Gundam Battle: Freedom vs Wing Zero

[NeoChaos]

I'll be back in about 1 hour.

[Red Zaku]

i Dont see where your getting your observations from, so far all i here is speculations and what you guys "think is going on" you brought me proof that kira is a new type,

Yep that qoute Rau and Mwu are the last newtypes in CE sure sounds to me like Kira is a newtype. >.>


you showed me video of wing fighting enemys that seem do what the enemys kira is fighting.

What are you talking about? >.> Kira kicks grunt ass and spams them? That's proof he's a newtype? How?

the best fights wing has had are one on one fights

Ummm Serpents vs. Gundam pilots. Heero in Leo vs. Army of Mobile Dolls Heero in Wing Gundam vs. Army of Mobile Dolls, Heero in Epyon vs. Army of mobile dolls, Heero in Wing Gundam vs. Army of Mobile Dolls plus Tallgeese. Kira has faced his fair share of grunts and he's taken out huge numbers of enemy units in a Leo for god sake. He was able to stand up to a horde of Mobile Dolls in a freakin' Leo. Heero can't stand up to a handful of Grunts in Strike Rouge.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxhlitEctz0

So because the person montaged Freedom's fights Kira = Newtype? And your logic is?


[half of kira best moves were in GS, and there clips in here where he did fight athrun, Yzak and Dearka at the same time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPDtH3r5ZHo

>.> That video prove she fought them all at once? No it doesn't. It proves he kicked Buster off it's Guul. It doesn't show Kira fighting more then Nicol and Athrun which we already knew he did. Just like we already knew Nicol was a horrible pilot. The only other time it shows Aegis, Buster, and Duel on screen is during the attack on the EA fleet which was protecting the Archangel as it reentered Earth's atmosphere. Kira didn't directly engage all of them at once or even three of them. In fact the most contact he has with Yzak is when Yzak shoots the shuttle full of Orb Civilians.

kira's the first coordinator to go seed[/QUOTE

SEED mode is defined at the Physical Representation of Surpassing ones limits. AKA a ceap knock off of Super Sayian except no cool transformation or hair color change. Kira is just fighting his best in SEED mode that's all it represents. Bragging about how Kira had to push himself beyond his limits so early in the series is not necessarily a good thing to be bragging about either. >.>

[QUOTE]He's Considered to be the only Ultimate coordinator

>.> Did you even pay attention to the plot of SEED? Ultimate Coordinator was a project started by Kira's father to make a Coordinator that was born exactly like he was supposed to be. Because if you remember earliar in SEED is was explained some Coordinators don't come out like they should because of interaction with the mothers womb. Hence as Rau then explains in 44/45 Coordinatod parents would throw their children away because they didn't look right. Hence the UC project was just an effort to produce Children who came out exactly as they were supposed to. All the title of Ulimate Coordinator means is Kira looks exactly as he was supposed to. And Kira isn't the only person to be born from the project. He has a semi-half brother Canard Pars.

He's Only pilot to use seed factor without any emotional & Physical strength

Wait what? Kira goes into SEED mode for most of the original after being pushed so far he gets either angry or really insanely desperate.

still a rookie, he took out commander Andrew Waltfeld (a coordinator) and his TMF/A-803 LaGOWE along with his team and there TMF/A-802 BuCUE's showing mad skill in the process i believe its episodes 18 and 21 in GS

Kira wasn't still a rookie he'd had a good chunk of space battle under his belt by that time, and he was facing off against BuCUE's who were only screwing around with Kira in order to test his skills Waltfeld for the first few episodes was just gathering data on the Strike and it's pilot so he could fight Kira with the LaGOWE.




>.> He was good in Strike early on. Note did I even list any of these episodes? That doesn't change the fact in Destiny he clearly gets destroyed by a handful of grunts in the Rouge, and he still gets bounced around in all the episodes I listed by the Druggies or Rau.

[QUOTEhe doesnt need the dragoons targeting system, he's barely half way through the season and seems to be a promising pilot.

>.> He's never faced off against a single enemy until the LaGOWE whos' had a weapon that can damage Strike and isn't taking it easy on him.

Also to show that he's not fighting just one person at a time and that all his enemys are not "grunts"

So to prove his enemies aren't grunts you're only showing highlights of the series? >.> Despite several of those moments being fights against glorified grunts?

[NewtypeS3]

i Dont see where your getting your observations from, so far all i here is speculations and what you guys "think is going on"
I don't know about Red, but I've been using the Oxford Dictionary for definitions of words uttered - such as the word 'again' being used about Kira's fighting. You know, something that establishes that he wasn't starting, but resuming.

you brought me proof that kira is a new type,
...except it's not proof when the director himself says he isn't. Repeatedly.

you showed me video of wing fighting enemys that seem do what the enemys kira is fighting.
...I notice how you don't expand upon that. 'Do what the enemys kira is fighting' is extroadinarily vague, not to mention an incomplete thought and a sentance fragment.
As for their movements and what the respective grunts do... I hate to say it, but Mobile Dolls actually dodge incoming fire when it could hurt them.*
Not to mention, their return fire is actually strong enough to be a threat - not to mention they actually return fire in the first place.**

the best fights wing has had are one on one fights http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxhlitEctz0
...and this AMV has what to do with Wing?
Sure, it's a nice song put to decent-quality clips from Seed... but there's nothing there about the one-on-one fights from Wing.
Besides, the one-on-one fights merely highlight the skills of the pilots in Wing. Wing's pilots being able to survive the masses of Mobile Dolls sent after them, while hundreds of other pilots in similar units would be unable to even do anything, and survive? Yeah, that's skill.

half of kira best moves were in GS, and there clips in here where he did fight athrun, Yzak and Dearka at the same time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPDtH3r5ZHo
...goodie, another AMV that links together random clips from Gundam Seed to an overplayed Linkin Park song.
Look, I may have used AMVs in my evidence - but I used them only when the clips came straight out of the series itself without being altered. Kira never fought against Dearka, Yzak and Athrun at the same time in Seed, all thanks to Dearka continually being in a bizarre chess match with Mu the whole time in space - and Dearka being little more than a turret while on Earth.
And even then, the EW fights AMV was backed up by actual in-series evidence that I actually provided after to prove the AMVs were unaltered. You've done no such thing, nor do these focus entirely on Kira, nor do they contain much other than 'look at the Cosmic Era do things.'
If you're going to use clips to back yourself up, please show what moments you want us to see, then describe why. Don't post random clips - it doesn't help your case.

kira's the first coordinator to go seed
...that we know of.
Of course, since it's just a physical representation of surpassing one's limitations and turns Kira into a good pilot, I don't see how it's anything remarkable.

He's Considered to be the only Ultimate coordinator
...which means absolutely nothing in a fight. Know why? Look here:
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/glossary_misc.html#ultimate
The final goal of the genetic engineers who created the Coordinators. Although Coordinators are mentally and physically superior to ordinary humans, their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator, whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Of the countless embryos which Hibiki used as test subjects for this artificial womb, his son Kira Yamato is believed to be the only survivor.
This means that Kira is the perfect test-tube baby for vain parents (remember Ms. Shallow who whined about her baby, screaming "it's eyes are the wrong color!" back in Seed?) - such as coming with brown hair, purple eyes, pale skin and the ability to sound like a dying horse when he dies. Had there been anything more special about his genetics, such as better fighting skills, we the audience would have been told about it the moment the Ultimate Coordinator program was revealed.
After all, not even Rau mentioned anything more than Kira being a test-tube baby.

He's Only pilot to use seed factor without any emotional & Physical strength
...what?
Kira was panicked and angry when he first went Seed.
Each subsequent usage of Seed Mode in the first series when Kira was in the Strike? He was either desperately fighting for his life or pissed off beyond belief (such as... when Athrun killed Tolle).
While he may have been 'Mr Calm' those few times during the Freedom, Kira's Seed Mode usage in the final 5 episodes all came from his rage and anger at his opponents, or his desperation to save someone. Such as when Rau killed Fllay - the one moment where he DID hit Seed Mode in that final fight. And this isn't counting Destiny...
Which means either you're saying things at random and trying to make it work... or making things up. I'm thinking the latter.

still a rookie, he took out commander Andrew Waltfeld (a coordinator) and his TMF/A-803 LaGOWE along with his team and there TMF/A-802 BuCUE's showing mad skill in the process i believe its episodes 18 and 21 in GS
Kira, in his first fight with the BuCUEs, had to reprogram the Operating System so he could actually do something against the BuCUEs. Instead of learning how to lead a shot and change the aim manually, like almost any other pilot in existence, Kira reprogrammed the operating system to do it for him.***
In his second fight... Kira had the Seed Mode. Which is nearly a Deus Ex Machina when it comes to piloting skill, to say nothing of the fact that it was Andy's fight to lose.****

ep 16 prt 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MuLxIk1tmeI&feature=related
1:20
4:46
Ok... and what happens at those times? Because I analyzed that same video as a recource below and found that Kira only got 'better' because he programmed his Operating System to pick up for his lack of desert-piloting-experience. Something that any other Gundam Universe would make the pilot adapt to.*****

The same applies to pretty much all the other videos as well, honestly.

i put these video's up to show that he's not getting his ass kicked in anything but the freedom,
He didn't get his ass handed to him all the time in the Strike, sure. But he struggled and improved as a pilot - something everyone does when pushed to their limits. Aside from every single time he reprogrammed the Strike to cover for him on something like aiming over a hot desert or walking on sand, Kira improved in skill.
But he still struggled, because he had a long ways to go before being an 'ace.'

And in the Rouge...?
Well... he scored a few hits, but he also got his ass handed to him quicker than anyone else in Gundam history!******

he doesnt need the dragoons targeting system,
Nor does Heero need the Zero System anymore, but he's still more than willing to utilize it.

he's barely half way through the season and seems to be a promising pilot.
...no one said he wasn't. But a Promising Pilot is still leagues away from 'an Ace' in terms of skill.

Also to show that he's not fighting just one person at a time and that all his enemys are not "grunts"
...no one said he was. However, you claimed he was never fighting one-on-one before the Strike-Freedom, which I proved was blatantly and insanely wrong.
Not to mention this also applies to Heero, who takes down enough grunts to put himself into the top five onscreen Gundam Kills - with a guy like Trowa being the highest at about 155 kills or something like that. It's been a while since I've seen the count.

a vid of kira not getting his ass kicked and not using dragoons
and over powering Athrun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eFkLm2xlYE
...you mean the fight where Kira was in a blatantly better mobile suit, Athrun wasn't trying to fight, and then Athrun randomly froze up when Kira said some nonsence about Cagali crying, letting Kira kick his ass instead of trying to actually fight?
Yeah... not a good indicator of skill.

And clip episodes aren't a good source to use, either. They adjust sequences so they 'look better' so the viewer isn't bored.

[Sources to come next post.]

[NewtypeS3]

And now the sources, thanks to the text limits (thanks to whoever bumped me up to 12,000 items a post, though)...

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjYUJSXUtNQ - later continuing in the opening seconds of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMfnVsWy0fA
@ 6:26, Duo begins his first fight in space with the Deathscythe. Admittedly, Deathscythe is also a bit screwed over in this environment, but notice how Duo only has troubles against the Mobile Dolls... who dodge. And actually move.
@ 6:56, notice how Duo is forced to admit how fast the Taurus MDs are. Much like how nameless grunts love to do for the Freedom and S-Freedom...
@ 7:10, Duo uses the Buster Shield against the Taurus MDs... and misses. Because the MD it was aimed at dodged. Huh.
Really, I don't see how any of the grunts have successfully done this in the Cosmic Era. It should be noted that the Virgo I Dolls dodge less, but this seems to be an effort to move into steamrolling the enemy, rather than anything else - but the Virgo II dolls DO dodge.

** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XAiKrhaXY
@ 0:28, Trowa opens fire on a Virgo II (this one specifically armed with the arm-cannon).
@ 0:29, said Virgo II dodges effortlessly. Something that grunts rarely do - and something that grunts never do in the Cosmic Era. It returns fire...
@ 0:32, ...and completely takes off the right arm of the Heavyarms below the elbow. Main character damage? From a grunt? Inconcievable! And this is before Dorothy starts using the grunts as her personal chess pieces!

*** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuLxIk1tmeI
@ 1:42, notice how Kira couldn't hit a single BuCUE at all during the opening of the clip, no matter how many times he repeated it? And how the Launcher Strike could barely move? Well... notice how Kira's now reprogramming the Strike.
@ 1:51, the Strike begins adapting to the environment around it... thanks to Kira programming it to. Unlike every other pilot in Gundam, who would adapt to the surroundings themselves.
@ 2:05, the Strike is now revealed to be the overpowered monster it was in Space, thanks to those few OS adjustments. After all, while the BuCUEs are fast... they have few weapons that work on the Strike and poor pilots.
Not exactly the bext example of Kira being 'awesome.'

**** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfuNdPgen1E
First thing to note... Kira's in the Aile Strike, something far more agile and deadly than the Launcher. At the very least, Kira's learning something.
@ 7:21, Kira and Andy finally start their fight. It's technically 2-on-1, because Andy has a co-pilot, Aisha. She's doing the rest of the weapons, letting Andy focus on piloting. The first move... is to take out the Strike's beam rifle.
@ 7:26, Kira scores a hit on the LaGOWE, but only takes off a stabilizing wing and one of the cannons - as well as a leg, but the LaGOWE can still move well. No major damage. Strike is running lower and lower on power.
@ 8:06, Strike's power is critical.
@ 8:52, Kira claims that Andy has 'lost,' but Andy keeps fighting. Takes off a stabilizing wing from the Aile Pack.
@ 9:00, Strike's power is gone, running on emergency backups. No beam weaponry, no Aile usage. Only the Armor Schniders are left as viable weapons.
@ 9:03, dirt and sand flying into an open spot on the armor of the LaGOWE furthers damage, causing the 'oh crap' sparks in the mobile suit... but Andy still has the advantage if he plays it smart.
@ 9:15, Kira enters Go... Seed Mode.
@ 9:19, both charge at one another - Andy with the better reach, Kira in a berserker state because of his Seed Mode.
@ 9:25, Andy chooses to lose the fight by not charging in from a slightly different angle - such as he did at 8:52. Kira stabs right near the cockpit... essentially a lucky shot that Andy gave him.
Seriously, though Andy talked a big fight... he sure gave in worse than a fixed boxing match.

***** I would use video clips, but there are no videos for Gundam X up on YouTube. Thus, I resort to MAHQ's episode summaries, this one for Gundam X, Episode 12: It's my Best Work.
http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/x/gxep12.htm
Garrod pushes forward with his thrusters, but he falls into the snow. Kid tells Garrod to use the divider, and Garrod uses its thrusters to hover past the Frost brothers and open fire with his beam machine gun. Shagia jumps to attack, but Garrod predicts the move and blasts the Gundam Virsago. Everyone on the bridge is amazed by Garrod's skills, and Jamil says that he's a genius of adaptability.
That's right. Garrod Ran ADAPTS TO COMBAT ON SNOW without changing his mobile suit's operational parameters. He adapts like any other person, by learning. Something Heero does (notice how he keeps gaining ground on Zechs, their 'fights' never 'ending' the same way twice), something Amuro does... something just about every Gundam main does.
Kira? He reprograms the OS to compensate for him.

****** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzg0Foz8gfw
@ 0:59, Kira shows up into combat with that big ol' booster. In the Strike Rouge, so we know this won't last long.
@ 1:08, after three shots that hit nothing, Kira finally nails... the gunbarrel of a Launcher ZAKU. Which doesn't impair the suit at all, seeing how it still has the beam rifle, grenades and melee weaponry.
@ 1:10, two more shots... two limbs off suits. One off a GOUF, one off a ZAKU. Neither are impaired in combat and can continue fighting. Debatable for the GOUF, though, considering it needs both arms to be effective.
@ 1:25, Kira shows actual attempts at skill. Four shots rapid-fire... one ZAKU head down, three other hits of negligable damage.
@ 1:33, Kira tries to block a Launcher ZAKU's gun... which has been shown to do little damage to battleships like the Eternal, thanks to Seed's final battles at Jachin Due. Loses his shield and both arms. Whoops.
Let's put it this way: Kira has some skills. I've never argued he doesn't. However, Kira's best talents lie in getting someone else to do the hard work for him: programming the MS to do what he himself cannot.
He's also not too bright if he actually purposely put himself in the line of fire like that when the Eternal is surprisingly sturdy, as shown a few minutes ago in that very same episode.

[NeoChaos]

I don't know about Red, but I've been using the Oxford Dictionary for definitions of words uttered - such as the word 'again' being used about Kira's fighting. You know, something that establishes that he wasn't starting, but resuming.


...except it's not proof when the director himself says he isn't. Repeatedly.

i left out Not my b

...I notice how you don't expand upon that. 'Do what the enemys kira is fighting' is extroadinarily vague, not to mention an incomplete thought and a sentance fragment.
As for their movements and what the respective grunts do... I hate to say it, but Mobile Dolls actually dodge incoming fire when it could hurt them.*
Not to mention, their return fire is actually strong enough to be a threat - not to mention they actually return fire in the first place.**

Doesnt look like that when i see it.


...and this AMV has what to do with Wing?
Sure, it's a nice song put to decent-quality clips from Seed... but there's nothing there about the one-on-one fights from Wing.
Besides, the one-on-one fights merely highlight the skills of the pilots in Wing. Wing's pilots being able to survive the masses of Mobile Dolls sent after them, while hundreds of other pilots in similar units would be unable to even do anything, and survive? Yeah, that's skill.

The link i place up there was just too close to my comment.


goodie, another AMV that links together random clips from Gundam Seed to an overplayed Linkin Park song.
Look, I may have used AMVs in my evidence - but I used them only when the clips came straight out of the series itself without being altered. Kira never fought against Dearka, Yzak and Athrun at the same time in Seed, all thanks to Dearka continually being in a bizarre chess match with Mu the whole time in space - and Dearka being little more than a turret while on Earth.
And even then, the EW fights AMV was backed up by actual in-series evidence that I actually provided after to prove the AMVs were unaltered. You've done no such thing, nor do these focus entirely on Kira, nor do they contain much other than 'look at the Cosmic Era do things.'
If you're going to use clips to back yourself up, please show what moments you want us to see, then describe why. Don't post random clips - it doesn't help your case.

I only placed two amv's up and the rest are strait episodes with the exact same scenes.

...that we know of.
Of course, since it's just a physical representation of surpassing one's limitations and turns Kira into a good pilot, I don't see how it's anything remarkable.

Heero never achieved, am i wrong? if its not that great why can't some one of heero's talents reach this level? facts please..



...what?
Kira was panicked and angry when he first went Seed.
Each subsequent usage of Seed Mode in the first series when Kira was in the Strike? He was either desperately fighting for his life or pissed off beyond belief (such as... when Athrun killed Tolle).
While he may have been 'Mr Calm' those few times during the Freedom, Kira's Seed Mode usage in the final 5 episodes all came from his rage and anger at his opponents, or his desperation to save someone. Such as when Rau killed Fllay - the one moment where he DID hit Seed Mode in that final fight. And this isn't counting Destiny...
Which means either you're saying things at random and trying to make it work... or making things up. I'm thinking the latter.

Again if you watch most of my videos you can see that at the middle and towards the end of seed he can control his seed factor without emotional or physical distress, and this plays out through the destiny series.

Kira, in his first fight with the BuCUEs, had to reprogram the Operating System so he could actually do something against the BuCUEs. Instead of learning how to lead a shot and change the aim manually, like almost any other pilot in existence, Kira reprogrammed the operating system to do it for him.***
In his second fight... Kira had the Seed Mode. Which is nearly a Deus Ex Machina when it comes to piloting skill, to say nothing of the fact that it was Andy's fight to lose.**** now you dont make sence at all in this comment seriously you sound like the biggest fan boy, i watched Gundam wing and i love the series, even Heero configures his gundam. its not to make there gundams fight for them. its to bring compatiblity between the pilot and the MS/Gundam.....its called adapting.


Ok... and what happens at those times? Because I analyzed that same video as a recource below and found that Kira only got 'better' because he programmed his Operating System to pick up for his lack of desert-piloting-experience. Something that any other Gundam Universe would make the pilot adapt to.*****

The same applies to pretty much all the other videos as well, honestly.


He didn't get his ass handed to him all the time in the Strike, sure. But he struggled and improved as a pilot - something everyone does when pushed to their limits. Aside from every single time he reprogrammed the Strike to cover for him on something like aiming over a hot desert or walking on sand, Kira improved in skill.
But he still struggled, because he had a long ways to go before being an 'ace.'

What slack? again its simply called adapting and compatibilty, he took his ms that wasnt made for that type of combat, and took out a trained team including there commander. who was also a coordinator himself.

And in the Rouge...?
Well... he scored a few hits, but he also got his ass handed to him quicker than anyone else in Gundam history!****** again kira didnt care what happend to that gundam what so ever, his main goal was to get to lacus, If you watch it closely you can see that he wasnt attempting to dodge none what so ever.


...no one said he was. However, you claimed he was never fighting one-on-one before the Strike-Freedom, which I proved was blatantly and insanely wrong.
Not to mention this also applies to Heero, who takes down enough grunts to put himself into the top five onscreen Gundam Kills - with a guy like Trowa being the highest at about 155 kills or something like that. It's been a while since I've seen the count.
no. i said that kira did more than fight one on one, i was told that he never fought against more than one fighter at a time until the s.freedom


...you mean the fight where Kira was in a blatantly better mobile suit, Athrun wasn't trying to fight, and then Athrun randomly froze up when Kira said some nonsence about Cagali crying, letting Kira kick his ass instead of trying to actually fight?
Yeah... not a good indicator of skill.

actualy athrun was handleing his own until he met up with kira.


And clip episodes aren't a good source to use, either. They adjust sequences so they 'look better' so the viewer isn't bored.

[Sources to come next post.]

so your amv's showing the power of wing gundam/custom are exceptable. but when i show the actual episode its NOT a good source. and i used the dubbed versions since you guys have proven to me that its "Official"

[NeoChaos]

Yep that qoute Rau and Mwu are the last newtypes in CE sure sounds to me like Kira is a newtype. >.>




What are you talking about? >.> Kira kicks grunt ass and spams them? That's proof he's a newtype? How?



Ummm Serpents vs. Gundam pilots. Heero in Leo vs. Army of Mobile Dolls Heero in Wing Gundam vs. Army of Mobile Dolls, Heero in Epyon vs. Army of mobile dolls, Heero in Wing Gundam vs. Army of Mobile Dolls plus Tallgeese. Kira has faced his fair share of grunts and he's taken out huge numbers of enemy units in a Leo for god sake. He was able to stand up to a horde of Mobile Dolls in a freakin' Leo. Heero can't stand up to a handful of Grunts in Strike Rouge.




So because the person montaged Freedom's fights Kira = Newtype? And your logic is?




>.> That video prove she fought them all at once? No it doesn't. It proves he kicked Buster off it's Guul. It doesn't show Kira fighting more then Nicol and Athrun which we already knew he did. Just like we already knew Nicol was a horrible pilot. The only other time it shows Aegis, Buster, and Duel on screen is during the attack on the EA fleet which was protecting the Archangel as it reentered Earth's atmosphere. Kira didn't directly engage all of them at once or even three of them. In fact the most contact he has with Yzak is when Yzak shoots the shuttle full of Orb Civilians.



>.> He was good in Strike early on. Note did I even list any of these episodes? That doesn't change the fact in Destiny he clearly gets destroyed by a handful of grunts in the Rouge, and he still gets bounced around in all the episodes I listed by the Druggies or Rau.

[QUOTEhe doesnt need the dragoons targeting system, he's barely half way through the season and seems to be a promising pilot.

>.> He's never faced off against a single enemy until the LaGOWE whos' had a weapon that can damage Strike and isn't taking it easy on him.



So to prove his enemies aren't grunts you're only showing highlights of the series? >.> Despite several of those moments being fights against glorified grunts?[/QUOTE]

1st Kira became great through out the end of GS and got better through GSD

2nd and when have actual episode become highlights, oh wait its because it proves you wrong.

come on people you guys were giving me good stuff when we started, i actually had to go back and do some homework......but now your starting to sound weak and childish. when amvs or videos show how impressive the wing is, its all good. but once clip/actual episodes of kira go up its not legit enough.

come on

[Red Zaku]

Heero never achieved, am i wrong? if its not that great why can't some one of heero's talents reach this level? facts please..

Riddle me this oh great debater. How can Heero achieve SEED Mode as it's not present in his timeline? There is no physical representation of surpassing a person's limits in Gundam Wing hence Heero can't visibly show when he's fighting beyond his normal abilities.

Again if you watch most of my videos you can see that at the middle and towards the end of seed he can control his seed factor without emotional or physical distress, and this plays out through the destiny series.

>.> We did watch your Video's it's not the case. Kira is up against at wall in all of those scenes or he's fighting hard to protect someone. He doesn't spam SEED mode at will until Destiny which is the first time we see it done.

now you dont make sence at all in this comment seriously you sound like the biggest fan boy, i watched Gundam wing and i love the series, even Heero configures his gundam.

Heero can repair his own Gundam. We've never seen him rewrite his Gundam's OS to change it's performance in certain environments. Largely because there is no know Gundam OS in Wing, hence it's impossible to rewrite something that again doesn't exist. Pilots in other Gundam shows literally have no choice but to adapt on their own because they don't have the luxury of making their MS do the work for them like Kira. Again, I'm kinda curious just how much Gundam you've seen because everything you've claimed about the franchise has been either taken directly from SEED and applied to everything, or relies on the idea Kira is just somehow better then all and DRAGOON's are as effective as funnels etc... etc...

its not to make there gundams fight for them. its to bring compatiblity between the pilot and the MS/Gundam.....its called adapting.

>.> Everyone else in Gundam changes their skills to fit the environment. Kira changes his MS to fit his skills. Now who is going to broaden their skills more? The people who push themselves to fight beyond their normal means or the guy who tailors his weapon to fit his skills?


What slack? again its simply called adapting and compatibilty, he took his ms that wasnt made for that type of combat, and took out a trained team including there commander. who was also a coordinator himself.

>.> Coordinator? Rau? What? Hell no he's not a Coordinator. Or do you mean Andy?

again kira didnt care what happend to that gundam what so ever, his main goal was to get to lacus, If you watch it closely you can see that he wasnt attempting to dodge none what so ever.[/QOUTE]

What in gods name are you talking about? The AMV? Honestly you're making no sense anymore.

[QUOTE]no. i said that kira did more than fight one on one, i was told that he never fought against more than one fighter at a time until the s.freedom

No, we told you he didn't take on the original ZAFT La Crueset team more then one on one for the early part of SEED. Which is true. The first time he fights them is Nicol and Athrun, and this is well into the mid point of the show. Also fun note Kira has already trounced Nicol and cut Blitz Gundam's arm.

actualy athrun was handleing his own until he met up with kira.

Athrun was chasing Kira around the battlefield trying to get him to stop sticking his nose where it didn't belong then Kira says Cagalli is crying, and Athrun freezes. Kira then uses that moment to dice Saviours limbs off. >.> That's not skill.

so your amv's showing the power of wing gundam/custom are exceptable. but when i show the actual episode its NOT a good source.

>.> Newtype used an AMV which showed the content on one fight unaltered. You showed an AMV that featured a ton of spliced footage and claimed it showed Kira fighting Dearka, Yzak, and Athrun all at once. Impossible since that never happened.

and i used the dubbed versions since you guys have proven to me that its "Official"

I see what you did there. Though the quotes make no sense considering they are official. Who do you trust to translate Japanese? People who do it for free and chose character name spellings based on sound? Or guys paid to do it who've studied the language as part of their job and done so extensively who get all their information approved from the very source of the material they're translating?

1st Kira became great through out the end of GS and got better through GSD

So much better grunts nearly kill him when he pilots Strike Rouge, and he gets obliterated by Shinn. >.> Nice.

2nd and when have actual episode become highlights, oh wait its because it proves you wrong.

What proof? Note all the episodes you posted highlights from are before all the episodes I listed of Kira getting his rear end kicked. x.x So it doesn't actually prove anything wrong. You proved that episodes I didn't list Kira did well. You seem to enjoy ignoring the circumstances around said victories, but you haven't proven anything wrong yet because you've avoided the episodes I listed. In fact you've avoided a lot of the points we made such as Kira getting dominated by grunts in Freedom where as Heero fighting successfully against a gundam with litterally the worst MS in Gundam Wing.

come on people you guys were giving me good stuff when we started, i actually had to go back and do some homework......

You still need to. You proved you don't know what the UC project was about, you thought MS in other timelines had OS, you claimed Kira not being able to go SEED mode was a negative reflection on him when SEED mode isn't even present in his timeline, and tried to suggest you're more skillful if you use the MS to make up for your draw backs rather then trying to overcome your own disadvantages. Oh and you claimed every Gundam pilot Newtype mentioned altered their MS like Kira did. Despite there being no evidence of that at all. And damn impossible without serious overhauls given the circumstances surrounding the lack of an OS like in SEED. >.>


but now your starting to sound weak and childish.

