Gundam Battle: Freedom vs Wing Zero

[dspr8_rugged]

I found this in another place, and I would like to know your opinion on this one...

Who will win in the Gundam Battle between Freedom and Wing Zero (note: the series version, not that crazy looking Wing Zero Custom in Endless Waltz...)?

Share your thoughts on who will be the victor of this one. Whether mecha or pilot arguments, or what not... heck even silly answers are accepted...

But no idiotic answers like "Shinn owns them all!!" or "Deathscythe rules!" or like that.

I'll share mine later...

[Mindless]

I voted for Kira. Why?

Well, he is as stated, an ultimate beeing, the perfect human, the strongest coordinator. But he wouldn't win just because of that. Seeing Heero in Wing Zero in Endless Waltz against Wu Fei kinda made me loose faith in Heero. He looked so weak, wonder if he even put up a fight? Anyway, Heero ended up with his gundam totaly scrapped at the end, while Kira managed to keep his at least a bit intact. (An arm and a leg gone if im not mistaken)

Anyway, if we take the Wing Zero from Wing then (as you said I should). I suppose Kira would win too. Wing Zero has many times more firepower than Freedom but I think Freedom is alot more agile and fast compared to Wing Zero. So I say Kira would be standing at the end.

[NejiHinata]

Anyway, Heero ended up with his gundam totaly scrapped at the end, while Kira managed to keep his at least a bit intact. (An arm and a leg gone if im not mistaken)


An arm, a leg, all the wings, and it's head were gone.

But, yeah. Freedom would win on agility alone. It's constantly dodge and come up behind the Wing Zero. And with the nuclear power system constantly charging the weapons and phase shift, the Freedom would eventually wittle down that stupid Gundarium armor.

[EE]

I choose heero yui he was just a awesome pilot and the wing zero was a awesome and powerful gundam it was very fast especialy with its wing upgrades

[Nite]

The only two things Wing Zero has going for it are the Zero system and its huge beam rifle. But that rifle seems useless for something as fast as Freedom. Freedom is more agile, faster weapons, and the nuclear power gives it huge endurance.

Plus Freedom is just plain cooler =\

[Chopstickx]

hey my brother made this thread in another forum :wink

anyways...this was a pretty hard choice...
Kira is coordinater and has SEED mode, but Heero has Zero System and pretty much survives any explosion =S plus, both their Gundams pwn xD

so after much thinking i came up with a solution...Heero would win. why? cuz even if Kira has the upperhand or whether its a draw, Heero would just self-detonate and take Kira with him...but knowing Heero he miracoulsy (sp?) survives like he always does... :oh

oh and one more little comment to everyone who says Freedom is more agile and fast...that depends on the pilot's skills and experience IMO. im not trying to say Freedom is a bad Gundam or anything but give it to another pilot and see if its still as fast as it is =/

[Yaman]

maybe if this was put to a fight of just beam sword to beam sword it'd be a little more even but still the freedom would win.

[Nite]

so after much thinking i came up with a solution...Heero would win. why? cuz even if Kira has the upperhand or whether its a draw, Heero would just self-detonate and take Kira with him...but knowing Heero he miracoulsy (sp?) survives like he always does... :oh
I don't think even Heero can survive a nuclear explosion. =\

oh and one more little comment to everyone who says Freedom is more agile and fast...that depends on the pilot's skills and experience IMO. im not trying to say Freedom is a bad Gundam or anything but give it to another pilot and see if its still as fast as it is =/
The poll says Heero and Kira with their respective Gundams though =\

[xeleron]

Wing is a better G due to the zero system. It transmits techtical data directly to the brain, which allows faster reaction since it predicts the enemie's next move. <= allow wing to beat freedom in agility.. Actually, any gundam with the zero system will win. It is like making the pilot a newtype.

[Jack Bauer]

Wing is a better G due to the zero system. It transmits techtical data directly to the brain, which allows faster reaction since it predicts the enemie's next move. <= allow wing to beat freedom in agility.. Actually, any gundam with the zero system will win. It is like making the pilot a newtype.

Yes but since Kira is a Coordinator, he should be able to calculate Heero's next attack and find a way to beat him since newtype brains think twice as faster as normal ones i think. Also I think Freedom and WZ have almost the same speed and firepower so it would depend, but if it was WZ Custom... Freedom better get the hell outta there.

*Thanks for the correction Mindless*

[Mindless]

A bit wrong there double-time: Kira is a Coordinator, not a Newtype. :P

Also I wanted to ask, why should Kira flee from the Wing Zero Custom? The WZC just has thoes angel'ish wings attached to it's back, nothing else.

A thing I didn't think about in my previous post was the Zero-system that is installed in the Wing Zero. If Heero is using that, Kira would have a hard time, but in the end, I think he would still win.

[Chillin]

Pure piloting ability even with Zero System it looks like Kira is the better pilot. The Freedom is more agile, fast, and better armed that the Zero. Kira/Freedom looks to have this one in the bag to me

[dspr8_rugged]

Actually, when I started this topic, I was undecided myself.

After thinking about it quite well, I guess I'm for Wing Zero, despite the fact I really liked Freedom ever since it came out. :D

Though Kira has the SEED Mode, he can pilot Freedom so fast that he can easily dodge Wing Zero's attacks. But he has less of a killer instinct, so his aim is to disable Wing Zero and not kill Heero in the process.

Heero has the Zero System in Wing Zero which greatly affects his battle performance, removing traces of doubt and fear in his mind, so that he can kill Kira with ease. He can pilot also as fast as Kira, but he won't be able to use the full charged Twin Buster Cannons unless Kira stands still, which isn't likely to happen. But of course, I doubt Heero will not rely much on it.

That's what I think.

[zaga]

If Heero self destructs Kira would probably escape *Kira and Athuran battle* and get a new gundam :p

I think it would be a draw, but i choose Kira cuz he actually uses his head more, but Heero uses a machine*Zero System* to enhance his powers, so if they both changed their gundams into a plain old zaku's I think Kira would Win

[Chopstickx]

If Heero self destructs Kira would probably escape *Kira and Athuran battle* and get a new gundam :p
Kira didnt escape that battle completely by himself...it was revealed how he was saved in the GS Ashstray manga :oh

[Chillin]

The only option Heero would have is to go at it with Freedom close range, which is suicide being that Freedom is more agile (not by much if this is Wing Zero Custom) and close combat seems to be Kira's strong point.

[Hansel]

I would say that Heero would win simply because he doesn't really give two shits if he kills somebody. Not to mention his armour is much more resilliant than that on Freedom.
However, I think that Freedom would still give WZC a run for it's money because of the whole agility thing.

[TDW]

Wing Zero is powerful, but I believe also that Freedom can have basically the same amount of strength, plus I believe that Freedom has more added speed then Zero, making it more likely to dodge the shots. Which is also attributed to better animation of course, but either way I believe that Freedom would be able to take on Wing Zero, maybe not easily since they are very good gundams controlled by very skilled people. You can never rule anything out.

[xeleron]

Kira didnt escape that battle completely by himself...it was revealed how he was saved in the GS Ashstray manga :oh

How did he escape???

About Kira being a better pilot than Heero if both uses zakus, I really don't know about that. I remember in GW that Zechs analyzed heero's battle in his wing gundam. He said his battle skill/movement was unhuman or something to that respect. Wing Zero is also pretty good against close ranged combat, considering he defeated epyon (which is close ranged based with a zero system) Only time I would say Kira is better than Heero, is when he is in seed mode = zero mode for heero. But then, not many ppl can use the zero system, just as not many ppl have the seed mode..

so I say is a tide.

[shadowtyphoon23]

I voted for Kira. Why?

Well, he is as stated, an ultimate beeing, the perfect human, the strongest coordinator. But he wouldn't win just because of that. Seeing Heero in Wing Zero in Endless Waltz against Wu Fei kinda made me loose faith in Heero. He looked so weak, wonder if he even put up a fight? Anyway, Heero ended up with his gundam totaly scrapped at the end, while Kira managed to keep his at least a bit intact. (An arm and a leg gone if im not mistaken)

Anyway, if we take the Wing Zero from Wing then (as you said I should). I suppose Kira would win too. Wing Zero has many times more firepower than Freedom but I think Freedom is alot more agile and fast compared to Wing Zero. So I say Kira would be standing at the end.
heero wasnt even fighting wu fei. he was trying to stop him from making a mistake. so that cant even be considered a fight. he would have owned wu fei's ass.

[Mindless]

I know he was trying to stop Wu Fei without a fight but it didn't work so well since Wu Fei used his beam staff against him. And then Heero had to defend himself with his beam saber.

If you don't call defending to fight, I don't understand. All forms of combat, regardless of the manner (defending, attacking etc.), is to fight.

But it's true what you say, Heero would have whooped Wu Fei's butt if he had wanted to, but he didn't.

[Grimlock]

Freedom will whipe the floor with Wing Zero. Hands down.

[SiL3nT]

The wing zero on the basis of the pilots carelessness for life and the Z.E.R.O system.

[Mu Dada]

*sigh..i love hero..but i kinda feel like kira would win =( (meh..ill vote for heero) =P

[dspr8_rugged]

So far, the battle's been a little close - 15-11, Freedom leading.

I just want to say that I was quite annoyed on the responses of the thread where I got this topic. Just look at some of the "intelligent" answers I found:

never got into gundam..

its too long..too annoying... and well.. too gay for that matter
Well, why bother answer?

Well... I have nothing against the SEED...

But...

It's Herro Yuy and the Wing Zero all the way baby!

But that's just me. ^^ Rock on GW! \m/(^-^)\m/
Well, I guess this person has only seen Wing.

Can Freedom destroy a colony with one shot uuuhhhhh NO! Can Wing Zero YES so when it comes to fire power Zero wins hands down.
I would like to tell him - "Wing Zero's capability to destroy a colony in one shot doesn't justify its advantage over Freedom. Freedom won't even give Wing Zero a chance to fire a full-charged Buster Rifle shot."

-----
No, I don't have a grudge for this people. It somewhat annoys me though, I don't know why. But then again, every one has his or her own opinion regarding this matter, however they say it. Of course, a little justification would help. :)

Though, I'm not saying my opinion is the best either. :)

[Wren]

think of it this way; kira vs. rau le curuze he fought to kill evne though he doesnt like to--- plus the piloting ability, and also the ludicrous power they gave that Gundam in SEED... Wing Zero's main points are its Zero system, its Double Buster rifle and basically it can fight for as logn as it wants (jst like FREEDOM), but its buster rifle isnt made for this type of combat and he woudlnt really get a chance to use it. so its down to Zero system vs. Kira, where id have to say Kira would win simply because they made him so damn good. and when he goes SEED mode im sure he can take Heero in Zero system, as he starts off is a coordinator (which is basiclly like a watered down nu-type) and to top it off is the so called "ultimate coordinator" or watever they call it... bascially Kira has too much going for him despite his "i dont want to kill" mentality and he ends up doing so quite often anyway. and no im not a Kira fanboy (or heero for that matter) just givin my 2 cents :P

PS; and if you want to talk about piloting ability how often was Kira fighting aganist overwhelming odds? yes Heero was as well, but his odds weren every time 4 Gundams, or 3 Gundams, Plus the assorting GM suits. Heero at most has fougt vs. either a buncha GM suits or Zechs n such at once and was havin quite the hard time against zechs and never really beat him (two on one zechs still kinda pulled out on top anyway...). so id have to say that Kira wins in that department once again, but its kinda ridiculous as to how good they made Kira; and the power they gave the frickin Gundams in SEED---no real reason to build cap ships id say if one GM mobile suit can take it out....

[Donkey Show]

I don't think a lot of people add the fact that Wing Gundam Zero was made out of Gundanium alloy, which is damn near invulnerable to a lot of crap. Second, that alloy makes the mobile suit really light in comparison to Freedom, which weighed about 71 Metric tons versus WGZ's 30 some odd tons. Combine the smaller size of the Mobile Suit and you have a versatile killing machine that Freedom, with all it's railguns and stuff, wouldn't have a chance hitting due to it's sheer manuverability, and not to mention Gundanium's nigh-invulnerability.

WGZ wins. (And I hate Wing Gundam) :amuse

[spikey]

I don't think a lot of people add the fact that Wing Gundam Zero was made out of Gundanium alloy, which is damn near invulnerable to a lot of crap. Second, that alloy makes the mobile suit really light in comparison to Freedom, which weighed about 71 Metric tons versus WGZ's 30 some odd tons. Combine the smaller size of the Mobile Suit and you have a versatile killing machine that Freedom, with all it's railguns and stuff, wouldn't have a chance hitting due to it's sheer manuverability, and not to mention Gundanium's nigh-invulnerability.

WGZ wins. (And I hate Wing Gundam) :amuse

well a couple of things first i think they were being more real with the size and weight of mobile suits in SEED i mean 30 tons for something of its massive size? not to mention its whole system that it carries.

kira would rape heero. why? first freedom can fire at ur ass while moving. so while hero is charging is uber powerful cannon kira is gonna blow the crap out of him. also kira can hit any position on a mobile suit to the dot. so he can blow away Wings buster rifle like nothing. and think about METEOR freedom against wing zero custom. i mean yea Wing has firepower and lots of it but u guys are underestimating kira's weapons. oh yea nuclear battery isnt ever gonna run out. and in HiMAT mode heero is screwed hands down

[Baka-Sama]

This match is a really hard decision. But Kira has to be the winner. i've seen, and finished, both seris and Kra would have won. Heero is a very skilled pilot and can keeps its cool but when it really gets out of hand he goes balistic in to Zero Mode. His gundam wing custom also has a very great defensive mechanism: His wings (gundam WING. get it? lol corny yes i know xD) Wing Zero also has very impressive fire power but if u think about it he only has his beam rifle and his Valcun gun's as his long range weapons and his beam saber as his close-range weapon. but with all the fire power, think about it: Will It actually Hit Kira? he would be better if he had a normal beam rifle like Freedom's.

Kira on the other hand also has great piloting skill's and he's THEE ultimate coordinator. His Freedon gundam is very agile and the fire power isnt as strong as Wing Zero's twin beam rifles,but it has a WAY better chance of hitting his opponents. when it comes to long range its hands down Kira. But when it's close range its really debatable to see who will win. caz both Wing Zero Custom and Freedom haf great are very strong nd it would be a long and bloody battle if Freedom and Wing Zero Custom were to duke it out close range it would be a very close battle. but with Kira's expert piloting skills, SEED ability, and his Freedoms Nucler power,Kira would take the win but also suffer some major injuries from fighting Wing Zero

[NaraShikamaru]

Err heero has much more experience in a Gundam i would say and he is one of my other fav gundam fights..but Kira is also a hard match-up for heero...but IMO Heero would kick his ass

[Hayate]

If its just the gundams, then Wing Zero is the superior machine due to the Zero-System and not many could withstand the twin buster rifle. Freedom has firepower too, but Wing Zero is superior.

[NaraShikamaru]

Exactly! Wing zero is one of a kind... Im not saying its him just cos he is also one of my fav gundam fighters im saying it based on how they would preform and gundam power

[Hayate]

Yeah I guess what makes Heero a better pilot would be the fact that he has the killing intent, Kira would likely try to disable his Gundam and that would be his downfall. Kira does have SEED mode, but I think Zero system balances that out.

[NaraShikamaru]

I now declair this topic pwned by Hayate XD Lol are me and u the only people posting in the gundam topics right now XD

[Hayate]

Yeah its slow right now, the other guys must be sleeping haha. :p

Although reading through the topic made me think about matchups between other main characters throughout the gundams. Like Amuro would have the worst time as his Gundam was crappy compared to the rest even though he was an uber Newtype.

[NaraShikamaru]

Yeah... Im a huge gundam fan since i seen wing..and then when i seen GSD i was like .. OMG lol and now i get all the episodes and im crazy about it XD..anyway we should prob stop spammin this topic XD

[Baka-Sama]

dude. of course wing zero is better and his fire power is superior,but think about it. how long does it take wing zero to fire his twin beam rifle's? a long time, and do u think kira is gonna just stand there and be hit? he'll use that time to attack wing zero.

[lunamaria-chan]

Excellent point.. Kira wont be standing still against Wingzero... He has an Evidently Faster Suit...(See Ep. 23) Which can Take on multiple mobile suits including gundams..
If we would compare how fast freedom and wingzero could take on multiple suits... freedom only wipes the floor with countless grunts... he's unstoppable during ep 23.... even if he has no intent to kill... another fact is that kira is slowly developing a newtype-like ability... which if proven, will give kira a clear edge over heero's zero system....

And about the colony-destroying thing wingzero does:
it's just a mere illussion that the zero system does to the pilot....
re-watch all the episodes a random Gundam pilot, piloting the Wing Zero... They were actually given a message by Wingzero that if they fight longer.... they will bring more sorrow to the people...

If it is true that he wingzero can blast down a colony, then why can't it blast down a bit of space junk from the battleship libra?

and given that libra is as small as half a plant, which is smaller than an after colony, colony.. explain....

Firepower is at question here:
wing zero's twin buster rifle has only three shots... kira's cannon fires costantly and if he decided... it will not halt... and even METEOR has more Firepower than The Twin Buster....

Maneuverability: Wing Zero is Fast but not as fast as freedom is.... even not as agile... Freedom's HiMAT is a + because even under the earth's gravity, Freedom is a very Agile and fast suit enabling it to sneak up on the minerva... it also has proven that HiMAT is the driving force of Freedom...

Endurance:We all know what the nuclear fission reactor+Neutron jammer canceller does... Freedom has the endurance to run... Wing Zero has its limitations on power... it has only the TBR and shoulder gatlings...Wing zero has never encountered a multi-purpose gundam it was always up against epyon... Epyon was restricted only to short range... Freedom is not Epyon which it can outgun... Freedom isn't your blind ass mobile suit with a horrible aim.... we all know what happened to shinn,stellar, auel and Heine.... Could Heero do that to Duo, Trowa, Wu-fei, Quatre and Zechs... when they're up against each other... kira could've done that to savior as well...

And another fact.... If heero was good, he would've beat Zechs on Heavy arms... Kira defeated Andrew on Strike ... and defended AA against FOUR GUNDAMS and mobile suits... 24/7.... Heero Started off as a failure... He sunk wing Gundam against a leo.... At least Kira owned Miguel and was on par with athrun without military training.... What more if Kira was already trained.... like in destiny.... before destiny Kira had to fight a newtype in Creuset... and Survived.... Heero had not even killed his final adversary..... In fact Heero never won against another central character... and he has no sense of direction on where to go... in endless waltz...Heero did nothing but shit... the only accomplishment was open up brussell's defenses.... if Freedom was in EW... 250 mobile suits are wasted..... without one pilot wasted....
He did'nt even do shit to wu-fei... If Kira was in EW.... We would all see an Armless, Defenseless Shenlong "Nataku" Custom.......

[hackerman98]

I think Wing in Endless Walts will definitely beat up Freedom.I think it's more agile than the series version.
Seeing this is a fight between the series ver. and freedom,I say freedom wins.
But then again,how about a fight between nu-freedom and Wing Endless Waltz
A fight between two upgrade?

[O-ushi]

Ive looked at the votes and Kira/Freedom seems to be owning Heer/Wing Zero. I didnt vote cause I only saw the first Ep of Wing which doesnt give Heero a pretty picture.

A lot of people said Kira would win because he is a better pilot. Would Kira still beat Heero if Kira was the pilot of Wing Zero and Heero the Pilot of Freedom?

[Chopstickx]

A lot of people said Kira would win because he is a better pilot. Would Kira still beat Heero if Kira was the pilot of Wing Zero and Heero the Pilot of Freedom?
hmm...thats a good question, but we dunno how well Kira would do with the Zero System.

[lunamaria-chan]

Heero failed in episode ONE of Gundam W......

And mind you.... The custom versions are just Hajime Katoki Redesigns of the same thing.....

Wingzero Custom is the same Wingzero from the series....

Watch Endless Waltz again..... NOTE THE BEGINNING

Why is "Wingzero Custom" Shooting down the same space junk that Wing Zero "TV" blew up.... unless there are two libras???

Wing Zero is the most overrated Gundam....
Just Because it has that ubber cannon.... Dual X had the better firepower....
Just Because it has the Zero system..... Haven't you watched ep. 23 of SEED Destiny..... He's Beginning to show newtype traits. If he keeps developing his piloting skill.... He's a walking ZERO SYSTEM now....

Just because Heero has killed many.... Heero for your information in endless waltz has somewhat doubt in himself.... He's like Kira in reverse.... Mind Endless Waltz.... He actually angsts in EW.... Too late.... too late to save his overrated status....
Kira on the other hand has fully developed into a very good pilot rather than to have him a n uber gundam which has PLOTHOLE written on it.... at least when freedom appears its not just a way to make people in awe.... it also affects the plot.... and for the record... how many... main characters have heero beaten with tactics... at least kira has learned from the last war... and is now a wiser kira than he was in seed.... Heero took him from his birth to Endless Waltz to see the truth about war.... SOME PERFECT SOLDIER????
and another question... how many people did heero truly defeat???
and if pwn tally is concerned....
Main plot character/Main Enemy: 1000000 pts.
Faceless Grunts: 100 pts.
Kira: 6 main plot characters.... (Kluuze, Nichol, Shinn, Auel, Stellar, and Heine)+ faceless Grunts
Heero: 1 main plot Character (Zechs)+ Faceless Grunts

Faceless Grunt Accuracy....
Freedom: equivalent to clearscreen/ cls(DOS)/clear(Linux)
Wing Zero: concentrated power.... 5 MS max

[Ha-ri]

Herro is the better piolt. Wind is better in close comabat and the freedom is better with further laser fights. Heero almost never heitaes while kira starts crying when he kills one person.

[ISHIDA_AKIRA]

Who will win in the Gundam Battle between Freedom and Wing Zero (note: the series version, not that crazy looking Wing Zero Custom in Endless Waltz...)

TAKE NOTE OF^^^VERRRRRY WELL...... it says "NO WINGZERO CUSTOM"

and would it matter if WZC was to fight freedom? according to research, WZC has the same statistics as WZ.... hell, the word "custom" after the names means DECORATION and not UPGRADE... and NO, Wingzero and the rest of the gundams did not get upgraded after the AC195 xmas eve.... wtf??? UPGRADE THEN MELT IN SUN???

I voted freedom... because i wanted to vote freedom... Why?

After seeing ep.23 of GSD wherein he STRIPPED everyone of their pride...

And what's with the Zerosystem crap??? Kira is a Newtype in the making AND your friendly neighborhood ultimate coordinator... In short, HE IS THE ZERO SYSTEM...

Okay, give props to the PERFECT soldier who:

1. Failed his first mission
2. Killed innocent civilians including the important people who could've ended the war
3. Never defeated/killed named people, only nameless, faceless grunts
4. Had The wingzero scratched in the ending....
5. Had a lousy lovelife...

Hkm... okay, some PERFECT guy...

What's with his past??? when he killed the girl and puppy??? it happened way before the start of G WING yet we see at ep.2, he whispers at a princess "I'll DESTROY YOU" then he uses the girl puppy excuse to be a wimp??? O COME ON... Since when did he atoned??

[Ha-ri]

Wingzero Custom is the same Wingzero from the series....

It has better wings, plus in the movie they are almost live-ly.

[lunamaria-chan]

Herro is the better piolt. Wind is better in close comabat and the freedom is better with further laser fights. Heero almost never heitaes while kira starts crying when he kills one person.
Have you been watching Gundam SEED Destiny??

KIRA IS A CHANGED PERSON.......Wing is better in close combat???
WTF... Seeing Ep 23.... of GSD.... Heero doesn't even stand a chance.... against Kira's Hi-MAT antics....

HAVE YOU WATCHED ENDLESS WALTZ.... this arguement about Heero is not hesitating while Kira is the other way around if you look into Gundam wing- Endless Waltz and Gundam SEED-Gundam SEED Destiny intervals....

Heero even wimped out against Shenlong "Nataku"
excused: NO ( If he doesn't hesitate, why would Heero suddenly do that)

[NejiHinata]

It has better wings, plus in the movie they are almost live-ly.

And the movie wings suck in practicallity. Sure, they look awesome. But suck in having a point to being like that.

[Ha-ri]

Whos Nataku again? I'm bad with names.

[ISHIDA_AKIRA]

Whos Nataku again? I'm bad with names.
that stretch-arm gundam.... by Chang Wu-Fei...

[Chillin]

TAKE NOTE OF^^^VERRRRRY WELL...... it says "NO WINGZERO CUSTOM"

and would it matter if WZC was to fight freedom? according to research, WZC has the same statistics as WZ.... hell, the word "custom" after the names means DECORATION and not UPGRADE... and NO, Wingzero and the rest of the gundams did not get upgraded after the AC195 xmas eve.... wtf??? UPGRADE THEN MELT IN SUN???

Damn I completely forgot that they were ALWAYS supposed to look like that according to the Endless Waltz OVA.

[ISHIDA_AKIRA]

Damn I completely forgot that they were ALWAYS supposed to look like that according to the Endless Waltz OVA.

Bingo... That was my point... cause others think it was an upgrade...

[FireEel]

Have you been watching Gundam SEED Destiny??

KIRA IS A CHANGED PERSON.......Wing is better in close combat???
WTF... Seeing Ep 23.... of GSD.... Heero doesn't even stand a chance.... against Kira's Hi-MAT antics....

HAVE YOU WATCHED ENDLESS WALTZ.... this arguement about Heero is not hesitating while Kira is the other way around if you look into Gundam wing- Endless Waltz and Gundam SEED-Gundam SEED Destiny intervals....

Heero even wimped out against Shenlong "Nataku"
excused: NO ( If he doesn't hesitate, why would Heero suddenly do that)

Erm......mate, are you watching your shows right? Or are you THAT biased against Gundam W?

Sure, Kira may have owned in ep 23, but then we think about it. He could have destroyed the other gundams, but he DIDN'T! What would happen if Freedom damages Zero's legs or boosters? Zero just keeps on coming, Heero simply don't give a damn. Meanwhile, Heero also doesn't give a damn to whether Kira survives or not. He is the perfect soldier, a mean killing-machine who destroys life without hesitation in his Zero.

In terms of agility, I give it to Freedom. I would admit, Freedom does look awfully good when moving about, but Freedom only leads by a little, as Zero is no pushover in terms of speed either. We look at Tallgeese, which is fast enough to KILL its own pilot as well as land Zechs in the hospital at full speed. Zero is even faster than Tallgeese, God, that's fast.

In terms of raw power, I give it a draw. Yeah, Freedom's four cannons and beam rifle is indeed useful and quick-to-fire. They have a pretty good chance of hitting another gundam, but then it is Zero we are talking about, as well as Heero's piloting skills. What's more, Zero's twin buster rifles can also function as quick-firing beam rifles. Look at the earlier ep when a random ace pilot takes over the Zero. He goes rampagn and kills everyone else, look at how he fires his twin buster rifle. He doesn't do those big charged shots, he does small well-aimed shots at the other Taurus. Also, the twin buster rifle may be easily dodged, but they have huge area-of-effect, and take about a second or less to be fully charged and fired. Without Gundarium alloy, Freedom may dodge the shot, but the immense heat from the passing beam alone is enough to do slight damage to Freedom.

In terms of energy, I give it a draw too. Freedom is back-up by nuclear power, but Zero does not seem to have a limit to firing the buster shots. For those who are saying Zero only has 3 shots, please understand that limit is only for Wing, Zero can basically fire countless number of times.

In terms of short range, I give it another draw. There is simply no evidence to show whether Freedom is indeed better than Zero at close range or not. Both use light sabers similarly, even though Kira can use dual light saber, he always chooses to use only one end. Meanwhile, gundams in GW are near invincible, and even when slashed by a light saber MULTIPLE times, they are not destroyed instantly, unlike a normal gundam in GS which is slashed apart by a good strike.

In terms of killing intent, I totally give it to Heero/Wing Zero. Look, Heero really doesn't care if he makes Lacus and everyone else cry for Kira or not. He doesn't care for other lifes when he is in his Zero. Meanwhile, Kira thinks about the other pilots, and he tries his best simply not to kill anyone. This is his mighty downfall.

In terms of skills, I give it a slight victory to Heero. While Zero System = Seed, Heero does have his years of training as well as killing intent to back him up. He wasn't trained out to be the perfect soldier for nothing. For those of you who pointed out that Heero lost to a Leo, please understand the Leo was piloted by Zechs, who was almost Heero's equal and Heero seriously underestimated the Leo.

All in all, Freedom is awesome, but Zero simply wins by a slight margin. I love both gundams, both pilots, and both series, but Zero simply is too strong.

[lunamaria-chan]

Where did you get the assumption that Heero never doubted.....
and to fall against Zech's Leo due to underestimating it is not a good excuse of any pilot.... if in real life... imagine a MiG-21 pilot underestimated by a F-15E pilot... chances are.... the F-15E gets shot down....

And since when did someone who fails his missions become the perfect soldier:
(He killed the supposed people out to help out the movement to peace... remember the blimp??)
(They were trapped which led to heero self-destructing Wing Gundam,again blame his arrogance)

Do you think Heero has the piloting skill advantage.... He never piloted against something like providence.... nor did he fight other gundams other than the epyon or tallgeese.... and he even was shown to be with equal footing with nataku...


Kira did pilot against his will in SEED... but right now in destiny he's a changed man, no longer contemplating about losses... he now looks more to the future.....

and what about heero's killer instinct.... how stupid that i think you never watched Endless Waltz.... because you did see what happened to him.... you seem to forgot what Heero was fighting for.... you've seem to forget that Heero told Wu-fei:
"How many times will i have to kill that Girl and that puppy?"
and another one:
"I've killed Mariemeia, now I don't have to kill anybody anymore...."
in other words, He has reached a point where he thinks like Kira did...

You seem to credit Heero for being a mass-murderer... YOU'RE DISCREDITTING HIS HUMANITY... Honestly... Heero's is cool but.... he's not the mass-murderer you think he is..... a human being.... not a machine who never flinched nor felt pain....

You're forgetting the fact that in Endless Waltz, all Gundam Pilots did the same thing Kira after he got Freedom.... to fight them w/o killing... Heero has his right to be a good pilot, but kira in destiny had never doubted his abilities but never underestimated anyone... in short for what heero did... kira did better...

Heero went on trained to do it, but failed and made matters worse.... Getting WingZero showed him the true path to true peace..... the same way Lacus made kira realize what has to be done in SEED....
Kira never wanted to do something....but in the end, Kira ended up accepting his Destiny.... his responsibility to wield his sword.... and protecting his ideals..... a whole lot better than realizing at the point that it was almost too late...
if Kira is weak as an angsty guy.... heero is even weaker by not going over that girl and puppy thing..... and in Destiny Kira has finally gotten over that angst....

The suits speak for themselves... Wingzero has only limited waepons... 2x beam saber... 2x buster rifles.... machine guns that will never do shit to PS armour.... the only way to damage kira is to fight him close range.....
Freedom.... has a variety of weapons and is very skilled in melee battles.... look at qhow he uses HiMaT mode... he can even fire upside down and even fly low altitude... Heero, even with WingZero's SPEED can't out maneuver Freedom....
About the wingzero's twin buster rifle.... how can Wing Zero shoot down a moving target... Also it has ALOT OF recoil... Recoil means the end if Going against Freedom.... Freedom can slice mobile suits in less than a second..... a split second recoil could prompt kira to slice wing zero....

Long-range... kira has the edge by strafing will firing.... medium range... kira has a normal rifle.... short range... kira is too fast and too maneuverable in HiMat mode.....

so it's really obvious taht Freedom is still the better suit...

[ISHIDA_AKIRA]

OK, here's the deal....

Long-Ranged combat: It would be the RECOILING TBR w/ only 3 shots up against 2 plasma cannons and 2 railguns... Freedom will wait and dodge while WZ fires until WZ runs out of shots and Freedom Multifires at WZ (RAPID SHOT, MAKES NO RECOIL), OR, will wait for the shot, Dash w/ HIMAT at freeze/charge time (Hey, TBR ofcourse has a freezetime) and before making another shot, CHECKMATE it is...

