View Full Version : Naruto Tournament Discussion part 2
For those of you who have no clue what's been going on. Right now there is a trial tournament in process. This is trial or test tournament is to see how the tournament goes and to see what we need to improve so that the real tournament will be better and a good success.
Here's a link to the Trial Tournament Registration
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=180828
and
Here's a link to the first Tournament Discussion Thread
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=179756
I made a new discussion thread so that we can discuss this trial, what we should fix for the next tournament, how the TIER list should be displayed, and also what's working out for this Trial.
Positive and Negative Feedback welcome.
Also... here's the tier list we used for this tournament, remember each member was allowed to use 50 points when choosing their team.
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
Jiraiya
Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Tsunade
Naruto (after wind training)
Low Kage – 25 points
Kakashi w/ MS
Gai w/ 6 gates
Hidan
30% Itachi
30% Kisame
Sarutobi
Chiyo
High Jounin – 20 points
Kakashi w/o MS
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Healthy Kimimaro
Zabuza
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Asuma
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Drugged Jiraiya
Oro with no hands
Low Jounin - 10 points
Post Naruto (pre-clone training, KN2 Max)
Sick Kimimaro
Post Shikamaru
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Sai
Drunk Lee
Shizune
Pre Gaara (Naruto fight)
Pre Naruto (Gaara fight)
High Chunnin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Mid Chunnin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Post Tenten
Pre Lee (exam, gates)
Jirobou (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam)
Low Chunnin – 4 points
Post Ino
Pre Lee
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Pre Sasuke (3rd round Chunnin exam)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misami (body altering guy)
Arkado Yorki (absorbing chakra guy)
Pre Chouji (SRA)
Mid Genin – 2 points
Pre Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin
Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Also, congrats to winners of Round 1.
CrazyMoron X
Risu
Martryn
Sharingan No Yondaime
there are still two matches going on in Round 1. Everyone please vote so we can move on to round 2.
Thank you everyone for your participation.
I'm almost finished drafting up a new tier list. Naruto and Sarutobi for sure are way too low, and a lot of adjustments need to be done.
Voting also needs to be adjusted. I had a far different interpretation of this tournament than what is happening now. My idea does involve an active mod for this competition, or just constant bumping. Make a topic for the two contenders to debate for say a maximum of 3 posts or something to make their case.
If mods can add polls, then we can add a poll to the topic and have the people vote. If not, create another topic, a voting topic, and allow people to vote, 1 point for each vote, 2 for a post accompanying.
In general, this tournament is working out well so far, but there is a lot of room for improvement. This is just a trial after all.
aite thanks my nigga, also i gotta remember ur Madobe Nite
Spell
02-22-2007, 06:00 AM
I will add some improvements to the list soon. I agree with Kyon (aka Madobe Nite) that KN2 and Sarutobi are too low.
And yes, active mod would be a big help.
martryn
02-22-2007, 06:07 AM
The list is fucked in many regards. I don't want to get into it again.
Feral
02-22-2007, 09:56 AM
I think one possible problem with team battles is that theres so much speculation, especially regarding characters' whose full abilities haven't been shown. 1,000 different possibilities could happen in just one matchup, due to many different situations and techniques being thrown against each other, it's really hard to predict what would happen.
However, I do think some scenarios are definitely more likely than others, and that perhaps the purpose of these battles is to argue for the more likely scenarios (I've been reading them, and mostly this has what has been going on).
All in all though, I think this is a good idea, as it brings a lot of good arguments to the table.
Spell
02-22-2007, 09:59 AM
I think one possible problem with team battles is that theres so much speculation, especially regarding characters' whose full abilities haven't been shown. 1,000 different possibilities could happen in just one matchup, due to many different situations and techniques being thrown against each other, it's really hard to predict what would happen.
That's why it brings a lot of fun :D
Feral
02-22-2007, 10:14 AM
That's why it brings a lot of fun :D
Fun yes :amuse , but it does cause a few arguments that are just difficult to settle. Then again, people rate different characters differently anyway, so those will happen no matter what.
Sasori
02-22-2007, 07:48 PM
I wana play :(...how do i play?
The Truth
02-22-2007, 07:50 PM
After the trial tournament is over there will be an opportunity for you to play.
Sasori
02-22-2007, 07:57 PM
Yay!!!!...u promise :spaz?
Ya u can play when the real tournament starts.
And Sasori IS an avaiable character.
CrazyMoronX
02-23-2007, 10:07 PM
Is it round 2, yet? :arg
Spell
02-24-2007, 05:52 AM
Fun yes :amuse , but it does cause a few arguments that are just difficult to settle. Then again, people rate different characters differently anyway, so those will happen no matter what.
Yeah I know :/ , however would you like to participate:) ?
Feral
02-24-2007, 09:47 AM
Yeah, I would. It would be fun.. and the battledome is part of the reason I signed up for this forum in the first place :P
Yeah, I would. It would be fun.. and the battledome is part of the reason I signed up for this forum in the first place :P
Check out the Outskirts Battledome then. It's better.
Spell
02-25-2007, 05:44 AM
Check out the Outskirts Battledome then. It's better.
No way :yell
I'm done the new tier list, which is by no means perfect, though I did fix a few of the things that were totally wrong with the last one.
A lot of stuff here is quite debatable, so who wants to start by correcting this?
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
Jiraiya
Sarutobi (old)
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Mid Kage – 32 points
Tsunade
Naruto (after wind training, KN0 max)
Post Naruto (pre-clone training, KN2)
Low Kage – 25 points
Kakashi w/ MS
Gai w/ 6 gates
Hidan
Chiyo
High Jounin – 20 points
Kakashi w/o MS
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Healthy Kimimaro
Zabuza
30% Itachi
30% Kisame
Drugged Jiraiya
Oro with no hands
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Asuma
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Kabuto
Low Jounin - 10 points
Post Naruto (no Kyuubi)
Sick Kimimaro
Post Shikamaru
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Sai
Shizune
Pre Gaara (Naruto fight)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
High Chunnin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Sasuke (3 tomoe sharingan)
Mid Chunnin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Post Tenten
Pre Lee (exam, 2 gates, no weights)
Drunk Lee
Jirobou (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Naruto (final exam, KN0 only)
Sasuke(final exam)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Low Chunnin – 4 points
Post Ino
Pre Lee (no weights, no gates)
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Pre Sasuke (3rd round Chunnin exam)
Pre Naruto (exam, KN0 only)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Naruto KN0 (Zabuza arc)
High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Arkado Yoroi (absorbing chakra guy)
Pre Chouji (SRA)
Pre Lee (weights, no gates)
Mid Genin – 2 points
Pre Naruto (zabuza arc, no Kyuubi)
Kin
Hinata
Tsurugi Misumi (body altering guy)
Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kung Lao
02-28-2007, 05:16 PM
I'm done the new tier list, which is by no means perfect, though I did fix a few of the things that were totally wrong with the last one.
A lot of stuff here is quite debatable, so who wants to start by correcting this?
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
Jiraiya
Sarutobi (old)
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
[B]
The old Kakuzu Jiraiya Sasori and Orochimaru combo was pretty good for those 40 points, I'd say. Gaara can probably be quite a good fighter, but 40 points is only if the terrain is desert. Deidara.. Well.. Hard to say, maybe some tier between high and mid kage? Sarutobi definitely doesn't belong here though, I'd say mid Kage will do just fine for him. While many people make out him to be really powerful, I don't see him taking any of those other people. (Although this is only my opinion).
Spell
02-28-2007, 05:21 PM
Thaks Kyon :)
a piece of advice: don't list Sai, we don't know much about him.
Also we have seen KN1 and KN3 after timeskip, so I wouldn't list KN2 but these we already know. IMO: KN1 - low kage, KN3 - mid kage.
And I would list Dei and Gaara in mid.
I listed Sai? :huh
Oh shit. Didn't notice that.
Gaara and Deidara, now that I think about it, are more likely mid kage. Old Sarutobi definately belongs in High Kage because of how much people overestimate him, and of course Shiki Fuujin. If for 25 points he can kill every member of Risu's team (:wink), I think it's safe to say he should cost a hell of a lot more. He's probably slightly weaker than the rest in that tier, but he is subject to a lot of overestimation.
I thought we did see a little of KN2, rather than KN3. The KN's are slightly overpowered IMO because of instant healing, super speed, and KN1 has control whereas KN3 doesn't, so arguably they could actually be the same tier. Plus, the only way to defeat them is to simply have someone in the same tier as them or be able to supress them (ie. Yamato) so I thought that having KN? in mid or high kage regardless of level (or at least post-skip) would be a great idea.
Spell
02-28-2007, 05:36 PM
I listed Sai? :huh
Oh shit. Didn't notice that.
:laugh LOL
Gaara and Deidara, now that I think about it, are more likely mid kage. Old Sarutobi definately belongs in High Kage because of how much people overestimate him, and of course Shiki Fuujin.
Yeah :notrust
If for 25 points he can kill every member of Risu's team (:wink), I think it's safe to say he should cost a hell of a lot more. He's probably slightly weaker than the rest in that tier, but he is subject to a lot of overestimation.Yup:amuse I don't want to see him against my team anymore :yell
I thought we did see a little of KN2, rather than KN3.
We did see KN2, but only the tails, nothing more. We know what KN3 is capable to do so imo it would be more wise to list KN3 rather than KN2
The KN's are slightly overpowered IMO because of instant healing, super speed, Yeah but Sarutards don't understand it :notrust
and KN1 has control whereas KN3 doesn't, so arguably they could actually be the same tier. Plus, the only way to defeat them is to simply have someone in the same tier as them or be able to supress them (ie. Yamato) so I thought that having KN? in mid or high kage regardless of level (or at least post-skip) would be a great idea.
Hm, I think we should think about it. I dunno yet.
Well first, i think we should establish if members really want another Naruto Tournament.
Kung Lao
03-01-2007, 06:00 PM
If for 25 points he can kill every member of Risu's team (:wink), I think it's safe to say he should cost a hell of a lot more. He's probably slightly weaker than the rest in that tier, but he is subject to a lot of overestimation.
Well, a few people stated that because of Sarutobi my team could win. That doesn't mean that Sarutobi > The whole other team, it just means that he is a lot of help tere. Wasn't Gooba the only person to state that Sarutobi alone takes the match?
Anyway.. It's your decision, but he'd better suit the 2nd tier.
Spell
03-02-2007, 11:32 AM
Well first, i think we should establish if members really want another Naruto Tournament.
Someone doesn't want:oh ?
Wasn't Gooba the only person to state that Sarutobi alone takes the match?
Blue said it too. Space was close to that statement:(
Redux-shika boo
03-02-2007, 05:10 PM
My Attempt at a tier list.
Notes-
-I assume all the Sannin are banned from Boss Summons for this tournament.
-I assume Mini Kyuubi, and Yondaime are excluded from the tournament.
-I shifted the points a bit and put in two other places.