>.> So far your best replies revolved around proving Kira fought people he didn't with a spliced up AMV that makes it look like he took several named pilots on at once. You also tried to prove Heero was a weaker pilot with a whopping total of nothing. In fact you just posted Kira videos and then acted like those videos were definitive proof that Kira was better. You claimed Heero was a bad pilot without the Zero system. We mention Heero holding his own against Altron Gundam with a Leo, and you ignore that. We point out Heero fighting superior Mobile Dolls in a Leo, and Wing Gundam. You ignore that. We mention Kira in a weaker MS than Freedom gets own'd by ZAFT grunts. He does, but you ignore that. >.> So far you've basically ignored as much of our argument as humanly possible.

when amvs or videos show how impressive the wing is, its all good. but once clip/actual episodes of kira go up its not legit enough.

>.> Because you claimed the AMV showed Kira taking on Yzak, Dearka, and Athrun all at the same time. It didn't. It had a bunch of clips spliced together of Kira fighting them all individually. That's completely different from one full unedited clip with music placed to it.

come on

No sir. You come on and start addressing the points we made.


Now onto some more videos to prove Heero's greatness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S3GyfIQI4c&feature=related
8:07-8:15. Heero takes out a small group of Leo's using only a beam saber
9:00-10:00. Heero takes on Wufei and manages to make a damn good fight of it in a Leo. So much so Wufei is only able to get two hits on him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siAjakJU14U
1:17-1:50. Heero is clearly taking place in a large scale battle as part of Trieze Loyalist forces. Guess what he's using? A Leo.
5:09-7:11. Heero still with the same unit is fighting still and clearly not long after the first battle. This puts Heero in constant action with almost no break or rest time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfeQceDZGXw&feature=related
:00-1:58 Continued from the end of the last video Heero is still engaged with the same forces and still in a Leo. >.> so much for not being able to adapt without Zero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1lwRKDCbcg&feature=related
1:13-1:59 Heero fights the new Virgos in the same Leo he's been using all episode sans arm do to damage taken in previous video.
3:29-4:10 Heero ends up facing down a large contingent of Mobile Dolls as the sole survivor of his unit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej4uEntw4wA&feature=related
2:50-2:57. Heero shows up and ends up saving the life of a Trieze loyalist.
5:52-6:47. Heero engages enemy mobile dolls and recieves damages which hamper his mobilty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsZCfPwmD2A&feature=related
1:11-1:52. Heero's taken Zero as far as he can go. He'll be given Epyon in this episode and preceed to annihilate everyone in sight.

[NeoChaos]

i was speaking of commander Andy...

this video is episode 29, and it shows the full fight between kira, Yzak and his boys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6t0BJdKS90&feature=related


I've watched heero fight and there's nothing for me to address. i've never denyed any of the abilities he has. i agree that heero is a bad ass. his character is tough, his mind set is strong. I Just dont see that as enough to beat Kira. Heero shows versitility as he is able to perform well in many MS', but if you look at it this way, it should be easier to controll such a simple MS..(.not to knock heero but I dont believe wufei's intention was to kill heero it seemed to be a test of skill.) Kira hasnt been in many different MS's, but with the different add-ons the strike gundam possesd he showed great versitility as well. the one thing that kira has as an advantage is his seed factor... which isnt restricted to one gundam, and with his ability to study and adapt to battle conditions faster than heero (outside of there original battle suits) kira beats heero...


SEED mode represents the ability for an individual with the SEED factor to enter into a state of enhanced awareness and peak

physical ability. While in this state, the person (usually a mobile suit pilot, but not necessarily) demonstrates heightened

reflexes and extremely quick information processing, and you speak of this as if its not a factor. one thing that the zero system

does different is show the outcome of the battle "if" the pilot follows its directions. might i add victory isnt the only outcome

the ZS shows.

98% of Wing Zero's fights are in space, so there would be no need to change anything to the systems computer, there's nothing to

adapt to.


Kira doesnt configure his gundams OS to fight another MS, but to adapt his MS to the enviorment.

I'll have to upload these vids later on tonight but i wanted to go back to Kira's use of the Dragoons.Dragoons system was made

capable of A.I controll so that average pilots can use them.but it never points out that kira uses the A.I. system. ZAFT developed

the DRAGOON System,and Destiny has data on the behavior of the AI of the DRAGOONs for countermeasure, shinn cant use this date to

counter kira's Dragoons because its completely useless against manually operated Draggons.

if you look at the info the model kits give you, the s.freedom out classes wing zero all the way.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/ZGMF-X20A_Strike_Freedom_Gundam?t=3.


"Strike Freedom's modified "Voiture Lumière" booster engine on its "wings" can generates visual effect similar to ZGMF-X42S

Destiny's Wings of Light. This has been shown to be achievable only when the Strike Freedom deploys all of its DRAGOONs, leaving

the thrusters laid out in the remote weapons' docking sections to create this effect. It is unknown whether it functions in the

same manner as Destiny's "Wings of Light" (which also spread Mirage Colloid gas to create holographic after-images to confuse

enemy radar/pilots when in dogfight)."

According to the model's manual," Strike Freedom's golden joints is used to endure ultra-mobility beyond the limits of its design,

as power is distributed across all parts, producing a luminescent effect in which light is emitted from the variable phase shift

armor of the joints. Also stated, that activating HI-MAT Full Burst mode and using Super DRAGOON at the same time, is virtually

impossible unless the pilot is a super coordinator."

From the High Grade model kit manual," Strike Freedom was completed by the former Clyne Faction led by Lacus Clyne. The manual

states that the Strike Freedom was created by stealing data from the next-generation Second Stage series that was under

development by ZAFT and combined with data from the Freedom which was restored in Orb after the previous war, the Bloody Valentine

War. Further stated, as this hybrid machine is a further power-up of the Freedom, which already surpassed ordinary mobile suits,

no normal human can operate it. when Lacus Clyne finally approved the decision of its developers she gave it to Kira Yamato"


ill be back later on...

[Red Zaku]

this video is episode 29, and it shows the full fight between kira, Yzak and his boys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6t0BJdKS90&feature=related

>.> So your proof that Kira took on Athrun, Yzak, and Dearka all fought Kira together at their best and Kira won is Kira takening Duel and Buster down when they couldn't move and had to ride on slow moving Guul's so they could maintain persuit on the Archangel? >.> The only actual MS to MS combat Kira does in this episode is against Nicol and Athrun, and Nicol clearly fights horribly and we already acknowledged Nicol and Athrun teaming up on Kira and that still fails to change the fact that Athrun wasn't fighting his best on Kira or that Dearka and Yzak were little more then gun turrets in this episode.

I've watched heero fight and there's nothing for me to address. i've never denyed any of the abilities he has.

I'd call making the claim that most of Heero's skill comes from Wing Zero as being a rather huge denial of his piloting abilities.

i agree that heero is a bad ass. his character is tough, his mind set is strong.

He's also a tactical genius. >.> But I guess we're not gonna count that? I mean it's not like infiltrating an OZ base planting bombs in every corner of the base and ever MS without being caught, or alerting anyone isn't insanely skillful, and doesn't show a rather impressive mind? I'm sure Heero's hacking skills also don't display any of his smarts either. >.> You seem to be reducing Heero to the level of strong arm thug.

I Just dont see that as enough to beat Kira. Heero shows versitility as he is able to perform well in many MS', but if you look at it this way, it should be easier to controll such a simple MS.

So, it should be easier to control an MS that's completely inferior to the Altron? That's a joke right? The Leo is over 19 years old by the time it shows up in Endless Waltz. >.> That's right so in Gundam Wing Heero fights relatively effectively against mobile dolls with an MS that's had only one upgrade in some 17 years of military service. Saying it would be easier to control or handle compared to the most cutting edge weapons available sounds like a complete break down of common sense. >.> As technology gets better so to do weapons become better. Hell I'll use the F-15 vs. F-22A argument. Pilots of the F-15 since upgrading to the F-22A raptor have repeatedly stated it's much easier to fly all the information you need is available much faster then in the F-15 and overall it's a better aircraft. >.> Now you're going to argue controls get worse as mobile suits improve? That's seriously backwards logic right there.



>.> Wufei making several stabs at Heero's cockpit which he manages to avoid until the final few minutes isn't displaying an intention to kill? Conversly Heero doesn't seem like he's having much trouble keeping up with an MS that is better then the Leo across the board.

Now here are the TV specs for everything. Why the TV specs? Because the Gundam's stats are ranked as compared to the Leo.

Model number: OZ-06MS
Code name: Leo
Unit type: mobile suit
Manufacturer: OZ (Organization of Zodiac)
Operator(s): OZ; Earth Alliance; civilians
Rollout: AC 175
First deployment: AC 175
Accommodation: pilot only, in standard cockpit in torso
Dimensions: head height 16.2 meters
Weight: empty 7.0 metric tons; max gross weight unknown
Armor materials: titanium alloy
Powerplant: ultracompact fusion reactor, power output rating unknown
Performance ability levels: fighting 100; weapons 100; speed 100; power 100; armor 100

Model number: XXXG-01S2
Code name: Altron Gundam
Unit type: mobile suit
Manufacturer: Master O (with assistance from Doctor J, Professor G, Doktor S and Instructor H)
Operator: Gundam pilots
First deployment: AC 195
Accommodation: pilot only, in standard cockpit in torso
Dimensions: head height 16.4 meters
Weight: empty 7.5 metric tons; max gross weight unknown
Armor materials: gundanium alloy
Powerplant: ultracompact fusion reactor, power output rating unknown
Performance ability levels: fighting 170; weapons 140; speed 130; power 140; armor 120

>.> Altron should dwarf the Leo in terms of fighting capability but in the end, Heero is able to make it look almost easy when he uses a Leo armed only with a beam saber against Wufei and Altron.

[QUOTE] Kira hasnt been in many different MS's, but with the different add-ons the strike gundam possesd he showed great versitility as well.

>.> The Strike is infinately superior to a Leo. A Leo is a 17 year old Grunt suit. The Strike was a cutting edge weapon which was unaffected by every weapon supported by ZAFT's mainstay frontline units except for the BuCUE's head beam saber. Hell, the Strike Rouge is still good enough to best ZAKU's but when placed into the hands of Kira it gets shreaded in seconds. How is this proof Kira is just as good as Heero? Kira has NEVER fought in a grunt MS, and the one time the suit he used might be close to the level of grunts he gets trashed.

the one thing that kira has as an advantage is his seed factor...

How is this an advantage? It's just a way for us to tell Kira is fighting as hard as he possibly can. =/ Heero has the Zero System, and has shown himself to be damn near super human, as commented on mutliple times throughout Gundam Wing.

which isnt restricted to one gundam, and with his ability to study and adapt to battle conditions faster than heero

Except it's NONE OF THOSE THINGS!. >.> It's just a way to show Kira is trying really really really really hard. That's it. It's not a way to show Kira is adapting quicker, it's not a way to show he's better at studying battle conditions. All it is, is a way to show that Kira is trying very hard. That's it. Anyone can try hard, and tlel me how this proves Kira can adapt faster then Heero? Heero has been fighting for 9 years, you're going to make the argument Kira would be able to know more about a fight then Heero? That's a little absurd don't you think?

(outside of there original battle suits) kira beats heero...

Doubtful. To say the least, since you seem to greatly misunderstand what SEED mode is. Not to mention you're supposed to prove how Kira would win against Zero. Something you still haven't done yet either. >.> Though I'm pretty sure Newtype and myself have provided more then enough proof illustrating Heero is a damn good pilot and that Zero has the mobility, speed, and fire power advantage. To say nothing of the Zero System.

SEED mode represents the ability for an individual with the SEED factor to enter into a state of enhanced awareness and peak

>.> Enhanced awarness and peak. AKA TRYING REALLY HARD. Your proof for this meaning Kira can adapt faster, or analyze the situation faster the Heero who's had more battlefield experience since he was a child, and has fought effectively in Grunt MS as well as incredibly strong MS? >.> This lies where?

physical ability.

So physical ability matters in an MS vs. MS fight how? Not to mention Heero is the same person who's never had a problem resetting his own broken limbs before. >.> He's got Solid Snake like sneaking skills as illustrated by his base bombing in Endless Waltz and he's consistently refered to as the Perfect Soldier. I honestly doubt you get that reputation by being weak in any of the areas you're claiming.

While in this state, the person (usually a mobile suit pilot, but not necessarily) demonstrates heightened

reflexes and extremely quick information processing, and you speak of this as if its not a factor.

Where exactly are you pulling this from? Thin air? Apparently so as the closest entry I found on Gundam Official was this:

Superior
Evolutionary
Element
Destined-factor
(SEED factor) A factor that determines the course of a species' evolution. The existence of the SEED factor has yet to be proven, and it remains a subject of intense controversy in scientific circles. But in theory, those who possess the SEED factor have the ability to advance to the next stage of human evolution - an ability unrelated to whether the carrier is a Natural or a Coordinator.

Now, before you start harping on "Next State of Human Evolution" Let's remember several things about this entry. Unproven, serious controversy, and the words, " IN THEORY!" >.> Now further cautionairy points about trying to use this in your debate, it makes no specific mention of what the next stage of human evolution is. It could mean that if you had the SEED FACTOR you're going to grow a third nipple.

one thing that the zero system
does different is show the outcome of the battle "if" the pilot follows its directions. might i add victory isnt the only outcome

>.> Of course why would Heero not follow the Zero System to victory? Please to be explaining what "if" has to do with anything? Are we now operating under the asusmption Heero is gonna not feel like fighting and give up on his own? Because that's not really a good argument to take in this debate.

the ZS shows.
98% of Wing Zero's fights are in space, so there would be no need to change anything to the systems computer, there's nothing to adapt to.

Of course you're ignoring Heero used other MS before and he's never shown adapting any of them to his style. Rather he adapts to what he's got available to him. That's the point adapting should have nothing to do with the MS and everything to do with the pilot. A good pilot adapts to their machine not the other way around. The other way around is what makes grunt sucks so horribly they rely solely on the ability of the suit they pilot and not on their own skill or ability to push the suit to it's limits.

Kira doesnt configure his gundams OS to fight another MS, but to adapt his MS to the enviorment.

>.> Kira adapted his OS to lead targets for him in the desert because he couldn't adjust his aim do to the heat of the Desert sand throwing off his beam weapons trajectory. See, in previous Gundam series that would be somehting the main character would need to adapt to on his own because such adjustments couldn't be made liek that on the fly. Kira has it insanely easy thanks to this. The same applies to Kira walking on the sand instead of learning how to opperate Strike on Sand he changes the OS to redistribute Strikes Weight so Kira doesn't have to change how he operates the MS.

Dragoons system was made capable of A.I controll so that average pilots can use them.but it never points out that kira uses the A.I. system. ZAFT developed

It points this out in the model kits which contain all of Strike Freedom's official stats. =/ Kira uses the Dragoon's for dummies system same as Chaos Gundam. Precisely why I showed you MAHQ. Not to mention Strike Freedom is based on a design made by ZAFT, which was stolen by Lacus and Terminal and adapted slightly for Kira's use.

[Red Zaku]

Continued from previous post.

the DRAGOON System,and Destiny has data on the behavior of the AI of the DRAGOONs for countermeasure, shinn cant use this date to counter kira's Dragoons because its completely useless against manually operated Draggons.

>.> Of course you blatantly ignore the fact Shinn doesn't fight Freedom in space. THe final battle is between Legend and Freedom. You also seem to be content wih ruling out all other more likely reasons. Such as the idea the patterns very depending on the target selected, and their overall attack pattern is different do to re-programming by Kira to have them fire at the limbs of enemy mobile suits. All of those ideas are MORE likely then Kira = Newtype. Especially given Fukuda has denied Kira is a newtype and all his so called flashes can easily be attributed to Kira just recognizing certian things about the people he's fighting.

Oh and just for the fun of it if you want real newtype moments in a series with no Newtype moments, Zechs in his first attempt to take back the Sanq Kingdom actually halts his attack because he has a newtype flash that the implacement he's charging is about to fire. Yet Zechs is not a newtype, and that actually showed a level of pre-cognition. All of Kira's so called newtype moments in Destiny amount to "sensing" people and the lines don't really make it seem like he's sensing anyone. Just that he's recognizing traits in the people he's fighting that remind him of people who he used to know.

if you look at the info the model kits give you, the s.freedom out classes wing zero all the way.

>.> The link you use completely contradicts well everything mentioned on the subject of S-Freedom so here comes the long exposition where I have to educate you I suppose.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/ZGMF-X20A_Strike_Freedom_Gundam?t=3.

X.x That is quite possibly the worst site I've ever read when it comes to actual information about mobile suits. Why are you even using it? Aboslutely none of it is sourced or supported by the sites he's claiming. In fact he only credits using the scans of the MG manual from Dalong. No actual translations of anykind. O.o;

"Strike Freedom's modified "Voiture Lumière" booster engine on its "wings" can generates visual effect similar to ZGMF-X42S

That's a reference to the Wings of Light, AKA the glowing stuff that extends from S-Freedom, and Destiny's Wings. This has nothing to do with Destiny's after image affect which comes from Mirage Colloid particles emitted through it's wings exhaust. Nice try though.

Destiny's Wings of Light.

An image affect. The Voiture Lumiere is actually a beam solar sail which collects solar winds to accelerate the MS a useless system if you're on Earth but more to the point it doesn't help with mobility in anyway shape of form. It helps with speed in a straight line, and very rarely are battles ever fought in space just by charging relentlessly at each other, and once you're in close quarters combat once again acceleration is completely useless.

This has been shown to be achievable only when the Strike Freedom deploys all of its DRAGOONs, leaving the thrusters laid out in the remote weapons' docking sections to create this effect. It is unknown whether it functions in the same manner as Destiny's "Wings of Light"

It doesn't. Gundam SEED Stargazer explains how they work because S-Freedom and the Stargazer both use the same propulsion system which was originally intended to be used in interstellar travel. Which it's great for. Combat? Not so much, in fact it's completely impractical.

(which also spread Mirage Colloid gas to create holographic after-images to confuse enemy radar/pilots when in dogfight)."

It doesn't. Problem solved. That's a trait limited only to the Destiny Gundam.

According to the model's manual," Strike Freedom's golden joints is used to endure ultra-mobility beyond the limits of its design, as power is distributed across all parts, producing a luminescent effect in which light is emitted from the variable phase shift armor of the joints.

And this was completely retconned by the later Full Burst Model which removed this exposition completely. Next time use a site that's actually up to date. I dunno MAHQ maybe? >.>

Also stated, that activating HI-MAT Full Burst mode and using Super DRAGOON at the same time, is virtually impossible unless the pilot is a super coordinator."

Full Burst mode isn't a high mobility mode. S-Freedom's propulsion system hidden by DRAGOON's is only for acceleration it has nothing to do with mobility. Precisely why in it's specs it says Full Burst replaces the Hi-Mat mode of the original Freedom. S-Freedom sacrifices it's mobility to carry DRAGOON's and move faster in a straight line.

From the High Grade model kit manual," Strike Freedom was completed by the former Clyne Faction led by Lacus Clyne. The manual states that the Strike Freedom was created by stealing data from the next-generation Second Stage series that was under development by ZAFT and combined with data from the Freedom which was restored in Orb after the previous war, the Bloody Valentine War. Further stated, as this hybrid machine is a further power-up of the Freedom, which already surpassed ordinary mobile suits, no normal human can operate it. when Lacus Clyne finally approved the decision of its developers she gave it to Kira Yamato"

>.> No Normal Human can operate it? Sounds like BS on the part of the transcriber. As this is mentioned no where in the official profile on MAHQ.net or Gundam Offcial.

[Biolink]

WTF is a Super Coordinator?

There is only one that was even called something like that IIRC,and that was Canard Pars who I would say if there was such a thing he would be the leading candidate.Didn't the Eurasian Federation used to use torture methods while studying his metabolism and stuff or something like that,so he built up a crazy high amount of Stamina and Endurance,even among Coordinators as a result?

>.> He's got Solid Snake like sneaking skills as illustrated by his base bombing in Endless Waltz and he's consistently refered to as the Perfect Soldier.

!

[NeoChaos]

>.> So your proof that Kira took on Athrun, Yzak, and Dearka all fought Kira together at their best and Kira won is Kira takening Duel and Buster down when they couldn't move and had to ride on slow moving Guul's so they could maintain persuit on the Archangel?

No, thats my proof showing that AMV wasnt as chopped up as you think,and that he actually did fight them together.

>.> The only actual MS to MS combat Kira does in this episode is against Nicol and Athrun, and Nicol clearly fights horribly and we already acknowledged Nicol and Athrun teaming up on Kira and that still fails to change the fact that Athrun wasn't fighting his best on Kira or that Dearka and Yzak were little more then gun turrets in this episode. A figh is a fight, its funny how you downgrade there abilities so that kira's win doesn't count.





I'd call making the claim that most of Heero's skill comes from Wing Zero as being a rather huge denial of his piloting abilities. i would love for you to show me where i said that. i do remember me saying that alot of his most exciting fights came from him piloting the wing zero, and i dont see that as a diss at all.



He's also a tactical genius. >.> But I guess we're not gonna count that? I mean it's not like infiltrating an OZ base planting bombs in every corner of the base and ever MS without being caught, or alerting anyone isn't insanely skillful, and doesn't show a rather impressive mind? I'm sure Heero's hacking skills also don't display any of his smarts either. >.> You seem to be reducing Heero to the level of strong arm thug. because i complimented his abilities? or is this how you feel sence i think kira is a better pilot in his s.freedom than heero in his wing zero/custom


As technology gets better so to do weapons become better. Hell I'll use the F-15 vs. F-22A argument. Pilots of the F-15 since upgrading to the F-22A raptor have repeatedly stated it's much easier to fly all the information you need is available much faster then in the F-15 and overall it's a better aircraft. >.> Now you're going to argue controls get worse as mobile suits improve? That's seriously backwards logic right there. in some cases its true that technology becomes easier to comprehend as time goes on but in most cases its not. ( tv 20 years ago there was a power , channel and volume button, now look at tv's today....big difference kid.




[QUOTE=Red Zaku;17034192]>.> Wufei making several stabs at Heero's cockpit which he manages to avoid until the final few minutes isn't displaying an intention to kill? Conversly Heero doesn't seem like he's having much trouble keeping up with an MS that is better then the Leo across the board. the heero opens his cockpint and wufei does...nothing. if he wanted to kill him he would have done it.



The Strike was a cutting edge weapon which was unaffected by every weapon supported by ZAFT's mainstay frontline units except for the BuCUE's head beam saber. Hell, the Strike Rouge is still good enough to best ZAKU's but when placed into the hands of Kira it gets shreaded in seconds. How is this proof Kira is just as good as Heero?

You keep bringing this up, and im not sure were on the same page...im speaking of GSD EP 39 where he's launched into space to protect lacus.
when we are on the same page i will adress this issue. when did i list this as proof, your the one who brought up this sitsuation.

Kira has NEVER fought in a grunt MS he never had to.



How is this an advantage? It's just a way for us to tell Kira is fighting as hard as he possibly can. =/ Heero has the Zero System, and has shown himself to be damn near super human, as commented on mutliple times throughout Gundam Wing. and where did it say he was fighting his hardest, or where does it say that to achieve seed you must be fighting your hardest.



Except it's NONE OF THOSE THINGS!. >.> It's just a way to show Kira is trying really really really really hard. That's it. It's not a way to show Kira is adapting quicker, it's not a way to show he's better at studying battle conditions. All it is, is a way to show that Kira is trying very hard. That's it. again where does it say anything about kira trying "realy really really really really hard.

and tlel me how this proves Kira can adapt faster then Heero? you're going to make the argument Kira would be able to know more about a fight then Heero? That's a little absurd don't you think? no i dont think thats absurd. i think that your just indenial to the fact that there's some one better than Your Favorite gundam pilot Heero Yuy.ther is no document saying kira is better than heero or is there one showing vice versa. Im making the argument that kira would adapt to the situation faster than heero with out the help of an A.I.

Doubtful. To say the least, since you seem to greatly misunderstand what SEED mode is. Not to mention you're supposed to prove how Kira would win against Zero. Something you still haven't done yet either.

actualy i know enough. The zero system < Seed, there's nothing to prove. The zero systems outcome isnt always victory, it will let the pilot know that defeat is possible.





>.> Though I'm pretty sure Newtype and myself have provided more then enough proof illustrating Heero is a damn good pilot and that Zero has the mobility, speed, and fire power advantage. To say nothing of the Zero System.

not really. all you've done was make it seem as if GS & GSD pilots arent strong,so you can downplay kira's victories. even though every other coordinator on the show has had some form of a military back ground, the "rookie" kira ablilitys still surpasses any average coordinator do to his ability to adapt and comprehend battles. i've showed more than enough proving that most of your statements about kira was wrong and you havent owned up to



Where exactly are you pulling this from? Thin air? Apparently so as the closest entry I found on Gundam Official was this:

Superior
Evolutionary
Element
Destined-factor
(SEED factor) A factor that determines the course of a species' evolution. The existence of the SEED factor has yet to be proven, and it remains a subject of intense controversy in scientific circles. But in theory, those who possess the SEED factor have the ability to advance to the next stage of human evolution - an ability unrelated to whether the carrier is a Natural or a Coordinator.

Now, before you start harping on "Next State of Human Evolution" Let's remember several things about this entry. Unproven, serious controversy, and the words, " IN THEORY!" >.> Now further cautionairy points about trying to use this in your debate, it makes no specific mention of what the next stage of human evolution is. It could mean that if you had the SEED FACTOR you're going to grow a third nipple.

i know what seed is, and its not anything to be taken lightly, it doesnt say that everyone can achieve, it all it says is that its not restricted to just coordinators. and as much as i like this site. it needs a major update.



>.> Of course why would Heero not follow the Zero System to victory? Please to be explaining what "if" has to do with anything? Are we now operating under the asusmption Heero is gonna not feel like fighting and give up on his own? Because that's not really a good argument to take in this debate. i said that it gives both sides of war, victory and defeat, but not as an option to choose from.


>.> Kira adapted his OS to lead targets for him in the desert because he couldn't adjust his aim do to the heat of the Desert sand throwing off his beam weapons trajectory. See, in previous Gundam series that would be somehting the main character would need to adapt to on his own because such adjustments couldn't be made liek that on the fly. Kira has it insanely easy thanks to this. The same applies to Kira walking on the sand instead of learning how to opperate Strike on Sand he changes the OS to redistribute Strikes Weight so Kira doesn't have to change how he operates the MS. and i made a mistake myself in thinking it was the os when it was his controlls he changed. its like playing video games( you set your controller to your style/way of playing instead of the default settings.) this is addressed in episode 27 of gs







It points this out in the model kits which contain all of Strike Freedom's official stats. =/ Kira uses the Dragoon's for dummies system same as Chaos Gundam. Precisely why I showed you MAHQ. Not to mention Strike Freedom is based on a design made by ZAFT, which was stolen by Lacus and Terminal and adapted slightly for Kira's use.

if its ok i would like to see a link showing where it says he uses the auto system instead of using it manually.

the strike freedom was moddified specifically for kira and kira only, so i dought the word "slightly" should be used here.

[Biolink]

and where did it say he was fighting his hardest, or where does it say that to achieve seed you must be fighting your hardest.

Seed=Physical Representation of Surpassing one's limits.

It isn't limited to anybody(Okay well in Seed's case,only limited to the Main Characters).You just have to be super focused,and trying hard.

Even in real life when you are Focused,and Trying hard you can notice a noticeable improvement in whatever you are doing,whether that be sports,academics,relationships,games,etc...

In that sense you would be surpassing your normal limits,since in that instance you usually tune everything else out,and are only focused on one thing.

That doesn't suddenly make Kira,Athrun,Shinn,or any of the other people that got to "use" Seed,super human.It just means that they are focused on the task at hand,so usually with being focused and working hard,improvement also comes along with that.

[NeoChaos]

Seed=Physical Representation of Surpassing one's limits.

It isn't limited to anybody(Okay well in Seed's case,only limited to the Main Characters).You just have to be super focused,and trying hard.

Even in real life when you are Focused,and Trying hard you can notice a noticeable improvement in whatever you are doing,whether that be sports,academics,relationships,games,etc...

In that sense you would be surpassing your normal limits,since in that instance you usually tune everything else out,and are only focused on one thing.

That doesn't suddenly make Kira,Athrun,Shinn,or any of the other people that got to "use" Seed,super human.It just means that they are focused on the task at hand,so usually with being focused and working hard,improvement also comes along with that.


so your telling me that everyone they fought who couldnt or/did not achieve this "EASY" ability wasnt focusing...hmmm.

[Biolink]

so your telling me that everyone they fought who couldnt or/did not achieve this "EASY" ability wasnt focusing...hmmm.

The grunts were so shitty in Seed,I'd like to say,yeah they weren't trying hard enough at times.