Mid-Ranged combat: It would be the beam rifle of Freedom vs WZ's Gatlings... Erhmm.... The thing Called PHASE SHIFT ARMOR exists.... he will have a VERRRRRRRRRY slim chance of even scratching freedom... and people defend it w/ the GUNDANIUM crap... even the peashooter gun of tallgeese I affected Heavyarms as we recall...

Short-Ranged(Melee) combat: This is not just a battle of SPEED, but AGILITY and DEXTERITY...Both are Dexterous and fast, But HIMAT is a big + in kira's side for AGILITY...

Special Features: Wing Zero has Zero System.... but only a select few can control....remember the pilot who tried to used it but psyched out.... freedom can be used by any zaft/EA pilot.... so freedom can extend its versatility over other pilots... Wing Zero piloted by a grunt is definately no match against a Freedom piloted by a grunt....

[FireEel]

Firstly, I am not taking into account of anything in Endless Waltz. Threadstarter said not to include Endless Waltz.

Second, twin buster rifle DOES NOT have only 3 shots.

Third, twin buster rifle CAN fire single rapid shots like Freedom's beam rifle. Please rewatch Gundam W eps, esp the earlier ones.

[lunamaria-chan]

the treadstarter said not to take into acoount the WingZero Custom.... Because, Frankly.... The WZ from the Series and the WZC are the SAME....

the endless waltz plot, or any transition between wing and EW with concern to the plot of the AC calendar are valid.... he is just stressing that telling something about WZC is utter nonesense because it's the same thing

[Baka-Sama]

i think some pplz are putting Heero instead of Kira caz they favor Gundam Wing. and they keep on putting stupid thingsy like "Wing Zero is more faster" or "Wingzero has the wings"...wtf? wings? how the hell do u compare whos better by the wings?! dumb pplz. besides if u watch episode 26 preview, the part where freedom is fighting all those zaku's, then u can tell me your opinion. also kira is getting a new gundam (WOO HOO!!) which is ................to-big-for-numbers times stronger then the orginal freedom.


also if u read the captions on the side of my avatar. it says "Out Whore That Mia-Bitch!". and that pic shows Lacus in episode 24. she looks way hotter then Mia :laugh

[dspr8_rugged]

the treadstarter said not to take into acoount the WingZero Custom.... Because, Frankly.... The WZ from the Series and the WZC are the SAME....

Well, yes. Wing Zero and Wing Zero Custom are almost the same, but I'm just in favor with the series version because I seriously hated the design of the Wing Zero Custom. Still, as I said, they're almost the same.

Though a noted difference between the two is that the Wing Zero Custom doesn't have a shield and is less-armed than Wing Zero.

And yes, please put more favor in the Gundams than the pilots themselves. Though of course, the pilots play a factor on who'll win this one. Yes, I liked Kira's character more than Heero's, but I chose Wing Zero to win this one (as stated in the previous pages).

And it's definitely not the case by saying that Wing Zero wins because Heero is cute and vice versa. That's so absurd.

Of course, if the Super Freedom will take on Wing Zero, that would be another topic... :)

[Baka-Sama]

uh huh. yep but the wing zero in endleswaltz did haf a defenses mechanism. its wings could cover the body and protect it.

[Darkdragon500]

this is hard cause Kira has SEED and Heero doesn't but hes a very skilled pilot.... well Kira got spread fire and Heero got a powerful beam rifle....hmm well i would say Kira would win because its more updated

[soso]

kira would have an easy win (I Think lol)

[Ichigo_101]

Heero my hero!!
Ya I voted for him :]

[Ha-ri]

Well Heero isn't afrad of death, he took on a mission to blow up his MS without thinking. He dosn't care for anyone(spet relina) And hes got alot more experience. I tried and exparendent with my SD Wing Zero Custon and SD Freedom and the Freedom won only cus the other model wasn't well put to gether. Anyways, if Heero took out the freedoms guns then he was an advantage cus I'v seen hiw beam sabers fights to be more expert. Now if he got "Seed" or whatever its call then idk, the odds might be in his factor, although in the final episodes of seed/wing when both suits are messed up teh Wing held up better IMO. Also Wing seem more moblie because of teh wings and then trasnform thing. Kira is a good shot, he manages to unarm alot of people's suits without killing them. But Heero's double beam-gun is also very powerful.

BTW thats mostly all my opinon...

[ssouske]

I give the victory to kira... even if heero is a trained soldier compared to our civilian kira, kira is a coordinator, not to mention that he IS the ULTIMATE coordinator. even if heero has the ZERO system behind him, kira is showing signs of developing into a newtype... which means psychic abilities+Ultimate Coordinator = one hell of a fighter... ZERO system may help heero, but IF Kira does become a newtype, will be able to beat that system to a pulp... now some people say that kira lacks the will to kill... take a close look at what he did to Raw le crussete... he drove that beamsaber/lance in the cockpit of providence... where is the lack of will to kill in there? now when it comes to gundams... ZERO will definitely be in a disadvantage whether or not it is the custom or the regular ZERO. Even if the WZC was to use the TBR, he still needs to charge about 5-10 secs before firing... not to mention that he needs to lock on the target before firing the thing... in that time span, freedom would have disarmed ZERO by the use of either the shoulder cannons, railguns, beam riffle, or beam saber. now lets go to the mid range to melee battle... i still do believe that freedom has the advantage... only wing zero's beam saber will do damage to freedom... (thats why they developed PS armor) gundarium alloy will always be vaunerable to beam saber attacks like the PSA. but the main difference is that while Gundarium alloy can deflect/withstand some projectile and laser fire, it is not totally impenatrable... small bullets from the freedom's cwis will do very minimal damage if it keeps on hitting the same part... and when it comes to laser attacks, gundarium alloy can just get hit a few times then boom... Now lets go to freedom's PSA... PS is totally impenatrable when it comes to bullets... now when it comes to lasers, thats where the shield comes in handy... i think it will be able to withstand the TBR blast... see how strike's shield protected the AA from the positron cannon... if the strike was not severely damage, mwu could have survived... somehow...

Freedom has agility and speed all thanks to the HiMAT thing... ZERO may be lighter but i still do think that freedom will outmaneuver and outgun ZERO at the same time... HiMAT allows kira to do hit and run... (not Athrun's version of "hit and run off like a scaredy cat." saviour looks cool but the way athrun used it sucked...) zero cannot possibly withstand that... (ok now im totally lost in what im saying... im all confused now... :blink )

to make the long story short, FREEDOM and Kira will DEMOLISH WZ/WZC and Heero any time... maybe Kira and Launcher strike will be the better match for ZERO... and STRIKE + IWSP +KIRA will cream ZERO and heero... that sounds very biased and hypocritic but thats the truth...

[bladerash]

I think the wing zero is a better gundam then Freedom.
The wingzero is faster. Why? because in that serie normal people wouldn't even be able to pilot it at it's max speed. Zechs puked blood when he was trying to pull the tallgeese to it's max and that other guy even died. Tallgeese was a prototype. The cheaper and safer version was the leo. The more advanced type is the Wing zero. Out of the wing zero, they build the other 5 weaker gundams.
So the wing zero is faster then Freedom because I believe there was no one puking blood in the Seed Gundams. Wing Zero owns them all in speed.

Wing Zero also have better armor because when It got hit by Ephions beam sabre, It didn't penetrate through it. In seed when the gundams got hit by beam sabres, their parts broke.

With the zero system pushing the pilot above his limit, It's invincible.

If Kira tried to pilot Wing zero, He would puked blood.
So heero pwns Kira and Wingzero pwns Freedom.
Heero + Wingzero = bye bye Freedom + Kira.

[ISHIDA_AKIRA]

Just because they're not puking blood. htey have faster speeds. Keep in Mind the The time frames. In SEED, Coordinators are Specially trained at these speeds. Anc considering that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator. He's potential is limitless. Better watch Gundam SEED Destiny 28. Kira owns Gundams like they were nothing. Don't be a retard. It's the pilot's problem why he's puking blood.Kira is a coordinator. He's accustomed to fast speeds for freedom is not only fast, it's very agile. for you to take that Freedom is better is very hard because that's every winger's problem.

[lunamaria-chan]

Well Heero isn't afrad of death, he took on a mission to blow up his MS without thinking. He dosn't care for anyone(spet relina) And hes got alot more experience. I tried and exparendent with my SD Wing Zero Custon and SD Freedom and the Freedom won only cus the other model wasn't well put to gether. Anyways, if Heero took out the freedoms guns then he was an advantage cus I'v seen hiw beam sabers fights to be more expert. Now if he got "Seed" or whatever its call then idk, the odds might be in his factor, although in the final episodes of seed/wing when both suits are messed up teh Wing held up better IMO. Also Wing seem more moblie because of teh wings and then trasnform thing. Kira is a good shot, he manages to unarm alot of people's suits without killing them. But Heero's double beam-gun is also very powerful.

BTW thats mostly all my opinon...

Alot of Experience, As i remember, Heero was in a grunt Killing trip, with no true rival. Kira has fought in a real war. Another fact: The Kira we know in SEED Destiny would do this to a fairly similar suit to Wing Zero:
http://www.imgsatellite.com/u/05/125/08/saviourpwned.gif

Saviour Gundam is more agile and faster than Wing ZERO.

Another thing. if you're thinking speed, please think of fps. and think of how freedom and wingzero are animeted. If Wingzero is faster than Freedom, then it would've been animated much more like Freedom. and Speed is not everything fast. Freedom has Agility to go with it's speed. It could fire Weapons while Upside down. A sign that Kira is no pushover, If Zechs Puked in Tallgeese, it's his problem, not Kira's. That was a +G, Kira can Handle +and - G's. Please stop bitching about acceleration and velocity when you don't know about it.

[ssouske]

Alot of Experience, As i remember, Heero was in a grunt Killing trip, with no true rival. Kira has fought in a real war. Another fact: The Kira we know in SEED Destiny would do this to a fairly similar suit to Wing Zero:
http://www.imgsatellite.com/u/05/125/08/saviourpwned.gif

Saviour Gundam is more agile and faster than Wing ZERO.

Another thing. if you're thinking speed, please think of fps. and think of how freedom and wingzero are animeted. If Wingzero is faster than Freedom, then it would've been animated much more like Freedom. and Speed is not everything fast. Freedom has Agility to go with it's speed. It could fire Weapons while Upside down. A sign that Kira is no pushover, If Zechs Puked in Tallgeese, it's his problem, not Kira's. That was a +G, Kira can Handle +and - G's. Please stop bitching about acceleration and velocity when you don't know about it.

First, i totally agree on this... i really never saw wing zero nor the custom version go flying like freedom... ok lets just compare the two gundam's speeds if they were cars... Wing Zero would be a straightline going muscle car or a drag race car and the freedom would be a Ferrari F1 car or a mazda RX-7 FD3S... on a straight road they may be equall in speed... but the ferrari or RX-7 would blow the muscle car in winding roads or ciruits because muscle cars cannot take corners in speeds where the ferrari or RX-7 go... in other words... generally MUSCLE CARS SUCK IN CORNERS... and that is same as Wing ZERO... it is not as agile as freedom... not even as agile as the original RX-78 gundam of amuro... and duh... Kira IS NOT A NORMAL HUMAN BEING... watch ur gundam series before you argue ok? Kira and the other coordinators and extendeds, of course, not puke in those speeds because of the coordinator's exeptional bodies... and because the extendeds are soooooo drugged that they'll forget to puke... :laugh this was all explained in the episode in GS when the archangel landed in the desert after re-entering the earth's atmosphere... COORDINATORS ARE SIMPLY WAY BETTER THAN NATURALS....

Second, will ya all stop saying that TBR(Twin Buster Riffle) thing... one thing is for sure... TBR can't hit FAST MOVING TARGETS... all the leos and other MS that got hit by TBR was just not trying to evade TBR... and usually ZERO would be in a stand still position while firing TBR... so he is a sitting duck while firing it... and even if there is a rapid fire mode, he'd be like kira in his very 1st battle with yzak in GS... shooting w/o making sure the shot will hit... firing like a blind man... even and even if TBR has a large area of damage, that area won't give suficient damage to Freedom. Dont tell me that im a GW hater i love WZC in SRW alpha gaiden... but there are some problems with WZC in that game... Heero usually misses enemies or bosses that are in equal/slightly higher levels. My heero in srw is usually the highest lvl pilot in my team coz i only use gundams... heero seems to have trouble in hitting some bosses that are very agile...

And lastly i really do not think that TBR is that all powerfull gun of destruction... DX's Twin Satelite Cannon will own TBR in terms of power... and i also think that Blue Frame Astray's Lohengrin Positron Cannon can also beat TBR in terms of power... its just that TBR is SOOOOO overrated becoz its always fired at mass numbers of stationary Mobile Suits that are not even trying to avoid getting hit... If we fire TBR and TSC or Lohengrin at each other (sumthing like dragonball style crap) TBR will get owned...

Im filipino so i also saw GW first... i liked it soo much back then... and i even said that the seed sucks because it was a rip off of the other gundam series... but when i saw the other series and seed... i thought that GW REALLY SUCKED... :laugh

KIRA RULES!!! especially the GSD kira... hehehe! may have gone slightly rusty but still rules....

[3rdStrike]

Well let's say that Kira and Heero are equivalent when it comes to skills.
Kira - The "Ulitimate-Coordinator" literally has the capability to do everything..
Heero - Well, if he can handle the Zero System, I don't see how he can be defeated when it comes to skills.

Now comes the Gundam...
Zero Wing... yes it has the TBR, yes it has Zero System that can predict enemie's move, yes... the commonly used self-destruct system...
but
Freedom has the Neutron Jammer Canceler, enough to own everything because know one can mess with nuclear energy. Not even your mom.

sigh... i feel so offensive today.

[ISHIDA_AKIRA]

Well Heero isn't afrad of death, he took on a mission to blow up his MS without thinking. He dosn't care for anyone(spet relina) And hes got alot more experience. I tried and exparendent with my SD Wing Zero Custon and SD Freedom and the Freedom won only cus the other model wasn't well put to gether. Anyways, if Heero took out the freedoms guns then he was an advantage cus I'v seen hiw beam sabers fights to be more expert. Now if he got "Seed" or whatever its call then idk, the odds might be in his factor, although in the final episodes of seed/wing when both suits are messed up teh Wing held up better IMO. Also Wing seem more moblie because of teh wings and then trasnform thing. Kira is a good shot, he manages to unarm alot of people's suits without killing them. But Heero's double beam-gun is also very powerful.

BTW thats mostly all my opinon...

I've got questions for you:

1.) Okay, Heero 'aint afraid of death, well, that makes Kira have the will to live, and not to die protecting his friends, right? As I've recalled in Rurouni Kenshin, the will to live and protect kept Kenshin going. That "never afraid of death" gig can cost him, real big. Isn't that right? For he will not have a reason to keep on going, as he is asking "What is it to me when I die?"

2.) Okay, Freedom got more damage than WingZero in the ending. Hey, NEWSFLASH! That doesn't prove anything. Isn't that right? Kira faced a VERY powerful suit in the ending, heck, the weapon even feared in the UC series: the DRAGOON/Funnels. Heero never fought a suit with that kind of capability, In fact, all he ever fought were friggin' grunts and a melee battle at the ending, and as I recall, the battle did NOT officially end. And as I recalled, WingZero was PWNed real good in the EW BY WU-FEI. Now, what suit is in better shape at their endings?

3.) Transformation, heh? NEVER A FACTOR. So what if it can transform? Refer to EP28 of GSD as a demonstration of what Kira can do against transforming thayngs!!!!

4.) Twin Buster Rifle: a powerful weapon, OK, I give you that. But, uhh, when will he get a clear aim? I mean It recoils, right? Watch Endless Waltz, he didn't fire rapid enough at the Brussels Palace, I mean if he could, he will right? but can't. Freedom has a multilock system, can shoot rapidly and has 5 guns- 2 Railguns, 2 Plasma cannons (there are no plasma cannons in AC), and a beam rifle. To add, Freedom, as the other people say, is not just fast, but AGILE.

[lunamaria-chan]

Well Heero isn't afrad of death, he took on a mission to blow up his MS without thinking. He dosn't care for anyone(spet relina) And hes got alot more experience. I tried and exparendent with my SD Wing Zero Custon and SD Freedom and the Freedom won only cus the other model wasn't well put to gether. Anyways, if Heero took out the freedoms guns then he was an advantage cus I'v seen hiw beam sabers fights to be more expert. Now if he got "Seed" or whatever its call then idk, the odds might be in his factor, although in the final episodes of seed/wing when both suits are messed up teh Wing held up better IMO. Also Wing seem more moblie because of teh wings and then trasnform thing. Kira is a good shot, he manages to unarm alot of people's suits without killing them. But Heero's double beam-gun is also very powerful.

BTW thats mostly all my opinon...

Being Emotionless is never an edge because it is what makes you human, It may block your weaknesses, but it may block your strength as well.
want a clear example:Kenshin and Soujirou. Kenshin has emotions., like Kira. Soujirou has hidden his emotions, like Heero did. What made Soujirou lose was never his power, he was evidently faster than Kenshin was. He lost because compared to Kenshin, who he thinks is weaker,but He has no spirit who lives in Him. His will to live is weaker than Kenshin's. Because, He is fighting not to die, and Kenshin is fighting to live.

[bladerash]

If Wingzero is faster than Freedom, then it would've been animated much more like Freedom. and Speed is not everything fast. Freedom has Agility to go with it's speed. It could fire Weapons while Upside down. A sign that Kira is no pushover, If Zechs Puked in Tallgeese, it's his problem, not Kira's. That was a +G, Kira can Handle +and - G's. Please stop bitching about acceleration and velocity when you don't know about it.
I believe the lightning Count is not a pushover either. If he puked blood in the tallgeese. I don't believe there are a lot people who can handle WingZero which is even more advance then the Tallgeese. When they were testing WingZero in space with zero G. They used an avarage pilot. Even that guy became very powerfull with Wingzero and his zero system. His reactionspeed became as fast as the mobile dolls. He thought he was invincible but eventually died.
I don't think any avarage pilot piloting Freedom could match that.
It's that Kira is very skilled, Not his Freedom. Freedom is better then almost any other mobile suit, yes. But I don't think it's Uber like the Wingzero. When Heero piloted that thing. His reactionspeed suppassed the mobile dolls by far.

[ssouske]

Mobile dolls are stupid... if kira were to go head on against them... they'd be wiped out before you can say OMG... compare the mobile doll's movement to the grunty pilots in SEED and SEED Destiny... the grunts in GS and GSD moves in the same or even better than your mobile dolls... and about that ZERO system, yes anyone can become good when you use the ZERO system... the problem is, you go insane... remember that grunt who used it? he went nuts after destroying those... only Zechs and Heero were the only ones who kept themselves sane enough to keep on using ZERO... Freedom does not have that but if you put a coordinator in there, it will perform although not as good as kira... now if you put Orb's Natural OS and AI (the one in Red Frame Astray) any natural can also perform good in the Freedom... ZERO will peroform for anyone but will make you nuts after using it... and in zero G, freedom goes even better and faster since there is no gravity... if you look closely, freedom was more agile in space compared to when he was on earth... on the other hand, Wing ZERO was never agile... it goes in straight stops and changes direction...

[lunamaria-chan]

I believe the lightning Count is not a pushover either. If he puked blood in the tallgeese. I don't believe there are a lot people who can handle WingZero which is even more advance then the Tallgeese. When they were testing WingZero in space with zero G. They used an avarage pilot. Even that guy became very powerfull with Wingzero and his zero system. His reactionspeed became as fast as the mobile dolls. He thought he was invincible but eventually died.
I don't think any avarage pilot piloting Freedom could match that.
It's that Kira is very skilled, Not his Freedom. Freedom is better then almost any other mobile suit, yes. But I don't think it's Uber like the Wingzero. When Heero piloted that thing. His reactionspeed suppassed the mobile dolls by far.

I don't Get your point. Freedom was never intended for Kira to use. He stole it Remember. So any Coordinator would've been Freedom's Pilot.Unlike WingZero which only select people can use. and another thing. Physics. When Wing Zero Accelerates, It cannot stop in a dime, When Freedom moves, It's like watching Dwayne Wade move. He can Pull up, Accelerate faster than any NBA player. Well back to the topic.

Did you know how the Harrier went into service? The Harrier should you know isn't supersonic. But it's very Maneuverable. The first time it was concieved, It clashed with the minds of people. Those people thought that speed was everything. Then the True test was in front of them. The Argentinian conflict was a proof that Speed is nothing without Agility. As "superior" aircraft were up against the slower harrier, The harrier's Maneuverability took over. Now the tables were turned and now The harrier is the main reason the US Marines and Royal Air Force are Dominant in Sieges.

You talk about reaction time? Re-watch Gundam SEED ep. 50. Kira's (as well as Mwu's) reaction times are so fast that he evades Providence's DRAGOON Those are twelve with 2 or 3 beam weapons Shooting at Him+ Rau Taking It in a Melee Battle.

Mobile Dolls= Easy Targets for Kira, Because There are no pilots, Kira will now be permitted to shoot even the cockpit.

What's the Idea of Having them anyway, they still aim like Stormtroopers™.

[Mindless]

I just want to say this: Heero was never intended to use the Wing Zero either. Quatre was the one who built it, he was the one who was supposed to use it. :P

[xHeavyArmsx]

Zero anyday. Heero is the ulitmate human, and with the Wing system, nothing can beat him, and i think that Kira is kinda weak, especially personality wise. The animation doesnt help Kira's cause.

/Edit. Reffering to the point that his Buster Rifle cannot hit fast moving targets, Heero and the Zero are still masters at Beam Sabre based combat. Look at the fight he has with Zechs in episode 48/49, nearly all of that is based around the Beam Sabre.

/Edit 2. HEERO WAS NOT TRYING AGAINST WU-FEI!

[xeleron]

Ya, only hero can pilot the wing zero while keeping his sanity. His agility and reaction speed is many times greater than the mobile doll system, as this was tested when they hook up the zero system on to herro.

As for mobile dolls being a easy targets for Kira... We shouldn't really underestimate the power of mobile dolls, as it crushed the first 5 gundams before they were upgraded. The reason they were able to kill the mobile dolls so easily, was cause their upgraded gundams were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then mobile dolls.. not because of pilots skills.

[xHeavyArmsx]

Ok, back to the point on Wu-Fei and Heero. Honestly, if you read the manga, it shows WHY Heero didnt fight. Even in the movie, all he did was defend himself, he doesnt make a move to attack the Nataku (If my memory serves me correctly), and in the end gives up because its another 'pointless battle.'

Also, the shows are completly different. In general, the Gundam power level in Seed is alot greater anyway, and the variety of weapons and fighting styles is too. If it came down to a clean fight, i still think that Heero would win.

And earlier in the movie, when Heero fights him in a Leo, he puts up a very good fight. I dont know any other charcter that could do so well against a fully modded Gundam, with such sheer power as Nataku. His piloting skills are obviously very formidable.

[ssouske]

Ok, back to the point on Wu-Fei and Heero. Honestly, if you read the manga, it shows WHY Heero didnt fight. Even in the movie, all he did was defend himself, he doesnt make a move to attack the Nataku (If my memory serves me correctly), and in the end gives up because its another 'pointless battle.'

Also, the shows are completly different. In general, the Gundam power level in Seed is alot greater anyway, and the variety of weapons and fighting styles is too. If it came down to a clean fight, i still think that Heero would win.

And earlier in the movie, when Heero fights him in a Leo, he puts up a very good fight. I dont know any other charcter that could do so well against a fully modded Gundam, with such sheer power as Nataku. His piloting skills are obviously very formidable.

i just want to quote you on the thing that you said about SEED's power edge over Wing... Then how is heero going to win against kira if kira is all more powerfull in a clean fight? i can't understand how a more powerful person can loose against a weaker competitor... i'll agree with you that heero fought wufei in a leo but he really never won against it... and what is the difference of fighting and defending? when you defend, you fight. when you fight, you also defend your self... ok if you want a clean fight, lets just say that we use a leo space for heero and a GiN for kira... both are in space... i would still think that kira will win because of his seed mode... heero will loose because he does not have ZERO system on the leo... even if kira decided to take the leo and heero takes the GiN... kira can still beat him... (SEED mode is everything...)

[xHeavyArmsx]

i just want to quote you on the thing that you said about SEED's power edge over Wing... Then how is heero going to win against kira if kira is all more powerfull in a clean fight? i can't understand how a more powerful person can loose against a weaker competitor... i'll agree with you that heero fought wufei in a leo but he really never won against it... and what is the difference of fighting and defending? when you defend, you fight. when you fight, you also defend your self... ok if you want a clean fight, lets just say that we use a leo space for heero and a GiN for kira... both are in space... i would still think that kira will win because of his seed mode... heero will loose because he does not have ZERO system on the leo... even if kira decided to take the leo and heero takes the GiN... kira can still beat him... (SEED mode is everything...)

I meant that in Gundam Wing, there are very few uber powerful Gundams, i would limit them to only the Epyon and WingZero, but Seed has more. I meant in general relation to the average power of a gundam in the series. I do still think that Heero would win though, especially in his own suit. You say that Kira is the ultimate coordinater, but Heero is the ultimate human also. I think it would be quit even, but my bet would be on Heero and WingZero.

[lunamaria-chan]

Zero anyday. Heero is the ulitmate human, and with the Wing system, nothing can beat him, and i think that Kira is kinda weak, especially personality wise. The animation doesnt help Kira's cause.

/Edit. Reffering to the point that his Buster Rifle cannot hit fast moving targets, Heero and the Zero are still masters at Beam Sabre based combat. Look at the fight he has with Zechs in episode 48/49, nearly all of that is based around the Beam Sabre.

/Edit 2. HEERO WAS NOT TRYING AGAINST WU-FEI!
Heero is not trying against wu-fei. The same way that Kira wasn't even trying against Yzak when he first used Freedom.

Heero, is quoted the most overrated pilot becuase of you wingers constantly defennding him with the Zero system.

"Zero never gave me an Answer." -Heero Yuuy

Heero is good at beam sabres but, not as good as Hiten Mitsurugi-Kira. I mean look at just how he takes care of Savior, Chaos, Gaia, Impulse, Providence, and soon Destroy.

You really think heero is the ultimate Human? Why did he lose against Wu-Fei? Don't you think that this situation with wu-fei was the same situation Kira had with Athrun in ep 28? Heero could've disabled Wu-fei and make him think.

To Wingers: Kira has now reached something Heero did not. He is in control of what he does. Which Heero does not do. He just gives himself to a machine. No maybe someone will succeed kira. but that time is not now.

[ssouske]

good point luna-chan...

eniweiz... for me, wing has its own strong points... but those are not enough to beat kira and freedom... I think Yzak+Duel/ZAKU Phantom Slash would be an even match for heero and zero... hell, i think Yzak may be able to thrash heero, if Yzak was really in the mood... hehehe! :laugh

[ISHIDA_AKIRA]

good point luna-chan...

eniweiz... for me, wing has its own strong points... but those are not enough to beat kira and freedom... I think Yzak+Duel/ZAKU Phantom Slash would be an even match for heero and zero... hell, i think Yzak may be able to thrash heero, if Yzak was really in the mood... hehehe! :laugh

Yzak doesn't need ZERO system to be insane.... He IS insane!!!! I also think so... to support this idea:

*TBR=Useless against Slash Zaku Phantom, because it CAN dodge.
*Melee Combat= THIS IS YZAK TERRITORY!!!! and duh, that's why they call it SLASH

You will have ZERO con carne for DINNER!!!

[xHeavyArmsx]

Heero is not trying against wu-fei. The same way that Kira wasn't even trying against Yzak when he first used Freedom.

Heero, is quoted the most overrated pilot becuase of you wingers constantly defennding him with the Zero system.



Heero is good at beam sabres but, not as good as Hiten Mitsurugi-Kira. I mean look at just how he takes care of Savior, Chaos, Gaia, Impulse, Providence, and soon Destroy.

You really think heero is the ultimate Human? Why did he lose against Wu-Fei? Don't you think that this situation with wu-fei was the same situation Kira had with Athrun in ep 28? Heero could've disabled Wu-fei and make him think.

To Wingers: Kira has now reached something Heero did not. He is in control of what he does. Which Heero does not do. He just gives himself to a machine. No maybe someone will succeed kira. but that time is not now.

You make some good points. And yes, i am a Winger, but i can admit that the Zero system has its flaws, and that Heero shouldnt be dependent apon it to win. I think that although Heero has trouble making decisions for himself, he is still the ultimate solider, which is shown during the first few episodes of Wing.

As this is just going to desolve into a flame fest, i think we should leave it here. Good argument though, i think alot of valid points were made. I look forward to discussing similar topics in futre.

:Gaaraball

[ssouske]

You make some good points. And yes, i am a Winger, but i can admit that the Zero system has its flaws, and that Heero shouldnt be dependent apon it to win. I think that although Heero has trouble making decisions for himself, he is still the ultimate solider, which is shown during the first few episodes of Wing.

As this is just going to desolve into a flame fest, i think we should leave it here. Good argument though, i think alot of valid points were made. I look forward to discussing similar topics in futre.

:Gaaraball

You have one minor flaw in your argument though... even if you do say that Heero is the ultimate soldier, he is nothing more but a regular human... he is not a newtype and not even a coordinator...

I remember reading sumthing in the net that... most coordinators are born as ultimate soldiers... and kira is the ultimate coordinator... so kira owns everbody else... same thing as newtypes... in UC they prety much owned every other non-newtype pilots... :)

[Gun-damn]

aside from the gundams themselves, u gotta look at the personality of each pilot

Kira: Wasnt trained, self taught abilities. His emotions are human, to the point where he doesnt kill just because the other person is shooting at him, but because he is doing it for the wrong cause, and will try not to kill the enemy neway.

Heero: Trained to be the ultimate pilot. Obvisouly has had emotion training, which in battle serves well. While fighting ive never seen heero lose control as in hes scared to hit the opponent, resulting in temporarly freezing at the controls. He's always been cool calm and collected in battle, taking out the enemy with no hesitation.

If u pitted the ulimate soldier against a person who trained himself for 2 years in a fight, obvisouly the soldier would win hands down.

Now in mobile suit combat, without the zero system and seed mode, heero would win because he is the ultimate soldier, in all aspects, no matter who u are, u cannot win against an ultimate soldier, because he is trained to kill and nothing else.

Now with zero system and seed mode, heero would still win. Kiras seed mode only gets him to equal an ultimate soldier. The use of the zero system surpasses that. The ultimate soldier with the ultimate combat system, noway u can win.

Freedom is a better mobile suit than wing zero, u can tell from just the weapons alone. Wing zero only has 2 vulcans, 2 buster cannons and a beam saber. Freedom has 2 vulcans, 2 beam sabers, 2 rail guns, 2 mini positron beams, and a beam rifle. If heero where to fight kira and they where both using freedom, heero with the zero system and kira with seed mode, heero would win, because the zero system would allow for better sync with his mobile suit.

Well thats how i see it, its open for discussion, as i like the topic, but its hard to compare the 2, because at the time of gundam wing, wing zero or eypyon where the best suits, in seed, the strike is just as good, because its easier to create more complex gundams these days than it was 10 years ago, u gotta take that into considtration aswell.

[xHeavyArmsx]

I said something similar to that earlier Gun-damn. The Gundams in Seed are totally different to the ones in Wing, and are generally more powerful. I agree with you that if Heero was to fight Kira, and they were both in Freedom, Heero would win, but the subjective of this thread is that Heero and Kira are both in their own suits.

I think im going to leave it as a stalemate.

/Note. Even thought Kira is the 'ultimate' coordinator, that doesnt change the fact that he is a self taught soldier.

[ssouske]

You guys always forget that coordinator surpass normal/ordinary human beings... weather or not you're a trained soldier or not... once you're a coordinator, its normal that you'll own pretty much everyone... Coordinators are more superior to naturals/ordinary humans in physical and mental capabilities...