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Kakuzu
Postimeskip Gaara before extraction
Itachi
Mid Kage – 36 points
Tsunade
Sasori
Sarutobi (old)
Postimeskip Sasuke (343)
Deidara
Low Kage – 28 points
Post Kakashi with or without MS
Post Gai with Gates
Naruto after wind Training (3 tail max, but should be unlikely to get into)
Yamato
Chiyo
High Jounin – 21 points
Kimimaro unable to die from disease
Zabuza
30% Itachi
30% Kisame
Asuma
Hidan
Naruto before wind training (1 tail max)
Gai without Gates
Drugged Jiraiya
Oro with no hands
Gaara (SRA)
Mid Jounin – 14 points
Post Kabuto (funky abilities included)
Post Shikamaru
Post Neji
Post Naruto (no Kyuubi)
Shizune
Low Jounin - 11 points
Pre Sasuke 3 tomoe (Cs2 acess)
Pre Gaara (Naruto fight)-(mini Shuhaku max)
Pre KN1
Chouji (Red Pill)
High Chunnin – 9 points
Sai
Pre Sasuke (3 tomoe sharingan cs1)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Pre Naruto (Kyuubi mode vs Sasuke )
Jirobu (CS2)
Haku
Pre Lee (exam, no restrictions)
High/Mid Chunnin – 7 Points
Anko (of her showing)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Post Sakura
Post Tenten
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Sakon/Ukon (CS1)
Tayuya (CS1)
Jirobu (CS1)
Pre Sasuke (fight vs gaara)
Naruto KN0 (Zabuza arc)
Mid Chunnin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Pre Lee (exam, 2 gates, no weights)
Drunk Lee
Pre Chouji (yellow pill max)
Pre Neji (fight vs naruto)
Pre Naruto Kyuubi (fight vs neji)
Little Kakashi (kakashi gaiden)
Low Chunnin – 4 points
Dosu
Rock Nin who killed Obito
Pre Kankuro (invasion arc)
Shino (invasion arc)
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (normal)
Pre Shikamaru (SRA)
Obito
Pre Sasuke ( Forest of Death level, with cs, and with attack shown vs Yoroi)
Pre Lee (no weights, no gates)
Pre Temari (vs shikamaru)
Pre Chouji (SRA) +green pill
Izumo
Hayate
Mid Genin – 2 points
Mud Trio Guys (The ones who use their jutsu near the end of the forest of death)
Pre Naruto (kiba fight)
Kiba (naruto fight)
Yoroi
Pre Lee (weights on, gate 1 max)
Pre Chouji (SRA) – no pills, no weapons-
Hinata
Mizuki
Low Genin – 1 point
Pre Naruto –wave arc-
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Demon Brothers
Zaku
Misumi
Kin
Pre Chouji (chunnin exam)
Rain ninja restricted to attack he used on Gaara
Cannon Fodder – 1/2 point
Pre Konohamaru
Inari with Cross bow
durtycheese
03-02-2007, 05:22 PM
great chart but i do beleive sarutobi and chiyo are too low...
Is it just me, or are the 3 individuals who are just about to enter the last round of the trial tournament all have Old Sarutobi with Enma on their team?
Yes, they do. That is why he is higher up on the new lists.
I personally think we should exclude him, or Shiki Fuujin.
Katalyze
03-03-2007, 08:45 AM
I think Gaara, is too high, everyone in that category can kill gaara and deidara had such an easy time with it even thought gaara was in the desert and deidara wasnt trying to kill him.
Feral
03-03-2007, 08:52 AM
I say putting Saru high is a good choice because of the overestimaton, but what about Kabuto? Someone could get him for 14 points and argue that he is stronger than everyone, with another bunch of powerhouses on their team as well.
I also don't see why there shouldn't be a second one of these.
Spell
03-03-2007, 11:24 AM
Please do not list shinobi about we have not enough information. I don't want to see flame discussion who is stronger Jiraiya or Itachi? Sai or Naruto? Haku or Zabuza?
I swear if someone will choose Itachi I will throw out all my bitter and since this tournament seems to be based only on assumptions not facts - I will give instant win to any team including Itachi. :mad
The Truth
03-03-2007, 04:02 PM
Sarutobi is high kage level? That is insane I must say. I think it'd be wise for everyone to read Sandaime's fight against Oro in the manga as opposed to the animated version. That anime made him look stronger then he really was, i think he was fine in his original spot in the rankings.
Zeche
03-03-2007, 07:45 PM
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Kakuzu
Postimeskip Gaara before extraction
Itachi
Sarutobi (old)
Just seeing Gaara there and no Sasori made me stop reading.
Sarutobi is high kage level? That is insane I must say. I think it'd be wise for everyone to read Sandaime's fight against Oro in the manga as opposed to the animated version. That anime made him look stronger then he really was, i think he was fine in his original spot in the rankings.
Yea...Rock Lee looked much weaker in the manga too.Even if Sarutobi is much weaker in the manga, during the discussions he will be treated as the same strength as in the anime by the majority of the people.
sakura"s
03-03-2007, 07:56 PM
How do u even play ?
The Truth
03-03-2007, 08:07 PM
Yea...Rock Lee looked much weaker in the manga too.Even if Sarutobi is much weaker in the manga, during the discussions he will be treated as the same strength as in the anime by the majority of the people.
Yeah, its somewhat understandable because that is my favorite fight in the anime. However, Sarutobi didn't look near as dominant in the manga. We should give him the credit he deserves, even at 69 Kabuto called him the strongest among the current 5 kages.
But people should realize his limitations. Oro never fought Sandaime until the very end, he spent his time directly controlling the zombies. The belief that Sandaime was fighting 3 on 1 is one of many misconceptions that i'll deal with some other time.
Redux-shika boo
03-03-2007, 08:35 PM
I think Gaara, is too high, everyone in that category can kill gaara and deidara had such an easy time with it even thought gaara was in the desert and deidara wasnt trying to kill him.
Sorry, but I can't agree with this at all. Moreover, I think Gaara is terribly underestimated because of the Deidara fight, and because people equate too much of his pretimeskip self to his postimeskip self. On this point, I think the worst thing is that many still think he is susceptible to someone simply being fast.
As for the other reason I put him where I did, this is because of 3 things.
1. He can skew the field to his favor as long as the intial setting isn't to far against him. Moreover, once he changes the field his all around offense and defense increase... as does his capacity to help his teamates. In addition, his jutsu's are generally massive and fatal.
2. He can fly and showed he can get up fast and stay up there. In addition, he also showe shunshin pre, and good reaction and attack speed post.
3. He has mini shuhaku transformation at the very least, of which gives him high level healing.
Lastly, I think he has good odds against all of them, and that some defintly cannot beat him.
Sarutobi hasn't shown anything that lets him beat Gaara or even deal well with him.
Itachi outside of Tsuki has nothing truly effective to beat Gaara.
Jiraiya = too much speculation.
Orochimaru is very likely to beat Gaara.
Kakuzu is certaintly dangerous as hell, but I'm not sure if his lighting operates in the same penetrating manner as Raikari. And, if it does not, I see little reason for it by itself being highly effective against Gaara. As for fire and wind, neither of those will do much. Kakuzu earth jutsu on his skin is a great defense, but kimi stated he would have been killed if he didn't go to curse seal 1 and erect another shield of bone armor. So Gaara should be able to tear through the earth defense. The water mask isn't going to be helpful. That being said, all this could change when he combines them. Moreover, with tentacles, and his speed he is all the more dangerous. Still, him defintly beating Gaara isn't certain.
-looking at the others...
Tsunade losses.
Sasori wins or losses, and the only way he can win is if he can get Iron sand out and if it's highly effective or not.
Deidara wins.
I say putting Saru high is a good choice because of the overestimaton, but what about Kabuto? Someone could get him for 14 points and argue that he is stronger than everyone, with another bunch of powerhouses on their team as well.
I also don't see why there shouldn't be a second one of these.
I put Sarutobi as high because there seems to be an underlining presumption by many as him being just that. If it was just my own strength rating of him of what we've seen then I would have put him low kage. However, it's pointless to just make a tier list for the tournie and not factor in the assumptions about certain characters... that have been made obvious just by reading some of the trounie threads.
As For Kabuto, well, I think he deserves to be higher in a sense, because of his usefullness in a team context. However, I also think him being low opens things up a bit, and that in terms of a one on one situation that I placed him properly, when compared to others usefulness in his tier, and others above.
Please do not list shinobi about we have not enough information. I don't want to see flame discussion who is stronger Jiraiya or Itachi? Sai or Naruto? Haku or Zabuza?
I swear if someone will choose Itachi I will throw out all my bitter and since this tournament seems to be based only on assumptions not facts - I will give instant win to any team including Itachi. :mad
Listen, stop whining so much. Now, I agree with you I did place a people we haven't seen much from, but you're exaggerating the point. I mean, I will admit Jiraiya especially is too speculative and would equate to huge assumptions. Although if people would just go off what we've seen and know of Jiraiya there wouldn't be much problem. But I guess that's asking too much. :cry
On the otherhand, Itachi has shwon enough to be in this. Imo.
-Also, I think Sai is on the borderline... in terms of what he showed.
However, I agree, I just placed him for placing sake. :laugh
As for Haku, are you being serious ?
Spell
03-04-2007, 05:37 AM
Listen, stop whining so much. Now, I agree with you I did place a people we haven't seen much from, but you're exaggerating the point. I mean, I will admit Jiraiya especially is too speculative and would equate to huge assumptions. Although if people would just go off what we've seen and know of Jiraiya there wouldn't be much problem. But I guess that's asking too much. :cry
I'm not whining, I'm just irritated. Lot of people gave instant win to Sarutobi during this tournament just because he was called 'god of shinobi' despite the fact their had no reasonable arguments and I invalidated all of them. So I'm going to follow their reasoning and I'm going to make statements based only on assumptions. I won't bother to state facts and evidence I will just base on my personnal beliefs.:mad
I've proved Sarutobi isn't capable of being listed in the highest tier. He would lose to every single one shinobi listed there.
On the otherhand, Itachi has shwon enough to be in this. Imo. That's why I'm going to give him instant win in every fight.
As for Haku, are you being serious ?
Yes. Zabuza stated that Kakashi can beat him but is not able to beat Haku. That's why I would not list Haku - too controversial.
Grrblt
03-04-2007, 10:57 AM
Suggestion for new rule:
allow only moves that we know or can logically infer that characters are able to use. This gets rid of the "he knows more than 1000 jutsu so he should have a counter for that" bullshit.
Spell
03-04-2007, 12:23 PM
Suggestion for new rule:
allow only moves that we know or can logically infer that characters are able to use. This gets rid of the "he knows more than 1000 jutsu so he should have a counter for that" bullshit.
Yeah, I told it before. Battledome is made for battles, not assumptions, but many didn't agree with it (Blue, Gooba - Admin and Akatsuki !!!) :cry
I asked what jutsus Saru could use, but they didn't answer, they were basing only on Sarutobi's reputation and overrate his abilities in Oro fight :(
The Truth
03-04-2007, 02:23 PM
Yes. Zabuza stated that Kakashi can beat him but is not able to beat Haku. That's why I would not list Haku - too controversial.