And again it's not really an ability(And with that all talent isn't created equally).Even if random military grunts did have "Seed",most of these pilots from a talent perspective(And technology perspective) would be behind Kira and the other main characters.

[NeoChaos]

i know this is off topic.....

i believe GS & GSD used grunts for smaller fight scenes than Gunda wing did.

in GS & GSD the war seemed much bigger, and it involved more actual people rather than A.I controlled MS, not saying all of the MS's in GW were A.I controlled, just that they had more to me.

[Red Zaku]

No, thats my proof showing that AMV wasnt as chopped up as you think,and that he actually did fight them together.

>.> Except he's not. He knocked Dearka and Yzak off their Guuls which removes them from the entire fight. They don't show up at all again in that entire episode. That's not what I call a fight. A fight would imply a prolonged battle between all three characters with none of them going easy on Kira. That never happens.

A figh is a fight, its funny how you downgrade there abilities so that kira's win doesn't count.

It's not a fight when he knocks them off their Guul's and this is enough to completely remove them from the rest of the episode even when the fight progresses to land. Also, I love how you say this but then only a page ago you claimed Heero vs. Wufei shouldn't count as a good example of Heero's skill because you thought Wufei was going easy on him. Despite Wufei making several stabs for Heero's cockpit in that fight.

i would love for you to show me where i said that. i do remember me saying that alot of his most exciting fights came from him piloting the wing zero, and i dont see that as a diss at all.

Only one page ago you claimed Heero gets most of his skill from Wing Zero and the Zero system.

Originally Posted by NeoChaos
like a great gundam pilot once said 'its not the gundam, but the pilot" in heero's case in the wing zero, it was the gundam

because i complimented his abilities? or is this how you feel sence i think kira is a better pilot in his s.freedom than heero in his wing zero/custom

You think that but you've yet to prove it. So far you've tried to prove Kira is a better pilot outside of his S-Freedom. >.> You have no problem using his early fights to prove there in SEED where he has a huge advantage of being invulnerable over most of the people he fights, but then in Destiny where using the Strike puts him on a more even playing field we see him get trashed. Heero by contrast can use the exact same grunt suit as everyone and still have success.

in some cases its true that technology becomes easier to comprehend as time goes on but in most cases its not.

Of course it completely defeats the purpose if in the military it becomes harder to use a weapon. =/ That's just insane. The idea behind them was let's make it harder to operate this MS as we make new ones? The logic there is still horrible because you're still suggesting control was sacrificed for increased performence. That's completely impratical.

( tv 20 years ago there was a power , channel and volume button, now look at tv's today....big difference kid.

>.> Adding more buttons =/= making it harder to use. Especially considering there is still a channel and power button one can still operate a TV without ever using the other functions it's capable of.

.not to knock heero but I dont believe wufei's intention was to kill heero it seemed to be a test of skill.)

So you just claimed it's wrong of me to discount the YZak Dearka vs. Kira moment you sited because of how poor quality the fight was, but a much higher quality and longer lasting fight in Heero vs. Wufei shouldn't count because you don't think Wufei was being serious despite making attacks on Heero's cockpit?

the heero opens his cockpint and wufei does...nothing. if he wanted to kill him he would have done it.

Did you even watch Wing? Wufei is the epitome of the honorable warrior he utterly hates fighting in the cowardly underhanded tactics demanded by operation METEOR. He even berates himself when he conducts the sneak attack to blow up the prototype Taurus Units. Not attacking Heero when he opens his cockpit is part of Wufei's character. It has nothing to do with him going easy in a fight and everything to do with his Pride as a warrior. You'd know this if you watched or paid the remotest attention to his character in Wing. For all of Endless Waltz Wufei is still trying to come to grips with the fact he didn't legitamately beat Trieze in their duel. Do you really think he'd want to defeat someone else in a manner that would leave a doubt in his mind whether he won or not? Your logic completely ignores Wufei's entire character.

You keep bringing this up, and im not sure were on the same page...im speaking of GSD EP 39 where he's launched into space to protect lacus.[/QUOTE

He was so worried about the Archangel the first time he goes SEED mode. This fails to prevent him from taking down both Yzak and Nicol and saving the Archangel from being blown up.

[QUOTE]and where did it say he was fighting his hardest, or where does it say that to achieve seed you must be fighting your hardest.

=/ Mitsuo Fukuda said it. SEED mode if the physical representation of surpassing you're limits. If you actually used the link I provided to AEUGblogspot only two pages ago you would have read all of Fukuda's interviews so this wouldn't even be an issue now.

again where does it say anything about kira trying "realy really really really really hard.

The Link I provided two pages ago where someone askes about SEED mode and Fukuda defines as surpassing ones physical limitations. =/ Next time please for the love of god use the reference materials I provide and maybe analyze them more carefully next time?

no i dont think thats absurd. i think that your just indenial to the fact that there's some one better than Your Favorite gundam pilot Heero Yuy.

>.> Yes, I like Heero so much I named myself Red Zaku after a mobile suit. No, my favorite pilot isn't a Gundam pilot at all. My favorite pilot is Johnny Ridden, followed by Master ****ING ASIA, Domon Kashu, Loren Cehack, and Graham Aker just to name a few. Heero isn't even in my top 10 favorite mobile suit pilots let alone favorite characters. That fails to change the fact the Heero has shown himself capable of doing much more then Kira. Also I kinda love how you want to try and cheapen the debate to petty name calling. Tossing around the concept of being a fanboy because you don't actually have a valid reply doesn't change the fact you've yet to disprove what I said in my previous post.

ther is no document saying kira is better than heero or is there one showing vice versa.

Isn't that precisely why we're having the debate? To prove with evidence based on their respective talents displayed in their respective shows who's better? >.> I thought that was the point? A bit silly to just state the blatantly obvious. Though again you say this, and then only one post before proclaim Kira as better then Heero. How exactly can you be so hypocritical in the same post? It's amazing.

Im making the argument that kira would adapt to the situation faster than heero with out the help of an A.I.

And your proof doesn't adequitely substantiate the claim. In fact it serve sas little more then a filler excuse that because Kira has SEED mode then Kira is better. Despite the fact that Simply because there is no way to represent surpassing your limits in Wing doesn't mean Heero can't do it or hasn't done it previously.


actualy i know enough. The zero system < Seed, there's nothing to prove.

>.> ..........Wow. This is really shaping up to be a fanboy rant. So your proof is, " I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG BECAUSE SEED IS BETTER!" That's it? Your failure to adequitely prove your points does not entitle you in anyway shape or form to some kind of automatic victory.

The zero systems outcome isnt always victory,

The Zero System was developed to be an interactive interface between a human pilot and a Mobile Suit. The system computes the results of possible courses of action, and the pilot considers these and mentally feeds directions back to the system. What this means is that the pilot knows the result of his actions before he performs them.
The system is programmed to think tactically, so that the options that it feeds the pilot might include civilian death or unnecessary destruction. It is up to the pilot to guide the system and lend it a conscience, so the relationship becomes a balance of emotion and logic.

Another advantage of Zero System is its ability to offer physical stimulus back to the pilot, allowing him to feel the strain that the MS is undergoing. This causes great physical and emotional stress on the pilot, but allows the MS to become an extension of the pilot's thoughts and movements.

Due to the extreme mental strain on its users, Zero System could never be used on a wide scale. It can literally tear a users mind apart if they are not strong willed.

Only the cockpits of Gundams Wing Zero and Epyon were fitted with a built in version of the the Zero System, but a modified version of Epyon's Zero System was adapted by Zechs for use as the centralized system of Libra’s MD fleet, and Gundam Sandrock Custom was fitted with a form of Wing Zero's software during episode 44.

A number of references list ZERO as an acronym for "Zoning and Emotional Range Omitted (System)." (source: GundamOfficial.com, Gundam Wing Technical Manual, Series)

http://aboutgundamwing.com/glossary_events.htm

it will let the pilot know that defeat is possible.


And as we all know defeat is impossible in SEED mode. >.> Just ask Shinn Asuka.

Contin'd in next post

[Red Zaku]

not really. all you've done was make it seem as if GS & GSD pilots arent strong,so you can downplay kira's victories.

What are you talking about? We pointed out that no pilot for the early part of SEED except for Andy used a weapon that could damage Strike on Strike. Those that had weapons who weren't Andy, I.E. The Le Crueset team never fought Kira more then one at a time until 29. And before 29 Athrun was half assing because he thought he could get Kira to switch sides, Yzak and Nicol were usually tasked with destroying the AA, and Dearka found himself being tied up and struggling to defeat Mwu. Kira's only actual challenge in fight never really came until Andy.

even though every other coordinator on the show has had some form of a military back ground,

What does having a military background matter in the following instances
1. You've never fought mobile suit against mobile suit combat?
2. You have no weapons that can damage the enemy unit?

the "rookie" kira ablilitys still surpasses any average coordinator do to his ability to adapt and comprehend battles.

That's nice exageration but the facts are much different. The facts are Mobile Suit to Mobile Suit combat is brand new. There are litterally only a staggeringly tiny handful of pilots who've actually faced off against other mobile suits and those battles were all against stole GiNN's with Coordinator pilots who defected. The other huge problem with this statement is it ignores the huge boost Kira gets from the enemy having no weapons that could damage Strike's PSA, and the only pilots who do never fight him seriously in the early episodes because of Athrun's pleading that he can convince Kira to switch sides.

It's nice that you completely ignore the reality of series in favor of this magical world where Kira is this uber skilled pilot but the facts are much different. Kira does so well because he's in a superior MS, or he's fighting a person who doesn't want to hurt him. Andy is the first and only serious test Kira ever gets until episode 29.

i've showed more than enough proving that most of your statements about kira was wrong and you havent owned up to

By doing what? >.> Saying Kira is a skilled pilot cause he lasts the begining of SEED and ignoring all his advantages over ZAFT grunts, and the fact he never fought unevenly against the stolen Gundam's until episode 29? Pretending Athrun wasn't convincing everyone on his team to leave Kira to him because he thought he could talk Kira out of fighting for the EA? Pretend Blitz and Duel never fought completely against the AA in the early goings and that Dearka never had trouble with Mwu and his mobile armor? >.> Come on now. That's not a good way to debate.

i know what seed is, and its not anything to be taken lightly, it doesnt say that everyone can achieve, it all it says is that its not restricted to just coordinators. and as much as i like this site. it needs a major update.

Except of course it says SEED mode is completely unconfirmed, and that there is no real proof of what it does. Just that is might be the key to the next step in human evolution. A concept which is never ever addressed again at all.

i said that it gives both sides of war, victory and defeat, but not as an option to choose from.

=/ I think I've just illustrated the opposite in the above. That it is indeed essentially a choice to follow the Zero system's advice or not.


and i made a mistake myself in thinking it was the os when it was his controlls he changed. its like playing video games( you set your controller to your style/way of playing instead of the default settings.) this is addressed in episode 27 of gs

Kira re-wrote the subroutines of his OS to correct for problems he had with firing his beam canon over the hot desert sand, and again to compensate for the displacement of Strikes Weight. Both of those factors would have nothing to do with the controls for Strike. >.> Both would have to do with internal computations the Strikes targeting computer, and AMBAC system make.

And you seem to be refering to the early part of Endless Rondo where by which Eileen refers to the Strikes Natural OS and Kira making changes to it. Of course your'e ignoring those changes made it a Coordinator OS because he adapted it to function best with his skills. Precisely why Mwu doesn't pilot the Strike which was suggested in episode 3. Mwu can't operate it do to the changes made by Kira. =/ And those changes are no different then thosxe made by Nicol, Athrun, and Dearka, and Yzak.

Hell, I'd actually suggest Athrun had a much harder task before him then Kira do to the transformation system of Aegis, likely Athrun had to balance the functions of the transformation and make heavy changes to the performence of the MA mode as well as it's mobile suit mode.

if its ok i would like to see a link showing where it says he uses the auto system instead of using it manually.

=/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heaKVUH5V-c&feature=related
1:17=1:29. Kira's exact words at this point, " Contact pressure is increased, I have to take that into account. Estimate reduction in pressure. For friction coefficient sync granularity of the sand to minus 20"

Eileen when refering to applying a control program during battle is refering to Kira adding a program to control Strike's weight displacement. It has nothing to do with changing how the Strike Reacts to pilot input. It changes how the Strike displaces it's weight so it doesn't sink into or slide over the sand.

the strike freedom was moddified specifically for kira and kira only, so i dought the word "slightly" should be used here.

>.> That's sort of the point. Kira makes it so the Strike works to his skill level. He doesn't not try and raise his skill level to match the Strike.

[NeoChaos]

>.> Except he's not. He knocked Dearka and Yzak off their Guuls which removes them from the entire fight. They don't show up at all again in that entire episode. That's not what I call a fight. A fight would imply a prolonged battle between all three characters with none of them going easy on Kira. That never happens.

besides for athrun ,there intentions were to kill kira. kira's intentions were to disable them from the fight. through out the series he actualy saved there lives multiple times with the exception of Nicol's death.


>.>Also, I love how you say this but then only a page ago you claimed Heero vs. Wufei shouldn't count as a good example of Heero's skill because you thought Wufei was going easy on him.

i did that so you can see how you interpret kira's battles as not being serious. When i give u exaples of kira kicking someones ass , you come back with (they were fighting horrible, they lack this....ect....).



>.>You have no problem using his early fights to prove there in SEED where he has a huge advantage of being invulnerable over most of the people he fights, but then in Destiny where using the Strike puts him on a more even playing field we see him get trashed.

But from your point of view experience is greater than the power of the gundam.
Kira hasnt been on the battle field that long. The major enemies he fought either new about his gundam and the way phase shift worked, piloted a gundam simular to The strike, were coordinators who had some form of miltary background,newtypes, and naturals who bodys and minds where altered to fight with the same potential as a coordinator.




>.>Of course it completely defeats the purpose if in the military it becomes harder to use a weapon. =/ That's just insane. The idea behind them was let's make it harder to operate this MS as we make new ones? The logic there is still horrible because you're still suggesting control was sacrificed for increased performence. That's completely impratical.

Impractical ?Not really because simplicity is sacrafised for qualiy & and performance everyday, expecially in the production business.



>.>Adding more buttons =/= making it harder to use. Especially considering there is still a channel and power button one can still operate a TV without ever using the other functions it's capable of. but if you dont use the other functions you'll never get the best performance out of your product.


>.>He was so worried about the Archangel the first time he goes SEED mode. This fails to prevent him from taking down both Yzak and Nicol and saving the Archangel from being blown up.

I'll come back to this...tomorrow if thats cool with you.



>.>=/ Mitsuo Fukuda said it. SEED mode if the physical representation of surpassing you're limits. If you actually used the link I provided to AEUGblogspot only two pages ago you would have read all of Fukuda's interviews so this wouldn't even be an issue now.
The Link I provided two pages ago where someone askes about SEED mode and Fukuda defines as surpassing ones physical limitations. =/ Next time please for the love of god use the reference materials I provide and maybe analyze them more carefully next time?

i've read the interview and it contridicts the way shinn and athrun went seed there first time. Athrun was angry and shinn didnt want to die. those seem to be more emotional than physical.


>.Isn't that precisely why we're having the debate? To prove with evidence based on their respective talents displayed in their respective shows who's better? >.> I thought that was the point? A bit silly to just state the blatantly obvious. Though again you say this, and then only one post before proclaim Kira as better then Heero. How exactly can you be so hypocritical in the same post? It's amazing.

I wish you took that comment for what it was....sarcasm, calm down, breath a little...



>.>.> ..........Wow. This is really shaping up to be a fanboy rant. So your proof is, " I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG BECAUSE SEED IS BETTER!" That's it? Your failure to adequitely prove your points does not entitle you in anyway shape or form to some kind of automatic victory.

Yea you can call me a fan boy its not like im taking this seriously. S.Freedom is my favorite gundam and kira is my favorite pilot.....followed by Domone and the Burning Gundam.
Im saying the SEED FACTOR is much more beneficial to a pilot than the zero system....I know what the ZERO SYSTEM does and again im not denying its abilities. lets say we took two pilots with the same exact skills , physical, and mental capabilities. but one has SEED FACTOR and the other uses the ZERO SYSTEM. Now lets take both of those pilots and remove them from there main gundams

the pilot that has the seed factor isnt restricted to his gundam, unlike the other pilot who uses the ZS. which gives SF the advantage over the ZS


>.And as we all know defeat is impossible in SEED mode. >.> Just ask Shinn Asuka.

who knows, its just a theory....

[Red Zaku]

besides for athrun ,there intentions were to kill kira. kira's intentions were to disable them from the fight.

Kira doesn't decide to start disabling people until he gets the Freedom Gundam. Before this point Kira kills those he beats, or at least tries to do so. He doesn't adopt his semi-no kill policy until later on in the series.


through out the series he actualy saved there lives multiple times with the exception of Nicol's death.

Oh so he was only trying to disable Andy? >.> And did we forget Kira killed Aisha, and Miguel as well? Kira kills everyone he fights until he gets the Freedom.

i did that so you can see how you interpret kira's battles as not being serious.

Of course your exmaple was of Kira removing Duel, and Busters means of flight and thus removing them from a fight. It was hardly as intense as the battle between Heero and Wufei, let alone the fact neither suit shows up again in the episode. Your claim was Kira routinely fights mutliple named enemies at their best. >.> Your claim is wrong, since I hardly call going MIA for an episode after losing your ride a fight with Yzak, Dearka, and Athrun at their best.

When i give u exaples of kira kicking someones ass , you come back with (they were fighting horrible, they lack this....ect....).

Your example was horrible, and didn't show case Kira's skill. Your claim, " Kira takes on Yzak, Dearka and Athrun at the same time and they're fighting him seriously." >.> Your proof. Yzak, and Dearka being nerfed by the lack of a flight feature in either of their suits.

But from your point of view experience is greater than the power of the gundam.

>.> No, SKILL and EXPERIENCE are greater then just an over powered MS. You seem to ignore the fact Heero, has more experience, skill, and a super powered MS though.

Kira hasnt been on the battle field that long. The major enemies he fought either new about his gundam and the way phase shift worked, piloted a gundam simular to The strike,

Ok, that's it. You have officially never watched Gundam SEED. No one knew a damn thing about how Strike worked until the teens. ZAFT grunts were still in shocked awe over Phase Shift until the Archangel's decent to Earth. And even then ZAFT still has no clue how long the Strike's PSA can last. Precisely why Andy spams the things with missiles he knows won't hurt it. So he can figure out it's power limits.

were coordinators who had some form of miltary background,newtypes, and naturals who bodys and minds where altered to fight with the same potential as a coordinator.

=/ Newtypes fought with a potential of Coordinators already. And a huge number of Natural's didn't need any enhancements to match Coordinators, Morgan Chevalier, Rena Imelia, Edward Harrelson, Lowe Gear, Barry Ho, Jane Houston, Chris Dill, Balsam Arendo, Juri Wu Nien, Cagalli Yula Attha, Prayer Reverie, and Jess Rabble all have done so.


Impractical ?Not really because simplicity is sacrafised for qualiy & and performance everyday, expecially in the production business.

Except that would be a consumer market not the military. In the Military often simplicity is demanded before all else. How easy is it for a soldier to use? That's why it is completely impractical and a nonsensical suggestion.

but if you dont use the other functions you'll never get the best performance out of your product.

>.> Normally factory defaults are already at the best setting as far as the military goes. Which is all that matters. We're not talking about a consumer product after all. Precisely why your point and example was awful the first time around.

I'll come back to this...tomorrow if thats cool with you.

No, not really because your entire point is completely irrational and ignores conventional military lgoic in favor of consumer market logic.


i've read the interview and it contridicts the way shinn and athrun went seed there first time. Athrun was angry and shinn didnt want to die. those seem to be more emotional than physical.

>.> So wait, wait, the desire not to die or anger cannot and have not been responsible for increasing human performence? Adrenaline means nothing to you does it? It has never been, and will never be uncommon for the human body to increase it's perfomence in response to a threat.

I wish you took that comment for what it was....sarcasm, calm down, breath a little...

>.> So I should excuse stupid comments because they were used with a mock serious tone that cannot be deciphered through text alone?

Yea you can call me a fan boy its not like im taking this seriously.

Ah I see now. The cop-out argument. When all else fails and you've not sufficiently proven your point, resort to, " I don't care." Because replying as much as you did, and researching as much as you did to try and prove myself or newtype wrong certianly implies you didn't care.

S.Freedom is my favorite gundam and kira is my favorite pilot.....followed by Domone and the Burning Gundam.

His name is spelled Domon, but hey what's one more error in a post filled with inaccuracies?

Im saying the SEED FACTOR is much more beneficial to a pilot than the zero system....

And you've not actually proven it is. Since we know what the SEED Factor is defined as, and we know that while there is no SEED factor, it's definition is certianly not impossible for other pilots in other series to achieve. All they have to do is surpass their limits you just can't physically see it. =/ That's all.

I know what the ZERO SYSTEM does and again im not denying its abilities.

You clearly don't know what it can do. You've been posting like you have no clue what you're talking about with regard to how it works for two pages now. Heero and Zero are an extension of each other? Get it now? Heero can not only feel when Zero's damaged but his reaciton time is through the roof because Zero allows him to move the suit as swiftly as he'd move his own limb.

lets say we took two pilots with the same exact skills , physical, and mental capabilities. but one has SEED FACTOR and the other uses the ZERO SYSTEM.

Except of course BOTH pilots could fill the requirements of SEED factor. I.E. Surpassing their limits the ONLY difference would be in SEED mode it's visually repesented by a shift in the characters eye color and pupil dialation. In the other character you simply wouldn't see the change represented.

Now lets take both of those pilots and remove them from there main gundams

Why? This debate isn't about the characters outside of their Gundam.s All evidence of the characters outside their Gundams was used to illustrate the Heero has proven himself much more versatile of a pilot then Kira. Which he has.

the pilot that has the seed factor isnt restricted to his gundam, unlike the other pilot who uses the ZS. which gives SF the advantage over the ZS

I'm just going to parrot what I've said before. There is aboslutely NOTHING stopping the character without SEED mode from surpassing his own limits. The only difference would be no physical representation of such.


who knows, its just a theory....

A very bad one but that's been the case with most of the theories you've presented so far. They don't rely on evidence of any kind.

[Biolink]

the pilot that has the seed factor isnt restricted to his gundam, unlike the other pilot who uses the ZS. which gives SF the advantage over the ZS

This one made me drop my GH controller :laugh

[NeoChaos]

This one made me drop my GH controller :laugh

you should have dropped that a long time ago when rock band came out.. lol

[NeoChaos]

Kira doesn't decide to start disabling people until he gets the Freedom Gundam. Before this point Kira kills those he beats, or at least tries to do so. He doesn't adopt his semi-no kill policy until later on in the series. So instead of aiming for the mobile suits he decides to aim for there flyers..so he can...kill them. no that doest sound right at all to me.




Oh so he was only trying to disable Andy? >.> And did we forget Kira killed Aisha, and Miguel as well?

I wasnt speaking about them. we were talking about the fight between, kira, Yzak , Dearka, and Athrun.



It was hardly as intense as the battle between Heero and Wufei, let alone the fact neither suit shows up again in the episode. Your claim was Kira routinely fights mutliple named enemies at their best. >.> Your claim is wrong, since I hardly call going MIA for an episode after losing your ride a fight with Yzak, Dearka, and Athrun at their best.

So the scene with Wufei and Heero, your claiming Wufei was fighting to his full extent. And your claim is that nobody was seriously fighting when they took on kira. You make it seem that the fight took place at different times when in actuallity the time between Kira disableing Yzak and Dearka, and then the strike being destroyed happend right after the other.



>.> No, SKILL and EXPERIENCE are greater then just an over powered MS. You seem to ignore the fact Heero, has more experience, skill, and a super powered MS though.

Heero has more experience i agreed. but to me kira has more skill in the freedom/s.freedom than Heero does in his wing gundam/zero. lastly The Strike Freedom is way stronger than Wing Zero.


Ok, that's it. You have officially never watched Gundam SEED. No one knew a damn thing about how Strike worked until the teens. Precisely why Andy spams the things with missiles he knows won't hurt it. Before andy, who else fought kira. When you seperate sentences you ruin the point im trying to make.



=/ Newtypes fought with a potential of Coordinators already. And a huge number of Natural's didn't need any enhancements to match Coordinators, Morgan Chevalier, Rena Imelia, Edward Harrelson, Lowe Gear, Barry Ho, Jane Houston, Chris Dill, Balsam Arendo, Juri Wu Nien, Cagalli Yula Attha, Prayer Reverie, and Jess Rabble all have done so. Barry Ho

I've never really cared to read GS Astray , so i cant argue this comment.



Except that would be a consumer market not the military. In the Military often simplicity is demanded before all else. How easy is it for a soldier to use? That's why it is completely impractical and a nonsensical suggestion.

Actualy i work for a military owned company that Produces equipment for special use. Kaizen ( to continually improve)or Lean 6 sigma is a system that we use to increase performance and at the same time reduce Muda (waiste) or non needed steps, but we never sacrifise quality and performance for simplicity

>.> Normally factory defaults are already at the best setting, as far as the military is conserned..... . when things are created in mass production, the consumer is the one who decides whether Default is the best setting. lets do something simple like a mouse on the computer. The default for the mouse is for right handed people, but what happens if a left handed person buys this mouse?
He/she Configures the controlls so that the mouse works for them.


So wait, wait, the desire not to die or anger cannot and have not been responsible for increasing human performence?
It has never been, and will never be uncommon for the human body to increase it's perfomence in response to a threat. I agree with most of what your saying but What im argueing is that there has to be more to just a raise in adrenaline. With passionate characters who feed off of adrenaline (stella, clotho buer, Oruga Sabnack, and Natarle Badgiruel) there has to be another factor, then there's Kira who uses seed willingly,consistantly and skillfully.

Ah I see now. The cop-out argument. When all else fails and you've not sufficiently proven your point, resort to, " I don't care." Because replying as much as you did, and researching as much as you did to try and prove myself or newtype wrong certianly implies you didn't care.

Hell nah this isnt a cop-out. your comments just seem to carry TOO much fustration behind it. Im just trying to ease the tension in the room, there's no point for me to attack you personally just because i disagree with your comment.



His name is spelled Domon, but hey what's one more error in a post filled with inaccuracies? lol, r u serious?



And you've not actually proven it is. Since we know what the SEED Factor is defined as, and we know that while there is no SEED factor, it's definition is certianly not impossible for other pilots in other series to achieve. All they have to do is surpass their limits you just can't physically see it. =/ That's all. Your right, its not impossible for others to achieve seed factor,but we prove anything with assumptions.
I can assume that there were other pilots capable with standing the zero system, but there's no proof for me to back up that assumption.


Except of course BOTH pilots could fill the requirements of SEED factor. I.E. Surpassing their limits the ONLY difference would be in SEED mode it's visually repesented by a shift in the characters eye color and pupil dialation. In the other character you simply wouldn't see the change represented. i see what your saying,but im placing each of those pilots as dependents on there abilites or A.I,and with that im trying to prove to you the advantages that SEED FACTOR has over the ZERO SYSTEM. but i did understand the case you were presenting.



Why? This debate isn't about the characters outside of their Gundam.s All evidence of the characters outside their Gundams was used to illustrate the Heero has proven himself much more versatile of a pilot then Kira. Which he has. then our illustrations where pointless since Versatility isnt need if your piloting one mobile suit and fighting one enemy, the biggest think you need is the ability to adapt to the situation. In that case Heero can use his ZS and kira can use his coordinator abilities and his SEED FACTOR.

I'm just going to parrot what I've said before. There is aboslutely NOTHING stopping the character without SEED mode from surpassing his own limits. The only difference would be no physical representation of such. Again witout proof of an event, assumptions are pointless.




A very bad one but that's been the case with most of the theories you've presented so far. They don't rely on evidence of any kind. but what traits has the pilot shown when he achieves SEED FACTOR? thats what im simply relying on. im not trying to add things that i havent seem him do in the series.

[Biolink]

you should have dropped that a long time ago when rock band came out.. lol

Nah lol

One fake plastic instrument is more than enough.I already got enough Video Game paraphernalia as it is.

[NewtypeS3]

i was speaking of commander Andy...
this video is episode 29, and it shows the full fight between kira, Yzak and his boys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6t0BJdKS90&amp;feature=related
Which, as Red pointed out, only shows Athrun and Nichol really doing the fighting. Dearka and Yzak are unable to actually move even decently without their Guuls and are no more than floating targets used by named characters. As we see in footage we've already posted back in the desert, the Duel and Buster are close to useless in the Earth's atmosphere without anything resembling thrusters or a lighter weight - or being a good guy, in Dearka's case.

Taking out two named turrets and then fighting a useless pilot (Nichol) and a wishy-washy pilot who's trying to recruit you (Athrun) may speak about Kira's ability to multi-task, but says overly little about his skill.
Now, if he was able to fight off the Druggies to a decisive victory... that's something to talk about.

