Sasori v.s. Itachi

[Paul the SK]

Sasori v.s Itachi.

Who would win?

[Sasori]

lol oh no u didn't.....

Prepare yourself for 100+ pages of pure fanboyism.

Ok let me start then -_-"...

Sasori wins until someone can argue long enough for me to not care.

[Sexy]

lol u halarios the person thta gonna win name end with the letter i nad has an a in there name both of them do lol

[Sasori]

^ Best rebuttle ever. I concede.

[Mukuro]

I don't know how Sasori can beat Itachi's Sharingan...

That's all I'll say for now...hopefully, the thread will open it up. ^^

[Sasori]

One question, can Sharingan see through solid/inanimate objects?

IIRC, they can vaguley see the chakra activity in ppls bodies, but would this apply the same to a dead hollow human?

[ZE]

Sasori is all about numbers. A lot of puppets will eliminate the advantage itachi has with sharingan, and I’m not even sure if the sharingan can predict puppets attacks since they are lifeless. Sasori is the worst opponent someone like itachi can ever have.

[Mukuro]

One question, can Sharingan see through solid/inanimate objects?

IIRC, they can vaguley see the chakra activity in ppls bodies, but would this apply the same to a dead hollow human?I don't know anything about seeing thru solid walls and shit. That's Byakugan's job, why you asking me? :huh :laugh

What's a "dead hollow human"?

[Sasori]

^ The puppet durr...

I'm asking you because I don't think that Itachi can read a hitokugutsu with his Sharingan in the same way he can against a normal human being.

[ZE]

^ The puppet durr...

I'm asking you because I don't think that Itachi can read a hitokugutsu with his Sharingan in the same way he can against a normal human being.

He can’t read puppets movements but he can see the chakra strings, sharingan can see any chakra form. So I think itachi can avoid the puppets by following the chakra movements.

[Kai]

Tsukiyomi is useless against a puppet.

You must have some kind of defense or evasion as superb as a medical nin to escape Sasori.

One scratch and its over. Sasori wins.

[Sasori]

He can’t read puppets movements but he can see the chakra strings, sharingan can see any chakra form. So I think itachi can avoid the puppets by following the chakra movements.That wasn't my point.

I agree that with Sharingan, he will be able to see the strings, but will he be able to predict the actions of the puppets?

He can read their movements perhaps, but can he successfully pre-empt the traps?

[General Mustang]

Itachi I think would win. In my opinnion hes alot stronger, ITACHI

[ZE]

That wasn't my point.

I agree that with Sharingan, he will be able to see the strings, but will he be able to predict the actions of the puppets?

He can read their movements perhaps, but can he successfully pre-empt the traps?

No, he can’t predict the puppets attacks, but he can predict their jutsus, like the iron sand, because their jutsus are made of chakra.
Itachi can avoid someone with a katana from hitting him, but if his opponent throws the katana he will not be able to predict the katana movement, only if there is chakra on the katana.

[Sasori]

^ Ok scenario 1:

Puppet 1 strikes Itachi from the front => Itachi dodges it easily, moving to the right.

Unknown to Itachi, spikes are shot from the puppet he just casually dodged, and gets scratched.

ie.

P -> I

I <
P |


An unrealistic scenario, but I am using it to illustrate the point that Itachi would also be susceptible to the traps even with his Sharingan.

[ZE]

^ Ok scenario 1:

Puppet 1 strikes Itachi from the front => Itachi dodges it easily, moving to the right.

Unknown to Itachi, spikes are shot from the puppet he just casually dodged, and gets scratched.

ie.

P -> I

I <
P |


An unrealistic scenario, but I am using it to illustrate the point that Itachi would also be susceptible to the traps even with his Sharingan.
In that case I think the sharingan would not be able to predict the spikes. A lifeless puppet without chakra controlled by sasori would eliminate that sharingan advantage. And I think sasori uses more normal puppets than he uses the others.

[Neji]

^ Ok scenario 1:

Puppet 1 strikes Itachi from the front => Itachi dodges it easily, moving to the right.

Unknown to Itachi, spikes are shot from the puppet he just casually dodged, and gets scratched.

ie.

P -> I

I <
P |


An unrealistic scenario, but I am using it to illustrate the point that Itachi would also be susceptible to the traps even with his Sharingan.

or a simple scenerio, Itachi runs

[Sasori]

^ Into a poisonous katana on the ground :nuts ?

[Gooba]

Sasori wins. He just has too much stuff going all over the place, and 1 scratch is all it takes to win. Itachi is good at dodging, but this is just too much.

[Yo_Daddy]

if their fighting with everything we've seen from both then sasori wins. he is the perfect counter for itachi right now.

numbers, puppet body (no genjutsu), MS wont work sense its used to fatigue someones physicial body(not puppets) and it cant affect him mentally sense he doesnt know about his past(he was only able to psych sasuke out because he knew he knew about his clan being massacred), and the poison is a disadvantage for anybody.

[Neji]

^ Into a poisonous katana on the ground :nuts ?

however, Itachi has mastered the katana, i don't think he'll be foolish enough to do that, however he might underestimate the weather and get hit with a lightning bolt on the way out

[Sasori]

however, Itachi has mastered the katana, i don't think he'll be foolish enough to do that, however he might underestimate the weather and get hit with a lightning bolt on the way outAhh...Good point, I see.

[Chaos Lier Len]

Sasori is all about numbers. A lot of puppets will eliminate the advantage itachi has with sharingan, and I’m not even sure if the sharingan can predict puppets attacks since they are lifeless. Sasori is the worst opponent someone like itachi can ever have.

You got it backwords, dude. The mass puppets won't matter when you combine Itachi's sharingan, speed, and genjutsu abilities. Chiyo proved that superior skills can beat Sasori's numbers. Then there's his amazing super-black-fire moves to contend with, and I'm pretty sure most of the puppets are wooden. Also, Sharingan's prediction abilities predict motion, both of limbs and of chakra. For the Sasori, Itachi would be the worst possible opponent. Or Neji.

The only one who has ever actually hurt Itachi is Itachi himself. Think about it.

[Paul the SK]

lol oh no u didn't.....

Prepare yourself for 100+ pages of pure fanboyism.

Ok let me start then -_-"...

Sasori wins until someone can argue long enough for me to not care.
Thats why I made this thread.

Due to my sig, Itachitards have been bothering me saying that Itachi could wipe the floor with Sasori. Thats bull. I created this to gather evidence that Sasori is greater.

Lol, hey fellow GB members Sasori and GBNeji.

[Star Juice]

You got it backwords, dude. The mass puppets won't matter when you combine Itachi's sharingan, speed, and genjutsu abilities. Chiyo proved that superior skills can beat Sasori's numbers. Then there's his amazing super-black-fire moves to contend with, and I'm pretty sure most of the puppets are wooden. Also, Sharingan's prediction abilities predict motion, both of limbs and of chakra. For the Sasori, Itachi would be the worst possible opponent. Or Neji.

The only one who has ever actually hurt Itachi is Itachi himself. Think about it.

How did Chiyo prove that superior skills can beat Sasori's numbers? If anything, she proved the opposite.

Itachi doesn't have "super-black-fire moveS," he only has one, with which he can't afford to miss. Sasori's heart-switch no jutsu will greatly increase the odds that Amaterasu will miss, and cost Itachi a load of chakra.

If you can come up with a good argument for the Sharingan being able to properly assess chakra strings and predict chakra-less traps, I'd be glad to hear it.

I don't think Sasori's puppets are wooden. Seems like metal would be a better choice as a reinforcing agent, and besides, most of Sasori's puppets are made from human corpses.

[Kyon]

Sasori takes this one. He is one of the few Itachi can not beat 1v1. If Itachi managed to break Hiruko, he'd be up against the Sandaime Kazekage, and if he got through that his stamina wouldn't allow him to defeat all 100 puppets.

I'm not really sure who (except for MAYBE Kakuzu, Yondaime, and Jiraiya) can take on Sasori 1v1. :oh

[Soul Vibe]

uhh

Amaterasu at the very beginning of the fight, anyone?

fight over.

[The Truth]

Depends where this fight takes place. If its in that cave where Sasori fought Sakura, then Itachi would lose, there wouldn't be enough room to avoid Sasori's attacks. In an open landscape, he stands a better chance of avoiding the puppets and maybe even getting behind Sasori.

[Razza]

Well... Sasori. As stated, he can fling a million different poisonous things at Itachi until he would lose.

We could consider this a fight between Itachi's Tsukiyomi aka. Mind-rape no jutsu. vs. Sasori's Aka Higi: Hyakki no Soen aka. I-can-kill-an-entire-country-at-once no jutsu. The only way for Itachi to win is for him to get Sasori locked into his his Tsukiyomi... and even then I wonder what the mental status of a guy who turns humans into puppets vs seemingly endless torture. Sasori really has the big advantage in numbers with this one so I'd give it to him.