This is an instance when you have to read in between the lines. Zabuza's jutsus were weaker then Haku's because of his bloodline advantage. That doesn't mean Haku was jounin level. In fact, judging from his databook stats he was a chuunin at best. I see no reason why he shouldn't be ranked.
Spell
03-04-2007, 02:50 PM
This is an instance when you have to read in between the lines. Zabuza's jutsus were weaker then Haku's because of his bloodline advantage. That doesn't mean Haku was jounin level.
Then why Zabuza said Kakashi can't beat Haku? Kishimoto's inconsistency?
In fact, judging from his databook stats he was a chuunin at best. I see no reason why he shouldn't be ranked.
Yes I know Haku's stats are comparable to mid chuunin, but databook is messed up in a few places, so I wouldn't base on it.
*bump
so if u read the final match, i posted that the 3 finalists will be in charge of the tier list for the real tournament. the victor will be the one to have the final approval of the list.
ALSO, if u guys can, promote the tournament in ur sig or something, or else we're going to have the same members fighting eachother again.
Turrin
03-07-2007, 09:07 PM
i will join but agian i think the tier list needs to be change up a little
i will join but agian i think the tier list needs to be change up a little
You know, for some things you get a prize for being the 1 millionth person to mention something, but...
Sarutobi is an alternating must. Any person that had that son of a beast on their team got all the way to at least the semi finals.
Grrblt
03-07-2007, 09:15 PM
You know, for some things you get a prize for being the 1 millionth person to mention something, but...
Sarutobi is an alternating must. Any person that had that son of a beast on their team got all the way to at least the semi finals.
The rule I mentioned on the top of this page would prevent this from happening again. The list was balanced with that rule in mind anyway, it just was never written down.
Comic Book Guy
03-07-2007, 09:32 PM
Sigh. . .
When I had the time, I was planning to organize a Naruto Battledome Tournament, utilizing the tier-point-bidding system akin to the Eisner Cup.
Then I realized I was beaten to the punch. . .
Ah well. Congratulations to the tournament organizer(s) for hosting the tourny. Keep promoting the Battledome debating!
Sigh. . .
When I had the time, I was planning to organize a Naruto Battledome Tournament, utilizing the tier-point-bidding system akin to the Eisner Cup.
Then I realized I was beaten to the punch. . .
Ah well. Congratulations to the tournament organizer(s) for hosting the tourny. Keep promoting the Battledome debating!
Thanks CBG, got any suggestions for the real tourney coming up soon?
Also, when does Captain America #25 come out? I don't like seeing him in jail.
Gooba
03-08-2007, 03:58 AM
Yeah, I told it before. Battledome is made for battles, not assumptions, but many didn't agree with it No, you said is is based on certain assumptions instead of other assumptions, which i disagree with. I've been over this a lot in other threads so I won't say any more here.
Nahrootoe
03-08-2007, 05:58 AM
Why not instead of "buying" shinobi with points, you gather all the competitors who are interested, and set up a "draft" of ninjas. That way, people can draft intelligently without having a set "cap" of points based on arbitrary distinctions.
There's a lot of point values assigned that seem controversial.
Odama123
03-08-2007, 07:38 AM
I'll join too but i think u should also rate them by fan popularity along with skill too many "assumptions" are made by biased fans
i can join right?
I'll join too but i think u should also rate them by fan popularity along with skill too many "assumptions" are made by biased fans
i can join right?
of course u can join. This thread right now is for the trial tournament discussion and the pre-real tournament discussion. Our big thing right now is to make an accurate as possible tier list. and once everything is settled i'll be making a Registration thread so u can register ur team. ur input will be heard and much appreciated homie.
Esponer
03-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Suggestion for new rule:
allow only moves that we know or can logically infer that characters are able to use. This gets rid of the "he knows more than 1000 jutsu so he should have a counter for that" bullshit.
I strongly disagree. If a character is said to know over one thousand jutsu, it is ridiculous to discuss battles under the assumption that they know six. The Naruto world has an awful lot of jutsu which have no counters likely to be demonstrated "just for the hell of it" by high level shinobi. Is it then fair to say that various chuunin level techniques would easily beat legendary jounin? Not in the slightest.
Denying the ability to ponder the full scope of a character's repertoire of jutsu and their abilities completely ruins the whole thing, and you'll quickly end up with cases where chuunin immediately beat legendary jounin.
Oh, I'm considering joining in the real tournament, by the way. I can post regularly enough so long as I know when to start... if you've noticed the apparently incorrect name "On Hiatus" under my name, that's meant to demonstrate that I'm online a bit unreliably as of late due to exams coming up. So long as I know when to be around it's fine.
Kuya, if I choose to join, would you be able to email me (assuming I give you my address) or IM me on AIM a day or a few hours before you start the match and tell me when it'll begin?
Starting tomorrow, I am going to be offline for a month.
How long until you guys start the new tournament, and if there are enough people that would draw it out for that amount of time (I don't have a specific day yet) then could you place my fight at the very end?
If I don't show, the person on the end gets an automatic win. I'll try to get on some kind of internet during that month, but I have no guarantee.
Grrblt
03-08-2007, 12:04 PM
I strongly disagree. If a character is said to know over one thousand jutsu, it is ridiculous to discuss battles under the assumption that they know six. The Naruto world has an awful lot of jutsu which have no counters likely to be demonstrated "just for the hell of it" by high level shinobi. Is it then fair to say that various chuunin level techniques would easily beat legendary jounin? Not in the slightest.
Denying the ability to ponder the full scope of a character's repertoire of jutsu and their abilities completely ruins the whole thing, and you'll quickly end up with cases where chuunin immediately beat legendary jounin.
I have never seen any battledome threads where generic chuunin (not the super guys like Naruto, Sasuke and Gaara) own legendary jounins. I have, however, seen characters become unbeatable simply because one can argue that "this guy knows over a thousand jutsu, and one of them should be a perfect counter to <whatever opponent does>". I could pit Superman against Kakashi and Kakashi would still win, because one of the thousand jutsus he has never shown is probably something that summons kryptonite.
It's extremely frustrating to come up against those arguments, and they are the reason two Old Sarutobi made it to the final in the test tournament. If we allowed speculation on what jutsu a character might possess, then there is no possible way to balance Sarutobi no matter how many points he costs.
Gooba
03-08-2007, 12:20 PM
I could pit Superman against Kakashi and Kakashi would still win, because one of the thousand jutsus he has never shown is probably something that summons kryptonite.That is incredibly specific. To assume someone has a jutsu which summons Kryptonite, and to assume someone has some jutsu which would be an effective counter against another jutsu are two completely separate things. For example, Nidaime countered Sandaime's Katon with a Suiton, then Sandaime countered another with a Doton. He was even able to counter Oro's Hokage summoning technique (well, 1/3rd of it). To assume he has nothing which would be effective against a flying opponent, or an opponent with multiple puppets, or some other fight people say he has no hope in, is pretty ridiculous. In his fight against Oro all we saw were the Hokages busting out techniques to counter the other techniques they faced. I think it is a rather unfounded assumption to say that they got lucky and they very few techniques they knew just happened to be perfect for the only fight there were in. It is a lot more likely that they know tons of jutsus which can counter tons of other jutsus, but only used a small selection of them since the fight was short. Sandaime never demonstrated the ability to fight a flier because he never fought a flier. Saying that he can't is unfair since he has never shown one way or the other. Since we can't use anything we have seen him do to judge, we then have to look at the rest of the manga. In it, we see that he was made Hokage at a very young age, went through at least 1 giant war, has been said to have a huge variety of jutsus, and is still Hokage even with people as skilled as Kakashi running around. That evidence makes it much more likely than not he has something somewhere which is able to deal with them. That is much different from saying he has a jutsu which makes big roots come up from the ground and pull the flier down, or something specific. There are hundreds of concievable ways he could deal with a flier, assuming he has 1 isn't a stretch.
Also, as an OBdome regular I'll tell you that there is no way in hell Kakashi would beat Superman. Naruto Jounins almost always lose to anyone starting at Captain America's level and up.
hi can i join up sounds it gonna be fun
Esponer
03-08-2007, 12:38 PM
I have never seen any battledome threads where generic chuunin (not the super guys like Naruto, Sasuke and Gaara) own legendary jounins.
The sort of travesty I'm talking about it epitomised in any discussion involving the Sound Four, Ino or Haku: chuunin level opponents who have some bloody devastating techniques. If you don't let high level opponents have the benefit of the doubt they die to Haku's Makyou Hyou Shou, Ino's Shintenshin, Jiroubou's Doroudoumu, Ukon's Kisei Kikai and Kidoumaru's Kumo Senkyuu except in the rare cases that they've shown the right sort of counter already. This wouldn't be such a problem, except... it's been made very clear in Naruto that your "level" matters, and that Haku, Jiroubou, Kidoumaru, Sakon and Tayuya don't and can't go around defeating elite jounin. (The last four were pushed to defeat two generic special jounin in a nod towards the concept of levels.)
Flying opponents are an even bigger problem still.
Anyway, both of the things we're talking about are problems. The way I see it is that we should not respect either sort of argument, but should not ban the discussion of what other jutsu a character might have.
Spell
03-08-2007, 01:21 PM
For a few reasons a stated before in many threads, I agree with Grrblt. If you analize the whole tournament, you'll see how irrational some fight were. In most of them Sarutobi was an instant win, but his supporters didn't state anything but assumptions. And assumptions battles aren't the reason a joined this tournament. I wanted to discuss about jutsus, abilities and strategies.
And damn, this tournament lacks it!
My team is only one in final which hasn't got Sarutobi, it seems really stupid to me :notrust
Anyway, both of the things we're talking about are problems. The way I see it is that we should not respect either sort of argument, but should not ban the discussion of what other jutsu a character might have.
Ok then, we know kakashi copied over 1000 jutsus, his stats in databook are comparable to Sarutobis (YES!). So I assume he is on the same level as Sarutobi or maybe even higher because he has got sharingan.
Gooba
03-08-2007, 01:24 PM
Ok then, we know kakashi copied over 1000 jutsus, his stats in databook are comparable to Sarutobis (YES!). So I assume he is on the same level as Sarutobi or maybe even higher because he has got sharingan.Reasonable assumptions, until you look at him shitting his pants for even pretending to be able to fight Oro, and then Sandaime went and almost beat Oro+2.
You guys want to only analyze the individual battles the characters are in to determine who wins. I want to analyze every single page in the manga.
I agree with Gooba's way of debating... >_<
So in an Itachi Versus Orochimaru thread, we're supposed to ignore the parts where Orochimaru has said that Itachi is stronger than him?
The Truth
03-08-2007, 01:49 PM
Then why Zabuza said Kakashi can't beat Haku? Kishimoto's inconsistency?
More like Zabuza overrating Haku's skills. The same way Asuma thought he could take on Itachi.
Yes I know Haku's stats are comparable to mid chuunin, but databook is messed up in a few places, so I wouldn't base on it.
The databook isn't messed up, just often misinterpreted. If you just glance at Haku's stat graph you can clearly see he has development comparable to a chuunin.