I've watched heero fight and there's nothing for me to address.
...except all the points of mine and Red's that you've chosen to ignore.

i've never denyed any of the abilities he has.
...actually, you have.
Repeatedly.

At least me and Red have animation to back up our doubts on Kira's overall level of skill when compared outside of his own universe.

Heero shows versitility as he is able to perform well in many MS', but if you look at it this way, it should be easier to controll such a simple MS..
So... a Mobile Suit designed 20 years ago by the lowest bidder should be easier to control than a mobile suit designed no more than 5 years ago by someone with an unlimited budget?
That's not even logical, thanks to the fact that technology advances as time goes on - to say nothing of the fact that things get easier as technology advances. You know, more user-friendly, less-likely to jam...
As Red said, the F-15 is inferior to the F-22A just because of the fact that the F-15 was made long, long ago with inferior-to-now technology.

To make a slightly different comparison... 20 years ago, most cars were stick-shifted - requiring a third pedal to shift gears, known as the clutch. Nowadays, things are automatically shifted. Similarly, Heero went from a proverbial Automatic to a proverbial Manual-shift (the Clutch-driven cars) as he went from Wing to the Leo.
The fact that he does so without a moment's hesitation and without an ounce of trouble speaks leagues for his skill, if you ask me.

Kira hasnt been in many different MS's, but with the different add-ons the strike gundam possesd he showed great versitility as well.
Not entirely...
When he had the Strike, Kira was certainly a monster who knew how to adapt to a situation for the most part. However, he still made some serious errors - such as choosing the Launcher for his first fight against the BuCUEs instead of the Aile pack, though he does utilize it later on. And Kira only thought about using the pack he launched with until he would occaisionally run low on battery power - only then would he bother trying to switch packs. Kira never used a weapon that wouldn't be found on the pack he was using - never kept the beam rifle to use with the Sword Strike, never swapped up shoulder packs to get a beam boomerang with the Aile. It's versatility, but it's overly limited and shows a lack of creativity despite the skill (Shin Asuka, on the other hand, would show an inspiring amount of creativity in his Impulse in Destiny 34).
And then when he went to the Freedom, Rouge and S-Freedom, Kira completely lacked the option to change up packs of any sort - thus becoming overly predictable in his combat styles. And since this is against the Freedom/S-Freedom and not the Strike...

As for Heero's own versatility, the man often makes the most unbalanced unit into a balanced one. I wish this was bragging - but what more can you expect from someone who turned a melee-unit (the Mercurius) into an all-range unit (turns out those Planet Defensors make handily awesome long-range melee weapons when paired two-at-a-time), or turn an assault unit (Wing and Zero) into an all-range unit (the guy has some seriously fearsome skills in melee - even turning his shield into a weapon during episode 6, and taking down the melee-only Epyon in the final episode).
Heero isn't the best pilot in Gundam's continuity - but he is one of the best around, and the man is certainly one of the more creative and adaptable pilots in Gundam (but not the most - that goes to X's Garrod Ran).

the one thing that kira has as an advantage is his seed factor...
...which is just a physical representation of surpassing one's limits - something that anyone does when they improve in something such as piloting mobile suits.

which isnt restricted to one gundam,
Nor is the Zero System, which was installed onto the Sandrock (Episode 44, if I recall. Not used after, because Quatre no longer needed it), the Epyon and into the Mobile Doll System on Liebra as well!

and with his ability to study and adapt to battle conditions faster than heero
...what 'adapt'?
As your own links showed, Kira had to reprogram his operating system in order to even stand a chance against thos BuCUES in the desert. He had to reprogram his OS in order to aim properly, he had to reprogram his OS in order to do pretty much anything before he got the Freedom... where he reprogrammed the suit from the start and then relied on the suit's sheer power from then on out.
Heero, on the other hand, has no problems using the environment of Antarctica to his advantage in Zechs during episode 16, while using an unfamiliar unit (the Heavyarms, customized by Trowa to carry a beam saber instead of a left arm below the elbow) and still heavily wounded from his attempt at self-detonation in episode 10!*

(outside of there original battle suits) kira beats heero...
...except he really won't, and this battle isn't about being in other units anyhow.

SEED mode represents the ability for an individual with the SEED factor to enter into a state of enhanced awareness and peak physical ability.
...also known as 'trying really, really hard.'

While in this state, the person (usually a mobile suit pilot, but not necessarily)
It might not be necessary, but it's the only times shown! Not to mention the person is also a main character (Kira, Shin, Athrun), sleeping with the main character (Lacus, Cagali, Athr- kidding) or buddy-buddy with the main character (Athrun).
Certainly, this speaks leagues as to how common it is in non-mains and non-mobile-suit-pilots.

demonstrates heightened reflexes
Also found in the Zero System, thanks to the way the system works.
Not that Heero needs it, but come on.

and extremely quick information processing,
Also found in the Zero System, thanks to the way the system works.
Not that Heero needs it, but come on.

and you speak of this as if its not a factor.
It's not, really.
Everyone in every Gundam show can surpass their limitations - just by trying their hardest (and in some cases, like in X and G, training really hard). And they don't need a physical representation to show it, either (unless you're in G-Gundam, where you literally go Super Saiyan or perform the Kaio-Ken - depending on the unit we see)!

one thing that the zero system does different is show the outcome of the battle "if" the pilot follows its directions.
...and?
Something tells me that knowing the outcome of any movement in a battle at any time would be a really good thing, so long as the pilot could avoid going insane like Heero, Zechs and Wufei.

might i add victory isnt the only outcome the ZS shows.
...something me and Red have already mentioned a good 100 times over, what with our stating that it shows every possible outcome of a fight.

98% of Wing Zero's fights are in space, so there would be no need to change anything to the systems computer, there's nothing to adapt to.
98%?
That doesn't magically discount the 2% (according to you, anyhow. More like 10%-ish by mine) that don't take place in space and still have Wing Zero not needing to adapt in any way, shape or form to fight on the Earth.

Kira doesnt configure his gundams OS to fight another MS, but to adapt his MS to the enviorment.
...programming the beam rifle to lead the target isn't adapting to the environment, it's filling in for Kira's skill or lack thereof.

I'll have to upload these vids later on tonight but i wanted to go back to Kira's use of the Dragoons. Dragoons system was made capable of A.I controll so that average pilots can use them. but it never points out that kira uses the A.I. system.
Except nothing in the S-Freedom's technical profile, or the profiles for any other Super-DRAGOON-equipped unit suggest they can go back to the old, inferior system!
Remember, Rau had horrible aim in the Providence because each individual DRAGOON and gun had to be aimed by his mind - something he was not only unused to, but was also unable to handle properly considering his already-lacking skill in the first place.

An argument for Rey can be made, certainly. After all, he shares the same genetics Rau has.
Kira, though, has no such evidence to prove that he can even remotely use the old system - nor is there any evidence showing the old system is even installed into the Super DRAGOONs in the first place!

ZAFT developed the DRAGOON System,and Destiny has data on the behavior of the AI of the DRAGOONs for countermeasure, shinn cant use this date to counter kira's Dragoons because its completely useless against manually operated Draggons.
...what? That's a complete and utter line of bull, and you know it.
Shin certainly studied Kira's combat techniques, but he never set out to program his operating system to adapt to Kira's techniques. Shin adapted as a pilot - he never once touched the operating system outside making sure the damned thing ran properly!
And even then, just because the Destiny has data on those DRAGOONs doesn't mean it will somehow come in handy when Shin never once faced Kira in a situation where Kira could use those DRAGOONS in the first place!

Admit it - you never actually paid attention to Destiny, did you?

[NewtypeS3]

if you look at the info the model kits give you, the s.freedom out classes wing zero all the way.
Do tell. Let's see how this Wikipedia-like article tries to combine the hundreds of retcons made to the unit and if they're even remotely accurate to the current one.

"Strike Freedom's modified "Voiture Lumière" booster engine on its "wings" can generates visual effect similar to ZGMF-X42S Destiny's Wings of Light.
Accurate so far. However, the VL is only really useful in straight-line proulsion for the most part, as the basic idea was used for the Stargazer - a Mobile Suit built around this idea.

This has been shown to be achievable only when the Strike Freedom deploys all of its DRAGOONs, leaving the thrusters laid out in the remote weapons' docking sections to create this effect.
Also still accurate, and seriously limiting the S-Freedom in the Earth's Atmosphere where the DRAGOONs aren't useful at all - unlike the Destiny or Wing Zero, which both reach top-speed without trouble in the atmosphere.

It is unknown whether it functions in the same manner as Destiny's "Wings of Light" (which also spread Mirage Colloid gas to create holographic after-images to confuse enemy radar/pilots when in dogfight)."
Unknown... but the thing is, it never happened in the animation.
If the 'Wings of Words' that the S-Freedom deploy were capable of this, they would have done so from the very beginning - much like how the Destiny did it almost from day one.

Sorta like how Kira is only the test-tube baby that he was planned to be with nothing extra there. If there was anything important beyond that, we the audience would have been shown/told.

According to the model's manual," Strike Freedom's golden joints is used to endure ultra-mobility beyond the limits of its design, as power is distributed across all parts, producing a luminescent effect in which light is emitted from the variable phase shift armor of the joints. Also stated, that activating HI-MAT Full Burst mode and using Super DRAGOON at the same time, is virtually impossible unless the pilot is a super coordinator."
...which is no longer true.
Not only was this patricular bit of continuity removed from the Master Grade release of the unit, but the guy who wrote up this bit of crap openly admitted he had to fill space and made it all up off the top of his head.

So, the Golden Joints being power spill or enhancing durability are utter crap.
As is the whole 'Super Coordinator' thing, seeing how there is no such thing as a 'Super Coordinator' at all - aside from Canard Pars, who was only 'super' because of his psychotic endurance training while a test-subject by the EA.

From the High Grade model kit manual," Strike Freedom was completed by the former Clyne Faction led by Lacus Clyne. The manual states that the Strike Freedom was created by stealing data from the next-generation Second Stage series that was under development by ZAFT and combined with data from the Freedom which was restored in Orb after the previous war, the Bloody Valentine War.
Also retconned away. How do I know this? Why, MAHQ's current-and-up-to-date profile, which states...
In the last stages of the war, ZAFT creates a successor unit, the ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom Gundam. However, the Strike Freedom is stolen before its completion by Terminal, a secret organization associated with followers of Lacus Clyne. Although ZAFT's original plan was to produce multiple units with overwhelming firepower, the stolen unit is instead refined for use by the Freedom Gundam's former pilot, Kira Yamato.**

Notice how nothing is listed about being 'combined' with Freedom, or any crap like that.

Further stated, as this hybrid machine is a further power-up of the Freedom, which already surpassed ordinary mobile suits, no normal human can operate it.
Further crap, seeing how it's listed nowhere in the up-to-date-and-official MAHQ profiles!**

I mean, jeeze. You'd think that these blatantly-obviously-stupid moments that were retconned out of existence would be noticed by the fans who pay such 'rabid attention' to the series...
...ah, well. Now on to part 2!

-------------------------------------------------------

A figh is a fight, its funny how you downgrade there abilities so that kira's win doesn't count.
...except it's hard to even play up the movable turrets that were the Duel and Buster. They could barely move on the land, their pilots were the equivalent of punching bags by this point in the series (much like the Frost Brothers of X were by episode 10 or so) and once the Guuls were gone, the pilots were less of a threat than Nichol ever was (you know, the guy thwarted by the concept of a battleship)!


i would love for you to show me where i said that.
Try looking back at your own posts, such as where you claim the Zero System is specific to Wing Zero (thus implying that Heero is useless without it), declaring that Kira's Seed isn't suit-specific (again, the implications)...
...or how about some of your first posts into this argument where you almost outright stated that Heero was relying entirely on the Zero System the whole time, despite evidence to the contrary?

in some cases its true that technology becomes easier to comprehend as time goes on but in most cases its not. ( tv 20 years ago there was a power , channel and volume button, now look at tv's today....big difference kid.
...Actually, TVs 20 years ago had power, channel up, channel down, volume up, volume down, various inputs (what with the VCR having just come out and cable getting huge, remember?) - not to mention the various special features of each brand coming out.
And then there were remote controls, that often had the various channel buttons (0 through 9, up/down), volume controls, power, menu, various options to adjust the Vertical Hold and Horizontal Hold, color adjustment...

Honestly, aside from the fact that modern TVs have a few more options and a handfull more useless buttons on the remotes, they're not all that more complex than they were 20 years back.
Just smaller, work better and made to last longer.

Now, had you argued 50 years back, when the TV first premiered and had a channel knob, power toggle built into the knob and maybe two options to assist with the bunny ears... you would have had a much better point.
But that's also 30 more years, of course.

Im making the argument that kira would adapt to the situation faster than heero with out the help of an A.I.
Heero doesn't fight with the assistance of an AI in the first place, and even then... there's no evidence to show that Kira even adapts in the first place nearly as well as Heero does.

actualy i know enough. The zero system < Seed, there's nothing to prove.
...nor do you have any evidence to prove your assumption.

The zero systems outcome isnt always victory, it will let the pilot know that defeat is possible.
...which is something me and Red have repeatedly said in the first place. Don't see how it counts against Heero, considering he can still find victory out of all the possibilities of defeat as well.

[NewtypeS3]

not really. all you've done was make it seem as if GS & GSD pilots arent strong,so you can downplay kira's victories.
Nichol was thwarted by a battleship, repeatedly. That's not skilled.
Dearka was continually thwarted by Mu la Flaga, a man who was skilled... but screwed over in terms of actual technology. That's actually kinda depressing, even if Dearka was a skilled pilot.
Yzak was only a threat once, then his anger wound up getting the better of him in every single other fight after he got that scar - turning himself into a punching bag, much like Dearka.
Athrun... didn't do a whole lot until Nichol died. And then he won a fight just by being the sole guy walking away from the fight - and never fought Kira again in Seed. And in Destiny, he was even more wishy-washy than he was in Seed!
Andy pretty much lost on purpose, as I've analyzed before.
The Druggies, on the other hand, were rather skilled. They would actually have been a serious threat had they worked as a team, but still had Kira on the ropes collectively without even working as one!
Rau... wasn't a threat. Seriously, he was pretty piss-poor in terms of actual skill - relying on the power of his unit more than anything else.
And in Destiny, the Extendeds were even worse than Nichol at times, to be honest.

There were skilled pilots in Seed and Destiny - I'm not denying that. However, the most skilled person Kira fought for the first half of the series was purposely holding back until their final fight (Athrun, of course). The second-most-skilled pilot Kira fought against wound up losing nearly on purpose when he had the advantage (Andy, who could have used the beam sabers to his advantage rather than blindly charge forward).
When it came to later on in the series, Kira was only saved by the best pilot of the previous half saving the day and the fact that they had no teamwork to speak of at all (the Druggies, of course).

And when it came to Destiny, Athrun still wasn't trying, the Extendeds absolutely sucked and Shin tore him to shreds when they finally got to actually fight.
And, of course, Rey wound up standing still like Athrun did because of a handfull of words that made no sense.

Kira's got some skill, but there are tons of others in the CE who are as skilled - if not more so - than Kira. This alone is shown by how easily he's handed his victory many times over, not to mention how many times people fall to him for the dumbest reasons.

even though every other coordinator on the show has had some form of a military back ground, the "rookie" kira ablilitys still surpasses any average coordinator do to his ability to adapt and comprehend battles.
Except he never adapted to Shin's complete-ripping-apart of Kira's tactics in Destiny 39, failed to adapt to Rau's beam-spammage until after his loved one died and completely failed to adapt to the Druggies at all!

A skilled programmer, certainly.
A skilled pilot, probably. There are others better, of course.
A great adaptor and advanced comprehending of events? Not a chance in hell.

i've showed more than enough proving that most of your statements about kira was wrong and you havent owned up to
Oh, we've owned up to them. When you have a point that makes coherent sense.
Problem is, most of these are pretty much made up and/or don't look at all remotely better than Heero's own feats.

-------------------------------------------------------

besides for athrun ,there intentions were to kill kira. kira's intentions were to disable them from the fight.
Actually, Kira had no problem with killing the enemy pilots at this point. Look at Andy, Aisha and all those nameless grunts he's given the axe to by this point.

hrough out the series he actualy saved there lives multiple times with the exception of Nicol's death.
Certainly, stabbing Yzak's cockpit and scarring the pilot within is 'saving' him.
Of course, Kira wound up only outlasting the enemy because of a bonus battery in the striker packs of the Strike each time - overwhelmed from numbers and only winning due to a longetivity that the others lacked multiple times over.

But from your point of view experience is greater than the power of the gundam.
...as shown in the Universal Century (especially in 0080, where Bernard Wiseman took a Zaku without ranged weaponry and used tactics in order to defeat a state-of-the-art Gundam with hidden weaponry!), After War (Garrod Ran, for example, can defeat opponents in a 2-on-1 or a 17-on-1 when he's in a suit of about-equal tech because of his skill - not the fact that he's in a Gundam), Anno Domini (Graham Acre, Sergei and Ali all have insane skills - letting them do some form of damage to the Gundams without needing one themselves. And Graham is the only one to do 'permamant' damage to a Gundam while in a suit that is not Gundam-level for that continuity. And this isn't even counting his final fight against Setsuna in 25...!), After Colony (Quatre, Duo, Heero and Trowa all thrived in Leos... and Trowa was only 9 during his use! Not to mention Quatre's slaughtering of Virgos while in a Taurus or Heero's adaptability...) and just about every single form of continuity created for Gundam except the Cosmic Era.
But, hey, why should we expect you to comprehend things you've apparently not yet seen?

The major enemies he fought either new about his gundam and the way phase shift worked, piloted a gundam simular to The strike, were coordinators who had some form of miltary background, newtypes, and naturals who bodys and minds where altered to fight with the same potential as a coordinator.
...you do realize that your wording makes it sound like it was all at once. When it blatantly wasn't.
The Zala Crew had no clue how the Phase Shift worked, just that it did. It wasn't until Andy did some recon work with his BuCUEs that ZAFT had some vague idea on how to analyze it. And they were in suits comperable to the Strike!
Rau was a weak Newtype, only really capable of sensing Mu's movements and controlling DRAGOONs.
And the Druggies didn't actually have their bodies altered - instead drugged up enough to have comperable skills and reaction time (hence the nickname for them).

And, of course, this completely ignores the grunts who had none of these...

but if you dont use the other functions you'll never get the best performance out of your product.

In the military, the best performance for a product is the default settings. Because it doesn't make any sense to make a tank or a gun that won't work at it's best when it comes right out of the factory.

Now lets take both of those pilots and remove them from there main gundams
...it honestly changes nothing, considering Heero doesn't need the Zero System to fight against his opponents.
But then again, this isn't within the parameters of the fight - nor is the Zero System limited to just one suit!

[NewtypeS3]

the pilot that has the seed factor isnt restricted to his gundam, unlike the other pilot who uses the ZS. which gives SF the advantage over the ZS
...but it doesn't give an advantage to anything, considering Heero is just as good a pilot without the Zero System in the first place, as we've seen repeatedly. What the Zero System really does is even the field with Zechs and give Heero some serious character drama during the middle of the series.

Not to mention the fact that the fight is still between the Freedom and Wing Zero, not 'Not Zero' and 'anything I can think of that gives Kira an advantage.'

who knows, its just a theory....
...one that isn't even remotely based in fact.

-------------------------------------------------------

Heero has more experience i agreed. but to me kira has more skill in the freedom/s.freedom than Heero does in his wing gundam/zero.
...something you've still yet to even remotely prove at all.

lastly The Strike Freedom is way stronger than Wing Zero.
Also something you've let to remotely prove at all outside vague claims that don't go along with... anything in official statistics or the animation!

I can assume that there were other pilots capable with standing the zero system, but there's no proof for me to back up that assumption.
Except Wing shows us many, many other pilots who do:
Treize. No evidence of insanity after using the Epyon, but does believe he lacks a future.
Heero. Masters the Zero System (Zechs' words), after great struggles with both the Epyon and Zero versions of the system.
Zechs. Masters the Zero System when using the Epyon (Heero's words), only struggles lightly with the system on the Zero.
Duo. Has enough sanity and personal strength withstanding after using the Zero System to fight off a psychotic person using the Zero System in the Wing Zero.
Trowa. Granted his memory back by the Zero System, had little to no flashes of death or failure as he piloted.
Wufei. Had no flashes of loss or failure when he used the Zero System - instead seeing what his true enemy was for the first time.
Quatre. Despite being driven further insane by it initially, Quatre masters the System while against...
Dorothy. Suffered no ill effects from the system... ever. And she was able to use it with something as 'normal' as fencing and as bizarre as Mobile Doll control with no ill effects.

Boy, that's more than a handfull of people who can use the System, isn't it?

i see what your saying,but im placing each of those pilots as dependents on there abilites or A.I,
Oh, of course, someone must suck as a pilot when they rely on their own skill as a person.

And, once again, THE ZERO SYSTEM IS NOT AN A.I. THE ZERO SYSTEM IS AN ANALYSIS PROJECT, MUCH LIKE THE BIOCOMPUTER OF THE F91, ONLY IT FORCE-FEEDS INFORMATION DIRECTLY INTO THE BRAIN OF THE PILOT. There is no intelligence, no guiding hand to help the pilot decide which path to take - nothing of the sort.
Stop claiming otherwise. It's making you look less and less like you know what you're talking about.

-------------------------------------------------------

And now, the sources for my posts:

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7x9hWltNj0 continuing into
@ 1:37, the fight starts. Heero's in an unfamiliar unit, wounded, and Zechs is in a merely slightly-damaged unit that he's got insane experience with.
@ 2:35, Heero begins destroying the glaciers, ice and snow around him to hide his unit's thermal levels from the Tallgeese. Episode 16, and Heero's already doing something that Kira won't pull off in 100.
@ 5:10, Heero flashes back to Trowa's words of wisdom, remembering "When the left arm is out of bullets, flip that switch. It will make the left arm lighter." This means that the gattling-arm of the Heavyarms isn't weight-adjusted at all and speaks leagues for Heero's accuracy with the thing already - not to mention Trowa's own skills in the first place.
@ 5:30, Heero begins to take the Heavyarms into melee. In a unit that's the slowest Gundam around and shouldn't be capable of doing so decently. And fights Zechs to a decent draw until Zechs starts 'fighting sneakily,' so to speak.
So yeah, when does Kira do something remotely like that?

**http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-destiny/zgmf-x20a.htm
During the First Earth/ZAFT War in C.E. 71, ZAFT's ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam comes to be known as one of the most powerful mobile suits ever created. In the last stages of the war, ZAFT creates a successor unit, the ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom Gundam. However, the Strike Freedom is stolen before its completion by Terminal, a secret organization associated with followers of Lacus Clyne. Although ZAFT's original plan was to produce multiple units with overwhelming firepower, the stolen unit is instead refined for use by the Freedom Gundam's former pilot, Kira Yamato. The Strike Freedom is a major improvement over the original Freedom Gundam in various respects. The wings feature new high output thrusters developed from the "Voiture Lumiere" propulsion system used by the GSX-401FW Stargazer. A similar propulsion system is used by ZAFT's ZGMF-X42S Destiny Gundam. The Strike Freedom is powered by the hyper deuterion nuclear reactor technology developed by ZAFT. This new design stores power in deuterion form, providing a continuous deuterion charge and, in theory, an endless power supply. However, it is possible for the suit's power to be expended before the reactor can replenish it. The Strike Freedom retains a set of hip-mounted rail cannons, although the cannons can swivel behind the main body and swap places with a pair of hip-mounted, combinable beam rifles (similar to the old GAT-X103 Buster Gundam). The Strike Freedom is also armed with a chest beam cannon, head-mounted vulcan guns and a pair of beam sabers. The biggest change in armaments, however, is in the Strike Freedom's wings. Where the original Freedom Gundam carried a pair of plasma beam cannons, the Strike Freedom features eight DRAGOON (Disconnected Rapid Armament Group Overlook Operation Network) units. The DRAGOON units housed in the wings utilize an improved quantum communications system, allowing normal pilots without expanded spatial awareness to use them. Also, like the original Freedom Gundam, the Strike Freedom is capable of docking with the METEOR mobile weapons platform.

In early C.E. 74, the original Freedom Gundam is destroyed in a battle with Shinn Asuka's ZGMF-X56S Impulse Gundam. The Strike Freedom first enters combat when Kira flies into Earth orbit in the MBF-02 Strike Rouge to assist the Eternal, under attack by ZAFT forces. Afterwards, Kira, accompanied by Lacus Clyne in the ZGMF-X19A ∞ Justice Gundam, returns to Earth and rendezvous with the Archangel. With ZAFT's attack on the Orb Union (codenamed Operation Fury) in full swing, Kira joins in the defense of Orb and engages Shinn's new Destiny Gundam. When the Three Ships Alliance heads to space to counter ZAFT's forces, Kira participates in the final battle over the Moon. During the battle, he causes heavy damage to Rey Za Burrel's ZGMF-X666S Legend Gundam. Using the METEOR, Kira also heavily damages ZAFT's mobile space fortress Messiah. Soon after, the death of PLANT Supreme Council Chairman Gilbert Durandal and the destruction of Messiah mark the end of the war

[NeoChaos]

Just here to let you guys know im still here but im real busy at the moment i should have the time to address newtypes comments sometime late tonight.

-1-

[Red Zaku]

So instead of aiming for the mobile suits he decides to aim for there flyers..so he can...kill them. no that doest sound right at all to me.

First off, Kira is trying to find the best way to take Duel and Buster out of the fight so he aims at the flyers and second. You pointed out a grand total of one incident, before The Freedom and ignore the fact the incident had more to do with necessity then actually Kira not wanting to kill either Dearka or Yzak.

I wasnt speaking about them. we were talking about the fight between, kira, Yzak , Dearka, and Athrun.

You mean the fight that doesn't happen because Yzak, Dearka, and Athrun NEVER face Kira at the same time? Not even in the clip you yourself posted do they square off at the same time. Hell they don't square off at all. Kira removes them from the fight by shooting their Guul's.

So the scene with Wufei and Heero, your claiming Wufei was fighting to his full extent.

Wufei, makes 3 solid attempts to impale Heero's Leo through the cockpit. That's not fighting seriously?

And your claim is that nobody was seriously fighting when they took on kira.

No, that's not what I said at all. I said everyone with weapons that could actually damage Strike i.e. La Krueset team was told to go easy on Kira because Athrun was gonna bring him around to join ZAFT. I also noted that none of the La Kruset team members who fought Kira were of notable skill aside from Athrun. Kira never actually fights Yzak, or Dearka, and when he does fight Nicol, he's such a terrible pilot Kira has almost no trouble. It's not until Waltfield that Kira gets challenged, and Walfield would have won that fight had he not gone for a head-butt instead of ending it with one of the beam blades emanating from the mouth saber. When Kira finally pushed Athrun so far, that he snaps Athrun proves incredibly difficult for Kira to handle, and the fight culminates in what is essentially a lose for Kira given that he would have been dead had Lowe not come along when he did.

You make it seem that the fight took place at different times when in actuallity the time between Kira disableing Yzak and Dearka, and then the strike being destroyed happend right after the other.

The fights did take place at separate times. Yzak, and Dearka were not ever in any of the clips you provided fighting Kira at the same time Athrun was fighting him. That has never happened. Your best proof is that because Kira knocks them off their Guuls in one battle that means he fought all three of them at the same time at their best. =/

Heero has more experience i agreed. but to me kira has more skill in the freedom/s.freedom than Heero does in his wing gundam/zero.

Which is a statement you have absolutely no proof for, at all coincidentally. Wonderful. Why are you even trying to make the statement again? You've failed miserably to actually prove that claim. You even said to you. Which might as well be phrased as, in my opinion, because that's what it is. Your opinion doesn't change the fact we've provided evidence clearly showing Heero has skill in every MS he pilots, and Kira struggles greatly outside of Freedom, and S-Freedom.

lastly The Strike Freedom is way stronger than Wing Zero.

How? We've officially debunked the golden joints = super powered theory, we've essentially proven that Zero has the mobility advantage along with being smaller making it harder to target. We've also effectively demonstrated the power of the TBR, and Heero's skill at dodging attacks from 360 degrees. We've clearly illustrated his mastery over the Zero system, and proven what it's capable of. Like actually making Zero react as if it were the pilots own limb. And we know Wing Zero's beam saber can stand up to Epyon's which was strong enough to slice through the armor of Space Fortress Barge. We've also demonstrated that Gundanium can easily withstand the harsh temperatures and the serious strain put on the frame and armor panels by reentry friction, and heat. So I'm curious how exactly is S-Freedom superior to Wing Zero? In what way? Also, just for the record. Having more guns =/= better MS. Just ask Quess.


Before andy, who else fought kira. When you seperate sentences you ruin the point im trying to make.