[Saosin]

I'm going to say Sasori takes this one.

[USC#1]

Sasori for the win. to much stuff going on.

[Mangekyo Bankai]

Damn it, here we go again...

Alright boys and girls, gather around and your old pal MB will tell you a story...
*strums guitar*

Sasori came to Itachi, he was itchin for a fight;
He'd been workin up his courage at the Sunagure bar most of the night

"I'll feel 'em out" the puppeteer thought stroking at his chin,
As two puppets flew towards Itachi, he favored his assailant with a grin

A clone blew up behind Sasori, but Sasori was too smart,
He wasn't in the puppet body Itachi just blew apart...

"I see how you roll" Ol' Sasori said, producing another ten
Itachi rolled his eyes and they went back at it again

"But wait!" All the fanboys cried. "Aren't you taking it a little slow?"
"Wheres the hundred puppets, this is not how it would go!!1!!1"

Sasori ain't no genius but he knows how to play it right,
He'd never break his trump card out in the beginning of a fight...

He eventually pulled his 100 out, but by then it was too late,
Itachi grew weary of their game and Sasori met his fate.

The puppets rushed in, Itachi shunshined, as he is apt to do,
He was in the air, and with a smug stare he fired Amaterasu.

It didn't take them all out at once, but enough so the message was clear,
Sasori didn't understand so Itachi figured he should hear

It doesn't matter if you have sixty puppets left, or even sixty five.
You can bet your last I'll kick your ass as sure as you're alive...

Yep, there it is. My CD hit's major retailers next Tuesday. It's called Mangekyo Pwnage, pick it up then or PM me, I accept PayPal =D

[Spell]

That wasn't my point.

I agree that with Sharingan, he will be able to see the strings, but will he be able to predict the actions of the puppets?

Why not? Since puppet movements depend on fingers motion.

[Grrblt]

You got it backwords, dude. The mass puppets won't matter when you combine Itachi's sharingan, speed, and genjutsu abilities. Chiyo proved that superior skills can beat Sasori's numbers.

Chiyo did not beat Sasori's numbers. She did destroy a good lot of them, but Sasori simply had too many coming and she realized she was being zerged to hell.

Chiyo also said that numbers is a way to beat Sharingan. Can't genjutsu a puppet.

Oh and none of his puppets are made of wood. I don't understand where people get this idea really. His puppets are made of metal.

Why not? Since puppet movements depend on fingers motion.

Sasori doesn't have to control the strings with his fingers. And a Sharingan can't tell what finger movements correspond to what puppet movement; it could help predicting how the chakra thread moves but the Sharingan user would have to learn how the puppet responds by himself.

[Spell]

Sasori doesn't have to control the strings with his fingers.
Indeed, if you're talking about the puppet army. However I believe Sharingan is able to predict even this. I haven't got any evidence to prove it but since Itachi was able to forge Shisui's handwriting, this wouldn't be probably a big problem.

And a Sharingan can't tell what finger movements correspond to what puppet movement; it could help predicting how the chakra thread moves but the Sharingan user would have to learn how the puppet responds by himself.Well maybe it would sound some kinda weird but I think Sharingan would be able to notice those facts and note them down in it's "database" then use them to anticipate moves.

However I believe Sharingan is able to predict puppets movements. Unfortunately our knowledge about Itachi isn't comparable to knowledge about Sasori. We've already seen all Sasori could do, but just a piece of Itachi's abilities.

[Sasori]

Thats why I made this thread.

Due to my sig, Itachitards have been bothering me saying that Itachi could wipe the floor with Sasori. Thats bull. I created this to gather evidence that Sasori is greater.

Lol, hey fellow GB members Sasori and GBNeji.SK, there has been 3 Sasori vs Itachi threads not including this one. I see the same stuff being said every time and each time Sasori seems to have the stronger arguement.

uhh

Amaterasu at the very beginning of the fight, anyone?

fight over.Like that EVER happens. And I don't suppose Sasori would just stand around waiting for the coupla seconds it takes Itachi to activate his MS etc...

Why not? Since puppet movements depend on fingers motion.Read the rest of the posts between me and ZE. I outlined how Sharingan would not be able to predict the traps.

Also, a dead human corpse would not have the same chakra construction as a living body. The sharingan would not be able to translate it in the same way.

Oh and none of his puppets are made of wood. I don't understand where people get this idea really. His puppets are made of metal.That and preserved, dead human flesh.

Indeed, if you're talking about the puppet army. However I believe Sharingan is able to predict even this. I haven't got any evidence to prove it but since Itachi was able to forge Shisui's handwriting, this wouldn't be probably a big problem.The Sharingan works by translating the chakra activity of a person to copy it.

Itachi probably has seen Shishui writing and just copied it in that way.

Puppets that do not have the same corresponding chakra structure and so would not be able to be translated in the same way.

Also, Itachi does not have byakugan. What happens if he has all 100 puppets overwhelming him from all sides?

He would not be able to see them all, even if his Sharingan would allow him to predict the puppets.

[Grrblt]

That and preserved, dead human flesh.

I don't think there's anything left of their real bodies except the part that generates chakra (heart or whatever). Look at Kazekage's arms (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/267/v30_ch267_09.png) for example. Look at his mouth (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/268/v30_ch268_08.png). Look at all the iron dust inside of him (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/268/v30_ch268_09.png). Heck, look at what Sasori's made of (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/271-280/272/v31_ch272_06.png) or his broken face (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/271-280/275/naruto_ch275_p04.png). Doesn't look the least like any human parts.

[GodComplex]

Well it may look like Sasori has the upper hand, but lets not forget Itachi's a fucking genius, he wouldn't fall for the tricks that a average ninja would.

on top of that he already knows the trap placements of Sasori's puppets, because Sasori had to pull them out when he was joining Akatsuki.

Also knows alot more jutsus than he showed (remeber he has the sharingan) so he has a multitude of jutsus in his arrsanal (thats why Orochimaru left Akatsuki). soo there is a number of ways it could be played out.

[Sasori]

I don't think there's anything left of their real bodies except the part that generates chakra (heart or whatever). Look at Kazekage's arms (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/267/v30_ch267_09.png) for example. Look at his mouth (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/268/v30_ch268_08.png). Look at all the iron dust inside of him (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/261-270/268/v30_ch268_09.png). Heck, look at what Sasori's made of (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/271-280/272/v31_ch272_06.png) or his broken face (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/271-280/275/naruto_ch275_p04.png). Doesn't look the least like any human parts.lol yea but looks can be deceiving.

The same way as most of these kids think that the puppets are made of wood.

This scan supports the point about human remains. (Emphasis on the Sasori's dialogue).
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2729/narutoch264p1819hv0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

He obviously keeps the main exterior of the bodies, but just hollows them out and preserves them. Probably just fills with metal and stuff where the flesh was supposed to be.

All on all, I don't deny that the puppets are made of metal or even wood in fact (though it would be minimal).

I just mean that it is not all that they are composed off, and may merely be a way of reinforcing the puppets. (well the hitokugtsus anyway).

[Sasori]

Well it may look like Sasori has the upper hand, but lets not forget Itachi's a fucking genius, he wouldn't fall for the tricks that a average ninja would.Even a master puppeteer with tonnes of war-time experience was getting surprised by the traps.

on top of that he already knows the trap placements of Sasori's puppets, because Sasori had to pull them out when he was joining Akatsuki.Speculation. No where has it been stated that he had to fight against the other members.

It may have been taking over a country which was his initiation test.

Also, you think Sasori would keep the same traps?

Even Chiyo commented on the changes of Hiruko.

Also knows alot more jutsus than he showed (remeber he has the sharingan) so he has a multitude of jutsus in his arrsanal (thats why Orochimaru left Akatsuki).lol..

soo there is a number of ways it could be played out.I don't deny this. Neither did I say it would be easy for Sasori.

[Spell]

Read the rest of the posts between me and ZE. I outlined how Sharingan would not be able to predict the traps.
I've read your posts, however I don't believe Itachi would simply fall into these traps. He is too fast for Sasori's puppets ( well I can assume that comparing their fights with Konoha shinobi)

Also, a dead human corpse would not have the same chakra construction as a living body. The sharingan would not be able to translate it in the same way.I agree. But there are still chakra strings and with reference to my previous post I believe Itachi would be somehow able to (at least in a small part) predict the movements of puppets.



The Sharingan works by translating the chakra activity of a person to copy it.

Itachi probably has seen Shishui writing and just copied it in that way.Plausibly.

Puppets that do not have the same corresponding chakra structure and so would not be able to be translated in the same way.That's a reasonable argument.

Also, Itachi does not have byakugan. What happens if he has all 100 puppets overwhelming him from all sides?
Well, I actually doubt that the army of puppets would be a problem for Itachi. The bigger problem would be Kazekage puppet IMO. Sakura and Chiyo were able to annihilate this army pretty quick. Itachi is much faster and his jutsus are more destructive.

