Who can/cannot beat Dark Schneider?

[Keollyn]

Since I kicked that bastard off my regular's list, he'll not get any presentable first post. So, who can and cannot beat him at his strongest?

[Kira-chan]

Um... L-sama/Lina, Z, Haruhi Suzumiya, Belldandy, Asuka with the Infinity Gauntlet (she exists! :nod )...

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Dispel Bound effects:

Radar-disruption
Sonicwaves
Dive
Treasure detect
Instant Victory
Power
Punch-block
Blessing-block
Trap-detector
Penicillin
Energy-block
Magic resistance
Counter
Regeneration
Mind-defense
Anti-Assimilator
Reality warping
Anti-Magic
Anti-paralysis
Danger-detection
Lie-detector
Antidote
Herbicide
Anty-gas
Intertia-control
Anti-Immortality
Error-detect
Control
Camouflage
Insecticide
Anti-creation/life

The two obligatory: Omnipotents, Adam of Light

Anyway, anyone who has a way of attacking that circumvents all of the above protections/effects, has attacks capable of breaking through dimensions, doesn't use fire or darkness in their attacks, moves and attacks at or beyond the speed of light and can attack on several planes of existence at once should be a good start.

Said person should also have a fundamental understanding of magic and be able to use it without words, just with thought and movement. He/She/It should also be durable enough to withstand dimension breaking attacks and stronger.

[Keollyn]

Um... L-sama

Fixed that for you.

Z

How so?

Haruhi Suzumiya

Really?

Belldandy

You sure?

Asuka with the Infinity Gauntlet (she exists! :nod )...

Asuka? Soryu? I thought only Osaka was sole owner of the Infinity Gauntlet?

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

I doubt the Light Hawk Wings would work on Dark Schneider:

Energy-block
Blessing-block
Reality warping

And I truly wonder where that multiplying by zero came from in connection with the LHW.

This is an official interview (even printed in book form) that covers 101 questions about Tenchi Muyo (even the capabilities of the LHWs):

http://www.rolfotto.com/101_FACTS/TENCHI_101_FACTS.html

[Kira-chan]

Fixed that for you.
Now that's just too easy. :P
How so?
The LHWs reduce all defenses and all attacks to zero, Dispel Bound is no exception.
Really?
Now which one of them is a universal scale reality warper? Oh yeah, check!
You sure?
Same as above. Check!
Asuka? Soryu? I thought only Osaka was sole owner of the Infinity Gauntlet?
Osaka doesn't *need* the Infinity Gauntlet. :P Asuka has to have it so she can be talked down and adopted by Belldandy silly. :amuse
I doubt the Light Hawk Wings would work on Dark Schneider:

Energy-block
Blessing-block
Reality warping

And I truly wonder where that multiplying by zero came from in connection with the LHW.

This is an official interview (even printed in book form) that covers 101 questions about Tenchi Muyo (even the capabilities of the LHWs):

http://www.rolfotto.com/101_FACTS/TENCHI_101_FACTS.html
That list makes it even worse since it calls the LHWs the power of God. Dark Schneider isn't even of the level of Beelzubub, let alone the God of his world. According to every indication there it's above energy, blessing or reality, and that list was made before OAV 3 even came out...

[Keollyn]

And reality warping a universe does what to DS? I'm just curious.

[Kira-chan]

And reality warping a universe does what to DS? I'm just curious.
The universe itself? Not necessarily anything. All of that power concentrated on him? Plenty.

[Keollyn]

Well, the universe tends to have no "defense" against begin warped, so I was wondering if a universal reality warper can do the same to someone who does.

I'm no expert on characters who can reality warp anyway, so I just wanted to know.

[Kira-chan]

Well, the universe tends to have no "defense" against begin warped, so I was wondering if a universal reality warper can do the same to someone who does.

I'm no expert on characters who can reality warp anyway, so I just wanted to know.
I'm mostly basing this on the fact that Majin Darshe himself isn't quite on universal level. Uriel's Augoeides (which is only shown to be galaxy busting) was able to completely blow it away, and by all indications Beelzebub is stronger, let alone Satan and God.

[Keollyn]

Alright, I was just inquiring. I'm no expert on later vol DS (I'm still as early as vol 12)

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Now which one of them is a universal scale reality warper? Oh yeah, check!

Same as above. Check!

Reality warping

Last I've seen Dark Schneider is protected against reality warping. It doesn't matter how large the scale is. Reality warping is still reality warping.


That list makes it even worse since it calls the LHWs the power of God. Dark Schneider isn't even of the level of Beelzubub, let alone the God of his world. According to every indication there it's above energy, blessing or reality, and that list was made before OAV 3 even came out...

Yeah, but you're still spouting that fanon crap about the LHWs reducing everything to zero, even though that is never stated or at least implied.

Light Hawk Wings are energy, nothing more. And this is their effect:

Ko-oh-yoku does not shut the incoming energy out but converts it to harmless one.

They convert one kind energy to another one, that's their only effect. Nothing more and nothing less and Dark Schneider's Energy Block should protect him from that one.

This here even states that the Light Hawk Wings can be overcome if just enough energy is used (more than they can convert at a time):

How powerful are the royal trees and Jurai powers in general? What are the greatest feats of power?

A single 4th- or 5th-generation ship is more than a match for any vessel that any other space-faring nation can build. 6th- and 7th-generation Royal Trees can power a colony by themselves. It takes a big power supply equal to that of a star to overwhelm a light-hawk wing.

Source: http://www.astronerdboy.com/tenchi/


I'm mostly basing this on the fact that Majin Darshe himself isn't quite on universal level. Uriel's Augoeides was able to completely blow it away, and by all indications Beelzebub is stronger, let alone Satan and God.

Um... this thread is about Dark Schneider at his best, which would be Dark Schneider fused with the Dragon Knight. His Majin form is only his second most powerful state.

[Kira-chan]

Reality warping

Last I've seen Dark Schneider is protected against reality warping. It doesn't matter how large the scale is. Reality warping is still reality warping.
There has to be a limit, since Dark Schneider himself has limits. He's not omnipotent, he himself has never been shown to effect the entire universe.
Yeah, but you're still spouting that fanon crap about the LHWs reducing everything to zero, even though that is never stated or at least implied.

Light Hawk Wings are energy, nothing more. And this is their effect:



They convert one kind energy to another one, that's their only effect. Nothing more and nothing less and Dark Schneider's Energy Block should protect him from that one.
If the energy is made harmless it's essentially the same thing as being reduced to zero. *You* were the one who argued for Tenchi to be moved to Tier 1 on my list, I don't see how you can go from that to DS being above the LHWs...
This here even states that the Light Hawk Wings can be overcome if just enough energy is used (more than they can convert at a time):



Source: http://www.astronerdboy.com/tenchi/
That's specifically talking about the LHWs used by Jurain ships, Tenchi and Z are not Jurian ships.
Um... this thread is about Dark Schneider at his best, which would be Dark Schneider fused with the Dragon Knight. His Majin form is only his second most powerful state.
Last time I checked the Dragon Knight is not a part of Dark Schneider. He can summon it and merge with it, but it's not automatically a part of him.

[Yak]

There has to be a limit, since Dark Schneider himself has limits. He's not omnipotent, he himself has never been show to effect the entire universe.

Last time I checked the Dragon Knight is not a part of Dark Schneider. He can summon it and merge with it, but it's not automatically a part of him.

On the first paragraph: True, Dispel Bound has its limits. However, the shield that protects him from reality warping is just that, a shield that protects from reality warping in the small area where it is around DS. Everything else in the universe around that shield can be warped to no limitations. It is merely a means to protect him from attacks that could turn him into a frog on the spot or immediatelly rob him of his powers. That should still be the undefying effect of that shield.

However, since Dispel Bound and Judas Pain have their limits it is still possible to blast those shields away if you have enough force to do so.

On the second paragraph: No, Dragon Knight is not a part of Schneider. However, a summoning is a spell and DS is still a wizard before he is a majin in the first place. Meaning, every spell he has at stock can be used by Majin DS. This includes summoning a weapon, the Dragon Knight.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

There has to be a limit, since Dark Schneider himself has limits. He's not omnipotent, he himself has never been show to effect the entire universe.

The Dispel Bound is his protection. He is protected against reality warping, you can warp the universe as much as you want, but you can't warp him. That's like saying 'I'm completely immune to heat or fire' and then you say 'yeah, but this fire is big enough to hurt you'.

Think of the Dispel Bound like a Ribbon in a Final Fantasy game. Your enemy could cast a Poison spell on your entire party, but the one wearing the Ribbon would be immune to it.


If the energy is made harmless it's essentially the same thing as being reduced to zero. *You* were the one who argued for Tenchi to be moved to Tier 1 on my list, I don't see how you can go from that to DS being above the LHWs...

No it's not. The energy is not disappearing, it's just turned into another kind of energy. The Light Hawk Wings are energy, DS has Energy Block. There is nothing to misunderstand about that.

And what does that have to do with Kami Tenchi? You're not saying that Lina's Ragna Blade is unbeatable just because it draws power from L-Sama, do you?

That's specifically talking about the LHWs used by Jurain ships, Tenchi and Z are not Jurian ships.

The only LHWs with special properties were Tenchi's LHWs with their material conversion. It was never stated or implied that Z's wings vary in any kind from the ones Juraian ships can create.

Last time I checked the Dragon Knight is not a part of Dark Schneider. He can summon it and merge with it, but it's not automatically a part of him.

Yes, it is. Currently he is fused with it, thus it is part of him now. He can also summon it whenever and wherever he wants, proving that he has a connection with it that transcends dimensions. Dark Schneider was also created to fuse with the Dragon Knight.

If you deny him the Dragon Knight, you could just as well deny him the Judas Pain.

[Kira-chan]

On the first paragraph: True, Dispel Bound has its limits. However, the shield that protects him from reality warping is just that, a shield that protects from reality warping in the small area where it is around DS. Everything else in the universe around that shield can be warped to no limitations. It is merely a means to protect him from attacks that could turn him into a frog on the spot or immediatelly rob him of his powers. That should still be the undefying effect of that shield.
But seeing as how universal or lower level beings (Uriel) have been shown to be able to break through it I don't see how it could protect him from a universal reality warper.
However, since Dispel Bound and Judas Pain have their limits it is still possible to blast those shields away if you have enough force to do so.
Exactly. So if it can be done with a blast why can't it be done with another form of power?
On the second paragraph: No, Dragon Knight is not a part of Schneider. However, a summoning is a spell and DS is still a wizard before he is a majin in the first place. Meaning, every spell he has at stock can be used by Majin DS. This includes summoning a weapon, the Dragon Knight.
The point is just that he doesn't start out with the Dragon Knight. He has to summon it first, and that takes some time.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

But seeing as how universal or lower level beings (Uriel) have been shown to be able to break through it I don't see how it could protect him from a universal reality warper.

Because Dark Schneider can't be warped. He's immune to it.

Exactly. So if it can be done with a blast why can't it be done with another form of power?

Because he's immune to that other power?

The point is just that he doesn't start out with the Dragon Knight. He has to summon it first, and that takes some time.

It is still within his power to get it though and he also doesn't start out as a Majin either, he has to transform for that and that took time as well.

This is written in the opening post:
So, who can and cannot beat him at his strongest?

Dark Scheider at his strongest would be Dark Schneider fused with the Dragon Knight.

[Yak]

But seeing as how universal or lower level beings (Uriel) have been shown to be able to break through it I don't see how it could protect him from a universal reality warper.

Exactly. So if it can be done with a blast why can't it be done with another form of power?

The point is just that he doesn't start out with the Dragon Knight. He has to summon it first, and that takes some time.

You can't throw Uriel in with beings of his level or above his level but from other manga/comic universes. Uriel is an Angel, the definition of his being is part of the Bastard!! verse as much as that of Devils and humans. DS is a "devil-man", Uriel is an angel. Both have the respective means of their types to take each other down.

Uriel is able to break the Dispel Bound because he is a Dispel Bound user himself and after his fall he had enough energy to be on the same level as DS or nearly there.

Devils and Angels can use Dispel Bound and cast spells as a mere consequence of their movements. Devils, just like Angels are actually only manifested energy. Devils are stronger in Hell, so are Angels in Heaven. When they are fighting in hermetically closed spaces (like Hell, which is nothing but a black hole or within the atmosphere of a planet) their access to cosmic powers is limited (which is, in essence what gives them their powers, God's divine energy which is spread throughout the universe or for the devils its the negative energy pendant).

Of course Uriel is able to break through DS' Dispel Bound or rewrite it with his own Dispel Bound, simply because he has reached an energy level almost equal to DS. Dark Schneider still beat him because he was just a little stronger and faster and managed to exceed Uriel's own repair speed.