Your point was ruined long before I actually did anything to it. Before Andy no one was fighting Kira seriously that could kill him because of Athrun's plea to his friends. The only ones fighting Kira seriously were grunts who had no weapons that could do damage to Kira, and the episodes were pretty good about keeping Kira's grunt fights low for the early part of SEED.

I've never really cared to read GS Astray , so i cant argue this comment.

Shouldn't you at least know all the source material before entering into a debate that would actually require more then a passing memory of the series in question? It certainly would have helped you early on, and even above when you tried to make claims about fights and events happening that never actually took place.

Actualy i work for a military owned company that Produces equipment for special use. Kaizen ( to continually improve)or Lean 6 sigma is a system that we use to increase performance and at the same time reduce Muda (waiste) or non needed steps, but we never sacrifise quality and performance for simplicity

Which doesn't overturn my point at all, that it's simple because the factory has already optimized the weapon for use. Hence the SOLDIER only needs to know how to fire the weapon, or wear the armor, or pull the pin on the grenade. The steps to make these items can be as complex as you want at the end of the day they're still simple to use.

when things are created in mass production, the consumer is the one who decides whether Default is the best setting.

Now you're just trying to argue semantics. The Default setting is the best because it's the default setting, if it wasn't the best it wouldn't be the default. The consumer can change the defaults but that does not make it the optimum for the TV.

lets do something simple like a mouse on the computer. The default for the mouse is for right handed people, but what happens if a left handed person buys this mouse?

They buy a left handed mouse or order the computer with a left handed mouse. Though your theory is lacking severely because I'm left handed, and I use a right handed mouse, and I would not be comfortable using the computer any other way. Not to mention you didn't alter the mouse to make it work for your computer nor did you alter the computer to make it compatible with the mouse. Both are still the default, you've only changed the ergonomics.

He/she Configures the controlls so that the mouse works for them.

What world do you live in where you can make a right handed mouse function in the left hand? The person would buy a left handed mouse, or adjust to the right handed mouse themselves, the change would not be to the default settings of either the computer or the mouse. Again you're arguing ergonomics, as if changing the ergonomics changes the default settings for the computer or mouse. >.> Newsflash.. it won't.

I agree with most of what your saying

Then why are you even bothering? If you agree, there is no need to reply.

but What im argueing is that there has to be more to just a raise in adrenaline.

You can say that's the case but you have to use actual evidence to PROVE it's the case. You can't just say SEED mode is more then that because you said so. That's not how it works, sorry. If you want to argue it, provide evidence, or abandon your argument but don't parrot the same line over and over and provide nothing because that makes it useless to the debate. After all without anything to source it, it's just a claim with no backing.

With passionate characters who feed off of adrenaline (stella, clotho buer, Oruga Sabnack, and Natarle Badgiruel) there has to be another factor, then there's Kira who uses seed willingly,consistantly and skillfully.

>.> Orga, Clotho and Shani didn't fight on adrenaline. They were given drugs to enhance there combat performance. Hence no SEED mode. They weren't fighting on Adrenaline they were fighting on something similar to Angel Dust. The extended's? They were horrible pilots all of them, as evidenced by Sting getting taken down by...grunts? Auel essentially deciding his best way to sneak attack Shinn was from the front, and Stellar was horrible in every fight she fought. Her only named character kill essentially came from one giant accident, and most of the credit for Heine belongs to Kira. And Natarle? She's as cool headed as it gets she's well capable of suppressing her emotions. She does so right up until the very end when she finally decides she's taken enough of Azrael's crap. Then of course you seem to ignore moments like Lacus who goes SEED mode giving a speech. It's clearly predicated on emotion and adrenaline. It clearly didn't make her better at combat, nor did she analyze the situation any better, and it certainly didn't help her emoting.


Hell nah this isnt a cop-out. your comments just seem to carry TOO much fustration behind it.

Well, when you have to refute the same point several times, and every time before that you addressed the point, and rebuffed it, it gets annoying when you have to do it again because the other party refuses to abandon a point that's already been shot down.

lol, r u serious?

Yes, his name is spelled Domon, yes your post is full of inaccuracies. Like claiming Yzak and Dearka fought Kira with Athrun. >.> You know that point, which not even your video evidence supports?

Your right, its not impossible for others to achieve seed factor,but we prove anything with assumptions.

So wait, you're saying this but your S-Freedom > Zero is one giant assumption. Your SEED mode is something more then Adrenaline is one giant assumption ... hell, your entire counter argument has been one huge assumption. The difference is my assumption is reasonable given the definition of SEED mode as laid out by the director. It's just the physical representation of surpassing your limits. Given that definition almost anyone could have SEED mode, even in other series you simply wouldn't see it visually.

I can assume that there were other pilots capable with standing the zero system, but there's no proof for me to back up that assumption.

What the hell are you talking about? There's all kinds of proof for that claim. x.x Quatre ends up mastering it, Wufei, Duo, Zechs, and Dorothy for sure. Trowa might have mastered it, and it seems Trieze was able to pilot Epyon, but it showed him a bad future, and so he decided he wasn't the one meant to use it.

i see what your saying,but im placing each of those pilots as dependents on there abilites or A.I

List of problems with this statement.
1. Zero system is not an A.I.
2. It's been sufficiently illustrated Heero's abilities do not depend on Zero.

and with that im trying to prove to you the advantages that SEED FACTOR has over the ZERO SYSTEM. but i did understand the case you were presenting.

You should also understand that the directors words on the matter are more important that any personal feelings you have about what SEED mode is. Not to mention Lacus going SEED mode for a speech sort of completely removes the possibility of it making anyone insanely smarter, or able to read what's going on around them any better.

to be continued in next post.

[Red Zaku]

then our illustrations where pointless since Versatility isnt need if your piloting one mobile suit and fighting one enemy,

You were the one who tried to claim Kira was more versatile. We used the Heero in Leo references to demonstrate skill. It's clearly skillful to fight a stronger enemy with a weaker mobile suit.


the biggest think you need is the ability to adapt to the situation.

Ironically this is what versatility is. An aspect you just said we didn't need. But I think I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to say Kira is more versatile in other MS then Heero, so Kira is clearly more versatile to adapting to combat situations. It's completely backwards approach to take to prove it. It's completely untrue given the links we've provided to Heero's success in much weaker MS then even the Rouge vs. Kira's utter failure against ZAFT grunts in Destiny outside of Freedom and S-Freedom.

In that case Heero can use his ZS and kira can use his coordinator abilities and his SEED FACTOR.

Coordinator abilities, uh-oh I smell more irrelevant babble comparing Coordinators to naturals. Something that shouldn't apply to Heero in the slightest given from day one in Gundam Wing Heero is refereed to as super human.

Again witout proof of an event, assumptions are pointless.

Then it would be wise to drop, your S-Freedom > Wing argument, your "What SEED mode really is" argument, and your "Kira is more versatile then Heero" argument.

but what traits has the pilot shown when he achieves SEED FACTOR?

Lacus achieves SEED factor. She shows no skills at all, She only has big pinkish black eyes. =/ That's the only trait actually shown from SEED Factor, other then that it's just a general enhancement of a pilots skills for a pilot because it's a glorified adrenaline rush.

[NeoChaos]

Again, im still here and i just finished reading both of your comments, at the moment its hard for me to get to my notebook, so give me a couple of days if thats cool.

[TheWon]

You guys are pretty good. I voted for Heero just because I like him better. The Seed Universe with Kira being God got old real fast. It's like watching DBZ, but being a Vegeta Piccolo fan. No matter what Goku is going to win.

Maybe you should give each guy the same style of Gundam Better yet just put them both in the Hi-Nu Gundam. The prototype of what Zero and Freedom

[Biolink]

The problem with them being in the Hi-Nu, neither Heero or Kira are Newtypes so neither will be able to properly utilize Hi-Nu like a Newtype would.

If you put them against each other in a grunt suit though Heero would take it. Kira has never even had to experience what its like to pilot a Grunt suit before. He's piloted nothing outside of the Top Tier equipment. Closest he came too was Strike Rouge which was about even with what everybody else had. He took out a few I think before being decimated.

[Red Zaku]

I'm just going to go ahead an assume that Neo has thrown in the towel.

[Biolink]

I've "debated" with Neo before and the same thing happened where he took a long period of time off. He'll be back. Eventually...

[NewtypeS3]

Oh, goodie. Can't wait.

[simsoy]

I think the Zero would win. Kira is a coordinator and Heero is not, coordnators are better but Heero and Kira are equal, so Kira is only good because he is a coordnator, plus the time laps between the technlogy. The Freedom has Faze-Shift armour. The wing zero does not but survied a blast from that giant white fang battleship that was aimed at earth. But i dont think they would ever fight eather if for some reason the editors make it so. (the Zero has that pimpin' 2 barrel blaster that can split into 2 1 barreled blaster, each with enough power to down a colony, The freedom has 4 not as strong cannons all over its body [the zeros is focused as one beam but the freedom usese four]) Winner - The Wing Zero! Watch both seires before commetinting again (and i belive since i proved you wrong i get $5?)

[Ciupy]

Well..technically Heero is only human..but,and here is a big BUT,he's a peak human,trained to human perfection and beyond..you know,Steve Rogers style peak human.

In any iteration of Gundam he would be considered an enhanced human,Coordinator,NewType,whatever suits you.

And the insane thing is that he aquired these powers from hellish training..no genetic help for him.

He has been trained to be the ultimate fighting machine..he won't hesitate like Kira to kill.


Also,as many have mentioned before,the Wing Zero is lighter,faster by a little bit I think and more maneuvrable due to it's lower mass,made out of an incredible hard material,Gundanium..oh and also packs one hell of a punch in the Buster Rifle.

And unlike the Gundams in Seed..power for this baby is no problem..
I've never seen a Gundam in Wing remain without power..ever.


And I didn't even mention the Zero System..which is basically Sharingan Hax (since we are in a Naruto Forum it is a fair comparison :LOS).

It's over when the Zero System activates,Seed more or not,Kira goes down.

It's going to be a close call..but Heero and Wing Zero take this.

[NeoChaos]

Sorry for the long absence, I've been traveling alot over the past month. Im just re-reading everyones comments so i wont repeat anything.

[Biolink]

And so it begins

[Red Zaku]

Sorry for the long absence, I've been traveling alot over the past month. Im just re-reading everyones comments so i wont repeat anything.

You don't actually have any points left. So far your argument for SEED mode making Kira superior is a wash. We've shown that Lacus can go SEED mode, so it isn't anything uber special. ANd the idea Kira is more skilled, we showed he sucks in mecha after he gets used to Freedom, and that Heero is still kicking serious ass in mecha 17 years older then the mobile suit he's most accustomed to. >> What can there possibly be left to discuss? Just let this topic die. Being wrong on a messageboard is not the worst thing in the world.

[Kevin01230]

Everyone listen as in my previous post, the biggest difference is that they were in 2 different eras. Cosmic Era = Seed/Destiny and After Colony = Wing.

But alot of the gundams fights are based on the severity of their skill. To support this, Id like to explain 2 things for both Heero and Kira.

For Kira, when he got his new Strike Freedom Gundam, he was attacked by Zaku grunts, and then trapped in the ropes of the Gouf Igniteds. Yes we all understand that pilots do falter but a pilot who is trying to kill the main pilot of Wing shouldnt be able to be captured sos easily by grunts. Also another was when Shinn was facing Kira and his Freedom in his Impulse. When both were in SEED mode, Kira was being overwhelmed by the battle tactics of Shinn, and even though he was trying to disable the unit, Kira was pummeled with the force silhouette being blown up, the shield and a shot in the shoulder armor, also being impaled in the neutron jammer canceller and a section near the power output.

However Heero does falter as well, for example, in the first episode, Heero had his Wing Gundam shot down by the leos however everyone's skills progresses throughout the anime including Seed and Destiny. Also in the special 3 episode finale, Endless Waltz, Heero used a leo against Chang Wufeis Altron / Nataku gundam however seemed like he lost because he injured the suit and couldnt keep operating the suit. Also in the Atmospheric battle of Zero and Nataku, even though Heero didnt try, he had his suit injured and sustained enough damage from the battle and the pressure of the sea under him to have his suit destroyed by the recoil of the twin buster rifle which was being shot at the Mariemeia defense base.

However both Gundams have the firepower to destroy a whole fleet of grunts and blow up colonies. In wing, Quatre with the zero system went up to a colony, EASILY avoiding the shots being fired at him and then destroyed the suits and then the colony, while in Seed and Destiny destroyed a whole battle fortress, battle ships and grunts beause of the dragoon and the firepower of the mid range gundam but couldnt avoid shots easily for example, his battle against Rau le Creuset.

However instead of asking which GUNDA is better, lets put both Heero and Kira in a zaku and fight, but you cannot have a zero system nor can you have seed mode, and i know this sis impossible because seed mode is the bodies final defense or soemthing like that but it would be nice to see it that way wouldnt it?

However if the Gundams were involved, Id vote for wing and Heero again because the Zero system allows the pilot have multiple possibilities in combat and what to do while Seed mode just enhances the pilots performance for example, shinn and athrun in the final battle protecting the Messiah. Also you have to put in fact that the freedom has a standard shield with a rifle hole while the wing has a melee shield that was able to rip apart a leo mobile suit easily. Also when fully empty, Zero Gundam is about 8 tons while the Freedom is about 71.5 tons, Zero's height is 16.7meters while Freedom is about 18.3 meters. So you also have to put in the speeds of the gundam, also the battery lives, which are both nuclear powered.

[Altron]

Mobile Suit Wise i give it to freedom, though pilot wise even with Kira's Seed ability, Heero Yuy unlike most characters in the gundam series has no problem taking life, and killing. Kira could not even kill Yzak when he had lots of chances, and in destiny when he could have destroyed Shinn and the impulse/destiny gundam instead of trying to disable it. Mentality wise heero would be much more of a deadly opponent aiming to totally destroy and kill, while kira always tries to cripple and not kill.

[Red Zaku]

Everyone listen as in my previous post, the biggest difference is that they were in 2 different eras. Cosmic Era = Seed/Destiny and After Colony = Wing.

Newtype, and myself already cover this only one page ago. A different era doesn't change the basic facts that Kira get's worked over by GRUNTS outside of Freedom Gundam, and Heero using a Grunt machine actually massacres people and put's up a damn good fight again Wufei.

But alot of the gundams fights are based on the severity of their skill. To support this, Id like to explain 2 things for both Heero and Kira.

Already taken care you so far could have saved this post as there doesn't seem to be a need for it. We've covered every aspect of BOTH pilots as evidenced by the last three full pages of rants where Newtype and myself both put forth a wall of evidence showing Zero is the superior machine, and Heero the better pilot. x.x If I have to I suppose I'll copy and paste all the previous links into a new post if it ends this topic right here.

However Heero does falter as well, for example, in the first episode, Heero had his Wing Gundam shot down by the leos however everyone's skills progresses throughout the anime including Seed and Destiny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gygLcI3K0tk
>.> Zechs doesn't beat Heero. Heero, doesn't even lose. Zechs basically has to body hug Wing Gundam, to keep it restrained. The only reason Zechs lives is because he's ya know an ace pilot, and he smartly uses his falling speed to help him dodge the BR shot instead of being caught still attached to his shoot by a Buster Rifle shot. Also the reaosn Zechs can dodge is because the Buster Rifle has only a three shot charge. Heero pretty obviously took down the power for the second shot to save on his bema rifles power.

Also in the special 3 episode finale, Endless Waltz, Heero used a leo against Chang Wufeis Altron / Nataku gundam however seemed like he lost because he injured the suit and couldnt keep operating the suit.

Heero took minor damage, Wufei doesn't injure the suit to the point it can't operate, newtype and myself posted a link to that fight back on page 13. Heero evenb though he can still fight steps out of the cockpit because he wants Wufei to explain to him why he must fight. Heero for his part actually has Wufei expending quite a lot of effort to hit Heero.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S3GyfIQI4c
8:07-8:15. Heero takes out a small group of Leo's using only a beam saber
9:00-10:13. Heero takes on Wufei and manages to make a damn good fight of it in a Leo. So much so Wufei is only able to get two hits on him.

Also in the Atmospheric battle of Zero and Nataku, even though Heero didnt try, he had his suit injured and sustained enough damage from the battle and the pressure of the sea under him to have his suit destroyed by the recoil of the twin buster rifle which was being shot at the Mariemeia defense base.

Again you siad it yourself. Zero is damaged because Heero isn't trying. Zero takes damage from atmospheric re-entry because he folds up his wings way too late, and when he's well inside the stratosphere. This is a horrible example of Wing Zero's abilities considering Heero essentially is doing everything in his power to damage Zero so it will never be used again.

However both Gundams have the firepower to destroy a whole fleet of grunts and blow up colonies.

Freedom has never been shown capable of blowing up a colony. Hell, unless he has anything to match the heavy ion cannon which was basically an adapted ship's main gun shoved onto a GiNN he likely couldn't do anything to actually damage a colony with his weapons load out. The shear thickness of a colonies wall would easily negate most of the damage Kira could dish out. Maybe if he attacked the glass, had METEOR, or was inside the colony next to it's anchoring point. But without any of those conditions? Hell no.

In wing, Quatre with the zero system went up to a colony, EASILY avoiding the shots being fired at him and then destroyed the suits and then the colony, while in Seed and Destiny destroyed a whole battle fortress, battle ships and grunts beause of the dragoon and the firepower of the mid range gundam but couldnt avoid shots easily for example, his battle against Rau le Creuset.

>.> Kira didn't destroy any Fortress in SEED or Destiny. In SEED it was Miguel, owning a colony by shooting it's anchor point, and Athrun who had to self detonate Justice to cause a chain reaction that blue up Genesis, and in Destiny It's Mwu, and Athrun who finish off Neo Genesis, and Requiem doesn't get blown up, by either Kira or Athrun who are both out of their MS and pointing guns at Durandal's head.

However instead of asking which GUNDA is better, lets put both Heero and Kira in a zaku and fight, but you cannot have a zero system nor can you have seed mode,

Except that's NOT the fight AT ALL. >.> EVER. The fight is Heero vs. Kira using Freedom and Wing. We've already shown Wing gets the fire power advantage thanks to Kira having NOTHING as strong as the TBR, we've illustrated Wing has the mobility advantage thanks to it's Wing's which allow 360 degrees of thrust. That means Zero can change it's attack direction at any time it wishes, and in any direction, all thanks to those Wings. Then we also proceeded to illustrate that Zero's armor is shown capable of taking and deflecting shots from beam weapons pretty easily. Freedom? Yeah not so much it like all mecha in SEED would be completely screwed if it was hit with a beam weapon.

and i know this sis impossible because seed mode is the bodies final defense or soemthing like that but it would be nice to see it that way wouldnt it?

Not really since Kira is far too dependant on the Freedom/Strike Freedom to ever hope to beat Heero who doesn't care if he's in Zero or a grunt MS he still pilots incredibly well in both. Hell a Zaku despite the lack of beam weapons would be a step up from a Leo which has no decernable thrust/boost systems of anykind. The end result from this debate is we ended up showing since 3 pages now that Wing was the better machine, and Heero could pilot circles around Kira even on his worst day. Allow me to illustrate with more links from the past! :D

[I]But we can estimate it's weight based on the increase in total weight on an MS like F-91 which is incredibly close to Zero in both height, and weight. Also I feel the mobility issue can be cleared up by the fact Wing Zero's angle wings not only provide amazing stability in melee combat but allow for 360 degrees of thrust vectoring a trait lacked by the S-Freedom, and even the original Freedom. The proof for this claim can be found in the following topic on mechatalk. http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.p...748454e7f66748

Ok, well here's another interesting note the Wing Zero's Twin Buster Rifle in double barrel configuration can fire a beam up to 150 meters wide. That is barely a fraction of what gets shown in the anime. That source comes directly from Wing Zero's technical manual's and is mentioned in this topic on MechaTalk. http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=8254

Once again, I have to point that dodging DRAGOON's is insanely easy. They have to stop to fire making them sitting ducks before they can unleash any kind of pain on a target. Its actually sort of embarrassing that Kira doesn't shoot any down. Plus Rau was a poor shot heaving trouble hitting a wide load target such as METEOR. Then there is the fact Heero has used P-Denfensors on the Mercurius as makeshift offensive weapons and you really seed Heero as an ingenious pilot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxYVNAZLzBs Further proof of Heero's brains he actually plans out the revolution intervals of the Colonies gravity rings in order to take out two mobile dolls following behind him.

[Biolink]

Mobile Suit Wise i give it to freedom

That's kind of been disproven already:

Gundarium>Varial Phase Shift
Wing Zero is more agile
Although it doesn't have as many weapons TBR rifle alone>All of Freedom's weapons combined

Freedom can't beat Wing Zero in any category that comes to mind

[simsoy]

i found some info on the zero and the freedom:

zero
Wing Zero's primary armament is the Twin Buster Rifle, a weapon capable of destroying objects several miles in size, like a space colony. When separated into two individual Buster Rifles, the rifles could destroy entire waves of targets. Like the Wing Gundam, Wing Zero is also capable of transforming into a flying machine, known as "Neo-Bird" mode, and allowing the suit to travel long distances at high speed.

The main feature of Wing Zero is the ZERO System, a combat computer/pilot interface installed in the cockpit. The ZERO system connects directly with the mind of the pilot, flooding him with combat data and possible outcomes. This overload of data could allow the pilot to achieve total victory, but places great mental and emotional stress on the pilot. Those exposed to ZERO (an acronym for Zoning and Emotional Range Omitted) System can become totally unstable, unable to tell the difference between friend and foe. Victims may even suffer mental breakdown or death. The latter occurred when an OZ soldier, obsessed with the capabilities of Wing Zero and the ZERO system, used it to challenge Duo Maxwell, the pilot of Deathscythe Hell, and eventually went insane and later died during the battle.

During Katoki's redesign for Endless Waltz, the design of Wing Zero is streamlined, with new armour and recolouring to almost solely blue and white. The main change was the addition of angel-like wing binders, which could also be used as a re-entry shield. The design changes eliminated the "Neo-Bird" mode. The wing binders were equipped with dozens of miniature vernier thrusters, granting the mobile suit unparalleled mobility in flight. The Endless Waltz Wing Zero is referred to as Wing Zero Custom by Bandai in its model kit releases, and also by fans. However, the latest official title of this MS has been finally determined to be "Wing Gundam Zero (Endless Waltz)"

freedom
The Strike Freedom is armed with new advanced weaponry, giving it several times the combat capability of the original Freedom thanks to advancement in technology which takes place in the roughly two year gap, chronogically, that separates their constructions.

Apart from the head-mounted CIWS and "Super Lacerta" beam sabers, the Strike Freedom is equipped with a pair of "Xiphias 3" rail cannons on its hips, a smaller and more refined version of its predecessor, and a chest-mounted "Callidus" multi-phase beam cannon. It also carries two high energy beam rifles that can combine into a longer, more powerful weapon similar to the GAT-X103 Buster's ability to combine its main armaments into a more powerful weapon. These rifles can be stored on the hips by having the rail cannons swivel to the rear of the suit. For defensive purposes the Strike Freedom is equipped with beam shields which are mounted on its forearms.

Much like the suit it’s based on, the most distinctive feature of the Strike Freedom is the set of wings housed on its backpack/thruster array. These wings give the Strike Freedom an updated HiMAT (High Maneuver Aerial Tactical) mode akin to the Freedom. In addition, it has the "Voiture Lumière" booster engine on its "wing", first employed by GSX-401FW Stargazer and Delta Astray. Unlike its predecessor, the wings are part of the Strike Freedom's weaponry as the blue sections of the eight wing components can detach and operate as remote "Super" DRAGOON units, each mounting one beam assault cannon.

Like its predecessor, the unit is equipped with hardpoints to dock with the METEOR (Mobile suit Embedded Tactical EnfORcer) weapon system. The Strike Freedom utilises an updated version of the Generation Unsubdued Nuclear Drive Assault Module complex operating system.

It is also interesting that when Strike Freedom was shown in the third opening animation of Gundam SEED Destiny, its head crest displayed the words "Liberta Modifica", which is "Modified Freedom" in Latin. Starting with episode 39 the words were changed to read "X-20A VENTI", which is "Twenty" in Italian, a reference to the Strike Freedom's model number.

[Tomoya]

Kira is broken. :lmao

[Biolink]

Not really.

Judau was broken. Amuro was broken.

Kira good pilot, nothing more.

[Red Zaku]

Not really.

Judau was broken. Amuro was broken.

Kira good pilot, nothing more.

No, Kira was pretty much broken. There wasn't anything good about him as a pilot. Most of the time he was barely passable, and it shows when he fights Shinn in Episode 34 of Destiny. The fact he has such dominance in CE stems from the fact he is the directors avatar, and little more.

[alexxb]

Kira is a great pilot.

[Red Zaku]

Kira is a great pilot.

Let's use episode 43 as an example of what Kira can do that supposedly makes him a great pilot.

Kira demonstrates his unwillingness (at least at first) to kill an enemy pilot, despite said enemy pilot obviously being far superior to the grunts he has been fighting. he's even seen the Impulse at least twice prior to this, and probably gave him the most trouble of any enemy pilot since he chose to pilot the Freedom again. Kira gives a worthy opponent a handicap (self-induced, and easily reversible on a whim from Kira,) and his opponent walks all over it, that is definitely usable evidence to comment on Kira's fighting ability, because that shows poor judgment in combat and it shows that his skills aren't so superior to his opponent, that he could wipe the floor with him while going "easy" on him. Not to mention Shinn defeats him, while he fights like that, the very same fighting style that is so often used as evidence to show Kira's superior fighting skill over anyone. Kira normally fights like that and apparently owns (almost) everyone, but it doesn't work on Shinn, therefore, one could conclude, that Shinn is at least better than Kira's typical "godly" fighting style. It could also be used to point out that Kira's not very good at adapting to new tactics and/or covering the shortcomings of his own style. We don't ever see Kira really alter his tactics much from the point he initially gets Freedom in GS.

Kira also demonstrates that he is a rather poor escort for the Archangel. The majority of the duel with Shinn, the Archangel was left to it's own devises against the Minerva, and a renewed assault from the other ZAFT unit. If Kira was going easy on Shinn, he put the AA in serious jeopardy, all because of a silly philosophy, that he employs when it caters to his will (While I don't ever recall him out right saying "I don't ever kill", I hear enough of that noise from Kira's fans that "he doesn't ever kill"). As we end up seeing, Archangel takes serious damage from the Minerva's main gun and they sacrifice a portion of the ship as a diversion to make their escape (how the ship manages to escape, really is still beyond me, but w/e), when Kira should have been putting pressure on the Minerva, taking out ZAFT grunts, not dueling an enemy ace, especially, going easy on him. Kira was clearly focusing more of his effort/concentration on fighting Impulse, than he was escorting the Archangel.

Taking all that into account, hearing that Kira could have taken Impulse easily, seems unlikely, but if not, and he was truly going easy on Shinn, Kira is an absolute fool for putting so much on the line, just to prove a point and maintain a philosophy that is both hypocritical to his actions and completely inconsiderate of his friends and allies. So much so that this seriously puts his judgment into question as it CLEARLY played a role in this battle.

To summerize, Kira can't adapt during a fight in Freedom Gundam, he fails at analyzing his enemies combat potential, he sucks at protecting his friends when up against anyone with even the slightest bit of skill, he's not very good at dodging anything, and unless the enemy gets close if the rival pilot even attempts to dodge Kira usually misses. While most of those factors never come up regularly against a foe in CE, there are grunts, in UC, AW, AC, CC, and FC that would walk all over Kira because of his utter failure once he leaves the Strike Gundam. Heck, it's not even like it took Shinn to highlight these flaws either. Kira getting beaten around pretty routinely by the Druggies in the original SEED is just as good analysis of his piloting skills as his failure at the hands of Shinn.

[alexxb]

LoL. Kira is better than Shinn, Fact.

Back to what I was saying, Kira is a great pilot. Kira has been able to adapt many times during his time with the Strike (Dessert, Water, Space fights). Now, Kira with Freedom is very different than with Strike. In strike, it was all about survival (Pretty much Kira at his finest). But, in Freedom it is all about disabling his opponents. Kira has the ability to fight while giving his opponents a handicap/not trying to kill them but disable them, something not many pilots can do. Do you know how difficult it must be to attack someone without trying to kill them?? Every attack Kira makes, he must take into account where is not a serious blow/cause an explosion of some sort that will kill the pilot. That alone, proves that Kira is a great pilot.

Now, lets move on to Shinn. Before that, lets take a look at Shinn's personality. He is obviously an unstable person as seen in GSD. He gets mad a Cagalli as soon as he sees her, you might have a 'grudge' against her, but show some respect. Your just a some pilot and your bad mouthing the 'president' of a country. Then he just walks away every time like what he did/said is acceptable or never happened. Also, he seems to hate Kira for killing his beloved Stella. The same Stella who was on a rampage destroying the area (which also happened to be ZAFTs) that wouldn't stop for anyone. On top of all that, he is easily controlled be Rey. Seriously, he is just mindless puppet.