[Sasori]

I've read your posts, however I don't believe Itachi would simply fall into these traps. He is too fast for Sasori's puppets ( well I can assume that comparing their fights with Konoha shinobi)He may be faster than the traps, but would he know to evade/defend?

Without such knowledge and awareness of the workings of a puppeteer's mind, will he know what to look out for?

He may be able to easily evade/defend against projectiles or weapons in his full view, but how would he react to hidden traps?

I agree. But there are still chakra strings and with reference to my previous post I believe Itachi would be somehow able to (at least in a small part) predict the movements of puppets.After a while he may be able to predict the movements, but not via the Sharingan. In this fight, his Sharingan would only serve the purpose of identifying the chakra strings.

The rest would have to be his own mind, quite like the way Sakura began to break down the combinations.

However, this would not apply as much to the Hundred puppets as it was the finger movements that allowed Sakura to begin to predict the puppets.

Plausibly.

That's a reasonable argument.


Well, I actually doubt that the army of puppets would be a problem for Itachi. The bigger problem would be Kazekage puppet IMO. Sakura and Chiyo were able to annihilate this army pretty quick. Itachi is much faster and his jutsus are more destructive.If you read the fight again, Sakura and Chiyo were not able to annihilate the army at all.

Even near to the end, before Sakura threw the chakra sealing ball, Chiyo was commenting that there was too many.

However, I do think Itachi's speed and scale of his jutsu's would help.

[Spell]

He may be faster than the traps, but would he know to evade/defend?

Without such knowledge and awareness of the workings of a puppeteer's mind, will he know what to look out for?

He may be able to easily evade/defend against projectiles or weapons in his full view, but how would he react to hidden traps?
Unfortunately we don't know it. That's why I dislike fights including Itachi. We still don't know much about him :/


After a while he may be able to predict the movements, but not via the Sharingan. In this fight, his Sharingan would only serve the purpose of identifying the chakra strings.

The rest would have to be his own mind, quite like the way Sakura began to break down the combinations.
I believe he would manage, but it's still only assumption. Not enough info.

However, this would not apply as much to the Hundred puppets as it was the finger movements that allowed Sakura to begin to predict the puppets.

If you read the fight again, Sakura and Chiyo were not able to annihilate the army at all.

Even near to the end, before Sakura threw the chakra sealing ball, Chiyo was commenting that there was too many.

Well annihilate is a wrong word here. I meant they were able to get rid of the army. They were able to create a good opportunity to immobilize Sasori and that eliminated the army from fight.

Even Sakura was able to keep up with puppets speed, avoid their attacks and crush some of them. Therefore it wouldn't cause probems for Itachi.

[tab16]

Itachi, because hes really fast so he can dodge all the poison attacks and i dont remember sasori having any genjutsu defense so MS would defeat him.

[Feral]

Itachi is best for 1 on 1 battles.

He will defeat the 1st and 2nd puppet, but would have trouble defeating the puppet army. He simply doesn't have the stamina to spam S-Rank spread attack jutsus (attacks that can damage multiple things at once).

Sasori will take this.

My question is, since Sasori is inside of the first puppet (I believe, I don't read the Manga, I just know some spoilers), could Itachi use genjutsu on him? If he could, it would probably be game over.

[itachi21]

Sasori leading this poll......that's fucking hilarious to say the least.

[Spudly nin of krabcheese]

I can't really say for this one, both of them have good chances at winning.

[Sasori]

Unfortunately we don't know it. That's why I dislike fights including Itachi. We still don't know much about him :/Agreed.

I believe he would manage, but it's still only assumption. Not enough info.Well I am sure that he would manage, but I was just making the point that his Sharingan would not give him an advantage in it's conventional way.

Well annihilate is a wrong word here. I meant they were able to get rid of the army. They were able to create a good opportunity to immobilize Sasori and that eliminated the army from fight. Agreed.

Even Sakura was able to keep up with puppets speed, avoid their attacks and crush some of them. Therefore it wouldn't cause probems for Itachi.Agreed. Although the factor lies in the fact that against Itachi, he would feel the full 100 strong.

In that fight, you have to remember that Sasori technically had 12 opponents.

Sakura could hold her own because the whole army was not focused on her.

Itachi, because hes really fast so he can dodge all the poison attacks and i dont remember sasori having any genjutsu defense so MS would defeat him.lol he's a fuckin puppet....................................

Sasori leading this poll......that's fucking hilarious to say the least.Yes, I lol'd.

[Mangekyo Bankai]

The fact that Sasori is in a puppet body doesn't protect him from genjutsu, he still has a mind in there and it can still be psyched out or manipulated. Everyone keeps talking about this like Sasori begins this fight with his 100 puppet entourage already out and ready to throw down. There is a period of time between when the fight begins and when the puppets come out, and even if that is a matter of seconds it's still enough time for Itachi to pull one of a couple big manuevers.

-Exploding clones: hardly anytime at all from what we saw with Kakashi
-Tsukuyomi: All he needs is eye contact, even from a distance
-Amaterasu: very quickly, being that the speed of the wall of meat in the rock frogs stomach (episode 83 I think, maybe 84) was faster than both Kisame and Itachi (According to Kisame) and Itachi busted the move out right then and there, while running I might add.

I'm not saying this would be a 2 second fight, but I'm not going to say that Sasori will do his ultimate move right off the bat. Itachi is a crafty, powerful shinobi. Numbers really haven't hindered his progress in the past (He wrecked the strongest shinobi clan in Konoha as a kid, and in the flashback it showed six guys attack him from all sides and they all went flying without him really moving), and I doubt Sasori would be given a chance to get his 100 out. Did you see the speed with which he made a clone and got behind Kakashi? He did all that while speaking, mid-sentence.

Besides, the exploding clone makes a pretty decent explosion, it would take out a couple puppets if they got close enough to attack it, and Itachi also has incredible kunai accuracy. He could target joints and such on the puppets, hell he even has that large blade that he swiped at Kurenai with in 81. He has many tricks literally up his sleeve.

I think if Sasori was stronger/more capable than Itachi then AL would have sent him after Kyuubi instead of Shukaku. It would be an excellent fight but Itachi would win, albeit with severe chakra loss.

And for the record, I'm pretty sure Sharingan predicts movements based on twitch reflex motion and gross muscle movement. It pretty much allows you to see how which way muscles move before they do, like telegraphing a punch times 1000. The reason he said that line in the VoTE fight about the chakra being too unpredictable for him to guess what move was happening next was because at that point the kyuubi chakra has taken control of Naruto's body, and it was visably moving his limbs. It's not like Sharingan can see chakra or whatever =D

[Feral]

And for the record, I'm pretty sure Sharingan predicts movements based on twitch reflex motion and gross muscle movement. It pretty much allows you to see how which way muscles move before they do, like telegraphing a punch times 1000. The reason he said that line in the VoTE fight about the chakra being too unpredictable for him to guess what move was happening next was because at that point the kyuubi chakra has taken control of Naruto's body, and it was visably moving his limbs. It's not like Sharingan can see chakra or whatever =D

I completely agree with your last paragraph. I don't know who was saying that he couldn't predict puppet movement, but he definitely can.

And like I said, if he could do a genjutsu on Sasori, it would be over..

But I think if he couldn't pull it off, he wouldn't have the stamina to keep up with 100 puppets, Itachi skills or not.

[Mangekyo Bankai]

Eh, I suppose if the fight got to the point where the 100 puppets were out, and he had already unsuccessfully Tsukuyomied a puppet twice, then he would be pretty low on steam and eventually have to use the Art of Run haha.

But you know what they say. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day... a phrase Itachi takes to heart. And no, I'm not making fun of Itachi. He's my favorite freaking character of all time, but he does run alot. It's not a bad thing, it's smart. Why waste time when your goals are more important.

BTW who said Tsukuyomi can only hit one person at a time? We don't know the range of the move, it obviously has distance but what about width? If Asuma and Kurenai had their eyes open when Kakashi got owned by Tsukuyomi could they have been caught in it too? Is it limited to one person per shot, like most coupons? Maybe he could hit all the puppets at once and get Sasori by default. It's a pretty decent fight, so many angles.

[durtycheese]

i liek both chars, but i still think itachi would win.

[hyuuga_neji14732]

Itachi is most likely but Sasori allowed himself 2 die so he might hav had better jutsus that were not yet shown and the question still reamins can sharingan predict the movements of a puppet.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

With no way to get past the traps, Itachi is pretty much screwed. Even if by some crazy way he can, there's still the matter of one hit = win for Sasori.

Plus 298 enemies is simply too many to face. Especially when they just need to barely touch you and you die.
Combined with the 3rd Kazekage being one of those, Itachi has less than 1% of a shot here.

[Spell]

Well I am sure that he would manage, but I was just making the point that his Sharingan would not give him an advantage in it's conventional way.Yes, then I could agree.