Spell
03-08-2007, 01:51 PM
Reasonable assumptions, until you look at him shitting his pants for even pretending to be able to fight Oro, and then Sandaime went and almost beat Oro+2.
Oro was playing with Saru. He could kill him in the beginning if he wanted. And Kakashi didn't shitted his pants, he was only conscious he can't win with Oro, as well as Sarutobi was.
You guys want to only analyze the individual battles the characters are in to determine who wins. I want to analyze every single page in the manga.I want to analize every single page in the manga, you want to analize and add tons of assumptions. Well I'm not saying I never assume, but I do not base on my considerations so much.
edit:
I agree with Gooba's way of debating... >_<
So in an Itachi Versus Orochimaru thread, we're supposed to ignore the parts where Orochimaru has said that Itachi is stronger than him?
No Oro's statement is a fact as well, it gives some evidence how strong is Itachi. But still it doesn't give the full vision of his abilities and we can't state Itachi wins only because Oro stated he is stronger. We need to suppot is by some other fact like jutsus and abilities we have seen.
More like Zabuza overrating Haku's skills. The same way Asuma thought he could take on Itachi.
Yes that's possible, but consider Zabuza had known Haku and Asuma hadn't known Itachi's skills.
The databook isn't messed up, just often misinterpreted. If you just glance at Haku's stat graph you can clearly see he has development comparable to a chuunin.
Ok, maybe my thought wasn't precise. I mean we can't base on databook because stats doesn't guarantee reasults in a battle.
And yes Haku's stats are comparable to a chuunin.
niyesuH
03-08-2007, 02:21 PM
i am in if there will be a new tournament
Esponer
03-08-2007, 02:59 PM
It doesn't appear to me that either opinion enjoys a massive majority on these forums (Grrblt and Risu's, and mine and Gooba's), so it would be unwise for Kuya to pose restrictions on advocates of either way of interpreting the story. If he did so he would very nearly be cutting the sample size in half and introducing a large degree of bias.
In most of them Sarutobi was an instant win, but his supporters didn't state anything but assumptions. And assumptions battles aren't the reason a joined this tournament. I wanted to discuss about jutsus, abilities and strategies.
Risu, every piece of evidence used in discussion of these tournaments is theoretical, and every assessment is an assumption. You seem keen on discussing demonstrated techniques relative to each other, and that's fine. But you too have to make an awful lot of assumptions: you must still assume the relative strengths, staminas, speeds, reaction times, intellects and seal speeds of every character in the match, or at least of the two you're considering at any one moment. Whatever you decide, these are assumptions.
What you were seeing was other people genuinely coming to the conclusion that in all these categories, Sarutobi had a base so much higher that the rest didn't matter. Is this sort of idea inconsistent with the manga? Not in the slightest. Kishimoto has repeatedly shown us the concept of shinobi just plain being on a different level to others — the Databook shows it, Sasuke's reaction to being in the presence of Zabuza shows it, Kimimaro being able to slaughter the Sound Four despite being at a massive tactical disadvantage shows it, Kakashi feeling incapable of even competing with Orochimaru shows it.
I understand your frustration, but what you were seeing were genuine interpretations that were no more assumption than your own interpretations.
Spell
03-08-2007, 03:55 PM
Risu, every piece of evidence used in discussion of these tournaments is theoretical, and every assessment is an assumption. You seem keen on discussing demonstrated techniques relative to each other, and that's fine. But you too have to make an awful lot of assumptions: you must still assume the relative strengths, staminas, speeds, reaction times, intellects and seal speeds of every character in the match, or at least of the two you're considering at any one moment. Whatever you decide, these are assumptions.
Of course, we need to assume, but I just don't want assumption to be the greatest part of a statement. We should base on facts and use suppositions as a support for consideration. I hate when assumptions are the biggest part of a statement. It's hart to argue about it, and it isn't easy to invalidate, because ist's like a conversation about colors between 2 blind people. We can't prove each other rights.
I'm tired with it :cry
Gooba
03-08-2007, 03:56 PM
I hate when assumptions are the biggest part of a statement. Me too, but when the character hasn't been explored very well in actual fights it is unavoidable.
Spell
03-08-2007, 03:59 PM
Me too, but when the character hasn't been explored very well in actual fights it is unavoidable.
Then I don't know, maybe we should exclude some of them, or make some restrictions? I like Grrblt's rule but if you don't want it then I won't argue. :(
Gooba
03-08-2007, 04:11 PM
What I am saying is with regards to certain characters there is far more info outside of fights than inside, so the debate has to lean that way. Don't make battles with them if you don't want assumptions. However, if they are in a battle, to ignore the majority of the information we have on them just because it is more speculative is horribly unfair and leads to a worthless conclusion.
I think for a tournament like this banning people like AL, Sandaime, Jiraiya, and even Oro (haven't seen much out of a serious Oro /w arms besides the Hokage summon) would make a whole lot of sense.
The main thing I want you to see is that when talking about Sandaime you are making exactly as many assumptions as me, they are just of a different form.
Plus, every fight is full of assumptions, even when you restrict it to purely the jutsus we have seen in battle. I think of all the characters Sasori vs Naruto would probably include the most information about their skills which we could rely on hard jutsu evidence with almost no assumptions of the type you hate. However, even in this you need to assume a lot of things. Saying that Naruto's Kage Bunshin would allow him to fight the puppets while being safe from the poison assumes that his skill level is capable of fighting the puppets. We have to estimate his speed and skill for that, and when matching them up relative to each other we don't get some standard measuring tape. We take what we can from an imperfect system to extrapolate what would occur if they fought. I agree that the assumptions made when we have seen their arsenal are smaller than those when we haven't, but they are still assumptions none the less.
This place eats, breaths, and sleeps speculation, assumption, and conjecture.
If you don't like that, make all of these shinobi real, and let us perform scientific experiments on them for a while to gauge their abilities. Even then, we would still make assumptions when matching them up but we would be closer. Anything less than making them real and having them live out these battles is just assumptions on top of evidence.
Sasori
03-08-2007, 06:21 PM
^ Gooba can't u use your Smod powers to bring ninjas to life :(?
Gooba
03-08-2007, 06:22 PM
Nah, that is reserved for admins.
This trial tournament went better than I expected though, despite the constant changing of tiers and complaining.
We're not that far from a well-made list, so we will have to figure that out in a couple more days.
We should probably concentrate a bit on the final match, eh? :amuse
Redux-shika boo
03-08-2007, 07:11 PM
I still think my tier list pwns.smile-big Although I don't think Sandaime can beat Orochimaru, Itachi, Jiraiya, Kakuzu, or Gaara, but can at best put up a fight. So actually, he's more mid kage... I should correct that. Heck, even if you assume Sandaime has alot of the stuff shown already by many diffrent ninja's, which is reasonable, he still can't take them. So yeah, maybe if more people just toke those other extremly badass people they'd find Sandaime getting handhandled.
-Personally, as long as I can get yamato, kidomaru, ino, and shino on my team I don't care about points. Actually, Chiyo, Haku, Tayuya, Dosu, and Chunnin exam sasuke would be awesome too. Wait, another good combo would be .......
Comic Book Guy
03-08-2007, 08:12 PM
Thanks CBG, got any suggestions for the real tourney coming up soon?
How are you organizing the bid rounds?
Also, when does Captain America #25 come out? I don't like seeing him in jail.
Came out yesterday.
well in the trial tournament... we had a Tier List. It was broken up into points where the High Kage is worth the most, and the Low Genin is worth the least. And then, each participant is allowed 50 points to "buy" their characters for their team. I mean, we MIGHT change the point system, but for now we're trying to agree on a good tier list. The winner of the Trial Tournament is going to have the final say in the tier list.
Comic Book Guy
03-09-2007, 01:56 PM
Understandable.
For a tier tourny, it's best to gather all the characters that'll be participating, and arrange them into reasonable tiers. Then you have the points and all.
Though, what about the bidding rounds? How are you going to organize that?
Understandable.
For a tier tourny, it's best to gather all the characters that'll be participating, and arrange them into reasonable tiers. Then you have the points and all.
Though, what about the bidding rounds? How are you going to organize that?
oh. we never HAD a bidding round. u think we should? because it would be hard to figure out who gets to bid first.
i like everyone's Tier Lists. But can we break up Kimimaro into base condition, CS1, and CS2.
and he's got to be unhealthy.
Odama123
03-11-2007, 07:21 PM
I agree with Gooba.
take out sandaime oro jiriya etc.
Comic Book Guy
03-12-2007, 10:08 AM
oh. we never HAD a bidding round. u think we should? because it would be hard to figure out who gets to bid first.
Well, how did you plan to do it originally?
Spell
03-12-2007, 12:42 PM
Sorry I was almost offline for 3 days :/
@Comic Book Guy: Best way to adjust your knowledge about this tournament would be if you check first 2 threads Naruto Team Tournament - Part 1 – Discussion (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=179756)
and
Naruto Trial Tournament Registration (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=180828)
I think for a tournament like this banning people like AL, Sandaime, Jiraiya, and even Oro (haven't seen much out of a serious Oro /w arms besides the Hokage summon) would make a whole lot of sense.
I agree.
The main thing I want you to see is that when talking about Sandaime you are making exactly as many assumptions as me, they are just of a different form.
No, that's not true.In every single statement I'm striving to confine assumptions to minimum. You are basing more on assumptions rather than facts we have seen.
Let me show you the comparison of our assumptions:
Jutsus:
I assume Sarutobi knows a lot of usefull jutsus, but only on comparable level to those he used during a fight with Oro, and he is not able to use any more poerfull ones because of his old age.
You assume he knows a tons of more powerfull jutsus and is able to use them all.
Speed:
I assume he isn't faster than during fight with Oro, it seems logic to me. In databook it's stated his speed is comparable to Kakashi's pre-timeskip. Post-timeskip Kakashi's speed was nothing compared to Kakuzu's (and it's not only raw speed but also jutsu speed).
I don't know what you assume but it seems to me you believe Sarutobi could be faster than we have seen. Maybe he is able to use gates.
Taijutsu:
I assume he isn't better at taijutsu than Kakashi.
You assume he could stand against Tsunade.
Strategy:
I assume his battle inteligence is high and considerable because of his experience. But I doubt it's way better than Kakashi's and for sure it's lower than Shikamaru's.
It's not like I'm saying you're dead wrong, IMO you just give your believes too much credit. You see I believe Tobi is Obito and I have tons of facts supporting this theory, but I never use my believes as a factor in battles.
______________
I improved my trial tier list also. I didn't placed Jiraiya, Kisame, Itachi Sarutobi etc. You know why.
I didn't changed my point system, it seems it worked well, but if you got some proposals - post them :)
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Tsunade
Naruto (after wind training)
Low Kage – 25 points
Kakashi w/ MS
Gai w/ 6 gates
Hidan
30% Itachi
30% Kisame
Chiyo
KN3
High Jounin – 20 points
Kakashi w/o MS
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Healthy Kimimaro
Zabuza
KN1 Post
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Asuma
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Drugged Jiraiya
Oro with no hands
Low Jounin - 10 points
Sick Kimimaro
Post Shikamaru
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Shizune
Pre Gaara (Naruto fight)
Pre Naruto (Gaara fight)
That's the main point. Lower tiers could be taken from Kyon's list or this.
