Dragonball vs. Lord of the Rings

[The Anti-Existence]

Since Z be way too much, let's say DB takes on everything in LOTR. No omnipotents or crap like that.

I know there's supposed to be stuff like First Age, Second Agea dn Third Age Middle Earth...so someone tell me what's the difference.

And at what point in DB are the two a good match?

[martryn]

Well, I think the hordes of Balrogs would own up on DB, personally. You'd have to get to the Namek saga before things started getting too heavy for Tolkien's world, at least from my stance.

[mystictrunks]

Dragon Ball world has a real army. Bombs and shit will fuck the Tolkien creations up.

[Birkin]

Tambourine can almost solo this alone.

[martryn]

Dragon Ball world has a real army. Bombs and shit will fuck the Tolkien creations up.

Oh, shit, forgot about that stuff. Yeah, with modern technology you wouldn't even need anyone with any ability with martial arts.

[Thanatos]

How about if we limit it to just the martial artists?

[The Anti-Existence]

Yeahl, we can do that.

[Galearm]

DB takes this but the Maiar may pose some trouble...

[A]

Ilúvatar ...
But since no omnipotent's are allowed then kid Goku solos this ... Seriously he took a missile without getting any injuries.

[Gaelek_13]

King Piccolo, Piccoo Junior and End of Series Goku would stomp the 2nd and 3rd Age on their own. Against the 1st Age...perhaps not so much....

[Shuntensatsu]

Piccolo's, Muten Roshi, and Goku are too much for LoTR.

Roshi busted the moon for christ sake.

[Enclave]

Piccolo's, Muten Roshi, and Goku are too much for LoTR.

Roshi busted the moon for christ sake.

The Valar and Maiar sang the world into existence.

[Gaelek_13]

The Valar and Maiar sang the world into existence.

I think he just means what was shown in LoTR not LoTRverse.

[Pintsize]

I think he just means what was shown in LoTR not LoTRverse.
I know there's supposed to be stuff like First Age, Second Agea dn Third Age Middle Earth...so someone tell me what's the difference.

The ages all date some fundamental point in the proximity of all creation's point from being created, and exposed to the 'sacred fire', the source of all power in Arda. The longer away things are from said power source, the less of it they fundamentally posses, thus first age beings will be as a general rule more capable than their second age counterparts, second to third, etc.

As for who would win between Arda and DB? Well, until you have planet busters, you really don't have anything to threaten the Valar, who as the spirits of power in the world, live on as 'the life of the planet'. Even discounting the Valar, you have people like Fingolfin, who battled, and repeatedly wounded, the strongest Vala until he lost because he couldn't go on forever, like his opponent. Luthein can sing the pits of hell to sleep, sing things into destruction, etc. And well, then there's Feanor...

[Crimson Dragoon]

Wasn't Morgoth far weaker than he used to be when he battled Fingolfin? I don't think he was anywhere near the strongest Valar at that point in time since he spent most of his power corrupting creation.

[Pintsize]

It's debatable. Either way, at one point, he was far and above the strongest Vala.

[omg laser pew pew!]

Wasn't Morgoth far weaker than he used to be when he battled Fingolfin? I don't think he was anywhere near the strongest Valar at that point in time since he spent most of his power corrupting creation.

Pretty much right, he was originally the mightiest Vala but spent too much of his power doing stuff that he was pretty much nothing at his fall

[Gaelek_13]

Morgoth was the strongest but "spread himself too thin" if you will and because he confined himself to a physical form he lost several of his powers as I recall.

Wasn't his face scarred and he had a limp because he was unable to regenerate them as he used to be able to? And didn't he lose his power to alter his shape?

[omgbbq]

bombs and guns > stupid orcs.

[Reznor]

Red Ribbon Army would take this easy.

If we disallow them, well.... notice that the martial artists in DB stomped the Red Ribbon Army :P

King Piccolo and Roshi can definitely take out armies with their attacks.

[Pintsize]

Red Ribbon Army would take this easy.

If we disallow them, well.... notice that the martial artists in DB stomped the Red Ribbon Army

King Piccolo and Roshi can definitely take out armies with their attacks.

Of what was shown in Arda during LoTR, sure. Of all Arda past and present without Illuvatar? Hell no.

[omg laser pew pew!]