Agreed. Although the factor lies in the fact that against Itachi, he would feel the full 100 strong.

In that fight, you have to remember that Sasori technically had 12 opponents.

Sakura could hold her own because the whole army was not focused on her.
Yes, but Itachi can use Kage bunshins/explosive KB. And there is still Amaterasu, however we don't know the range of that jutsu.

IMO Kazekage's puppet would be much more threatening than this army of puppets.

[Sasori]

The fact that Sasori is in a puppet body doesn't protect him from genjutsu, he still has a mind in there and it can still be psyched out or manipulated.Genjutsu is a technique which targets the victim's brain through the 5 senses.

For all we know, Sasori doesn't have a brain - or not in the conventional sense anyway. Sasori's brain obviously doesn't work in the same way as normal humans, so why would a genjutsu affect him in the same way?

Everyone keeps talking about this like Sasori begins this fight with his 100 puppet entourage already out and ready to throw down. There is a period of time between when the fight begins and when the puppets come out, and even if that is a matter of seconds it's still enough time for Itachi to pull one of a couple big manuevers.

-Exploding clones: hardly anytime at all from what we saw with Kakashi
-Tsukuyomi: All he needs is eye contact, even from a distance
-Amaterasu: very quickly, being that the speed of the wall of meat in the rock frogs stomach (episode 83 I think, maybe 84) was faster than both Kisame and Itachi (According to Kisame) and Itachi busted the move out right then and there, while running I might add.Hypocritical to say that Sasori does not start with his big moves, but Itachi does?

If Itachi identifies Sasori as an opponent that needs for him to go all out, I think I can equally say that Sasori can go all out from the beginning too.

I'm not saying this would be a 2 second fight, but I'm not going to say that Sasori will do his ultimate move right off the bat. Itachi is a crafty, powerful shinobi. Numbers really haven't hindered his progress in the past (He wrecked the strongest shinobi clan in Konoha as a kid, and in the flashback it showed six guys attack him from all sides and they all went flying without him really moving),How many of those guys were not affected by stab wounds or had poisonous traps shooting everywhere?

and I doubt Sasori would be given a chance to get his 100 out. Did you see the speed with which he made a clone and got behind Kakashi? He did all that while speaking, mid-sentence.Yes, I acknowledge his speed, but I still think that Sasori will find an opportunity.

Besides, the exploding clone makes a pretty decent explosion, it would take out a couple puppets if they got close enough to attack it, and Itachi also has incredible kunai accuracy. He could target joints and such on the puppets, hell he even has that large blade that he swiped at Kurenai with in 81. He has many tricks literally up his sleeve.Yes, I agree with all of this.

I think if Sasori was stronger/more capable than Itachi then AL would have sent him after Kyuubi instead of Shukaku. It would be an excellent fight but Itachi would win, albeit with severe chakra loss.I don't think they were assigned to a bijuu exclusively, as we see Deidara, Hidan/Kakuzu all targetting more than one.

And for the record, I'm pretty sure Sharingan predicts movements based on twitch reflex motion and gross muscle movement. It pretty much allows you to see how which way muscles move before they do, like telegraphing a punch times 1000. The reason he said that line in the VoTE fight about the chakra being too unpredictable for him to guess what move was happening next was because at that point the kyuubi chakra has taken control of Naruto's body, and it was visably moving his limbs.Sharingan can predict movements by translating chakra activity in a person. Puppet's don't have the same chakra activity as a human being.

It's not like Sharingan can see chakra or whatever =DIt can.

Eh, I suppose if the fight got to the point where the 100 puppets were out, and he had already unsuccessfully Tsukuyomied a puppet twice, then he would be pretty low on steam and eventually have to use the Art of Run haha.

But you know what they say. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day... a phrase Itachi takes to heart. And no, I'm not making fun of Itachi. He's my favorite freaking character of all time, but he does run alot. It's not a bad thing, it's smart. Why waste time when your goals are more important.

BTW who said Tsukuyomi can only hit one person at a time? We don't know the range of the move, it obviously has distance but what about width? If Asuma and Kurenai had their eyes open when Kakashi got owned by Tsukuyomi could they have been caught in it too? Is it limited to one person per shot, like most coupons? Maybe he could hit all the puppets at once and get Sasori by default.No.

Itachi is most likely but Sasori allowed himself 2 die so he might hav had better jutsus that were not yet shown and the question still reamins can sharingan predict the movements of a puppet.I alreadii explained that it can't. Unless someone disputes those points then it will remain valid till the rest of the debate.

Yes, but Itachi can use Kage bunshins/explosive KB.I agree about Itach's large area of effect attacks.

And there is still Amaterasu, however we don't know the range of that jutsu.Judging by the hole made in the wall, it didn't seem at all that big. Just very potent that's all.

IMO Kazekage's puppet would be much more threatening than this army of puppets.Yes I think this too.

[Whisperkill]

I am a true Sasori fan but i have to say that Itachi would win, it can either be an extremely fast match or a long and close match

[Mangekyo Bankai]

Sasori, I don't feel like quoting you so I'm just going to address things in order as they appear in your last post.

1) What shows that Sasori's brain "obviously" doesn't work like a humans? Where is the fact behind that?
2) No it's not hypocritical, based on his previous fights, Itachi breaks out the big guns rather quickly. Sasori took a while to get around to his.
3) I suppose what you said about the bijuu could be true.
4) Since when does Sharingan translate chakra movement?
5) No it can't, you are thinking of Byakugan. And if it can please point out where in the series this took place.
6) How do you justify responding to a 3 paragraph long post with "No."? What exactly are you saying no to? I mentioned a possibility of Sasori winning, and if you are saying no to my whole post then you are saying no to the basis of your own argument. So elaborate or concede, because saying no to my post only leaves you with those options...

BTW 300 posts! My days of educating the young have begun! (Although it seems I've been doing it in this forum from day 1 haha =D)

[sel]

wow at how even this poll is - 23 vs 23..

sasori takes this i say

[Kai]

Sasori, I don't feel like quoting you so I'm just going to address things in order as they appear in your last post.

1) What shows that Sasori's brain "obviously" doesn't work like a humans? Where is the fact behind that?
The "fact" that hes a frikking puppet?

2) No it's not hypocritical, based on his previous fights, Itachi breaks out the big guns rather quickly. Sasori took a while to get around to his.
3) I suppose what you said about the bijuu could be true.
4) Since when does Sharingan translate chakra movement?
5) No it can't, you are thinking of Byakugan. And if it can please point out where in the series this took place.
6) How do you justify responding to a 3 paragraph long post with "No."? What exactly are you saying no to? I mentioned a possibility of Sasori winning, and if you are saying no to my whole post then you are saying no to the basis of your own argument. So elaborate or concede, because saying no to my post only leaves you with those options...

BTW 300 posts! My days of educating the young have begun! (Although it seems I've been doing it in this forum from day 1 haha =D)
And... I don't know what you're talking about with the rest of these numbers because I didn't read those 5 paragraph essays up top either.

I don't see how Genjutsu + Tsukiyomi would have any effect on a puppet..
Itachi hasn't shown any superb evasive skills, hes not a medic nin.
One scratch is all Sasori needs before Itachi goes down quickly, thus I believe Sasori is the perfect counter against him.
The 3rd is also part of this gangbanging party and his Iron Sand along with 100 other puppets waiting to nick Itachi is just devastation.

[TWF]

Sasori destroys Itachi once the first 100 puppets are released.

[patfan]

So the poll is now 24 vs 24. Wouldn't think that it's a draw. I think Itachi would win, though we haven't seen many of their both jutsus yet. Who knows what the Mangekyou can do more?

[Grrblt]

Sasori, I don't feel like quoting you so I'm just going to address things in order as they appear in your last post.

1) What shows that Sasori's brain "obviously" doesn't work like a humans? Where is the fact behind that?
2) No it's not hypocritical, based on his previous fights, Itachi breaks out the big guns rather quickly. Sasori took a while to get around to his.
3) I suppose what you said about the bijuu could be true.
4) Since when does Sharingan translate chakra movement?
5) No it can't, you are thinking of Byakugan. And if it can please point out where in the series this took place.
6) How do you justify responding to a 3 paragraph long post with "No."? What exactly are you saying no to? I mentioned a possibility of Sasori winning, and if you are saying no to my whole post then you are saying no to the basis of your own argument. So elaborate or concede, because saying no to my post only leaves you with those options...