The Ultimate Coordinator theory is proven by the way kira defeated Miguel in ep 2 and 3 of G SEED... Kira had no traning whatsoever... and Miguel was one of those ace ZAFT pilots... but at that time he was yet to be assigned to ZAFT red... Kira defeated the Trained Miguel because of his capabilities as an ultimate coordinator... and please don't give me that reason that kira won because he had a gundam... Kira just re-programed strike's OS when he fought Miguel... The refinements in Strike's OS came when AA was on its way to the moon base... Kira had the disadvantage of having an OS that was written roughly and din not yet exploit the full potential of Strike... Training was not the factor here but the ULTIMATE COORDINATOR thing... and its rubish to say that naturals in seed are stupid and weak beings... Lowe Gear from GS Astray proved that even naturals can pilot mobile suits and compete against coordinators... although he had an AI support system which can be the less riskier cousin of ZERO... (actualy i like the AIs that ORB developed for natural MS.. they really are AI compared to ZERO that is only a computer that did not have a personality of its own... Orb was not able to use those AI units in Kusanagi because they accidentally left them in morgenrote base when kusanagi launched... AIs went to the Junker Guild as shown in Vol 1 of SEED Destiny astray manga) and if there was someone in wing that they can call ultimate soldier, its not heero... it has got to be trowa... he thinks and acts like a computer in battle... he fights as efficient as he can... although he had one of the worst gundams ever... it looks cool but it does eat shit when it has no more ammo... all heero din in Wing TV was say I'll kill you... and kill all things that blocked his path... all the grunts and even the guys who wanted peace... the one thing he never did was kill/defeat more than 1 named character...

[3rdStrike]

I personally think that comparing and debating whether Kira or Heero is better is sort of pointless because there is going to be Ultimate Kira fan and an Extreme Heero supporter. However, it's best to say that they level out; Kira - born with the ultimate abilities that exceeds an average human. Heero - trained to exceed the ulitmate abilities of an average human.
So it really comes down to the Gundams and let's not state the obvious shall we? ;)

[xHeavyArmsx]

Thats what i said in my post above. It is all down to the technology.

Btw, would you guys post in a Gundam Forum Community Thread?

[3rdStrike]

=D I was just restating it because people didn't really seem to get that point.

this is off topic... but.. since you asked..
I sometimes do post on a gundam forum when I really have a point to make out, but those people who partcipate are hardcore-down-to-earth gundam fans. They were crazy enough to bring out the international law and referenced it from yale university website when they discussed one epsiode regarding the fight in international waters, really insane.

[rangeofhakke]

I agree with a lot that has been said. Luna said some good stuff, specially about endless waltz. People don't see that hero was not trying to fight wu-fei, he was trying to bring him back from his disolussions. He did not want do destroy wu-fei's gundam because he wanted him to help and he wanted to show him that his new ideals were wrong. Kira was pissed at asuthrun because he was being an idiot, so wrecked him because he was not neccesary in the proccess. He was just a nuisanse. Heero was an amazing pilot before he got the Zero-System. But, when he did get the zero-system he fully intigrated with it. He did not just listen to the system, but instead worked together with it. If you notice through out the series when he got Zero it was like they had a bond. So in waltz it was the first time Zero was not speaking to him, and he did not understand why. that part was just symbolic of their relationship and how he was confused a few things and needed to go save relina. I wish this thread had Hero with his Zero custom in waltz, that way it would be his best against kira's best but o well. I still say Hero (i like hero and kira equaly, i don't think any other character will come out in another gundam series as cool as these two for me). The Zero System allows Heero to fully intigrate with the system allowing for full instant control of the suit, as was stated before he can predict movements which boosts his fighting ability (which already was great). This battle would not be finished fast, it would go down to the last bolt on each gundam. But, in the end Heero would be standing on top of zero all stern face and go "Mission Complete."

[xHeavyArmsx]

I agree with that. The Seed fans dont seem to understand how great a soldier Heero actually is. With the Zero system, he does manage to fully intergrate with his suit, and he is one with it.

[rangeofhakke]

I am glad you agree with me heavy arms....sweet avatar by the way.

[dragonanimegirl8]

HEERO YUY WOULD SOOOO WIN!!! HE AND ZERO ARE LIKE.... INSEPIABLE!(except for when he blows zero up) BUT STILL! HEERO WOULD WIN! HE'S THE BEST PILOT ((::next to spike::)) IN THE ANIME NATION!!!

[Chopstickx]

I agree with that. The Seed fans dont seem to understand how great a soldier Heero actually is. With the Zero system, he does manage to fully intergrate with his suit, and he is one with it.
maybe you Wing fans need to see it from both views too =0 even though i voted for Heero

[ssouske]

ok fine... heero was a good soldier... heero was hell bent in completing his missions... heero would kill himself if it is a requirement of his mission... heero would kill anyone who would prevent him from completing his mission (exempt releena)... and yes... heero can sync himself with the ZERO system perfectly as if the gundam was his body(sumthing like takumi and AE86 in initial d...)... but wingers some how are blinded by kira's mental and physical edge ever heero... yes its what we seeders call the ULTIMATE COORDINATOR THING... No matter how great of a soldier you are, no matter how dynamic you can be, as long as your opponent has the edge in terms of reaction time, mental strength and overall physical abilities, i really do think that kira will edge out heero because heero is just a normal human being... Ed the ripper said, when he reenters the atmosphere, as a normal human being (natural), he does not stand a chance of surviving the tempratures that kira experienced when he reentered the atmosphere with strike... in wing, the gundams are all soo great that they can reenter the atmosphere without the cooling systems that SEED needed... lets just see if heero can re-enter the earth's atmosphere with strike and survive that... but i guess it is pointless to argue with this topic coz hard core wingers will still say that "HEERO ROCKS!" or sumthing like that... I just hope that they can see the real difference that a newtype or a coordinator will make in battles...

[Gun-damn]

just about how u said heero and all that did atmospheric decents using their gundams, while only coordinators in seed could do it in their suits. thats coz seed is more serious on real life physics compared to wing. just had to point that out.

[rangeofhakke]

Well IMO i am seeing it from both sides. If you put any other gundam pilot against kira i would vote kira without even giving a reason, because kira is amazing...hands down he is amazing. heero and kira are tied as my fav characters. i at no time said this would be a hands down battle, and i give kira all the credit he deserves. I said this battle would go down to the last bolt on each gundam, because there is no way either of them would just plain own one another. but, even if some one sees both sides they still choose a winner. my winner is heero, but damn i really did not want to have to choose. i personally rather see them on the same team just owning everyone else, i don't even care what the story would be. Just make them a two man team owning every one in gundam.

[Hidd3N_NiN]

I find it quite unfair that you Kira/ Freedom supporters like to say that Freedom has better agility and speed than Wing Zero just because the Animation quality in SEED and SEED DESTINY was much better than back in Gundam Wing therefore they can create and show that speed effect much better in SEED/DESTINY than in Wing. If Gundam Wing was recreated with today's better animation technology and Wing's real speed can be actually portrayed, IMO it can be seen that Gundam Wing was much faster than Freedom.

With that point in mind, Freedom also looks so strong because the Animators can create much better battle scenes so they went all out with SEED and DESTINY while for Gundam Wing, the animators had to make do with what they could do back then.

Anyway, IMO I find that Heero might win Kira though it would be a close battle. The Freedom is obviously better armed than Wing Zero but Wing Zero is pretty strong as well and as you said, the Wing Zero only has its TBR, vulcan guns and beam sabers but its pretty amazing Heero could fight so well with such a limited armnament. I don't see how the nuclear reactor could help since I don't recall seeing any Gundams in Gundam Wing run out of power before.

Also, if I compare Heero vs Kira to a Naruto context. I would say it would be like comparing Sasuke (Heero) against Naruto (Kira). Heero has the Zero System (Sharingan) which allows him to predict the enemy's moves and beat his opponents by analysing their tactics while Kira is strong based on raw power (Kyuubi) coz the Freedom is so heavily armed and versatile. Just like the Naruto vs Sasuke fight, even though Naruto had a significant edge over Sasuke, who won in the end? It was Sasuke, who survived a major beatdown by Naruto (Not so much so in Manga).

Well, I'm just using that comparison to show that while Freedom may look uber. Its not true it would definitely beat the Wing Zero.

[Wave]

hmmm, let's see here. Saviour was basically like Wing Zero without the awesome rifle.
yet Freedom managed to trash it with oen swing. so therefore, Freedom wins =x

[rangeofhakke]

I find it quite unfair that you Kira/ Freedom supporters like to say that Freedom has better agility and speed than Wing Zero just because the Animation quality in SEED and SEED DESTINY was much better than back in Gundam Wing therefore they can create and show that speed effect much better in SEED/DESTINY than in Wing. If Gundam Wing was recreated with today's better animation technology and Wing's real speed can be actually portrayed, IMO it can be seen that Gundam Wing was much faster than Freedom.

With that point in mind, Freedom also looks so strong because the Animators can create much better battle scenes so they went all out with SEED and DESTINY while for Gundam Wing, the animators had to make do with what they could do back then.

Anyway, IMO I find that Heero might win Kira though it would be a close battle. The Freedom is obviously better armed than Wing Zero but Wing Zero is pretty strong as well and as you said, the Wing Zero only has its TBR, vulcan guns and beam sabers but its pretty amazing Heero could fight so well with such a limited armnament. I don't see how the nuclear reactor could help since I don't recall seeing any Gundams in Gundam Wing run out of power before.

Also, if I compare Heero vs Kira to a Naruto context. I would say it would be like comparing Sasuke (Heero) against Naruto (Kira). Heero has the Zero System (Sharingan) which allows him to predict the enemy's moves and beat his opponents by analysing their tactics while Kira is strong based on raw power (Kyuubi) coz the Freedom is so heavily armed and versatile. Just like the Naruto vs Sasuke fight, even though Naruto had a significant edge over Sasuke, who won in the end? It was Sasuke, who survived a major beatdown by Naruto (Not so much so in Manga).

Well, I'm just using that comparison to show that while Freedom may look uber. Its not true it would definitely beat the Wing Zero.

I just have to say that I completely agree with this post. I wanted to type something like this, cept with out the naruto analogy (as good as that was though), to express how i felt about the battle....but i was too lazy :sweatdrop

[AnbuShingami]

I think its a bit of a draw. however heero+zero system vs kira+zero system, kira would win in 2 seconds. hero was practically trained from birth to be the ultimate badass. Kira was still in highschool and barely knew what a gundam was! he hopped inside of strike, typed away and went "ooh so this is how imma own everyone". kira has more potential with the zero system than hero.

i think the naruto analogy is the other way around, hero is a bit of a genis but hes worked really hard for it, kira on the other hand is a supreme genis and didnt work much at all.

[staradderdragoon]

well i think i would come down to this. is heero (who is the only one who can truly take the pressure from the zero system) better than kira (in berserker mode who is also the ultimate coordinator)? gundam wise, i think that wing zero and freedom are equal. i mean they both have extreme agility and they have tons of firepower. but knowing kira and heero, they would probably go into using beam sabers and not get far. but in close combat, freedom does have an advantage because they way its weapons are designed to be more functional while the buster rifle is mainly for long distance. but its not fair to compare gundams since "cosmic era" is after "after colony" so technology would have been improved. its really a comparison of who's the better pilot with their add-ons....

[itachidattebayo]

Hard choice to make.......Freedom obviously has advantage over Wing Zero for firepower and probably agility but in fact Heero is a better pilot than Kira and if heero were a coordinator, not even Kira were be a match for his piloting skills if they both went berserk......

[staradderdragoon]

Hard choice to make.......Freedom obviously has advantage over Wing Zero for firepower and probably agility but in fact Heero is a better pilot than Kira and if heero were a coordinator, not even Kira were be a match for his piloting skills if they both went berserk......

if that's true, then it would be a defenite draw right? or am i wrong? i never thought of heero as a better pilot than kira though....how do u measure that?

[sasukecopyninja]

Freedom woudl win because Kiera is so miuch better now, plus the speed and acuracy give him a heck of an advantage:P

[rangeofhakke]

if that's true, then it would be a defenite draw right? or am i wrong? i never thought of heero as a better pilot than kira though....how do u measure that?

yea there is always the chance they kill each other. These two are my favs and even though i chose one of them to win it was hard to chose, but it just really comes down to who you feel could take the other. I am pretty sure this will just come down to a saber fight, freedom and Zeros guns will be useless. Heero will destroy kiras guns and kira will destroy heeros. It will be all out saber on saber. but, for reasons stated before i still go with heero on this one. but, would rather they team up and destroy everyone else.

[theoneandonly]

*votes Freedom*

[staradderdragoon]

yea there is always the chance they kill each other. These two are my favs and even though i chose one of them to win it was hard to chose, but it just really comes down to who you feel could take the other. I am pretty sure this will just come down to a saber fight, freedom and Zeros guns will be useless. Heero will destroy kiras guns and kira will destroy heeros. It will be all out saber on saber. but, for reasons stated before i still go with heero on this one. but, would rather they team up and destroy everyone else.

i agree. heero would probably win because i've seen heero involved more in saber fights than anything else. kira always uses the guns on freedom. but if they teamed up, they would be invincible

[WhiteLight]

Heero has been in more battles than Kira and he does have the zero system. I think heero has a higher chance of winning.

However, overall I believe it'll be a tie. My reason, because once kira goes all SEED", and start kicking heero. Heero will self destruct and take out the freedom with him. Heero will find a way to survive he always does. the same goes for kira too.

[ssouske]

i can't believe someone actually revived this thread... 0_o

[teh Panda]

heero...and the zero system.
kira is badass too...but heero is wing's version of a coordinator, and he has the zero system. Freedom is prob the toughest gundam...but zero can avoid the firepower and take ti to a saber duel...and

...zero wont go..."phase shift down...." :cry

j/k

but ...heero... better pilot IMO:amuse

[Comic Book Guy]

Doesn't this thread belong in the OB?

[Halcyon Days]

Although Zero is my favorite i have to go with Freedom, because isn't it nuclear powered that gives it an insane amount of strength and I dont know if the buster rifle can handle, energy weapons packed by nuclear strength

[Mindless]

heero...and the zero system.
kira is badass too...but heero is wing's version of a coordinator, and he has the zero system. Freedom is prob the toughest gundam...but zero can avoid the firepower and take ti to a saber duel...and

...zero wont go..."phase shift down...." :cry

j/k

but ...heero... better pilot IMO:amuse

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Freedom is weak and voulnerable compared to many other mobile suits.

[staradderdragoon]

^haha tell me about it. it got so trashed when fighting providence. strike freedom wasnt much better.

@DekaBreak
haha. i'm like reading my posts from 2 years ago....sheesh

[dspr8_rugged]

Doesn't this thread belong in the OB?
When I created this thread, the Outskirts Battledome section wasn't there yet. :)

And I can't believe that this thread is still alive.

I remember voting for Wing Zero for this one, although I think Kira can now pwn Heero using the Strike Freedom, even if Heero has the Wing Zero Custom. :P

[ssouske]

^haha tell me about it. it got so trashed when fighting providence. strike freedom wasnt much better.

@DekaBreak
haha. i'm like reading my posts from 2 years ago....sheesh

lol! im quite surprised... as this is the 2nd time this thread was revived... and for most of the time, wingers are the guys that resurect old dead threads... :P i wonder why they all resurect these dead ones...

[teh Panda]

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Freedom is weak and voulnerable compared to many other mobile suits.

...my next sentence related its toughness directly to its firepower...
thats the conclusion ...and watching it is how i came to that conclusion:wink

and...i didnt say it would win either...i voted zero cuz it wouldnt b a battle that freedom could really use its firepower.

...and i wonder why some rhetorical questions are asked in odd, turets syndrome fashion...when n00bs to a forum come to comment...
...wingers...lol...

[Mindless]

...wingers...lol...

You sure nailed that one. :)

If it's firepower we're talking about then the Double X would win. However, it would have been taken out before it could fire...

If we're talking a tough gundam, that would be the Nu Gundam.

It more or less singlehandedly stopped a asteroid (Axis) from crashing down on earth, and when I say stopped, I don't mean like Heero using his gun to blow it up. Amuro pushed it away.

[staradderdragoon]

^really. i never saw the Nu Gundam as a tough gundam. what about hi-nu?

[ssouske]

yeah... nu gundam really did push axis away... and it was kinda insane... but in the end i think it exploded... but it did manage to push axis...

Hi-Nu is an MSV... i think... so i have no clear idea how it performs... but it should be at least the same as Nu, if not better...

[staradderdragoon]

what's an msv?

[ssouske]

uhm... it stands for Mobile Suit Variation... they're modified versions or prototype versions of suits that came out in the anime... usually those MSV's are featured/shown in games or manga... a popular example in C.E. are the Gold Frame, Blue Frame, and Red Frame Astray are MSV suits... or the Proto chaos and Proto Saviour... or the Dreadnought gundam... in wing, i think the G-Unit suits are considered as MSV... in U.C. they had several MSVs for the zaku, the dom, and even the RX-78

[shinryuzero]

1. Heero wasn't really raised by Doctor J, He was raised by Lowe. The one who assassinated the Original Heero Yuy.
2. Lowe raised Heero for one purpose. To train Heero and use him to get back at those who ordered him to assassinate the original Heero Yuy.
3. Lowe Failed. He was killed Before he could accomplish this task.
4. Heero avenged Lowe by killing Lowe's Assassins at about the age of 9(If memory serves me right, Sorry Katakana isn't my strong side in translating)
5. Doctor J found him later and after learning what Heero has done asked him if he wants to Pilot a Gundam and attone the sins that lowe has done. Heero aggreed and was furtherly train in the art of being an Assassin.
6. His first mission was a success but it also paved way to know Heero's only weakness Emotion. When Heero's "Sponsors" learned about this they immedietly asked Heero to be retrained... To KILL ANY EMOTION THAT HE MAY HAVE (See GW:Endless Waltz for the Scene).
7. Heero was Finally without emotion. Only the Accomplisment of the MISSION Directed to him. Heero Became The Perfect Soldier at age 14, His Body and mind trained to excel in ways more than any Human can be... The End result A "KAI". In the Gundam Universe, a "KAI" is more than a match to anyone, even Better than NT's (Referrences: New Type Magazine Jap. Edition, SD Gundam G-Generation).
Perfect Coordinator:
A coordinator whos entire aspect of what the Parents want are finally realized. This is due to the fact the Physical aspects are completed due to the absence of the natural womb of a Mother. Hence forth the result of an "Artificial Womb" could be a perfect Coordinator. This is why Kira Yamato was called the Perfect Coordinator. His not Really greater or better than any other coordinators. His just the perfect result of what every aspect a Parent wants their children to have... In other words like a clone. (See: Gundam Seed Destiny, Gundam Seed Destiny +, gundamofficial.com, Wikipedia, Gundam Seed Astray, Official Bandai release info. Etch.)

Freedom/Strike-Freedom:
Phase Shift Armor:
The most distinctive feature of the prototype Gundams developed by the Atlantic Federation. While active, this special armor nullifies all attacks by physical weapons, including blades, projectiles, and conventional explosives. However, it has no effect against beam and laser weapons, so most of the Gundams also carry shields treated with anti-beam coating. And because PS Armor consumes large amounts of energy, it cannot be used for extended periods lest it drain the mobile suit's energy battery. PS Armor changes color upon activation. The Gundams which use this technology thus sport brilliant colors while in their Active Mode, and turn a dull gray when they switch to Deactive Mode.
Powerplant: ultracompact nuclear fission reactor
Main Metal: Titanium Alloy
High Mobility Aerial Tactics Mode (HiMAT Mode):
Now For ZERO:
The ZERO (Zoning & Emotional Range Omitted) System is a technology for interfacing the brain of the pilot with the mobile suit's computer, it could be comparable to the Universal Century's biocomputer in the Zeta Gundam. This system would not only increase the pilot's reaction times as there are no need for traditional visual interfaces, but thanks to the advanced computations performed by the computer, the pilot can become aware of future outcomes and possible courses of action that can be taken to achieve total victory or total defeat. However, due to the bidirectional nature of the system, the system had the negative side effect of creating hallucinations for those with poor mental strength, as the mood and thinking of the pilot can create a feedback loop in the system, leading to temporary insanity. Also people who are "Sensitive" Like NT's or Coordinators are prone to the negative effects of this system. (Referrences: New Type Magazine Jap. Edition, SD Gundam G-Generation series, Wikipedia Etch.)
Main Metal: Gundanium Alloy One of the central elements of Gundam Wing's mobile suits is the use of Gundanium Alloy. What makes Gundanium so incredible is its properties: it is practically immutable, highly heat-resistant, and electrically neutral. These properties combine to produce a material that is extremely hard to damage, lending to the Gundams' atmosphere of invincibility and intimidation. Additionally, heat and beam weapons produced using Gundanium are much stronger than similar weapons made using traditional titanium, thanks to its extremely high melting point allowing it to produce hotter and therefore stronger beam energy. The name is actually a misnomer, since Gundanium is not technically an alloy; it contains non-ferrous metals and non-metallic elements. Gundanium is very rare and hard to make, since it requires the use of super-heated plasma and nanomachines, and very few people know exactly how to make and refine it. Further, it is said that Gundanium can only be produced at Lagrange points under zero-gravity conditions, putting a very powerful tool in the hands of the colonial rebels. There is a common misconception that Gundanium is nigh-invincible; this has been disproven by several instances in Gundam Wing and Endless Waltz where the Gundams were damaged, usually by beam weapons. However, this has also lead to the supposition that Gundanium is especially strong against solid weapons, like traditional machineguns (as is the similar alloy Gundarium, from the Universal Century). This second theory may have some truth to it: according to the novelization of Gundam Wing, a physical impact roughly equal to the force of a train travelling at 120 kilometers per hour while towing ten-plus transport cars would be enough to easily destroy Gundanium. This is also covered in the series where Heero attempts to destroy the Wing Gundam with several naval torpedoes detonated simultaneously, although no exact figures are quoted and the gundam appears undamaged afterwards. Gundanium's name is actually an acronym; it stands for Genetic on Universal Neutrally Different Alloy. The suffix -nium was added to distinguish it from similar alloys being made on Earth. In the After Colony Universe, the word "Gundam" is derived from this acronym (GUNDAnium Mobile suit). Despite this fact, not every mobile suit made with Gundanium is a Gundam (examples: Vayeate, Mercurius). In an Easter Egg of the Series, Gundanium is referred to as "Gundarium Theta" which would make it an eighth-generation descendant of the Lunar Titanium used on the original RX-78-2 Gundam (Nu and Even Hi-Nu) of the Universal Century. (Refference:SD Gundam G-Generation series, Wikipedia).
Powerplant: ultracompact fusion reactor
Twin Buster Rifle (Special or Customed Rifle):
The First Buster Rifle can Only Fire 3 Shots But the Twin Buster Rifle can perform Infinite shots. It is also Good to note that The said arnament (TBR) produces a high concentrated energy that even pierces Energy Coating, Beam Coating and high Energy Shield. TBR also has its own Power Generator and can Sustain High Energy outputs. (Reference: Articles and News letter from NT Mag., some from websites, SD Gundam G-Generation series Etch.)

ZERO incorporates Technologies that are After Colony and SHOULD HAVE NEVER EXISTED or WASN'T SUPPOSED TO EVEN EXIST. Nuclear or Fussion? In the real World Fussion Power is a Rare and high Technology more powerful than Nuclear, Plus it cleaner and safer. ZERO System was created for a mobile suit that "Can Adjust to Every Situation the System Needs to be Succesful". In The Words of Zech's when he first Piloted ZERO "Mobility is Perfect, Performance is perfect, Speed is Perfect...". If you think about it, ZERO System can be Given to any Mobile suit or Gundam but the result of its performance will Vary coz of the limitation of the said MS or Gundam's Capabilities. This is proven when Heero put a ZERO Sytem interface into Sandrock, The Strategical part of ZERO was used well but the Battle capabilities was not due to SR's limitations. This was also true with T'ien-Lung Gundam from Gundam Wing: Tiel's Impulse, Although it incorporates the New ZERO System ZERO 2.5 (A more Friendly user ZERO System) it still lacks the performance the ZERO System wants thus it ended up only best in controlling Mobile Dolls. Now As for Pilot Skills, Kira is a Good Pilot but the System Kira is Using that "SeeDers" are so proud off isn't really Designed by Kira... It was design by Lowe Guele of Gundam Seed Astray who design the System and was later used by Kira to improve the Gundams used by the Naturals. Lowe's system or OS only Aims to disable the opponent coz Lowe doesn't want to kill. Lowe, is the actual person who rescued Kira after the Battle of Strike and Aegis. Kira, seeing the OS was good, Incorporated the System to both his Freedom and Strike Freedom. So generaly speaking, KIRA IS NOT THE ONE WHO ACTUALLY AIMS, BUT IT IS DUE TO THE SYSTEM HE ALSO USES. BTW Lowe is a born NATURAL. According to Numerous articles written and some interviews to Mitsuo Fukuda, Mizuho Takayama and Riu Koto Athrun is far more better than Kira when it comes to piloting, but Kira has more Charisma (Generaly I have no Idea what charisma has to do with piloting). Heero on the other hand was born and raised to surpass human limitations, to be a perfect killing machine (Although I don't agree his a Perfect killing machine. He can kill alright but he still has some compassion left.) BTW the ZERO System only Urges you to do the possible outcomes of the Data imputted to it, The Final Results still will come from the pilot. As for the "ZERO gave me no answer" from EW, ZERO was designed for battle not for something like "Will I kill again" scenarios. So My Vote goes For Heero and Wing ZERO. But I will say this Heero may be good but in the end every Gundam Pilot has his or her unique qualities that make them the best at what they are. NT's, COOR's and Kai types alike.

[Mindless]

One word: Paragraphs...

My eyes are bleeding. In the end, I didn't even understand how you came to the conclusion that Heero somehow would win.

And explain to me 'Kai'-types? I consider myself fairly versed when it comes to gundams but I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you talking about something / someone like Kai Shiden (from MSG and Zeta)?

^really. i never saw the Nu Gundam as a tough gundam. what about hi-nu?

Amuro's Hi-Nu and Char's Nightingale are considered the pinnacle of mobile suit technology. In other words, the most powerful mobile suits ever built in the Universal Century.

[staradderdragoon]

really? holy shit....ok, stupid question. which gundam series are these in? must go download all awesome gundam series. which ones should i get. and a link to a good torrent would be good.

[Mindless]

Well, the Nu and Sazabi are from Char's Counterattack. The Hi-Nu and Nightingale are from a manga called Char's Counterattack: Beltorchika's Children, so no anime for that.

[staradderdragoon]

^ah ic. is char's counterattack by itself or part of another series.

[dspr8_rugged]

Seems like we're going off-topic on some parts now... :huh

[Comic Book Guy]

Indeed.

Not to mention the thread is quite old. . .

[sdsky]

heero with kill intent

[Matrix XZ]

I vote for Kira Yamato.

[Donkey Show]

Amuro's Hi-Nu and Char's Nightingale are considered the pinnacle of mobile suit technology. In other words, the most powerful mobile suits ever built in the Universal Century.

Wait wha? Maybe in that particular 5 year era, but F91, the Crossbones, and V2 would eat them up.

It more or less singlehandedly stopped a asteroid (Axis) from crashing down on earth, and when I say stopped, I don't mean like Heero using his gun to blow it up. Amuro pushed it away.

Nu Gundam and Amuro didn't do it by itself. It was the reaction of everyone trying to stop the meteor amplified by a malfunction in the Nu's psychoframe and Char's and Amuro's intense hatred for each other in the end.

And my original choice still stands, Wing Zero. =P

[U-Baka-Tube]

If you go by Gundam Game datas Freedom/Hands wins hands down. Kira has nearly equal skill level as Amuro, Camille and Jadau (3 of the strongest Newtypes out there) while he is in SEED mode. Plus let's not forget that is a also somewhat of a newtype even though Mwe and other's ability havn't been named yet.

WZ is overhyped with it's Zero system, it sucks in every combined gundam games I played it and if you have to add WZC here then Kira will be using Strike Freedom which is even more terrible for WZC. The only gundam that can go possibly toe-toe with Strike Freedom is Nu and V2 (animated series only of course).

[Stallyns808]

I like Wing Zero a lot but I would probably have to go with Freedom. Freedom is one of the most agile suits in all of Gundam, plus its quick spammable weapons, is piloted by Jesus Yamato and it's nuclear engine gives it a bit more of an edge of Wing Zero and Heero Yuy.

[Wesley]

Wing Zero. They're on entirely different levels of wank.

[~Shin~]

Shouldn't this be in the OBD?

[Halcyon Days]

Does the nuclear engine really have an effect. When has anyone ever seen a gundam in Wing needing a refueling, let alone wing Zero. Th eonly reason teh nuclear engine was so big in seed was because most their mobile suits did need to be recharged, but in Wing their was no power meter for running out of energy. The only thing that had a limit was weapons.
I'm going for Wing Zero

[Biolink]

It's nuclear engine gives it no edge.

There was no worldwide energy crisis in Wing like in Seed.

If you go by Gundam Game datas Freedom/Hands wins hands down. Kira has nearly equal skill level as Amuro, Camille and Jadau (3 of the strongest Newtypes out there) while he is in SEED mode. Plus let's not forget that is a also somewhat of a newtype even though Mwe and other's ability havn't been named yet.

No he is not a Newtype.Fukada said that it was only a homage to Amuro.The only CE Newtype's are the Da Flaaga clones,and maybe one or two others that I can't think of immediately that are manga characters.

[kenok]

Kira Yamato/Freedom wins indefinitely...ultimate coordinator + phase shift :P

[Biolink]

Ugggghh.

Ultimate Coordinator means nothing except he came out exactly the way he was supposed to.It doesn't make him any stronger or weaker than other coordinators.His birth was just different than most Coordinator's.

There is a Coordinator in the manga named Canard Pars that was a "failed" specimen in the Ultimate Coordinator Project.The only thing that makes him imperfect,and not considered an "Ultimate Coordinator" is because either his hair or eye color came out wrong(I forget which one).Otherwise he isn't that much different than Kira.

Phase Shift or the Variable Phase Shift as a material isn't even close to Gundarium.Phase shift only stops artillery and missiles(Which basically isn't even used by the end of Gundam Seed).Gundarium can withstand beam weapons

[CrysisZERO]

Unfortunately, The victor would be Kira in the Freedom. The only reason he can win is because his mobile suit can spam like crazy(which is why SEED was not too great). If The Freedom had a limit to how many times it can fire it's plasma cannons and railguns, Wing Zero would most likely win. or If Wing Zero could spam, then Heero wins again.

[Halcyon Days]

What do you mean what if wing zero could span. Wing Zero's buster rifle has never shown a limit, and its more powerful than any of Kira's laser arsenal.

[Ha-ri]

Kira "God hax" Yamato,

If the two pilots found in mass produced units it would definitely be Heero Yuy.

[NeoChaos]

Wing zero's power output is 3732kw, which is pretty high...in his universe
X-10A freedom power output is 8826kw, now the X20-A is suppose to be 3x's that of the X-10A. do the math.... the beam cannon in strike freedoms chest can out last the power of the wing zero's buster rifle.

[NeoChaos]

its true that gundanium is a stronger metal than the basic armor of a gundam in the seed universe, but with phase shift seed gundams can tolorate more damage in various enviorments. until the phase shift power runs out. then its a whole nother story...but the only way for that to happen is to force tremendouse damage to the gundam....

X-20A Freedom would never have to worry about this problem due to the fact that it runs off of a ultracompact hyper deuterion nuclear reactor. ( a reactor that recycles and prolongs the use of beam weapons including phase shift)

Wing cant win

[Halcyon Days]

not neccesairly true, phase shift limit was described by a pre-determined number in the series. They even said regular missles would be able to take down a phase shift armor. That was its weaknes, and where the hell did u get those calculations from. show me where it gave you all the information you posted about their power output.

[NeoChaos]

and finally, yes kira is an ultimate coordinator, this means that he was born from an artificial womb which makes him the "perfect child", immune to any illness. To say heero is tougher than kira is crazy. yea heero's character is a complete bad ass fixing broken bones and also stripping down a gundam and repairing his in one night, but kira (coordinators) were BORN faster, smarter, and stronger than humans.

seed mode 'berserker' with this he is unstoppable... even though humans too can achieve this stage, coordinators seem to take it beyond the name berserker.