It isn't too important.
High Chunnin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Pre Lee (exam, gates)
Drunk Lee
Mid Chunnin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Post Tenten
Jirobou (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam)
Low Chunnin – 4 points
Post Ino
Pre Lee
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Pre Sasuke (3rd round Chunnin exam)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misami (body altering guy)
Arkado Yorki (absorbing chakra guy)
Pre Chouji (SRA)
Mid Genin – 2 points
Pre Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin
Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Speed:
I assume he isn't faster than during fight with Oro, it seems logic to me. In databook it's stated his speed is comparable to Kakashi's pre-timeskip. Post-timeskip Kakashi's speed was nothing compared to Kakuzu's (and it's not only raw speed but also jutsu speed).I don't know exactly how fast he is, but he isn't slow, and his stats are maxed out in every single stat that hasn't been affected by his old age. That tells me something. Oh, and Kakashi has a 4.5 in Taijutsu. XD
I don't know what you assume but it seems to me you believe Sarutobi could be faster than we have seen. Maybe he is able to use gates.
It's also been stated in the databook that Jounins can normally open the first gates, and Sarutobi is one of the most powerful ninjas from Konoha.
Taijutsu:
I assume he isn't better at taijutsu than Kakashi.
You assume he could stand against Tsunade.You talked about the databook, Kakashi has a 4.5 while Sarutobi has a 5.
Strategy:
I assume his battle inteligence is high and considerable because of his experience. But I doubt it's way better than Kakashi's and for sure it's lower than Shikamaru's.Shikamaru's smarter than Sarutobi, but Sarutobi has been the Hokage for a long time (as if a normal Jounin doesn't gain enough battle experience during a decade). I think he can manage against a 15-yearold chuunin, doesn't matter if it's a genius.
It's not like I'm saying you're dead wrong, IMO you just give your believes too much credit. You see I believe Tobi is Obito and I have tons of facts supporting this theory, but I never use my believes as a factor in battles.So now you're comparing Old Sarutobi being a great ninja to Tobi being Obito, that makes sense.
I don't get why you have that ''no assumptions'' policy anyway (although you speculate a lot too, but I'll just skip that part). In a manga like Naruto, with lots of ninjas that we don't know a lot, don't you think it's better to have speculations based on facts/statements while debating?
It's not like you have to automatically agree with what someone else says either, if you disagree then you can explain why you disagree. There's nothing wrong with that, and that's how most of the Naruto discussions here at NF are done.
Spell
03-12-2007, 04:12 PM
It's also been stated in the databook that Jounins can normally open the first gates, and Sarutobi is one of the most powerful ninjas from Konoha.
I believe Saru was able to open all gates in his prime. But as an old man I would be far from stating he is able to do it.
You talked about the databook, Kakashi has a 4.5 while Sarutobi has a 5.Sorry my browser or firewall blocks the databook, I'm basing on my memory :/
Shikamaru's smarter than Sarutobi, but Sarutobi has been the Hokage for a long time (as if a normal Jounin doesn't gain enough battle experience during a decade). I think he can manage against a 15-yearold chuunin, doesn't matter if it's a genius.
Saru hasn't shown anything that could make me think that way.
So now you're comparing Old Sarutobi being a great ninja to Tobi being Obito, that makes sense.First of all I don't doubt Sarutobi is a great ninja. Second - Tobi is Obito is an assumption as good as Sarutobi knows some jutsus that could allow him win against for example Sasori.
I don't get why you have that ''no assumptions'' policy anyway (although you speculate a lot too, but I'll just skip that part).
]You don't get my point.
In a manga like Naruto, with lots of ninjas that we don't know a lot, don't you think it's better to have speculations based on facts/statements while debating? Exactly, I'm talking about it. Base your assumptions on statements but do not go too far.
Ps. Kuya I made a directory of tournament in Battledome Indax thread, hope you will like it. :)
I believe Saru was able to open all gates in his prime. But as an old man I would be far from stating he is able to do it.
I was just answering to you when you said ''maybe he can use gates''. And don't take it too far, I don't think that he could open all of the eight gates in his prime, that takes practice... You need to focus on taijutsu and the gates like Gai and Lee do.
Sorry my browser or firewall blocks the databook, I'm basing on my memory :/Well, you were the one talking about presenting your facts. XD
Saru hasn't shown anything that could make me think that way.
First of all I don't doubt Sarutobi is a great ninja. Second - Tobi is Obito is an assumption as good as Sarutobi knows some jutsus that could allow him win against for example Sasori.It's an assumption as good as Sarutobi potentially defeating Sasori? Very much doubt it, while Sasori got a big fight showing off a lot of what he can do. Sarutobi only got a short fight, with a lot of hype (like when it was said that he's currently the strongest out of the five Kages).
Now, while I may think that Sarutobi would probably lose against Sasori unless he uses Shiki Fuujin with as many Kage Bunshins as he can (and he still might fail), saying that he can beat Sasori is a smaller assumption than saying that Tobi is Obito by far.
You don't get my point.
Exactly, I'm talking about it. Base your assumptions on statements but do not go too far.How far is too far? I feel like you can speculate if you want to, and that the others can prove you wrong. I don't know exactly how strong Gooba thinks that Old Sarutobi is, but I speak for myself and no, I don't think that I've gone too far.
Spell
03-13-2007, 08:30 AM
I was just answering to you when you said ''maybe he can use gates''. And don't take it too far, I don't think that he could open all of the eight gates in his prime, that takes practice... You need to focus on taijutsu and the gates like Gai and Lee do.
This is agood opportunity to explain what I mean.
I believe prime Sarutobi would be able to open most of gates and maybe even all. That's my personal evaluation, but I never use it in battledome threads because I have no evidence to support and prove it. This is a 'big" assumption and I went far.
Here is the next, restricted assumption which I use in battledome fights:
We have evidence most of jounins are able to open 1st gate, so it's logic Sarutobi is able to open it, and furthermore since he is a Hokake, he is probably able to open some more. But we can't state how many.
I hope you understand my point now.
Well, you were the one talking about presenting your facts. XD
Sorry :cry Could you plese give me a link to other than leafninja databook, I would be grateful.
It's an assumption as good as Sarutobi potentially defeating Sasori? Very much doubt it, while Sasori got a big fight showing off a lot of what he can do. Sarutobi only got a short fight, with a lot of hype (like when it was said that he's currently the strongest out of the five Kages).
The fact it was stated that "hokage is the strongest of all five kages" is an generalization. We can refer to it, but we can base on it when considering a single person.
Furthermore it was said that 'kage is a strongest shinobi in a village', it's a generalization too, and can be easily invalidated - Sasori (not kage) defeated Sandaime Kazekage.
That's why generalizations can't be used a s a main factor in battles.
Now, while I may think that Sarutobi would probably lose against Sasori unless he uses Shiki Fuujin with as many Kage Bunshins as he can (and he still might fail), saying that he can beat Sasori is a smaller assumption than saying that Tobi is Obito by far.
No it's not. There isn't more evidence he could beat Sasori than Tobi is Obito.
How far is too far? I feel like you can speculate if you want to, and that the others can prove you wrong.
Explained in the beginning of this post.
I don't know exactly how strong Gooba thinks that Old Sarutobi is, but I speak for myself and no, I don't think that I've gone too far.
As Gooba stated by himself: assumptions concerned Sarutobi are about 70% of his statements. It's too much for me. IMO assumptions should be restricted to max30/40%.
Gooba
03-13-2007, 08:44 AM
As Gooba stated by himself: assumptions concerned Sarutobi are about 70% of his statements. It's too much for me. IMO assumptions should be restricted to max30/40%.You can't restrict the amount of assumption needed to analyze a character. That 70% doesn't come from us choosing, but the amount of info Kishi gave us. What you should say instead of restricting assumptions to 30%/40%, is that we should restrict the tournament to characters comprised by less than 30%/40% assumption.
Spell
03-13-2007, 08:56 AM
You can't restrict the amount of assumption needed to analyze a character. That 70% doesn't come from us choosing, but the amount of info Kishi gave us.
I think we can, the way I stated in the beginning of my previous post, but ok. I agree with this:
What you should say instead of restricting assumptions to 30%/40%, is that we should restrict the tournament to characters comprised by less than 30%/40% assumption.
It would make the discussion a lot more simple.
CrazyMoronX
03-13-2007, 08:56 AM
I think we either need to split up the divisions into 2 tournaments, or get rid of the pre-skip genins altogether.
They were never used not once during the tournament, as they were powerless to do anything, and just there to take up the excess points.
Spell
03-13-2007, 09:01 AM
Maybe we should add some strengthenings to buy instaed of useless genins. Like some sand for gaara for 1 point. Some water for Zabuza/Kisame, some medicine for Sakura/Kabuto/Tsunade, ramen for Naruto...etc
What do you think?
CrazyMoronX
03-13-2007, 09:06 AM
Maybe we should add some strengthenings to buy instaed of useless genins. Like some sand for gaara for 1 point. Some water for Zabuza/Kisame, some medicine for Sakura/Kabuto/Tsunade, ramen for Naruto...etc
What do you think?
Seems better than a Ino pre-skip. Especially as the locales could adversely effect someone like Gaara and Kisame (though Kisame seems to have no problem without water).
niyesuH
03-13-2007, 09:40 AM
i think its best if we let things out like Jiriaya ( drugged ) or Orochimaru without hands
because we dont have any much idea what they are capable of doing in those forms.. first Jiraiya couldnt summon frog boss but later he could so its too much confusing
Maybe we should add some strengthenings to buy instaed of useless genins. Like some sand for gaara for 1 point. Some water for Zabuza/Kisame, some medicine for Sakura/Kabuto/Tsunade, ramen for Naruto...etc
What do you think?
Or more points, for example the setting to be changed to the desert, especially when you have Gaara on your team.
It's loads better than having Konohomaru who's just asking to be ignored.
Or adding soldier pills, blood clotting pills, etc. for 1 point
Spell
03-13-2007, 10:55 AM
Seems better than a Ino pre-skip. Especially as the locales could adversely effect someone like Gaara and Kisame (though Kisame seems to have no problem without water).
Yeah maybe Kisame doesn't need it :P
btw nice avi :D
i think its best if we let things out like Jiriaya ( drugged ) or Orochimaru without hands
because we dont have any much idea what they are capable of doing in those forms.. first Jiraiya couldnt summon frog boss but later he could so its too much confusing
Well we have seen them in sannin fight, but I agree we don't know much what they are able to do.
Edit: and I agree with you Space.
Odama123
03-14-2007, 06:09 PM
Question: Kakashi Ms < Tsunade?
If Kakashi uses his mangeykyou on Tsunade while she's atacking him (taijustu) she would definitely die. I think they should be on equal tiers.
