWGoD....

... or am I missing out on some form of highly developed sarcasm.....?

[Law]

Edyh, could you please just link me to a picture of what the "rapid-smasher" is please? Because your original link had me go through a full chapter before I saw Yamato, so I assumed the first thing I saw him do was what you meant.

Thanks.

[Distracted]

How could Gaara do anything to Kakuzu? He could Shunshin over to Gaara, Raiten elemental at him... and while Gaara leaps out of the way of that Kakuzu Shunshins behind him and crushes his skull... then he holds it over his body and drenches himself in the blood yelling an inhuman battle cry.

Deidara would have to get off the ground... and then Kakuzu would just play Shunshin dash avoiding the explosives... if he couldn't get out of the way he'd launch a Jutsu at it and make an explosion... and if all else fails he has his doton armor.

Deidara will run out of Clay or fly too low on accident LONG before Kakuzu is in any serious trouble.

Then Deidara has to either fly away or he's on the ground... and we all know what Kakuzu would do to deidara if he was on the ground (Crushed Skulls anyone?)

[eDyH]

Edyh, could you please just link me to a picture of what the "rapid-smasher" is please? Because your original link had me go through a full chapter before I saw Yamato, so I assumed the first thing I saw him do was what you meant.

Thanks.

Eh, you caught it fast then. I had the wrong link up for a minute or two. I fixed it.

[Law]

Oh man, that was one of the more fanboyish things I've read from you Distracted, lol
Raiton in a line will pierce doton...obviously. But Gaara can easily provide enough sand to delay both Kakuzus for enough time that both him and Deidara could take flight.

Once they reached an altitude where Kakuzu's jutsu no longer reached...there isn't anything Kakuzu can do besides run away. C3 will be enough for doton skin.

I didn't say it was a "cool" way to win a fight.

[Distracted]

Once again you're doubting Kakuzu's strength and his speed along with those techniques.

Do you not remember when a weakened Kakuzu launched an elemental jutsu at Kakashi... then shunshin below Kakashi and grabbed him?

What makes you think this wouldn't work against Gaara? I believe Gaara is the only ninja we haven't seen jump at some point (okay when he was transforming he jumped...) he could run out of the way though. Then Kakuzu would grab him.

While the other Kakuzu would be just waiting. What makes you think if it's only Deidara that Kakuzu couldn't just blow away every attack coming at him? Or Shunshin out of the way. While I'm sure Sasuke can Shunshin faster than Kakuzu that doesn't mean that he can't move quite quickly.

(Hey Sasuke was fast enough to scare tobi... yeah I went there... but you called me a fanboy!)

I don't get this group of people. In one thread people are saying Kimi would get slaughtered by a weakened Kakuzu... and here I'm in a debate and in another i'm arguing with you over whether Gaara could crush a full blow Kakuzu.

Seriously... that doesn't make any sense. Kakuzu is one of the few people that can beat Deidara or Gaara. It's that simple.

[Spell]

If he had great chakra control why couldn't he break out of Itachi's genjutsu? This is kind of off topic so don't feel compelled to respond.smile-bigShow me anyone who broke out of Itachis genjutsu :)

Naruto doesn't have great chakra control and that's exactly why he uses Kage Bunshin's for all of his Rasengan tricks. If he was so great at it, then he'd have no problem making Rasengan on his own.He did rasengan on his own even pre timeskip, besides the number of people who are able to perform Rasengan isn't too big. 4 exactly - Naruto, Sannin, Hokage and elite jounin.

I'm not stating Naruto's chakra control is so great. It probably sux if we compare it to Sasuke's or Sakura's, but it is still very good. Consider the fact even the 4th wasn't able to invent FRS.

[The Truth]

Show me anyone who broke out of Itachis genjutsu:)

I'll do better, i'll show you 2 people who never got caught in the first place:

Chiyo

Sakura

:P

[Spell]

I'll do better, i'll show you 2 people who never got caught in the first place:

Chiyo

Sakura

:PIt's because he has never attempted to bind them :)

[Kyon]

This is extremely off-topic, but Risu, which country in Europe are you from?