Uriel would've been done for if Beelzebub hadn't freed his Augoeides-body from the ice of Kokyutos, which Uriel could transform into new energy to repair his dying body. His fall caused the Augoeides to mutate into a Dark Augoeides and he merged with it. Being in his true form he had access to incredible amounts of energy to simply blast away Majin DS' Dispel Bound.

The point of all this is, other than the angels and devils from Bastard!! there is no other being in other manga universes that has access to the means Uriel has. They don't have a Dispel Bound themselves they could use to rewrite DS'.

However, they might have significiant cosmic powers to do so. For example, I can see Galactus squashing him fairly easy.

As for the reality warping, as I said before, it only protects DS from being warped. A being that is a reality warper can't warp DS unless it has the powerlevel to destroy the shield (re-writing is a non-issue since this requires another Dispel Bound). If said being isn't on the same power level as DS but still a reality warper of universal scale, there are other means to break DS' shields. For example, the universe around DS could be warped in such a way that 50 Million Planets the size of our sun are dropped on Majin DS. Dispel Bound good bye.

As for the Dragon Knight - who cares if he needs time to summon that? If he can manage to get this time at his hands, why should he not be allowed to use it? The time it needs to fuse with it is already a big draw back factor for him, serves for a handicap to justify its use. I mean, Uriel could've squashed DS during that time if he hadn't been busy merging with his Dark Augoeides himself.

[Kira-chan]

The Dispel Bound is his protection. He is protected against reality warping, you can warp the universe as much as you want, but you can't warp him. That's like saying 'I'm completely immune to heat or fire' and then you say 'yeah, but this fire is big enough to hurt you'.
Well that's just it. A normal fire is completely different from Hotaru's black fire or DS's own Black Sabbath spell. Dispel Bound is supposed to work just as well against energy attacks as as reality warping ones, yet enough power has still been shown to break through it there hasn't it?
No it's not. The energy is not disappearing, it's just turned into another kind of energy. The Light Hawk Wings are energy, DS has Energy Block. There is nothing to misunderstand about that.
Except that if they're energy they're a much higher form than anything the Dispel Bound is supposed to be able to take.
And what does that have to do with Kami Tenchi? You're not saying that Lina's Ragna Blade is unbeatable just because it draws power from L-Sama, do you?
Not necessarily, but even the Choushin couldn't eradicate Z without destroying the universe in the process. Frankly I'm pretty sure Dispel Bound couldn't protect against a direct hit from the Ragna Blade either.
Because he's immune to that other power?
He's supposed to be immune to normal forms of attack too, it's not any different. Besides reality warpers on that scale can produce pure force blasts just as easily.
The only LHWs with special properties were Tenchi's LHWs with their material conversion. It was never stated or implied that Z's wings vary in any kind from the ones Juraian ships can create.
If Z were only on the level of a common Jurian ship then why the heck would Tokimi hold out so much hope for him?
Yes, it is. Currently he is fused with it, thus it is part of him now. He can also summon it whenever and wherever he wants, proving that he has a connection with it that transcends dimensions. Dark Schneider was also created to fuse with the Dragon Knight.

If you deny him the Dragon Knight, you could just as well deny him the Judas Pain.
I'm not denying it, I'm just saying he doesn't start out with it. He has to summon it first, he doesn't have to summon the Judas Pains.

[Kira-chan]

Uriel would've been done for if Beelzebub hadn't freed his Augoeides-body from the ice of Kokyutos, which Uriel could transform into new energy to repair his dying body. His fall caused the Augoeides to mutate into a Dark Augoeides and he merged with it. Being in his true form he had access to incredible amounts of energy to simply blast away Majin DS' Dispel Bound.
That's one thing I don't undertand, if Augoeides is Uriel's true power why was it trapped in Kokyutos in the first place?
However, they might have significiant cosmic powers to do so. For example, I can see Galactus squashing him fairly easy.
And now we come to the point, that cosmic beings exist in anime/manga too. Z, Haruhi and Belldandy aren't quite on the level of the Choushin, but they're only one step below. And unless you're talking about full strength Eternity level Galactus they're above him.
As for the reality warping, as I said before, it only protects DS from being warped. A being that is a reality warper can't warp DS unless it has the powerlevel to destroy the shield (re-writing is a non-issue since this requires another Dispel Bound). If said being isn't on the same power level as DS but still a reality warper of universal scale, there are other means to break DS' shields. For example, the universe around DS could be warped in such a way that 50 Million Planets the size of our sun are dropped on Majin DS. Dispel Bound good bye.
Either way, the characters I mentioned have the power to do so.

[Yak]

That's one thing I don't undertand, if Augoeides is Uriel's true power why was it trapped in Kokyutos in the first place?

And now we come to the point, that cosmic beings exist in anime/manga too. Z, Haruhi and Belldandy aren't quite on the level of the Choushin, but they're only one step below. And unless you're talking about full strength Eternity level Galactus they're above him.

Either way, the characters I mentioned have the power to do so.

That hasn't been thorougly explained but apparently the Seraphim can split from their Augoeides and take on a human form, which the Augoeides remains as a separate unity. This leads me to believe that in their human form they are much weaker than in their Augoeides.

Uriel's, Rafaels and Gabriels Augoeides have been trapped in the ice of Kokyutos for ages. I think they still were imprissoned from the second Armageddon, I believe in vol. 18 Satan explains to DS how he was able to trap three of the Seraphim and mortally wound Michael. It's also possible that if the Augoeides is destroyed, the human form of the Angel can still live on but that's to be seen once DS VS Uriel is finally concluded.

As for there being other characters with cosmic powers, I know and I never argued against that. I was only saying that the Reality Manipulation Shield from DS' Dispel Bound can't be broken with Reality Manipulation of the shield itself. It requires either vast cosmic energies or a trick to manipulate the universe around the shield in such a way that the shield is broken by force.

However, there probably aren't that many characters who are able to do that but as I said, it's not impossible. Galactus, Living Tribunal, Chousins, etc. They all are able to do it or at least might. Dragon Knight Lucifer is most likely a non issue to these people as well since some of them could literally think him out of existance or what not. Dragon Knight is mainly for the superior fire power. His strength is dependent on the strength of the soul that fuses with him. It deals destruction on a vast scale and can stand up to a Galaxy buster like Uriels Augoeides and has access to most of DS' spells or some other fancy weaponry.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Well that's just it. A normal fire is completely different from Hotaru's black fire or DS's own Black Sabbath spell. Dispel Bound is supposed to work just as well against energy attacks as as reality warping ones,

No, it's not different. Fire is fire is fire. Have you ever played an RPG? If I have immunity to fire, I have immunity to fire and that's that. Black Sabbath is a Darkness spell by the way, it doesn't draw power from Fire.

yet enough power has still been shown to break through it there hasn't it?

Because there isn't the slightest possibility that Uriel rewrote all of DS' shields by using the boost he got from the Augoeides? It was also stated that Dark Schneider was at his limit with using the Judas Pain, who knows how far his Dispel Bound regeneration dropped.

Except that if they're energy they're a much higher form than anything the Dispel Bound is supposed to be able to take.

Energy Block is still Energy Block.

Not necessarily, but even the Choushin couldn't eradicate Z without destroying the universe in the process.

Meanless statement and translations can't be taken for granted, it is also disproven by visual evidence in the anime. If Tsunami and Tokimi really striked with universe destroying force then a lot more than just a small part of the galaxy should have been destroyed.

Frankly I'm pretty sure Dispel Bound couldn't protect against a direct hit from the Ragna Blade either.

If Garv could survive it, I'm sure as hell that Dark Schneider can as well.



He's supposed to be immune to normal forms of attack too, it's not any different.

Of course he's immune to them. Uriel used his own Dispel Bound to negate these effects though. That's the whole point of a fight between Dispel Bound users.

Besides reality warpers on that scale can produce pure force blasts just as easily.

And that is what he wouldn't be immune to. The Warper can create something that he can use to attack Dark Schneider, unless DS is immune to it as well.

If Z were only on the level of a common Jurian ship then why the heck would Tokimi hold out so much hope for him?

Because he could create two more wings than even a 1st generation Juraian ship or Tsunami's 'champion'?

I'm not denying it, I'm just saying he doesn't start out with it. He has to summon it first, he doesn't have to summon the Judas Pains.

He has to transform into his Majin state though.

And now we come to the point, that cosmic beings exist in anime/manga too. Z, Haruhi and Belldandy aren't quite on the level of the Choushin, but they're only one step below. And unless you're talking about full strength Eternity level Galactus they're above him.

Haruhi only if she realized her powers (and only in the universe she created), which isn't the case. Z is not a cosmic and only unsealed Belldandy would really count as one.


Uriel's, Rafaels and Gabriels Augoeides have been trapped in the ice of Kokyutos for ages. I think they still were imprissoned from the second Armageddon, I believe in vol. 18 Satan explains to DS how he was able to trap three of the Seraphim and mortally wound Michael. It's also possible that if the Augoeides is destroyed, the human form of the Angel can still live on but that's to be seen once DS VS Uriel is finally concluded.

No, we clearly see their Augoeides when Michael and Uriel first appeared (vol. 16 & 17 respectively). When Dark Schneider was first banished into Hell we also see that the Augoeides of the Devils are frozen in Kokyutos. Dark Scheider freed them somehow though with a powerful fire spell while he was fighting Porno Diane (I think one of Devil Kings comments about the eternal ice melting).

As for there being other characters with cosmic powers, I know and I never argued against that. I was only saying that the Reality Manipulation Shield from DS' Dispel Bound can't be broken with Reality Manipulation of the shield itself. It requires either vast cosmic energies or a trick to manipulate the universe around the shield in such a way that the shield is broken by force.

I agree with that.

However, there probably aren't that many characters who are able to do that but as I said, it's not impossible. Galactus, Living Tribunal, Chousins, etc. They all are able to do it or at least might. Dragon Knight Lucifer is most likely a non issue to these people as well since some of them could literally think him out of existance or what not. Dragon Knight is mainly for the superior fire power. His strength is dependent on the strength of the soul that fuses with him. It deals destruction on a vast scale and can stand up to a Galaxy buster like Uriels Augoeides and has access to most of DS' spells or some other fancy weaponry.

Well, it really depends on how powerful the God of the Bastard!!verse is and how serious he takes the stuff about the Adam of Light and Adam of Darkness.

[Yak]

No, we clearly see their Augoeides when Michael and Uriel first appeared (vol. 16 & 17 respectively). When Dark Schneider was first banished into Hell we also see that the Augoeides of the Devils are frozen in Kokyutos. Dark Scheider freed them somehow though with a powerful fire spell while he was fighting Porno Diane (I think one of Devil Kings comments about the eternal ice melting).



Eh, true. Hm, this either means Uriel and Michael have formed "new" Augoeidi for themselves after the old ones were trapped in the ice (cause they still are there, why else would Beelze have these three feathers from which he one broke to free Uriel's.)

The other possibility is that when DS was banished to Hell, time went by much slower there as in the real world. By the time they were fighting in Hell and the locks of Hell's Gate were opened, Satan and his demons came over the earth already. Maybe Uriel, Gabriel and Michael fought the army of demons there and were captured by Satan and at the same time as DS fought they were frozen in the remaining ice of Kokyutos?

There is a real time discrepancie but I remember a translated question in the HAQ (where Hagiwara answered questions about the manga) why there was a 4 year time skip and I think Hagiwara kind of explained it with the gravity in Hell (which is the center of a black hole) the time passes much slower there while on Earth almost 4 years passed in the same time or something.

[Rice Ball]

I think any Cosmic Galactus level or above should be able to channel enough power to destroy him with little issues.

Ofc people like Haruhi, LoN, Kami Tenchi auto win.

Z is likely the same sort of level, the lighthawk wings themself should be able to hack apart the dispel bound without that meny issues due to the nature of the attack (Dividing attacks and defence by 0). DS himself is no push over and will not just take it lying down.

Characters like Vegeto would likely be overpowered with ease.

Marvel/DC wise, i'd put him Borderline cosmic/Herald level.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Z is likely the same sort of level, the lighthawk wings themself should be able to hack apart the dispel bound without that meny issues due to the nature of the attack (Dividing attacks and defence by 0). DS himself is no push over and will not just take it lying down.

Light Hawk Wings do not multiply/divide attacks and defense by 0. That is pure fanon. I even posted two links in this thread with canon information that it isn't so.

And I post them again:
http://www.rolfotto.com/101_FACTS/TENCHI_101_FACTS.html

http://www.astronerdboy.com/tenchi/Section%202/Other-Canon-FAQ.html


Eh, true. Hm, this either means Uriel and Michael have formed "new" Augoeidi for themselves after the old ones were trapped in the ice (cause they still are there, why else would Beelze have these three feathers from which he one broke to free Uriel's.)