When a human achieved this they lost all controll and just fought with raw power. kira,and athrun never lost controll but yet gained complete focus on the battel field

[NeoChaos]

not neccesairly true, phase shift limit was described by a pre-determined number in the series. They even said regular missles would be able to take down a phase shift armor. That was its weaknes, and where the hell did u get those calculations from. show me where it gave you all the information you posted about their power output.



i found alot of info here http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm

dont get me wrong, im a fan of both gundams and there pilots. im actually going back throught the wing era right now.

[Wesley]

According to that site "Powerplant Unknown" for Wing Zero. I imagine it's rather high since it completely blew away a colony.

[Halcyon Days]

According to that site "Powerplant Unknown" for Wing Zero. I imagine it's rather high since it completely blew away a colony.

thats what I was thinking...

[NeoChaos]

thats what I was thinking...


the power plant is the sourse/location of the gundam not the power it puts out.

[Wesley]

the power plant is the sourse/location of the gundam not the power it puts out.

You used the number for the powerplant on the Freedom...

[NeoChaos]

i used its power output. i also used the wing gundam zero, just to give the battle a better look, and if im not mistaken both models are exactly the same in power, speed ect..., the only difference is the cosmetics.

[Wesley]

i used its power output. i also used the wing gundam zero, just to give the battle a better look, and if im not mistaken both models are exactly the same in power, speed ect..., the only difference is the cosmetics.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed/zgmf-x10a.htm

And the power output wasn't given for either Wing or Wing Zero on that site.

[NeoChaos]

check it out......http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm

[Wesley]

check it out......http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm

You check it out. There's no power figure for either Wing or Wing Zero. If there is, point it out on the site with a link.

[Azure Flame Kite]

Please doesn't Gundanium armor take beam sabers like nothing?

[NeoChaos]

You check it out. There's no power figure for either Wing or Wing Zero. If there is, point it out on the site with a link.

i apologize for the link .go to where it says new mobile report gundam wing endless walts. then click XXXG-00W0 Wing Gundam Zero.

[NeoChaos]

its 3rd under gundam wing

[NeoChaos]

Please doesn't Gundanium armor take beam sabers like nothing?

the best way i can put it is yes....considering who they were fighting.

with out the "what if's". gundams only evolve as times go on. have you ever noticed the machines or computers/technology used during that time, compared to what you see in seed/destiny. there clothes, hair,even there pilot suits were outdated.

its like fighting swords with lightsabers and kira is darth vador

gundam 00 has mobile suits that dont even use booster to fly. it runs off a certain energy, i tell more info on that later.

[Biolink]

and finally, yes kira is an ultimate coordinator, this means that he was born from an artificial womb which makes him the "perfect child", immune to any illness. To say heero is tougher than kira is crazy. yea heero's character is a complete bad ass fixing broken bones and also stripping down a gundam and repairing his in one night, but kira (coordinators) were BORN faster, smarter, and stronger than humans.

seed mode 'berserker' with this he is unstoppable... even though humans too can achieve this stage, coordinators seem to take it beyond the name berserker.

When a human achieved this they lost all controll and just fought with raw power. kira,and athrun never lost controll but yet gained complete focus on the battel field

and finally, yes kira is an ultimate coordinator, this means that he was born from an artificial womb which makes him the "perfect child", immune to any illness.

...Which is a trait of ALL coordinators.There was only one that I can think of immediately that was in the manga that only had the brains of an intelligent Coordinator,but had the Physical body of a Natural(Which means he didn't get stronger and he wasn't immune to disease like the others).Other's may have similar ailments.Who knows.

To say heero is tougher than kira is crazy. yea heero's character is a complete bad ass fixing broken bones and also stripping down a gundam and repairing his in one night, but kira (coordinators) were BORN faster, smarter, and stronger than humans.

And >.>?

It's not automatically set in stone that a Coordinator will always be better than a Natural.They are born with better tools to work with true,but as with everything there are always exceptions.There are freaks like Heero,that have trained extremely well,and can keep up with Coordinator's from what I have seen in both Anime's.And I've really seen Kira do nothing that Heero couldn't do(Maybe the OS programming being the only thing I can think of).Heero hasn't exploded in MS'ses left and right,but they both survived atmospheric re-entry,and in Heero's case has survived other thing's(Broken bones from opening his parachute too late,and maybe some stuff I have forgotten).

Beyond that,it seems like you are implying that if they were to ever meet in combat,an untrained,but battle saavy Kira would be able to defeat Heero who has been in the military and combat since he was a child.Plain and simply,Heero would fucking murder Kira if they ever met outside of a MS.


seed mode 'berserker' with this he is unstoppable... even though humans too can achieve this stage, coordinators seem to take it beyond the name berserker.

Zero System...

Also in Kira's case other's have gotten the best of him while in SEED mode,while that has rarely happened to Athrun and Shinn.And it's not Berserker.SEED is explained as a "Physical representation of surpassing one's limits",so really applying to SEED all you have to do is surpass your limits and you get SEED mode.Beyond that I don't recall any Natural except Cagalli getting SEED mode,and she only used it maybe once or twice,so as far as Naturals getting out of control.No

Lastly something that irked me.Coordinators are Humans.Genetically altered,but still Humans.They bleed just like us,just were born with better short term tools(Stronger mind and body),but will have more long term problems(Low birth rates,and possibly birth defects).


with out the "what if's". gundams only evolve as times go on. have you ever noticed the machines or computers/technology used during that time, compared to what you see in seed/destiny. there clothes, hair,even there pilot suits were outdated.

Mobile Dolls?

I didn't see or recall it being done in SEED,but at the end of Wing,Mobile Dolls were more reliable and dangerous than humans,and gave the Gundam pilots tons of problems.Heck two of them(Mercurious I think and the other one)were programmed with AI from Heero and Trowa.As far as computers and stuff like that No.I'd probably say it's a Push there overall.If you want to talk about Wing Zero's AI vs Freedom's AI,then Wing Zero's AI wins in an absolute ass rape.As for Aesthetics,bleh whatever,but how a person's hair is or how much more attractive a Pilot suit is,has nothing to do with how well they can pilot(In which case I would say the AI and the pilot comes much more into play).

[Halcyon Days]

Hell, Heero jumped from a 100ft. cliff and hit the ground, and still was alive. I know Kira can't do that. Heero had over 200 injuries and broken bones, btu it still didn't affect his piloting, I KNOW he's tougher than Kira.

[Wesley]

i apologize for the link .go to where it says new mobile report gundam wing endless walts. then click XXXG-00W0 Wing Gundam Zero.

You mean this (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/xxxg-00w0.htm)? There's no powerplant rating.

[Halcyon Days]

Their is.

Here it is.

Powerplant: ultracompact fusion reactor, power output rating unknown

It was right under armour materials

[Wesley]

Their is.

Here it is.



It was right under armour materials

I meant there's no number. He kept claiming there was.

[Agitation]

This is a never ending arguement :neutral

Maybe we should officialy skip onto part 2: Strike Freedom vs Wing Zero Custom.

I've never seen Endless Waltz so i'm not sure what added features the Zero Custom got- discussion?

[Halcyon Days]

A better design, more mobility

[NeoChaos]

You mean this (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/xxxg-00w0.htm)? There's no powerplant rating.

no. that is not what i meant. does that look like the gundam from endless walt? look a little harder

[NeoChaos]

This is a never ending arguement :neutral

Maybe we should officialy skip onto part 2: Strike Freedom vs Wing Zero Custom.

I've never seen Endless Waltz so i'm not sure what added features the Zero Custom got- discussion?

these where the gundams i was refering to. endless waltz was pretty hott you should check it out.

[Wesley]

no. that is not what i meant. does that look like the gundam from endless walt? look a little harder

What's so hard about posting a link? I found it though.

Well, that's fairly straight forward as far as stats go. Feats/acts of plot are generally better in Wing though.

[NeoChaos]

Hell, Heero jumped from a 100ft. cliff and hit the ground, and still was alive. I know Kira can't do that. Heero had over 200 injuries and broken bones, btu it still didn't affect his piloting, I KNOW he's tougher than Kira.

Yeah....right.

Check out Gundam seed episode 30 & gundam seed destiny episode 35

if you dont own the set or youtube doesnt have it , check out animefuel.com

[NeoChaos]

this is to BIOLINK... 1st. i was only "explaining" the meaning of ultimate coordinator.

2nd i was agreeing about heero being a tough SOB, but what would be the point of creating a coordinator if he/she wasnt superior to "Normal" Humans.

3rd. the difference between an ordinary and ultimate coordinator is that their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator

4th. i know its not beserker but that what it was refered "similar" to in GS episode 21.
i dont want to quote anything from that episode since i only have the Japanese version.

5th. i dont think strike freedom has a AI, nothing like ZERO SYSTEM. i know looks dont make the pilot, i was just using there looks to show the time & technology differences " I dont want to place any spoilers directly on the page but check out the ORB-01 Akatsuki, and the AI dolls that lacus clyne has. in gunam00 that is used as an ai system.
im just saying seed technology is beyond wings reach.

I dont know what skill kira may have in physical combat, hell he didnt have any skills as a pilot but look at him now. with him being an ultimate coordinator he may already have the knowledge of martial arts, since all of his attributes and abilites were controlled scientificly by his pops.

[Halcyon Days]

Yeah....right.

Check out Gundam seed episode 30 & gundam seed destiny episode 35

if you dont own the set or youtube doesnt have it , check out animefuel.com

Yeah right my foot. Check episodes 2 and 3 of gundam wing, and I've already seen them. Its no doubt heero is more physically and mentally tough.

[NeoChaos]

Yeah right my foot. Check episodes 2 and 3 of gundam wing, and I've already seen them. Its no doubt heero is more physically and mentally tough.

Kira took on an explosion from two gundams at point blank range. might i add his cockpit was blown open and the only thing protecting him was......nothing.

Then kira withstood a second explotion while still inside the gundam. that explotion took out multible ships as well... i hate sounding like a fanboy but be for real.

[NeoChaos]

Kira took on an explosion from two gundams at point blank range. might i add his cockpit was blown open and the only thing protecting him was......nothing.

Then kira withstood a second explotion while still inside the gundam. that explotion took out multible ships as well... i hate sounding like a fanboy but be for real.

sorry about gsd episode 35 i meant 34

[Wesley]

I think Heero's plotkai is stronger than Kira's. Technically, Kira should be better in every way, since he's a Coordinator. I suppose things like mass and height would still matter, but probably not so much.

[NeoChaos]

i was just going to write i agree but it said my message was to short.... i agree

[united]

i dont know.
if kira uses the normal freedom it would be a though desision. wings armor and beam rifle is superior but kira's skills are better (although the zero system will composate a bit for it). but if kira uses the strike freedom he would win ,because of the dragoon system installed he can attack from 9 points at once.

if mobility becomes a factor i dont know which one is better. i say there both equal.

[Biolink]

this is to BIOLINK... 1st. i was only "explaining" the meaning of ultimate coordinator.

2nd i was agreeing about heero being a tough SOB, but what would be the point of creating a coordinator if he/she wasnt superior to "Normal" Humans.

3rd. the difference between an ordinary and ultimate coordinator is that their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator

4th. i know its not beserker but that what it was refered "similar" to in GS episode 21.
i dont want to quote anything from that episode since i only have the Japanese version.

5th. i dont think strike freedom has a AI, nothing like ZERO SYSTEM. i know looks dont make the pilot, i was just using there looks to show the time & technology differences " I dont want to place any spoilers directly on the page but check out the ORB-01 Akatsuki, and the AI dolls that lacus clyne has. in gunam00 that is used as an ai system.
im just saying seed technology is beyond wings reach.

I dont know what skill kira may have in physical combat, hell he didnt have any skills as a pilot but look at him now. with him being an ultimate coordinator he may already have the knowledge of martial arts, since all of his attributes and abilites were controlled scientificly by his pops.

Did you just totally skip over the most important points?

2nd i was agreeing about heero being a tough SOB, but what would be the point of creating a coordinator if he/she wasnt superior to "Normal" Humans.

YES on a more general basis Coordinator's are better than Naturals(I said this in the last post),but that is not always a rule set in stone.Heero and the other 4 Gundam pilots would serve as pretty good examples of glitches in the system(But keep in mind that this is cross universe comparison.I haven't seen any Natural in Seed perform like the 5 Gundam pilots of Wing)

3rd. the difference between an ordinary and ultimate coordinator is that their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator

Tell me something I don't know?I've been arguing about this for over a year now.Basically all the Ultimate Coordinator project was,was a project for Coordinator children to come out to be perfect designer babies.This project was made to appease vain parents.Recall during SEED when the mother denounces her child because the "Eye's were wrong".The mother's womb affected the child in a way,that the child would pick up genetic traits from the mother.The Artificial womb eliminates this variable and makes it so that they can control the birth's Aesthetics.Down to superficial thing's such as hair and eye color.

THAT'S IT

There are no other benefits such as being stronger than other Coordinator's from this project.

I already mentioned that Canard Pars which was Kira's "Brother" in the project was only thrown away because his hair color(Or eye color,one or the other)was wrong.If he was really that much more than the average Coordinator sans his Hair(Or eye) color coming out wrong,you would think they would keep him.

NOPE.


5th. i dont think strike freedom has a AI, nothing like ZERO SYSTEM. i know looks dont make the pilot, i was just using there looks to show the time & technology differences " I dont want to place any spoilers directly on the page but check out the ORB-01 Akatsuki, and the AI dolls that lacus clyne has. in gunam00 that is used as an ai system.
im just saying seed technology is beyond wings reach.


Please be more specific.

Lacus AI Dolls?

I can't think of any AI piloted suits that she had.Even the 3 Dom Troopers had pilots.

I'm talking about Mobile Dolls.Mobile Suits that are completely piloted by Artificial Intelligence.Artificial Intelligence that was good enough to give the Gundam pilots trouble at that.

I dont know what skill kira may have in physical combat, hell he didnt have any skills as a pilot but look at him now. with him being an ultimate coordinator he may already have the knowledge of martial arts, since all of his attributes and abilites were controlled scientificly by his pops.

...

Ugghhh.Here we go again.

The Ultimate Coordinator Project was not made to produce Super Soldiers.It was made to appease idiotic parents that were angry because superficial traits of their children were coming out wrong.That's it.The rest is entirely left up to that Coordinator to see how he grows.As I mentioned before Canard Pars was only considered a failed project because his hair or eye color came out wrong.You would think if he still was born with "Mad karate skillz!!11!",they would still keep him around or send him to the Military so that he could serve the ZAFT Military.

NOPE

Quite simply Kira has no distinction.Nobody knew that he would survive the project.He was just lucky enough to meet the Aesthetic standards so he was deemed "perfect".


I dont know what skill kira may have in physical combat, hell he didnt have any skills as a pilot but look at him now.


This is a special one

"GREATLY OVERUSED GUNDAM ARCHETYPE.READY?!GOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

He wouldn't be the first to jump into a Gundam without knowing what to do.He sure as hell won't be the last.I wouldn't say he had no skills at all.He defeated Miguel Aiman(Gundam Seed episode 1&2)who was pretty much a ZAFT Ace.He did show some semblance of skill when he had Strike.But look at him now.

It's ironic you say he didn't have any skills then,but he sure as hell hasn't shown any special piloting skills now,in Freedom and Strike Freedom.Awesome programmer,but as a pilot I would never take him over Shinn or a non-confused Athrun.

[NeoChaos]

Im not arguing with any of your statements, its like arguing with myself, we are just spitting facts to each other over and over again.

im tired of people who defend things but give wrong facts. Being a coordinator helps Kira, in the beginning he was unaware of what he can do, but as he got older (GSD) he became smarter and stronger as a gundam pilot.

with a clear mind Kira has proven himself to be the better gundam pilot, by rank and by skills.

Rank

Ensign (EAF) [GS][1]
Ensign (Orb) [GSD]
Admiral (Orb) [GSD]
Commander (Orb space fleet) [GSD]
White uniform (ZAFT) [GSDSE]

[Halcyon Days]

But you're comparing humans from two different universes saying since A>B that A>C which isnt true.

[NeoChaos]

doing that would simply eliminate all debates whether its superman vs goku or Stike freedom vs Wing gundam zero.

things are the way they are. we are simply taking two different characters and the gundams/mobile suits to a neutral zone, and each character is bring its own skill and technology.

i believe the term "UNIVERSE" is just a way to seperate each series by time. because each universe is affected by the previous one, some way some how.

[NeoChaos]

going back and looking up info on the ultimate coordinator, it is said that they would be superior to an ordinary coordinator. Kira yamato and Canard Pars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cosmic_Era_human_enhancements

[Biolink]

In the early 50's, renowned scientist Professor Ulen Hibiki proposed the usage of an artificial womb to circumvent the natural womb's shortcomings in order create an infant, which has all the intended genetic modifications without any deviations. This gives whoever is the Ultimate Coordinator superiority over the average Coordinators. Many "prototypes" failed, including Canard Pars, the only known one to have survived, before the last and successful "Ultimate Coordinator", Hibiki's son Kira Yamato, was born on May 18, CE 55. Kira grew up completely unaware of his origins until later during the Bloody Valentine War.

Oh right >_>

Let's quote Wikipedia now.

Some of the most misleading Anime information on the Internet,and to top it off ANYBODY can edit it.And speaking of editing

This gives whoever is the Ultimate Coordinator superiority over the average Coordinators.

That line reeks of being something tampered with.

Give me something official that says Ultimate Coordinator>Average Coordinator and I'll believe you.

As I said before they wouldn't have thrown Canard away if he survived the procedure,because logically according to that info even though his hair or eye color came out wrong,he would still be stronger than other Coordinator's.If anything you would think the Government would raise him to be a soldier or something in the future.

[NeoChaos]

what makes your info more reliable. and plus canards pars is a character created after the seed series was created. so in the anime there is no speak of him. the manga wasnt released till 3 months after.

tv series (oct 02 - sep 03) astray manga ( end of nov 03 - aug 04)

Kira was added to canards life to give the story some depth/ explaining canards past.

im sorry i cant find the info that says " your right" and "Im wrong"

and your still not proving anything to me that makes Heero or his Wing gundam/zero better than kira and his strike freedom.

so far, you basicly said that kira being the ultimate coordinator isnt different from a regular coordinator. so tell me what makes him the better than the other coordinators, it cant be the gundam, he doesnt have a military background, surely its not because of his eye or hair color....

[Cloud]

It's just unfair. Freedom is much more futuristic and much faster. On top of that, it is armed with more weapons than the Army.

[Kyubimon]

The thread said FREEDOM, right? Not STRIKE FREEDOM?

In any case, underdog as it may seem, I'm gunning for Heero and his Wing Zero over Kira and Freedom.

I'm counting on that tiny advantage called "brainwashed to be a 100% military nut" winning the match for Mr. Yuy. It's a close one, I admit, but Kira "doesn't go for the jugular".

[NeoChaos]

The thread said FREEDOM, right? Not STRIKE FREEDOM?

In any case, underdog as it may seem, I'm gunning for Heero and his Wing Zero over Kira and Freedom.

I'm counting on that tiny advantage called "brainwashed to be a 100% military nut" winning the match for Mr. Yuy. It's a close one, I admit, but Kira "doesn't go for the jugular".

it wouldnt be nessasary to create a seperate thread. Both gundams were upgraded (S Freedom & Wing Zero C...) if were goin to battle you might as well go all out.

in a way these to gundams and pilots are representing there era, thats how i see it anyway.

[Kyubimon]

it wouldnt be nessasary to create a seperate thread. Both gundams were upgraded (S Freedom & Wing Zero C...) if were goin to battle you might as well go all out.

in a way these to gundams and pilots are representing there era, thats how i see it anyway.

Agree with you on that, bro.

Just that the DRAGOONS take the fun out of watching Gundams fight... Because of this, Strike Freedom wins, specs-wise, regardless of which C.E. Pilot is on-cockpit.

As it is, the C.E. flagship suit is a cheese-loaded beam spammer in comparison to the A.C's flagship Wing Zero.

[Biolink]

what makes your info more reliable. and plus canards pars is a character created after the seed series was created. so in the anime there is no speak of him. the manga wasnt released till 3 months after.

tv series (oct 02 - sep 03) astray manga ( end of nov 03 - aug 04)

Kira was added to canards life to give the story some depth/ explaining canards past.

im sorry i cant find the info that says " your right" and "Im wrong"

and your still not proving anything to me that makes Heero or his Wing gundam/zero better than kira and his strike freedom.

so far, you basicly said that kira being the ultimate coordinator isnt different from a regular coordinator. so tell me what makes him the better than the other coordinators, it cant be the gundam, he doesnt have a military background, surely its not because of his eye or hair color....

what makes your info more reliable. and plus canards pars is a character created after the seed series was created. so in the anime there is no speak of him. the manga wasnt released till 3 months after.

tv series (oct 02 - sep 03) astray manga ( end of nov 03 - aug 04)

Kira was added to canards life to give the story some depth/ explaining canards past.

im sorry i cant find the info that says " your right" and "Im wrong"

Just because Canard was never mentioned(And I think Lowe Gear from the Manga had a cameo appearance in the anime once or twice)doesn't mean that it was never planned for him to be there(Or to show up later on).Basically he wasn't created only as a plot device.Heck Fon Spark from the Gundam 00F manga,isn't mentioned canically in the Anime,but that doesn't erase his existence in Universe.

and your still not proving anything to me that makes Heero or his Wing gundam/zero better than kira and his strike freedom.

1)When has this argument ever included Strike Freedom :huh

And I was basically given arguments as to why the battle wouldn't be as easy as the Kira nutt huggers(Not everybody just the extremists)thought it would be.

so far, you basicly said that kira being the ultimate coordinator isnt different from a regular coordinator. so tell me what makes him the better than the other coordinators, it cant be the gundam, he doesnt have a military background, surely its not because of his eye or hair color....

Absolutely nothing makes him better than a regular Coordinator besides his Plot Shield.He came out 100% as the Doctors intended him too and that's it.He isn't stronger or weaker than any other average Coordinator,there weren't any ulterior motives in his creation such as making him super strong or whatever.

Besides his uncanny Engineering and Programming ability,I don't see that much more that separates him from the average Coordinator.

[Boromir]

I'll voted for Kira assuming that he's out to kill, not hurt.

[Jf_kyori_2k4]

It's just unfair. Freedom is much more futuristic and much faster. On top of that, it is armed with more weapons than the Army.

exactly this isnt a fair comparison. its like comparing windows 98 to windows xp.
98 pwned in its time but xp would be it out because its new tech. I liked Heero more but Kira is the ultimate coordinator and freedom by itself could take out the US army (ok maybe not but strike Freedom with the Meteor system would.)

[Halcyon Days]

buster rifle can take out meteors but Wing Zero can't beat the US army either?

[Biolink]

exactly this isnt a fair comparison. its like comparing windows 98 to windows xp.
98 pwned in its time but xp would be it out because its new tech. I liked Heero more but Kira is the ultimate coordinator and freedom by itself could take out the US army (ok maybe not but strike Freedom with the Meteor system would.)

1)Just because Freedom has tons of weapons docked on it,doesn't mean it's automatically superior in terms of Technology.It just has more weapons and that's it.

Wing Zero has the Zero System which more or less predicts the future,and a bird mode.

Sans the Weapons I would say they are more or less even(And even then the single buster rifles are still more powerful than any of Freedom's weapons),but that would be because of Voltier(sp?) Lumiere which can make a year long trip from Venus to Earth in like a few months(And even then this thing doesn't help Freedom in battle,because Battles aren't fought in a straight line,and all the Lumiere gives it is Straight Line Speed).Wing Zero doesn't have anything like that,but as I mentioned its more or less a push.As far as I know Freedom doesn't have an AI capable of accurately predicting a future outcome of battle.

I think some of you need to be reminded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ro-NzZfXIs

With the Buster Rifles disconnected into two,on single blast they are stronger than any of Freedom's weapons.COMBINED,they can obliterate a colony in one shot.Not collapse the Colony from structural damage,but fully erase the colony.

@ 45 seconds(And you might want to check the rest out as well).It can fire that shot 3 times,but it can fire those smaller shots when the rifles are seperated as many times as it wants.


It's also one of the fastest suits in the Wing Universe(Taking liberties here considering this is a cross Universe comparison) so it isn't like Kira would be totally running circles around it

2)The Ultimate Coordinator literally means nothing.It doesn't mean Kira is stronger,or faster than other Coordinators.He is just the perfect aesthetic designer baby.His hair color came out right.

3)And Wing Zero wouldn't be able to defeat the US Army(Or any other Real world army for that matter)?

Wing Zero can destroy colonies.

[Jetstorm]

Interesting match up. Kira and Freedom has the speed advantage and I see him as a bit of a better pilot than Heero but his habit of disabling instead of outright killing may bite him in the ass.

Heero and Wing Zero are no slouches and it has more fire power so chances are that Freedom would get fucked up quite a lot. I think I'd give the edge to Freedom though.

[Zero0ne]

first, its not a good idea to compare gundams from different series because of factors such as technological differences unique to each series. for example: in gundam wing, the wing gundam zero is the most advanced moble suit in existance only rivaled by the epyon.
in gundam seed/seed destiny the freedom is the best moble suit with its brother unit the justice.
when comparing suits from different universes, you have to keep factors like this in mind.

hero - trained to be cold blooded soldier since he was young. along with being in perfect physical condition, he is intelligent, and a master with any moble suit. basically hero is a human with every aspect that has to do with being a soldier/assassin raised to near perfect, but he is still human so he is going to make mistakes. but should he ever fail, hero has no problem taking his own life to conceal his objectives.

kira - was never formally train in combat and he dislikes violence. there are few cases where he wanted to go into battle. because he is a coordinator his mental and physical qualities have been raised to the highest possible level. kira has been shown to be able to learn faster than regular coordinators. he also has the ability to go into seed mode which increases his reflexes and reaction time. again kira is also human and subject to mistakes.

wing gundam zero - the original gundam and ancestor to the other five gundams. its called a gundam because of the matterial used to create the armor, gundanium alloy. gundanium is a light metal that has high tolerance to heat and physical impact, but it is not indestructible. the power plant for the wing zero and all the other gundam is an ultra compact fusion reactor. which in short means the gundams have an unlimited power suppply, but in this universe the power plant doesnt power the thrusters. wing zero can only fly for as long as there is fuel. on to weapons, the zero has four weapons. the hammer head on its shield, two beam sabers, two machine vulcans, and the twin buster riffle. all the weapons are self explainitory, but i have to make somethings clear about the riffle. the riffle is not limited to three shot. and there is speculation about the modes of the riffle, normal, which functions as a regular beam riffle similar to that of the combined riffles of the strike freedom. burst, which is when it fires mutliple semi charged shots. and charged, which takes time to aim and charge, but the result is enough firepower to destroy objects several miles in size. finally the system which made the zero a gundam to fear, the zero system. the basic function of the zero system is to send combat data to the piolets brain, which would increase their reaction time and elliminate fear. its almost like a man made seed mode.
freedom gundam - the finest zaft moble suit at the time and was equiped with the NJammer cancelor, which allowed it to be powered by nuclear reactor. the matterial used for the freedom is a unspecified metal that is immune to physical damage and heat when a current is running through it. because of this, only beam weapons are effective against it. the freedom is powered by a ultra compact fission reactor. this provides near unlimited power. the reason its near unlimited is because it is possible to run low on power because of equipment such as phase shift armor, the thrusters and beam weapon attached to the gundam. now on to weapons, the freedom has a beam riffle,two railguns, and two beam cannons in the wings. all the weapons on the freedom is self explanitory. the highlight of the freedom would be its hiMat system, which enables it to manuver easily.

as for who would win, well in my opinion i think, that hero and the zero have the edge over the freedom, but if it was the strike freedom then thats another story. my reasons for hero and zero is that, basically the pilots, would lean to kira for the seed mode, but when adding the moble suits the zero system evens that factor out. in terms of moble suits both are the best in their respected universe, but if they were to go all out on eachother i think the zero would eventually take dowm the freedom. in long range combat, if the freedom went full burst and the zero used its charge riffle, then the zero would overpower the freedom. agility was a factor that most used to justify the freedoms dominace, but that only means that he good at moving around, in pure speed the zero would be at an advantage with the neo bird mode. in close combat, could go to either one so im not sure, but neither one would stand around to get hit with a beam saber.

[Biolink]

I'm curious to know as to why Strike Freedom would have the advantage over Heero in combat.

The Zero System not only sends combat data to the Pilots Brain,but it evaluates every potential move a Mobile Suit could make.Meaning the moment Kira mobilizes the Dragoons on Strike Freedom,the Zero System would make the adjustment,analyze and enter the weapons into the database,and then give the information to Heero,so he would know how to deal with them.

Whether or not he actually can deal with them would be slightly different,but with this information into his brain I wouldn't have too many doubts that he would have much trouble with them.It would be different if the Strike Freedom's DRAGOONS were controlled by Kira's mind,so that he would be able to counter the Zero System with unpredictability,but Kira's DRAGOONS are computer controlled.

As far as Speed,Strike Freedom is slower than Freedom.In Earth's atmosphere it can't use the DRAGOONS,and officially it had Hi-Mat taken away for Full Burst Mode(Kira spamming all weapons at once when he had Freedom=/=Full Burst Mode).

[NeoChaos]

sorry its been a minute since i been on....real simple- everything you say about the zero system is correct, its AI capabilitys are amazing, but they only work with the limitations of the mobile suite (wing zero custom) it doesnt give the mobile suit stronger nor does it make it faster, it basicly gives the pilot opportunities. meaning- strike freedom can fight above the limitations of the wing zero custom making your 'predictions" pointless

[Biolink]

You say that is if it would be easy for Strike Freedom to simply "Go beyond the limitations of the Zero System and Wing Zero".

Certainly as with all thing's it's possible for S.Freedom to win(If by some sheer luck Heero is drunk or something).

However it is at a Fire Power,Speed,Defense(To an extent),and even AI disadvantage if you want to go there.Speed would be amped up if you use Wing Zero Custom.

360 degrees of thrust vectoring with it's wings,and a much smaller mass than Freedom(Or Strike Freedom whichever you want to use,because it won't matter),and it clocks Second in overall speed from that Universe tied with Epyon and only behind the Deathscythe Hell and Deathscythe Custom iterations.So in a nutshell you have a smaller Mobile Suit zipping around with an extremely powerful weapon.Freedom and especially S.Freedom won't be able to catch it easily,and might even be on the run from it most of the time due to the sheer power disadvantage.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=9347&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

Plus it's not like Heero is a bad pilot in his own right.Most of the time he used Beam Sabers in battle,and even defeated Epyon which was a suit made exclusively for Melee combat.He only used the TBR rifles if the group was in trouble,but if he wanted too he could have done a whole lot worse thing's.

[NeoChaos]

defending those who give kira yamato new type abilities= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-1ecMnLWKE&feature=related
In this video it shows kira using new type like abilities to controll the dragoons (towards the end of the video) does this confirm he's a new type (I.D.K) but how else can you esplain the situation.

just to clear things up about heero destroying a colony (false) he destroyed a block of the colony that broke away and couldnt break up in the atmosphere. that piece was big in its self but it wasnt the entire colony.

[Biolink]

Lmao.

That scene was confirmed as a homage to when Amuro Ray(The 1st and arguably the greatest Gundam pilot ever) destroyed something between 12-15 Zakus in 3 minutes(Can't remember the exact number) using the original Rx-78-2 Gundam.Kira does 25 in two minutes using Strike Freedom(It was more like 21 in two minutes from what some guy over at www.Celestialbeing.net broke down in film.Not as impressive as what Amuro did,but still pretty cool nonetheless).

Besides that,maybe you were probably were right about the TBR rifle not completely destroying the Colony(Don't know what the fuck I was thinking ;P).I still fail to see how any Mobile Suit from CE would be able to deal with it,and for that Suits from other universes wouldn't be able to handle Wing Zero either(Unless you are one of a very select few,and no CE Mobile Suit would be included on that list).

[NeoChaos]

i cant remember to much about Amuro Ray (need to go back and do my home work).
so i wont speak of him much untill i watch that series over again.

Wing zero customs TBR are extremely powerfull, but most of his Power shots are against
non moving targets or targets with limited mobility...