[Law]

It's because he has never attempted to bind them :)

That's a matter of opinion, actually. Many people would argue that Itachi's finger-genjutsu was aimed at everyone if they chose to look.

We have no idea if Naruto was the only one affected.

[Spell]

This is extremely off-topic, but Risu, which country in Europe are you from?Neg for off topic questions XD
I'm from Poland (it's not in Russia lol...:P). I leave in a city with the highest quantity of tourists in the world (most of them are drunk pub lovers from Great Britain

That's a matter of opinion, actually. Many people would argue that Itachi's finger-genjutsu was aimed at everyone if they chose to look.

We have no idea if Naruto was the only one affected.Well, it's possible, but I doubt it. Itachi directed his finger towards Naruto saying "blah blah, you Naruto, blah blah". He doesn't seem to be interested in others. I think is quite logic, Itachi aimed for him.

[The Truth]

It's because he has never attempted to bind them :)
His intent was to bind whoever looked at his finger, not Naruto specifically.

[Spell]

His intent was to bind whoever looked at his finger, not Naruto specifically.No, that doesn't seem logic to me ( I stated reasons in my previous post). Look at the scan:
http://www.onemanga.com/media/mangas/00000004/00000258/04.jpg

He clearly aimed for Naruto.

[kojak488]

SHe did rasengan on his own even pre timeskip, besides the number of people who are able to perform Rasengan isn't too big. 4 exactly - Naruto, Sannin, Hokage and elite jounin.

I'm not stating Naruto's chakra control is so great. It probably sux if we compare it to Sasuke's or Sakura's, but it is still very good. Consider the fact even the 4th wasn't able to invent FRS.

When did Naruto perform it pre-skip with one hand? Against Sasuke in Valley of the End? That was Kyuubi, not Naruto. Not literally of course. When Naruto has to use his chakra he can't perform Rasengan, but when he's influenced by Kyuubi he's done it once. If the Kyuubi wasn't inside of him he'd never have performed a one-hand Rasengan (and likewise wouldn't have Rasengan either... which isn't the point).

Naruto can't do a one-hand Rasengan. Kyuubi can. Again, not literally.

[Kyon]

Hasn't Naruto done a one handed Rasengan post skip w/o Kyuubi? I distinctly remember it, but can't seem to remember where.

[Spell]

When did Naruto perform it pre-skip with one hand? Against Sasuke in Valley of the End? That was Kyuubi, not Naruto. Not literally of course. Not literally? So Sasuke didn't perform this powerful chidori in VotE. It was CS:nuts

And I can't see any KB's here:
http://www.onemanga.com/media/mangas/00000004/00000337/015.jpg

When Naruto has to use his chakra he can't perform Rasengan, but when he's influenced by Kyuubi he's done it once. If the Kyuubi wasn't inside of him he'd never have performed a one-hand Rasengan (and likewise wouldn't have Rasengan either... which isn't the point).And when Naruto is not influenced by Kyuubi's chakra?

Naruto can't do a one-hand Rasengan. Kyuubi can. Again, not literally.We've got 5 Rasengan users:nuts . Not literally of course.

[Distracted]

Okay damnit I'm going to be damning myself here but I have to say it.

What is with all of the idiocy around Kakuzu? Melting the doton armor with explosions? Thinking Deidara can hit him when Kakuzu can shunshin and Sasuke is using that so effectively?

Gaara crushing him?

No one has even tried to say Gaara would drag him under ground cause that's the only viable strategy Gaara really has against Kakuzu... and even then given enough time Kakuzu could possibly break out... but he'd be worn out afterwards.

Does no one realize that you have to destroy the Doton armor and then his effectiveness drops drastically? Without it Gaara can kill him. With it, Gaara doesn't stand a chance in the world.

Deidara as well... without the Doton armor Deidara actually has a chance at killing Kakuzu.

That was the point of the weak Kakuzu in the first place. It gave you elemental combinations, a fast and strong fighter, but he was basically just a level or two above Kakashi, and with the MS Kakashi could take him.