The other possibility is that when DS was banished to Hell, time went by much slower there as in the real world. By the time they were fighting in Hell and the locks of Hell's Gate were opened, Satan and his demons came over the earth already. Maybe Uriel, Gabriel and Michael fought the army of demons there and were captured by Satan and at the same time as DS fought they were frozen in the remaining ice of Kokyutos?

The Angel Augoeidi were trapped after DS released the Devil Augoeidi from Kokyutos. It's mentioned for the first time when the Augoeides of Konron was introduced. Check the last few sentences. And Gabriel couldn't have fought the demons because she was busy being Porno Diane. Satan wasn't on Earth anyway, he's still on his way there.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/851/bastard19059vw6.th.jpg (http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bastard19059vw6.jpg)
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/359/bastard19060ls0.th.jpg (http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bastard19060ls0.jpg)

[~Shin~]

Light Hawk Wings do not multiply/divide attacks and defense by 0. That is pure fanon. I even posted two links in this thread with canon information that it isn't so.

And I post them again:
http://www.rolfotto.com/101_FACTS/TENCHI_101_FACTS.html

http://www.astronerdboy.com/tenchi/S...Canon-FAQ.html

It's already said in the first website. It says they convert the energy into harmless energy. Saying it multiplies by 0 is pretty much the same thing

Here it is:
Ko-oh-yoku is a manifestation of God's aura and not a weapon. Although apart from Tsunami, one Tree can produce only three Ko-oh-yoku, they are enough to protect the entire ship. Ko-oh-yoku does not shut the incoming energy out but converts it to harmless one (one power exists that could pierce them but it requires huge amount of energy and a very big system).

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

It's already said in the first website. It says they convert the energy into harmless energy. Saying it multiplies by 0 is pretty much the same thing

Here it is:

No, multiplying by 0 would mean that they erase the energy completely from existence. They don't do that though. It's also just speaking about energy, so other methods of attack and defense should still be possible.

The Dispel Bound is immune to all kinds of energy though unless you rewrite it with another Dispel Bound.

And from the second link that you seemingly didn't bother to read:

How powerful are the royal trees and Jurai powers in general? What are the greatest feats of power?

A single 4th- or 5th-generation ship is more than a match for any vessel that any other space-faring nation can build. 6th- and 7th-generation Royal Trees can power a colony by themselves. It takes a big power supply equal to that of a star to overwhelm a light-hawk wing.

They can be overwhelmed if more energy is used then they can convert at a time. So they are not invincible.

[Rice Ball]

Shins pretty much answered this.

It would reduce the defence of the dispel bound to nothing, covert it into harmless energy. I'll try and see if i can find that scan of how dispel bound works, you seem to have an issue.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Shins pretty much answered this.

It would reduce the defence of the dispel bound to nothing, covert it into harmless energy. I'll try and see if i can find that scan of how dispel bound works, you seem to have an issue.

How, please tell me how would they do that? The Dispel Bounds effects wouldn't allow that. The DB has a counter effect as well, so it could counter the LHWs effect.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9281/0001englf2pj9.th.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0001englf2pj9.jpg)
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1876/0002hz9er9.th.jpg (http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0002hz9er9.jpg)

They even have a freakin' effect against instant victory. The Dispel Bound is just as broken as the Light Hawk Wings, if not even more so.

[Rice Ball]

Its a shield
Like anything else with enough energy/power it can be canceled.

Sorry but those pictures appear as thumbnails to me, i'll post the correct one when i get home (unless Yakattack beats me to it)

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Its a shield
Like anything else with enough energy/power it can be canceled.

They're magic. Magic works different from normal physics. Or how else do you explain effects that can cancel immortality, detect lies and prevent instant victory? The Dispel Bound does not work like shields in shows like Enterprise or even like the force fields of Thanos.

You can't just tank them and hope they break, you have to cancel their effects first, which is only possible with another Dispel Bound. Unless you have a way of attacking that isn't covered by the effects. Hell, as random as the effects covered are, I wouldn't be surprised if they can make them up on the spot.

And yes, Uriel broke through Dark Schneider's Dispel Bound but you also have to consider:

- Uriel has a Dispel Bound as well (which can be used to rewrite another Dispel Bound)
- Dark Schneider was completely exhausted
- Uriel was freshly recharged with the energy of his Augoeides

Sorry but those pictures appear as thumbnails to me, i'll post the correct one when i get home (unless Yakattack beats me to it)

Sorry, but those are Yakattack's pics of the Dispel Bound taken directly from the Ulitmate Bastard!! Directory Thread in the Meta Battledome. And you just have to click on the thumbnails to get the large picture.

Direct links:
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0001englf2pj9.jpg
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0002hz9er9.jpg

[Kira-chan]

No, it's not different. Fire is fire is fire. Have you ever played an RPG? If I have immunity to fire, I have immunity to fire and that's that. Black Sabbath is a Darkness spell by the way, it doesn't draw power from Fire.
Not directly, but it's effect is a heat type attack.
Because there isn't the slightest possibility that Uriel rewrote all of DS' shields by using the boost he got from the Augoeides? It was also stated that Dark Schneider was at his limit with using the Judas Pain, who knows how far his Dispel Bound regeneration dropped.
Sure that's possible, but any sufficiently powerful being should be able to do the same thing.
Energy Block is still Energy Block.
The Light Hawk Wings aren't normal energy, they're something which transend all dimensions in the Tenchiverse and which even Washu level scientists can't understand.
Meanless statement and translations can't be taken for granted, it is also disproven by visual evidence in the anime. If Tsunami and Tokimi really striked with universe destroying force then a lot more than just a small part of the galaxy should have been destroyed.
I don't see how that disproves anything seeing how if Tokimi wanted to prevent the 3rd dimension from being destroyed she wouldn't have done so in a way that would have had the same effect, she's not stupid. She also pretty much agreed with Z's statement, saying that if she couldn't destroy him she'd just take Tenchi somewhere beyond his reach.
If Garv could survive it, I'm sure as hell that Dark Schneider can as well.
He survived it but it still cut through him. I never said that Dark Schneider wouldn't survive it, just that it would go through Dispel Bound.
Of course he's immune to them. Uriel used his own Dispel Bound to negate these effects though. That's the whole point of a fight between Dispel Bound users.

And that is what he wouldn't be immune to. The Warper can create something that he can use to attack Dark Schneider, unless DS is immune to it as well.
You're talking like Dispel Bound is some omnipotent power when in the end it's just a spell. A very powerful one true, but a higher power can still cancel it out.
Haruhi only if she realized her powers (and only in the universe she created), which isn't the case. Z is not a cosmic and only unsealed Belldandy would really count as one.
I am assuming a Haruhi that's aware of her power and unsealed Belldandy for this yes. As for Z yes I'd say his abilities place him on a cosmic level. Even if he's not as powerful as the Choushin he's still been shown to be able to play on their level to some extent, instantly catching up when Tokimi whisked Tenchi away, then actually going through her hand when she used it to try and block him from Z.
They're magic. Magic works different from normal physics. Or how else do you explain effects that can cancel immortality, detect lies and prevent instant victory? The Dispel Bound does not work like shields in shows like Enterprise or even like the force fields of Thanos.

You can't just tank them and hope they break, you have to cancel their effects first, which is only possible with another Dispel Bound. Unless you have a way of attacking that isn't covered by the effects. Hell, as random as the effects covered are, I wouldn't be surprised if they can make them up on the spot.

And yes, Uriel broke through Dark Schneider's Dispel Bound but you also have to consider:

- Uriel has a Dispel Bound as well (which can be used to rewrite another Dispel Bound)
- Dark Schneider was completely exhausted
- Uriel was freshly recharged with the energy of his Augoeides
And the Light Hawk Wings do work like normal physics? If the LHWs and Dispel Bound clashed it's obvious they'd work to cancel each other out, so what we have to consider here is which one is more powerful. Considering one is a spell which as far as we know doesn't go beyond Archangel level and one is the transdimensional energy of, in the words of your own FAQ, the God of the Tenchiverse itself I think it's pretty clear which would win.

[Crazykramer07]

My opinion, no one not even the goddamn batman, badass characters like him only come once a million years. He fucking wants to bang every chick in the world and kill all the men. I mean not even Mr. T can hold a candle to the Darshe. I get a hard on every time girls fucking want to scerw his brains out, that scene where he was carrying the princess on his shoulder was so damn cool.:laugh

Hmm, the only character I know of that comes close to his level of ownage is Lina Inverse and Deadpool.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Not directly, but it's effect is a heat type attack.

Still draws it's power from Darkness, as stated in the spellbook.

Sure that's possible, but any sufficiently powerful being should be able to do the same thing.

If it doesn't have it's own Dispel Bound? Not very likely, unless it's nigh-omnipotent or omnipotent.

The Light Hawk Wings aren't normal energy, they're something which transend all dimensions in the Tenchiverse and which even Washu level scientists can't understand.

And magic is normal energy that's perfectly logical in the universe?

I don't see how that disproves anything seeing how if Tokimi wanted to prevent the 3rd dimension from being destroyed she wouldn't have done so in a way that would have had the same effect, she's not stupid. She also pretty much agreed with Z's statement, saying that if she couldn't destroy him she'd just take Tenchi somewhere beyond his reach.

Did she say that she had to destroy the universe to destroy Z? And yes, if Tsunami striked with universe destroying force at Z, then Tokimi had to use the same amount of energy to stop the strike.

He survived it but it still cut through him. I never said that Dark Schneider wouldn't survive it, just that it would go through Dispel Bound.

Garv didn't have any protection though.

You're talking like Dispel Bound is some omnipotent power when in the end it's just a spell. A very powerful one true, but a higher power can still cancel it out.

WRONG. The Dispel Bound is not a spell. It's a natural part of all higher level beings like Devils, Angels and Dark Schneider with the Judas Pain. It's part of their being and their soul and not some spell that can be cast.

As for Z yes I'd say his abilities place him on a cosmic level. Even if he's not as powerful as the Choushin he's still been shown to be able to play on their level to some extent, instantly catching up when Tokimi whisked Tenchi away, then actually going through her hand when she used it to try and block him from Z.

He's powerful, I admit that but nothing beyond Herald level.

And the Light Hawk Wings do work like normal physics? If the LHWs and Dispel Bound clashed it's obvious they'd work to cancel each other out, so what we have to consider here is which one is more powerful. Considering one is a spell which as far as we know doesn't go beyond Archangel level and one is the transdimensional energy of, in the words of your own FAQ, the God of the Tenchiverse itself I think it's pretty clear which would win.

And I also pointed out that the Light Hawk Wings can be overcome with enough energy and posted a link, you just chose to ignore it. It takes the energy of a star to be exact, which is measly to an Augoeides or the Dragon Knight.

[Coaxmetal]

Miss Goldenweek with first move.

Color Trap his ass.

[Kira-chan]

Still draws it's power from Darkness, as stated in the spellbook.
I don't disagree, but that wasn't really the point.
If it doesn't have it's own Dispel Bound? Not very likely, unless it's nigh-omnipotent or omnipotent.
The effect of the LHWs is on a nigh-omnipotent level.
And magic is normal energy that's perfectly logical in the universe?
In a way, it can be understood by the people who use it.
Did she say that she had to destroy the universe to destroy Z? And yes, if Tsunami striked with universe destroying force at Z, then Tokimi had to use the same amount of energy to stop the strike.
Z said that she would have had to do so in order to destroy him, and Tokimi responded that in that case she would just take Tenchi somewhere he couldn't reach. That sounds like an affirmation to me. And yes Tokimi would have had to use at least equal power to stop Tsunami's attack, but if her purpose was to prevent the destruction of the 3rd dimension she would have used it in a way that would have mostly canceled Tsunami's out rather that causing the very thing she was trying to prevent. I don't see why she couldn't have, she is a Choushin and according to that FAQ she's actually the most powerful one.
Garv didn't have any protection though.
There's nothing in the Slayersverse that could have protected him short of L-sama herself, it's been shown that the Ragna Blade can even cut through dimensions to reach its target.
WRONG. The Dispel Bound is not a spell. It's a natural part of all higher level beings like Devils, Angels and Dark Schneider with the Judas Pain. It's part of their being and their soul and not some spell that can be cast.
All right, a magical effect for high level angels and demons then. A power above their level should still be able to cancel it out either way.
He's powerful, I admit that but nothing beyond Herald level.
Powerful enough to defeat Dark Schneider in my estimation.
And I also pointed out that the Light Hawk Wings can be overcome with enough energy and posted a link, you just chose to ignore it. It takes the energy of a star to be exact, which is measly to an Augoeides or the Dragon Knight.
That was specifially referring to what it would take to overcome a single Light Hawk Wing used by a Jurian ship. Jurian ships borrow their power from Tsunami, that much is also stated in the FAQ. So they're different from anomalies which generate them on thier own, the FAQ didn't say anywhere what it would take to get through Tenchi or Z's LHWs.