Those TBR's are virtualy useless against a high mobility mobile suite ( S Freedom)

and if you want to use big boy weapons Strike Freedom will clean up with the meteor. if you watch some of the videos with him using it you can see mobility, speed, and power isnt a problem what so ever...lock-ons are fast, 2 extremly long beam saber, an arsenal of missiles, and limitless beam cannons. Its a beast kidd

[Biolink]

If that's the case Kira can't hit moving targets either,since he seems incapable of defeating worthwhile named Characters.He has trouble hitting with anything that actually can move(Doesn't mean he can't defeat it,but if the enemy doesn't get awestruck initially he can give Kira a hard time).

As for the METEOR.

Come on... :wink

Fucking huge,he only really shows it off against grunts,presumingly because anyone with skill and half a brain would be able to get manage against something of that size.Lastly don't forget that the TBR rifles have a very wide shot radius(I'm speaking of the separated rifles,not the combined rifle).If anything Kira is dead faster lugging around something of that ridiculous size.

Not saying that Heero doesn't also exploit grunts(Which were better than the CE grunts btw),but that argument works both ways.

Also Strike Freedom is not a high mobility suit.Destiny,and I.Justice(And there are more) now those are high mobility suits.It's not slow,but by any stretch it's not among the speedsters in Seed either.Freedom sure,but S.Freedom is severely limited on Earth,and in Space it HAS to deploy the Dragoons to use the Voltiuere Lumiere(sp?).It also doesn't have Hi-MaT anymore(Which is just a theory now,but is strongly supported.Theory is that this is because of the Dragoons).That was taken away for Full Burst mode.Full Burst Mode btw has nasty recoil.Kira uses S.Freedom's thrusters and the suit is STILL pushed back.

[Kevin01230]

but you have to take in consideration that Gundam wing was in AFTER COLONY, NOT COSMIC ERA which is a big difference in years of gap.

But if gundam wing was recreated in Cosmic era, it probably would be a tie, because wing gundam was limited in fighting because of the plot, but also because of the resources that the animators had, while seed had more modern tools that they could make the fighting more cool and more implying.

I personally think that Heero was a better pilot, as he is more mentally stable and concentrated in the battle, while you see Kira and the others in Seed looking back and forth at comrades, while fighting a hard opponet, and usually losing their life. Although I love seed and wing, i think that if wing was recreated in 2008 or 2009, some ppl in this forum might change their opinions of the 2 gundams and pilots, but because these 2 pilots and gundams were from 2 different eras, you cant really say zero is better, nor can you say freedom is better.

[Biolink]

Good post.Welcome to NF

[Basilikos]

Kira takes this. Being a coordinator (genetically enhanced human) his reflexes and ability to process information are much better than that of even the best normal human. Also take into account that his suit is faster, more agile, has an unlimited power source, and is more versatile than Wing Zero. Wing Zero has a lot of firepower but Heero is regular human and furthermore his Gundam is a lot slower than Freedom.

[NeoChaos]

i wouldnt call Heero a "Regular Human", alot of the things he endured physicaly and mentally showed that he was the best in his era...

but i do believe kira enhancments makes him physically stronger, faster, and smarter than Heero.

' i have more to right, be back soon"

[Biolink]

Kira takes this. Being a coordinator (genetically enhanced human) his reflexes and ability to process information are much better than that of even the best normal human. Also take into account that his suit is faster, more agile, has an unlimited power source, and is more versatile than Wing Zero. Wing Zero has a lot of firepower but Heero is regular human and furthermore his Gundam is a lot slower than Freedom.

Kira takes this. Being a coordinator (genetically enhanced human) his reflexes and ability to process information are much better than that of even the best normal human.

Except Heero is anything,but Normal.Even on the greatest human standards.The series(Specifically the manga and side stories)has gone out of its way to show us that it is anything,but written in stone that Coordinators always>Naturals.

so take into account that his suit is faster, more agile, has an unlimited power source, and is more versatile than Wing Zero.

Have you read any of the previous posts?Wing Zero is smaller,also has an unlimited power source(I'll get to this later),clocks the 2nd fastest Mobile suit in its Universe(Where the Mobile Suits power wise are slightly above Seed technology),and it has 360 degree thrust vectoring(In addition to its main booster,in its Wings it has little thrusters that can move the suit anywhere).

Versatility is a push if anything.It's not like you need to be very Versatile when your weapon on its lowest power setting can wipe out several Mobile suits at once.Freedom has a lot of weapons.Wing Zero doesn't NEED to have tons of crap slapped on it to be effective.Just it's two super weapons.

As to Freedom's power source,like I said I would get to earlier.Freedom has a THEORETICALLY limitless source of power,so the suit won't shut down.However if Kira just fires the weapons carelessly they still can run out of power because they don't have independent power on their own so regardless that point doesn't even matter.

Wing Zero also has limitless power(As the Wing Mobile Suits don't have Energy problms),and to top that off the Twin Buster Rifle has its own dedicated Nuclear Power source/Reactor,so it doesn't even have to think about recharging its weapon,besides when it fires on the most powerful Blast setting(And even then that's only a little lag time so the weapon can build energy and get more power).

Wing Zero has a lot of firepower

Yes

but Heero is regular human

Regular by your standards,but he could be easily mistaken for a Coordinator if he was in the CE Universe

and furthermore his Gundam is a lot slower than Freedom

Explain this to me.

Wing Zero clocks the 2nd fastest in its Universe tied with Epyon,and only behind Deathscythe Hell,and Deathscythe Hell Custom.It IS a freaking speedster.It has a smaller radius of movement since it isn't lugging around tons of weapons,and because it is a lot smaller in stature and weight than Strike Freedom.

Freedom has decent Mobility,but you are greatly overrating it.Its not a plodder,but its not exactly a speed demon either,at least compared to Wing Zero.

[Biolink]

i wouldnt call Heero a "Regular Human", alot of the things he endured physicaly and mentally showed that he was the best in his era...

but i do believe kira enhancments makes him physically stronger, faster, and smarter than Heero.

' i have more to right, be back soon"

Physical Strength no.Since when was Kira trained as a Child to fight and kill people.Just because he can overpower nerdy little Naturals like Sai in Gundam Seed?If Kira ever got into a physical altercation with Heero,he would be murdered.

Heero wasn't the one to catch a fever when he entered the Atmosphere.Entered the freaking Atmosphere and crash landed just with his Mobile Suit.Kira had the freaking War Ship absorbing most of the heat,and I think he had a Coolant.Heero had none of this.

Heero passed out,but he wasn't out of commission for long.Got up,and kept on moving.

So once again please try again.

Now Kira's body is more than likely immune to more diseases,but you didn't say that.

Faster?

In a foot race,reactions?

Foot Race,no.

Faster Reactions yeah I can give you that.

Book Smarts yes,but who cares?Heero doesn't even have to bother with reprogramming Operating Systems,so its a moot point.

[Basilikos]

also has an unlimited power source(I'll get to this later)
Proof?

clocks the 2nd fastest Mobile suit in its Universe
Wing Zero may be the fastest in its respective universe but that does not mean it is faster than Freedom which is from a completely different series.

(Where the Mobile Suits power wise are slightly above Seed technology),
Proof?

Versatility is a push if anything.It's not like you need to be very Versatile when your weapon on its lowest power setting can wipe out several Mobile suits at once.Freedom has a lot of weapons.Wing Zero doesn't NEED to have tons of crap slapped on it to be effective.Just it's two super weapons.
And what will Wing Zero fight with once it's buster rifles get destroyed? Once Kira sees how powerful the shots are he'll make the destruction of the buster rifles a top priority. It is seen numerous times throughout Gundam SEED that enemies are crippled by having their beam rifles, ship cannons, and other weapons themselves destroyed.

As to Freedom's power source,like I said I would get to earlier.Freedom has a THEORETICALLY limitless source of power,so the suit won't shut down.However if Kira just fires the weapons carelessly they still can run out of power because they don't have independent power on their own so regardless that point doesn't even matter.
Funny how just choose to ignore the fact that Freedom's power source is nearly unlimited and toss the fact over your shoulder. Kira doesn't fire carelessly and without reason. With Freedom's abilities he can strike dozens of targets at once.

Wing Zero also has limitless power(As the Wing Mobile Suits don't have Energy problms),
Wing's mobile suits are never stated to have limitless energy. And it would be a no limits fallacy to assume that just because they never showed energy problems in the show doesn't automatically mean the suits have infinite energy reserves.

Wing Zero clocks the 2nd fastest in its Universe tied with Epyon,and only behind Deathscythe Hell,and Deathscythe Hell Custom.It IS a freaking speedster.It has a smaller radius of movement since it isn't lugging around tons of weapons,and because it is a lot smaller in stature and weight than Strike Freedom.
See above. Just because Wing Zero is the fastest in it's universe doesn't mean it is automatically faster than Freedom which is from a different series. Also, the size of the suit doesn't necessarily tell you its speed. The size between Wing Zero and Freedom is hardly different.

Freedom has decent Mobility,but you are greatly overrating it.Its not a plodder,but its not exactly a speed demon either,at least compared to Wing Zero.
Prove to me that Wing Zero is faster than Freedom. Freedom is faster and far more agile and its weapons have no lag or charge time so it can get a lot of firepower out quickly.

Kira in the Freedom was dodging energy beams being fired from differently angles simultaneously. Even though he was surrounded by the "net" created by the beam fired from DRAGOONS and he still managed do dodge many of them. Does Heero in the Wing Zero have any feats comparable to this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q10kBY-4PFQ (The DRAGOONS are seen in this vid. Pay attention starting especially at 4:20. You also see the weapon destruction at 4:53 I was talking about earlier. Yzaks beam rifle gets destroyed by the shots fired by Clotho's Raider gundam. A move Kira is smart enough to pull off to cripple Wing Zero. There's more DRAGOON spamming at 5:02-6:30 and again Kira dodges the shots while being shot at from at least half a dozen angles simultaneously. Show me a feat of Heero doing something this impressive.

[NeoChaos]

Physical Strength no.Since when was Kira trained as a Child to fight and kill people.Just because he can overpower nerdy little Naturals like Sai in Gundam Seed?If Kira ever got into a physical altercation with Heero,he would be murderede


Physical strength yes, kira didnt have to be trained to become strong, it's the way he was born, along with the rest of the coordinators, Kira vs Athrun (Strike gundam vs Aegis) Aegis latched on to the strike 'which had the cockpit exposed" then self destructed , blowing up both gundams with kira stuck in the middle of them..........Episode 30-31 GS.

heero cant match that srry

[Biolink]

[quote]Proof?

The Mobile Suits in Wing never run out of Energy.Unlike the Mobile Suits in Seed especially the earlier Gundams such as Strike,and Impulse that have batteries.


Wing Zero may be the fastest in its respective universe but that does not mean it is faster than Freedom which is from a completely different series.

I do believe and have said that Wing Zero is faster,but you also said that Freedom was faster(Without giving any proof).

Two-way street much?


Proof?

Planet Defensers (Bubble beam shield) can shrug off anything aside from around a fully charged TBR blast.They even shrugged off Deathscythe Hell's beam scythe which has been shown to work underwater.They also shrugged off the Vayeate's Beam Cannon,which is as strong as a Buster Rifle.

SUPER HEATED PLASMA

A single Buster Rifle btw is more powerful than any individual CE weapon.It fires super heated plasma(Basically the stuff that our Sun and Stars are made out of),and would have little trouble punching through anything in Seed

No energy known energy issues that involving powering its weapons

Gundanium Alloy,which has been shown a few times to shrug off Beam shots,and it is tons lighter than Phase-Shift and the other material

Mobile Dolls

Artificial Intelligence technology>>>>>>>>>>>>

And what will Wing Zero fight with once it's buster rifles get destroyed? Once Kira sees how powerful the shots are he'll make the destruction of the buster rifles a top priority. It is seen numerous times throughout Gundam SEED that enemies are crippled by having their beam rifles, ship cannons, and other weapons themselves destroyed.

Taking huge liberties here and assuming that they would get destroyed in the first place(As if Heero would let that happen).Not to mention that with the Zero System backing Heero up,he'd know every potential move Kira could make(Assuming that Heero even needs to get that close to the point where Kira could destroy the rifles,which he probably wouldn't).And by that same token Freedom is also useless if its rifles get destroyed.It can't exactly maneuver the other weapons around,like it can using its rifles.


Funny how just choose to ignore the fact that Freedom's power source is nearly unlimited and toss the fact over your shoulder. Kira doesn't fire carelessly and without reason. With Freedom's abilities he can strike dozens of targets at once.

Theoretically unlimited.It can still run out of power if it uses its weapons carelessly,because the Weapons are powered by the Nuclear energy source from Freedom.All its energy source does is ensure that the Mobile Suit won't run out of energy,like the earlier Mobile Suits in Seed did,so the Phase Shift protection will never leave.Doesn't mean much if your weapons still run out of energy,but it's nice as insurance.Full Burst Mode,btw would be ineffective.It's only effective against masses of Mobile Suits.Against one Mobile Suit,unless you are a Super Grunt or totally blind you can see it coming from a mile away.It has to stop,focus all of its weapons,fire all of the weapons,and then deal with absolutely horrible recoil.Kira uses Freedom's thrusters to slightly hamper the recoil effect,and it STILL has nasty recoil.


Wing's mobile suits are never stated to have limitless energy. And it would be a no limits fallacy to assume that just because they never showed energy problems in the show doesn't automatically mean the suits have infinite energy reserves.

My proof is the Anime.In 50 or so Episodes,the words low energy wasn't even thought about

What would Energy for Wing Zero even matter though?Wing Zero does not operate like Freedom.Freedom's weapons are connected to its nuclear energy source.The Twin Buster Rifle has its own dedicated energy source,which produces unlimited energy.Individually Wing Zero could operate on itself long enough even if it didn't have "Theoretically unlimited Energy" like Freedom did.It hardly has anything else special on it.

If you do want to go there with energy,Wing Zero's energy source is an Ultra Compact Fusion Reactor.Yep.Nuclear Energy.

See above. Just because Wing Zero is the fastest in it's universe doesn't mean it is automatically faster than Freedom which is from a different series. Also, the size of the suit doesn't necessarily tell you its speed. The size between Wing Zero and Freedom is hardly different.

See earlier.

As to the sizes

Wing Zero

8 tons empty

16.7 Meters tall

Freedom

18.03 Meters tall

71.5 Tons equipped

The Wing Zero has an empty weight of 8 tons, while the Freedom has a fully-loaded weight of 71.5 tons. Even if the S-Freedom were to be emptied to the same loadout that Wing Zero has for the weighing processes, the Wing Zero would still beat it by well over 40 tons.


Prove to me that Wing Zero is faster than Freedom. Freedom is faster and far more agile and its weapons have no lag or charge time so it can get a lot of firepower out quickly.

Sure

The top speeds of the Freedom has not yet been established - much like most of the science in CE has yet to be explained in a way that makes sense. However, the Wing Zero has 88150 kg total thrust - tied for second fastest in the old system of Wing's speed measurement. And, unfortunately, if the Freedom was somehow able to match that speed... it wouldn't be nearly as manuverable because it's toting around more than 4-5 times the mass of the Wing Zero - if not more.

The BoP is on you now to say something other than "I believe Freedom Gundam is faster,because it has l33t h@x abilities,and it is in my Fave 5 <3"


I've given you examples in two posts so far(Not to mention whatever I may have written on the previous pages) of why I believe Wing Zero is faster and you've given zero.

What does it matter if Kira can get a lot of fire power out quickly?On low power setting,the Buster Rifles have no lag time and are fuck tons stronger than any weapon that is equipped on Freedom.



Kira in the Freedom was dodging energy beams being fired from differently angles simultaneously. Even though he was surrounded by the "net" created by the beam fired from DRAGOONS and he still managed do dodge many of them. Does Heero in the Wing Zero have any feats comparable to this?

[quote]http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q10kBY-4PFQ (The DRAGOONS are seen in this vid. Pay attention starting especially at 4:20. You also see the weapon destruction at 4:53 I was talking about earlier. Yzaks beam rifle gets destroyed by the shots fired by Clotho's Raider gundam. A move Kira is smart enough to pull off to cripple Wing Zero. There's more DRAGOON spamming at 5:02-6:30 and again Kira dodges the shots while being shot at from at least half a dozen angles simultaneously. Show me a feat of Heero doing something this impressive.

There are no weapons the equivalent of Dragoons in Wing(Save for one time Heero briefly modified Mercurious's Planet Defensers and turned them into remote weapons),so it's just not possible by that standard.I'll have to rewatch or ask one of my sources if he's dodges massive beam spam,but I wouldn't doubt he has.And for the record the Zero System would make fighting DRAGOONS possible as well,and even then it's not like Heero is a bad pilot.He's done some amazing thing's in his own right.


Has Kira ever fought Mobile Dolls which are not driven by human limit(Thing's such as G-Forces,Emotion,etc...),and have close to 100% shot accuracy?

Didn't think so.

[Cooli]

I say WZ would win

[Biolink]

Physical strength yes, kira didnt have to be trained to become strong, it's the way he was born, along with the rest of the coordinators, Kira vs Athrun (Strike gundam vs Aegis) Aegis latched on to the strike 'which had the cockpit exposed" then self destructed , blowing up both gundams with kira stuck in the middle of them..........Episode 30-31 GS.

heero cant match that srry

Ummmm no.

It doesn't matter if he was born Coordinator or not.If he has never trained in fighting before he will get beaten by Heero,who is essentially an assassin that has been trained from Birth.

The Manga has gone out of its way to show us that Coordinators are not always better than Naturals.One of the manga Coordinators,Elijah Kiel is a Coordinator who was blessed with intelligence,but physically is no stronger than a Natural.His intelligence is the only thing that seperates him from Naturals,but yet and still he is still considered a Coordinator.

If you want to argue anybody that might be able to keep up,at least argue somebody that was a trained warrior like like Athrun or Shinn.Otherwise you are just full of shit IMO.

As to the Self-Destruction sequence thing.

It took a Magical Cockpit shutter,and Lowe Gear to be at the right place,at the right time for Kira to survive.He had a high fever and was rushed to Reverened Malkio's.If Lowe Gear wasn't there,Kira does not exist.

[Basilikos]

The Mobile Suits in Wing never run out of Energy.
No limits fallacy.

I do believe and have said that Wing Zero is faster,but you also said that Freedom was faster(Without giving any proof).

Two-way street much?
If you payed attention to the video I linked it is pretty obvious that Freedom is faster and far more agile. Since I've proved proof would you care to give me some links to back up your own statements as well?

and would have little trouble punching through anything in Seed
Assuming the blast lands which it won't. I already proved this is the vid I posted. Kira can dodge numerous shots being fired from many directions at once.

No energy known energy issues that involving powering its weapons
Again, no limits fallacy on your part.

Gundanium Alloy,which has been shown a few times to shrug off Beam shots,and it is tons lighter than Phase-Shift and the other material
True, Gundanium alloy has been shown to be resistance to beam attacks but that does not make impervious by any means. If it were, then Epyon and Wing Zero would have been incapable of harming each other.

Taking huge liberties here and assuming that they would get destroyed in the first place(As if Heero would let that happen).Not to mention that with the Zero System backing Heero up,he'd know every potential move Kira could make(Assuming that Heero even needs to get that close to the point where Kira could destroy the rifles,which he probably wouldn't).And by that same token Freedom is also useless if its rifles get destroyed.It can't exactly maneuver the other weapons around,like it can using its rifles.
While the zero system does allow for some form of pre cognition, Wing Zero has yet to show the speed to compete against Freedom. Pre cog means little if you can't react.

Theoretically unlimited.It can still run out of power if it uses its weapons carelessly,
Which Kira has never done.

All its energy source does is ensure that the Mobile Suit won't run out of energy,
While it hasn't proven to have absolutely infinite energy it is certainly more credible than your statement about Wing Zero. The nature and energy of Gundam power supply was never even addressed in Gundam Wing. In SEED it is stated that Freedom has a nuclear battery with supposedly limitless energy. The amount of power Freedom and Wing Zero have is unclear and is moot since the battle shouldn't take more than 20 minutes.

like the earlier Mobile Suits in Seed did,so the Phase Shift protection will never leave.Doesn't mean much if your weapons still run out of energy,but it's nice as insurance.Full Burst Mode,btw would be ineffective.It's only effective against masses of Mobile Suits.Against one Mobile Suit,unless you are a Super Grunt or totally blind you can see it coming from a mile away.It has to stop,focus all of its weapons,fire all of the weapons,and then deal with absolutely horrible recoil.Kira uses Freedom's thrusters to slightly hamper the recoil effect,and it STILL has nasty recoil.
Kira has never used Full Burst mode against a single opponent.

My proof is the Anime.In 50 or so Episodes,the words low energy wasn't even thought about
Again, no limits fallacy. Please post some videos or links or something to prove this please.

Wing Zero does not operate like Freedom.Freedom's weapons are connected to its nuclear energy source.
Yep.

The Twin Buster Rifle has its own dedicated energy source,which produces unlimited energy.
Proof? It has shown the ability to be able to fire off many shots in battle but where's the proof about it's energy source being unlimited. Is this stated? And where?

Individually Wing Zero could operate on itself long enough even if it didn't have "Theoretically unlimited Energy" like Freedom did.It hardly has anything else special on it.
I don't understand what you're saying here.

If you do want to go there with energy,Wing Zero's energy source is an Ultra Compact Fusion Reactor.Yep.Nuclear Energy.
Proof? I have showed you how agile and fast the Freedom is in the vid I posted. Give me proof of this claim please.


As to the sizes

Wing Zero

8 tons empty

16.7 Meters tall

Freedom

18.03 Meters tall

71.5 Tons equipped

The Wing Zero has an empty weight of 8 tons, while the Freedom has a fully-loaded weight of 71.5 tons. Even if the S-Freedom were to be emptied to the same loadout that Wing Zero has for the weighing processes, the Wing Zero would still beat it by well over 40 tons.
Care to post the source of this data? Or is this Gundam data mentioned in the shows?

The top speeds of the Freedom has not yet been established - much like most of the science in CE has yet to be explained in a way that makes sense. However, the Wing Zero has 88150 kg total thrust - tied for second fastest in the old system of Wing's speed measurement. And, unfortunately, if the Freedom was somehow able to match that speed... it wouldn't be nearly as manuverable because it's toting around more than 4-5 times the mass of the Wing Zero - if not more.
You have yet to provide a source for all these claims you are making. I posted a video supporting my claims straight from the Gundam SEED anime. I would ask that you do the same.

The BoP is on you now to say something other than "I believe Freedom Gundam is faster,because it has l33t h@x abilities,and it is in my Fave 5 <3"
I have already shown the speed and agility of Freedom from a credible source, the anime itself. You have yet to do this. Instead you have been making claims and have neglected to site a source for your claims.

I've given you examples in two posts so far(Not to mention whatever I may have written on the previous pages) of why I believe Wing Zero is faster and you've given zero.
You can post all the data and statistics you want, no one has to believe it until you cite from a credible source. Currently, you have yet to cite from any source. If you have already done so on previous pages then please post the links for me to see.

What does it matter if Kira can get a lot of fire power out quickly?On low power setting,the Buster Rifles have no lag time and are fuck tons stronger than any weapon that is equipped on Freedom.
On the buster rifles' lowest setting, huh? Could you post something to show the destructive capabilities of the buster rifles on lowest setting? I'm skeptical of this claim, just like your previous ones as you have yet to show footage from the Gundam Wing anime supporting your claims.

and even then it's not like Heero is a bad pilot.He's done some amazing thing's in his own right.
I never said Heero's a bad pilot, but he can't really hold a candle to Kira's reflexes and speed. If Heero has some comparable feats, then by all means post them please.

Has Kira ever fought Mobile Dolls which are not driven by human limit(Thing's such as G-Forces,Emotion,etc...),and have close to 100% shot accuracy?
Where was it stated that Mobile Dolls have 100% accuracy? Please please please provide some proof and evidence already.

[Boromir]

As much as i dislike SEED compared to everything UC, Freedom would murder Wing Zero.

[Biolink]

[quote]If you payed attention to the video I linked it is pretty obvious that Freedom is faster and far more agile. Since I've proved proof would you care to give me some links to back up your own statements as well?


In relation to what?We have no idea how fast the Mobile Suits in Seed move,and it would be ridiculous to think as such.Animation<Statistics

I love how you use the No Limits Fallacy Arguments.Heero has never been shown to dodge Beam Spam so that doesn't mean he CAN'T do it.I gotta video for you at the end btw :wink

the very basic formla is:
(Force) = (mass) x (acceleration)
f = ma
f/m = a



So basically the less mass you have (the less you weigh) the faster you'll accelerate.And of course the more force you have the more acceleration you have. I imagine acceleration would play a huge role since dodging and attacking generally require changes in direction in which acceleration plays the key role. Infact when generally doing any sort of movement, the higher your acceleration is, the faster your speed will rise (or fall).

Under a rough assumption that Wing Zero has a mass equal to half that of Freedom, F would need a force (thrust) output twice that of WZ's in order to match acceleration. If Wz is 1/3 the mass of SF, SF needs an output equal to three times as much.

And also this doesn't factor in Wing Zero's wings,which have been proven to have thrust vectoring in 360 degrees


Which Kira has never done.

True


While it hasn't proven to have absolutely infinite energy it is certainly more credible than your statement about Wing Zero. The nature and energy of Gundam power supply was never even addressed in Gundam Wing. In SEED it is stated that Freedom has a nuclear battery with supposedly limitless energy. The amount of power Freedom and Wing Zero have is unclear and is moot since the battle shouldn't take more than 20 minutes.

I'll get to this later


Kira has never used Full Burst mode against a single opponent.

Based on your post,I assumed that is what you meant.

With Freedom's abilities he can strike dozens of targets at once.

Why would striking dozens of targets mean anything,if he's only going against 1 target?You mentioned it first.Hey my mistake if you didn't mean Full Burst Mode,but that was the logical assumption IMO,for you to even mention it in the first place


Again, no limits fallacy. Please post some videos or links or something to prove this please.

You find it or watch the anime yourself.Wing Mobile Suits have never had energy problems.ALL the Wing Mobile suits work off of Ultracompact fusion reactors,which is Nuclear Energy.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/index.htm

Shuffle through that and look at the Powerplant for each Mobile Suit.Prepare to be amazed.


Proof? It has shown the ability to be able to fire off many shots in battle but where's the proof about it's energy source being unlimited. Is this stated? And where?

Wing Zero models,and:

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/endlesswaltz/xxxg-00w0.htm

Powerplant: ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 3732 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 88150 kg total

Plus the Mecha Talk forums.Go over their and ask for yourself.Most of this stuff is verbatim stuff that I got from the experts over there.All my shit is legit.These numbers aren't just coming out of my ass

But hey.

Stay misinformed if you want to.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Even if lets say hypothetically speaking,Wing Zero's weapons were all powered by its energy source.Because Wing Zero has virtually nothing special on it aside from the Twin Buster Rifle(Which has its own power source) if the battle did drag on that would assure that at the least,Wing Zero's regular weapons would not run out of power.But even in that instance Wing Zero's beam sabers do not run off the power from the Mobile Suit.They have little batteries of their own.

Proof? I have showed you how agile and fast the Freedom is in the vid I posted. Give me proof of this claim please.

Powerplant: ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 3732 kW

Care to post the source of this data? Or is this Gundam data mentioned in the shows?

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/endlesswaltz/xxxg-00w0.htm

It's never exactly mentioned in the show,but compared to a Mobile Suit(Gundam F-91) that is similar in stature is usually how the Experts weigh Wing Zero.Keep in mind that Gundanium Alloy is likely lighter than the Lunar Alloy that F-91 is made out of.

Empty weight is the suit without any fuel,Ammo,Beam sabers,or the Twin Buster Rifle.Wing Zero's wings are already counted into the empty weight,since the Wings are fixed on the Gundam.So really it's Fuel, Ammo, Beam sabers, Buster Rifle.

Fuel can't be anymore than 3/4 the weight of the suit especially since fuel is in the legs and toros I'd actually say it'd be less than half the weight so 3 tons of fuel, which is still A LOT. Ammo for Machine cannon ammo, which is likely 1 or 2 tons considering the short lived use of vulcans and secondary weapons. Probably at the biggest caliber and that's pushing it, 60mm. We'll average it.

Beam sabers would be pretty light. They work through a mini battery so I'd say 1/2 ton.

TBR is where the bulk of the weight would come I would think. You could estimate them to be 1/2 to 3/4 the mass and/or size of the Wing Zero. Once again that'd be 4 to 6 tons. Average

8+3+1.5+0.5+5 = 18 tons is around what I would think a fully equipped Wing would weigh.

Even if I bumped the weight to 25 tons or so being generous,that wouldn't come close to scratching the 71.5 tons that Freedom weighs.The suit wouldn't get 40 or 50 tons heavier only by Fuel,Bullets,the Twin Buster Rifle,and the Beam Sabers.It would take MUCH more than that.

You have yet to provide a source for all these claims you are making. I posted a video supporting my claims straight from the Gundam SEED anime. I would ask that you do the same.

www.mahq.net
www.mechatalk.net


I have already shown the speed and agility of Freedom from a credible source, the anime itself. You have yet to do this. Instead you have been making claims and have neglected to site a source for your claims.


You can post all the data and statistics you want, no one has to believe it until you cite from a credible source. Currently, you have yet to cite from any source. If you have already done so on previous pages then please post the links for me to see.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/endlesswaltz/xxxg-00w0.htm

All of those numbers are officially from the Models btw.


On the buster rifles' lowest setting, huh? Could you post something to show the destructive capabilities of the buster rifles on lowest setting? I'm skeptical of this claim, just like your previous ones as you have yet to show footage from the Gundam Wing anime supporting your claims.

I do have that for you:

Keep in mind that this is the Anime Version of Wing Zero,as opposed to Endless Waltz version,but the only difference was,was that the Anime version had a Neo-Bird mode(It could turn into a Mobile Armor),and Endless waltz didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ro-NzZfXIs

A lil beam spam from 02-10(At the beginning)

Rolling Buster:

20 seconds-25 seconds

Individual Buster Rifle Rifle Fire(Low power setting):

35 seconds-38 seconds

Twin Buster Rifle Fire

45-50 seconds

Individual Rifle Fire(Low power setting)

1:13-1:16(Do you see even how on low power setting,the radius of the shots?And these are the "weaker" shots of the rifle).

Feel free to watch the rest of the video,to see more.There's a Rolling Buster,a shot of Muercurious's Planet Defenesers blocking a TBR shot,some Heero vs Zech's footage,and close to a fully powered shot at the end,when Heero was falling through Atmosphere.

But did you see how when the Rifles weren't connected together it had no lag time inbetween shots AND at times the shots were potent enough to take out 2-3 Mobile Suits at once






I never said Heero's a bad pilot, but he can't really hold a candle to Kira's reflexes and speed. If Heero has some comparable feats, then by all means post them please.

Video.Plus if he used the Zero System,he wouldn't need to have Coordinator reflexes.The Zero System is like Pseudo-Newtype ability.He'd know every potential move Kira could make,before he even makes them,so his Coordinator Reflexes would be moot.

Where was it stated that Mobile Dolls have 100% accuracy? Please please please provide some proof and evidence already.

Close to 100% accuracy.Not 100%.More like 85-90%,with only the remaining 10-15% being the Gundam pilots.It's a computer,so it isn't driven by thing's such as Human Eyesight(Accuracy),Emotion,G-Forces which can really hurt the human body,and they have freakish reaction ability,etc...


Only the 5 Gundam Pilots were able to even fight them,and even then earlier on their were instances where they were almost killed by the Mobile Dolls.One of the the reasons later on behind why they were fighting was to get rid of Mobile Dolls,because in war sacrifice is needed in order to stop war,but Artificial Intelligence is no way to go about it,because nobody would ever lose anything.


I'll have to get back to some of your questions as I may have deleted them trying to quote,and I don't feel like going back,so feel free to reply.


As much as i dislike SEED compared to everything UC, Freedom would murder Wing Zero.

Wing isn't even Universal Century.

[Boromir]

Wing isn't even Universal Century.

Yeah, i really dont like After Colony either. But if you put Wing Zero's attacks and skills just dont vary as much as Freedom's (like the multi-targetting and the wings of light).