Just... geeze... I mean I made my team to test the limits of Kakuzu and now I'm amazed at how far people are off on his abilities. He's not invincible you just have to hit him where it hurts.

[Esponer]

What is with all of the idiocy around Kakuzu?
Different opinions.

Melting the doton armor with explosions?
I missed the part with the idiocy.

Thinking Deidara can hit him when Kakuzu can shunshin and Sasuke is using that so effectively?
Again, I cannot see any idiocy. Sasuke is the most skilled user of shunshin in the series at the moment. Almost all shinobi use it, so there is no logic in claiming that Deidara cannot deal with Kakuzu because the latter is a shunshin user and there is one shinobi who uses shunshin Deidara cannot deal with. Kakuzu's shunshin failed to be impress me all that much, anyway. Nothing out of the ordinary for someone of his level.

Gaara crushing him?

No one has even tried to say Gaara would drag him under ground cause that's the only viable strategy Gaara really has against Kakuzu... and even then given enough time Kakuzu could possibly break out... but he'd be worn out afterwards.
Gaara's sand crushing him is a question mark: we know little of the compressive strength of kurogane karada, although we can assume that it is high in addition to the stated increase in hardness. I'd certainly agree that none of Gaara's attacks in Part I would be effective. Odd that nobody's mentioned drowning and suffocating him.

[Shiron]

He's not invincible you just have to hit him where it hurts.
Well, that's what you're making it sound like, at least when he has his doton shield up. However, this may or may not be the case. Deidara's bombs, especially ones like C3, might be powerful enough to severely damage Kakuzu even with the shield up. And Gaara might be able to crush him even when he has his doton shield up. We don't know exactly how strong Kakuzu's doton shield is so we cannot say for sure.

Thus there is no reason to assumme that it could protect him from something as powerful as Deidara's C3 bomb as we didn't see it protect him from something that powerful. Saying it could would be nothing more than committing the beginnings of a no-limits fallacy in terms of its strength.

But in any case, what I'm trying to get at here is that Kakuzu's doton shield clearly has limits. The trick is determining what exactly these limits are, since we didn't get an actual chance to see them before Kakashi destroyed Kakuzu's doton heart by taking advantage of the power that raiton jutsus like Raikiri have over dotons.

[Kyon]

Odd that nobody's mentioned drowning and suffocating him.

You've apparently never read my strategies regarding Kakuzu. :oh

[Esponer]

You've apparently never read my strategies regarding Kakuzu.
I was just talking Distracted's word for it.

[Genis-Vell]

In my match I mentioned Tsunade's "Ranshinshou ", being effective aginst Kazuku with his Donton Armor.

I feel delusional, I think I am the only one who thinks this would be effective >_>.

It wont kill him, but he would lose control of his body.

[Esponer]

I agree entirely, Id. In fact, I was the first person to mention that in your thread, not you: back on the first page.

[Genis-Vell]

I agree entirely, Id. In fact, I was the first person to mention that in your thread, not you: back on the first page.

Ah I was not alone :wtf

I missed it by a margin.

[Law]

I would be in agreement that Tsunade's and on a lesser extent, Sakura's tremendous strength would damage Kakuzu when he has his doton skin up.
I think the thing to remember here is the word SKIN. He doesn't have "doton body", he has doton skin.

What is the #1 side-effect of being a long-time professional boxer? It's not the tearing and ripping damage done to their skin, I'll tell you that. I'm sorry, but if Kakuzu sustained a punch in the head from Tsunade...his skin might be intact, but his brain is mushy liquid.

And, Distracted, it sure seems like you should retract your statement of fact to a statement of opinion. Because it sure as hell isn't just me who is skeptical of doton skin's defensive strength versus extreme heat explosions. It has never even been hinted that he could withstand that blast...so why would you all of a sudden call me stupid for saying that it is my opinion that it couldn't. So far, a sword, a kunai, and a sharp and spiky meatball couldn't take his skin down. NONE of that is even remotely close to a C3 explosion. Exploding tags are child's play in consideration.