1. He's a puppet. If he has a brain, which I don't think he does, then it is nothing like a normal person's brain because the only real part of him that's left is too small to contain a brain and a heart. Genjutsu works by controlling what a brain experiences, but since Sasori's possible brain is completely alien to Itachi he won't know how to attack it.
4. See VotE fight. Sasuke can completely predict Naruto's muscle movement, but not the independent movement of the chakra shroud. As we see in Kakashi Gaiden and Sasuke vs Lee, Sharingan identifies chakra fluctuations in a person's body. By reading how the chakra fluctuates, it identifies how a person's muscles will move. This is the reason 3 tomoe can completely predict Naruto's movement and 2 tomoe can't; 2 tomoe merely has bullet speed vision. It is also the reason to why Sharingan can't predict a puppet; it has no muscles and no chakra circulatory system.
5. Sharingan sees chakra (http://devilbox.dead.org/n/241-250/243/naruto_ch243_p05.png)

[Spell]

Judging by the hole made in the wall, it didn't seem at all that big. Just very potent that's all.
Yes, but there was no need to make it bigger. However I don't want to take a guess. We shall see (I hope so).

Sasori destroys Itachi once the first 100 puppets are released.Any evidence?

[TWF]

Yes, but there was no need to make it bigger. However I don't want to take a guess. We shall see (I hope so).

Any evidence?

The fact that he has two weapon/summoning scrolls of over 200 hundred puppets isn't enough for you? What exactly can the Sharingan do to predict the movements of so many opponets, non-living ones at that.

One scratch, is death when fighting Sasori.

[Spell]

The fact that he has two weapon/summoning scrolls of over 200 hundred puppets isn't enough for you?
Chiyo and Sakura managed with this problem. It's nothing for Itachi. I Advise you to read previous posts.
What exactly can the Sharingan do to predict the movements of so many opponets, non-living ones at that.
Doesn't matter. Sasori army's quantity isn't an advantage. Itachi can use Kage Bunshins or explosive kage Bunshins to annihilate the army.

One scratch, is death when fighting Sasori.
One MS is death when fighting Itachi. This is not an argument.

[TWF]

Chiyo and Sakura managed with this problem. It's nothing for Itachi. I Advise you to read previous posts.

It's quite probable Itachi knows nothing of Sasori's hijutsus or kinjutsus, so I doubt he'll get away with it in the same manner as the woman who trained him.



Doesn't matter. Sasori army's quantity isn't an advantage. Itachi can use Kage Bunshins or explosive kage Bunshins to annihilate the army.

Itachi can not exhaust something that isn't limited by mortal stamina or fatigue. How do you know if he has enough chakra to deal with so many puppets? I doubt he would be able to reach Sasori's breaking point with what we've seen from Itachi so far.

Not saying some katons or exploding bunshins wouldn't help, but the sheer numbers and abilties of the puppets will overwhelm him.


One MS is death when fighting Itachi. This is not an argument.

Proof that genjutsu works on someone without a brain?

[Kai]

Chiyo and Sakura managed with this problem. It's nothing for Itachi. I Advise you to read previous posts.
Post Sakura is an elite medical nin who was trained by Tsunade, supposedly best medical ninja in the Narutoverse as well as the 5th hokage. She knew how to deal with the poison, and had excellent evasion skills.

Chiyo already had knowledge of Sasori's puppets and his techniques, and was already planning on how to defeat them.
Btw, Sasori > Chiyo + Sakura

Doesn't matter. Sasori army's quantity isn't an advantage. Itachi can use Kage Bunshins or explosive kage Bunshins to annihilate the army.
Itachi isn't God. Not everything about him is excellent. He can't form that many KageBunshins to destroy Sasori's army of blood hungry puppets. He's going to be evasive for most of the battle, in which he won't last long.


One MS is death when fighting Itachi. This is not an argument.
He can try that once, and he will be drained considerably. Sasori goes in for the kill, 100+ puppets waiting to scratch him as well as the 3rd's Iron sand.

Game over.

[Spell]

To make it clear: I do not state Itachi would win. There is not enough information to state who would win this fight.

It's quite probable Itachi knows nothing of Sasori's hijutsus or kinjutsus, so I doubt he'll get away with it in the same manner as the woman who trained him.
Chiyo didn't know any of Sasori's abilities he gained after leaving Suna.
It is possible Itachi knows much more than Chiyo since they are both Akatsuki and it would be wise to know at least a piece of each other abilities.


Itachi can not exhaust something that isn't limited by mortal stamina or fatigue. How do you know if he has enough chakra to deal with so many puppets? I doubt he would be able to reach Sasori's breaking point with what we've seen from Itachi so far.
3 KB would be probably enough. Sasori's puppets wouldn't be able to keep up with Itachi's speed, there is no doubt about it. If you don't believe read my previous posts.

Not saying some katons or exploding bunshins wouldn't help, but the sheer numbers and abilties of the puppets will overwhelm him.
Evidence please.

Proof that genjutsu works on someone without a brain?
Is genjutsu the only one ability of MS?

Post Sakura is an elite medical nin who was trained by Tsunade, supposedly best medical ninja in the Narutoverse as well as the 5th hokage. She knew how to deal with the poison, and had excellent evasion skills.
Still weak plushie compared to Itachi.

Chiyo already had knowledge of Sasori's puppets and his techniques, and was already planning on how to defeat them.
As I stated before it was a poor knowledge. Chiyo was surprised with almost every one of Sasori's abilities.

Btw, Sasori > Chiyo + Sakura
I could barely agree.


Itachi isn't God. Not everything about him is excellent. He can't form that many KageBunshins to destroy Sasori's army of blood hungry puppets. And you can prove it? How do you know how many puppets would be needed?

[Aizen]

itachi.
what we have seen of itachi up until now puts them evenly, but he hasnt reavealed evrything yet.

[TWF]

Chiyo didn't know any of Sasori's abilities he gained after leaving Suna.
It is possible Itachi knows much more than Chiyo since they are both Akatsuki and it would be wise to know at least a piece of each other abilities.

Chiyo is far more aware of what Sasori is capable of and how his tactics work. It'd be foolish to think she knows everything on his jutsus and skills since his departure from Sungakure. Two puppeters have a better chance of understanding the mindset of their rival, then a genjutsu user does by the proxy of being in Akatsuki.



3 KB would be probably enough. Sasori's puppets wouldn't be able to keep up with Itachi's speed, there is no doubt about it. If you don't believe read my previous posts.

Considering the speed in which Sasori's puppets move, particularly more so with Sandaime Kazekage and the Iron Sand hijutsu, I seriously doubt that. Itachi has not displayed any amazing ability in stamina or speed.


Is genjutsu the only one ability of MS?

Don't play dumb. We know that Amaterasu, the eternal black flame jutsu is potent and powerful, but he can't spam the MS. Twice Itachi used MS on Kakashi and Sasuke, once to escape from Jiraiya's summon's throat at the Rock Inn. He was completely depleted of energy and couldn't fight at all.

That won't work with the amount of puppets coming at him.


As I stated before it was a poor knowledge. Chiyo was surprised with almost every one of Sasori's abilities.

Chiyo was surpised by his frightening advacement of skills and strength, she still had a fairly good innate understanding of his strategies and tactics.

And you can prove it? How do you know how many puppets would be needed?

However many will kill Itachi.

[Skater0felement]

i rele dont know because itachi is a genjutsu user but im sure he has has a lot of ninjutsu and other stuff other than sharingan so it can go either way

[Spell]

Chiyo is far more aware of what Sasori is capable of and how his tactics work. It'd be foolish to think she knows everything on his jutsus and skills since his departure from Sungakure. Two puppeters have a better chance of understanding the mindset of their rival, then a genjutsu user does by the proxy of being in Akatsuki.
Puppeters can understand each other well, but still Chiyo's knowlege of Sasori's abilities was poor. So she's avantage over Itachi in that matter can't be proved.



Considering the speed in which Sasori's puppets move, particularly more so with Sandaime Kazekage and the Iron Sand hijutsu, I seriously doubt that. Itachi has not displayed any amazing ability in stamina or speed.As I stated before in my previous posts, the speed of Sasori's army wasn't impressive at all. Even Sakura was able to avoid their attacks, and these were attacks of many directed to one.

And as I stated before Kazekage's puppet would cause probably much more problem than the army.




Don't play dumb. We know that Amaterasu, the eternal black flame jutsu is potent and powerful, but he can't spam the MS. Twice Itachi used MS on Kakashi and Sasuke, once to escape from Jiraiya's summon's throat at the Rock Inn. He was completely depleted of energy and couldn't fight at all.
Ive never stated he would spam MS. I don't know from where did you take this idea. MS shot would be reserved for Sasori. With puppets Itachi would be able to deal by himself ( I suppose).


Chiyo was surpised by his frightening advacement of skills and strength, she still had a fairly good innate understanding of his strategies and tactics.I don't doubt that. I've just stated she wasn't aware of most of his jutsus.



However many will kill Itachi.
However I doubt that.
Look at 343, Sasuke has beaten much more than the quantity of Sasori's army, and Sasuke is probably weaker than Itachi.

[TWF]

Look at 343, Sasuke has beaten much more than the quantity of Sasori's army, and Sasuke is probably weaker than Itachi.