His mangekyou is useful on basically all kage levels except for sasori
Spell
03-15-2007, 07:23 AM
Question: Kakashi Ms < Tsunade?
If Kakashi uses his mangeykyou on Tsunade while she's atacking him (taijustu) she would definitely die. I think they should be on equal tiers.
His mangekyou is useful on basically all kage levels except for sasori
The point is Kakashi needs to charge it and use seals, which takes time. I don't know if he is able to do it fast enough to use it on attacking Tsunade.
Redux-shika boo
03-15-2007, 04:34 PM
I improved my trial tier list also. I didn't placed Jiraiya, Kisame, Itachi Sarutobi etc. You know why.
I improved my trial tier list also. I didn't placed Jiraiya, Kisame, Itachi Sarutobi etc. You know why.
Jiraiya and 100% Kisame is understandable, but only because they're full capabilties aren't know. However, in Jiraiya's case if we just go of what was explictly shown I can't see how anyone wouldn't put him as High kage.
I assume Itachi is ommitted because he is too broken to take part in the tournie. Otherwise, he has shown more then enough to be high kage, if not the person at the top of the list.
Sarutobi I presume you ommitted because of the inability of people to see eye to eye on his abilities....
I didn't changed my point system, it seems it worked well, but if you got some proposals - post them :)
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Tsunade
Naruto (after wind training)
Low Kage – 25 points
Kakashi w/ MS
Gai w/ 6 gates
Hidan
30% Itachi
30% Kisame
Chiyo
KN3
High Jounin – 20 points
Kakashi w/o MS
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Healthy Kimimaro
Zabuza
KN1 Post
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Asuma
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Drugged Jiraiya
Oro with no hands
Low Jounin - 10 points
Sick Kimimaro
Post Shikamaru
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Shizune
Pre Gaara (Naruto fight)
Pre Naruto (Gaara fight)
That's the main point. Lower tiers could be taken from Kyon's list or this.
It isn't too important.[/SPOILER]
I'm not really in the mood to adress every single person, so I'll only comment on the higher ones.
1. Why is Gaara not high kage???? He is clearly high kage.
2. Kakashi is underated and subsequently Naruto is being overated in comparison to him. In short, it makes no sense for Naruto's rank to be completly over Kakashi. Honestly, even without Ms, Kakashi is Naruto match if not is superior in terms of overall usefullness and one on one abilties. In fact, I find this notion of rating Kakashi with or without ms absurd. It is only one technique and takes ample time to charge. Granted it is a great technique, but Kakashi is no worse for wear without it. Anyway, if you're so 'explicit' evidence focused, I'd think you would see Kakashi is on par and or above Naruto. So, they should be in the same rank. Incidentally, they should both be low kage.
3. Hidan is just being grossly over ranked. Yes, he's an akatsuki and his abilty allows him to just stand and take alot of jutsu's, but he has not shown enough to be in contention with the low kage's. In fact, he is likely high end mid jounin and or pushing the high jounin category. On this point, Asuma is not below Hidan in any great degree... and in a one on one fight I'd even lean on Asuma. Second, Hidan is not within the upper limits of Naruto verse speed. That is to say, he is fast for a jounin, but nothing more. Thrid, his immortality is not without fault. In short, if he is dealt good decapations type damage he will be hindered. Fourth, and lastly, Hidan is strictly limited to kunai's and his scythe in order to attack. Hence, he is primarily a close-mid range fighter. And, this is trully limiting for him because his attack speed was shown as being one that any jounin can dodge if not 'surprised'. One thing I can say on Hidan though is that I think he's shown good agility and relatively competent taijutu. Anyway, Hidan's skill set limits him even more so then Kabuto in a fight. In short, Kabuto can literally kill with a hit... whereas Hidan's drawning of blood and ritual is actually somewhat impractical in a 'real non-plot ridden fight', and this is even in the context of a one on one battle. So really, in the sense of a one on one fight Hidan is Mid Jounin in the ranking, but in the sense of a team battle he is high jounin in usefullness... when compared to others inin and above rank.
4. Kurenai really hasn't shown that much, but based on what she's shown she would be low jounin. Basically because she is relatively fast, and has high level genjutsu... of course the assumed basic ninja techs... but nothing else.
---
Edit: Outside of the above and confined more to what is being discussed, I actually think someone like pretimeskip Ino can be usefull if you pick the right people. I also think the same can be said for some other low end genin. Although certain ones are really entirely useless.
Spell
03-16-2007, 12:47 PM
Jiraiya and 100% Kisame is understandable, but only because they're full capabilties aren't know. However, in Jiraiya's case if we just go of what was explictly shown I can't see how anyone wouldn't put him as High kage.
I assume Itachi is ommitted because he is too broken to take part in the tournie. Otherwise, he has shown more then enough to be high kage, if not the person at the top of the list.
Sarutobi I presume you ommitted because of the inability of people to see eye to eye on his abilities....
Well I could put them in the list, but I just want to avoid purposeless quarrels.
1. Gaara's power depends on the amount of sand he is able to use in a moment. If the location is desert he can be indeed considered as a high kage. In any other his power is a little restricted and I doubt he could be able to beat any of the three shinobi I listed in the high tier.
2. I could agree. I'm quite Narutard so my believes could be a little distorted.
3. It's a result of consensus. Grrblt wanted to put him in even higher tier, so I decided not to list him in a lower one.
4. Hm, seems we have fundation to exclude her from tournament. But it should be considered. I wish other said something.
sorry i haven't been concentratin on the tournament. i always helping the OB kick the Blender's ass in the Civil War that just went on. Soooo has a tier list been decided yet? and do people still wanna go on with this tournament???
To help, here's how my tier list would go.
High Kage
Old Sarutobi w/ Enma
Orochimaru w/ Kusanagi (Healthy)
Kakuzu unleashed
Sasori
Mid Kage
Deidara
Kazekage Gaara (pre-extraction)
Tsunade
Low Kage
Chiyo
6 Gate Gai (limited time with gates)
MS Kakashi
Hidan
High Jounin
30% Kisame Clone
30 % Itachi Clone
Kakashi (Pre)
Gai (pre) (1 gate max)
5 Gated Lee (Limited time)
Mid Jounin
Kimimaro CS2
Kabuto
Gaara (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Zabuza
Yamato
Asuma
Low Jounin
Orochimaru w/ No Arms
Drugged Jiraiya
Post Shikamaru w/ chakra blades
Kimimaro CS1
Kurenai
Drunk Lee
High Chuunin
Naruto Post (no Kyuubi, no clone training)
Kimimaro CS1 (Sick)
Sakura Post-Skip
CS2 Sasuke (Valley of the End)
KN1 Naruto (Valley of the End)
Neji (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Temari (Sauke Retrieval Arc)
Kankuro (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Kidomaru CS2
Sakon/Ukon CS2
Tayuya CS2
Mid Chuunin
Sasuke (Final Chuunin Exam)
Gaara (Final Chuunin Exam)
Unweighted Lee
Kimimaro (sick, no CS)
Chouji 3rd Pill
Haku
Jiroubo CS2
Shikamaru (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Kidomaru CS1
Sakon/Ukon CS1
Tayuya CS1
Low Chuunin
Sasuke (Final Chuunin Exam)
Jiroubo CS1
Kiba (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Shino (Final Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (Final Chuunin Exam)
Neji (Final Chuunin Exam)
Shikamaru (Final Chuunin Exam)
Temari (Final Chuunin Exam)
Sasuke (3rd Chuunin Exam)
High Genin
Lee w/ weights
Dosu
Jiroubo
Kankuro (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Kiba (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Zaku
Sasuke (Zabuza Arc)
Mid Genin
Hinata (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (Zabuza Arc)
Kin
Low Genin
Chouji (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Ino (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Sakura (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Spell
03-18-2007, 05:06 AM
I wouldnt' list Gated Lee so high, he wasn't able to beat Gaara listed in mid chuunin. And he would have no chances to beat Pre-Kakashi.
I would also exclude Sarutobi as Gooba stated.
Grrblt
03-18-2007, 06:39 AM
3. Hidan is just being grossly over ranked. Yes, he's an akatsuki and his abilty allows him to just stand and take alot of jutsu's, but he has not shown enough to be in contention with the low kage's. In fact, he is likely high end mid jounin and or pushing the high jounin category. On this point, Asuma is not below Hidan in any great degree... and in a one on one fight I'd even lean on Asuma. Second, Hidan is not within the upper limits of Naruto verse speed. That is to say, he is fast for a jounin, but nothing more. Thrid, his immortality is not without fault. In short, if he is dealt good decapations type damage he will be hindered. Fourth, and lastly, Hidan is strictly limited to kunai's and his scythe in order to attack. Hence, he is primarily a close-mid range fighter. And, this is trully limiting for him because his attack speed was shown as being one that any jounin can dodge if not 'surprised'. One thing I can say on Hidan though is that I think he's shown good agility and relatively competent taijutu. Anyway, Hidan's skill set limits him even more so then Kabuto in a fight. In short, Kabuto can literally kill with a hit... whereas Hidan's drawning of blood and ritual is actually somewhat impractical in a 'real non-plot ridden fight', and this is even in the context of a one on one battle. So really, in the sense of a one on one fight Hidan is Mid Jounin in the ranking, but in the sense of a team battle he is high jounin in usefullness... when compared to others inin and above rank.
Hidan's rank was, at least by me, determined how he did in a no preparations battle. He faced Asuma and took him out like a child and by that alone, he has to be higher ranked than Asuma by at the very least one tier. It's true that Hidan's power drops dramatically against an opponent that knows about his abilities, but almost no ninjas in this tournament do (only PS Shika and Asuma). And to top it off, no prep time is allowed for Shika so there's no squirting blood on Hidan's weapon to fool him.
Hidan is strong for exactly the same reason that made him lose against Shika in the end, and the reason Kakuzu kicked Kakashi in the stomach: you perform an attack that you have used countless times and you know it has killed your enemy, so you turn your back on him and focus on other things. You think you've killed Hidan and he just attacks your back again. This effect is only amplified by the fact that they are team battles, so whoever deals a mortal strike to Hidan has to proceed to attack other targets.
Difference between Hidan and Kabuto is, besides the whole immortal thing, that people know he's a medic, they know what medic attacks do. People don't know what a scratch from a scythe can do. Also, both use physical attacks but Kabuto is poor in taijutsu while Hidan is very good.
I wouldnt' list Gated Lee so high, he wasn't able to beat Gaara listed in mid chuunin. And he would have no chances to beat Pre-Kakashi.
I would also exclude Sarutobi as Gooba stated.
Sounds reasonable. And u were one of the finalists. So let's get on wit the the tier list. If SNY or Martryn don't participate, then the tier list is on u. If u need help juss ask homie.
Spell
03-18-2007, 08:22 AM
Sounds reasonable. And u were one of the finalists. So let's get on wit the the tier list. If SNY or Martryn don't participate, then the tier list is on u. If u need help juss ask homie.