Heero would have to get a direct hit with his super-cannon. Kira could just shoot all over the place until hitting him.

[Biolink]

Yeah, i really dont like After Colony either. But if you put Wing Zero's attacks and skills just dont vary as much as Freedom's (like the multi-targetting and the wings of light).

Heero would have to get a direct hit with his super-cannon. Kira could just shoot all over the place until hitting him.

Wings of Light=Voltiere Lumiere(spelling?)

Which is pretty useless and not made for battle.Voltiere Lumiere(At least Freedom's version) was made for straight line Speed,able to make a year long trip from Venus in only 3 or so months(Provided that Freedom doesn't stop).It was also obviously has some artistic points,able to make fanboys slob at the mouth(You aren't a fanboy so I'm not calling you one of those people).

Shinn's Destiny had a version that was made for battle(I believe he was the Voltiere Lumiere and Mirage Colloid Particles IIRC),but it isn't the same as Freedom's version which is made specifically for straight line travel.

Multi-Targeting?


It's only 1 Mobile Suit.The Muilt-Targeting thing is only effective against a Mass of Mobile Suits close to each other.

If Kira shot wildly all over the place 1 of 3 thing would probably happen

1)Freedom would have to soon recharge its weapons(Leaving ample time for Zero to go on the offense)

2)The recoil would be bad(Leaving ample time for Wing Zero to go on the offensive)

3)The most likely scenario,Wing Zero sends all of the data and information to Heero,he dodges whatever shots Freedom shoots,and then destroys Freedom.

Individually none of Freedom's weapons come even close to the fire power of a SINGLE buster rifle so I'm thinking firepower is kind of moot as well.

And I've already established that Freedom is not as fast as Wing Zero.It would take 3 times the amount of thrust that Wing Zero has for it to be able to catch up.The only way that would be possible would be using the Wings of Light(Voltiere Lumiere),but Voltiere Lumiere is SPECIFICALLY made for straight line speed.It's effectiveness would drastically decrease,if the effect was even noticeable at all because in a fight you are rarely stationary.Freedom out thrusting Wing Zero just isn't going to happen.Perhaps if it was 50 tons lighter and had Destiny's version you could make that argument.

It's useless the way I see it.Unless you plan on traveling from Earth to the end of the milky way or something.

if you want to talk about anything talk about Freedom's Hi-MaT.The Wing thrusters make it capable of impressive maneuvering,but Wing Zero already has that.It's Wings has 360 degrees of thrust vectoring,so it just as impressive,if not even moreso than Hi-MaT.

[Basilikos]

In relation to what?We have no idea how fast the Mobile Suits in Seed move,and it would be ridiculous to think as such.Animation<Statistics
I looked over the data for both Freedom and Wing Zero on that site and no where is the top speed for either of them listed. Judging by feats, however, what Kira has show to do with his Freedom (dodging shots from many directions at once) is certainly much more impressive than what Heero in the Wing Zero has done.


the very basic formla is:
(Force) = (mass) x (acceleration)
f = ma
f/m = a

So basically the less mass you have (the less you weigh) the faster you'll accelerate.And of course the more force you have the more acceleration you have. I imagine acceleration would play a huge role since dodging and attacking generally require changes in direction in which acceleration plays the key role. Infact when generally doing any sort of movement, the higher your acceleration is, the faster your speed will rise (or fall).

Under a rough assumption that Wing Zero has a mass equal to half that of Freedom, F would need a force (thrust) output twice that of WZ's in order to match acceleration. If Wz is 1/3 the mass of SF, SF needs an output equal to three times as much.

And also this doesn't factor in Wing Zero's wings,which have been proven to have thrust vectoring in 360 degrees
Just because they have different weight doesn't automatically mean one is faster than the other. Also, the weight of Wing Zero with all it's armory is not listed on its data page while Freedom's page has its weight with all armaments listed. You can't compare their weights since we don't know how much Wing Zero weighs with all it's weaponry on board.

You find it or watch the anime yourself.
You are arguing in Wing Zero's favor so the burden of proof is on you.

Wing Mobile Suits have never had energy problems.ALL the Wing Mobile suits work off of Ultracompact fusion reactors,which is Nuclear Energy.
Judging from Wing Zero's data page (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/endlesswaltz/xxxg-00w0.htm) from mahq.net, it says that its power supply is an "ultracompact fusion reactor". No where does it say the power supply is nuclear or limitless. Whereas on Freedom's data page (http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm) under techincal and historical notes it says Freedom can "function for a nearly unlimited amount of time." It does not make a mention about unlimited energy anywhere on Wing Zero's page.

Plus the Mecha Talk forums.Go over their and ask for yourself.Most of this stuff is verbatim stuff that I got from the experts over there.All my shit is legit.These numbers aren't just coming out of my ass

But hey.

Stay misinformed if you want to.
Keep in mind that it is you who is arguing for Wing Zero. The burden up proof is on you, not me.

It's never exactly mentioned in the show,but compared to a Mobile Suit(Gundam F-91) that is similar in stature is usually how the Experts weigh Wing Zero.Keep in mind that Gundanium Alloy is likely lighter than the Lunar Alloy that F-91 is made out of.
You are comparing Wing Zero to a Gundam from a completely different series. Comparing the stature of two Gundams from entirely different series to determine their weight is just speculation.

Fuel can't be anymore than 3/4 the weight of the suit especially since fuel is in the legs and toros I'd actually say it'd be less than half the weight so 3 tons of fuel, which is still A LOT. Ammo for Machine cannon ammo, which is likely 1 or 2 tons considering the short lived use of vulcans and secondary weapons. Probably at the biggest caliber and that's pushing it, 60mm. We'll average it.

Beam sabers would be pretty light. They work through a mini battery so I'd say 1/2 ton.

TBR is where the bulk of the weight would come I would think. You could estimate them to be 1/2 to 3/4 the mass and/or size of the Wing Zero. Once again that'd be 4 to 6 tons. Average

8+3+1.5+0.5+5 = 18 tons is around what I would think a fully equipped Wing would weigh.

Even if I bumped the weight to 25 tons or so being generous,that wouldn't come close to scratching the 71.5 tons that Freedom weighs.The suit wouldn't get 40 or 50 tons heavier only by Fuel,Bullets,the Twin Buster Rifle,and the Beam Sabers.It would take MUCH more than that.
This is all pure speculation on your part. You are making assumptions on the weight of Wing Zero's equipment when the weight of each armament is carries is not given on the mahq website.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ro-NzZfXIs

A lil beam spam from 02-10(At the beginning)

Rolling Buster:

20 seconds-25 seconds

Individual Buster Rifle Rifle Fire(Low power setting):

35 seconds-38 seconds

Twin Buster Rifle Fire

45-50 seconds

Individual Rifle Fire(Low power setting)

1:13-1:16(Do you see even how on low power setting,the radius of the shots?And these are the "weaker" shots of the rifle).

Feel free to watch the rest of the video,to see more.There's a Rolling Buster,a shot of Muercurious's Planet Defenesers blocking a TBR shot,some Heero vs Zech's footage,and close to a fully powered shot at the end,when Heero was falling through Atmosphere.

But did you see how when the Rifles weren't connected together it had no lag time inbetween shots AND at times the shots were potent enough to take out 2-3 Mobile Suits at once
That's a lot of firepower. But where in that video does it say that Wing Zero was using its buster rifles on low power setting? I see him destroying the enemies with little lag time between shots but there's no evidence that it was on its lowest power setting.

And as for Heero dodging the shots from the beginning, they were all coming from one direction. Whereas Kira was surrounded (360 degrees) and being shot at from devices that buzz around at high speed while continuing to shoot and change their direction and location. Effectively creating a net of beams and Kira was dodging all this.

Video.Plus if he used the Zero System,he wouldn't need to have Coordinator reflexes.The Zero System is like Pseudo-Newtype ability.He'd know every potential move Kira could make,before he even makes them,so his Coordinator Reflexes would be moot.
Based on the description of the Zero System on mahq, it provides a form of pre-cog. But what feats has anyone who used the Zero System done that compares to Kira's feat of dodging those DRAGOONs? Pre-cog is useful but it won't work well if you can't react in time.

Close to 100% accuracy.Not 100%.More like 85-90%,with only the remaining 10-15% being the Gundam pilots.It's a computer,so it isn't driven by thing's such as Human Eyesight(Accuracy),Emotion,G-Forces which can really hurt the human body,and they have freakish reaction ability,etc...
Again, it's been years since I've seen Gundam Wing so the burden of proof is upon you to show me a clip from the anime where its says mobile dolls have 100% accuracy.

[Red Zaku]

No limits fallacy.

So what is a fallacy about MS with unlimited power? Both the S-Freedom, and Wing Zero have dedicated Nuclear reactors which serve to power the suit. Though whereas the S-Freedom also recharges the weapons, there is strong evidence to suggest Wing Zero's TBR actually has it's own dedicated Nuclear Reactor, much like the G-BRD from the Universal Century. This evidence is more heavily discussed in the following topic on Mechatalk the forums of MAHQ. http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=6996&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Just because they have different weight doesn't automatically mean one is faster than the other. Also, the weight of Wing Zero with all it's armory is not listed on its data page while Freedom's page has its weight with all armaments listed.

Of course you can still make a reasonable guess based on several factors of weight increases taken from mobile suits of comparable size and weight. F-91 being the closest to Wing Zero in both categories it actually weighs only one metric ton less then Zero. Hence we can now make reasonable conclusions on the weight of the Wing Zero putting it about 18 metric tons based on some fairly good estimates taken from the same argument on GameFaq's.
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=2000119&topic=43286860&page=29

You can't compare their weights since we don't know how much Wing Zero weighs with all it's weaponry on board.

But we can estimate it's weight based on the increase in total weight on an MS like F-91 which is incredibly close to Zero in both height, and weight. Also I feel the mobility issue can be cleared up by the fact Wing Zero's angle wings not only provide amazing stability in melee combat but allow for 360 degrees of thrust vectoring a trait lacked by the S-Freedom, and even the original Freedom. The proof for this claim can be found in the following topic on mechatalk. http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=9347&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20&sid=78757d40c41e44321f748454e7f66748

Judging from Wing Zero's data page from mahq.net, it says that its power supply is an "ultracompact fusion reactor". No where does it say the power supply is nuclear or limitless.

Fusion is a nuclear reaction. x.x It's the same type of reaction which powers our sun and is also seen displayed in Spider Man II. Essentially the compact Fusion reactor Doc Oc was building is what's powering mecha in UC, AC, AW and Turn A. For a more detailed explanation of Nuclear Fusion please see the following link. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/NucEne/fusion.html

Whereas on Freedom's data page under techincal and historical notes it says Freedom can "function for a nearly unlimited amount of time." It does not make a mention about unlimited energy anywhere on Wing Zero's page.

>.> It says this because the S-Freedom uses the same reactor as the Destiny Gundam. This means that like the Destiny unit it could theoretically consume more Deuteron Power then it's nuclear reactor can replace thus causing it to run out of power. That happening to the Destiny has been retconned however, so the Destiny doesn't lose power in that fight vs. Kira. However, the principal remains the same, and there is still a potential for it lose power.

Keep in mind that it is you who is arguing for Wing Zero. The burden up proof is on you, not me.

Ok, well here's another interesting note the Wing Zero's Twin Buster Rifle in double barrel configuration can fire a beam up to 150 meters wide. That is barely a fraction of what gets shown in the anime. That source comes directly from Wing Zero's technical manual's and is mentioned in this topic on MechaTalk. http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=8254

You are comparing Wing Zero to a Gundam from a completely different series. Comparing the stature of two Gundams from entirely different series to determine their weight is just speculation.

No, it's a valid theory based on evidence. It holds more weight then just blind speculation because it's making a legitimate comparison between two units of similar height, and similar load out.

That's a lot of firepower. But where in that video does it say that Wing Zero was using its buster rifles on low power setting?

The Wing Zero has variable spread settings just like a UC VSBR or G-BRD. The idea is a wide burst will contain a lot more of a punch enabling heavy damage to be dealt in a single shot to a large area. The TBR however, can also be used to fire smaller shots for a penetration type application, when you don't require brute force.

And as for Heero dodging the shots from the beginning, they were all coming from one direction. Whereas Kira was surrounded (360 degrees) and being shot at from devices that buzz around at high speed while continuing to shoot and change their direction and location. Effectively creating a net of beams and Kira was dodging all this.

The DRAGOON's Kira is forced to dodge at the end of the first SEED have to stop to fire, and then reset. Not to mention Rau in SEED had trouble hitting a target as big and slow turning as METEOR. Also Heero has used P-Defensors and has had them uses against him as makeshift offensive weapons. Meaning he would indeed have some experience with remote weapons. Heero does this using the Mercurious, and then Mobile Dolls eventually pull a similar tactic. Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ro-NzZfXIs&feature=related The very start of that video displays Wing Zero dodging fire launched by Leo's from 360 degrees.

Based on the description of the Zero System on mahq, it provides a form of pre-cog.

That's the point it's AC's answer for a Newtype. This is also what makes Heero so dangerous given the fact that from his childhood he was trained as a Soldier and has been operating MS all his life. Combined this with the fact he fairs equally as well in grunt MS making a Leo stand tall against Altron, and you've made an already great pilot even better.

But what feats has anyone who used the Zero System done that compares to Kira's feat of dodging those DRAGOONs?

Once again, I have to point that dodging DRAGOON's is insanely easy. They have to stop to fire making them sitting ducks before they can unleash any kind of pain on a target. Its actually sort of embarrassing that Kira doesn't shoot any down. Plus Rau was a poor shot heaving trouble hitting a wide load target such as METEOR. Then there is the fact Heero has used P-Denfensors on the Mercurius as makeshift offensive weapons and you really seed Heero as an ingenious pilot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxYVNAZLzBs Further proof of Heero's brains he actually plans out the revolution intervals of the Colonies gravity rings in order to take out two mobile dolls following behind him.

Pre-cog is useful but it won't work well if you can't react in time.

How can you not react in time? If you know what's coming before it happens you can actually have not only .00 for a reaction time but you can actually have a negative number for a reaction time. Meaning you can react before anything is actually done on the other person's end.

[NewtypeS3]

...as someone who has participated in at least five of these sorts of debates on other boards (yes, I'm the same guy who first put forth the theory on Wing Zero/Custom having the seperate reactors for the TBR on the MAHQ link, among other places), I'm shocked this is still going on.

To copy and paste my first set of replies from the most recent argument:

1) The Wing Zero has stronger armor.
Gundanium Alloy can pretty much negate the damage done by small arms fire all the way up through the heavy weapons like the Dobergun - where the suit is knocked around by the sheer power behind the blasts, but actual damage is minimal. Beam Weaponry is also seriously nerfed against the armor of the Wing Zero, thanks to the Gundanium Alloy as well - the alloy itself capable of surviving the superheated plasma of the TBR Wing Zero carries around. Thus, the S-Freedom can pretty much tank through whatever the S-Freedom can throw at it without much trouble for a while.
The S-Freedom has 'unknown' armor plating, but has been shown repeatedly to do nothing against beam weaponry while relying on Phase Shift (or Trans-Phase Shift) to negate the damage done by physical weaponry. Considering the only physical weaponry on the Wing Zero are the head vulcans and machinecannons in the torso, the S-Freedom's 'super defenses' are made of suck for this match.

2) The Wing Zero weighs less.
The Wing Zero has an empty weight of 8 tons, while the S-Freedom has a fully-loaded weight of 80.09 tons. Even if the S-Freedom were to be emptied to the same loadout that Wing Zero has for the weighing processes, the Wing Zero would still beat it by well over 50 tons.

3) The Wing Zero is more manuverable.
The top speeds of the S-Freedom has not yet been established - much like most of the science in CE has yet to be explained in a way that makes sense. However, the Wing Zero has 88150 kg total thrust - tied for second fastest in the old system of Wing's speed measurement. And, unfortunately, if the S-Freedom was somehow able to match that speed... it wouldn't be nearly as manuverable because it's toting around more than 5 times the mass of the Wing Zero - if not more. Yes, even in space, the tonnage of your unit matters.
And then, if the battle is in the atmosphere, the VL of the S-Freedom is covered up by the Super DRAGOONs, meaning it's speed is reduced incredibly. Whoops.
And this isn't even going into the 360-degree manuverability provided by the wing binders on the Custom design...

4) The Wing Zero has (arguably) better weaponry
Sure, the S-Freedom has more weapons than an NRA Gun Show, but the problem is... can they actually hit anything that dodges? We've seen Kira have no problem hitting grunts that stand still and we've also seen Kira lay the smack down on confused opponents who are so stunned by Kira's logic that they don't even react. However... Shin Asuka's shown us that moving opponents tend to be a problem... At least for the pilot, anyhow.
And even then, there's also the problem that, in the atmosphere, Kira's down to a few weapons rather than the overwhelming amount he loves so, thanks to DRAGOONs being useless there. Not to mention, on top of all this, the 'all weapons fire' mode that the S-Freedom has appears to require thrust from the unit to keep from moving backwards... and it still doesn't help much - to say nothing of the S-Freedom having to stop to even use all those weapons at the same time... and that's if Wing Zero stays still - and even if it's hit, the Gundanium Alloy should hold up for a good long while.
The Wing Zero? Sure, the TBR looks insanely large, but it can be used at variable levels of strength, used as individual guns and can easily be used while moving as well! And this isn't counting the whole 'mount the gun in the shield' tactic with the TV version, to say nothing of the fact that the TBR has it's own internal reactor and that Heero has shown rather large amounts of skill with it.

...that is, when Heero doesn't throw aside the rifle and make use of his melee skills - which were able to hold off Altron in a Leo, outfought Zechs' Epyon (a suit MADE for melee) and so forth.
Kira, on the other hand, has really only gone into melee against those who can barely fight, if at all, and avoids it at all cost - even to his detriment (vs Providence and vs Impulse, as we've seen).

So... Taking speed, armor strength, weight and weaponry (with an arguable case made for pilot skill as well), Wing Zero takes this by a landslide.

Argument over, contest over, topic over.

---
Oh, and forgot to mention something else: The Wing Zero is shorter than the S-Freedom by about two meters, which reduces it's overall size and further adds to the 'more manuverability' argument by making the Wing Zero a harder target to hit.
And this doesn't even cover much of the pilot's skills... much less the freaking Zero System.

[Biolink]

Adjust slightly for Freedom statistics,not S-Freedom statistics.

Freedom is about 9 tons heavier,and has Dragoons,but on average(When it isn't using Dragoons) has less mobility than Freedom due to Volutiere Lumiere being covered up.

[Red Zaku]

Adjust slightly for Freedom statistics,not S-Freedom statistics.

Freedom is about 9 tons heavier,and has Dragoons,but on average(When it isn't using Dragoons) has less mobility than Freedom due to Volutiere Lumiere being covered up.

S-Freedom is less mobile then the original Freedom even without it's DRAGOON's. Thanks to the fact the Voiture Lumiere is only for acceleration in a straight line. Since the VL acts like a beam solar sail it litterally does nothing for S-Freedom's mobility. This is consiquently why even without it's DRAGOON's S-Freedom does not have a Hi-Mat mode.

[Biolink]

Yeap.Full Burst Mode instead of Hi-MaT.

I think that's what the model said.

[Basilikos]

I will concede the debate on the points that Heero has been trained in mobile suits since his youth and has displayed that he is an excellent pilot by normal human standards. With the extreme durability of the Wing Zero thanks to Gundanium armor even beam attacks do little damage. Add in Zero System to predict attacks Heero would probably win. But not in a stomp.

From displayed feats Kira has better reflexes and speed as he still managed to dodge DRAGOONs while attached to the bulky METEOR. Heero only dodged shots coming from one direction. Even the ace pilot Le Creuset with super human reflexes and intuition had trouble getting a clear shot at Kira. However when it's Freedom versus Wing Zero the Zero System should allow Heero the win due to knowing where Kira will attack before he does.

As for the arguments presented regarding thrust, maneuverability, weight, as well as power sources for Wing Zero and buster rifles is all speculation and theory. No one arguing for Wing Zero's favor has given a clip from the anime where many of these claims are stated or displayed. They're moot points anyway as they do not change the likely outcome that Wing Zero wins.

GG boys. I concede though it has been a fun debate. :)

[NeoChaos]

i know this message is all over the place but im in rush,

Heero's back story as a trained killer means nothing. Athrun along with his old team of coordinators were specificaly trained in hand to hand & gundam combat. the 3 from GSD (Sting, Stella, and Auel) are brainwashed soldiers designed and trained for battle.)

All brought down by the one we call Kira (killer) Yamato. So when i hear trained killer i dont see much but a kid with a messed up childhood.

and again about the power output. Wing Zero > Wing Gundam -ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 3732 kW

The ZGMF- X10A FREEDOM -ultracompact nuclear fission reactor, power output rated at 8826 kW.
Now the Strike freedom has 3x's the power as the X10A .

The Strike Freedom is powered by the hyper deuterion nuclear reactor technology developed by ZAFT. This new design stores power in deuterion form, providing a continuous deuterion charge and, in theory, an endless power supply

do the math people Wing Zero doesnt have the power to keep up with s.freedom or x10a
weather its in using its thrusters or shooting a beam cannon of any kind. wing isnt strong enough.

Wing zero is like a hand made wooden sword. cool to look at, bad to fight with.

[NeoChaos]

Ummmm no.

It doesn't matter if he was born Coordinator or not.If he has never trained in fighting before he will get beaten by Heero,who is essentially an assassin that has been trained from Birth.

The Manga has gone out of its way to show us that Coordinators are not always better than Naturals.One of the manga Coordinators,Elijah Kiel is a Coordinator who was blessed with intelligence,but physically is no stronger than a Natural.His intelligence is the only thing that seperates him from Naturals,but yet and still he is still considered a Coordinator.

If you want to argue anybody that might be able to keep up,at least argue somebody that was a trained warrior like like Athrun or Shinn.Otherwise you are just full of shit IMO.

As to the Self-Destruction sequence thing.

It took a Magical Cockpit shutter,and Lowe Gear to be at the right place,at the right time for Kira to survive.He had a high fever and was rushed to Reverened Malkio's.If Lowe Gear wasn't there,Kira does not exist.

Sorry to say but i watched this episode not to long ago and it says nothing about A cockpit shutter nor does talk about lowe gear....the cockpit was completly carved open and exposed to full explosion.

Every Coordinator is born stronger , smarter and faster than the "Average" Natural weather they use these abilitys is up to them. this is very simular to kira up bringing, he showed himself to be a scholar and now he's considered one of the greatest Gundam pilots.

and its sad you bring up a Shinn because he is the definiton of a coordinator who first had nothing to do with gundam combat to becoming the 3rd strongest character in the series.

[Red Zaku]

Heero's back story as a trained killer means nothing.

Yes we should always discount experience. It's not like experience has ever played a factor in determining the outcome of a battle ever.

Athrun along with his old team of coordinators were specificaly trained in hand to hand & gundam combat.

>.> I hate to break it to you but aside fromt he most basic training there is nothing to suggest Athrun, Yzak, Rusty, Nicol, or Dearka had any kind of super advanced hand to hand combat training. They simply graduated at the top of their class, from the way it is illustrated in the first episode Athrun and Company are reletively new to the point they're still considered rookies.

the 3 from GSD (Sting, Stella, and Auel) are brainwashed soldiers designed and trained for battle.)

And? Of course you're forgetting that Dearka was matched against Mwu a person who was a newtype and had more combat experience then Kira, and that for most of the early fights Athrun isn't fighting Kira seriously and he orders Yzak to hold back whenever possible because Athrun is repeatedly trying to convince Kira to join ZAFT. After Kira kills Nicol, despite all the experience Kira has gained he gets pretty much trounced when Athrun isn't holding himself back.

All brought down by the one we call Kira (killer) Yamato. So when i hear trained killer i dont see much but a kid with a messed up childhood.

>.> Kira brought down two of those pilots the first time he blind sides Yzak who was fighting the Archangel with Nicol, and the second time Nicol just sort of blindly charges forward and pretty muched runs into Kira's Anti-Ship Sword. I also fail to see how you can call him Killer as he avoids killing named characters as much as possible. And let's not forget Kira vs. A Trained Solider in SHinn during episode 34 Kira is completely outclassed. But I'm sure you're going to cry foul over the Impulse's replacement parts. Though for all that, Impulse replaces it's parts a grand total of one time, and Kira can only even damage the suit twice. the final bit coming after Shinn's already impaled Kira's MS.

The ZGMF- X10A FREEDOM -ultracompact nuclear fission reactor, power output rated at 8826 kW.
Now the Strike freedom has 3x's the power as the X10A .

And? The size of the reactor means nothing. x.x Litterally. Freedom's reactor needs all the power because it chages the DRAGOON's the rifles, the beam sabers, and powers the rail guns. Wing Zero's reactor ONLY POWERS WING ZERO. Hence it does not need to have an output rating that high.

do the math people Wing Zero doesnt have the power to keep up with s.freedom or x10a
weather its in using its thrusters or shooting a beam cannon of any kind. wing isnt strong enough.

Under a rough assumption that Wing Zero has a mass equal to half that of Strike-Freedom, SF would need a force (thrust) output twice that of WZ's in order to match acceleration. If Wz is 1/3 the mass of SF, SF needs an output equal to three times as much. Wing Zero would have no trouble keeping up because of it's light weight. That's the point, Freedom is actually handicapped by it's weight. Unless you mean Generator which you likely do in which cause it doesn't matter. The Generator output has literally NO IMPACT on the whole fight. Heck the only way the power systems would matter is if one of them didn't have an unlimited supply of energy. As I already pointed out they both do. This is where understanding the technical specs posted on MAHQ comes in handy.

Wing zero is like a hand made wooden sword. cool to look at, bad to fight with.


Unless of course we realize the Zero is actually superior because it's smaller nad faster this makes it moire mobile and much harder to hit. The Zero system amkes it's pilot that much better allowing them to know every potential move their enemy could make and reactor or counter before they even start to make it. As shown previously Heero isnt' a slouch and has no problem killing people so he's not going to handicap himself in the fight like Kira will. Then there's also the fact Gundanium can take massive amounts of damage and be quite literally almost untouched. Wing's armor has been able to stand up to beam weapons firign super heated plasma. The evidence in from CE suggests the majority of their beam weapons are actually lasers. Which the Taurus units use. And while they work well on against P-Defensor barriers they don't work quite so well against Gundanium.

Sorry to say but i watched this episode not to long ago and it says nothing about A cockpit shutter nor does talk about lowe gear....the cockpit was completly carved open and exposed to full explosion.

That's because it's not mentioned in the episode. The Cockpit Shutter which saves Kira's life is in the side story novel Gundam SEED Astray. I'm pretty sure it's Astray R, but I'd have to double check. At any rate Astray is completely 100% official. As stated by Sunrise in it's Harmony of Gundam press release which states only things Sunrise works on are official materials primarily focusing on animated works. Anything that's not animated isn't canon unless Sunrise and Bandai make special exemptions like Advance of Zeta, and the Astray series because both are worked on in conjunction with Sunrise. The same can also be said of Gundam Unicorn and Mobile Suit Gundam: Blue Destiny.

Every Coordinator is born stronger , smarter and faster than the "Average" Natural weather they use these abilitys is up to them.

>.> Gundam SEED's timeline would like to have a word with you. Coordinator children were often born not as tghey were planned to be which is what lead to the Ultimate Coordinator project. Because Ulan Hibiki wanted to create a coordinator who looked exactly like he was supposed to. Also characters such as Elijah Kiel were born who while having incredible intelligence had a weaker physical ability. Elijah is average for a Natural and well sub par for most Coordinators in said department. And there are natural characters like Edward Harrelson, and Rena Imelia who were easily outclassing Coordinator grunts left and right. Not to mention in series Mwu La Flaga was giving Dearka a hard time in a freaking mobile armor that under no theory should have been able to compete with an MS.

this is very simular to kira up bringing, he showed himself to be a scholar and now he's considered one of the greatest Gundam pilots.

>.> I can count on my hand how many Gundam fans think Kira is a great pilot it's not many. Especially since Shinn basically highlighted every single flaw in how Kira fights during their confrontation in episode 34. And it didn't get better for Kira when they faced down in Orb and Shinn despite having no weapons is able to activate SEED mode and fight Kira to a draw.

and its sad you bring up a Shinn because he is the definiton of a coordinator who first had nothing to do with gundam combat to becoming the 3rd strongest character in the series.

What? >.> Ummm Shinn was in the ZAFT military and was actually the test pilot for the Impulse Gundam along with Courtney Hieronymus and Mare Strode.

[NeoChaos]

for a minute i thought you were going to make some sence but i see i was wrong.

1st. its not that im discarding heero's Experience. Im saying GS & GSD are full of kids like him.

2nd. who said that Athruns training was basic, and why would you send your weaker soldiers to steal prototype Mobile suits and then allow them to keep them.

3rd. Kira didnt start realy fighting until the introduction of the strike freedom. ep 39 GSD "Thank you. with this i can finaly fight my fight"

4th. actually yeah...the reactor does mean alot. imagine you have a 75 watt light bulb but your lamp only puts out 45. the bulb wont work. now imagine replacing the energy source from the wing zero into the s.freedom......s.freedom wouldnt activate period, now turn that around and wing zero would probably explode due to the power output.

5th. i never denied Astray of being authentic but its basicly an add on.....when i say add on i mean they created a character after the series was created and place him with in the timeline.

6th looking at the poll you must either have a lot of hands or alot of fingers.
to dought this mans ability is simply showing that people cant let go of the past, and understand that technology has changed and gundams are built better.

7th. in the begging of GSD shinn had nothing to do with the military , he was simply a refugee/ war orphan.

[Red Zaku]

for a minute i thought you were going to make some sence but i see i was wrong.

Oi, so when you can't actually refute a statement cheap insults?

1st. its not that im discarding heero's Experience. Im saying GS & GSD are full of kids like him.

So GS and GSD are full of kids who since the age of five have been trained as assasins'? Who've been around MS their entire lives, and taught to be unfeeling empotionless killers? >.> Where? I'd like to meet even ONE of those characters. The fact is NO ONE in SEED or Destiny has a background that even comes close.

2nd. who said that Athruns training was basic, and why would you send your weaker soldiers to steal prototype Mobile suits and then allow them to keep them.

Because Athrun and his fellow Red Coats graduated the top of their class, and were assigned to the Rau Le Crueset Team which was backed up by experienced fighters like Miguel. That was the point, Rau and Miguel did all the work in keeping the EA forces at bay. All the Red Coats did was hope into unguarded MS. Murrue a mechanic was the ONLY PERSON behind guarding the Gundam's which how the theft took place. But there is NO EVIDENCE for Athrun and company being superior to other Red Coats or being super elite special forces. The burden of Proof is on you this time.

3rd. Kira didnt start realy fighting until the introduction of the strike freedom. ep 39 GSD "Thank you. with this i can finaly fight my fight"

>.> Well at the Introduction to Strike Freedom the best Kira can do is fight Shinn to a draw. You know the same Shinn who has lost the majority of his usable weapons. Kira blocks the AS-Sword has the advantage for a few seconds Shinn goes SEED mode and Kira cannot press home. But really this is one giant excuse. PROVE Kira wasn't trying until he got Strike Freedom because he seemed to be trying very hard using the Strike Rouge before that. You know the MS he gets completedly oblierated by Grunt MS. Also fun note Heero in a Leo fairs better then Kira did in Strike Rouge.

4th. actually yeah...the reactor does mean alot. imagine you have a 75 watt light bulb but your lamp only puts out 45. the bulb wont work.

The Freedom NEEDS that power. Wing Zero doesn't. Why? Because the Wing Zero is only powering itself and recharging batteries for it's Beam Sabers. IT's TBR has it's own dedicated Nuclear reactor built into the rifle by all accounts so it doesn't need to power any externally mounted weapons like the Freedom does. =/

now imagine replacing the energy source from the wing zero into the s.freedom......s.

Why? That has no baring on the fight. =/ The Wing Zero not being able to power Freedom is in now way proof the Zero is under powered itself. That's some of the worst reasoning I've ever heard of.

freedom wouldnt activate period, now turn that around and wing zero would probably explode due to the power output.