[Spell]

Again, I cannot see any idiocy. Sasuke is the most skilled user of shunshin in the series at the moment. Almost all shinobi use it, so there is no logic in claiming that Deidara cannot deal with Kakuzu because the latter is a shunshin user and there is one shinobi who uses shunshin Deidara cannot deal with. Kakuzu's shunshin failed to be impress me all that much, anyway. Nothing out of the ordinary for someone of his level.
It's uncommon for me to disagree with you, but well...

The truth is we have no proof Sasuke is faster than Kakuzu. It's true his shunshin is very impressive but I seriously doubt he could compete with Itachi. It's a reasonable assumption based on manga facts, circumstances and plot issues. Making Sasuke faster (or even comparable) than Itachi so early would make no sense.

But back to Kakuzu. He is fast. He is a speed beast. Recall the fight against Kakashi.

Without sharingan kakashi would be unable to read his seals
http://www.onemanga.com/media/mangas/00000004/00000333/09.jpg

After Kakashi hit him with Chidori, he suddenly appeared in front of him. Kakashi wasn't even able to respond.
http://www.onemanga.com/media/mangas/00000004/00000334/04.jpg

Kakashi performs Suiton:
http://www.onemanga.com/media/mangas/00000004/00000336/12.jpg
Kakuzu appears under him and binds him in a split second. (notice how surprised is Kakashi, he wasn't able to do anything). Kakashi's speed is nothing compared to Kakuzu's
http://www.onemanga.com/media/mangas/00000004/00000336/13.jpg

[Distracted]

I don't have a problem with all the tactics mentioned so far and I think people are taking my argument the wrong way. Which could entirely be my fault, so let me clarify.

1. The doton armor (skin or otherwise) protects him from physical attacks. Yes Tsunade and Sakura could hurt him theoretically... but some people make it sound like it would crush him. If Orochimaru can take a blow to the chin and be fine, I'm certain Kakuzu could take a blow with his doton armor on and still be standing.

It would hurt, but it would take a lot more hits to take him out.

2. Deidara's explosions - - They can't MELT his armor. That was my complaint. His stronger explosions should be able to hurt him I have no problem with that idea. Kakuzu would also be able to shunshin and get out of the direct hit of the blast and avoid any serious damage.

smaller explosions shouldn't do much to him except in VERY large numbers over a long period of time.

Yet no one has posited that strategy... I've even TOLD people to use that strategy. That's all.

It just hurts me when I see something like that, and then in another thread someone is arguing weakened Kakuzu could take down Kimi. Kimi is someone whom I feel is one of the very few capable of taking out weakened Kakuzu with relative ease. (Let Kakuzu get close, stab his heart, then keep stabbing as the new hearts get in)

On one end I'm getting called a fanboy, on the other end people are underestimating him. I see why people want weakened Kakuzu taken out of this tournament.

3. His speed - Risu nailed this one on the head.

I mean he was the major villain of the last arc we had... I guess people are too in awe of Sasuke and Itachi to notice I guess.

[The Truth]

The truth is we have no proof Sasuke is faster than Kakuzu. It's true his shunshin is very impressive but I seriously doubt he could compete with Itachi.
What does being a better shunshin user have to do with being stronger than Itachi? Did using shunshin keep Shishui from getting killed? Sasuke being better than Itachi at something shouldn't be a surprise. Especially since people take Itachi's speed for granted, ignoring the fact that he has no speed feats to his name.
It's a reasonable assumption based on manga facts, circumstances and plot issues. Making Sasuke faster (or even comparable) than Itachi so early would make no sense.
This early? Sasuke has been trying since he could hold a kunai.

[Spell]

What does being a better shunshin user have to do with being stronger than Itachi? Did using shunshin keep Shishui from getting killed? Sasuke being better than Itachi at something shouldn't be a surprise. Especially since people take Itachi's speed for granted, ignoring the fact that he has no speed feats to his name.
1. Do you have any evidence Shisui's shunshin was better than Itachi's?
No, you don't have. Itachi was hiding his true abilities all the time. It wouldn't be a surprise if his shunshin exceeded Shisui's.