[~Shin~]

No, multiplying by 0 would mean that they erase the energy completely from existence. They don't do that though. It's also just speaking about energy, so other methods of attack and defense should still be possible.

The Dispel Bound is immune to all kinds of energy though unless you rewrite it with another Dispel Bound.

And from the second link that you seemingly didn't bother to read:



They can be overwhelmed if more energy is used then they can convert at a time. So they are not invincible.

Multiplying by 0 does not mean that the energy gets erased from existence. It merely means that the true damage of the attack is convereted into harmless energy which in turn does practically mean it's mulitiplied by 0.

I never said that they were invincible. They have already been defeated by Tenchi when he was transforming into his Kami mode. And Z doesn't only have LHW's. He's also capable of destroying multiple jurian ships with relative ease and capable of destroying planets also with relative ease. He can also teleport others and himself. He can travel ftl.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

There's nothing in the Slayersverse that could have protected him short of L-sama herself, it's been shown that the Ragna Blade can even cut through dimensions to reach its target.

But L-Sama herself had trouble with Fibrizo. How is just a little energy of her any better? And it can cut through dimensions, so what? Kuwabara in YYH could do that. Seraph Uriel could also break through dimensions with Gungnir.

All right, a magical effect for high level angels and demons then. A power above their level should still be able to cancel it out either way.

No, that is not enough. Don't you understand that the various effects have to be overcome first? It's not that hard to understand. Even Satan or Beelzebub would have to rewrite the Dispel Bound to breach the defenses of the Seraphim, even though both of them are vastly more powerful. They can just rewrite and destroy them faster than the angels can regenerate them.

Powerful enough to defeat Dark Schneider in my estimation.

And I disagree.

That was specifially referring to what it would take to overcome a single Light Hawk Wing used by a Jurian ship. Jurian ships borrow their power from Tsunami, that much is also stated in the FAQ. So they're different from anomalies which generate them on thier own, the FAQ didn't say anywhere what it would take to get through Tenchi or Z's LHWs.

They are only anomalies because they can create Light Hawk Wings on their own without an outside source. And Z's wings were never stated to have any special properties like Tenchi's. So as far as we know they are exactly the same as any Juraian ship, he just can create more of them.

Never was it stated that their wings are more durable or anything either. According to the Tenchi 101 Facts even Tsunami has to expand the same amount of energy as anyone else who wants to create a LHW.

Let's see (Amount of LHW - Energy required to create them):

1 - 1
2 - 1 + 2
3 - 1 + 2 + 4
4 - 1 + 2 + 4 + 8
5 - 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16
6 - 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32
7 - 1 + 2 +.... + 64
8 - 1 +... + 128
9 - 1 +... + 256
10 - 1 +... + 512

Each additional wing uses twice as much energy as the previous to create. So it takes Z 31 times as much energy to create 5 LHW than a single one. So it's only logical that it takes the energy of over 31 stars to breach them. Again, an Augoeides or the Dragon Knight should be capable of that.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

I never said that they were invincible. They have already been defeated by Tenchi when he was transforming into his Kami mode. And Z doesn't only have LHW's. He's also capable of destroying multiple jurian ships with relative ease and capable of destroying planets also with relative ease. He can also teleport others and himself. He can travel ftl.

When did Tenchi or Z ever destroy Juraian Ships? The ships Z destroys at the beginning of OVA 3 are not Juraian, it was never stated to which race they belong and Jurai itself only uses Tree Ships. And Galaxy Police ships look different as well.

Regular Tenchi (before the Kami power up) and Z would be annihilated if they tried to challenge the Juraian Fleet.

[~Shin~]

When did Tenchi or Z ever destroy Juraian Ships? The ships Z destroys at the beginning of OVA 3 are not Juraian, it was never stated to which race they belong and Jurai itself only uses Tree Ships. And Galaxy Police ships look different as well.

Regular Tenchi (before the Kami power up) and Z would be annihilated if they tried to challenge the Juraian Fleet.

I'll check the OVA again cuz I could've sworn that they were jurian ships

[Kira-chan]

But L-Sama herself had trouble with Fibrizo. How is just a little energy of her any better? And it can cut through dimensions, so what? Kuwabara in YYH could do that. Seraph Uriel could also break through dimensions with Gungnir.
Apparently she did in the novel version at least because she couldn't use much of her power through Lina's body. Cutting through a Mazoku Lord and completely erasing it from existence are two different things though.
No, that is not enough. Don't you understand that the various effects have to be overcome first? It's not that hard to understand. Even Satan or Beelzebub would have to rewrite the Dispel Bound to breach the defenses of the Seraphim, even though both of them are vastly more powerful. They can just rewrite and destroy them faster than the angels can regenerate them.
That's what I meant by cancel out, Light Hawk Wings or any other type of omnipotent/semi-omnipotent power would naturally have that same effect.
They are only anomalies because they can create Light Hawk Wings on their own without an outside source. And Z's wings were never stated to have any special properties like Tenchi's. So as far as we know they are exactly the same as any Juraian ship, he just can create more of them.

Never was it stated that their wings are more durable or anything either. According to the Tenchi 101 Facts even Tsunami has to expand the same amount of energy as anyone else who wants to create a LHW.

Let's see (Amount of LHW - Energy required to create them):

1 - 1
2 - 1 + 2
3 - 1 + 2 + 4
4 - 1 + 2 + 4 + 8
5 - 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16
6 - 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32
7 - 1 + 2 +.... + 64
8 - 1 +... + 128
9 - 1 +... + 256
10 - 1 +... + 512

Each additional wing uses twice as much energy as the previous to create. So it takes Z 31 times as much energy to create 5 LHW than a single one. So it's only logical that it takes the energy of over 31 stars to breach them. Again, an Augoeides or the Dragon Knight should be capable of that.
This is what Robotech Master at CBR had to say on the matter in a post from there.
Tenchi and Z's LHW's either have to be canceled out with other LHW's, or suppressed by a power equal to or greater than the Choushin, as the LHW's are essentially the energy of the goddesses materialized in the lower dimensions.

Starship LHW's used by Jurain ships and Seina's Mech are a diluted form of the LHW's passed on from Tsunami, and can be penetrated if an attack's power surpasses the amount of energy that the starship/mech is using to produce the wing. In the third novel, Washu, Washu and Naja Akara go over an incident where a group of space pirates had to use a weapon that used the power of a star to penetrate a Jurai ship's Light Hawk Wing, though Washu also found something strange in the incident that made her curious (though this seems to be a dropped/forgotten plot point). Also, weapons powered by Washu's gems (Ryo-ohki) can give Starship Light Hawk Wings trouble. Z's Light Hawk Wings blocked both Ryo-ohki and Ryoko though, so I guess Tenchi and Z's don't share that weakness.

Suffice to say, you need very specific things in order to get past Z's defenses.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Apparently she did in the novel version at least because she couldn't use much of her power through Lina's body. Cutting through a Mazoku Lord and completely erasing it from existence are two different things though.

Why fight a battle that you could lose (erasing him from existence, which gave her troubles) if you could use a way that could guarantee you a win (conjuring up a Ragna Blade and cut him to pieces). The Ragna Blade is weaker, period.

Garv wasn't even a true Mazoku at that point, he had a human body.

That's what I meant by cancel out, Light Hawk Wings or any other type of omnipotent/semi-omnipotent power would naturally have that same effect.

The LHWs are not omnipotent, just like the Ragna Blade or an AT Field isn't omnipotent. According to Bastard!! Lore all souls in existence are connected to God that means the source of the Dispel Bounds power is divine as well.

This is what Robotech Master at CBR had to say on the matter in a post from there.

And those are only assumptions. Yes, Washu's Gems can give the Light Hawk Wings trouble. But Ryoko only had one of the originals when she attacked Z. Kagato's Souja had the power of the fake Gems (the ones he created as well) and all three original Gems though. That is a massive difference.

[Cy]

What series is DS from, anyways?

Usually I would say ZeedMelleniummon wins (just blow up reality or something), but I'm not quite sure if that would work...

[Kira-chan]

Why fight a battle that you could lose (erasing him from existence, which gave her troubles) if you could use a way that could guarantee you a win (conjuring up a Ragna Blade and cut him to pieces). The Ragna Blade is weaker, period.

Garv wasn't even a true Mazoku at that point, he had a human body.
Based on that site she was just pissed that he'd attacked her and lashed out at him, not caring how much power she could channel through a human body or how long she would be able to stay in it.
The LHWs are not omnipotent, just like the Ragna Blade or an AT Field isn't omnipotent. According to Bastard!! Lore all souls in existence are connected to God that means the source of the Dispel Bounds power is divine as well.
All souls being connected to God does not mean that all souls can use God's power.
And those are only assumptions. Yes, Washu's Gems can give the Light Hawk Wings trouble. But Ryoko only had one of the originals when she attacked Z. Kagato's Souja had the power of the fake Gems (the ones he created as well) and all three original Gems though. That is a massive difference.
Ryoko in Ryo-Ohki has been shown to be able to give Jurian ships trouble as well, even with only one Gem.

[Keollyn]

What series is DS from, anyways?

Usually I would say ZeedMelleniummon wins (just blow up reality or something), but I'm not quite sure if that would work...

From the anime/manga called Bastard!! Decent anime, GREAT manga.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Based on that site she was just pissed that he'd attacked her and lashed out at him, not caring how much power she could channel through a human body or how long she would be able to stay in it.

Very well.

All souls being connected to God does not mean that all souls can use God's power.

It also means that all souls have God's power. That's why humanity was condemned in the first place since they found a way to tap the energy of the soul and thus the energy of God and abused it (the ultimate sin).

Ryoko in Ryo-Ohki has been shown to be able to give Jurian ships trouble as well, even with only one Gem.

Which one? Ayeka's ship? Nope, it couldn't use Light Hawk Wings, they were sealed away and a master key like the Tenchi-ken was needed to activate them. Ayeka doesn't have one of these though.

Yosho's Funaho? Back then Ryoko still had all three Gems and was still beaten by a single ship of Jurai and one of it's warriors.

[Cy]

From the anime/manga called Bastard!! Decent anime, GREAT manga.

I thought Bastard! had one exclamation mark and was about Guts... Or is that a different series? Are there two Bastard series?

[Kira-chan]

It also means that all souls have God's power. That's why humanity was condemned in the first place since they found a way to tap the energy of the soul and thus the energy of God and abused it (the ultimate sin).
That's not the same as the power of God in its pure state though.
Which one? Ayeka's ship? Nope, it couldn't use Light Hawk Wings, they were sealed away and a master key like the Tenchi-ken was needed to activate them. Ayeka doesn't have one of these though.

Yosho's Funaho? Back then Ryoko still had all three Gems and was still beaten by a single ship of Jurai and one of it's warriors.
She also apparently went head to head with Emperor Azuza's first generation ship back then based on the novels, and again according to Robotech Master she and Ryo-Ohki were stated by Kajishima to be able to slice through Jurian ship LHWs, but not those of Z and Tenchi. This makes sense since the ships are just drawing energy from Tsunami, not using them in their pure form.

You can read the full post here from a match I made between Ryoko and Yuki Nagato from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=4154794&postcount=37

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

That's not the same as the power of God in its pure state though.

How do you know that? Are you Kazushi Hagiwara?

She also apparently went head to head with Emperor Azuza's first generation ship back then based on the novels, and again according to Robotech Master she and Ryo-Ohki were stated by Kajishima to be able to slice through Jurian ship LHWs, but not those of Z and Tenchi. This makes sense since the ships are just drawing energy from Tsunami, not using them in their pure form.

Bah, yes she fought with Kirito (before she arrived on Jurai) but the battle itself was never described. Azusa only says to Seto that Kirito (his tree) hesitated because there was something familiar about Ryoko's energy (Tsunami recognized Washu's energies).

And no where in the novels did she cut through Light Hawk Wings. She plainly overpowered them or destroyed the ships before they could bring up their wings. She also had luck that all of the first and second generation trees were gone at that time (expect Ayeka's ship, which wasn't fully synchronized yet and not at full power).

And Yosho's Funaho is actually the strongest first generation ship, even stronger than Azusa's Kirito. They just had bad luck that the ships hesitated to attack fully.

And again, she was a lot weaker when she attacked Z. By the way, did that guy on CBR have a link to that interview with Kajishima?