Now, lets see how truly amazing Shinn is. Shinn is decent-good pilot no doubt, as he has been able to hold his own on Easy-Medium Kira. After all, Shinn is a graduate of the ZAFT and one of the top students. However, Shinn has 1 huge luxury over Kira that makes you question his piloting skills. What is it?? Its that impulse can change weapons/armor in a battle. Think about, how many times would Shinn have died if he couldn't say

"Minevera Launch ________ Now"

Kira doesn't have that luxury. He has to fight with he has at the moment and not be bailed out by his ship. He does this again in Episode 42 on which his battery runs out (careless Shinn, that will get you killed if you didn't have back-up) and Kira could have easily destroyed Shinn then and there but the Rey must come and save Shinn before this happens. Now, if this was Kira back in Strike it would be different. Kira couldn't just leave the battle when his battery ran out, what did you do?? Took out his 2 blades, no armor and fought/survived the fight (See the fight against Andrew Waltfeld). Don't forget, this is still 'Rookie' Kira.

Now, lets talk about this GSD Episode 34. Do you really think Kira couldn't win that battle if he was trying to win (kill) and wasn't distracted by the Archangel?? Kira had the opportunity to kill Shinn if he wanted to, which is when he sliced of Impulses head which could have easily been the cockpit/chest. Right there, Shinn lost, as he had to bailed out when he called out for parts. He also does this again, when he needs to get the long sword.

Plus, Shinn doesn't even find out how to beat Kira on his on, he has to have Rey point out to him Kira's weakness which is how he 'beat' Kira. Plus he has time to prepare for the fight (many simulations).

Also, you seem to leave out Ep. 42 on which Kira and Shinn fight again in there new Gundams (this time with no distractions). Kira attacks Shinn with his 2 side dragoons and Shinn himself says "This would've ended already, if that was a beam".

Shinn is not as good a pilot as Kira.

EDIT:

Also, lets not forget the fact that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator.

[Altron]

The only thing Kira lacks to become a truly deadly pilot IMO, is a willingness to kill, destroy, hate. If he had that, he would be a pretty deadly mobile suit pilot.

[alexxb]

That is how, I guess, he becomes balanced out.

[NewtypeS3]

Back to what I was saying, Kira is a great pilot. Kira has been able to adapt many times during his time with the Strike (Dessert, Water, Space fights).
...by programming his operating system to adapt for him in the first place in the desert environment (all the other pilots actually adapt rather than make the suit do it for 'em), using different weapons underwater (common sense, not skill) and using the actual original specifics for the mobile suit (space combat and solid land combat are default, you know...).
Yes, certainly those examples are the hallmarks of someone who can program a computer well and has vague tactical thoughts!

...wait, you said 'greatly skilled'? Oh, sorry. You might wanna look outside the Cosmic Era for that.

Now, Kira with Freedom is very different than with Strike. In strike, it was all about survival (Pretty much Kira at his finest). But, in Freedom it is all about disabling his opponents.
Yes, Kira in the Strike was rather creative and skilled - in spite of the fact that he actually refused to adapt to new environments and made the mobile suit adjust for his own deficits.
However, once Kira got his hands on the Freedom, he wound up completely losing that creativity and just went for the laziest possible ways to fight. Even when against the Druggies, Kira refused to notice that the beam weaponry he had was being deflected away from the Forbidden - meaning that melee combat would have been needed... but he avoided that like the plague while in the Freedom. In fact, it took Rau killing Fllay to make Kira actually work for his fights - before that moment, all Kira did was vaguely dodge and make stupid comments. After her death, though, Kira... blindly charged forward, lost limbs by the truckload and stabbed the cockpit once.

Yeah, fantastic displays of skill there.

Kira has the ability to fight while giving his opponents a handicap/not trying to kill them but disable them, something not many pilots can do.
I hate to say it, but Kira never really had to fight against people of comperable skill... who were trying to kill him at the time.
Athrun? Never once tried to kill Kira aside from their one last fight in Seed - and in that fight, Athrun gets the obvious win chalked up after a brutal beating. And then in Destiny, is utterly useless until he defects to join Lacus again.
The Druggies? Only when all three are fighting him at once do they have a chance to utterly slaughter him... and then Athrun comes in and saves the day repeatedly.
Rau? Utterly horrible as a pilot, not even a threat with a more advanced mobile suit.
The Extendeds? Like Rau in skill-level... only when they're working as one. And they never work as one.

In fact, it wasn't until Shin that Kira was seriously threatened and had to defend himself from someone around his skill level...
...and he lost miserably.

Do you know how difficult it must be to attack someone without trying to kill them??
Yes, I do. The entire cast of Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz did it, too. And guys like Trowa Barton did it with gattling guns and missiles, something insanely innacurate!
That said, Kira had it easy... because he programmed his operating system to avoid cockpit shots and instead only aim for limbs and so forth.

Even then, though, Kira still most likely indirectly killed them... simply because of the fact that just because someone's been shot in the leg doesn't mean they'll automatically survive or be left alone till the battle's over.

Every attack Kira makes, he must take into account where is not a serious blow/cause an explosion of some sort that will kill the pilot.
And you know that, how? Because we've seen that even losing an arm or taking a simple round in the side will kill the pilot.
We've seen Kira disable people over the ocean - and the impact alone would kill anyone, not to mention mobile suits don't float. We've seen Kira disable people in space, where they drift uselessly and might die of the cold/lack of oxygen... or being shot by another enemy. Hell, he even disabled the enemy at the first battle of Orb... but the problem with that is the fact that Orb later essentially exploded in firey death, wiping them all out.

Whoops.

Now, lets move on to Shinn. Before that, lets take a look at Shinn's personality. He is obviously an unstable person as seen in GSD.
Unstable... how? Shin lost his entire family two years ago when the homeland he trusted and loved essentially betrayed their standards of neutrality and essentially thumbed their nose to the world repeatedly... finally paying for it in a completely stupid way.
The fact that Shin lost his family alone makes much of his attitude understandable to someone with even a vague psychological background. He's a young, rebellious teenager who is then confronted with a country that apparently doesn't care a bit for it's people at all - and when you're below 20, even 2 years of your life is a vast stretch of time in your life. However, rather than regressing into himself, Shin uses this as his drive to push himself forward - his reason for being in ZAFT is so no one else like him will be made (war orphans, emotionally scarred people, ect) from Humanity's stupidity.

Unless you can claim without a shadow of doubt you'd be completely emotionally stable two years after your entire family was slaughtered before your eyes for no actual reason, I don't think you can claim Shin's actually 'unstable.'

He gets mad a Cagalli as soon as he sees her, you might have a 'grudge' against her, but show some respect.
He has a grudge against the entire Attha family, especially considering the fact that he sees the Attha family as the reason Orb refused to actually be neutral (neutrality is providing equal aid to both sides, not just helping 'when one feels like it')... and as we saw in Seed, he's actually right.
Besides, having respect for the Atthas would require Shin to respect them in the first place.

Your just a some pilot and your bad mouthing the 'president' of a country.
Doesn't stop 'just a civilian' from bad-mouthing George W. Bush, despite not even having lived in the country.
Doesn't stop 'just a soldier' from bad-mouthing George W. Bush, despite protecting the same country.

And even then, people are entitled to their opinion - hence the whole concept of a political debate. And considering Cagali couldn't come up with an actual counter-argument... it makes me think Shin might have had a serious point, rage aside.

Then he just walks away every time like what he did/said is acceptable or never happened.
He said what he wanted to say, why bother sticking around?

Also, he seems to hate Kira for killing his beloved Stella.
...and you wouldn't hate a person who killed someone who was like a little sister to you? I mean, proclaiming this makes Shin 'unstable' is like proclaiming Kira 'unstable' because he was angry that Fllay died.

The same Stella who was on a rampage destroying the area (which also happened to be ZAFTs) that wouldn't stop for anyone.
...except that she was stopping for Shin, and as we've seen before... Stella doesn't actually have any control over her actions.
Did you actually pay attention to Seed, man?

On top of all that, he is easily controlled be Rey. Seriously, he is just mindless puppet.
...guess not.

Blah, blah, blah, stuff we've already dealt with before in this topic, but I was too lazy to bother reading
Yeah... and this would have a bearing if this was 'Kira vs Shin' and not 'Kira vs Heero Yuy.' Not to mention the fact that Shin beat Kira the first time and Kira was unable to beat Shin once... instead only tying with him the rest of the series.

Also, lets not forget the fact that Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator.
...which means that Kira came out as his genetic engineering intended in the first place. Brown hair, purple eyes, scrawny frame, crying like a dying horse and so on.
That's all it means: he's the perfect designer baby. This is why Rau made such a big deal over it, because the people of CE are so damned shallow.

Kira is far from 'Ultimate' outside that definition, as we've seen repeatedly.

[alexxb]

...by programming his operating system to adapt for him in the first place in the desert environment (all the other pilots actually adapt rather than make the suit do it for 'em), using different weapons underwater (common sense, not skill) and using the actual original specifics for the mobile suit (space combat and solid land combat are default, you know...).
Yes, certainly those examples are the hallmarks of someone who can program a computer well and has vague tactical thoughts!

...wait, you said 'greatly skilled'? Oh, sorry. You might wanna look outside the Cosmic Era for that.

Oh course it is skill to program you Gundam to adapt to the current conditions, especially the ones he was in. How is adjusting your Gundam to fight a better not a skill?? Why do people still question Kira's ability as a pilot, you don't become commander (in ZAFT) for fighting horrible.


Yes, Kira in the Strike was rather creative and skilled - in spite of the fact that he actually refused to adapt to new environments and made the mobile suit adjust for his own deficits.
However, once Kira got his hands on the Freedom, he wound up completely losing that creativity and just went for the laziest possible ways to fight. Even when against the Druggies, Kira refused to notice that the beam weaponry he had was being deflected away from the Forbidden - meaning that melee combat would have been needed... but he avoided that like the plague while in the Freedom. In fact, it took Rau killing Fllay to make Kira actually work for his fights - before that moment, all Kira did was vaguely dodge and make stupid comments. After her death, though, Kira... blindly charged forward, lost limbs by the truckload and stabbed the cockpit once.

Yeah, fantastic displays of skill there.

What do you expect Kira to do adapt other than adjusting his mobile suit?? Call out a new weapon, ask for help?? Oh sorry, this isn't Shinn. Kira doesn't have suck luxuries. Kira dodges vaguely (LoL) and his opponent misses, is that his fault because I consider that (Dodging ability) a great skill that he can continue to use while fighting.


I hate to say it, but Kira never really had to fight against people of comperable skill... who were trying to kill him at the time.
Athrun? Never once tried to kill Kira aside from their one last fight in Seed - and in that fight, Athrun gets the obvious win chalked up after a brutal beating. And then in Destiny, is utterly useless until he defects to join Lacus again.
The Druggies? Only when all three are fighting him at once do they have a chance to utterly slaughter him... and then Athrun comes in and saves the day repeatedly.
Rau? Utterly horrible as a pilot, not even a threat with a more advanced mobile suit.
The Extendeds? Like Rau in skill-level... only when they're working as one. And they never work as one.

In fact, it wasn't until Shin that Kira was seriously threatened and had to defend himself from someone around his skill level...
...and he lost miserably.

Trying to kill him?? This is war, everyone is trying to kill their opponent (well except Kira, seeing as he as the ability not kill during a battle and choose to use it). Again, Kira not having a challenge is not his fault. He gives them a handicap and they still can't beat him. He is a great pilot. Re-watch Episode 34, does it even look like Kira was trying to fight?? He was distracted like 3 times in that battle. Fair fight, no. Why?? Shinn has to go through simulations and again be helped out (by Rey) to get his winning strategy.


Yes, I do. The entire cast of Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz did it, too. And guys like Trowa Barton did it with gattling guns and missiles, something insanely innacurate!
That said, Kira had it easy... because he programmed his operating system to avoid cockpit shots and instead only aim for limbs and so forth.

Even then, though, Kira still most likely indirectly killed them... simply because of the fact that just because someone's been shot in the leg doesn't mean they'll automatically survive or be left alone till the battle's over.

I wonder how insanely accurate 7 beams that can only shoot straight (Not curve) are in space taking out at least 20 Gundams who aren't just lined up, but scattered arcoss space.

I'm sorry, but I don't recall the episode on which they say Kira programs his machine to avoid the cockpit. I do remember Andrew Walts saying that he can't avoid killing the other pilots as well as Kira. I don't think it is because he can't program his machine to avoid cockpits, but this is rather a skill.


And you know that, how? Because we've seen that even losing an arm or taking a simple round in the side will kill the pilot.
We've seen Kira disable people over the ocean - and the impact alone would kill anyone, not to mention mobile suits don't float. We've seen Kira disable people in space, where they drift uselessly and might die of the cold/lack of oxygen... or being shot by another enemy. Hell, he even disabled the enemy at the first battle of Orb... but the problem with that is the fact that Orb later essentially exploded in firey death, wiping them all out.

Whoops.

You save some lives, you lose some. If they can't survive (Eject Cockpit and get close to their fleet and throw some flares) then they deserve to die. You make it seem that Kira's foes don't have fleets and retreat their fallen soldiers.


Unstable... how? Shin lost his entire family two years ago when the homeland he trusted and loved essentially betrayed their standards of neutrality and essentially thumbed their nose to the world repeatedly... finally paying for it in a completely stupid way.
The fact that Shin lost his family alone makes much of his attitude understandable to someone with even a vague psychological background. He's a young, rebellious teenager who is then confronted with a country that apparently doesn't care a bit for it's people at all - and when you're below 20, even 2 years of your life is a vast stretch of time in your life. However, rather than regressing into himself, Shin uses this as his drive to push himself forward - his reason for being in ZAFT is so no one else like him will be made (war orphans, emotionally scarred people, ect) from Humanity's stupidity.

Unless you can claim without a shadow of doubt you'd be completely emotionally stable two years after your entire family was slaughtered before your eyes for no actual reason, I don't think you can claim Shin's actually 'unstable.'

I would be mad/sad and etc if my parents died right in front of my eyes and I was just a kids/teen, but 2 years to recover. I think I would be able to accept it and move on with my life. Also, whats up with the whole cell phone thing. You listen to your dead sisters voice-mail just to hear her voice. I don't know about you but that seems a bit strange.


He has a grudge against the entire Attha family, especially considering the fact that he sees the Attha family as the reason Orb refused to actually be neutral (neutrality is providing equal aid to both sides, not just helping 'when one feels like it')... and as we saw in Seed, he's actually right.
Besides, having respect for the Atthas would require Shin to respect them in the first place.

Doesn't matter if he has a grudge, he should have that attitude in check/control himself.


Doesn't stop 'just a civilian' from bad-mouthing George W. Bush, despite not even having lived in the country.
Doesn't stop 'just a soldier' from bad-mouthing George W. Bush, despite protecting the same country.

And even then, people are entitled to their opinion - hence the whole concept of a political debate. And considering Cagali couldn't come up with an actual counter-argument... it makes me think Shin might have had a serious point, rage aside.

He is a soldier who is suppose learn respect and classes. President>>>>>>>>>Some Pilot. Again, get that attitude/rage in check and show some respect.


He said what he wanted to say, why bother sticking around?

Punishment would have been nice.


...and you wouldn't hate a person who killed someone who was like a little sister to you? I mean, proclaiming this makes Shin 'unstable' is like proclaiming Kira 'unstable' because he was angry that Fllay died.

I would hate the person who killed someone who was like my little sister if they had no reason/senseless kill. Which in this case, was not.



...except that she was stopping for Shin, and as we've seen before... Stella doesn't actually have any control over her actions.
Did you actually pay attention to Seed, man?

Stella doesn't have control of her actions, so why would she stop rampaging for her beloved Shinn when she is being controlled/brainwashed??


...guess not.

So easily manipulated by Rey.


Yeah... and this would have a bearing if this was 'Kira vs Shin' and not 'Kira vs Heero Yuy.' Not to mention the fact that Shin beat Kira the first time and Kira was unable to beat Shin once... instead only tying with him the rest of the series.

Watch episode 34. Does Shinn win fairly?? Watch episodes 42-43. Who [would have] won that?? Shinn was bailed out by Rey.


...which means that Kira came out as his genetic engineering intended in the first place. Brown hair, purple eyes, scrawny frame, crying like a dying horse and so on.
That's all it means: he's the perfect designer baby. This is why Rau made such a big deal over it, because the people of CE are so damned shallow.

Kira is far from 'Ultimate' outside that definition, as we've seen repeatedly.

Um, no. Being the ultimate coordinator means that Kira can do things above what a coordinator can do (which is already amazing). One advantage of this on the battlefield?? Kira being a complete noob in the Strike (first few episodes) and still defeating a ZAFT graduate. Then, he learns to fight more and more to the point that he doesn't even have to kill his opponents, simply disable. Oh yeah, lets not forget the adapting skill.

[Red Zaku]

What do you expect Kira to do adapt other than adjusting his mobile suit??

Oh I dunno, make the corrections himself without relying heavily on his mobile suits compute to make the extra effort? Before Gundam SEED, and even after that's what EVERY GUNDAM PILOT had done. They adapted their own skills to best suit the environment, and didn't make the mobile suit compensate for them. >.> Kira sort of throws that proud tradition of Gundam piloting down the crapper. Literally.

Call out a new weapon, ask for help?? Oh sorry, this isn't Shinn.

Resorting to the tired excuse of Shinn cheated? You do know Shinn is damaged a grand total of ONE TIME in the entire fight. And it's only when Shinn enters melee combat with Kira and he gets overly careless. Not to mention evne calling out the Striker pack to develiver the Anti-Ship Sword and beam boomerangs still doesn't make Impulse match Freedom's total firepower. >.> So what are you bitching about here? Kira lost because Shinn with fewer weapons, managed to use his mobile suit in far more creative ways and outclassed Kira so naturally Shinn is cheating?

Kira doesn't have suck luxuries.

Ok, this almost made me wet myself, I was laughing so hard. Apparently being in the most advanced death machine in the CE timeline even into early Destiny offers no advantage at all. >> Not like Kira doesn't have more weapons then Impulse, better armor by virtue of the fact it has no power constraints, and a far more advanced targeting computer given the fact it has to be readily adaptable for the variations on the types of weapons the Freedom comes equiped with. Kira failing miserably to use the Freedom to it's fullest potention is hardly the fault of Shinn.

Kira dodges vaguely (LoL) and his opponent misses, is that his fault because I consider that (Dodging ability) a great skill that he can continue to use while fighting.

>.> It of course doesn't take great skill to get out of the way of a shot fired directly infront of you, when you have plenty of notice ahead of time. Hell,m it's a bit embarrassing the shots come as close as they do since very often attacks directed at the Freedom are telegraphed. Show me Kira dodging a round fired behind him at the very last possible second. You can't, but that would be a good example of actual pilot skill. You know like Amuro, Judau, Heero, Quatre, Wufei, Garrod, Zechs, Jamil, Char, Roybea, Witz, Roux, Haman, Paptimus, Yazan, Puru 1&2, Jerid, Mour, Lila, Rosamia, Loran, Kou, Gato, and Seabook all do on a regular basis.

Hell, you want to see impressive dodging skills just watch Amuro vs. anyones funnels. Or Heero in Evolve 6 as he dodges through the rings of colony and actually uses them to destroy enemy MS following him. Hell, Birgit Pirjo pilot of the RGM-109 Heavygun actually puts on a grand display of dodging psycommu controllled Buggs before he gets taken out. >.> See, this is how embarrassing Kira is, he's never been in the level of tight spots as a glorified named grunt, and he still routinely looks worse then him.


Trying to kill him?? This is war, everyone is trying to kill their opponent (well except Kira, seeing as he as the ability not kill during a battle and choose to use it). Again, Kira not having a challenge is not his fault. He gives them a handicap and they still can't beat him.

Not true at all. >.> Kira gives them a handicap and when he gets beat people like you cry the person who beat him cheated and it shouldn't count. That seems to be about the jist of it. Shinn used three weapons from a different silhouette, and used his damage parts as a weapon, and replaced his parts once becuase Kira only hit him once. So Shinn was cheating.... That seems to be the basic defense when it's pointed out Kira lost. And for all this talk of skill, Kira got his ass kicked by the Druggies, and by Rau. So where this illussion of his skill comes from it certianly wasn't the anime. Maybe in a universe were grunts don't even attempt to dodge, but.... he's barely named grunt material outside of CE.

He is a great pilot. Re-watch Episode 34, does it even look like Kira was trying to fight??

Yes. He goes SEED mode which by definition is the "Physical representation of surpassing ones limits." Sort of hard to explain why he'd need to go past his own limits if he wasn't trying no? But then the grunting the obvious fatigue setting in on Kira as the fight progresses, and the fact he starts taking a few shots at Shinn's cockpit....well that seems like not only trying but pure desparation.

He was distracted like 3 times in that battle.

So being distracted = not trying? What? And being distracted is no one's fault but Kira's really you just illustrated Kira's own mental weakness to focus and prioritize his targets then you made a valid excuse for his failure in 34. Good pilots would know to focus on one thing at a time, and deal with that one target first, and not try and accomplish every task at once. That does more to show Kira's immaturity as a pilot then this incredible skill you seem to be making up off the top of your head based on a mind-numbing devotion to a pretty much souless avatar.

Fair fight, no.

It's war. All's fair in love and war. Bitching because Shinn did something unique to help him beat Kira is hardly a valid excuse, but I bet you'd pull the same card if Rau had finished Kira off in Providence, instead of taunting him. Let me guess would your reasoning be, " Rau had DRAGOON's it was cheating!" Perhaps growing up, and understanding nothing in life is fair would be a good start. Not being on equal terms is hardly a valid excuse for Kira's failure.

Why?? Shinn has to go through simulations and again be helped out (by Rey) to get his winning strategy.

Rey told Shinn his simulations were off because Kira never shot at the cockpit of an MS. That's not actually condusive to Shinn having only won because of Rey's help and again, making horrible excuses doesn't make Kira look better, it makes Kira look like a child who needs to be babied in order to be sucessful. If you wanted to show how awesome Kira was you picked an interesting method to do it.

Make excuses about things being unfair, ignoring that Kira has amubhsed and shot down MS from BEHIND with NO WARNING. >.> Apparently it's ok when Kira is shooting people in the back, it's fair then when the grunt kills go in his favor. But when Shinn hands Kira his ass, it's cheating. Doubel standards and crying =/= proof of Kira being good.

I wonder how insanely accurate 7 beams that can only shoot straight (Not curve) are in space taking out at least 20 Gundams who aren't just lined up, but scattered arcoss space.

>.> We've seen beams curve and arc all the time. Hell, every beam in CE has been shown making soft arcs. It's the direct angle changes that are impossible. It's nice you pay no attention to the animation either. And they're not called Gundam's. They're called Mobile Suits. A Gundam is a Mobile Suit, but not every Mobile Suit is a Gundam. You don't even know the termjs needed for this debate but you want to have a valid discussion about Kira's skills? What?

I'm sorry, but I don't recall the episode on which they say Kira programs his machine to avoid the cockpit.

Well, that's fine. :D I HAVE THE EPISODE LIST PLUS SUMMARIES AND A LINK WAS POSTED BACK ON PAGE 14! :D SO HERE WE GO!

Quote:
if its ok i would like to see a link showing where it says he uses the auto system instead of using it manually.

=/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heaKVUH5V-c&feature=related
1:17=1:29. Kira's exact words at this point, " Contact pressure is increased, I have to take that into account. Estimate reduction in pressure. For friction coefficient sync granularity of the sand to minus 20"

Eileen when refering to applying a control program during battle is refering to Kira adding a program to control Strike's weight displacement. It has nothing to do with changing how the Strike Reacts to pilot input. It changes how the Strike displaces it's weight so it doesn't sink into or slide over the sand.

http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/seed/seedtoc.htm

A list of full episode summaries is provided in the above link. The episode in question is 17, and the episode posted is the clip show episode 27 Endless Rondo, which covers the events of the first half of SEED.

The idea of applying a control program was to allow the strike to auotmatically calculate for the density of the Sand, so Kira wouldn't have to change how he was piloting Strike, which seemed to be running around like a Chicken with it's head cut off and firing blindly at much more agile mobile suits. While it's certianly an impressive feat of programming it's not an impressive feat of piloting which is what you're supposed to be trying to prove! :D

I do remember Andrew Walts saying that he can't avoid killing the other pilots as well as Kira. I don't think it is because he can't program his machine to avoid cockpits, but this is rather a skill.

Freedom automatically targets limbs because we see in Freedom's first apparence the mutli-lock targeting globe acquiring targets and then Kira with no aditional imput pressing his switch and firing. That would indicate nothing about Kira's limb shooting is anything close to manual.


You save some lives, you lose some. If they can't survive (Eject Cockpit and get close to their fleet and throw some flares) then they deserve to die. You make it seem that Kira's foes don't have fleets and retreat their fallen soldiers.

How can they retreat when Kira shoots off their thrusters used for flight while they're in Midair, and can only land in the middle of the ocean pray tell? >.> Do you intentionally try and come off as not only hippocritical but horribly miss-informed or was this all just some humorous accident?


I would be mad/sad and etc if my parents died right in front of my eyes and I was just a kids/teen, but 2 years to recover. I think I would be able to accept it and move on with my life.

>.> Someone is beign a horrible optimist, but that aside Shinn has moved on with his life. Wanting to prevent others from experiencing the same tragedy youy did does not make Shinn obsessed with the past or unable to get over the trama of his families death.

Also, whats up with the whole cell phone thing. You listen to your dead sisters voice-mail just to hear her voice. I don't know about you but that seems a bit strange.

Actually not too long ago there was a story of a man who listened to his wife's voice mail on her phone everyday to give him hope, until her Cell phone company updated and the message was lost. If Newtype still has the link he'll likely post it. But wanting to hear the sound of a dead loved ones voice is hardly unsual. Especially after sometime has past and the exact tone and pitched has faded a bit in our minds. I personally which I could listen to a recording left by my uncle after he died, but no such luck.

Doesn't matter if he has a grudge, he should have that attitude in check/control himself.

He does control himself, it's not until the very last episode that Shinn's anger normally something he's very incontrol of and makes him a better pilot causes him to go berserk, but by then the writing had broken down so horribly, that the fate of Shinn was hardly the worst thing about Destiny's ending.

He is a soldier who is suppose learn respect and classes. President>>>>>>>>>Some Pilot. Again, get that attitude/rage in check and show some respect.

He has to follow orders, he doesn't necessarily have to like or respect who's issueing said orders. Especially when said person is a horrendously arrogant ass most of the time. Though to Shinn's credit he does a very good juob of not letting his personal feelings interfer with his piloting at all.


Punishment would have been nice.

Grunts, that dodge, Lacus and Kira zactually having development, and real proof Durandal was the evil genius Lacus made him out to be would have been nice too but none of that was in Destiny either.

I would hate the person who killed someone who was like my little sister if they had no reason/senseless kill. Which in this case, was not.

Ok, I'm curious, what was Kira's reason for dodging and taking his fight with the druggies over a civilian evacuation zone then? >.>



Stella doesn't have control of her actions, so why would she stop rampaging for her beloved Shinn when she is being controlled/brainwashed??

Because she remembers Shinn and her feelings for him which weren't completely erased even with the memory erasing. Blame the EA scientists for not being thorough with their jobs but pray-tell what does any of this have to with Kira being a good pilot? Did you just randomly decide to spout off more innane crap as if stating your reason's for not liking Shinn make your replies more valid?

Watch episode 34. Does Shinn win fairly?? Watch episodes 42-43. Who [would have] won that?? Shinn was bailed out by Rey.

>.> Umm I hate to break it to you but after Kira strips Shinn of every melee weapon he has Shinn goes SEED mode and Kira can't press home any advantage what so-ever. In fact it's not until Shinn for some unknown reason leaves SEED mode that he's even put in a position of vulnerability. The fact it took that long for Kira to get an opening when Shinn had NO MELEE WEAPONS ASIDE FROM DESTINY FINGER IS NOT GOOD PILOTING. I'll say again, Kira failing miserably to exploit any advantage he's given doesn't qualify as skill. If you're going to pick moments to prove Kira is good, maybe one where Shinn isn't nerfed by losing SEED mode to create Kira's only opening would be a better choice?

Um, no. Being the ultimate coordinator means that Kira can do things above what a coordinator can do (which is already amazing).

And your proof is? It's stated right in the show. Kira is the ultimate Coordinator because he came out exactly like he was supposed to. Hell Rau spells out the entire reason for the project was create the perfect designer baby. Which is what Kira is. Consigently this is also tghe reason the UC project was discontinued because humans in the CE universe would throw away their failed children if they heard about the UC project. Though coordinator children who came out imperfect were already being discarded by thier parents so one has to wonder what it would actually change.