2. Sasuke and Itachi are alike. They are brothers. Their fighting style is based on similar abilities - sharingan (+ related jutsus) and cosiderable speed. Without Orochimaru's influence thay would be even more similar. Consider the fact it's rather logic, Orochimaru did not teach him this shunshin. It's almost certainly related to Uchiha blood. Sasuke is 6 years younger (IIRC) than Itachi. Therefore it wouldn't be wise to make Sasuke faster than him at this age.

3. We haven't seen anyone who can compete with Itachi in speed. No one was even close. the gap between him and Kakashi is probably even bigger than between Kakashi and Kakuzu.

This early? Sasuke has been trying since he could hold a kunai.I don't understand.

[Grrblt]

I would be in agreement that Tsunade's and on a lesser extent, Sakura's tremendous strength would damage Kakuzu when he has his doton skin up.
I think the thing to remember here is the word SKIN. He doesn't have "doton body", he has doton skin.

What is the #1 side-effect of being a long-time professional boxer? It's not the tearing and ripping damage done to their skin, I'll tell you that. I'm sorry, but if Kakuzu sustained a punch in the head from Tsunade...his skin might be intact, but his brain is mushy liquid.
Are professional boxers wearing armor skins? Skins offer practically no protection from concussive hits, while Kakuzu's armor does. I think a better analogy would be a fully dressed knight taking a hit from a hammer. I don't know how he would feel afterwards because I'm far from an expert, but at least it's a more appropriate comparison.

As for the armor melting from Deidara's attacks or similar. Keep in mind that Kakuzu's armor is a jutsu and he can reform it if it breaks.

[Law]

The skin has nothing to do with what damage is done inside the body, Grrblt.
Brain damage is directly correlated to the brain being shaken against your skull when you get punched in the head. Nerve endings fire off and get damaged.
Throw around an iron box with eggs inside it. The iron box will not sustain damage from the impact, but the eggs will eventually all go splat.


@Distracted: Once again, you merely state that extreme-temperature explosions wouldn't melt his skin. You say it like fact, when it is not fact. That's your opinion, and you can not even back it up with the manga. Being the main villain of one arc does not make you impervious to everyone's attacks...

@Risu: You speak of shunshin like it is the be all, end all ability. Shisui was renowned for his amazing speed and shunshin ability. Itachi killed him, and we don't even know if he was given warning before he died. No matter how fast you are, you don't dodge a kunai aimed at your spine from behind when you don't know it's coming. Why should we all of a sudden assume that Itachi needs shunshin to defeat a shunshin user?

People overestimate speed here. There's a reason why a professional fighter won't just lay down his match and forfeit when faced with a much faster opponent...in these forums, it's almost like he/she should. All the speed in the world doesn't help you if your opponent has predicted and anticipated your movement. Indeed, it is usually the end of a match when one fighter uses his full speed and gets caught by his opponent's anticipated strike.

It was just your comments about how Itachi could be better at shunshin than Shisui that threw me off. Itachi could also be stronger than Tsunade, more of a pervert than Jiraiya and better at using snakes than Oro...but why would we assume this? "Shunshin is necessary!" No, it is not. From everything we have witnessed of shunshin, it is an ability that leaves you vulnerable if your opponent anticipates your move. If Itachi all of a sudden just starts doing all of the same things Sasuke has shown us, it will be very disappointing.

[Violent By Design]

Shizune needs to be added back to the tier list (as low jounin).

[Spell]

@Risu: You speak of shunshin like it is the be all, end all ability. Shisui was renowned for his amazing speed and shunshin ability. Itachi killed him, and we don't even know if he was given warning before he died. No matter how fast you are, you don't dodge a kunai aimed at your spine from behind when you don't know it's coming. Why should we all of a sudden assume that Itachi needs shunshin to defeat a shunshin user? No, you've misunderstood me. I'm not stating Itachi's shunshin is better than Shisui's. My point is there is no evidence Shisui's shunshin was better than Itachi's. Even if he was famous of that move.