[Kira-chan]

How do you know that? Are you Kazushi Hagiwara?
No, but if it was then humans would have access to omnipotent power wouldn't they?
By the way, did that guy on CBR have a link to that interview with Kajishima?
He hasn't posted one that I know of, I sent him a PM eariler about it and am still waiting for a response back.

[Kage no Yume]

I thought Bastard! had one exclamation mark and was about Guts... Or is that a different series? Are there two Bastard series?

That would be Berserk, and it doesn't have an exclamation mark.

[Cy]

Ah. No wonder I'v always been so confused... I've been mixing those up for the past 3 years.... Reppage to you.

[Keollyn]

I thought Bastard! had one exclamation mark and was about Guts... Or is that a different series? Are there two Bastard series?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1214

That pretty much answers your questions.

[Yak]

No, but if it was then humans would have access to omnipotent power wouldn't they?



Actually, this would probably be the case if the divine powers hadn't decayed from humanity with every generation. But in fact the humans were once designed to be equal to God, hence why he blew his odem into them through their nose while he created the Angels from dust only.

[The Nameless Pharaoh]

Sorry for being ignorant, but what race is DS ? Is he considered human ?

If he's human, Yagami Light or any shinigami from DN can kill him by writing his name down on the death note.

[Keollyn]

^ He'll just come back :amuse

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Actually, this would probably be the case if the divine powers hadn't decayed from humanity with every generation. But in fact the humans were once designed to be equal to God, hence why he blew his odem into them through their nose while he created the Angels from dust only.

Exactly, and as far as I have understood the Adam of Light and Adam of Darkness are born just as perfect as the humans God created first.


Sorry for being ignorant, but what race is DS ? Is he considered human ?

If he's human, Yagami Light or any shinigami from DN can kill him by writing his name down on the death note.

Lets see...

Dark Schneider once ripped his own heart out, was torn in half, an airship crashed into him and caused him to split up into several chibi-versions of himself, he was cut in half, then cut in half again and banished into hell, then he was ripped to pieces again and survived quite fine as a head only, he then regenerated and then got his head blown into tiny little bits but recovered almost instantly...

The Death Note probably wouldn't work anyway, I'm not quite sure how it works but those should cover it:

Reality warping
Instant Victory
Anti-Magic

[The Nameless Pharaoh]

Exactly, and as far as I have understood the Adam of Light and Adam of Darkness are born just as perfect as the humans God created first.




Lets see...

Dark Schneider once ripped his own heart out, was torn in half, an airship crashed into him and caused him to split up into several chibi-versions of himself, he was cut in half, then cut in half again and banished into hell, then he was ripped to pieces again and survived quite fine as a head only, he then regenerated and then got his head blown into tiny little bits but recovered almost instantly...

The Death Note probably wouldn't work anyway, I'm not quite sure how it works but those should cover it:

Reality warping
Instant Victory
Anti-Magic

Well, with the death note, Light can control DS's actions before he dies. He can also write the cause of death. He could just make DS commit suicide. And if you write someone's name on the note, they'll die no matter what powers they have.

Of course, that only works if DS is human.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Well, with the death note, Light can control DS's actions before he dies. He can also write the cause of death. He could just make DS commit suicide.

Of course, that only works if DS is human.

That would count as reality warping, which Dark Schneider is immune to. Altering his state of mind is also impossible. Sorry, try again.


And if you write someone's name on the note, they'll die no matter what powers they have.

How many people in Death Note had cosmic level powers and high level magic?

[Cy]

How about Shiki Tohno? He can see the points of death where if he stabs you there, you just die. Period. It can kill even immortals.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

How about Shiki Tohno? He can see the points of death where if he stabs you there, you just die. Period. It can kill even immortals.

Immortal in what sense? Dark Schneider could return from his whole body being destroyed. You'd also have to destroy his soul and spirit completely.

And he'd also have to pierce the Dispel Bound to even get close to DS' body.

[Rice Ball]

At later stages Shiki was able to See the death of any object, alive or dead.

Problem would be speed tho, he is fast but would once the dispel bound is 'killed' he would likely start moving too fast for Shiki to tag him.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

At later stages Shiki was able to See the death of any object, alive or dead.

Problem would be speed tho, he is fast but would once the dispel bound is 'killed' he would likely start moving too fast for Shiki to tag him.

By the way, is Shiki a human? And how do you 'kill' a Dispel Bound? There are countless shields that can be restored at lightspeed. It's not like the Dispel Bound is visible either, it's just there.

Radar-disruption
Sonicwaves
Dive
Treasure detect
Instant Victory
Power
Punch-block
Blessing-block
Trap-detector
Penicillin
Energy-block
Magic resistance
Counter
Regeneration
Mind-defense
Anti-Assimilator
Reality warping
Anti-Magic
Anti-paralysis
Danger-detection
Lie-detector
Antidote
Herbicide
Anty-gas
Intertia-control
Anti-Immortality
Error-detect
Control
Camouflage
Insecticide
Anti-creation/life

Can Shiki bypass all of these effects, even the last one?

And that's just Dark Schneider's defense, his offense has to be overcome too. The Venom spell alone is probably more than enough to take care of any organic opponent that doesn't have high-end regeneration (think current Wolverine and Hulk).

[Rice Ball]

You don't understand
It doesn't matter what its made of or how powerful it is.

If he attacks at the points of death, it will die, wither a shield, building, human or immortal god.

[Cy]

Shiki can "kill" anything. Anything he kills just ceases. He he could see a point on a dispell bound, he could "kill" it and it would just be gone- DS wouldn't be able to regenerate it. Anything he kills is gone for good and cannot be restored. If he killed DS, he would be dead- no chance of revival or anything.

Of course Shiki is a human, though. If he somehow managed to get a good shot at DS, DS would be destroyed for good and no dispell bound could ever save him. However, Shiki can't move FTL or anything so if DS knows whats coming and doesn't go easy on him, he's dead.

If Danger-Detection works the way it looks like it would work, then DS would probably get a warning or something. Nothing else defence-wise would work as the ability isn't reality bending, magic, etc. If Shiki could see the point of death on fully sated Galactus, he could one-shot him if he can gt a hit in.

[Yak]

Shiki can "kill" anything. Anything he kills just ceases. He he could see a point on a dispell bound, he could "kill" it and it would just be gone- DS wouldn't be able to regenerate it. Anything he kills is gone for good and cannot be restored. If he killed DS, he would be dead- no chance of revival or anything.

Of course Shiki is a human, though. If he somehow managed to get a good shot at DS, DS would be destroyed for good and no dispell bound could ever save him. However, Shiki can't move FTL or anything so if DS knows whats coming and doesn't go easy on him, he's dead.

If Danger-Detection works the way it looks like it would work, then DS would probably get a warning or something. Nothing else defence-wise would work as the ability isn't reality bending, magic, etc. If Shiki could see the point of death on fully sated Galactus, he could one-shot him if he can gt a hit in.

DS doesn't fuck around with opponents. He has horribly massacred someone who literally only made a 1 inch cut on his cheek. And in Majin state he is a rampaging, pissed-off monster. He won't even bother casting "Venom". He'll just punch a "Judas Priest" and cause a nuclear explosion right in Shiki's face. :/

[Cy]

If he doesn't piss around, then Shiki just dies. On the other hand, DS didn't massacre the person until after he cut his cheek, meaning that DS wasn't too serious before.

Could DS survive his dimension being destroyed? Or move when time is stopped?

[Rice Ball]

If DS is in a Majin state, Shiki's Nanaya mode will activate, he gains massive boosts to his speed/stamina/strength.

He'd be better off as a normal spell caster against him.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Shiki can "kill" anything. Anything he kills just ceases. He he could see a point on a dispell bound, he could "kill" it and it would just be gone- DS wouldn't be able to regenerate it. Anything he kills is gone for good and cannot be restored. If he killed DS, he would be dead- no chance of revival or anything.

Of course Shiki is a human, though. If he somehow managed to get a good shot at DS, DS would be destroyed for good and no dispell bound could ever save him. However, Shiki can't move FTL or anything so if DS knows whats coming and doesn't go easy on him, he's dead.

If Danger-Detection works the way it looks like it would work, then DS would probably get a warning or something. Nothing else defence-wise would work as the ability isn't reality bending, magic, etc. If Shiki could see the point of death on fully sated Galactus, he could one-shot him if he can gt a hit in.

That sounds really broken... would probably fall under the effect that prevents Instant Victory. What series is this Shiki guy from?


If he doesn't piss around, then Shiki just dies. On the other hand, DS didn't massacre the person until after he cut his cheek, meaning that DS wasn't too serious before.

Could DS survive his dimension being destroyed? Or move when time is stopped?

He could just change dimensions and time stops didn't even affect the lowest class of angels, Dark Schneider would laugh at that.

If DS is in a Majin state, Shiki's Nanaya mode will activate, he gains massive boosts to his speed/stamina/strength.

A massive enough boost that he can go beyond the speed of light and survive attacks powerful enough to break through dimensions? Even in normal mode Dark Schneider could move faster than the Seraphim could see and they were stated by the author when he first introduced them to move at lightspeed.

[Rice Ball]

What series is this Shiki guy from?

How old are you.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

How old are you.

Twenty. 10chars


Who the heck neg-repped me for saying the Death Note wouldn't work on Dark Schneider? At least leave your name.

[Kira-chan]

Actually, this would probably be the case if the divine powers hadn't decayed from humanity with every generation. But in fact the humans were once designed to be equal to God, hence why he blew his odem into them through their nose while he created the Angels from dust only.
That would mean that it has diluted over time, and that angels and demons don't have it at all...
You don't understand
It doesn't matter what its made of or how powerful it is.

If he attacks at the points of death, it will die, wither a shield, building, human or immortal god.
Wait a minute, didn't Arcueid survive it once?
That sounds really broken... would probably fall under the effect that prevents Instant Victory. What series is this Shiki guy from?
He's from Tsukihime: Lunar Legend.
Who the heck neg-repped me for saying the Death Note wouldn't work on Dark Schneider? At least leave your name.
Wasn't me. I don't know about about Shiki, but I'm pretty sure the Death Note wouldn't stop DS. Plus I'd love to see him kill Light slowly... :amuse

[Rice Ball]

Wait a minute, didn't Arcueid survive it once?

He cut her along her lines, he didn't go for the points themselfs. Because he at that time couldn't kill none living things, he just carved her up :)

[Cy]

At DS's power, I'm not even sure if Shiki would be able to see his point of death... But yeah, its probably one of the most broken abilities in all of anime and manga. Even still, as Shiki would have trouble hitting DS with it and stuff, I doubt it would really count as instant victory...

As for the dimension and time stuff, I was wondering if reality breakers would be able to beat DS. I guess not.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

At DS's power, I'm not even sure if Shiki would be able to see his point of death... But yeah, its probably one of the most broken abilities in all of anime and manga.

I think Hagiwara (the mangaka of Bastard!!) once stated that he made Dark Schneider solely to win in versus matches...

[Kage no Yume]

Shiki can "kill" anything. Anything he kills just ceases. He he could see a point on a dispell bound, he could "kill" it and it would just be gone- DS wouldn't be able to regenerate it. Anything he kills is gone for good and cannot be restored. If he killed DS, he would be dead- no chance of revival or anything.

Of course Shiki is a human, though. If he somehow managed to get a good shot at DS, DS would be destroyed for good and no dispell bound could ever save him. However, Shiki can't move FTL or anything so if DS knows whats coming and doesn't go easy on him, he's dead.

If Danger-Detection works the way it looks like it would work, then DS would probably get a warning or something. Nothing else defence-wise would work as the ability isn't reality bending, magic, etc. If Shiki could see the point of death on fully sated Galactus, he could one-shot him if he can gt a hit in.

There are a few problems with this skill when going against DS:

1. Spellbound isn't a single thing. It's made up of countless (not sure on the exact number, but I've heard Z~K mentioning Uriel's being above tens of thousands, making DS's even higher) layers of shields. As these shields are not regenerated in the usual sense, but are simply recast at DS's fighting speed (as one might recast protect/shell/reflect if it's dispelled), the gone for good thing shouldn't matter.

2. The shield preventing instant wins should be able to prevent Shiki's instant kill attack. Instant kill = instant victory right? If not, then the shield that allows inertia-control would allow DS to simply stop Shiki before he can make a single cut.

3. As strong as this Nanaya mode might be, Majin DS would outspeed and outpower him. Even the lowest estimates put him above the speed of sound, and the destruction his punch can deliver surpasses that of a nuclear explosion.