Well if someone has got any ideas what to change in my list, it would be nice if he posted them. I also want to take it under deeper consideration, the tier list should be well balanced.
kojak488
03-18-2007, 11:09 AM
I don't really like the idea of not having a healthy Jeraiya but having a healthy Kimmimaro. We don't know the effects that being sick had on Kimmimaro (IE, would he be 25% or 180% better healthy), whereas with Jeraiya we have a more proper gauge on his healthy strength. If we use a healthy Kimmimaro, then we should at least have a health Jeraiya. Although, given the nature of this tournament, I personally think that we should only use characters whose strength is well documented. That way there isn't any real speculation on strength.
Sharingan No Yondaime
03-18-2007, 12:08 PM
couple things..
orochimaru w/no arm shouldnt be that high in my opinion...
Is rock lee with weight in high genin allowed gates?
anything besides that, im good! ill wait till you make the point system though :P
Spell
03-18-2007, 01:37 PM
@kojak488 : I agree, we could exclude healthy Kimi.
orochimaru w/no arm shouldnt be that high in my opinion...
Hm, maybe, but even without arms he was serious threatening for sannin and Naruto + Shizune. But we should consider it, sure.
Is rock lee with weight in high genin allowed gates?
I didn't listed Lee in high genin :oh, ah Kuya did. Hm, for sure Kuya's intention was not to allow gates. I listed him in low chuunin, but I would like to allow Lotus for him (but with weights)
Of course we can divade him , Lee normal, Lee with weights and first gate, Lee without weights + first gate and Lee with gates.
kojak488
03-18-2007, 03:16 PM
Of course we can divade him , Lee normal, Lee with weights and first gate, Lee without weights + first gate and Lee with gates.
Again, I think it's best to avoid ambiguity. The above should be: normal Lee, Lee without weights, and Lee with gates. We have enough information on normal Lee, without weights, and with gates, but we don't really have a proper gauge, without personal opinion, of Lee using the first gate while he had weights on. At best people can only guess, which is something you want to avoid in this kind of tournament.
Spell
03-19-2007, 04:50 AM
but we don't really have a proper gauge, without personal opinion, of Lee using the first gate while he had weights on.
We have. He used it during a fight with Dosu. He opened Initial Gate.
kojak488
03-19-2007, 09:02 AM
We have. He used it during a fight with Dosu. He opened Initial Gate.
Oh, my bad. I don't really remember that fight too much so I'll take your word on it.
Gooba
03-19-2007, 08:33 PM
I'll make my tiers, and color anyone red if we know very little battle facts about them meaning we should probably leave them out.
High Kage
Old Sarutobi w/ Enma
Orochimaru w/ Kusanagi (Healthy)
Kakuzu unleashed
Sasori
Mid Kage
Deidara
Kazekage Gaara (pre-extraction)
Tsunade
Healthy Jiraiya
Hidan (drops down 2 tiers if they know about him)
Itachi
Kisame
Low Kage
Naruto (K4 or wind training)
Chiyo
6 Gate Gai (limited time with gates)
MS Kakashi
High Jounin
Orochimaru w/ No Arms
Drugged Jiraiya
30% Kisame Clone
30 % Itachi Clone
Kakashi (Pre)
Gai (pre) (1 gate max)
Asuma
Mid Jounin
Kimimaro CS2
Kabuto
Gaara (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Zabuza
Yamato
Kurenai
Low Jounin
Neji Post-Skip
Sakura Post-Skip
Naruto Post (no Kyuubi, no clone training)
5 Gated Lee (Limited time)
Post Shikamaru w/ chakra blades
Kimimaro CS1
Drunk Lee
High Chuunin
Kimimaro CS1 (Sick)
CS2 Sasuke (Valley of the End)
KN1 Naruto (Valley of the End)
Neji (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Temari (Sauke Retrieval Arc)
Kankuro (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Kidomaru CS2
Sakon/Ukon CS2
Tayuya CS2
Mid Chuunin
Sasuke (Final Chuunin Exam)
Gaara (Final Chuunin Exam)
Unweighted Lee
Kimimaro (sick, no CS)
Chouji 3rd Pill
Haku
Jiroubo CS2
Shikamaru (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Kidomaru CS1
Sakon/Ukon CS1
Tayuya CS1
Low Chuunin
Sasuke (Final Chuunin Exam)
Jiroubo CS1
Kiba (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Shino (Final Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (Final Chuunin Exam)
Neji (Final Chuunin Exam)
Shikamaru (Final Chuunin Exam)
Temari (Final Chuunin Exam)
Sasuke (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Jiroubo
High Genin
Lee w/ weights
Dosu
Kankuro (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Kiba (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Zaku
Sasuke (Zabuza Arc)
Mid Genin
Hinata (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (Zabuza Arc)
Kin
Low Genin
Chouji (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Ino (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Sakura (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Spell
03-20-2007, 06:01 AM
I could agree with your list Gooba, but I don't know why you listed Jiraiya and Itachi so low. If you put Sarutobi in the highest tier both of them would have to be there too. Look like Itachi owned Oro in few seconds with easy.
However I would exclude all of red shinobi in your list.
Ok, my improved list, changes listed in green.
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Tsunade
Low Kage – 25 points
Kakashi w/ MS
Gai w/ 6 gates
Hidan
30% Itachi
30% Kisame
Chiyo
KN3 / Naruto (after wind training)
High Jounin – 20 points
Kakashi w/o MS
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
KN1 Post
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Asuma
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Oro with no hands
Low Jounin - 10 points
Sick Kimimaro
Post Shikamaru
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Shizune
Pre Gaara (Naruto fight)
Pre Naruto (Gaara fight)
Pre Lee (exam, gates)
High Chunnin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Drunk Lee
Mid Chunnin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Post Tenten
Jirobou (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam)
Low Chunnin – 4 points
Post Ino
Pre Lee
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Pre Sasuke (3rd round Chunnin exam)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misami (body altering guy)
Arkado Yorki (absorbing chakra guy)
Pre Chouji (SRA)
Mid Genin – 2 points
Pre Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin
Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Kyuubi from makes me a little confused, don't know how to list Naruto (with FRS/ without Kyuubi form or with FRS and with Kyuubi form ???)
niyesuH
03-20-2007, 06:58 AM
This is how i would do it
note that all the characters are at their latest full strength ( except for Orochimaru )
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru ( the one vs Sarutobi )
Sasori
Kakuzu
Jiraiya
Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Tsunade
Hidan
Low Kage – 25 points
Kakashi w/ MS
Gai w/ 6 gates
Chiyo
Asuma
Kurenai
High Jounin – 20 points
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
Naruto ( wind rasengan )
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Haku
Sakura
Low Jounin - 10 points
Sick Kimimaro
Shizune
Lee
Shikamaru
Neji
Kiba
Kankuro
High Chunnin – 8 points
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Temari
Chouji
Ino
Shino
Mid Chunnin – 6 points
Tenten
Jirobou (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon
This is what i like
note: i didnt include Sasuke because i just dont know how strong he really is
Gooba
03-20-2007, 07:32 AM
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Asuma
Oro with no handsThose are the only 2 I really disagree with. I think Oro in the Sannin fight defintely looked more impressive than Gateless Gai, Yamato, Kabuto, KN1 Naruto, and Zabuza. Going by Asuma's stats (3rd only to Sandaime and Kakashi), and how he did in taijutsu against 100% Kisame I think he is also right up there with the other Elite Jounin. He is definitely above Zabuza.
Citan
03-20-2007, 07:57 AM
when does the next tournament start?
Spell
03-20-2007, 08:12 AM
Those are the only 2 I really disagree with. I think Oro in the Sannin fight defintely looked more impressive than Gateless Gai, Yamato, Kabuto, KN1 Naruto, and Zabuza. Going by Asuma's stats (3rd only to Sandaime and Kakashi), and how he did in taijutsu against 100% Kisame I think he is also right up there with the other Elite Jounin. He is definitely above Zabuza.Well I originally listed Asuma in High Jounin tier, but many disagreed with it (I don't remember who, if I recall correctly it was Grrblt (?)/ The Truth(?)). I believe Asuma would be able to beat Zabuza, but unfortunately Kishimoto exhibited him in a really bad way :/
I think we can put him in high jounin tier if others agree. However I doubt he would be able to beat Kakashi and Gai.
As for Oro I agree he is too low, I would list him in High jounin. Don't know if higher position would be wise, I think Yamato and Kabuto would be able to fight against Oro without hands as equal. But it''s debatable of course. Where would you list him?
Btw, Gooba would you like to participate :nuts
when does the next tournament start?
Well, we have to estabilish the tier list, then Kuya will create Tournament Registration thread. When all participants signs up, we will start :).
Would you like to be a part of it?
Citan
03-20-2007, 08:31 AM
yeah i would like to participate. i wasnt a member of the forums till after the trial one started it looks pretty fun :)
Gooba
03-20-2007, 08:36 AM
Well I originally listed Asuma in High Jounin tier, but many disagreed with it (I don't remember who, if I recall correctly it was Grrblt (?)/ The Truth(?)). I believe Asuma would be able to beat Zabuza, but unfortunately Kishimoto exhibited him in a really bad way :/
I think we can put him in high jounin tier if others agree. However I doubt he would be able to beat Kakashi and Gai.I think that the whole Hidan situation is just so unfair to him. Because of how he works, he is like a mid-Kage if you don't know about him, but a mid-Jounin if you do and have prep time. He thrives on the assumptions everyone makes, such as getting a scratch is not bad, or that decapitation would win a fight. Anyone would think that, and so almost anyone would die. Then, if you do know to avoid those, you get a huge advantage against him since he doesn't really have many other tricks. He is like a magician, amazing if you haven't seen how the trick works, pretty dull when you do. Because of that, a low Jounin was able to take him out while Asuma lost to him.
I think against Gai/Kakashi he might lose, but it would be a pretty long close fight, I see those three as about equals with Kakashi w/o MS as a little over the other 2 in terms of overall ninja ability.
As for Oro I agree he is too low, I would list him in High jounin. Don't know if higher position would be wise, I think Yamato and Kabuto would be able to fight against Oro without hands as equal. But it''s debatable of course. Where would you list him?I'd list him as High Jounin. I think he would probably be about as good as Kakashi w/o MS, if not even a little better. I'm not too sure about him vs Kakshi, but I am fairly sure he should be above KN1 and Zabuza.
I'm still debating participating. I'll get back to you after this is finalized and registration starts. :P
CrazyMoronX
03-20-2007, 08:45 AM
I'm liking Gooba's list the most, so far. I have nothing else to add! :nuts
Oh, yeah, I want to join in this one again once the time rolls around.
Spell
03-20-2007, 08:46 AM
I think that the whole Hidan situation is just so unfair to him. I agree :/
Because of how he works, he is like a mid-Kage if you don't know about him, but a mid-Jounin if you do and have prep time. He thrives on the assumptions everyone makes, such as getting a scratch is not bad, or that decapitation would win a fight. Anyone would think that, and so almost anyone would die. Then, if you do know to avoid those, you get a huge advantage against him since he doesn't really have many other tricks. He is like a magician, amazing if you haven't seen how the trick works, pretty dull when you do. Because of that, a low Jounin was able to take him out while Asuma lost to him.