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/glossary_misc.html#ultimate
Ultimate Coordinator The final goal of the genetic engineers who created the Coordinators. Although Coordinators are mentally and physically superior to ordinary humans, their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator, whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Of the countless embryos which Hibiki used as test subjects for this artificial womb, his son Kira Yamato is believed to be the only survivor.

According to Gundam official, the UC Project is exactly what I outlined in simple terms. It's making Kira turn out EXACTLY like he was supposed to, without the defects inherent in some Coordinators. Like coming out with blue eyes instead of green, or black hair instead of blond, or lacking the immunities of a coordinator, or the brain power, or the physical attributes. defects in children raised in the mothers womb ran the gambit, though there were some coordinator children born exactly as they were supposed to be Yzak is one that instantly comes to mind a way to make results like Yzak the norm was deviced by Hibiki.

One advantage of this on the battlefield?? Kira being a complete noob in the Strike (first few episodes) and still defeating a ZAFT graduate.

>.> He beat Miguel because Miguel was in a GiNN that had no weapons which could damage Strike aside from a cumbersome Ion Canon, which was too large to be used effectively against the more mobile Strike Gundam. Kira won because of Strike's technical edge not because he was a good pilot.

Then, he learns to fight more and more to the point that he doesn't even have to kill his opponents, simply disable. Oh yeah, lets not forget the adapting skill.

>.> What are you talking about? Kira never gets to that point in Strike, in fact right up until Athrun takes him out Kira is killing people left and right. And it's not until Kira gets Freedom, a mecha that lets him multi-lock and beam spam that he can actually disable grunts without killing them. Though as we've illustrated he likely still hasn't stopped killing people he's just being overly naive about the situation.

[alexxb]

Instead of debating about this, I will only say this. In an all-out fight (In Space) , Shinn would lose, fact. I would love to hear how Shinn would win that.

How did this topic get turned into Kira Vs. Shinn?? I just came to last page and just saw this huge hate on Kira.

[Red Zaku]

Instead of debating about this, I will only say this. In an all-out fight (In Space) , Shinn would lose, fact. I would love to hear how Shinn would win that.

And you're basing that on what? Your vast knowledge of Gundam and Shinn which you couldn't even adequitely display only one post ago?

How did this topic get turned into Kira Vs. Shinn?? I just came to last page and just saw this huge hate on Kira.

You turned it into Shinn vs. Kira. I used episode 34 to show how well Kira fights when he goes up against someone of similar skill who's not going easy on him, and Kira get's routed. Needless to say in a fight against Heero, Kira is in even deeper trouble then his tussles with Shinn. And Kira get's hate for his pilot skills because HE'S NOT THAT GOOD OF A PILOT! The only times Kira has ever come close to beating someone who wasn't intentionally nerfed was Rau. That's it. He beat Rau, who was never a very good pilot to begin with. when he faces people of comperable skill Kira get's tossed around more then a pin ball, and it's depressing that people actually consider this good piloting.

[alexxb]

Kira's finest was against Athrun in Seed. When they were fighting to kill each other. Most people say that he lost that fight. I don't see how seeing as he survived and made athrun resort self-destructing. I don't think self-destructing = win. In fact, I consider that a lose, as it is only used when you can no longer fight/lost.

Anyways, I just need to know this. Do you believe that Shinn would beat Kira in an all out fight?? I mean them at their finest.

Kira Seed Mode out for the Kill Vs. Shinn Seed Mode Regular Piloting (as he always attempts to kill his opponents, especially Kira). You add a few more things, Stella died in Shinn's hands. Lets say Lacus dies in Kira's hands. I would love to see that fight, would remind me so much of Kira Vs. Athrun, just that this time Kira has Freedom. (Also, this would be Strike Freedom and Destiny of course, since those are there best units.)

[Red Zaku]

Kira's finest was against Athrun in Seed.

That's depressing since from the start of the series, until Kira kills Nicol Athrun ADMITS TO GOING EASY ON KIRA! >.> So your proof Kira is this uber awesome pilot is that Athrun, goes easy on him because he wants to get his best friend to join ZAFT? That's not very good evidence. See, maybe a bit more knowledge of SEED would be better then what you think you remember, plus a bit of over zealous fanboyism thrown in?


When they were fighting to kill each other.

Kira loses. Again. Quite literally he should have been dead, it's the second worst plot hole in the first series.

Most people say that he lost that fight.

Athrun walked away. Kira had to be saved by Lowe Gear, taken to Revend Malchio, and he still was wearing bnadages when he gets shipped to ZAFT Territory and meets Lacus, thoug he should have been dead thanks to the anime showing a rather large gaping hole burned into the middle of the pilots seat. Apparently the explosion was enough to roast a hole through the chair but not Kira's body. >.> If it wasn't for main character shielding he's dead, and even with it, he walks away with the worst of that fight.

I don't see how seeing as he survived and made athrun resort self-destructing.

Let's see, he almost dies..... I guess nearly dieing is a moral victory since you didn't actually die, but Kira got tossed around pretty badly before Athrun even decided to blow Justice up.

I don't think self-destructing = win. In fact, I consider that a lose, as it is only used when you can no longer fight/lost.

....So wait, let me just try to understand this. Kira won because Athrun blew his own mobile suit and Kira had no hand in beating Saviour? The best you could call it was a draw......Athrun walks away from that fight without a scratch, Kira is nearly dead. That's a loss. Generally the winners get to walk away. Athrun did, Kira most certianly didn't.

Anyways, I just need to know this. Do you believe that Shinn would beat Kira in an all out fight?? I mean them at their finest.

If Shinn doesn't mysteriously lose SEED mode, or go berserk with rage which is against his character development from the past 49 episodes then Shinn could wipe the floor with Kira. 34 wasn't a fluke.

Kira Seed Mode out for the Kill Vs. Shinn Seed Mode Regular Piloting (as he always attempts to kill his opponents, especially Kira).

Wait, so you're now trying to NERF Shinn because you think I'd say Kira? Kira out to kill and in SEED mode, only survives his blind berserk charge towards Rau, because the man can't aim his DRAGOON's to save his life. >.> That is not a problem with Shinn.

You add a few more things, Stella died in Shinn's hands. Lets say Lacus dies in Kira's hands.

.......Your logic is horrible. Your pointless what if's don't gaurentee Kira wins at all...

I would love to see that fight, would remind me so much of Kira Vs. Athrun, just that this time Kira has Freedom. (Also, this would be Strike Freedom and Destiny of course, since those are there best units.)

=/ Oi..... Your logic is god awful, it actually hurts my brain to try and comprehend your baseless faith in Kira's abilties. Your whole arguement for Kira winning vs. Athrun was because Athrun beat himself by blowing up his own MS......

[Demon_Sargeras]

Freedom due to timeline and just having more evolved mechanism

[Biolink]

Freedom due to timeline and just having more evolved mechanism

Not in the same timeline/universe.

Dare I say not even close technologically to Wing Zero.

Let's see.

Wing Zero has better Armor
Equal Power source(Since they are both unlimited)
Faster than Freedom
It's Wings give it 360 degrees of thrust at all times. Imagine Freedom's Hi-Mat except pretty much never ending
Doesn't have as many weapons as Freedom, but the one(Technically two if you split them up) powerful rifle that it does have rapes any of Freedom's weapons free.
Has the Zero System

Freedom is only better at being worse than Wing Zero. I honestly have not seen a positive for it yet over Wing Zero, unless you want to count having a lot of weapons as an advantage

[alexxb]

Athrun doesn't walk away without a scratch, because as I recall. Athrun was found on the shore beaten up and when he came to he was in bandages being question by Cagalli. I think he broke his arm, right??

I LMAO when you said going berserk with rage is against Shinns character. Everytime he fights Kira (and Athrun) he gets angry (like when Kira shot him with his to side guns (on Freedoms waist) and he comments on it would be over if those were beams, is that what you are trying to say Kira, and then gets mad). Shinn only gets his Seed due to his rage.

Of course .34 wasn't a fluke. Shinn won that, no doubt. I am simply saying he didn't beat a killing Kira. Yes, Kira loss was brought on him by his own doing, we all know this already (could have fought better, focused, go for the kill, etc). But, if you take those disadvantages he gives his opponents/Shinn, and he gets serious (as in killing) Shinn would die. Also, since you want to mention .34, Kira got the first hit when he sliced off Shinn's [Impulse] head which could have easily been his chest/cockpit. That makes me (you) think, wow, if Kira was going for the kill that would be it for Shinn.

The .34 thing I mentioned above is not a what if. It is a what would have happened [if Kira wanted kill Shinn].

Why would I think you would say Kira?? You obviously hate the guy and love Shinn for beating him. I just wanted to see how you would have justified you choice which did poorly.

Athrun didn't beat himself. He blew up his Aegis, there is a reason for that.

Also, I think you should get your Gundams straight. Athrun blew up the Aegis not justice. Also, Justice (inlcuding Infinite) never fought Kira. Also, Saviour is the suit he uses in Desinty which Kira slices up like a a piece of meat.

[NewtypeS3]

Oh course it is skill to program you Gundam to adapt to the current conditions, especially the ones he was in. How is adjusting your Gundam to fight a better not a skill??
It's a skill in programming computers, not piloting a mobile suit.
Programming a computer takes intelligence - while piloting a mobile suit or jet takes fast reflexes, quick thinking, intelligence, high physical tolerances for g-forces and more things than I can begin to think about.

There's a big difference.

Why do people still question Kira's ability as a pilot, you don't become commander (in ZAFT) for fighting horrible.
...except for the fact that Kira only became a white-coat in ZAFT after Lacus took command of ZAFT. Kira never once joined ZAFT, never once sided with them in combat and so forth. In fact, the only assumption we can be given is that Kira wound up being given that position from Lacus herself, much like his position in the Orb military was given to him by Cagali.
You can be an awesome foot soldier in the army, for example, but unless you actually show more skills than 'shooting things good,' you'll probably never make it beyond Captain. Similarly, Yzak actually showed good commanding skills - yet Kira somehow now outranks him in two out of the three world militaries out there (remember, Kira's only an ensign in the EA...).

What do you expect Kira to do adapt other than adjusting his mobile suit??
Become a better pilot by improving his own skill. Before Gundam Seed (or, rather, before Kira), every single pilot in Gundam had to improve their piloting skills by becoming better at what they weren't good at.

For example, Gundam X shows Garrod Ran (and, indeed, the other two pilots working alongside him: Witz and Roybea) undergoing heavy training in order to try and shoot down or avoid the funnels of the enemy unit Bertigo. They actually begin improving in their skill, but they still wind up in a no-win solution each time. Garrod also winds up observing Jamil Neate (an ace pilot from the previous war) taking down the funnels with ease, and finally realizes that the funnels can be shot down like any other mobile suit - it just takes a steady aim.
In this same story arc, Garrod also has to get used to fighting on snow with a special booster unit, the Divider Harmonica. Within 5 minutes, Garrod has figured out how to not only use the unit, but excel on snow and force two of the biggest enemies to retreat.
And, of course, there's when Garrod Ran has to get used to piloting the Gundam Double X and take out 17 enemy units... with only a pair of beam sabers to get the job done.
Or when Garrod has to get used to space combat... on his own... with no backup whatsoever... stranded in space... surrounded by the enemy... and actually improves to the point where he's a threat to even the enemy ace in a matter of minutes.

And what about Gundam, where Amuro Ray has to improve as a pilot, because trying to improve the performance of the Gundam with pre-programable piloting data proves to utterly screw Amuro over in combat?
Or ZZ, where Judau goes from 'a no-nothing who can't even close the cockpit door' to 'the only hope for the Earth Sphere' during the series?
Or what about Gundm Wing, where Heero Yuy can adapt to literally any mobile suit he pilots - be it a lowly Leo or the dreaded Wing Zero?
Or Turn-A Gundam where Loran Ceahk pilots the titular unit and kills no one throughout the entire series, despite piloting his all - instead focusing his energies on being an efficient pilot than a flashy one.
Or Seed Destiny, where Shin actually shows improvements as a pilot in tough situations (even having enough control over his MS to move parts of it to dodge Kira's beams, rather than the whole suit) rather than re-program his operating system?

Reprogramming your operating system is unique to Kira... but it's not a hallmark of skill at all. In fact, he's pretty much one of the few Gundam mains who've never done an ounce of maintanence on the unit itself...

Call out a new weapon, ask for help?? Oh sorry, this isn't Shinn.
...actually, when Kira was in the Strike, he switched out packs quite often in mid-combat.
The first example was all the way back in the first 5 episodes, when the Archangel literally hurled out the Launcher Pack to Kira - where he combined with the unit and no longer had a power problem, which forced the enemy to retreat completely.
Later examples include Kira and Mu working out a system quick enough so they could transfer pack units from the Skygrasper to the Strike just by dropping them... and it worked.

And since when is asking for help a bad thing? Kira had to get help from Mu and Athrun dozens of times in Seed - otherwise Kira wouldn't be around for Destiny.

Kira doesn't have suck luxuries.
...the Freedom isn't a luxury, despite being outfitted with an NJC and still more than capable of tearing apart modern mobile suits that actually have more advanced weaponry? Hell, Kira has more wepons than most reasonable gunships - though a note should be made that the Impulse's weaponry is labled as more advanced than the Freedom's, meaning they're stronger for less energy.
That said, it's hard to believe Kira doesn't have a luxury, just because of what he's piloting.

Kira dodges vaguely (LoL) and his opponent misses, is that his fault because I consider that (Dodging ability) a great skill that he can continue to use while fighting.
It's certainly a great skill in the Cosmic Era, where it's been shown that few people know how to actually make use of that skill.
In other universes, though, as Red has pointed out... dodging at the last-second is quite the hallmark of skill. Kira, on the other hand, seems to be unable to dodge that closely - often either dodging long before the beam comes near him, blocking it with his shield or, more often than not, tanking the damage. This comes especially true in the Athrun, Rau and Shin fights, where Kira takes damage that almost any other Gundam main could actually dodge away from.

In fact, here's a good example of skill, orignally noted by Red himself. Gundam F91 shows off the bizarre mobile weapon 'Bug,' and how deadly they are. The scenes can be found here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBXObf4VQOg (from 2 minutes in, onward)
In this sequence, we see that the Bugs have little problem moving into melee range... and yet even a lowly semi-grunt like Birgid can manuver at least his shield in front of their attacks, or at least his beam saber. Certainly, the guy goes out eventually... but if this sort of skill is relatively commonplace for Gundam mains (ie: Seabook Arno, pilot of the F91), what does this say for Kira?

Trying to kill him?? This is war, everyone is trying to kill their opponent (well except Kira, seeing as he as the ability not kill during a battle and choose to use it).
Then Kira is, quite honestly, a moron.
As was Athrun, who wasn't trying to kill Kira during the first 29 episodes of Seed.

Again, Kira not having a challenge is not his fault. He gives them a handicap and they still can't beat him.
...giving someone a handicap of 50 points in bowling doesn't exactly help when, oh, they can't bowl for crap in the first place.

He is a great pilot. Re-watch Episode 34, does it even look like Kira was trying to fight??
I don't know what version of Destiny you were watching, but... yeah, Kira was honestly doing his best to defend the Archangel from the Minerva and Impulse.
It's not Shin's fault that Kira decided to retreat to an optimal shooting distance by flying backwards.

He was distracted like 3 times in that battle.
...which speaks against Kira's ability to concentrate in a battle, not for making the fight 'unfair.'

Fair fight, no. Why?? Shinn has to go through simulations and again be helped out (by Rey) to get his winning strategy.
...so it's unfair that Shin went over home movies with a friend and both made observations on Kira's fighting style that were blatantly obvious and then tested it all out in simulations...
...because Kira didn't bother to practice or train or even adapt his fighting style at all?

Isn't that Kira's fault because he was too busy pissing off all the other governments of the world to bother improving as a pilot?


I would be mad/sad and etc if my parents died right in front of my eyes and I was just a kids/teen, but 2 years to recover. I think I would be able to accept it and move on with my life.
One of my closer friends killed himself three years ago, and I'm still not over it. Seeing one of the AMVs he made still bring tears to my eyes, remembering him still hurts a little inside. Close friends don't tend to have nearly the impact of your entire family dying at once, seeing their bloodied remains and being forcefully dragged away from the site so you won't die as well - something that tends to sound infinitely more mentally scarring than a simple phone call at 3am to let you know that a friend whose wedding you were a part of, Ken, had just taken a pistol into his mouth and pulled the trigger.
I may be moving on with my life, much like Shin, but I'm far from fully 'over it.'

Also, whats up with the whole cell phone thing. You listen to your dead sisters voice-mail just to hear her voice. I don't know about you but that seems a bit strange.
Hey, I still keep Ken's AMVs around just to keep reminding myself of why I'm becoming a teacher - not only do I love teaching, but I want to make sure that kids will avoid taking the stupid way out of life. I still keep an old pocketwatch chain around my arm as a makeshift piece of jewlery to remind myself of my grandfather and all he did for me.
People keep old home movies around, not to mention family photo albums.

And, as Red mentioned, there was the case of the old widower who would listen to the old voice-mail of his wife every morning. For proof, here's the link to that news story:
http://gizmodo.com/377993/verizon-restores-voicemail-of-mans-deceased-wife-in-a-story-that-is-touchingly-creepy

So, no, it's not strange.
In fact, it's far from it.

Um, no. Being the ultimate coordinator means that Kira can do things above what a coordinator can do (which is already amazing). One advantage of this on the battlefield?? Kira being a complete noob in the Strike (first few episodes) and still defeating a ZAFT graduate. Then, he learns to fight more and more to the point that he doesn't even have to kill his opponents, simply disable. Oh yeah, lets not forget the adapting skill.
Oh, really? Well, shall we see what Bandai says to your so-called definition?

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/glossary_misc.html#ultimate
Ultimate Coordinator
The final goal of the genetic engineers who created the Coordinators. Although Coordinators are mentally and physically superior to ordinary humans, their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator, whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Of the countless embryos which Hibiki used as test subjects for this artificial womb, his son Kira Yamato is believed to be the only survivor.
That's the entire definition of the term 'Ultimate Coordinator:' a child whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Nothing about your claims is located anywhere on the official website.
Whoops!

----------------------------------------

Instead of debating about this, I will only say this. In an all-out fight (In Space) , Shinn would lose, fact. I would love to hear how Shinn would win that.
...the fact that Kira couldn't once beat Shin in Destiny at all, in fact only once coming to a 'draw,' says that Shin probably would have won.
My question, though, is how Shin wound up getting drawn into this in the first place.

How did this topic get turned into Kira Vs. Shinn?? I just came to last page and just saw this huge hate on Kira.
...so you decided to completely ignore the topic and tried to make it into another entirely different topic that has nothing to do with... anything in this topic?
Alexxb, that's utterly horrible logic. I think you just made Galileo, Plato, Aristotle and even Mr. Spock cry.

--------------------------------

Kira's finest was against Athrun in Seed. When they were fighting to kill each other.
...a single still-image fight from episode 29 is Kira's best level of skill?
Then it really makes me wonder how that pertains to Kira's skill-levels while he's in Freedom, episodes down the line and in what you yourself even admit to be a 'lower skill level'.
Especially when this was Athrun's one time of actually trying against Kira... and defeating him soundly.

Most people say that he lost that fight. I don't see how seeing as he survived and made athrun resort self-destructing. I don't think self-destructing = win. In fact, I consider that a lose, as it is only used when you can no longer fight/lost.
Athrun won the fight in a pyrrhic victory (a victory with a devestating loss to the winner, a term coined after King Pyrrhus of Epirus), where he lost his mobile suit... but was still able to escape in one piece while Kira himself wound up nearly dead and had to be saved via plotholes and taken 'immediately' to medical help.
Athrun might have lost his mobile suit, but the fact that he was still walking around on his own and breathing? He won the fight hands-down.

Anyways, I just need to know this. Do you believe that Shinn would beat Kira in an all out fight?? I mean them at their finest.
Long story short, yes.

Shin has all the weaponry of the Impulse, only stronger. He now has more manuverability, which combined with his piloting technique of 'moving the part a slight amount to dodge Kira's disabling blasts' make him even more deadly to Kira than ever before.
Kira certainly has more weaponry in the S-Freedom... but only in space. On the Earth, he's without the Wings of Light and DRAGOONs. In Space, he's finally at 100%... yet we saw that Shin's got enough talent to completely confuse and disable Kira's entire fighting style.

Especially when we take into account that Kira actually pretty much sucks at melee, something Shin excels at. Even new-at-piloting-mobile-suits-Mu-la-Flaga was able to out-melee Kira in his first time piloting the Strike, according to the director himself.

So yes, Shin would win.
Now can we please get back to the original topic, for Christ's sake?

[Biolink]

That's a lot of information to go over. One can excuse such a typo as accidentally calling it Justice when he meant Aegis.

That's not nearly as critical of an error as saying Kira took out 20 GUNDAMS

[alexxb]

That's a lot of information to go over. One can excuse such a typo as accidentally calling it Justice when he meant Aegis.

That's not nearly as critical of an error as saying Kira took out 20 GUNDAMS

Kinda sad that he made the mistake twice with two different names that were both wrong.

[NewtypeS3]

...which has very little bearing on the fact that you're avoiding the subject of even replying at this point...

[alexxb]

....and that is??

[alexxb]

I have my opinion of things you all have yours. So, yes. Lets end this Kira Vs. Shinn thing.

[Red Zaku]

I have my opinion of things you all have yours. So, yes. Lets end this Kira Vs. Shinn thing.


An opinion you poorly tried to assert as fact, and backed it up with even worse examples.

[alexxb]

....*Sigh* and so it continues.

[alexxb]

An opinion you poorly tried to assert as fact, and backed it up with even worse examples.

Just gonna say this again, Kira cut off Impulse's head, lower that beam sabre down, and shinn = dead.

[NewtypeS3]

Just gonna say this again, Kira cut off Impulse's head, lower that beam sabre down, and shinn = dead.
...ok, sure, but Kira didn't lower that beam saber down.
Thus, Shin didn't die.
Thus, Kira lost the fight.

Dealing with might-have-beens and what-could-be don't help when it's pretty blatant what happened.

[Red Zaku]

Just gonna say this again, Kira cut off Impulse's head, lower that beam sabre down, and shinn = dead.


And if Shinn draws the beam saber with his remaining arm he jams it through the side of Freedom's chest, and the whole thing blows up before Kira has time to shut off the nuclear fission reactor. >.> SEE I CAN PLAY THAT GAME TOO! :D

[alexxb]

That is a not a what-if. You seem to deny that fact. Anyways, I am done arguing with you. With what I said above (kira and impulses head thing) just proves that Shinn die against a killing Kira. End of Kira Vs. Shinn.

[NewtypeS3]

...which is fantastic, because it means that we can finally get back to the real topic at hand.
Espeically considering you had no actual evidence to stand on in the first place.

[alexxb]

That Kira couldn't slice of his chest/cockpit instead or that he never had cut off his head??

Anyways, here is the video. Skip to 1.06-1.10.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=L6rsjjcFi-s

I see an opening.

[Red Zaku]

That Kira couldn't slice of his chest/cockpit instead or that he never had cut off his head??

If you're stupid enough to think Shinn would have fought Kira the same if Kira was going for kill shots, you really have aboslutely no place on a topic dealing exclusively with logic.

[alexxb]

I thought we weren't doing what-ifs. I could easily say, what if Shinn fights Kira as he does in .34 but Kira think he must die so slice, Shinn is dead. (See the footage above). Also, if Kira doesn't care about killing or not killing then Shinn would have died during their first encounter. Seriously, the only reason why Kira isn't completely overpowered is because he chooses not kill.

[Red Zaku]

I thought we weren't doing what-ifs.

We're not, and even if we were it's the wrong topic for them. Stop being an ass and try to get the last word. You already failed miserably to make your point about Kira > Heero, if you want to fail to make your point that Shinn < Kira then make a topic and do it there.

I could easily say, what if Shinn fights Kira as he does in .34 but Kira think he must die so slice, Shinn is dead.

Which is a what-if in the truest sense of the word. Kira could have done a number of things in that situation the fact is you pointing out one of the things he could have done, doesn't suddenly make it a valid reply in any form of logic.

(See the footage above).

The above footage which shows Kira not doing what you say he could.... brilliant....

Also, if Kira doesn't care about killing or not killing then Shinn would have died during their first encounter.

>.> How do you figure? Shinn was the main character during their first encounter. He would have miracle dodged, your logic doesn't get better, the more you post though that is for sure.


Seriously, the only reason why Kira isn't completely overpowered is because he chooses not kill.


And because he can't adapt during a fight, he can't prioratize targets, he can't adapt to changing conditions, and oh yeah he needs computer to aim for him. >.> The only reason why Kira is so overpowered is because he's got a mecha capable of beam spam, and he can use it against vast armies of grunts which can't dodge.

[alexxb]

Ok, Reddy, you win. Shinn>Kira. Happy now??

[reaperunique]

No way Kira ownz Shinn it's just a fact, it is what sunrise wants and if you don't agree with me go to JP and say it to them not me :)

Same with this Kira vs Heero thing, if Sunrise makes a battle where the two of them would meet sunrise will decide who will win, it's an anime! It doesn't have to make sence so you shouldn't look for stupid battles like this, it can be fun but if I read these last posts you guy's are starting to get annoyed, so just stop.

[Cloud]

Freedom would win seeing as to how he has 100x more lasers than wing. On top of that, wing zero sometimes gets damaged when he fires it's dual gun thing.

[Biolink]

Freedom would win seeing as to how he has 100x more lasers than wing. On top of that, wing zero sometimes gets damaged when he fires it's dual gun thing.

Alvatorre was one of the biggest spammers I can remember in recent history.

Didn't stop Setsuna from tearing it to shreds.

Having a lot of weapons mean very little, when Freedom would hardly be able to even catch up to Wing Zero. Spec wise it won't be able to catch up to Wing Zero, and combined with the Zero System calculating Freedom's next movements it will be damn near impossible to hit

Compounded by the fact that the deadly weapon Wing Zero does have can be separated into two separate rifles that power wise by themselves can lol any weapon that Freedom has.

How many times did Wing Zero actually injure itself firing the Twin Buster Rifle? Twice at most, the one time I can vividly remember when Wing Zero was falling through the atmosphere. You know where it gets REALLY hot?

Maybe it can injure itself, I don't exactly remember everything despite having watched it just last year, but if it could injure itself I can almost guarantee that for something like that to happen it would require Wing Zero to fire consecutive powerful shots, which won't be necessary at all for this fight.

[NewtypeS3]

No way Kira ownz Shinn it's just a fact, it is what sunrise wants and if you don't agree with me go to JP and say it to them not me :)
...care to explain why KIRA LOST TO SHIN IN THEIR ONLY DECISIVE BATTLE, then? I mean, we've got in-series evidence for the following skill levels:
Shin > Kira
Kira > Athrun
Athrun > Shin
Kira > Rey
Shin > Rey
Sure, because Athrun beat Shin and Kira beat Athrun, you could make an argument for Kira > Shin... until you realize that in their only decisive battle, Kira lost to Shin badly. Thus, Kira can't actually be better than Shin.

Until you have actual proof for... anything, I can't help but observe that Sunrise actually avoided this subject completely for Destiny.

Same with this Kira vs Heero thing, if Sunrise makes a battle where the two of them would meet sunrise will decide who will win, it's an anime! It doesn't have to make sence so you shouldn't look for stupid battles like this, it can be fun but if I read these last posts you guy's are starting to get annoyed, so just stop.
Actually, the only one annoying us would be Alexxb, because he diverted this topic into completely off-topic territory. That, and we're annoyed with people blindly claiming '____>_____' on bias without even thinking about actual evidence to back it up.

-------------------------------

Freedom would win seeing as to how he has 100x more lasers than wing.
...you really don't actually know science and math, do you? Let's see what the Freedom has for weapons, shall we?
2 x MA-M01 "Lacerta" beam saber, stored on hips
2 x MMI-GAU2 "Picus" 76mm CIWS, fire-linked, mounted on head
2 x M100 "Balaena" plasma beam cannon, stored in wings
2 x MMI-M15 "Xiphias" rail cannon, folded underneath hips
MA-M20 "Lupus" beam rifle
So, that's 9 different weapons, only 7 of which can actually be used at once... and only 5 of those are actually useful in shooting (head vulcans in Gundam are honestly just for show these days). Now, what does Wing Zero have...?
2 x machine cannon, fire-linked, mounted on torso
2 x wing vulcan gun, fire-linked, mounted in wing binders
2 x beam saber, stored in recharge racks in shoulders
Shield with "piledriver" nose
Twin Buster Rifle, can be separated into two separate single-barrel buster rifles
So, this makes 9 different weapons as well for Wing Zero (Piledriver is actually a weapon, albeit underused - and I'm counting the TBR as two, because it can be split in half)! Now, the Wing Vulcans can't really be used... and the machine cannons are kinda useless, but they're no more useless than the railguns on the Freedom in all honesty.