And this holds relevence to the fight how? >.> This topic is about if the two Gundam's met in a fight. The output on their generators is completely meaningless in a fight because both Generators power the suit as they have to. The Wing Zero does not need a high output because it has less to recharge and run then the Strike Freedom.

5th. i never denied Astray of being authentic but its basicly an add on.....when i say add on i mean they created a character after the series was created and place him with in the timeline.

>.> Astray was created AS THE SERIES WAS GOING ON. In fact several Astray side stories were being written as the series was going on. And it still doesn't matter if you think it's an add on or not. What's contained there in is still canon, and still official.

6th looking at the poll you must either have a lot of hands or alot of fingers.

Except the pole isn't about people thinking Kira is an elite pilot among Gundam characters. It's about who people think would win. And so far people seem to be voting for Strike Freedom because it has more weapons, and little to do with pilot skill. >.> But hey if you want to make more baseless assumptions about something that isn't necessarily implied in this pole feel free.

to dought this mans ability is simply showing that people cant let go of the past,

>.> What ability? In both Freedom, and Strike Freedom he repeats the same attacks patterns over and over and grunt ssimply freeze in their tracks when facing him. In Strike Rouge, he gets out gunned and defeated by GRUNTS to the point he almost dies in the Rouge and manages to get it completely destroyed. Meanwhile when Heero is in a grunt MS he fights his way through a horde of Grunts, and successfully fends off a few blows from the Altron Gundam piloted by Wufei who's arguably the second best melee fighter in Gundam.

and understand that technology has changed and gundams are built better.

Wait what? Technology hasn't changed, it's different. Gundam Wing is using technology not found until late UC. SEED with the exception of Beam Shields is using Early Universal Century Technology at best.

7th. in the begging of GSD shinn had nothing to do with the military , he was simply a refugee/ war orphan.

>.> You sort of don't get it that Shinn goes to ZAFT and is in the Military for a substantial period of time BEFORE the start of GSD. He's been a member long enough to be a test pilot for the Impulse Gundam and graduate the same Academy Athrun, Yzak, Dearka, Nicol, and Rusty graduated from and with nearly the same marks because he's a Red Coat which is awarded to the Highest ranked graduates.

[Basilikos]

While I have checked out of this debate I still suggest that both sides cough up some videos from the two animes to support your claims. It's the best and most reliable way to argue your points without having to rely on speculation and people only remembering some of the facts about both Gundam series when they probably haven't seen them for several years. Also, are both contestants in character or are they bloodlusted?

Just my two cents guys. >_>

[NewtypeS3]

Heero's back story as a trained killer means nothing.
...excpet that the 100% official Episode Zero manga establishes that Heero knows the voulnerable parts of mobile suits while on foot. Not to mention, soon after the events of the manga's chapter, 9-year-old Heero Yuy is recruited right into the Operation Meteor program.
This gives him 6 years to train in mobile suit combat and become proficient enough to kick ass with just about any suit the AC universe has to offer.

Athrun along with his old team of coordinators were specificaly trained in hand to hand
...which has no bearing whatsoever in mobile suit combat, unless you think the Seed suits now have a Mobile Trace System so Athrun and Kira can have a down-and-dirty knife fight.

& gundam combat.
...how exactly were they trained in Gundam combat before Gundams existed in Seed?
Mobile Suit combat, sure... but their training was against the current forces of the EA during their time at the academy: battleships, Moebius armors and... more Moebius armors. Really awe-inspiring, considering how two were continually thwarted by a Moebius unit (Dearka) and a battleship (Nichol)/I], one continually held back [I](Athrun, as Red observed) and one was too angry to do much of anything but scream the unit's name (Yzak).

the 3 from GSD (Sting, Stella, and Auel) are brainwashed soldiers designed and trained for battle.)
...which is good and all, until you realize that Sting was taken down by a trio of grunts in seconds, Auel was killed by Shin's worst form of Impulse (Gunner/Launcher Impulse... in melee combat, for crying out loud!) and Stella... had little skill aside from pouncing on things.

All brought down by the one we call Kira (killer) Yamato.
Nichol ran onto the anti-ship-sword of the Strike. Not an actual win, considering he was actually taken down by the Archangel before running to his death.
Dearka never faced Kira, nor did anyone but Mu take him down.
Yzak was hurt once, retreated. He was then taken down essentially while he wasn't looking when Kira showed up in the Freedom. A sucker-punch is not a mark for the victory slot, even if Kira would have won in a straight-fight anyhow.
Athrun beat Kira down during their only serious fight. Though Athrun may have lost his mobile suit, he was able to walk away from the fight. Kira wasn't.
And we can't even count Miguel here, because the man had no weapons that could hurt the Strike for their first fight and in their second fight proved he couldn't shoot a sitting-target at point-blank.

As for the Druggies? Stella was a cheap-shot as well, Auel was a kill by Shin and Sting was taken down by grunts (and then again later by Shin, thanks to an oddity).

Yeah, a totally fantastical record of wonderfulness for Kira.

So when i hear trained killer i dont see much but a kid with a messed up childhood.
...so? Still doesn't mean Kira couldn't become the mop when Heero wipes the floor with him.

and again about the power output. Wing Zero > Wing Gundam -ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 3732 kW
The ZGMF- X10A FREEDOM -ultracompact nuclear fission reactor, power output rated at 8826 kW.
Now the Strike freedom has 3x's the power as the X10A .
The Strike Freedom is powered by the hyper deuterion nuclear reactor technology developed by ZAFT. This new design stores power in deuterion form, providing a continuous deuterion charge and, in theory, an endless power supply
do the math people Wing Zero doesnt have the power to keep up with s.freedom or x10a
As Red said, the power sources are about even - meaning jack shit in an actual fight, unless Kira gets greedy and starts draining his power faster than it can be replenished (something seen before happening to the Destiny, so it's possible for the S-Freedom, which uses the same power core), and it makes even less of a difference in Wing Zero vs Freedom because then neither will run out of power!

weather its in using its thrusters or shooting a beam cannon of any kind. wing isnt strong enough.
Wing zero is like a hand made wooden sword. cool to look at, bad to fight with.
Love how you have no proof whatsoever, aside from mis-quoted statistics that prove ignorance, when you claim this.

--------------

1st. its not that im discarding heero's Experience. Im saying GS & GSD are full of kids like him.
Actually, you did just say that you were discarding Heero's experience.
And as for GS/GSD being full of kids like him... not really. Athrun was 16 by the time he graduated from the academy - meaning he was no less than 14 when he first joined (Evidence taken from Shin's case, seen below). Kira was 16 when he first had to pilot his Gundam. Shin was 16-ish by the start of Destiny, but had yet to join ZAFT yet two years prior.

Heero, meanwhile, was trained to be a professional assassin before he was 9 and was then sucked into Operation Meteor, which further trained him until he was 15 - almost purely in Black-Ops and Mobile Suit combat, judging by his flashbacks and history.
This is well over 6 years of experience for Heero, compared to Athrun's 2 or Shin's 2 or Kira's none by the start of their respective shows. And even if we leap to Destiny Kira and Athrun, 4 years and 2 years still don't beat out 6 - which stretches out to more like 8+ during Endless Waltz.

2nd. who said that Athruns training was basic, and why would you send your weaker soldiers to steal prototype Mobile suits and then allow them to keep them.
Oh, neither of us said they were weak. Athrun and his crew are Redcoats in ZAFT, after all.
However, before the EA made it's own Mobile Suits... there had been no mobile-suit-on-mobile-suit combat before! The fact that the theoretically-elite of ZAFT were getting kicked around by a kid with no experience, a vet in a screwed over and outdated unit and a near-useless battleship screams this.

3rd. Kira didnt start realy fighting until the introduction of the strike freedom. ep 39 GSD "Thank you. with this i can finaly fight my fight"
So... he didn't fight when the stress of Nichol trying to shoot out the neck of the Archangel and Yzak trying to kill him snapped him into Seed mode.
Nor was he fighting when Andy was trying to take his life, and very nearly succeeding.
Nor was he fighting serious when Athrun tried to take his very life for killing Nichol (I'll give you that he didn't try on killing the latter, though. Easier than making a Lemming walk off a cliff, Nichol was).
Nor was he fighting seriously against the Druggies, who continually nearly took his own life until others came in and saved him repeatedly.
Nor was he fighting seriously against Rau, who killed the only woman Kira had theoretically loved (well, physically anyway). Which had Kira looking insanely pissed off and declaring that he actually wanted to kill Rau.
Nor was Kira fighting at all seriously during Destiny up through episode 39, such as when Shin very nearly took Kira's life and obliterated the Freedom.

Wow, this means that either Kira somehow knew that, when he first got the Strike, that he would get an insanely better suit over two years later that would finally let him 'start fighting.'
Or maybe you're pulling things from your nether regions and Kira actually meant that he could start fighting again his own way: sitting and spamming.

Because it sure looks like the latter to me.

to dought this mans ability is simply showing that people cant let go of the past,
Let go of what past? When you're dealing with the Gundam franchise, nothing is ever forgotten or in the past - especially with model kit sales, DVD sales and the recent resurgance of Wing merchandise in Japan.

and understand that technology has changed and gundams are built better.
How does that even work when CE is a completely different timeline featuring inferior technology from the After Colony era?

7th. in the begging of GSD shinn had nothing to do with the military , he was simply a refugee/ war orphan.
Sure... during the opening sequence set during the first series.
Note how none of the rest of Destiny is set during that time frame, instead set two years hence. Where Shin has joined ZAFT and recieved enough training to become the pilot for the brand-new-Impulse, featuring the latest and most advanced tech... ever for that timeline.

[NewtypeS3]

And as for video evidence on Wing Zero, sure.

Episode 24: The Gundam They Called Zero, part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xErUtZf2Z4s
@ 1:55, a continual barrage of beam weaponry, dobergun shells and everything a Leo has to offer (enough to make units like the Sandrock and Heavyarms stagger - and they have the heaviest armor in Wing!) against Wing Zero in multitudes. No damage.
@ 3:15, Wing Zero takes casual aim at the Asteroid Base of Oz for this episode. Charging begins.
@ 3:16, Wing Zero fires a shot powerful enough to obliterate not just the Leos in front, but the entire asteroid base in one shot. Said shot is shown from three angles, so as to look really cool, but remains one shot.
And that's just the opening of the episode - and we don't even have Heero as the pilot of this unit yet!

Episode 24: The Gundam They Called Zero, part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_iFMQZpM4A
@ 4:54, a colony literally coated with beam cannons takes aim at the Wing Zero.
@ 5:00, Wing Zero dodges backwards effortlessly - something we've seen is hard as hell for the Freedom.
@ 5:03, Wing Zero charges towards the colony - avoiding incoming blasts as if they were literally nothing.
@ 5:12, Wing Zero starts dodging incoming fire from defence Leos. Notice how it dodges in all directions without pausing.
@ 5:16, Wing Zero splits the TBR in half. Sounds in the background indicate charging, but this could also be a sound to show the split effect.
@ 5:21, the Wing Zero fires what becomes known as the 'Rolling Buster Rifle' at what is probably about 50%+ power. Notice how it can move in many directions using it's own thrusters.
@ 5:30, Wing Zero takes out a Leo with it's machinecannons on the torso.
@ 5:35, Wing Zero aims with half the rifle... and fires in less than a second, obliterating at least 3 Space Leos. No charge time on this baby, apparently.
@ 5:57, the rifles come back together, aiming at the colony.
@ 5:59, charging starts for a colony-busting attack.
@ 6:00, Wing Zero fires the TBR. Huh. Notice the lack of recoil, where it should be shoving him about like mad in space.
@ 6:01, the blast hits the colony.
6:02 through 6:20, the beam rips through the colony wall cleanly - but the loss of pressure and structural stability rip the colony to shreds before the superheated plasma of the TBR can even fade away completely.
And we STILL don't even have Heero as the pilot of this unit yet!

Gundam Wing AMV, using unaltered footage from Endless Waltz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnVSmyZkj0g
@ 0:40, Heero/Leo vs Wufei/Altron Custom. Notice how Heero is fending off a melee-monster of a suit with just a Leo's beam saber. He even takes damage (loses the other arm, slash across the chest), but can still move about... unlike others who lose limbs in combat while screwed over in strength (hint... hint...).
@ 2:11, the Wufei/Altron Custom vs Heero/Wing Zero Custom fight. Well, enough of it to see how agile WZC can be.

The actual Endless Waltz Movie footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aEWje4bDp4
This clip shows Heero and Duo taking down other grunts in a pair of stolen Leos, only to fight against Trowa or Wufei, depending on which one you follow. Notice how Duo's screwed over (despite being a great pilot) while Heero actually thrives in combat!

More of the movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI-0981xF-E
This clip has the start of the Wing Zero Custom vs Altron Custom battle, starting ar about 6:08. Feel free to watch it, considering how Heero moves that sucker. The fight continues at 9:11, with more melee-prowess.
Funny thing... it should also be noted that Heero is blatantly not even trying in this fight as well, as shown by his dialogue during the later parts of the movie.

...and, finally, the entire last episode of Wing: The Final Victor.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSh4k-GidyM
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTQopCk9i28
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Z8dZiO4A4
This episode literally speaks for itself, I feel no need to describe it.

And that's it, for now.
...here's hoping someone can provide something resembling these things for Kira, though.

[Red Zaku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19U5A75V7RI&feature=related

A full minute in is where Kira grabs the Destiny's Anti-Ship Sword. After that Shinn pulls out the beam rifle and actually chases Kira all over the battlefield exchanging beam rifle shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc6CXxU0tA4

Clip shows The DRAGOON's stopping in place and firing, much like early UC 0078 like Funnels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJIWNZywXzA
Around the 1:20 mark DRAGOON's once again shown stopping before firing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ9xyqaZ2vs
At 4:06 in Heero turns the Mercurius' Planet Defensor's into a make shift weapon by using them to create a shield around Zero and Mercurius in order to trap the power exerted from the self detonation of Mercurius. Also at 6:22 in that same video an AI copy of Heero attempts to use the Planet defensors as an offensive weapon against Duo.

[NeoChaos]

0bviously i have a lot to reply to but i will make this as short as i can.


Fist let me apologize to Red Zaku for the sarcasm. im not here to insult anyone, im just here to stand up for opinion. but seriously i didnt understand what point you were making.

second i never realy trashed Wings nor Heero's abilities (except for the woodes sword comment) im just simply saying Kira and the freedom are better.

to shoot a target down is easy, but to aim for a direct spot to disable it takes skill. compared to Kira, Heero's accuracy isnt that good. it took 9 years of training to become the fighter heero became. though kira's first few battles were'nt all that impressive he still showed enough skill to hang with almost everyone he fought against. now if there skill continually progressed as it is now Heero would'nt even be in this debate.

then there is decision making and reaction time. IMO kira is better than heero. Heero even though skilled on his own, he was assisted with an A.I Kira on the other hand used nothing but instict

as kira got older he decided that killing wasnt the only option, if you watch GSD you can see that when ever kira enters the scene he's not there to fight but to protect. during the intro of the strike freedom the draggons system strike eact MS at leats 3 times. you figured if he wanted to kill them one strike to the core would be all it takes.

Kira isnt as inexperienced as some people may thing as he is (admirl, commander and whit suit) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kira_Yamato


now about the dragoons stopping to attack. if you notice the beams that project from them are not continuous, so what you see is the anime pointing out were the beams made contact.

before this goes out of hand im not saying a kira is a newtype, actualy that question was never answered but if it looks like a newtype and it sounds like a newtype http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV_z98-RD8o (1:57)

Around the 1 minute mark it shows a little bit of newtype potential when kira sences Mu La Flaga on the battle field. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzbnO6FswWM&feature=related

this clip here is where kira tells his woman ( i got this) after recieving the strike freedom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqEQNKzxwfo

BRB fellas got run to the mall.

[NewtypeS3]

to shoot a target down is easy, but to aim for a direct spot to disable it takes skill.
Skill that, let's be honest here, Heero has. While disabling with something as massive as the TBR isn't practical, we've seen Heero disable grunts without effort during Endless Waltz... while he was in the Leo.
Heero's aim also allows him to nail the shelter bunker seen in Endless Waltz repeatedly, hitting the same location 'within 1/100ths of a unit.'*

compared to Kira, Heero's accuracy isnt that good.
...1/100ths of a unit, anyone?

it took 9 years of training to become the fighter heero became.
Not really.
Heero had no mobile suit training, though he did know their weaknesses, when he was 9. He then recieved training from that point through the age of 15, where he was sent to Earth as a part of his own Operation Meteor. the reason I say 6+ is because we don't know how much of his on-foot training gets to apply in his Barton Black-Ops stuff - but we know that he really became the pilot he is in Wing in 6 or less...
...which is more than enough to thwart people with nearly a decade of military experience or more.

though kira's first few battles were'nt all that impressive he still showed enough skill to hang with almost everyone he fought against.
...you mean, rookies who had never fought against mobile suits before in actual combat, kept getting knocked back by outdated technology (Mu, duh) or thwarted by a slow-moving battleship that couldn't even see them (Nichol, in this case)?
Yeah, real intimidating.

now if there skill continually progressed as it is now Heero would'nt even be in this debate.
...except it didn't.
And even then, had their skill progressed, Athrun and company were still rookies. Considering Shin was able to graduate with honors and get a great position in two years, Athrun and company could not have had more than two years' experience in the military. Even if we were to add the events of Seed and Destiny into their skill, that would only be a total of 5 years at most.
Whereas Heero would have 9 years, if not more, thanks to the three years onscreen (AC 195 -> AC 197) in Wing, and sidestories make sure to show that he doesn't let his skills slide one bit.

And even then, it almost sounds like you're insulting the Seed guys. 'If their skill continually progressed'? One would think that someone would keep getting better at something with repetition. After all, Athrun became quite the dominant pilot - as did Shin. The fact that Kira went from getting beaten every other week to beating down Andy is proof enough that he does get better, as well.
So yeah, people get better with experience - so of course their skills progress. Problem is, so does Heero's.

then there is decision making and reaction time.
...which I will deal with handily here in a moment.

IMO kira is better than heero. Heero even though skilled on his own, he was assisted with an A.I Kira on the other hand used nothing but instict
As just about every single military man in the world will tell you, instinct is just as likely to kill you as it is to save you. Not to mention Kira using instinct is just a load of crap, considering human instinct in battle is to kill, not to lightly maim or disable.

And as for the AI... it's not an AI.
The Zero System takes the incoming data from all angles of the battle during a single moment, analyzes every possible outcome and then crams it into the pilot's head. It then does this for the next moment, in turn. And the next, and so forth. And it does this continually, without end. And while the Zero System needs pre-established data, it only takes one time seeing something unexpected for it to not be unexpected anymore.
Decision-making time becomes almost as fast as instinct - if not faster, when you know all the possible outcomes ahead of time before your enemy might even know what they're doing.

as kira got older he decided that killing wasnt the only option, if you watch GSD you can see that when ever kira enters the scene he's not there to fight but to protect.
...protect what, though? He has no country to fight for, no one he loves is in danger, with the exception of Athrun... who he continually fights against!
Is it Orb he fights to protect? Then why does Orb fire on them and not want their help? Is it because they willingly joined sides with the EA and went into an actual war - thus not neeing protecting?
Is it Cagali he fights to protect? Why? She isn't in any danger until she's stupid enough to take the Strike Rouge / Akatsuki out into battle!
Is it Lacus he fights to protect? How? She's by his side almost every single episode! Aside from episode 13 and 39, there is no reason for Kira to launch into those other battles!
Is it to make the others stop fighting and save them from themselves? Barging into the middle of a conflict, killing or disabling people and then flying away doesn't do that. It only pisses both sides off and adds to the body count.

So... why did Kira do that, again?

during the intro of the strike freedom the draggons system strike eact MS at leats 3 times. you figured if he wanted to kill them one strike to the core would be all it takes.
...this could also be taken to mean that Kira can't aim for crap with DRAGOONs, much like Rau before him, and needed to make sure he would actually hit the freaking suit in the first place.

Kira isnt as inexperienced as some people may thing as he is (admirl, commander and whit suit) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kira_Yamato
Notice how it's in the Orb military that he's an admiral.
Notice how his Sister runs Orb.
Notice how his girlfriend runs ZAFT, the military that makes him a white coat.
Notice how no one takes orders from Kira, nor does any of the orders Kira tries to deliver get listened to.

Notice how all of these add up to the concept that Kira's getting spoiled rotten from conflicts of interest rather than pure skill. I'm not saying he's not skilled, but if excellent pilots like Char and Amuro barely made it to the rank of 'Captain' during several wars in which multitudes died on all sides... how can Kira make it up the ranks when he's an outsider who never joined any military outside the EA?
You know, where he was an Ensign when he defected?

now about the dragoons stopping to attack. if you notice the beams that project from them are not continuous, so what you see is the anime pointing out were the beams made contact.
...except that anime like Zeta Gundam never bothered to do that. And Zeta Gundam was made two decades before Destiny!

From one of the final fights of Zeta Gundam's TV edition, Haman in her Queblay vs Char in his Hyaku Shiki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHrJhc8P2E
Notice how Haman's Funnels are firing continuously and don't stop except to get precise aim on the joints of the Hyaku Shiki!

From the movie iteration, which shows combat the way Tomino had wanted it done (albeit it's in Chinese somehow): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoKbXNKo9UY
Notice how the Funnels fire even faster?

From ZZ, albeit in an AMV form, take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdyuvY189IM
@ 1:23, Puru II sends the Funnels from the Quin Mantha after Mashimar's mobile suit squad. Notice the rate of fire and the lack of funnels stopping to fire.

From Char's Counterattack, midway through the movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD_PeXJ4QqM
@ 2:05, Char deploys a Funnel from his Sazabi. Amuro counters with one of his own. Both Funnels fly off into space, shooting at one another without ever stopping.
@ 7:03, while not important... some real kickass melee-action from Amuro and Char.

[TBC - freaking text limits.]

[NewtypeS3]

[Concluded from last post.]

before this goes out of hand im not saying a kira is a newtype, actualy that question was never answered but if it looks like a newtype and it sounds like a newtype http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV_z98-RD8o (1:57)
Around the 1 minute mark it shows a little bit of newtype potential when kira sences Mu La Flaga on the battle field. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzbnO6FswWM&feature=related
Except Director Fukuda has declared on multiple occaisions that Kira is not a Newtype. Never has been, never will be. Those 'newtype flash' moments were all declared to be 'homages' to the Universal Century, much like the ZAKUs, GOUFs and DOMs - to say nothing of the masked man and other tropes, like Fou... I mean Stella and her Psy... Destroy Gundam taking out Hon... Berlin.

And even then 'sensing something' isn't related to Newtypes only. It's in all anime (especially non-Newtype Gundam works), such as DBZ, Bleach, Naruto, Fullmetal Alchemist, Evangelion, Nadesico, Gundam 00, Gundam Wing (insanely so here), G-Gundam (also insanely so here), Turn-A Gundam, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure... the list goes on and on.

Kira isn't a Newtype, confirmed by the man who created Seed, backed up by both companies that own Gundam.
Stop that now.

this clip here is where kira tells his woman ( i got this) after recieving the strike freedom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqEQNKzxwfo
Ok, sure.
But context still delivers that means 'again,' considering the line shows up at 2:56 and is "I can fight my battles properly again."
Whoops! That isn't what you claimed it would be a few posts back, and it contradicts the claim!

----------------

*Found on this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyJGdpQ6jxA
@ 7:39, first TBR shot. From an already-damaged Wing Zero, due to fighting, re-entry and god-knows-what-else.
@ 8:03, second TBR shot.
@ 8:16, the line "The shield has lost half it's strength! Wing Zero's accurate to 1/100th of a unit!" is delivered.
Certainly sounds psychotically accurate to me, especially with all those cameras helping the Wing Zero to aim (Head-Cam, two on the TBR, one on each arm, most likely a chest-cam....

[Red Zaku]

to shoot a target down is easy, but to aim for a direct spot to disable it takes skill.

Kira doesn't aim to disable. The Freedom and Strike Freedom's targeting computer are programmed to only attack joints likely a revision made by Kira during the three days it took him to arrive at JOSH-A. But the fact remains everytime Kira shoots the leg off a grunt it's always thanks to his multi-lock targeting computer.


compared to Kira, Heero's accuracy isnt that good.

Of course Kira is trying to disable so he programs his MS to fire and aim for joints. Heero on the other hand has no qualms about killing people and so he doesn't try to be insanely accurate with his shots. It's important to note that when using Heavy Arms against Tallgeese though Heero shows almost the same profficient aiming ability as Trowa despite the fact Heavy Arms is a suit designed almost entirely for spamming enemies from long range.

it took 9 years of training to become the fighter heero became. though kira's first few battles were'nt all that impressive he still showed enough skill to hang with almost everyone he fought against.

He was completely outclassed by Miguel in their first meeting Kira only wins because of Phase Shift. In fact that can be said with almost every ZAFT pilot he encounters outside of the La Krueset team who never actually fight him together.


now if there skill continually progressed as it is now Heero would'nt even be in this debate.

>.> Kira gets the Strike Rouge decimated by GOUF's and ZAKU's. Heero uses a Leo and is able to stand up to Altron in Endless Waltz. That's a tremendous difference in terms of skill. Using MS that are inferior to the current grunts and in the case of Rouge that is heavily debatable Kira struggles immensely because he can't spam them. Heero on the other hand transfers seemlessly between MS and he turns the Leo into an effective fighting machine multiple times in Gundam Wing the series and in Endless Waltz. Hell Heero is able to match up to Mobile Dolls in a Leo for a short while.

then there is decision making and reaction time. IMO kira is better than heero.

Based on what? You can have your opinions all you want but this ius a debate about what MS would win a fight with their respective pilots just saying " I think Kira is better." Isn't good enough you need at least some reasonable justification here.

Heero even though skilled on his own, he was assisted with an A.I Kira on the other hand used nothing but instict

Heero fights effectively against Virgo Mobile Dolls in a Leo. He fights a horde of Virgos effectively in Wing Gundam until he's overwhelmed by shear numbers, he fights effectively against Altron, before Wufei finally destroys the Leo Heero was piloting. He shows incredible skill in the Mercurius as he's the one who ends up bringing down Quatre in the Wing Zero. >.> Heero does all that without the Zero System. As said before the Zero System makes an already great pilot better.

as kira got older he decided that killing wasnt the only option, if you watch GSD you can see that when ever kira enters the scene he's not there to fight but to protect.

So he wasn't fighting when he shot the Minerva's Tannhauser? Shinn was fighting to protect people too. That doesn't change the fact that attacking people is fighting. Just because you think his reason's are noble or because hes' insanely naive enough to think protecting things makes it not fighting doesn't make him right, logical, or a good pilot. Hell Kira's interventions directly killed a ton of Minerva Crew members when he shoots the Tannhauser in 23. His interventions lead to the death of Heine, and when he shoots the wings off flight type MS in Earths Gravity? Contrary to the rosey beliefs of Jesus Yamato those people still most likely die from the fall.

during the intro of the strike freedom the draggons system strike eact MS at leats 3 times. you figured if he wanted to kill them one strike to the core would be all it takes.

And? He doesn't kill them. And this doesn't show Kira's skill the DRAGOON's on Strike Freedom use the same control system as the Weapons Pods AKA Gunbarrel knock-offs used on the Chaos Gundam. This means the Computer controls them and not the pilot allowing ANYONE to use them. Strike Freedom is sporting what is essentially DRAGOON's for Dummies.

Where the original Freedom Gundam carried a pair of plasma beam cannons, the Strike Freedom features eight DRAGOON (Disconnected Rapid Armament Group Overlook Operation Network) units. The DRAGOON units housed in the wings utilize an improved quantum communications system, allowing normal pilots without expanded spatial awareness to use them.

That's taken directly from the Strike Freedom's profile on MAHQ.net the exact address is here. http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-destiny/zgmf-x20a.htm

Kira isnt as inexperienced as some people may thing as he is (admirl, commander and whit suit) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kira_Yamato

>.> Of course Wikipedia is a horrible source esspecially for obscure things like anime do to the fact the articles can be edited byu anyone to say anything. For a good while Orihime from Bleaches Occupation was listed as Hooker. So before you even drag that site up let's first consider the quality of the information.

The Second point I feel that needs to be brought up is that Heero was in continious combat for Nine full years prior to the events of Gundam Wing. Even with the amount of combat he's seen in the last two years Kira still is completely lacking in experience next to someone like Heero.

now about the dragoons stopping to attack. if you notice the beams that project from them are not continuous, so what you see is the anime pointing out were the beams made contact.

Beam fire has never been nor will it ever be continious. And the DRAGOON's are firing those beams so it's clearly NOT where the beams made contact. Its the DRAGOON's being forced to stop before shooting because they're controlled by a Computer they don't have anywhere near the kind of mobility and shooting ability found in a Group of MS their only advantage is being smaller in size which isn't going to save you from the Rolling Buster which is all Heero needs to do to completely eradicate such a threat.

before this goes out of hand im not saying a kira is a newtype, actualy that question was never answered but if it looks like a newtype and it sounds like a newtype http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV_z98-RD8o (1:57)

Kira's not a newtype in Fukuda's interview he expressly states that Kira's supposed newtype flashes a merely homages to the original Gundam. He confirms the only two Newtypes in SEED are Mwu and Rau because he didn't want a world where the fate of the universe was left up to Newtypes.

http://aeug.blogspot.com/search?q=Fukuda
His interview is about 3/4 of the way down the page here is the specific quote.

Q: Are Mwu and Raww Newtypes?
A: Both are the last remaining Newtypes. They were the last Newtypes in the world so I wanted to write a story where non-Newtype people try to solve the problem.

Around the 1 minute mark it shows a little bit of newtype potential when kira sences Mu La Flaga on the battle field. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzbnO6FswWM&feature=related

He says something is formilliar about him in the official translation. Kira could have got that feeling from Neo's piloting style. Because it was almost identicle to Mwu's in the Strike Gundam.

this clip here is where kira tells his woman ( i got this) after recieving the strike freedom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqEQNKzxwfo

So he tells her now I can fight with this and that means he wasn't fighting all out previosly? That makes no sense. All it means is he can no fight because befor ehe got that he was in Rouge and getting his ass kicked becuase he couldn't fight how he liked to with Rouge. Kira forgot how to adapt his style to his MS and instead uses the MS to make up for his own lack of skill.

[NeoChaos]

Kira doesn't aim to disable. The Freedom and Strike Freedom's targeting computer are programmed to only attack joints likely a revision made by Kira during the three days it took him to arrive at JOSH-A. But the fact remains everytime Kira shoots the leg off a grunt it's always thanks to his multi-lock targeting computer.

where did you get this from, the only programing kira did to his gundams were make them more fitted to his style of combat.


Of course Kira is trying to disable so he programs his MS to fire and aim for joints. Heero on the other hand has no qualms about killing people and so he doesn't try to be insanely accurate with his shots. It's important to note that when using Heavy Arms against Tallgeese though Heero shows almost the same profficient aiming ability as Trowa despite the fact Heavy Arms is a suit designed almost entirely for spamming enemies from long range.

so your telling me kira lays back in his cock pit and let the gundam do all the work. sorry but thats a load of sh....its true that the gundams are easier to controll but that doesnt deny the strength of the gundam.



He was completely outclassed by Miguel in their first meeting Kira only wins because of Phase Shift. In fact that can be said with almost every ZAFT pilot he encounters outside of the La Krueset team who never actually fight him together.


now i said his first few battles were'nt that impressive. and what does it matter if they didnt fight him together. and then you have to put this in perspective, this kid never piloted a mobile suit/ gundam ever in his life. if he is as sorry as you portray why is he appear better than the pilots he fights. now i cant be because of his gundam because each of there gundams consisted of the same power/potential .

>.> Kira gets the Strike Rouge decimated by GOUF's and ZAKU's. Heero uses a Leo and is able to stand up to Altron in Endless Waltz. That's a tremendous difference in terms of skill. Using MS that are inferior to the current grunts and in the case of Rouge that is heavily debatable Kira struggles immensely because he can't spam them. Heero on the other hand transfers seemlessly between MS and he turns the Leo into an effective fighting machine multiple times in Gundam Wing the series and in Endless Waltz. Hell Heero is able to match up to Mobile Dolls in a Leo for a short while.

when kira returns to save lacus he wasnt carring about that gundam, he wasnt even dodgeing the attacks.