People overestimate speed here. There's a reason why a professional fighter won't just lay down his match and forfeit when faced with a much faster opponent...in these forums, it's almost like he/she should. All the speed in the world doesn't help you if your opponent has predicted and anticipated your movement. Indeed, it is usually the end of a match when one fighter uses his full speed and gets caught by his opponent's anticipated strike.I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I'm not overrating speed. I agree with your point here. My issue was to show that Kakuzu is really fast. Nothing more than that.

It was just your comments about how Itachi could be better at shunshin than Shisui that threw me off. Itachi could also be stronger than Tsunade, more of a pervert than Jiraiya and better at using snakes than Oro...but why would we assume this?It's also possible, but manga facts supported common sense dictate something else. I'm not assuming.

"Shunshin is necessary!" No, it is not.I've never said it is.
From everything we have witnessed of shunshin, it is an ability that leaves you vulnerable if your opponent anticipates your move. If Itachi all of a sudden just starts doing all of the same things Sasuke has shown us, it will be very disappointing.Actually he has already showed it.

[Law]

I don't doubt that he knows shunshin. Most high-class shinobi do. I just don't want to see a "lawl, my shunshin is better than your shunshin!" fight where Itachi and Sasuke look like clones of each other using the same moves.

I expect Itachi's combat-intelligence to outweigh most we have seen. I would definitely love to see Sasuke power up CS and use shunshin on Itachi, only to have Itachi snake his hand out and grab Sasuke by the neck mid-move. Once you activate shunshin it seems to suggest you can't alter your path...to me, that makes it very vulnerable.

[Kyon]

Do my eyes decieve me, or is the poll made of win?

[Spell]

I don't doubt that he knows shunshin. Most high-class shinobi do. I just don't want to see a "lawl, my shunshin is better than your shunshin!" fight where Itachi and Sasuke look like clones of each other using the same moves.Sure, that would be pretty lame.

I expect Itachi's combat-intelligence to outweigh most we have seen. I would definitely love to see Sasuke power up CS and use shunshin on Itachi, only to have Itachi snake his hand out and grab Sasuke by the neck mid-move. Once you activate shunshin it seems to suggest you can't alter your path...to me, that makes it very vulnerable.Fanfic? :lmao
That may happen actually :P

Do my eyes decieve me, or is the poll made of win?Indeed :pleased

[Violent By Design]

Should Post Shikamaru really be worth 15 points?

For one thing, Post Shikamaru was the most popular character during the 1st tournament. In the trial tournament no one has picked Post Shikamaru.

I feel like Post Shikamaru was boosted to mid Jounin because of the fact that a lot of people picked him, not because he's to strong for low jounin.

If you think about it, why should Post Sakura be High Chuunin and Post Shikamaru be Mid Jounin?

[Distracted]

@Distracted: Once again, you merely state that extreme-temperature explosions wouldn't melt his skin. You say it like fact, when it is not fact. That's your opinion, and you can not even back it up with the manga. Being the main villain of one arc does not make you impervious to everyone's attacks...


When has Deidara ever shown an 'extreme-temperature' explosion? What manga evidence do you have for such an event? I will gladly detract from my statement if you show any images where the HEAT from deidara's explosions hurt anyone.

If I remember correctly Deidara... an UNARMORED HUMAN (does Kakuzu really count as human by the way?) used the HOT AIR from an explosion to knock himself away. Sasuke and himself were both close and Sasuke got away from it with a shunshin.

Neither had any burn marks. Their clothes weren't singed. Their hair wasn't burning. If the explosion can't burn their skin or their clothes what makes you think it'll do ANYTHING to Kakuzu with doton armor on?

Don't claim I don't have facts when you're claiming yours as one.

[Law]

One of his little bug bombs didn't scorch them, so then it makes sense that an explosion that was easily capable of levelling all of Suna village wouldn't consist of an extreme temperature?

Are we now arguing that an explosion...of the size we saw against Gaara...is not extremely hot?

Is that REALLY what you're trying to argue here?

Wow. I feel like my intelligence is being insulted just by being in this conversation.