The Hidden Sound Village is a reject village. From what we saw in the Sand-Sound Invasion Arc, all of the Sound Nins, Chuunins and Jounins were getting owned by the Leaf.

Sasuke pwning a bunch of extremely shitty ninjas does not make him bad ass. But in that same context, Sasori stated that he only took the finest and most quality ninjas and made them into puppets.

[Peoples Hernandez]

Hard to say...I'll just say Itachi.:amuse

[Sasori]

TWF, I think Sasori would win, but I also agree with Risu's points.

It would not be a complete curbstomp, and I expect nothing less than an extremely difficult battle for Sasori.

[Mibu Clan]

ImO Sasori> Itachi (Whats known of course)

Lets start by saying that Sasori's ultimate Hitokugutsu is himself (Even if it wasnt portrayed very well). (Hopefully the Databook will reveal those scrolls' attacks, in the Anime they will definetly appear)
So, by default Sasori's himself> Kazekage

Lets review each characters attacks. (Each attack will later be reviewed with care)

Sasori
- Only needs a scratch to win

Sasori's himself puppet:
- Katon flames
- His "Tail"
- Scroll unrevealed
- Scroll unrevealed
- Aka Higi Hyakki no Souen
- Core teleport Jutsu

Kazekage Puppet:
- Many bladed weapons.
- Many hidden Hands
- Kunai traps
- Poison Gas
- Satetsu Shigure
- Satetsu long sticks
- Satetsu triangle and Square
- Satetsu Kaihou

Hiruko:
- Tail
- Mouth Needles
- Left Hand

Itachi
Only needs eye contact to win

Itachi:
- Sharingan
- Sword
- KB Explosion
- Suiton feet attack
- Suiton Suijinheki
- Katon Gougakyu
- Genjutsu
- Sharingan Genjutsu
- MS Tsukyiomi
- MS Amaterasu

Lets begin by examining what comes first, weather Itachi can get Sasori out of Hiruko... This depends heavily on how the battle will progress. If Itachi uses Amaterasu on Hiruko and hits, then thats the end of Sasori... problem with that would be Itachi actualy REACHING the range needed for Amaterasu. He would need to avoid all of Hirukos traps and I assume he cant make a KB use it... thus it would make him risk his own body.

ImO the only way Itachi has of breaking Hiruko is to block all of Hirukos traps (Katon Gougakyuu would blow them away) and send a KB to attack Hiruko, while Sasori attacks with the tail Itachi's KB has already made another KB which explodes on Hirukos face, thus destroying Hiruko and preserving Chakra.

So yeah Sasori's out and Itachi has preserved his Chakra. Itachi would dodge and eventually defeat the Kazekage's traps, and end up fighting the Satetsu. In which case I doubt Itachi would get out unscratched against the Satetsu, but lets say he does. Note: Sakura did NOT dodge Satetsu Kaihou, Chiyo controlled her again. And uses his Gougakyuu and KB explosion together to destroy the Sandaime Kazekage puppet.

Finally it comes to Sasori's himself puppet vs Itachi.(Lets clarify something, Sasori's puppets each hold traps as stated by himself, meaning his ultimate technique's puppets did as well... BUT Kunai/Needles dont work against against puppets thus him using those against Chiyo's puppets would be stupid)
Itachi has quite a good deffence against Sasori's 1 minute long Katon, the Suiton Suijinheki, this is also a trap, should Itachi come charging at SAsori before he's used this Jutsu its a Katon to the face. But there's also Sasori's tail which looks rather invulnerable to Jutsu and is very fast, he can use it to caprture opponents as well as wound them, and can use it to "fly". Sasori's himself puppet also posseses the best bladed weapons which also move at a huge speed. Then there's Sasori's 2 lost scrolls (Probably on the same level as the Katon)

And finally Sasori uses his ULTIMATE technique, Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen. His one hundred puppet army. Lets note that when he used this technique it was against 10 puppets, Chiyo AND Sakura, therefore they werent all directed at one person... When fighting Itachi they WOULD be. Do you think from what Itachi's SHOWN he can dodge 100 puppets armed with weapons and each with mass destructive power as well as deffence? ImO this would be overkill for Itachi, not only because he could suffer great Injury's but because he cant even get SCRATCHED!! He'd have to use all of the Jutsus he's shown just to survive, and lets remember that to break Sasori's puppets a lot of strength is needed. Basically the only way Itachi can defeat this Sasori is if he uses Amaterasu against the real Sasori, and even then he'd need to get rather close to Sasori because amaterasu is a Short Range Ninjutsu. I mean its 100 puppets coming at you with brute force and each is very hard to destroy... Not just that but each puppet could hit the ground FULL FORCE and not suffer any damages, which says alot about their Durability.

ImO unless Itachi starts with Amaterasu and burns Hiruko and Sasori right away, he has no way of defeating the 100 Puppet army. Even breakin each puppet individually is hard enough as it is. And thats if Itachi can manage to Amaterasu the real Sasori before his Core teleports... In which case he would catch Itachi of guard and kill him anyways.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5488/narutoch273p08im5.jpg

[Mibu Clan]

As I stated before in my previous posts, the speed of Sasori's army wasn't impressive at all. Even Sakura was able to avoid their attacks, and these were attacks of many directed to one.
Sasori sent 2 puppets against Sakura, one she destroyed and the other she was SAVED by one of Chiyo's deffence puppets.

And as I stated before Kazekage's puppet would cause probably much more problem than the army.
No...

Ive never stated he would spam MS. I don't know from where did you take this idea. MS shot would be reserved for Sasori. With puppets Itachi would be able to deal by himself ( I suppose).
Amaterasu is a short range Ninjutsu, he would need to be extremely close to Sasori to use it.

Look at 343, Sasuke has beaten much more than the quantity of Sasori's army, and Sasuke is probably weaker than Itachi.
Those nameless nins however dont have the weapnry, traps, brute force or resistance Sasori's puppets have.

BtW, dont underestimate Chiyo, she would have OWNED Kazekage and Hiruko had she gotten serious from the start. Chiyo is stronger than people acknoledge of her...

Anyways, once Itachi shows his true powers he will be stronger than anything weve seen up to this point.

[-Deidara-]

from the current itachi ive seen, sasori wins, until itachi goes all out, than it might change.

[Sasori]

BtW, dont underestimate Chiyo, she would have OWNED Kazekage and Hiruko had she gotten serious from the start.No .

[TWF]

Chiyo was going all out the whole fight, I fail to see how her getting anymore serious would've changed the outcome of the battle better to their advantage any sooner.

[Dread_Manda]

No, he can’t predict the puppets attacks, but he can predict their jutsus, like the iron sand, because their jutsus are made of chakra.
Itachi can avoid someone with a katana from hitting him, but if his opponent throws the katana he will not be able to predict the katana movement, only if there is chakra on the katana.

where the fuck you got that idea from. Sharingan predicts movement, all of it. Sasuke used it to copy what the guy in front of him wrote during the chuunin exam, did the guys writing hand have chakra on it?Itachi would win. Sharingan isn't all he has, Amaterasu would destroy all the puppets and he can take down a puppetless Sasori with just Tai jutsu. Don't underestimate Itachi's speed.

[Sasori]

^ YES FUCKING YES HIS HAND HAS FUCKIN CHAKRA IN IT!!!!1111 ¬___¬"

ffs seriously...

And Chiyo even stated herself that she needed Sakura to break open Hiruko.

[Mukuro]

Has there been any result in this debate yet? I might have to lift a finger.

[Sasori]

Yes, the result is that Sasori has a stronger argument, although it will not be an easy fight.

The rest of the posts are just the same points going over again and again, without once trying to refute my valid points which put this battle in favour of Sasori.

lol ffs IA just look at some of these posts in this thread, these kids r drving me crazy ¬_¬"

[00raikiri00]

Thats it. You all don't use your brains. For the love of god, y doesnt itachi just attack sasori head-on instead of the puppets. If he is able to kill sasori very early, the puppets will go down too without any chakra strings controlling them.. btw, if u havent watched the flash-backs of itachi, then u wouldnt know how skilled he was with kunai, seeing targets that were behind rocks without using sharingan. He was so skilled he even became an anbu member at 13!

[Sasori]

Thats it. You all don't use your brains. For the love of god, y doesnt itachi just attack sasori head-on instead of the puppets. If he is able to kill sasori very early, the puppets will go down too without any chakra strings controlling them.. btw, if u havent watched the flash-backs of itachi, then u wouldnt know how skilled he was with kunai, seeing targets that were behind rocks without using sharingan. He was so skilled he even became an anbu member at 13!No one says Itachi won't attack Sasori head on.

It's just the fact that Sasori's puppets are used as a defence at the same time.

Itachi needs to get through the puppets if he wishes to get to Sasori unscathed.

[TWF]

Sasori can also move through his puppets bodies instantly, a very good offensive and defensive skill.