4. Dark Schneider can only be killed if his three eternal atoms are destroyed. Only one of these atoms lies in the physical world. Because Shiki does not have the power to cross over into the realm of the spirit or ideal, he shouldn't be able to strike at the other two atoms. In this case Dark Schneider's death points might not even appear before Shiki's eyes, as true destruction requires more than piercing DS's physical body.

[Kira-chan]

He hasn't posted one that I know of, I sent him a PM eariler about it and am still waiting for a response back.
All right I've got some responses back from him now.

This was to my question about the LHWs being able to be overcome by power equal to a star...

What "power supply equal to that of a star" is referring to is an event in the Third True Novel, "Washu," in which Washu and Naja Akara study an perplexing event in which a group of space pirates destroyed a royal ship using a Dyson Sphere type weapon. The Sphere contained within it a star, and used that star to power the weapon used to destroy the royal ship. However, Washu studied the video over and over again, and found that there was no evidence (in fact, contradictory evidence) that the entire power output of the station had been put into that beam, and furthermore, both she and Naja agree that it was a freak of nature that the Light Hawk Wings could be broken through. Washu studies the video one more time, and notices something strange--something almost indescribable which Naja Akara claims she cannot see. Only Washu can see it. Washu then asks Naja "Tell me, what happens when one Light Hawk Wing Strikes another," to which Naja replied "I don't know, we have no record of anything of the sort happening."

The implication here is that there was some other power at work, something that probably has a connection to the same type of Choshin-power found in things like the Jurai seeds or Washu's gems, since only Washu, as a Choshin, could see it.

Kajishima never elaborated on what this was aside from implications. In the 101 Questions guidebook, Kajishima said that there was one "system" in the universe which could penetrate Light Hawk Wings, but that it was a very special system which required a very large power source and materials. It's pretty obvious that whatever "system" this is, he's referring to the one the pirates used in that incident. The system works on far more than just "the power of a star;" it also relies on some kind of Choshin energy. The most likely scenario is that it is a system recovered from the Precursor Civilization, which had weaponized Choshin energy thanks to Washu giving them free reign over gems for a long time. This was never confirmed, but is the most likely scenario.

This weakness more than likely extends only to the ships. I believe the Star-powered system cut through the Light Hawk Wings in the same manner that Ryoko and Ryo-ohki's weapons sliced through first generation ship Light Hawk Wings--they were a natural kryptonite, but since this weakness didn't carry over to Z's and Tenchi's wings (Z clearly blocked a shot from Ryo-ohki and the wing was still up afterwards), I doubt this would either. Jurai starships still have to produce a large amount of quantifiable energy to be able to produce thier LHW, whereas Tenchi and Z's power isn't quantifiable, and is an anomaly.

And this was to my next question when I asked for a source for Ryoko being able to penetrate Light Hawk Wings and about her only having one Gem when she attacked Z...

Novel 1: "Jurai." Ryo-ohki battles with Emperor Azusa's first generation Jurai Tree Ship and Azusa finds that his Light Hawk Wings cannot defend against her energy. The battle between the two of them rips a hole in the space/time continuum and Azusa is subsequently defeated by the combined might of Ryoko/Ryo-ohki and Kagato/Souja. Tsunami arrives, fixes the hole in space, and teleports Azusa safely to planet Earth, where he meets Yosho's future mother Funaho.

Ryo-ohki's ability to slice through LHW's is contingent on the fact that Ryo-ohki's power system, like the Souja's, is a psuedo-gem system that is capable of linking with the actual gems (hence why Kagato said Souja could use the gems after Ryoko lost consciousness). The fact that the gems use a power similar to that of the Jurai royal seeds is why they can break through the wings. It has nothing to do with power output. Although Ryoko had all 3 gems at the time, Kajishima noted that Ryoko was far too immature back then to use thier power effectively. If she had been anywhere close to drawing out their true power, Yosho never would have beaten her.

I don't think the number of gems Ryoko had on her had anything to do with her being unable to affect Z's defenses. Kajishima went on record as stating that Ryoko at her strongest would only be able to match Tsunami-fune in power, but not Tsunami-kami-sama, and that she wouldn't have the same powers as Tenchi and Z. Meanwhile, mortal Washu with her gems unconsciously generated Light Hawk Wings while aboard a ship to defend herself from an attack, so I don't think Ryoko has the ability to draw out the full Choshin power of the gems like Washu can (as it was originally her power anyway). Ryoko and Ryo-ohki draw their power from the gems, and Tree Ships draw their LHW's from a connection to Tsunami-fune through subspace, whereas Tenchi and Z are anomalies--they were granted the ability to use Choshin power without the Choshin's blessing, and their power with LHW's goes far beyond anything that tree ships or Ryoko at full power would ever be able to do. In other words it would be like a dilluted, hand-me-down form of the power going up against the real deal.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

All right I've got some responses back from him now.

This was to my question about the LHWs being able to be overcome by power equal to a star...



And this was to my next question when I asked for a source for Ryoko being able to penetrate Light Hawk Wings and about her only having one Gem when she attacked Z...

Always 'Kajishima states', 'Kajishima noted', Kajishima went on'... etc. along with a lot of speculation. Did he still not give a source for that supposed interview? I would really like to read it myself and draw my own conclusions from it. That guy can write as much as he wants but if he doesn't give us a source for his information then it's all just theories and nothing more.

[Kira-chan]

Always 'Kajishima states', 'Kajishima noted', Kajishima went on'... etc. along with a lot of speculation. Did he still not give a source for that supposed interview? I would really like to read it myself and draw my own conclusions from it. That guy can write as much as he wants but if he doesn't give us a source for his information then it's all just theories and nothing more.
All right, I've PMed him back asking for a more specific source.

[Keollyn]

So what's the rundown so far? Who can/cannot beat him?

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

So what's the rundown so far? Who can/cannot beat him?

:sweatdrop I think we're still by nigh-omnipotents/omnipotents and the Adam of Light. And of course several of Marvel and DC's high level Cosmics (at least I think).

[Kira-chan]

:sweatdrop I think we're still by nigh-omnipotents/omnipotents and the Adam of Light. And of course several of Marvel and DC's high level Cosmics (at least I think).
Well for anime I guess we said anyone at or above Unsealed Balldandy's or an aware of her powers Haruhi Suzumiya's level could do it (possibly Z as well), for Marvel I guess you'd have to be at least the class of normal level Galactus, a Celestial or full potential Franklin Richards, and for DC at least normal level Spectre, Zero Hour Parallax or Anti-Monitor class.

[Vicious]

Lucemon(Falldown Mode) might beable to take him down.imo

[Bolt Crank]

Who can/cannot beat Dark Schneider?
Sun Wukong AKA The Monkey King

[Rice Ball]

So what's the rundown so far? Who can/cannot beat him?

debate is still raging

[~Shin~]

What about SoK?

He has a gun and his bullets don't miss and one hit from him can kill anything. I think he's even killed a god before

[Rice Ball]

Thanos of Titan could kill him :)

[Masaki]

What about Yuria (I think that's her name) from 666 Satan? When she transforms into her demon form, she's able to warp into another dimension, reappear at will, grab something, and take it back with her?

Or is Dark Shneider immune to this?

[Kira-chan]

All right, I've PMed him back asking for a more specific source.
Sorry, but this was all I was able to get...

Ryoko/Ryo-ohki counter to Light Hawk Wings: Novel 1. I'm afraid I can't give you anything more than that. There's no effective way for you to get a physical copy since its in Japan only.

Some of Kajishima's comments as well as other people's comments about the canon (and random facts like the fact that Mihoshi will lose her memory if her hair is let down) are discussed in the Tenchi Muyo 101 Questions source book. This too is only in Japan, though a translation of it exists somewhere on the Internet in English.

Other things Kajishima said were found in his personal mangas (Doujinshi). This Doujinshi basically just expand on a bunch of things from his Tenchi Muyo Universe. Again, you're pretty SOL on this front as I don't remember where I read a translated overview of their contents (hell, I don't think I even kept up with any recent ones he might have published)

The limits of Ryoko's power with all 3 gems was discussed by Kajishima in an interview--I'm not aware if Kajishima physically printed it down, but according to the translation of the interview that is what he said--and I wouldn't necessarily doubt the validity of that translation, since most die-hard fans would *want* Ryoko to be uber powerful if they had the choice. Again, I lack any link to any website that hosts the translation of this interview.

Sorry.

[Kage no Yume]

What about SoK?

He has a gun and his bullets don't miss and one hit from him can kill anything. I think he's even killed a god before

Dark Schneider has a shield that bans instant wins.

And the "god" SoK killed was the pale shadow of an imitation of a divine being.


Thanos of Titan could kill him :)

If Thanos had prep-time he probably could. If he had the Infinity Gauntlet/HotU he definitely could. Otherwise, DS should be able to take him down.


What about Yuria (I think that's her name) from 666 Satan? When she transforms into her demon form, she's able to warp into another dimension, reappear at will, grab something, and take it back with her?

Or is Dark Shneider immune to this?

I'm pretty sure DS can deal with traveling across dimensions and such. He did break out of Hell after all (a dimensional prison), and even sealed one of his enemies into another dimension with his magic.

If not, then the anti-reality warping shield should be able to prevent Lucifuge's attack. Either that or DS's will alone as Kaito's willpower and his lover for Yuria broke through Lucifuge's dimension

[~Shin~]

Dark Schneider has a shield that bans instant wins.

And the "god" SoK killed was the pale shadow of an imitation of a divine being.



How does this shield work? Any scans?

[Kage no Yume]

How does this shield work? Any scans?

Here: http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=5612724&postcount=12

[BRANCHEAD33]

SUPERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

SUPERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not even in your dreams.

[Kira-chan]

Dark Schneider has a shield that bans instant wins.

And the "god" SoK killed was the pale shadow of an imitation of a divine being.
He was also only supposed to be all powerful while sitting on his Throne of Eternity, the Saint admitted that he wouldn't be able to kill him if he was.

[Rice Ball]

If Thanos had prep-time he probably could. If he had the Infinity Gauntlet/HotU he definitely could. Otherwise, DS should be able to take him down.

And just how is he going to do this :)

[UchihaCurse]

what about Superman Prime?

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

And just how is he going to do this :)

He points at Thanos and says 'Venom' (with a simple spell like Venom, even pointing should be enough). Then he watches how Thanos is turned to dust. Unless Thanos has regeneration on par with Hulk.

what about Superman Prime?

We don't really know the extent of Superman Prime's powers.

Punch-block
Energy-block
Reality warping

But these should cover anything he might have.

[Kira-chan]

Could Dr. Strange defeat him without time to prepare?

[~Shin~]

Could Dr. Strange defeat him without time to prepare?

Yes. He can combine with Eternity and utterly own DS

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Yes. He can combine with Eternity and utterly own DS

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eternity8pr.jpg

They don't combine all that fast though. DS could blitz him before that eye even got attached to Strange's forehead.

[Kira-chan]

Yes. He can combine with Eternity and utterly own DS
He can do this without prep time?

[~Shin~]

Forget what I said. I misread your post and thought it was Strange with preptime.

[Kira-chan]

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eternity8pr.jpg

They don't combine all that fast though. DS could blitz him before that eye even got attached to Strange's forehead.
I see, kind of like the Giga Slave for Lina Inverse then.

Eternity/Strange vs. L-sama/Lina would be an awesome fight...

[~Shin~]

I see, kind of like the Giga Slave for Lina Inverse then.

Eternity/Strange vs. L-sama/Lina would be an awesome fight...

Not really. L-sama is a true omnipotent while on the other hand Eternity is only nigh omnipotent

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Not really. L-sama is a true omnipotent while on the other hand Eternity is only nigh omnipotent

She's not omnipotent...

"I chanted a Giga Slave --- and I lost control of it at all. I didn't know what would happen when I lost control of the spell --- and, Hellmaster didn't know, either. --- I lost the control of the spell --- and finally, the Lord of Nightmares possessed my body, I guess."
When I spoke the name of the Lord of Nightmares, Xelloss frowned, but I continued.

"During my body was possessed, my mind was united or swallowed by IT --- oh, I remembered what had happened, but I'm not sure about my mind situtation. Anyway, there was a problem. Hellmaster didn't know that IT had united with me, and attacked IT and me. That made IT angry, and IT attacked back. Fibrizo had thought that IT had been his friend, but he had attacked IT by mistake. Being attacked back by IT, Fibrizo was in panic, and he resisted against IT with all his strength."

--- Hellmaster's critical mistake was that he had thought that IT was his friend. Therefore, he was surprised being attacked, and resisted. It's natural for anyone to think that IT is close to the Mazoku, because IT is described with the words like "the Emptiness" or "the Chaos". However, as Fibrizo said, if both the Mazoku, the tribe that hope for the destruction, and us, the being who hope to live on, were born from the same thing --- The thing is the king of the Mazoku, and our king at the same time.