That is like you telling me to fuckin prove that a kunai is sharp.

[Grrblt]

The skin has nothing to do with what damage is done inside the body, Grrblt.
Brain damage is directly correlated to the brain being shaken against your skull when you get punched in the head. Nerve endings fire off and get damaged.
Throw around an iron box with eggs inside it. The iron box will not sustain damage from the impact, but the eggs will eventually all go splat.
Throw around an egg with an extra iron shell that is glued on its normal shell on all sides. Does it still go splat?

[Law]

Throw around an egg with an extra iron shell that is glued on its normal shell on all sides. Does it still go splat?

Yes, Grrblt it does. Think about the inside of the egg. Let's say that in order to keep your brain safe, you need the yolk and whites to not mix. So if you throw it around, the shell would be fine, but the contents inside the shell would be fucked.

Your brain is no less fragile.

[Violent By Design]

Yes, Grrblt it does. Think about the inside of the egg. Let's say that in order to keep your brain safe, you need the yolk and whites to not mix. So if you throw it around, the shell would be fine, but the contents inside the shell would be fucked.

Your brain is no less fragile.

I don't think the insides of Kakuzu really matter being as how he can shift his heart around.

I think people forget, Kakuzu isn't that far from Orochimaru on the freak scale. He has tentacles growing out of his ass, he can disassemble his body like what he did to Shikamaru. Hell his whole body is prob sued together.

[Esponer]

And therefore it is proven that he doesn't have a brain? What?

[Violent By Design]

And therefore it is proven that he doesn't have a brain? What?

No but you can't always compare Naruto to real life. Things just aren't like that in the Narutoverse. If Kakuzu could die just from being hit in the head, why would having 5 lives be special?

[The Truth]

1. Do you have any evidence Shisui's shunshin was better than Itachi's?
No, you don't have. Itachi was hiding his true abilities all the time. It wouldn't be a surprise if his shunshin exceeded Shisui's.
I never said Shisui's shunshin was better than Itachi's, but being a legendary shunishin user didn't stop him from getting killed. And also, Itachi hiding his true potential doesn't mean he was a god at everything.
2. Sasuke and Itachi are alike. They are brothers. Their fighting style is based on similar abilities - sharingan (+ related jutsus) and cosiderable speed.
Again, where are you getting this from? From what we've seen it is Sasuke who has the incredible speed not Itachi. Itachi's style, as of now, has consisted of genjutsu. Their styles are really nothing alike.
Without Orochimaru's influence thay would be even more similar. Consider the fact it's rather logic, Orochimaru did not teach him this shunshin. It's almost certainly related to Uchiha blood. Sasuke is 6 years younger (IIRC) than Itachi. Therefore it wouldn't be wise to make Sasuke faster than him at this age.
Again, where are you pulling this from? What does Uchiha blood have to do with using a d ranked jutsu? And did faster speed help Lee fight Kimimaro? Or Gaara? If Sasuke were faster it wouldn't make a difference because Itachi has a 3 tomoe sharingan.

3. We haven't seen anyone who can compete with Itachi in speed. No one was even close. the gap between him and Kakashi is probably even bigger than between Kakashi and Kakuzu.

Post a scan of Itachi's speed feats please. I'd love to see what he's done that surpasses Lee and Gai.
I don't understand.
You said it would be a reasonable assumption(which it wouldn't) that making Sasuke faster wouldn't make any sense because it is too early. My response was that Sasuke has been trying to surpass Itachi for as long as he's been a ninja, and since he has more potential then him, he has to start sometime. The manga is closer to the end than the beginning, and with Sasuke killing off Akatsuki members, this shouldn't be a surprise.

[Kyon]

No but you can't always compare Naruto to real life. Things just aren't like that in the Narutoverse. If Kakuzu could die just from being hit in the head, why would having 5 lives be special?

You also have to remember that this is a story.

If they stabbed Kakuzu in the head, he would die, but that would make for a terrible story. Same with the eye or just suffocating him.

The fact that he has a brain is shown by his ability to move. It doesn't get any simpler than that. If you stab him in the head, he'll die.