[Mangekyo Bankai]

Again, this is all assuming that the 100 puppets are out immediately. Strategically placed Exploding clones combined with his excellent shunshin (he's done it before) would make clearing a path while destroying puppets easy. I still say Itachi would have this one, with extreme chakra loss in the end.

[Spell]

The Hidden Sound Village is a reject village. From what we saw in the Sand-Sound Invasion Arc, all of the Sound Nins, Chuunins and Jounins were getting owned by the Leaf.
Leaf is the most powerfull village. Still it lost half of it's power after invasion.

Sasuke pwning a bunch of extremely shitty ninjas does not make him bad ass. But in that same context, Sasori stated that he only took the finest and most quality ninjas and made them into puppets.

Prove they were shitty ninjas. Even Orochimaru was impressed.
And these "finest and most quality ninjas" weren't able to even harm Sakura.

Sasori sent 2 puppets against Sakura, one she destroyed and the other she was SAVED by one of Chiyo's deffence puppets.
Please re-read this arc.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDLDtwXHrdrRfMSwjy1D5rYiRrADW7jxfcObszPwHoJm0dCa KO1LAVcv*f!ZGNpvJn2tZH!vq5DE1OeOVVKV0UqsBCv*oohtKJ zYk1WPS4n*LZEt4NANA/JOJO_010.jpg?dc=4675536641419463618
and
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDuDt4XqrdrRfMSwjy1D7RT3ktowiMtV57qOd9MgyxRxJ7OD 0nZtXReYYJ79J0MCIlE3FZCdHWc4E*tRNSDO*n3Vg8*OvVhPoc iIFeW9300bJWCQ6Lw4Q/JOJO_012.jpg?dc=4675536641436388971

Not 2 puppets but 11 puppets weren't able to harm Sakura, she avoided the attack without an effort.

Here Sakura destroyed one puppet:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwA5D!MXB7lrRfMSwjy1D26z!iKBUMqBI0tWI53AEQS!gdA0n g7qOi9Mz2kodMX9jN*MopBwd8bgHQPMVELNKNS6jfpR0tEZDK6 d9Sw!HzrKCtSwatdQ7w/JOJO_008.jpg?dc=4675536641395454751


No...
Wow, nice argument. :)

Amaterasu is a short range Ninjutsu, he would need to be extremely close to Sasori to use it.
Extremaly close? Please state what is the range of Amaterasu.

Those nameless nins however dont have the weapnry, traps, brute force or resistance Sasori's puppets have.
Prove it.

Anyways, once Itachi shows his true powers he will be stronger than anything weve seen up to this point.
Plausible.

Ps. Sorry if I won't respond for few days. I have to reinstall system an all programs :/ Dunno how long it would take.

[Kai]

99% of the people in Itachi's favor assume he's going to plow through the puppets just like Sasuke plowed through those no name nins.

We saw how Sakura barely managed to dodged that chaos, and her evasion surpasses that of Itachi's.
Sasori isn't going to charge bluntly, he can attack swiftly omnidirectionally, move from body to body, 100+ puppets, 3rd Kazekage's Iron Sand, and one scratch from any puppet means instant death.

With that at hand, Itachi's genjutsu + Tsukiyomi would be useless against a puppet. He's not even alive, it wouldn't be successful. He tries Tsukiyomi OR Amaterasu and he's drained considerably. Please quit the fanboyism of Itachi just because he looks badass when he never tries and come in here with one sentence responses. The only person I see refuting for your side is Risu anyways.

[itachichoi]

Sasori will win, since eye contact is needed for sharingan to read, n no puppet or sasori will have real pupils that connects to their brains etc. to read. And Itachi ALWAYS have his sharingan on in a fight. This just proves he will b used to reading his opponents every time and then when he fights sasori n realises he cant read them, it'll be definately harder for him physically n mentally.

Oh yeah, ppl saying how sakura dodged all those puppets......... She was trained by Tsunade to dodge professionally and spent probably a worthwhile time trying to get used to it. Even then, Sakura did get hit a few times...

Itachi isn't going to dodge every fkn single one of those puppets,imagine 100 + ppl surrounding you, with swords with poison that will kill you in 1 slash... id srsly like to see you fight your way around that. Not to mention, he won't know the sweet spot to kill Sasori either.

And itachi isn't the only one with the brain if you think about it :/
Sasori won't just blindly attack itachi using his puppets, hell actually think of a strategy.

[Mibu Clan]

No.
Ummm... Did you see her against Sasori´s puppets?

She refused to use her ultimate technique until it was absolutely necesary... she believed she could take him without it. Had she used it from the start not Hiruko or Kazekage would have stood a chance.

She has 4 attack puppets, 2 deffence puppets (one posseses brute force), 1 Sealing puppet and 3 capture puppets... Imagine using them in conjuction against just Hiruko or Kazekage... They wouldnt stand a chance.

Not only do Hiruko's attacks not work on Chiyoba-sama (As seen at the beggining, she is the most experienced puppeter of all) but neither would they on her puppets... Needles and Kunai dont work on puppets, all that would be left for Hiruko is his tail, defeated by Chiyo's 3 attack puppets.

Kazekage

Kazekage's puppeter abilitys would be rendered useless against Chiyo's puppets as well, but the Satetsu would be a problem... and even then Chiyo was able to dodge most of that Jutsus attacks... To the point she could dodge Satetsu Kaihou while making Sakura dodge it as well to an extent, and this is without holding Sakura as much as before.

Please re-read this arc.
Sakura would have been killed by the second puppet Sasori sent for her, but Chiyo saved her again.
Although she did dodge the 11 puppets, each puppet attacked in the same way that jumping would save her from those attacks, and even then she was still saved by Chiyo because there were airborn puppets that Bald and Tenten destroyed for her to be able to attack.
Note: Sakura was trained by Tsunade, going all out, to evade attacks.
Wow, nice argument.
Ummm... I just dont see how the Kazekage is deadlier than Hyakki no Souen... There are more puppets, more traps, brute force and resistance. Kazekage is a single puppet, although individually greatest after Sasori, but would not present more threat than Aka Higi... There's a reason why Aka Higi is Sasori's ultimate technique.

Although I agree that Kazekage presents a bit less danger than Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen. Id put them in the same tier of power, with Aka Higi being stronger.

Extremaly close? Please state what is the range of Amaterasu
AS stated in the Databook, Amaterasu burns for 7 days and 7 nights, is as hot as the sun, and is a close range Ninjutsu... Jutsu range is 5 meters.

Itachi would have to be 5 meters close to Sasori to use Amaterasu, would have to prepare it (Close eyes for the attack) and not get attacked by puppets/traps/Sasori's tail/Flames in those 5 meters... range. And even then Sasori has his teleport Jutsu.

Prove it.
Nameless nins do not have the versatility the puppets have... Meaning they dont have the traps to launch attacks from anywhere, they are made of flesh while puppets arent, they cant be hit by a weapon without getting wounded, puppets can, the puppets resistance is made so that you can defend with it (Ex. Kunai and Needles dont work... while they do on Human flesh (Hyuuga aside)) and lastly the Sharingan Sasuke posseses allows him to predict each one of the Shinobi's movements, while he cant do that with a puppet.

So yeah Sasori's army of puppets, which is superior to the Kazekage puppet, is stronger than those nins.

Plausible.

Im saying that Itachi from what we've seen so far isnt stronger than Sasori, but once he uses his true powers he is the man who is stronger than Orochimaru.

No doubt in my mind that Itachi IS stronger than Sasori, but not from what he's up to now.

[Spell]

Shit I had to write it one more time.
Sakura would have been killed by the second puppet Sasori sent for her, but Chiyo saved her again.
Although she did dodge the 11 puppets, each puppet attacked in the same way that jumping would save her from those attacks, and even then she was still saved by Chiyo because there were airborn puppets that Bald and Tenten destroyed for her to be able to attack.
The fact puppets attacked in the same way gives evidence about their abilities. Sakura wasn't saved by Chiyo that time, her puppets cleared the way for Sakura to aim Sasori. Nothing more.
Note: Sakura was trained by Tsunade, going all out, to evade attacks.
This doesn't make her stronger than Itachi.

Ummm... I just dont see how the Kazekage is deadlier than Hyakki no Souen... There are more puppets, more traps, brute force and resistance. Kazekage is a single puppet, although individually greatest after Sasori, but would not present more threat than Aka Higi... There's a reason why Aka Higi is Sasori's ultimate technique.

Although I agree that Kazekage presents a bit less danger than Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen. Id put them in the same tier of power, with Aka Higi being stronger.