... Oh, yes... When someone attacked such a thing by mistake, he would be attacked back....
"Being resisted," I continued. "IT got angry and tried hard to destroy Fibrizo. ... And after that, the happenings were beyond my comprehension, and I didn't know what was going on, but I guess... --- Probably, IT had to be overwhelmingly powerful than Fibrizo, but, as IT possessed my body and channeled its power through me, IT couldn't use its power at its will. Ignoring how much power IT could use in one time, IT kept on attacking Fibrizo passionately ---" I opened my hands before my chest. "At last, both of them ate up each other until they lost their power."
IT lost a lot of power and IT couldn't possess my body anymore.
At that moment ---
IT lost the temporary body to exist in this universe, and went back to the ordinary situation --- the emptiness or the chaos."

[Kira-chan]

Not really. L-sama is a true omnipotent while on the other hand Eternity is only nigh omnipotent
Doesn't mean it wouldn't be awesome, L-sama/Lina vs. Phibrizo is one of my favorite anime moments.

Yuki Nagato from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya might be able to get through Dispel Bound. She's capable of hacking "data" (which basically extends to all reality for her) and rewriting it at high speed, so she should be able to rewrite DS's shields.
She's not omnipotent...
If we go by the anime version though she doesn't have those limitations.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Yuki Nagato from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya might be able to get through Dispel Bound. She's capable of hacking "data" (which basically extends to all reality for her) and rewriting it at high speed, so she should be able to rewrite DS's shields.

What should stop DS from blasting her?

If we go by the anime version though she doesn't have those limitations.

She still has limitations though, we already went through that. She's limited to only being chaos and she can't destroy the universes she created unless summoned into them. Omnipotents don't tend to have limits.

[Kira-chan]

What should stop DS from blasting her?
Well he could, but considering she's a data construct herself it's difficult to get rid of her completely. She can recover from just about any level of damage, and even if she's completely obliterated the Data Entity could just reform her.
She still has limitations though, we already went through that. She's limited to only being chaos and she can't destroy the universes she created unless summoned into them. Omnipotents don't tend to have limits.
It's debatable how much of that extends to the anime version though, in that she was portrayed a lot more like a true omnipotent with the ability to reason and make decisions (she's "capricious" as Xellos put it). In any case I'd still put any version of L-sama above Eternity, the source which universes are born from > the embodiment of one universe.

[Keollyn]

Isn't Eternity only one-third an aspect of the universe. Isn't see like the "necessity?"... and also representing only time? (and her twin representing space)

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Well he could, but considering she's a data construct herself it's difficult to get rid of her completely. She can recover from just about any level of damage, and even if she's completely obliterated the Data Entity could just reform her.

One Judas Priest should be enough. It destroys all the atoms of the target. And where was that with the Data Entity ever mentioned? It's been ages since I've seen the anime.



It's debatable how much of that extends to the anime version though, in that she was portrayed a lot more like a true omnipotent with the ability to reason and make decisions (she's "capricious" as Xellos put it). In any case I'd still put any version of L-sama above Eternity, the source which universes are born from > the embodiment of one universe.

The Eternity of each universe is just an M-body of Multi-Eternity, the embodiment of the multiverse.

[Kira-chan]

One Judas Priest should be enough. It destroys all the atoms of the target. And where was that with the Data Entity ever mentioned? It's been ages since I've seen the anime.
I'm not sure, but considering she's just a construct formed by the Data Entity to interact with the physical world in the first place reforming her shouldn't be a problem.
The Eternity of each universe is just an M-body of Multi-Eternity, the embodiment of the multiverse.
Can you show me a scan of this? Either way the version that Dr. Strange merged with seems to be only the unversal one, same with the one who Infinity Gauntlet Thanos fought.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

I'm not sure, but considering she's just a construct formed by the Data Entity to interact with the physical world in the first place reforming her shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, but if she's completely destroyed maybe the Data Entity would think she wasn't capable of doing her job and create a replacement that is better suited than her.

Can you show me a scan of this? Either way the version that Dr. Strange merged with seems to be only the unversal one, same with the one who Infinity Gauntlet Thanos fought.

Best I could find in such a short time...
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5265/multieternity16doqw1.jpg

[Kira-chan]

Best I could find in such a short time...
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5265/multieternity16doqw1.jpg
Thanks, that doesn't really say anything about the universal Eternity being an M-body though.

[Rice Ball]

He points at Thanos and says 'Venom' (with a simple spell like Venom, even pointing should be enough). Then he watches how Thanos is turned to dust. Unless Thanos has regeneration on par with Hulk.

So this venom ability ignore durability/shields?
By the spells description, anyone whos strong enough to resist it would be uneffected.

[Keollyn]

Venom has a short range, needs to be aimed at the person, and doesn't seem to be a spell he can cast while moving.

Unless, DS has improved over these limitations later...

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

So this venom ability ignore durability/shields?
By the spells description, anyone whos strong enough to resist it would be uneffected.

How can you resist having demonic enzyms from another dimension screw up your cell growth and turn the cells to dust?

Venom has a short range, needs to be aimed at the person, and doesn't seem to be a spell he can cast while moving.

Unless, DS has improved over these limitations later...

Dark Schneider doesn't even use incantations anymore. He only shouts the the names of his stronger spells like Halloween or Judas Priest. DS is beyond mortal magic now, 'casting' spells is as natural as breathing or moving to him.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1614/046qu2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Rice Ball]

How can you resist having demonic enzyms from another dimension screw up your cell growth and turn the cells to dust?


If your body is strong enough to resists it.

Can DS use this attack to kill Galactus? I thought not, same reason as he would have trouble killing Thanos with it. Read Thanos quest, look at the pictures of the diamentions fucking him up., one of them melted most of his flesh off.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

If your body is strong enough to resists it.

Can DS use this attack to kill Galactus? I thought not, same reason as he would have trouble killing Thanos with it. Read Thanos quest, look at the pictures of the diamentions fucking him up., one of them melted most of his flesh off.

It works on everything that is organic. Galactus is not organic though. Thanos is, clearly proven when Drax ripped his heart out. And we don't know how fast he traversed these dimensions or if regenerated from having his flesh melt off (the 'melt off' effect could have simply been replaced by the effects of one of the other dimensions).

[Keollyn]

Dark Schneider doesn't even use incantations anymore. He only shouts the the names of his stronger spells like Halloween or Judas Priest. DS is beyond mortal magic now, 'casting' spells is as natural as breathing or moving to him.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1614/046qu2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I know DS doesn't need to chant anymore, but that doesn't mean he needs to stop aiming, the range increases and/or he does it while in motion.

I'm not worried about what it's description is, it's shown to be short in range.

[Orion]

It works on everything that is organic. Galactus is not organic though. Thanos is, clearly proven when Drax ripped his heart out. And we don't know how fast he traversed these dimensions or if regenerated from having his flesh melt off (the 'melt off' effect could have simply been replaced by the effects of one of the other dimensions).

From thanos comment when he got melted/whatever it was,suggests he regenerated or put his cells back together himself,and i wouldnt say thanos is organic anymore,hes with death now:).

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

I know DS doesn't need to chant anymore, but that doesn't mean he needs to stop aiming, the range increases and/or he does it while in motion.

I'm not worried about what it's description is, it's shown to be short in range.

The last time he used it was against Kal-Su over 10 volumes ago. Before he came to hell he needed to stand still for almost all his spells, now he's doing it while fighting at lightspeed.

The power and range of all his spells increased. And that Halloween spell, he didn't point that. He shouted it.


From thanos comment when he got melted/whatever it was,suggests he regenerated or put his cells back together himself,and i wouldnt say thanos is organic anymore,hes with death now:).

Do we have any feats from the current Thanos? Thought not, thus he's unusable in versus matches.

[Keollyn]

Why do you keep mentioning Helloween? They're not the same spell, so one can't assume it's done the same way. Regardless, unless there's a scan out there showing Venom's new range, it still stands as a short ranged spell (don't see why it's an issue though. An overpowered spell like that has to have a drawback)

[Orion]

The last time he used it was against Kal-Su over 10 volumes ago. Before he came to hell he needed to stand still for almost all his spells, now he's doing it while fighting at lightspeed.

The power and range of all his spells increased. And that Halloween spell, he didn't point that. He shouted it.




Do we have any feats from the current Thanos? Thought not, thus he's unusable in versus matches.

Who said I was trying to even use him?I was merely pointing out hes not organic anymore.

[Rice Ball]

It works on everything that is organic. Galactus is not organic though. Thanos is, clearly proven when Drax ripped his heart out. And we don't know how fast he traversed these dimensions or if regenerated from having his flesh melt off (the 'melt off' effect could have simply been replaced by the effects of one of the other dimensions).

Organic, it might work on humans but Thanos is no human, nor is he as weak as any target that spell has had.
Can you prove it would effect a being of high durability.

edit- seems i didn't post it lol.
Please post scans of vemon in action against a being as durable/alien/technolically advanced as Thanos. I'll allow one for each of those.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Why do you keep mentioning Helloween? They're not the same spell, so one can't assume it's done the same way. Regardless, unless there's a scan out there showing Venom's new range, it still stands as a short ranged spell (don't see why it's an issue though. An overpowered spell like that has to have a drawback)

Yeah... just like overpowered spells like Judas Priest where he destroys all your atoms. He didn't even look at Uriel while using it on him. Pretty much all his spells have improved but his trademark spell Venom that he invented himself still is as powerful as it was before? Are you kidding me?

[Keollyn]

Yeah... just like overpowered spells like Judas Priest where he destroys all your atoms. He didn't even look at Uriel while using it on him. Pretty much all his spells have improved but his trademark spell Venom that he invented himself still is as powerful as it was before? Are you kidding me?

God! For one, I'm not even past the Anthrax arc, so your snarks aren't needed.

And as I said, it DOESN'T matter what other move you mention, unless Venom has shown to have the same range as the other, you cannot assume. It's like saying Goku's strongest attack, Genki Dama, can travel as far as his Kameha, when it's never shown to.

[Keollyn]

Meh... I don't care about Venom. Anyway, I feel like throwing in a few can/cannot. Just one thing.

What's the rundown on DS upper in all categories? (Ex. Strength: Can punch out a star)

Strength:
Speed:
Durability:
Endurance:
Special abilities:
Other:

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Strength: We never really get any strength feats, but he once stopped Konron's Dead Obituary with a single finger while looking bored. This attack (a punch actually) was stated to be as powerful as a nuclear warhead.

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=5758273&postcount=29



Speed: Seraphs were stated to move at lightspeed (by the author in their description). Dark Schneider moved faster than they could see (in his regular human form even).



Durability/Endurance:
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=5754400&postcount=28

He was also once sucked into an artificial black hole that was stated to have several thousand G. That was in volume 6 before any major powerups.



Special abilities: Dispel Bound, he is immune/can absorb everything that has to do with heat or fire (once absorbed a fire attack equal to a super nova in a matter of seconds), can absorb evil/dark energy (did that when he transformed into a Majin).



Other: he's really perverted, flirts and gropes hot women, has a huge dick (don't ask), has the tendency to pull clothes out of nowhere

[Keollyn]

Well in strength, you can just account attack power there. Like what's his strongest attack (strength just sounds better than attack power).

Artificial black hole? You mean what the Lich opened up? And who stated it was several G? Because I'm not seeing it in the volume. And also, didn't Arshes and DS's swords protect them with a barrier?

[Keollyn]

Well, let's see.

Can
Yuri Hyuga

Cannot
Burori
RahXephon
Kazuki Shikimori (but he'd make a great apprentice. He already has world-level magic abilities and is loved by alot of girls)
Gabriel (aka Indalecio)

Stalemate
Ryo in Shiroi Kikoutei w/o virtue

Undecided
The -Contact-

[Masaki]

Shikamaru with preptime. ...He's taken down immortals before. Yeah, I'm joking.

Seth: Yuri? Sure, he's strong but hardly on this guy's level after all I've heard. Even in his Amon form, it took him a little while to take down an airship. Plus he's screwed if he messes up a Judgement Ring.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Well in strength, you can just account attack power there. Like what's his strongest attack (strength just sounds better than attack power).

That's a really hard question. Probably Judas Priest from the sheer level of destruction (at least on the person/object it is used on, having all your atoms destroyed is bad for your health). Blast damage on the other hand probably Halloween or Black Sabbath (but he promised Yoko not to use it again).

On the other hand, if he can absorb the power of a super nova then he could probably dish it out as well. The complete Judas Pain was stated to be able to wipe out a galaxy with it's power (by Raphael) but DS only got 7 of 8 pieces.