Thing is, the hearts are there to prevent you from stabbing him in the head, so most people just focus on the hearts. But with the right combination killing him via stabbing him in the head becomes simple.

So it is special in the Naruverse, but not really all that great to us. We're smarter than the Naruto characters.

[Violent By Design]

You also have to remember that this is a story.

If they stabbed Kakuzu in the head, he would die, but that would make for a terrible story. Same with the eye or just suffocating him.

The fact that he has a brain is shown by his ability to move. It doesn't get any simpler than that. If you stab him in the head, he'll die.

Thing is, the hearts are there to prevent you from stabbing him in the head, so most people just focus on the hearts. But with the right combination killing him via stabbing him in the head becomes simple.

So it is special in the Naruverse, but not really all that great to us. We're smarter than the Naruto characters.

I don't know about that chief. If you cut off a persons head, they shouldn't be able to talk (even if they were some how alive). But that obviously isn't the case if we can cut off Hidans head and he still talks. If you stab Hidans head, he'll most likely still function.

[Kyon]

I'll come up with something for Hidan later, but I was thinking connection by chakra. They never really stabbed his brain.

But I'll give the 24 hr warning on the last 4 matches. I would have earlier...but...

DEATH NOTE. OMFG.

[Violent By Design]

So who was winner of the first tournament?

[eDyH]

citan_________

[Dudemancool]

can u add in itachi full power? and the hebi too. and tobi once he shows more skills. can u guys also add in the First and the Second Hokages? i think they showed enough of their skills to be in the tournament.

itachi should be in high kage

first and second should probably be in low or mid.

[Law]

Hey, my trusty Trial Discussion thread!

Topic of Arguments discussion today:

If Kakashi has his sharingan activated when someone uses a jutsu, that means he should be able to copy and eprform that jutsu even if he hasn't shown it, right? As long as the jutsu is physically possible for him. Like, he can't just copy a kekkai genkai, obviously, but he can use the same Katon that shoten Itachi used in their fight can he not?

Same goes for Itachi.


can u add in itachi full power? and the hebi too. and tobi once he shows more skills. can u guys also add in the First and the Second Hokages? i think they showed enough of their skills to be in the tournament.

itachi should be in high kage

first and second should probably be in low or mid

1. No, he's too unknown and too powerful for what we DO know. Not until we add an entirely new tier.

2. Hebi? We haven't seen enough.

3. Tobi? Are you insane? This is how that would go:
"Ok, so my strategy is...I have Tobi. Please vote for me." And...they would. It will be a while before the Tobi hype is faded, and then he can be in...think Aoba-hype.

4. Shodai and Nidaime...too many people do not believe their zombie forms were close to their true power. Old Sarutobi beat them both, so they couldn't even be 25 points. At 20 points, who would vote against them? I think we had better leave them out.

[Kyon]

Hey, my trusty Trial Discussion thread!

Topic of Arguments discussion today:

If Kakashi has his sharingan activated when someone uses a jutsu, that means he should be able to copy and eprform that jutsu even if he hasn't shown it, right? As long as the jutsu is physically possible for him. Like, he can't just copy a kekkai genkai, obviously, but he can use the same Katon that shoten Itachi used in their fight can he not?

Same goes for Itachi.

I agree very strongly. Kakashi and Itachi should be able to use any jutsu they've seen.

can u add in itachi full power? and the hebi too. and tobi once he shows more skills. can u guys also add in the First and the Second Hokages? i think they showed enough of their skills to be in the tournament.

itachi should be in high kage

first and second should probably be in low or mid.

HA. HAHAHAHAHA.

NO. Itachi will never enter this tournament on account of being horribly overrated. People are saying he can beat the Sannin simultaneously. Tobi would break this tournament, Hebi will probably never get enough screentime, but I'm not too opposed to letting Shodaime and Nidaime in, Nidaime as Low Kage, Shodaime as Mid Kage.

I don't disagree that Nidaime might be able to beat Shodaime, but Shodaime has a larger range of useful skills and has shown more.