Morgoth was the strongest but "spread himself too thin" if you will and because he confined himself to a physical form he lost several of his powers as I recall.

Wasn't his face scarred and he had a limp because he was unable to regenerate them as he used to be able to? And didn't he lose his power to alter his shape?

He wasn't the strongest physically, that belongs to Tulkas. I just remember that the books said he was originally the 'mightiest' over and over again.

[Pintsize]

It's kind of ambiguous. Melkor fought evenly against all the other valar combined until Tulkas showed up. Then Melkor got pwnt.

Yet Tulkas isn't even considered one of the greater vala. I think the distinction in 'might' versus fighting capability lies in the ability to affect the world at large. Melkor, having a share in all powers of all vala, had the ability to affect the world around him completely, like say... a reality warper. Though he couldn't create of his own power, no one can dispute that most of the events leading to, and concerning the third age were tied up in him.

Without Morgoth there would be no dragons, no little wee beasties, no hell, no Carcaroth, no dissension among the mortal races. He had the ability to do these things, and no mortal had the ability to oppose his 'might', or defeat him because of his status as a vala. It makes sense when you look at might this way and think back on the music of Illuvatar with the chorus of the ainur. Melkor put the most of himself into the music, and therefor had the most control.

Tulkas, while being a mighty fighter, is just that. He doesn't have an amazing mind, he has no direct control over any element, is the inspiration for no craft. His sphere of influence is limited only to what he himself can interact with, but within that sphere he is supreme.

[omg laser pew pew!]

When Melkor is described as 'Mightiest', I think it meant overall he is the strongest. Tulkas clearly is the physically strongest but that's probably the only place that he shines at since Melkor has many other traits

[The Anti-Existence]

Then who can survive a moon-buster K-Wave?

[Khamzul]

^Most of the Vala/Maia? I don't think they can die. Melkor was really the only one who could be harmed, but that was because he restricted himself to his body (or am I confusing him with Sauron here?).

Anyway, I don't think that most of the Vala/Maia could be hurt by a direct attack. Then again we have the Balrogs, which can die from a pointy helmet (wasen't it?) which also where maia.

If we are talking just as shown in Lord of the Rings, then probably none.

[Enclave]

^Most of the Vala/Maia? I don't think they can die. Melkor was really the only one who could be harmed, but that was because he restricted himself to his body (or am I confusing him with Sauron here?).

Anyway, I don't think that most of the Vala/Maia could be hurt by a direct attack. Then again we have the Balrogs, which can die from a pointy helmet (wasen't it?) which also where maia.

If we are talking just as shown in Lord of the Rings, then probably none.

You cannot outright kill a Vala or Maia. Balrog's being Maia cannot be killed, their physical bodies can be but their essence remains and theoretically they could after time form a new body (Like Sauron did) or be given a new one by the Valar (Like Gandalf was).

Also you cannot outright kill a Noldor Elf, a prime example is Glorfindel, he was killed in the process of killing a Balrog, he was then reborn in Valinor and eventually even sent back to Middle Earth.

Then there is Morgoth, they couldn't kill him so they did the next best thing, sealed him away hopefully for an eternity.

[Reznor]

Well, are they evil? Evil containment wave.

If not, the spirit jars could get them.

[thegoodjae]

Would that not be a Fallacy anyways?

[Khamzul]

^Well, only a few ((7) Balrogs, Morgoth and the spider Maia (can't remember name)) of the Maia/Vala are evil. Then there is Morgoths taint which has corrupted Middle Earth to some degree.

By the way Enclave, thanks for clearing that up. However, I would say that they can be killed, even if they are able to reform. Still, that is a question up to definition.

[Pintsize]

Well, are they evil? Evil containment wave.

If not, the spirit jars could get them.

Could a spirit jar (from a lore perspective, not based on DC or Marvel incarnations) contain Zues, Thor, or Posiden? Because that's basically what they'd have to be doing here.

[Reznor]

Could a spirit jar (from a lore perspective, not based on DC or Marvel incarnations) contain Zues, Thor, or Posiden? Because that's basically what they'd have to be doing here.
Well, could they survive a moon-buster?

Either you disallow no limits fallacies, and there's no evidence that they can survive something of that magnitude.

- OR -

You allow no limits fallacies, and then there's no reason that one of those wouldn't work on them, since ECW and SB never didn't work.

Either way, DB wins.