He's really hard to quantify in that regard. In Dragon Knight mode he should be beyond galaxy busting though. High level Augoeides (like Uriels) were stated to have the power of a quasar in their description and some quasars have an energy output larger than that of several galaxies. And Dragon Knight DS is currently duking it out with one.

Artificial black hole? You mean what the Lich opened up? And who stated it was several G? Because I'm not seeing it in the volume. And also, didn't Arshes and DS's swords protect them with a barrier?

The spellbook in volume 8 and I got it slightly wrong, it says several ten thousand G. And their swords protected them from the harsh environment of the other dimension (remember they lost them previously when they fought each other). DS and Arshes found Efreet and Nue in the other dimension though. So they weren't protected while they were sucked in.

[Keollyn]

Shikamaru with preptime. ...He's taken down immortals before. Yeah, I'm joking.

Seth: Yuri? Sure, he's strong but hardly on this guy's level after all I've heard. Even in his Amon form, it took him a little while to take down an airship. Plus he's screwed if he messes up a Judgement Ring.

That's Amon with a limiter on and tainted by the Mistletoe. Remember that Albert removes his limiter later on in the game. And he wasn't even trying to destroy the airship.

Besides, that doesn't take away the fact that he beat Meta-God in Shadow Hearts 1.

[Masaki]

That's Amon with a limiter on and tainted by the Mistletoe. Remember that Albert removes his limiter later on in the game. And he wasn't even trying to destroy the airship.

Besides, that doesn't take away the fact that he beat Meta-God in Shadow Hearts 1.

Ah, in that case...

Well, he didn't as much beat it as he did fuse with it. Anyway, as strong as his strongest fusions are, I highly doubt he's a match for DS. I haven't read the manga, but from what I hear...

[Keollyn]

Ah, in that case...

Well, he didn't as much beat it as he did fuse with it. Anyway, as strong as his strongest fusions are, I highly doubt he's a match for DS. I haven't read the manga, but from what I hear...

He didn't fuse with Meta-God. Meta God was the alien organism that was going to come down and destroy the world. He lived on the edge of the universe and traveled 4,800,000 lightyears in several days to fight the party.

Yuri and co. beat him (and storyline wise, the only ones that could have really put up a fight would be Yuri, Alice and MAYBE Halley. So, I always attest it to being more Yuri than anyone else... and limited Amon was his highest storyline power)

Well, fortunately, no one said game descriptions are ommissible. Limiter removed Amon can destroy the world with a stray thought... Seraphic Radiance is above him in power. And since Seraphic Radiance is regarded as one of the strongest deities in the SHverse, Meta God's feats/establishment is EASILY his.

[Kira-chan]

That's a really hard question. Probably Judas Priest from the sheer level of destruction (at least on the person/object it is used on, having all your atoms destroyed is bad for your health). Blast damage on the other hand probably Halloween or Black Sabbath (but he promised Yoko not to use it again).
Wasn't it said somewhere that Black Sabbath could destroy the world?

[Keollyn]

Wasn't it said somewhere that Black Sabbath could destroy the world?

Yep

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7640/spell9qp2.jpg

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Wasn't it said somewhere that Black Sabbath could destroy the world?

Yeah in the spellbook of volume 8 that was stated as the reason why it was sealed away in the past even in High Ancient Magic. Since it's Darkness magic DS should be able to pump a lot more energy into it. Damn, I really wish I had that new databook that was released... I wouldn't understand a single word... but still...

[Bolt Crank]

Can beat him...

Spawn
Galactus
The Spectre
Tokimi
Tsunami
Washu Habuki
Jedah Dohma
Yuki Nagato
Mokona
Lucifer Morningstar

[Masaki]

He didn't fuse with Meta-God. Meta God was the alien organism that was going to come down and destroy the world. He lived on the edge of the universe and traveled 4,800,000 lightyears in several days to fight the party.

Yuri and co. beat him (and storyline wise, the only ones that could have really put up a fight would be Yuri, Alice and MAYBE Halley. So, I always attest it to being more Yuri than anyone else... and limited Amon was his highest storyline power)

Well, fortunately, no one said game descriptions are ommissible. Limiter removed Amon can destroy the world with a stray thought... Seraphic Radiance is above him in power. And since Seraphic Radiance is regarded as one of the strongest deities in the SHverse, Meta God's feats/establishment is EASILY his.

Ah yes, I remember now.

Anyway, just because they were strong in their own verse doesn't mean they were so powerful compared to other series.

And I'm sure DS can travel much faster than that and woulda taken down Yuri and co easily.

[~Shin~]

Can beat him...

Spawn
Galactus
The Spectre
Tokimi
Tsunami
Washu Habuki
Jedah Dohma
Yuki Nagato
Mokona
Lucifer Morningstar

Not every Spawn can beat DS. Only the 4th Age can beat him

[Keollyn]

Anyway, just because they were strong in their own verse doesn't mean they were so powerful compared to other series.

Not seeing your point here. I never said him being the strongest god in his verse would make him the strongest god in another. I'm saying that makes Meta-God's feat/establishment easily his... as Meta-God's apparent loss proves he's not the strongest god in his verse.



And I'm sure DS can travel much faster than that and woulda taken down Yuri and co easily.

Faster? Doubtful. Currently, there's no actual number on the speed of DS. He's lightspeed+, but we don't know how much. Since it's clearly stated and shown that Meta-God traversed 4,800,000 lightyears in several days, one can easily calculate his speed (although I can't. I suck at math).

He probably could take them, but once again... this is limiter Amon. So what if he beats them. I'm talking about the big daddy Seraphic Radiance... a deity that would punk both limiter off Amon and Meta-God.

[Masaki]

Feh, I'd need a better idea on DS before making any more arguements...

[Keollyn]

Try the Bastard!! Directory. Z~K did a wonderful job.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Faster? Doubtful. Currently, there's no actual number on the speed of DS. He's lightspeed+, but we don't know how much. Since it's clearly stated and shown that Meta-God traversed 4,800,000 lightyears in several days, one can easily calculate his speed (although I can't. I suck at math).

That would be roughly 438.312.486 times the speed of light. I took four days as a basis since you just wrote several.

[Keollyn]

That would be roughly 438.312.486 times the speed of light. I took four days as a basis since you just wrote several.

I was saying several? Damn, I meant seven. This is what happens when you get little sleep :huh

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

I was saying several? Damn, I meant seven. This is what happens when you get little sleep :huh

Then it's 'just' 250.464.278 times the speed of light.

[Keollyn]

That Meta-God was a speedy bitch. Kinda makes me wonder how they beat him without SR...

Gameshark?

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

That Meta-God was a speedy bitch. Kinda makes me wonder how they beat him without SR...

Gameshark?

That isn't even all that fast... now this guy here is fast:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6964/barangershrike2006ws6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Shrike was calculated at several trillion times the speed of light... and he can cut you up on a subatomic level. Not to forget time powers and magic as well.

[Keollyn]

Never said it was.

And the Strike travels using temporal manipulation...

[Masaki]

That Meta-God was a speedy bitch. Kinda makes me wonder how they beat him without SR...

Gameshark?

A few seventh keys sure helped.

[Keollyn]

A few seventh keys sure helped.

I'll say. Them things are game hack!

[Kira-chan]

Wait a minute, Seth & Nuku = Keollyn? You seem a bit... different somehow.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

Wait a minute, Seth & Nuku = Keollyn? You seem a bit... different somehow.

You noticed that just now? I like the Nuku pics though...

[Kira-chan]

You noticed that just now? I like the Nuku pics though...
I had no way of telling until I realized that all the Keollyn posts had turned into Seth & Nuku ones...

[Keollyn]

Good different, or bad different? I'm assuming bad :huh

Speaking of Nuku Goes to add more images of my sexikin waifu

[Kira-chan]

Good different, or bad different? I'm assuming bad :huh

Speaking of Nuku Goes to add more images of my sexikin waifu
Just different, I am sensing kind of a theme though...

I'd sweatdrop, but for some reason I don't trust the smilies right now... O_O

[Keollyn]

Sensing? If the SN Seth & Nuku, coupled with images ONLY of Nuku wasn't a giveaway, I must not be trying hard enough.

Heck, you can never try hard enough Goes off to spam NF with "I love Nuku" threads

[Kira-chan]

Sensing? If the SN Seth & Nuku, coupled with images ONLY of Nuku wasn't a giveaway, I must not be trying hard enough.

Heck, you can never try hard enough Goes off to spam NF with "I love Nuku" threads
Okay then! ^_^

Suspects a plot to repopulate the world with half human half android with cat brain beings....

[Keollyn]

^ Heads executive meeting

"Alright everyone! Here's the plan. Nuku Nuku. My lap. NAO!"

[Yak]

Okay, this is only in regards of the Bastard!!-verse itself and has no relevance to other universes but I tried to get a rough estimation of DS' powerlevel, since this is hard to gauge anyway.

Let's look at some general things first: When the Seraphim and Konron were introduced, we learned about their powerlevels in numbers. Michael = 400.000, Gabriel = 300.000, Uriel/Raphael = 200.000.
Konron has a level of 13.000 and he was of the Dominion class when he was an angel (that's above Anthrax-level, mind you!).

When an angel falls and becomes a devil, his powerlevel rises. In fact, it at least doubles (most likely more, but I go with the lowest possible numbers to be sure). We learn that when looking at Uriel after his fall and Michael. In vol. 23 Michael stated that Uriel had become stronger than her, that she wouldn't even be able to beat his Augoeides with hers. Uriel originally had half the power of Michael, now he has more than her, thus it has at least doubled since his fall.

Before Konron became a devil, his powerlevel probably was around 6.000. (since it now is at 13.000)

Post-timeskip DS was probably around Konron's level (when he went full power and turned Augoeides) or slightly below. That said, DS' base-level since the timeskip could be guessed at </= 13.000.

Majin DS is slightly stronger or on par with fallen Uriel, who has a minimum power level of 400.000.

Beelzebub was an angel of the Seraphim class and since his power level as a Devil now is >1.000.000 during his Angel times it was around 500.000. Still onehundred thousand more than Michael has now (actually, that's quite something...)

Going by this we can almost assume that even as an Angel Beelzebub would be on par with Majin DS. Now, as a Devil he is twice as strong and assuming that Satan himself is even stronger... Dark Schneider has at least two people in front of him that could just fucking slaughter him, even right now.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

When an angel falls and becomes a devil, his powerlevel rises. In fact, it at least doubles (most likely more, but I go with the lowest possible numbers to be sure). We learn that when looking at Uriel after his fall and Michael. In vol. 23 Michael stated that Uriel had become stronger than her, that she wouldn't even be able to beat his Augoeides with hers. Uriel originally had half the power of Michael, now he has more than her, thus it has at least doubled since his fall.

Before Konron became a devil, his powerlevel probably was around 6.000. (since it now is at 13.000)

Post-timeskip DS was probably around Konron's level (when he went full power and turned Augoeides) or slightly below. That said, DS' base-level since the timeskip could be guessed at </= 13.000.

Majin DS is slightly stronger or on par with fallen Uriel, who has a minimum power level of 400.000.

Beelzebub was an angel of the Seraphim class and since his power level as a Devil now is >1.000.000 during his Angel times it was around 500.000. Still onehundred thousand more than Michael has now (actually, that's quite something...)

Don't forget the 'Hell' bonus demons get when they fight there. And Konron also stated that angels are weaker there. We also don't know if Dark Schneider got a boost from his environment (which is likely though, since he always got stronger when dark/evil energy surrounded him).

[Yak]

Don't forget the 'Hell' bonus demons get when they fight there. And Konron also stated that angels are weaker there. We also don't know if Dark Schneider got a boost from his environment (which is likely though, since he always got stronger when dark/evil energy surrounded him).

True, but as I said, such things are difficult to calculate anyway. But you are right, of course. But the point still stands, Satan and Beelze are still a lot stronger. I wonder where the other Demon Kings rank.

[Kamen Rider Ryoma]

True, but as I said, such things are difficult to calculate anyway. But you are right, of course. But the point still stands, Satan and Beelze are still a lot stronger. I wonder where the other Demon Kings rank.

That's a good question but they are kinda incompetent. Considering that DS managed to steal their Pains somehow (expect Beelzebub's).

[Kira-chan]

What about Pre-Crisis Darkseid, would he be able to defeat DS?

[Endless Mike]

What about Pre-Crisis Darkseid, would he be able to defeat DS?

No. Judas Pains prevent him from being erased from existence.

[Kira-chan]

No. Judas Pains prevent him from being erased from existence.
That's pretty much what I thought, I do think Darkstar/Valgaav from Slayers TRY should be able to beat him though.