Based on what? You can have your opinions all you want but this ius a debate about what MS would win a fight with their respective pilots just saying " I think Kira is better." Isn't good enough you need at least some reasonable justification here.

With this comment you split up my two senteces and commented on them both, kira's pure instict against Heero's use of the Zero system ( endless waltz) makes kira a better pilot to me.

Heero fights effectively against Virgo Mobile Dolls in a Leo. He fights a horde of Virgos effectively in Wing Gundam until he's overwhelmed by shear numbers, he fights effectively against Altron, before Wufei finally destroys the Leo Heero was piloting. He shows incredible skill in the Mercurius as he's the one who ends up bringing down Quatre in the Wing Zero. >.> Heero does all that without the Zero System. As said before the Zero System makes an already great pilot better.

you have to understand that kira has been in a gundam for 2 1/2 years maybe between both GS & GSD, His presents on the battle field brings either terror or full out anger knowing that they cant win this fight.
those who have tried... failed. and all this with out A.I.


So he wasn't fighting when he shot the Minerva's Tannhauser? Shinn was fighting to protect people too. That doesn't change the fact that attacking people is fighting. Just because you think his reason's are noble or because hes' insanely naive enough to think protecting things makes it not fighting doesn't make him right, logical, or a good pilot. Hell Kira's interventions directly killed a ton of Minerva Crew members when he shoots the Tannhauser in 23. His interventions lead to the death of Heine, and when he shoots the wings off flight type MS in Earths Gravity? Contrary to the rosey beliefs of Jesus Yamato those people still most likely die from the fall.

when i say protect im talking about his peoples pride or home. when he fought before the S.Freedom his main focus was on the archangel or another gundam. he never had a fight that was strictly him fighting a one on one battle until he got his S.Freedom.




And? He doesn't kill them. And this doesn't show Kira's skill the DRAGOON's on Strike Freedom use the same control system as the Weapons Pods AKA Gunbarrel knock-offs used on the Chaos Gundam. This means the Computer controls them and not the pilot allowing ANYONE to use them. Strike Freedom is sporting what is essentially DRAGOON's for Dummies.

i never said anything arguing this fact, except the fact that he did not program his gundam to aim specifiicly at joints. if that was the case why need a pilot. why not send gundams off into space to fight on there own.

like a great gundam pilot once said 'its not the gundam, but the pilot" in heero's case in the wing zero, it was the gundam

Where the original Freedom Gundam carried a pair of plasma beam cannons, the Strike Freedom features eight DRAGOON (Disconnected Rapid Armament Group Overlook Operation Network) units. The DRAGOON units housed in the wings utilize an improved quantum communications system, allowing normal pilots without expanded spatial awareness to use them.

That's taken directly from the Strike Freedom's profile on MAHQ.net the exact address is here. http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-destiny/zgmf-x20a.htm

like i said, im not denying the fuction of the dragoons. but to push this farther kira isnt a normal pilot at all, so would it make sence that a better pilot would be able to make better use of this function. and who's to say that the way kira uses the dragoons would look or react the same as if a normal pilot used them...

>.> Of course Wikipedia is a horrible source esspecially for obscure things like anime do to the fact the articles can be edited byu anyone to say anything. For a good while Orihime from Bleaches Occupation was listed as Hooker. So before you even drag that site up let's first consider the quality of the information.

its a source site....half the things they get come from other official and non official site such as mahq.net so you cant just blow off wikipedias information simply because you dont agree,

The Second point I feel that needs to be brought up is that Heero was in continious combat for Nine full years prior to the events of Gundam Wing. Even with the amount of combat he's seen in the last two years Kira still is completely lacking in experience next to someone like Heero.

how can you say that when you dont know what Heero's seen. i know your a fan of the show i do the same thing but you cant keep telling me your opinion on how heero felt or what he seen that hasnt been shown in the anime its self. thats like me saying during the 2 years kira left the battle field to train. He's gotten better than before his use of a gun i better and his morals have changed.
it's not legit its just my view on the things.


Beam fire has never been nor will it ever be continious. And the DRAGOON's are firing those beams so it's clearly NOT where the beams made contact. Its the DRAGOON's being forced to stop before shooting because they're controlled by a Computer they don't have anywhere near the kind of mobility and shooting ability found in a Group of MS their only advantage is being smaller in size which isn't going to save you from the Rolling Buster which is all Heero needs to do to completely eradicate such a threat.



Kira's not a newtype in Fukuda's interview he expressly states that Kira's supposed newtype flashes a merely homages to the original Gundam. He confirms the only two Newtypes in SEED are Mwu and Rau because he didn't want a world where the fate of the universe was left up to Newtypes.


i never said he was

He says something is formilliar about him in the official translation. Kira could have got that feeling from Neo's piloting style. Because it was almost identicle to Mwu's in the Strike Gundam.

he wasnt even fighting Mwu at the time so what could be familiar about him if Mwu was no where near Mwu. second Dubbed isnt Official and the only official subs are on the dvd which are still different from what you hear in a dubbed version, so...

So he tells her now I can fight with this and that means he wasn't fighting all out previosly? That makes no sense. All it means is he can no fight because befor ehe got that he was in Rouge and getting his ass kicked becuase he couldn't fight how he liked to with Rouge. Kira forgot how to adapt his style to his MS and instead uses the MS to make up for his own lack of skill.

its not that he could'nt fight without his gundam which by the way, he didnt know existed. after talking with athrun he final understood what he had to do . and to say that kira "forgot" how to adapt, is your take on it , which wouldnt make sence seeing that his first im in a MS he configured it to fit his style and im pretty sure he could do it again as he did the freedom and the strike freedom.

[NeoChaos]

to New type ....the quote that i said came strictly from memory but it shares the same meaning and it doesnt contradict anything. i would talk about my take on this but its not relivent

to every one else

lets talk gundams
Freedom/S.freedom can leave and enter the atmospher with out any damage to the gundams and without the gundam changing its shape, stance, or form

Wing gundam/Custom. needs to be either in bird mode or its wings must protect it.

Freedom/S.Freedom energy source seems to be unlimited due to the fact that these MS have never ran out of energy using any attack big or small

Wing gundam/Custom energy also apears to be unlimited with the exception of the buster rifles which has to be recharged after a maximum of 3 shots.

http://www.gundamofficial.com/index-2.html

With that said Freedom/S.Freedom cand dish out more and take more damage than The Wing Gundam/Custom. and to explain this point....Freedoms armor is stronger and energy he has is superiour to the wing gundam/custom..

If kira and Heero fought ,through out time the Wing would be worn down by the endurance of the freedom.

You place wing zero status so high due to the damage he causes to his apponents which makes sence, but you also make it seem as if the enemys he fights are better than the enemys kira fights. im not talking main characters or anything but simply random enemys caught in battle.

and then you have to think about the models they each fight. the zaku's that Kira fights are highly upgraded versions of the ones in Heero's era.

Before the fight between kira and shinn, Shinn trained on a system that replicated the same functions as the zero system. the only difference is the Zero system feeds this data to the pilots mind "During" actual combat.

[Biolink]

Random Mobile Doll>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Random Seed Grunt,which most of the time stood there awestruck,not even attempting at giving 100% against named character,and ultimately shot up and killed by any named character.For that matter a Random Mobile Doll>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Most if not All Gundam grunts.

Shinn trained with something not even close to the Zero System.Shinn used freaking old video footage of Freedom,and him and Rey made observations on Kira's fighting style as the video continued.That's all Shinn and Rey's doing,on noticing that Kira doesn't aim to kill people.The Zero System updates LIVE new information to the pilots brain every second of battle,and I'm sure it can recall old information if it notices somebody piloting in a familiar way(Whether it be in that suit or a different one).

I'll let New and Red handle the rest.

[NewtypeS3]

to New type ....the quote that i said came strictly from memory but it shares the same meaning and it doesnt contradict anything. i would talk about my take on this but its not relivent
I would love to know about your 'take,' honestly.
Especially because your claim of 'finally fight' has no remote bearing to the actual definition of the context - 'resume fighting.'

to every one else
lets talk gundams
Freedom/S.freedom can leave and enter the atmospher with out any damage to the gundams and without the gundam changing its shape, stance, or form
Only because of the Phase Shift Armor can it enter the atmosphere. However, I've never seen the Freedom, S-Freedom, Justice, iJustice, Legend or Destiny leave the Earth's atmosphere under their own power. The one time Kira did something remotely similar was hanging onto the outside of a spacrcraft as it shot along a mass driver. This is, of course, not the actual definition of 'leaving the atmosphere' that everyone considers when you proclaim that.

It should also be noted that the Freedom's re-entry trajectory has to be a calculated one, or else the Freedom will actually overload and then melt/explode.
You know, much like everything else that re-enters the atmosphere.

Wing gundam/Custom. needs to be either in bird mode or its wings must protect it.
Actually, it doesn't need to be, though it should be.
As seen in the Endless Waltz clips me and Red posted, Wing Zero and Altron begin their re-entry while in full combat. In fact, Wing Zero is actually going in backwards without the wings folded in at all!
It's not until deep into the re-entry process, in an out-of-control-fall and going this way and that without reguard for proper procedure, that Wing Zero and Altron bother to move into their re-entry modes. And there's where it gets interesting...
While Wing Zero may fold it's wings over itself to enter the atmosphere, Altron had nothing to protect itself, yet came out completely unscathed in comparison...

Freedom/S.Freedom energy source seems to be unlimited due to the fact that these MS have never ran out of energy using any attack big or small
Small flaw there.
The S-Freedom uses the same power source as the Destiny. Thus, if Kira's stupid about his power usage (and let's be honest here, he is), he can and possibly will drain his power faster than it can be replenished.

Wing gundam/Custom energy also apears to be unlimited with the exception of the buster rifles which has to be recharged after a maximum of 3 shots.
Another flaw.
Wing Gundam's Buster Rifle might have this flaw, but Wing Zero's does not. In fact, there has been solid evidence shown in this topic (via a link to MAHQ) that lists a theory on the Twin Buster Rifle having internal dedicated reactors for each side, much like the G-BRD of the Universal Century. This goes great lengths to explain why the TBR can be fired at almost literally a mile a minute without needing to recharge, not to mention why the destruction of Wing Zero in Endless Waltz started with explosions from the beam rifle itself.

http://www.gundamofficial.com/index-2.html
With that said Freedom/S.Freedom cand dish out more and take more damage than The Wing Gundam/Custom.
...Wing Gundam? Neo, you're a little off there. The fight is between Kira/Freedom and Heero/Wing Zero. There is a vast difference in power between Wing Gundam and it's predecessor Wing Zero (another Gundam irony: the prototype is always better than the proverbial MP model), not to mention the fact that no one's brought up Wing Gundam EXCEPT you.

And as for your assumption that either Freedom can take more than Wing Zero can... where exactly does it state that Phase Shift Armor can nerf beam weaponry damage?
Because it'd need to do that on a large basis to even come close to matching the Gundanium Alloy on the Wing Zero - something that almost completely negates damage from physical weapons (bullets, Dobergun rounds) and lessens the damage from almost all beam weapons (beam rifles, Virgo cannons... the Twin Buster Rifle itself...).

In fact, we've seen the Freedom incapable of negating beam weapons fire, much less nerfing the damage. The links for the Providence v Freedom fight are more than enough, as Kira takes multiple hits during those scenes - losing limbs right and left on his suit.

Considering the fact that Deathscythe Hell has taken five direct hits from Virgo beam cannons (developed from the Veyate's own beam rifle, which was made by the five scientists who made Wing Zero - this means it's devestating in damage potential, easily) and makes it out unscathed... while at 70% completion...*
...or that Altron took a barrage of beam fire that would wipe pretty much any mobile suit from any other continuity to shreds, yet was still completely capable of tearing the enemy apart after the barrage ended...**
...come on, neither version of Freedom can hope to tank this stuff and come out remotely resembling itself.

and to explain this point....Freedoms armor is stronger and energy he has is superiour to the wing gundam/custom..
Which explains... absolutely nothing.
In fact, it comes out as gibberish, because the only energy that could possible make a difference in any form of this fight would be either the power source for the S-Freedom or the Buster Rifle batteries on classic Wing. Since classic Wing isn't even in this argument and we've already addressed the problems with S-Freedom's power source...
...this makes me wonder where the bloody hell you're getting everything else from! Neither Freedom has better armor, because both are torn to shreds by any form of beam energy. Wing Zero, meanwhile, is only scuffed and dented.

In fact, this entire argument over the last 12 or more pages have only proven how superior Wing Zero is over both Freedoms!

If kira and Heero fought ,through out time the Wing would be worn down by the endurance of the freedom.
...what endurance? The ability for Kira to sit on his butt for great lengths of time while he disables helpless opponents from afar?
Heero's final battle in Wing stretched over a time span of about three days during the final 7 episodes of Wing. While it was not constant combat, Heero had little time to rest up because of the constant attacks from either Zechs or White Fang. In fact, the final fight for Heero and Zechs technically spans two or three episodes - not to mention they spend vast episodes fighting for god-knows-how-long only for the fights to be interrupted by some random event!

[NewtypeS3]

You place wing zero status so high due to the damage he causes to his apponents which makes sence, but you also make it seem as if the enemys he fights are better than the enemys kira fights.
Heero does fight people who aren't thwarted by blind battleships or sit still in awe of his mobile suit doing flips, so... yeah.

im not talking main characters or anything but simply random enemys caught in battle.
Oh, grunts?
Then I've gotta wonder how you think the CE grunts are remotely as good as the computer program made to move as fast as the unit can move at all times as it continually nails a suit in the same spot repeatedly... just because it can, what with the aim on the suit being 100% computed with no chance for pilot error.

and then you have to think about the models they each fight. the zaku's that Kira fights are highly upgraded versions of the ones in Heero's era.
...Heero fought ZAKUs? I... I don't even know how to properly reply to that statement, considering you're comparing two completely different universes of technology as if one built off the other! And while Heero certainly started off fighting LEO UNITS, they came at him in mass numbers within 5 episodes of the series' start - large enough numbers to make any one of Kira's fights look like a cakewalk. Like the 100+ units sent out after just Deathscythe and Sandrock in episode 10!
And those are just Leos - this isn't even getting into the Taurus units or the Virgo I/II units! While the Taurus is a little underwhelming, the beam cannon it weilds is more than capable of causing serious damage to the first-line of Gundams we see in Wing. Meanwhile, the Virgo I/II units are the perfect blends of the Mercurius and Veyate - two machines made for the height of assault and defensive powers by the guys who made Wing Zero!
If you somehow think the nameless Windams, ZAKUs and GOUFs Kira fought during Seed Destiny somehow rank close to those... you're crazy.

And even then, that's not counting classic Seed - where the Space Leo would tear the GiNN to shreds simply because the Leo has a better variety of weapons and can even use beam weaponry!

Before the fight between kira and shinn, Shinn trained on a system that replicated the same functions as the zero system.
...no, he and Rey watched the equivalent of home movies - footage of the Freedom in combat. They then analyzed the Freedom's style of combat from the videos - much like how any good NFL coach can get a good idea of an opposing team's plays from watching a few of their games on TV.

the only difference is the Zero system feeds this data to the pilots mind "During" actual combat.
The only difference is that neither of those are actually related at all!

----------------------

Sources:

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2DFcFQexNM
@ 5:14, Duo states the line "It's only 70% complete, our abilities to fight are limited!"
@ 5:27, the first shot hits Deathscythe. No damage.
@ 5:30, the second shot... and third, at the same time... fourth, fifth... explosion. The Deathscythe emerges from the explosion completely unscathed.

**http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_FwfxkFEZQ
@ 0:29, the barrage of beam weaponry I mentioned. These Virgos may be using beam rifles rather than beam launchers/cannons, but they're still insanely devestating. Why?
@ 1:26, we see the damage done by the barrage - finally, though after the battle is finished. The damage report? "Irregularities in the drive system, left arm immobile, operational abilities down in every segment." And with that last part of the line, we see openly leaking oxygen from the unit. It's seriously messed up, but he was still able to take out those MDs.
@ 5:39, Wufei has been picked up by Heero and Sally. There are now 40 Mobile Dolls out there, after them all. Wufei declares he'll go out and fight them. In his mobile suit. Which has yet to be repaired at all. It takes Heero practically forcing Wufei into Wing Zero for the man to do any different.
The sum of this one? Gundanium Alloy is insanely tough - and Wufei's got enough confidence in him that he thinks he could take a heavily-damaged suit and wipe out 40 MDs with it because of that. Sure says something about the armor for those Gundams...

Also of note in this video, at 6:20, Wufei begins using Wing Zero for the first time, period. Notice how he, too, can dodge incoming fire from any angle without effort!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Now for some of the previous post...

where did you get this from, the only programing kira did to his gundams were make them more fitted to his style of combat.
The fact that Andy openly says it during Seed? Really, it's pretty blatantly stated - even if actually doing the disabling takes some skill as well.

so your telling me kira lays back in his cock pit and let the gundam do all the work. sorry but thats a load of sh....its true that the gundams are easier to controll but that doesnt deny the strength of the gundam.
Oh, we're not denying the fact that the Freedom and S-Freedom are utter monsters in their own respective shows.
We're stating that Kira has less skill than the animation suggests. And it doesn't hurt that the strength shown for the Freedom and S-Freedom is... lacking compared to the strength shown for Wing Zero.

when kira returns to save lacus he wasnt carring about that gundam, he wasnt even dodgeing the attacks.
Wasn't... or couldn't?
Because, for all the doubt I have on his actual skill, Kira's smart enough to know that no suit he's piloted has the ability to deflect beam weaponry.

With this comment you split up my two senteces and commented on them both, kira's pure instict against Heero's use of the Zero system ( endless waltz) makes kira a better pilot to me.
Problem: you never dealt with my comments and evidence against that assumption.

you have to understand that kira has been in a gundam for 2 1/2 years maybe between both GS & GSD,
...no, no he wasn't. Kira let the Freedom proverbially rot in the garage after he fixed it. Presumably, he kept it maintained - but Kira never once piloted the Freedom in combat after Rau and before Destiny 13. Perhaps to test out equipment and to see if it was all working, but tests are different from combat.

His presents on the battle field brings either terror or full out anger knowing that they cant win this fight.
The same is said of the Mobile Dolls, Wing Zero/Heero, Wing Gundam/Heero, Gundam Deathscythe/Duo, Gundam Deathscythe Hell/Duo, Gundam Heavyarms/Trowa, Gundam Sandrock/Quatre, Gundam Shenlong/Wufei, Altron Gundam/Wufei, the Tallgeese I/II/III and their pilots...
...really, it's nothing unique in Gundam - nor is it unique in Wing at all!

those who have tried... failed. and all this with out A.I.
...does 'sitting back and exclaiming the enemy is fast' count as trying? If so, then it brings the total number of grunts who try this to... about 6. Two of whom actually try to fire upon Kira.

when i say protect im talking about his peoples pride or home. when he fought before the S.Freedom his main focus was on the archangel or another gundam. he never had a fight that was strictly him fighting a one on one battle until he got his S.Freedom.
Kira vs Miguel, rounds 1 and 2, no interference from any side. Thus a one-on-one.
Kira vs Andy, final round, no interference from any side. Thus a one-on-one.
Athrun and Kira's 'final' fight, no interference from any side. Thus a one-on-one.
Kira and Rau's fight, no interference from any side. Thus a one-on-one.
Kira vs Shin, no interference from any side unless you count using what you were given 'interference.' Thus a one-on-one.

Boy, that's five/six right there, depending on if Miguel gets to count twice!

[To be concluded.]

[NewtypeS3]

[Sorry about the multiple posts, guys - it's the text-limit...]

like a great gundam pilot once said 'its not the gundam, but the pilot" in heero's case in the wing zero, it was the gundam
...except Heero has no problem moving from Wing Gundam to a Leo to the Mercurius (COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from Wing in concept and use) to Wing Zero to a Leo to Wing again to Epyon to Wing Zero yet again until the end of the series.

but to push this farther kira isnt a normal pilot at all, so would it make sence that a better pilot would be able to make better use of this function. and who's to say that the way kira uses the dragoons would look or react the same as if a normal pilot used them...
The DRAGOONs Kira has on the S-Freedom are computer-controlled without any evidence that the pilot has any say on how they attack.
Thus, outside Kira programming them like he does his mobile suits, there's no way Kira can 'take it father.'

its a source site....half the things they get come from other official and non official site such as mahq.net so you cant just blow off wikipedias information simply because you dont agree,
That's not the problem with Wikipedia. The problem is that anyone can edit anything so it says anything. I could go to the page for Wing Zero and change it's profile so this way it says that the Wing Zero is powered by dead babies, human souls and love... and Wikipedia would then declare these things as fact.
MAHQ takes all their information from the officially-released information for each series for their statistics - thus actually official, despite being a fan-site. This is why the Strike-Freedom had no hard statistics outside a weapons description until the release of information for the unit included in the model kits was made available.

he wasnt even fighting Mwu at the time so what could be familiar about him if Mwu was no where near Mwu.
Mu is Neo and Neo is Mu.
The only difference is that Mu is who he is, while Neo is Mu with amnesia and a touch of brainwashing to make him think he's someone else.
Thus, their combat styles are the same.

second Dubbed isnt Official and the only official subs are on the dvd which are still different from what you hear in a dubbed version, so...
A dub is official. It comes from the official DVDs, translated by the people Bandai hired to translate the series, translating from the script released by Bandai so they could translate the series into another language in the first place.
The only thing is that a dub actually watches the lip flaps so a character won't look like they were dubbed from a bad Godzilla movie - so exact wording is changed slightly in those cases... but the meaning is always left intact.

And even then, it doesn't change the fact that a dub (especially in recent years) is official because the company that licensed the anime released it, and the company who owns the anime approves of the translation - a process started long ago with the localization of Evangelion by ADV.
And since Gundam is translated by the same company that makes it... it's even easier to confirm or deny if a line needs to be rewritten.

[Red Zaku]

so your telling me kira lays back in his cock pit and let the gundam do all the work.

Yes, that's exactly what he does when he get shte Freedom and S-Freedom. Apart from fighting Rau, and the Druggies Kira phoned it in with the Freedom. That's precisely why Shinn embarasses him so badly in 34. And then Kira phones it in again when he confronts Shinn in Destiny for the first time. Kira strips Shinn of his last close combat weapon in the Palma Fiocina but instead of exploiting that to disable Shinn he lets a SEED mode Shinn dictait the pace of the fight and thus the two end up exchanging beam rifle fire to little to no effect. Shinn out of necessity, Kira out of stupidity because he wouldn't press an advantage he clearly had.

sorry but thats a load of sh....its true that the gundams are easier to controll but that doesnt deny the strength of the gundam.

Wait, weren't you supposed to be suggesting Kira was what made the Freedom and S-Freedom good, and not the other way around? You just basically conceeded it's all on the gundam after declaring above that it wasn't all on the Gundam.


now i said his first few battles were'nt that impressive. and what does it matter if they didnt fight him together.

Because it's very hard to claim Kira is more skilled the Heero when Kira has never been put through the "ringer" like Heero has in his series.

and then you have to put this in perspective, this kid never piloted a mobile suit/ gundam ever in his life.

>.> Kira has experience with MS before if you paid attention to the first episode you'd note Kira and his friends were actually working on what was in affect a CE version of a Junior Mobile. Which is basically a scalled down mobile suit. That's how Kira knew how to re-write the Strike's OS because he's already had experience writing such systems for smaller versions of mobile suits basically worker units.

if he is as sorry as you portray why is he appear better than the pilots he fights.

They don't. Miguel would have killed Kira if he had a weapon that could damage Strike, and when he finally gets the Heavy Ion Cannon it's clear the weapon is too cumbersome to keep up with the Strike's movement. But Kira still struggles with Miguel, and Aegis. For most of the very early fights Kira is pitted against Athrun who's never taking him seriously either as Athrun spends most of their fights trying to persuade Kira into joining ZAFT. The few victories he does score over the La Krueset team come in the form of blindsiding Yzak and Nicol who were both focusing on the Archangel.

now i cant be because of his gundam because each of there gundams consisted of the same power/potential .

Maybe you were watching a different Gundam. >.> Kira struggles against Miguel who doesn't have a weapon that can scratch him. He doesn't fight anyone but Athrun until episode 5 and then all that happens is Yzak launches a Grenade at him. You know a weapon that literally does nothing to Phaseshift Armor. Kira then fights Nicol who has trouble taking down the Archangel even when he's cloaked, and who's constantly teased about his lack of skill by Yzak and Dearka. And the one episode he gives YZak his scar it's because he blindsides Yzak.

when kira returns to save lacus he wasnt carring about that gundam, he wasnt even dodgeing the attacks.

>.> DO you mean when he stole Strike briefly and turned Lacus back over to Athrun? Because... ya know no one shot at him once. Of if you mean when Kira first saved Lacus in the escape pod? Because then he took down a RECON GiNN which has no weapons that could damage Strike.

With this comment you split up my two senteces and commented on them both, kira's pure instict against Heero's use of the Zero system ( endless waltz) makes kira a better pilot to me.

>.> How do you figure? Not ethe Zero System doesn't have Pre-cognition it presents EVERY outcome of the fight and every move leading up to it to the pilot. IT's Kira's instinct to choose the most likely attack and counter it. >.>

you have to understand that kira has been in a gundam for 2 1/2 years maybe between both GS & GSD,

Of course Kira wasn't in a Gundam between the end of SEED and the Begining of Destiny. He's not in a Gundam in Destiny until 10 episodes in?

His presents on the battle field brings either terror or full out anger knowing that they cant win this fight.

>.> No it didn't. In fact 9 times out of 10 it just ended up annoying people or got attention because it missed with beam spam. Rarely ever did anyone gawk and go ZOMG FREEDOM WE ARE DOOMED! At least so far as the named characters go but then the grunts seemingly froze in place for anyone in SEED and Destiny.


those who have tried... failed. and all this with out A.I. [QUOTE]

>.>
List of Kira's failures in Gundam SEED:
Episode 29. Kira kills Nicol Athrun stops taking it easy on him and self detonates the Aegis Gundam on Strike's open cockpit Protected by a shudder which litterally disapears because of the force of the blast Kira is sidelined for a good while.
Episode 39. Kira gets bounced around more then a basketball at a Globe Trotters game by the Druggies before Athrun shows up to help lighten Kira's load.
Episode 40. Back to back Kira has serious trouble dealing with the Druggies until once agian Athrun shows up allowing Kira to lessen the number of enemies he has to take on.
Episode 43. Kira again get's bounced around by the druggies this time by Clotho and Shani.
Episode 44 &45 Druggies once again give Kira a hard time, and Kira hits his worst spot against the druggies in 45 where Raiders hammer ends up knocking Freedom's head off.
Episode 50 For most of this episode Rau is basically using Freedom for target practice. Kira winning by viture of Rau being an ass and killing Fllay. Without that spark Kira is basically screwed.

Kira's failures in Destiny
Episode 34. Shinn just out classes him start to finish in this one culminating in Freedom getting completely blown up.
Episode 39. Finally getting back into space to pick up S-Freedom Kira is out matched by Grunts in the newly re-colored Strike Rouge. Kira ends up getting the mobile suit destroyed and nearly losing his life.
Episode 42. Kira shows up, robs Shinn of litterally all but one of his Melee weapons and fails miserably to press said advantage. He ends up fighting Shin to a draw when he's ordered to retreat in the TV series do to power loss, but in the moves do to weapons shortage.

http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/gundam.htm
List of full episode summaries on MAHQ.

[QUOTE]when i say protect im talking about his peoples pride or home.

And? Shinn is fighting to protect innocent people form being hurt by war. I'd say that's more noble then if you're suggesting all of Kira's reasons come from selfish motivation.

when he fought before the S.Freedom his main focus was on the archangel or another gundam. he never had a fight that was strictly him fighting a one on one battle until he got his S.Freedom.

Proof? >.> Anywhere?

i never said anything arguing this fact, except the fact that he did not program his gundam to aim specifiicly at joints.

Of course he does. >.> Because every episode you see him spam all you see is the computer locking on to little dots on it's radar orb.Clearly Kira had to have programmed in to aim at joints or all those auot lock spam shots would be cockpit seeking. As they aren't he had to have programmed Freedom to attack joints only. Unless he mutli-locked all those enemies for no reason?

if that was the case why need a pilot.

Well he still needs to pull the trigger and make sure Freedom is floating there in one place.

why not send gundams off into space to fight on there own.

>.> Because there is no AI control system for mobile suits in SEED until Stargazer. And even then it's a self learning AI so it takes time to actually figure out how to manipulate a mobile suit.

like a great gundam pilot once said 'its not the gundam, but the pilot" in heero's case in the wing zero, it was the gundam

>.> Yes because Heero doesn't fight effectively in a Leo, the Mercurius, Wing Gundam or Epyon either despite us posting links that prove he does. Meanwhile Kira is getting his ass kicked in and out of anything that isn't named FREEDOM. And you're saying Heero would lose if not for Zero? I'm sorry but you seem to be ignoring litterally everything that's been said and shown on screen and in the provided clips and topics.

like i said, im not denying the fuction of the dragoons. but to push this farther kira isnt a normal pilot at all, so would it make sence that a better pilot would be able to make better use of this function.

>.> Kira dodges aside from this he's little better then the grunts he faces off against.

and who's to say that the way kira uses the dragoons would look or react the same as if a normal pilot used them...

They're computer controlled. >.> They'd operate according to their programming no matter who used them. That's the idea of making them usable for everyone. Hence why I provided the summary in the first place.

its a source site....half the things they get come from other official and non official site such as mahq.net so you cant just blow off wikipedias information simply because you dont agree,

Wikipedia anyone can edit to say anything. Such as the example I pointed out of the Orihime article previously listing her ocupation as that of a whore, or listing Naruto as mentally retarded. >.> MAHQ takes ewverything from official sources. If it's on MAHQ then it's come from one or more verifiable sources. Mostly from tech books or model kit manuels which bandai tends to list specs in.

[NeoChaos]

i Dont see where your getting your observations from, so far all i here is speculations and what you guys "think is going on" you brought me proof that kira is a new type, you showed me video of wing fighting enemys that seem do what the enemys kira is fighting. the best fights wing has had are one on one fights http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxhlitEctz0



half of kira best moves were in GS, and there clips in here where he did fight athrun, Yzak and Dearka at the same time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPDtH3r5ZHo

kira's the first coordinator to go seed
He's Considered to be the only Ultimate coordinator
He's Only pilot to use seed factor without any emotional & Physical strength
still a rookie, he took out commander Andrew Waltfeld (a coordinator) and his TMF/A-803 LaGOWE along with his team and there TMF/A-802 BuCUE's showing mad skill in the process i believe its episodes 18 and 21 in GS


ep 16 prt 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MuLxIk1tmeI&feature=related
1:20
4:46


ep 18 Prt 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u0StLgFTkcU&amp;feature=related
5:00
6:30


Ep 21 PRT 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfuNdPgen1E
1:03
2:15

ep 25
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lwvIidCwDNg&amp;feature=related
2:23

Ep 27
http://youtube.com/watch?v=heaKVUH5V-c&feature=related
1:06
5:30

i put these video's up to show that he's not getting his ass kicked in anything but the freedom, he doesnt need the dragoons targeting system, he's barely half way through the season and seems to be a promising pilot. Also to show that he's not fighting just one person at a time and that all his enemys are not "grunts"

As the season drifts over into destiny kira only gets better, focusing on disabling his enemys quick and conserving more energy.

this video is to show kira is doing everthing to get cagali to orb and protect the archangle.parts 2 and 3 continue to show kira protecting the archangel while fighting shinn.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFzUGrE0mBg&amp;feature=related

clip of shinn running a simulator and they talk mor of kira's skill that the freedom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFzUGrE0mBg&amp;feature=related
6:29

a vid of kira not getting his ass kicked and not using dragoons
and over powering Athrun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eFkLm2xlYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkTskMnROzU
7:55