So, wait! Wing Zero and the Freedom have the exact same number of weapons! It looks like your '100x' math is completely and utterly horrible, because they're exactly the same in number!
And how many of those weapons on the Freedom are the 'lasers' you claim they are? Round about... three. The beam rifle and the two Baleenas on the wings - because beam sabers are something entirely different. Meanwhile, Wing Zero has two TBR halves... which makes it 1.5 times the 'lasers' of the Wing Zero, not 100.

Sounds like you need to go back and re-learn simple mathematics, kid.


On top of that, wing zero sometimes gets damaged when he fires it's dual gun thing.
...except it doesn't. The only two times the Wing Zero was damaged at all when the TBR was fired were the two following events:
----When the Wing Zero was diving backwards into the atmosphere, enduring massive friction and damage from the re-entry process while it tried to get a lock on the massive chunk of Liebra... not damaged by firing the TBR.
----When the Wing Zero was trying to break open the thick bunker in Endless Waltz, where it was already heavily damaged from a mostly-unprotected re-entry process, a fight with Wufei where Heero wasn't even trying to defend himself, crashing into the ocean at the end of the re-entry process, and then finally taking damage from sporatic pot-shots from Serpent MS as Heero overcharged the Twin Buster Rifle for the damaged state it was in and then the Twin Buster Rifle exploded, the resulting damage critically damaging the Wing Zero.

So please, come back when you know what you're actually blathering on about, because this isn't helping Kira's side of the argumnet at all.

[Cloud]

Newtype: You are too serious and nerd raging. :rofl

[NewtypeS3]

Oh, that wasn't even 'nerd rage.' That was the teacher inside me being slightly ticked at your complete disreguard for simple mathematics, not to mention the complete and utter lack of debating ability you've just shown.

Like I said before, please come back with some semblence of knowledge about what you're blathering on for - because it's not helping Kira at all when you make vague claims without backing things up.

[Hidden leaf]

Freedom is faster and Kira is as said before the ultimate Coordinator because of that fact he will be faster in reflexis

[alexxb]

Well if we are to use Red Zaku's (Athrun beats Kira at his finest) and NewtypeS3's (his chart thing above) logic then Athrun would be the strongest character which I can easily accept. Shin beats Kira, Athrun beats Shinn. Athrun beats Kira at his finest.

So basically, Athrun Zala > Others

[Red Zaku]

Freedom is faster and Kira is as said before the ultimate Coordinator because of that fact he will be faster in reflexis


We've proved Freedom isn't faster, and it means nothing to be the Ultimate cooradinator. See every page since 12 for details. This is why READING the topic helps.

[alexxb]

If anyone beliefs being an Ultimate Coordinator means absolutely nothing then you are an idiot. See Gundam Seed if you need to know why, everything Kira can do is because he is an ultimate coordinator.

[Red Zaku]

If anyone beliefs being an Ultimate Coordinator means absolutely nothing then you are an idiot. See Gundam Seed if you need to know why, everything Kira can do is because he is an ultimate coordinator.

We posted the definition of the Ultimate Coordinator from GUNDAMOFFICIAL.COM! >.> You know the official site for Gundam in the US, and the definition is shared by the Japanese site. Kira is not superior to other Coordinator's he was simply born exactly how he was supposed to be. That's all it ever meant to the Ultimate Coordinator. In fact for all the claims he's superior to other Coordinators everyone in position to know never makes mention of such a thing. The doctor onboard the Archangel never suggests Kira is physically more resistent then a normal coordinator, and Andy Waltfeld says Kira is exceptionally smart, but he never says he's smarter then other high level coordinators. The facts are Kira was born to look a certian way, and because he came out looking the way he was supposed to be was a successful product of the Ultimate Coordinator project.

[Rukia]

Probably Kira in the Freedom. Assuming that the pilots and mobile suits are equal...Kira has an extra gear to kick it into with that silly Seed Mode of his.

[alexxb]

Hmm.... Seems your right. I guess I got confused because I remember something about First Generation Coordinator and Ultimate Coordinator....


Question:

Is Kira's berserk-er mode his seed mode something else. Its been a few years since I watched Seed.

[NewtypeS3]

Hmm.... Seems your right. I guess I got confused because I remember something about First Generation Coordinator and Ultimate Coordinator....
Except that George Glenn, the first Coordinator, wasn't 'fantastical' either - nor are any of the First-Generation Coordinators. Really, it seems like you just gathered random fan-assumptions and then assumed that it was fact.

Is Kira's berserk-er mode his seed mode something else. Its been a few years since I watched Seed.
It's his Seed mode - just referred to by Andy as 'some sort of Berserker Mode.' Really, it's just one more part of Seed's uneven writing that makes them seem different.

[Biolink]

Freedom is faster and Kira is as said before the ultimate Coordinator because of that fact he will be faster in reflexis

Holy shit that was funny :laugh

I'm not going back for the Math that we've already did pages back, but I'm sure this will be disproven quickly.

[alexxb]

Well found it kinda of stupid that Kira has no special ability given to him for being the Ultimate Coordinator other than physical appearance, can't regular coordinator do that?? In fact, isn't that what a coordinator is??

[Red Zaku]

Well found it kinda of stupid that Kira has no special ability given to him for being the Ultimate Coordinator other than physical appearance, can't regular coordinator do that?? In fact, isn't that what a coordinator is??


They went over this in the re-cap episode with George Glenn, because of the mothers womb sometimes coordinators aren't born as they're genetically pre-determined to be. IE. They might have blue eyes instead of green. In extreme cases like Elijah Kiel he is mentally as intelligent as any coordinator but physically he only lives up to the level of a Natural. In fact during the first SEED in the George Glenn background episode we see mothers discarding their children because they have the wrong hair color.

[Biolink]

Probably Kira in the Freedom. Assuming that the pilots and mobile suits are equal...Kira has an extra gear to kick it into with that silly Seed Mode of his.

Not even.

Kira has never piloted anything beyond State of the Art equipment. He's never set foot in anything that wasn't a Gundam. Got Strike Rouge torn apart, while biding his time for Lacus to bring him the new and improved Spambot.

Meanwhile Heero held his own in an archaic piece of shit against Wufei and Altron.

I'm more than sure that Heero could hold his own against Kira's adrenaline rush/SEED, because the sheer difference in Pilot Skill would protect Heero.

Well found it kinda of stupid that Kira has no special ability given to him for being the Ultimate Coordinator other than physical appearance, can't regular coordinator do that?? In fact, isn't that what a coordinator is??

"Regular" Coordinators do have a slightly modified appearance I would imagine from the regular Average Joe in addition to being stronger, but the Ultimate Coordinator project took it a step further with manipulating the fetus's every detail.

The problem before was that vain parents were upset that trivial thing's such as eye and hair color came out wrong with their Child. This was due to the fetus's presence in the Mother's womb. The fetus would take on traits from the Mother. The Ultimate Coordinator project uses an Artificial womb, so this allowed them to manipulate every detail of the child. Of course the project wasn't successful because only one known child came out perfect.

[alexxb]

They went over this in the re-cap episode with George Glenn, because of the mothers womb sometimes coordinators aren't born as they're genetically pre-determined to be. IE. They might have blue eyes instead of green. In extreme cases like Elijah Kiel he is mentally as intelligent as any coordinator but physically he only lives up to the level of a Natural. In fact during the first SEED in the George Glenn background episode we see mothers discarding their children because they have the wrong hair color.

Oh, I skipped the recap episodes.

Also, what Kira lacks in piloting skills, he makes up for in computing/changing the MS's OS (according to most of you right).

[Biolink]

Oh, I skipped the recap episodes.

Also, what Kira lacks in piloting skills, he makes up for in computing/changing the MS's OS (according to most of you right).

He's not that Gdlk to the point that his Computer skills make up for his almost complete lack of skill(Sans Strike Gundam). Well as evidenced by his raping of the entire CE Universe maybe it can make up for his lack of skill or adaptation ability. Only against grunts though.

Either way against an opponent like Heero, you will need a whole lot more than Computer smarts to win.

[reaperunique]

...care to explain why KIRA LOST TO SHIN IN THEIR ONLY DECISIVE BATTLE, then? I mean, we've got in-series evidence for the following skill levels:
Shin > Kira
Kira > Athrun
Athrun > Shin
Kira > Rey
Shin > Rey
Sure, because Athrun beat Shin and Kira beat Athrun, you could make an argument for Kira > Shin... until you realize that in their only decisive battle, Kira lost to Shin badly. Thus, Kira can't actually be better than Shin.

Until you have actual proof for... anything, I can't help but observe that Sunrise actually avoided this subject completely for Destiny.



The reason why Kira was defeated by Shinn was because he first made a study of Kira's fightpattern together with Rey which took him a day or two. This was on the earth. Shinn didn't do this in space and lost almost immediatly to Athrun. Shinn can only win from Kira if he makes a strategy. And even then, Rey and Shinn said it themselfs the only weakspot of Kira is the fact that he doesn't hit the cockpit, if Kira would go al out and didn't care for peoples lives like Shinn did he would win easely. Kira is the ultimate coordinator if he would go al out Shinn would have never won from Kira

KIRA OWNZ THE WORLD!! :bang

this said I don't care if you come with another smart reply, it's anime. I'm all for commen sence and all but I'm sure that if Kira and Shinn would fight Kira would win.He is the ultimate coordinator for a reason. Now this is my last post here. enjoy your discussion -_^

[NewtypeS3]

The reason why Kira was defeated by Shinn was because he first made a study of Kira's fightpattern together with Rey which took him a day or two.
...and? Does this mean it's wrong for a football team to go over tapes of games of other teams so they can try to find a weakness to exploit? Does this mean it's wrong for military generals to look to the past for examples and tactics that can become useful?
An intelligent fighter actually studies their opponent before charging blindly into battle. While Shin wasn't alone in the analysation, Shin was certainly the one who started the training-specifically-to-beat-Kira.

This was on the earth. Shinn didn't do this in space and lost almost immediatly to Athrun.
This was partially because Shin most likely assumed he already knew Athrun's fighting style, thanks to how ineffectively Athrun once fought by Shin's side, remember? If you fight alongside someone, odds are pretty good you'll learn at least some of how they fight.
Of course, Shin didn't really count on the writer taking it the rest of the way with 'insane bias towards the old cast.'

Shinn can only win from Kira if he makes a strategy.
...'not get hit by disabling shots and always charge in at the enemy' is a strategy? While Shin's certainly a smart guy, this was an extremely simple tactic - one that had been blatantly obvious that would be perfect against Kira since day one. Even Rau figured that one out!

And even then, Rey and Shinn said it themselfs the only weakspot of Kira is the fact that he doesn't hit the cockpit, if Kira would go al out and didn't care for peoples lives like Shinn did he would win easely.
Actually, Shin also found out that Kira doesn't like melee. This is shown blatantly when Kira tries to flee into a spot where he can get off a good shot... by flying backwards.

Kira is the ultimate coordinator if he would go al out Shinn would have never won from Kira
...and you know what the Ultimate Coordinator means, right? Because it's nothing worth bragging about. Straight from Bandai themselves, the actual meaning of the term is...
Ultimate Coordinator
The final goal of the genetic engineers who created the Coordinators. Although Coordinators are mentally and physically superior to ordinary humans, their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator, whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Of the countless embryos which Hibiki used as test subjects for this artificial womb, his son Kira Yamato is believed to be the only survivor.
That's right, Kira is little more than the perfect little test-tube baby. He came out just as intended... brown hair, purple eyes, crying like a dying horse when sad... There's nothing to suggest there's more to it (and if there was, Bandai would have TOLD US), nor will there ever be.

KIRA OWNZ THE WORLD!! :bang
Perhaps if 'ownz'ing also includes 'getting his butt kicked by having his entire fighting style torn to shreds.'

this said I don't care if you come with another smart reply, it's anime. I'm all for commen sence and all but I'm sure that if Kira and Shinn would fight Kira would win.
Good to know you like to throw common sense out the window, too.

He is the ultimate coordinator for a reason.
Yeah, his biological father was a royal dick who wanted to play God and figured out how without killing the child. Ta-frickin-da.

Now this is my last post here. enjoy your discussion -_^
Thank god.

[reaperunique]

oh I just can't help myself :P

I put this:
KIRA OWNZ THE WORLD!!
in my prev post to show you that I wasn't really discussing but just having fun with you guy's :hoho

[Legend]

after a long fight the freedom would win

[superman_1]

freedom and kira would win all the way.....

[Oujisama]

I think spec-wise the freedom is a more powerful machine, its packing more ZOMGDESTROYEVERYTHING weapons than the wing zero. But I like Heero and I think his natural piloting skills can beat Kira

[Biolink]

Not even spec wise is Freedom stronger.

It's not faster
It's not as maneuverable
It's armor is weaker
It has more weapons, but the weapons that it does have are not close to the Twin Buster Rifle in power.

And to add on. The Twin Buster Rifle is THE ZOMGDESTROYEVERYTHING weapon

It also doesn't have the Zero System predicting it's every possible moment at every second.

Wing Zero is a FAR superior suit.

Combined with Heero's skill as a pilot, and I highly doubt it would be a close fight.

[Tendou Souji]

Heero would analyze Kira's fights and absolutely destroy him. IIRC Kira didn't have the killing intent whenever he fought, which wouldn't work against Heero.

Heero stomps.

[whocarehedidit]

I know this might be late but I would like to points out a few things about the Ultimate Coordinator/Berserk mode and the Zero System.

Ultimate Coordinator/ Berserk mode - SEED mode

Coordinators are genetically enhanced human beings which possess a number of enhanced traits, including faster learning and stronger and faster bodies that are virtually immune to diseases. They are physically and mentally superior to baseline normal humans. Coordinators are feared and hated by normal humans. Hatred and envy of Coordinators stem from their superior abilities. Furthermore, one must not confuse Coordinators with Newtypes, such as in After War Gundam X. Unlike Newtypes, Coordinators were artificially created, and in some episodes of Gundam Seed, it was revealed that "genetic saturation" with succeeding generations were occurring. Newtypes represented the next stage in natural human evolution, while Coordinators seemed to hit an evolutionary standstill that could only be surpassed with more forced genetic manipulation, (which just compounds the initial problem).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cosmic_Era_human_enhancements

SEED mode represents the ability for an individual with the SEED factor to enter into a state of enhanced awareness and peak physical ability. While in this state, the person (usually a mobile suit pilot, but not necessarily) demonstrates heightened reflexes and extremely quick information processing. This ability is usually triggered by extreme situations or from recalling significant traumas, often arising out of a need to protect someone else in a critical situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cosmic_Era_human_enhancements#SEED_factor

Zero System

However, one more factor put the Wing Zero above everything else: the cockpit's "Zero System," which allowed the pilot's mind to interface directly with the Gundam's combat computer. Although the exact nature of the Zero System's operation is unclear, it appeared to operate by "sampling" the pilot's thoughts and, combining them with current combat data, presented the pilot with various alternate outcomes. Thus, depending on the pilot's mood, the Zero System could tell him/her how to achieve total victory... or decisive defeat. Nevertheless, the mental stresses the Zero System would place on the pilot would be too great for any ordinary human to handle, and even the five mad scientists saw the dangerous turn their work was taking. And thus, the Wing Gundam Zero project was shelved. A copy of the plans went with each of the five scientists when they broke up and went underground to pursue their own individual plans for revolution against OZ. The Wing Zero design would serve as a base model for the five Gundams that would actually be built and sent to Earth.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/endlesswaltz/xxxg-00w0.htm

Now put this in a battle in which Kira piloting the Freedom/Strike and Heero piloting the Wing Zero/ Custom fight one of another. Kira have two advantage over Hero and that is the SEED mode and being the Ultimate Coordinator, if you read the quote from above Coordinator is someone who able to think and learn much quicker then an average human and Ultimate Coordinator being the same. When in SEED mode that trait is being enhanced to even further state where in some case people can call it as being a Newtype this would explain how Kira able to control the Dragoon perfectly when he first obtain Strike Freedom.

Now for Heero being a human who had Military training to the points where failing is not an option, even if it mean taking your life. Hero also able to pilot any mobile suit making him the perfect soldier. He also have the Wing Zero which equip with the Zero System with allow the pilot to become one with the gundam and allow him access to massive Strategy and able to achieve total victory, but being work with the pilot mood it could also tell the pilot total defeat.

Also I would like to point one more thing that been bugging me ever since I read all the post up to date, and that would be Kira programming ability. You guys said that Kira program all this into the Freedom yet there never been one ED. explaining that Kira did this. the only four time I saw Kira program this gundam was 1. When he first pilot the Strike, then come the desert and very last when he had access to the Freedom/ Strike freedom. Now please think about this, when Kira first obtain Strike he had to reprogram it so that he is able to control it due to the fact that he said there no way anyone can control it. Same thing with the Freedom/ Strike Freedom it was stolen and where program it for some other person to pilot it, when Kira first use the Freedom/ Strike Freedom it was also his first time seeing it so he had to redo some thing that will fit him best.

Also how do you know that Wing pilots had not already program their machined to adapt to their surrounding? All of the fight were all plan out on Earth as to who they will attack and to where. Even the fight between Zack and Heero, they all have time to prepare for battle, during that time Trowa could have program in everything for Heero already.

But yeah, it just my thought. XD oh please if you think there is grammer mistake dont remind me >.> i know but that dont stop me from expressing my thought.

[NewtypeS3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cosmic_Era_human_enhancements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cosmic_Era_human_enhancements#SEED_factor
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/endlesswaltz/xxxg-00w0.htm
I don't mind you randomly quoting websites, but don't use Wikipedia. Anyone can edit the website to say anything - for example, I could declare on Wiki that Coordinators are only called so because they're never klutzy. And then it would be so, according to Wiki.
Furthermore, this stuff has kinda already been addressed to death, so randomly quoting sources without an argument to sort it all out makes no sense.

Kira have two advantage over Hero and that is the SEED mode
...which boils down to 'actually trying.'

and being the Ultimate Coordinator,
There's one problem with that.
Being the Ultimate Coordinator means nothing. This has already been dealt with before in this topic, to death I might add, and Bandai/Sunrise themselves have said that Kira only came out as he was genetically planned to be.
Proof: http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/glossary_misc.html#ultimate
The final goal of the genetic engineers who created the Coordinators. Although Coordinators are mentally and physically superior to ordinary humans, their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator, whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Of the countless embryos which Hibiki used as test subjects for this artificial womb, his son Kira Yamato is believed to be the only survivor.
That's right, Kira's nothing special beyond being the ultimate designer baby.

if you read the quote from above Coordinator is someone who able to think and learn much quicker then an average human and Ultimate Coordinator being the same.
Ok, sure. The problem comes from the emphasis on average human. As Wing has shown to great lengths, Heero is far from average. He can still operate with a total of 200 broken bones and bruises (episode 3), he can snap a broken bone back into place (episode 3), he has enough skills and knowledge to survive a delayed deployment of a parachute as he falls from a 33-story building in order to only suffer from bruises, a dislocated shoulder and a broken leg (episode 3). He's also bent steel before (episode 8)... and that's just in the first 10 episodes.
Heero also has the mental strength to survive using the ZERO System for an extended amount of time, and is arguably the first person to master the use of the original form of the system in the series.

So yeah, Kira may think better and be better physically built than Mr. Joe Average, but Heero's a trained soldier since... oh... at least age 8. And he's 15 by Wing's opening episodes.

When in SEED mode that trait is being enhanced to even further state where in some case people can call it as being a Newtype this would explain how Kira able to control the Dragoon perfectly when he first obtain Strike Freedom.
...but he's not a Newtype.
At all.
Ever.

Director Fukuda himself has said that Kira isn't a Newtype, and MAHQ has the stats of the S-Freedom listed from Bandai themselves: The S-Freedom uses the easy DRAGOONs, which are computer run!
Proof on the former is hard to come by, coming from a post-Destiny interview that has almost vanished from the internet, but here's proof on the latter: http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/SEED-DESTINY/zgmf-x20a.htm
The DRAGOON units housed in the wings utilize an improved quantum communications system, allowing normal pilots without expanded spatial awareness to use them.
While Rey is obviously a Newtype, sharing the same DNA as Rau and genetically being Mu's father... Kira has no such luxury and shows no moments before using the Super DRAGOONs of the S-Freedom.

Now for Heero being a human who had Military training to the points where failing is not an option, even if it mean taking your life.
Actually, Heero's failed quite a few times without taking his own life. The thing is, he's dedicated enough that he will take his own life if it's plausible.

but being work with the pilot mood it could also tell the pilot total defeat.
As I said, he essentially mastered the system by the end of Wing.

Also I would like to point one more thing that been bugging me ever since I read all the post up to date, and that would be Kira programming ability. You guys said that kira program all this into the freedom yet there never been one ED. explaining that Kira did this. the only four time I saw Kira program this gundam was 1. When he first pilot the Strike, then come the desert and every last when he had access to the Freedom/ Strike freedom.
Actually, they state several times that Kira's reprogramming the operating system in the Freedom to target only the cameras and limbs of the enemy mobile suits. I'd give you the exact episode numbers, but my Seed collection is currently sitting at home - and I'm literally 200 miles away at college.
It's never shown onscreen, but it's obvious Kira does it. Unless you think ZAFT would program their death machine to only disable the enemy.

Now please think about this when Kira first obtain Strike he had to reprogram it so that he is able to control it due to the fact that he said there no way anyone can control it.
....no, that's not true at all. Murrue was actually piloting the machine before Kira shoved her aside.
What was happening was that the Strike had an inefficient operating system. It worked decently, but was not viable for a real combat situation without a skilled pilot inside. And even then, it would have had problems that the armor and weaponry would have made up for as the pilots gained experience. Once again, Murrue and Sai were able to pilot the Strike - Murrue before and Sai after the reprogramming. Though Sai was horrible at it and nearly crashed the Strike.
What Kira did was essentially clean up the code and make the suit run efficiently - but also making it nearly impossible for someone who wasn't a Coordinator to pilot the unit in a combat situation. This is how someone like Sai was capable of using the Strike, even if it was only for a minute.

It's explained in-series, so I'm wondering how you missed that - particularly when they say the only reason Kira even pulled it off was that he was working on the MS-OS project without knowing it (first episode, he's working on essentially the same friggin' thing as a mobile suit - he's not doing it randomly)!

Same thing with the Strike Freedom it was stolen and where program it for some other person to pilot it, when Kira first use the Strike Freedom it was also his first time seeing it so he had to redo some thing that will fit him best.
...except he's not reprogramming the S-Freedom at all. He's running the startup program.
The unit contained an operating system based heavily upon the one he utilized in the Freedom, because the unit was stolen/built (they still can't figure out which) by Lacus and she somehow had a copy of the Operating System. The fact that she just gives it to Kira without saying "it's unfinished" or warning him or anything proves that - as well as the MAHQ entry I linked earlier.

Also how do you know that Wing pilot had not already program their machine to adapt to their surrounding? All of the fight were all plan out on Earth as to who they will attack and to where.
...had Wing's characters ever been capable of re-writing their operating systems (and by this, I mean capable of accessing something so easy to screw up), Duo would have done it before going into space combat in the Deathscythe.
Or Wufei, before he did the same in the Shenlong.
Or Quatre, before he did the same in the Sandrock.
Or Trowa, before he tried the same in the Heavyarms.

That's right - a mobile suit needs to be overhauled before they can work in Space. Not 'reprogrammed.' This is explained at great length in Wing, particularly in the Duo and Quatre examples.

Even the fight between Zack and Heero they all have time to perpare for battle, during that time Trowa could have program in everything for Heero already.
...and yet, he didn't. Because there's no way to 'reprogram' the mecha in any other Gundam franchise. What Trowa did, instead, was train Heero in how to use a machine that was not his own and give him pointers (such as 'the left control stick isn't weight-balanced for the insane weight of the gun', which suggests a more direct-connection with movement than you realize) - and also give Heero access to a one-time beam saber.
They went to great extent explaining this one as well, even putting stress on the fact that there isn't a way to reprogram an operating system in Wing.

So... you really brought nothing new to the table. Great try, though - no one else had thought of the Wing Guys reprogramming operating systems...
...even if the series explains it can't be done.

[Sander RX]

Kira is simply the best pilot Gundam has ever known(ya rly...)...he can intercept enemy beamz with his own(although he has never shown such skill),he is the Ultimate Coordinator(though that means crap) and a genius(yet a naive fool at the same time).
He is always disadvanteged at a battle(always has the best units available) and he fought 4 Red aces(which are nothing but top academy graduates ie elite noobs expirience wise) in units of similiar power(one holding back,one mostly occupied with Mwu,one never using the best feature of his suit (Mirrage Colloid) when attacking Strike and the one who fights him most often being too hot headed) and as one knowladgeble Gundam fan pointed out to me in Kira vs Amuro debate,each of these "superaces" could have raped Char with ease(sure they can...)
So seriously,what chance does a normal *super*human like Heero have?No chance!
Not to mention tha Strike Freedom is teh strongest suit evah(with other suits in its own show exceeding it in certain fields).
Kira looses only when he isnt serious(Athrun...Aegis vs Strike...rewatch) and I post such crap only when I am bored.

[Heero]

he can intercept enemy beamz with his own(although he has never shown such skill)
wat?
So seriously,what chance does a normal *super*human like Heero have?No chance!
Heero is a super soldier and he has the Zero system which gives him the ability to predict movements to an extent.
Not to mention tha Strike Freedom is teh strongest suit evah(with other suits in its own show exceeding it in certain fields).
yes in its own show its strong, but Wing zero in a better suit for sure.
Kira looses only when he isnt serious(Athrun...Aegis vs Strike...rewatch) and I post such crap only when I am bored.
Kira Looses always

[Biolink]

Not sure if you knew or not, but he was being sarcastic

[reaperunique]

I doubt it, some people here take things to seriously, there are japanese scientist for that.

[Biolink]

He was being sarcastic. The parenthesis.

Kira is simply the best pilot Gundam has ever known(ya rly...)...he can intercept enemy beamz with his own(although he has never shown such skill),he is the Ultimate Coordinator(though that means crap) and a genius(yet a naive fool at the same time).

He was just playing Devil's Advocate, because the stuff that wasn't in parenthesis is something that really only a hardcore Seed fan would actually believe or even say. At least that's the stereotype of Seed fans at least. Fans who have only seen Gundam Seed and Gundam Seed Destiny, and suddenly think they have the capability to comment on every Gundam series without having even seen some of the stuff in a few other series, which is light years ahead of any of the Seed mech's

[Sander RX]

is something that really only a hardcore Seed fan would actually believe or even say.
Funny,but most of the crap I posted,was what I've actually heard from some extreme Kira fanboys...hell D-KLAC(aka GS-LCorig aka THE seed troll) once said Kira would beat SRW universe(you know,Ideon and other supers included) by "destroying their weapons".
P.S Kira is actually a great pilot...when he is trying(and I dont mean his non-killing policy here).

[reaperunique]

Funny,but most of the crap I posted,was what I've actually heard from some extreme Kira fanboys...hell D-KLAC(aka GS-LCorig aka THE seed troll) once said Kira would beat SRW universe(you know,Ideon and other supers included) by "destroying their weapons".
P.S Kira is actually a great pilot...when he is trying(and I dont mean his non-killing policy here).

self explanatory :)

but he isn't, stay to facts.... would someone say, believe me they would, some people here are xtreme :pek

[Sander RX]

Too bad the debate is over...too bad.I like Gundam VS.

[Biolink]

Funny,but most of the crap I posted,was what I've actually heard from some extreme Kira fanboys...hell D-KLAC(aka GS-LCorig aka THE seed troll) once said Kira would beat SRW universe(you know,Ideon and other supers included) by "destroying their weapons".
P.S Kira is actually a great pilot...when he is trying(and I dont mean his non-killing policy here).

I know you.

You post on Animesuki.

I'm Amuro_Ray

I just don't have time to post as much anymore.

Yeah Lcorig is a fucking idiot. Hahaha that guy is so stupid it's unbelievable.

[Sander RX]

I know you.

You post on Animesuki.

I'm Amuro_Ray

I just don't have time to post as much anymore.

Yeah Lcorig is a fucking idiot. Hahaha that guy is so stupid it's unbelievable.
Meh,I do random posts there here and there...thats pretty much it:amuse

I used to post on AE(firer instead of RX)

On topic:TBR is both underrated by some(seen as slow cannon when its actually somewhat similiar to VSBRs and G-BRD) when AND overrated by some(as in the most powerful weapon in Gundamverse).

[reaperunique]

Too bad the debate is over...too bad.I like Gundam VS.

how to restart the debate:

Kira is fucking jebus he could destroy heero or anyone else if he wanted to kill
his gundam is superior in every aspect.

[Biolink]

Meh,I do random posts there here and there...thats pretty much it:amuse

I used to post on AE(firer instead of RX)

On topic:TBR is both underrated by some(seen as slow cannon when its actually somewhat similiar to VSBRs and G-BRD) when AND overrated by some(as in the most powerful weapon in Gundamverse).

Wait, not Animesuki >_<

Anime-Eden