Maybe we should list Hidan A (opponents wouldn't know about his abilities) in a mid Kage and Hidan B (opponents would know about it / opponents know as much as it's stated in manga).
I'd list him as High Jounin. I think he would probably be about as good as Kakashi w/o MS, if not even a little better. I'm not too sure about him vs Kakshi, but I am fairly sure he should be above KN1 and Zabuza.Ok, seems we agree.
I'm still debating participating. I'll get back to you after this is finalized and registration starts. :P
It would be great if you participated. There won't be Sarutobi (probably) so we there won't be so big dissension :P
yeah i would like to participate. i wasnt a member of the forums till after the trial one started it looks pretty fun:leepose
kojak488
03-20-2007, 09:42 AM
Are we going to be able to plead our case for each battle? I didn't see that in the last tournament and it seems really important to me. Personally, and like others, I'll design my team to fight a certain way and would appreciate the chance to explain how my strategy should work against the opponent. It should work a lot better than letting people see things the wrong way at the start.
Citan
03-20-2007, 06:05 PM
I'll make my tiers, and color anyone red if we know very little battle facts about them meaning we should probably leave them out.
High Kage
Old Sarutobi w/ Enma
Orochimaru w/ Kusanagi (Healthy)
Kakuzu unleashed
Sasori
Mid Kage
Deidara
Kazekage Gaara (pre-extraction)
Tsunade
Healthy Jiraiya
Hidan (drops down 2 tiers if they know about him)
Itachi
Kisame
Low Kage
Naruto (K4 or wind training)
Chiyo
6 Gate Gai (limited time with gates)
MS Kakashi
High Jounin
Orochimaru w/ No Arms
Drugged Jiraiya
30% Kisame Clone
30 % Itachi Clone
Kakashi (Pre)
Gai (pre) (1 gate max)
Asuma
Mid Jounin
Kimimaro CS2
Kabuto
Gaara (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Zabuza
Yamato
Kurenai
Low Jounin
Neji Post-Skip
Sakura Post-Skip
Naruto Post (no Kyuubi, no clone training)
5 Gated Lee (Limited time)
Post Shikamaru w/ chakra blades
Kimimaro CS1
Drunk Lee
High Chuunin
Kimimaro CS1 (Sick)
CS2 Sasuke (Valley of the End)
KN1 Naruto (Valley of the End)
Neji (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Temari (Sauke Retrieval Arc)
Kankuro (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Kidomaru CS2
Sakon/Ukon CS2
Tayuya CS2
Mid Chuunin
Sasuke (Final Chuunin Exam)
Gaara (Final Chuunin Exam)
Unweighted Lee
Kimimaro (sick, no CS)
Chouji 3rd Pill
Haku
Jiroubo CS2
Shikamaru (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Kidomaru CS1
Sakon/Ukon CS1
Tayuya CS1
Low Chuunin
Sasuke (Final Chuunin Exam)
Jiroubo CS1
Kiba (Sasuke Retrieval Arc)
Shino (Final Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (Final Chuunin Exam)
Neji (Final Chuunin Exam)
Shikamaru (Final Chuunin Exam)
Temari (Final Chuunin Exam)
Sasuke (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Jiroubo
High Genin
Lee w/ weights
Dosu
Kankuro (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Kiba (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Zaku
Sasuke (Zabuza Arc)
Mid Genin
Hinata (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Naruto (Zabuza Arc)
Kin
Low Genin
Chouji (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Ino (3rd Chuunin Exam)
Sakura (3rd Chuunin Exam)
shouldnt naruto windtraining/kn4 be higher since he defeated kakazu and was on par with oro
I think its a great idea, but you need to simplify.
Spell
03-21-2007, 05:10 AM
@Kojak488: I always wait with my statement until both participants post their own. I think it would be reasonable if all voters do the same.
Ok, so the list so far:
High Kage – 40 points
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kakuzu
Mid Kage – 32 points
Gaara w/ Shukaku
Deidara
Tsunade
Hidan A ???
Low Kage – 25 points
Kakashi w/ MS
Gai w/ 6 gates
30% Itachi
30% Kisame
Chiyo
KN3 / Naruto (after wind training) ??
High Jounin – 20 points
Kakashi w/o MS
Gai w/o gates
Yamato
Kabuto
Zabuza
KN1 Post
Oro with no hands [?]
Asuma[?]
Mid Jounin – 15 points
Kurenai
Gaara (SRA)
Hidan B???
Low Jounin - 10 points
Sick Kimimaro
Post Shikamaru
KN1 Naruto (pre)
CS2 Sasuke (pre)
Shizune
Pre Gaara (Naruto fight)
Pre Naruto (Gaara fight)
Pre Lee (exam, gates)
High Chunnin – 8 points
Post Sakura
Kidomaro (CS2)
Tayuya (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (CS2)
Pre Kankuro (SRA)
Pre Temari (SRA)
Pre Chouji (red pill)
Pre Neji (SRA)
Kamizuki Izumo
Hagane Kotetsu
Drunk Lee
Mid Chunnin – 6 points
Post Chouji
Post Tenten
Jirobou (CS2)
Sakon/Ukon (normal)
Tayuya (CS1)
Kidomaro (CS1)
Pre Chouji (yellow pill)
Pre Kiba (SRA)
Pre Gaara (Chunnin preliminaries)
Pre Neji (Chunnin exam)
Naruto (final exam)
Sasuke(final exam)
Low Chunnin – 4 points
Post Ino
Pre Lee
Tayuya (normal)
Kidomaro (normal)
Jirobou (CS1)
Pre Sasuke (3rd round Chunnin exam)
Pre Naruto (exam)
Pre Kankuro (Chunnin exam)
Pre Temari (Chunnin exam)
Pre Shino (exam)
Pre Shikamaru
Pre Chouji (green pill)
Dosu
Lee with weights, Initial Gate
High Genin – 3 points
Pre Sasuke (zabuza arc)
Zaku
Hinata
Kiba
Pre Tenten
Tsurugi Misami (body altering guy)
Arkado Yorki (absorbing chakra guy)
Pre Chouji (SRA)
Mid Genin – 2 points
Pre Naruto (zabuza arc)
Kin
Low Genin - 1 point
Pre Sakura
Pre Ino
Pre Chouji
Redux-shika boo
03-21-2007, 07:17 AM
How in the hell did Hidan go up to Mid Kage ? Someone please explain how Hidan deserves to be above Kakashi, Chiyo, Yamato, Zabuza, Gated Gai, and the 30% clones ? Seriously, I have no intention of picking Hidan at all either, I just can't understand this gross overestimation of him. I mean, Mid kage.
- No love for the sharigan crew I see. Itachi !!! Post Sasuke!!!.:cry
Meh, it's all good, but I honestly don't see how they haven't shown enough to be ranked. But I suppose ommitting them is necessary... because their so overpowered:P
Finally, where's the ninja who killed Obito in the list? C'mon, that guy needs to be included! :nod .
-Other then that the list seems accurate. Although I would still dispute the placement of about four people vehemently. No point in getting into that though.:oh
So is the tier list almost ready? Let's try and have it done in a couple days so we can get the tournament going. I'll be on after today cuz it's my birthday and i think i'm going outer island to Maui so i won't be on the computer. So try and have it done maybe by the 23rd k? THANKS EVERYONE. and to SNY... u got the final say remember.
Grrblt
03-21-2007, 08:05 AM
I'd like to get out the question, is everyone happy with how much the tiers cost? Not so much as who fits in what category, but is a high Kage worth 2 High Jounin etc?
How in the hell did Hidan go up to Mid Kage ? Someone please explain how Hidan deserves to be above Kakashi, Chiyo, Yamato, Zabuza, Gated Gai, and the 30% clones ? Seriously, I have no intention of picking Hidan at all either, I just can't understand this gross overestimation of him. I mean, Mid kage.
It's not a gross overestimation. He's that good. You stab him in the guts, you think he's dead, you turn away. Then he stabs you in the gut and then he stabs himself in the heart. Unlike him, you don't survive.
Spell
03-21-2007, 11:49 AM
How in the hell did Hidan go up to Mid Kage ? Someone please explain how Hidan deserves to be above Kakashi, Chiyo, Yamato, Zabuza, Gated Gai, and the 30% clones ? Seriously, I have no intention of picking Hidan at all either, I just can't understand this gross overestimation of him. I mean, Mid kage.
Looka at the tier one more time. As you can see I distracted Hidan:
Hidan A - mid kage - Estabilishing: opponents don't his ability.
Hidan B - mid jounin - Estabilishing: opponents know his ability.
I think it's reasonable idea.
- No love for the sharigan crew I see. Itachi !!! Post Sasuke!!!.:cry
Meh, it's all good, but I honestly don't see how they haven't shown enough to be ranked. But I suppose ommitting them is necessary... because their so overpowered:P
We still don't know much about them. But suppose there will be a big change in the tier list in the next tournament , when more info is revealed.Most High kage will have to be dropped.
Finally, where's the ninja who killed Obito in the list? C'mon, that guy needs to be included! :nod .
Well, not much info. If we include this guy we should list young Kakashi as well.
Narutofreak08
03-21-2007, 04:13 PM
how do i get in?? i would really like to play
Spell
03-21-2007, 04:28 PM
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=196492Sign up here :)
I'd like to get out the question, is everyone happy with how much the tiers cost? Not so much as who fits in what category, but is a high Kage worth 2 High Jounin etc?
Do you have an idea how to improve it? If so, post :nod
Grrblt
03-21-2007, 05:21 PM
Do you have an idea how to improve it? If so, post :nod
Not really, I think it's pretty good. Was just reminding everyone else about it.
Citan
03-21-2007, 11:57 PM
is haku not going to be on the list? and is the point total going to be upped or stay the same
Redux-shika boo
03-22-2007, 04:25 AM
I'd like to get out the question, is everyone happy with how much the tiers cost? Not so much as who fits in what category, but is a high Kage worth 2 High Jounin etc?
It's not a gross overestimation. He's that good. You stab him in the guts, you think he's dead, you turn away. Then he stabs you in the gut and then he stabs himself in the heart. Unlike him, you don't survive.
Yes it is a gross overestimation. Hidan is in no way whatsosever a tier above Kakashi or Chiyo, and he is not even on par with them. Incidentally, I still find it quite strange that Kakashi is getting dropped down a whole rank without ms... as though it's the end all be all of his abilties. Though I guess for the tournament sake it's necessary.
Anyway, on Hidan, you don't necessarily relax after an attack and highly trained ninja's aren't stupid or careless. So Hidan just surprising them and taking them out is not some simple thing. Incidentally, Hidan doesn't hide his ability at all... and thus the element of his damage resitance will be quickly found out. Moreover, Hidan isn't immune to having is body being in no condition to fight from an attack, and it doesn't take more then one attak to notice his ability to take all sorts of damage. In essence then, with his damage greatness soon discovered, a ninja would be quite careful.
On the matter of his other ability, Hidan needs to draw blood, draw a cricle from that blood, stay in it, and