Sasori's army is quantity over quality. I won't work against Itachi. Kazekages puppet is IMO much more deadlier. I'm curious how would Itachi manage with it:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgBMDtsbYQxuR0F0StOgzmzPSPF6UiaqORVpXlMq6WSoc4Xhx N9sdMwrf408AdTmrOtTEsz9Q5fImLeDpadFNtJfPPP3LNu2yii EyoHV6D1KGxFyDfYq69vr3Q8sA31boWiuzCqjnH4/naruto_ch270_p11-12.png?dc=4675545500151847785

AS stated in the Databook, Amaterasu burns for 7 days and 7 nights, is as hot as the sun, and is a close range Ninjutsu... Jutsu range is 5 meters.
I've just realized Tsukiyomi is 5 meters rangewd jutsu too 0_o

Itachi would have to be 5 meters close to Sasori to use Amaterasu, would have to prepare it (Close eyes for the attack) and not get attacked by puppets/traps/Sasori's tail/Flames in those 5 meters... range. And even then Sasori has his teleport Jutsu.
Yes it won't be easy. He would have to make a good opportunity to use MS.


Nameless nins do not have the versatility the puppets have... Meaning they dont have the traps to launch attacks from anywhere, they are made of flesh while puppets arent, they cant be hit by a weapon without getting wounded, puppets can, the puppets resistance is made so that you can defend with it (Ex. Kunai and Needles dont work... while they do on Human flesh (Hyuuga aside)) You don't know the versatility of sound shinobi. There probably were some jounin level ninja. However we will never know it :/

and lastly the Sharingan Sasuke posseses allows him to predict each one of the Shinobi's movements, while he cant do that with a puppet.
It's debatable. However we are unable to state the truth for sure, only Kishimoto knows it (and I hope he will explain it someday). Anyhow fro what we've know sharingan isn't probably able to predict theri moves.

So yeah Sasori's army of puppets, which is superior to the Kazekage puppet, is stronger than those nins.
No evidence, still.


Im saying that Itachi from what we've seen so far isnt stronger than Sasori, but once he uses his true powers he is the man who is stronger than Orochimaru.

No doubt in my mind that Itachi IS stronger than Sasori, but not from what he's up to now.
Yeah I believe Itachi is second strongest in Akatsuki. We still lack knowledge about him, that's why i don't like "Itachi vs someone" fights.

[Mibu Clan]

Shit I had to write it one more time.

The fact puppets attacked in the same way gives evidence about their abilities. Sakura wasn't saved by Chiyo that time, her puppets cleared the way for Sakura to aim Sasori. Nothing more.
We already know Sasori has attack patterns... Which is his weakness. in Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen those patterns are more evident because more puppets repeat them.

This doesn't make her stronger than Itachi.
I never said she was though... But she still has incredible dodging abilities. And this was made evident during the whole fight as well her flashback.


Sasori's army is quantity over quality. I won't work against Itachi. Kazekages puppet is IMO much more deadlier. I'm curious how would Itachi manage with it:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgBMDtsbYQxuR0F0StOgzmzPSPF6UiaqORVpXlMq6WSoc4Xhx N9sdMwrf408AdTmrOtTEsz9Q5fImLeDpadFNtJfPPP3LNu2yii EyoHV6D1KGxFyDfYq69vr3Q8sA31boWiuzCqjnH4/naruto_ch270_p11-12.png?dc=4675545500151847785
You still dont get it though, yes Sandaime Kazekage puppet> Aka Higi's puppets individually... But all the puppets together surpass the Sandaime puppet, which is why Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen> Sandaime Kazekage
There is a reason one is Sasori's ultimate Jutsu.

Im not saying Itachi would have difficulty defeating 2-3 puppets, but also note that Sasori's army was directed at 12 things, where as against Itachi it would be directed at a single person. Also Sasori most likely defeated the Sandaime with this Jutsu...

I've just realized Tsukiyomi is 5 meters rangewd jutsu too 0_o
Thats good though, imagine Itachi being able to use it on someone at Long Range, it'd make him even more of a God.


Yes it won't be easy. He would have to make a good opportunity to use MS.
Indeed... :P


You don't know the versatility of sound shinobi. There probably were some jounin level ninja. However we will never know it :/
Orochimaru's elite Ninja were the Sound 5, who were at most with CS2 Low Jounin level.


It's debatable. However we are unable to state the truth for sure, only Kishimoto knows it (and I hope he will explain it someday). Anyhow fro what we've know sharingan isn't probably able to predict theri moves.
There's really no reason for the Sharingan to be able to predict its moves though... I mean he may be able to see through Sasori's attack patterns, but the fact that he cant get a single SCRATCH from Sasori's army and its all directed at him...


No evidence, still.
I really dont get your point here, I doubt any of those Ninja would even have the level of the Sound 5, Orochimaru's elite...

Im not saying that each puppet individually> anyone, but together they are Sasori's greatest Jutsu, and thats a fact.

Also, as I said, not only is Sasuke extremely fast, has Sharingan's predicting abilities, the Kusanagi sword and is a genius which all adds to the fact that he would easily defeat those nins... Where as I doubt he'd do the same to Sasori's Jutsu.

Not just that, but Sasori also defeated a country with that Jutsu, probably, filled with Ninja was useless as those Sasuke fought.

Yeah I believe Itachi is second strongest in Akatsuki. We still lack knowledge about him, that's why i don't like "Itachi vs someone" fights.

Actually I get the feeling that the members who move alone are stronger than the stronger Shinobi of those who move in groups... Meaning Leader, Female and Zetzu> Itachi (But he hast shown one attack to Akatsuki which puts him on Female and Zetzu's power... well thats my theory :amuse )

[Spell]

We already know Sasori has attack patterns... Which is his weakness. in Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen those patterns are more evident because more puppets repeat them.
Exactly :amuse, you proved that avoiding their attacks isn't so difficult. If sakura managed to do it then Itachi wouldn't have a problem.


I never said she was though... But she still has incredible dodging abilities. And this was made evident during the whole fight as well her flashback.
I agree, but even her dodging abilities are so great, we still can't compare them to Itachi's due to speed.


You still dont get it though, yes Sandaime Kazekage puppet> Aka Higi's puppets individually... But all the puppets together surpass the Sandaime puppet, which is why Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen> Sandaime Kazekage
There is a reason one is Sasori's ultimate Jutsu.

Im not saying Itachi would have difficulty defeating 2-3 puppets, but also note that Sasori's army was directed at 12 things, where as against Itachi it would be directed at a single person.
Not necessarily single person. You forgot about KB.
Itachi's aim in this fight is Sasori, so he can just clear the way (like chiyo's puppets did) to Sasori and get rid of the army by destroying the fake. Chakra strings would be deprived of connections like in the manga fight.

Clearing the way shouldn't be so difficult. For example he can use 2KB to clear the way [Chiyo used 2 puppets] and attack Sasori with his highest speed. No doubt puppets won't be able to keep up with that speed.

Facing Kazekage's puppet is way different. Sasori can use sand to protect himself from attack, force Itachi to move back which would make him being unable to use Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. [howevr there's possiblity Itachi is able to use the "Implosion" MS technique, but we don't know it :/]

Also Sasori most likely defeated the Sandaime with this Jutsu...
Maybe, but I doubt he did it just with his army. Most likely he was forced to use himself. Defeating the army would be much more easier for Sandaime than for Itachi, because of his silver sand abilities ( he can annihilate them, or most of them in an instant with this:http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgBMDtsbYQxuR0F0StOgzmzPSPF6UiaqORVpXlMq6WSoc4Xhx N9sdMwrf408AdTmrOtTEsz9Q5fImLeDpadFNtJfPPP3LNu2yii EyoHV6D1KGxFyDfYq69vr3Q8sA31boWiuzCqjnH4/naruto_ch270_p11-12.png?dc=4675545500151847785)


Thats good though, imagine Itachi being able to use it on someone at Long Range, it'd make him even more of a God.
Yeah it would be almost imposible to avoid it.

Orochimaru's elite Ninja were the Sound 5, who were at most with CS2 Low Jounin level.
Sound 5 were elite because of their teamwork and barrier jutsu abilities. C'mon there must be some jounins in Sound village.



There's really no reason for the Sharingan to be able to predict its moves though... I mean he may be able to see through Sasori's attack patterns, but the fact that he cant get a single SCRATCH from Sasori's army and its all directed at him...
:/ yes, probably. However I'll repeat my mantra - "not enough information":P


I really dont get your point here, I doubt any of those Ninja would even have the level of the Sound 5, Orochimaru's elite...
Explained somewhere above:nod
Im not saying that each puppet individually> anyone, but together they are Sasori's greatest Jutsu, and thats a fact.
A fact? Well I'm not so sure. It is of course a great jutsu, but it work better against a big quantity of opponenets (like a whole village)

Also, as I said, not only is Sasuke extremely fast, has Sharingan's predicting abilities, the Kusanagi sword and is a genius which all adds to the fact that he would easily defeat those nins... Where as I doubt he'd do the same to Sasori's Jutsu.
I doubt it too, however Sasuke is not on Itachi's level.
Not just that, but Sasori also defeated a country with that Jutsu, probably, filled with Ninja was useless as those Sasuke fought.
Most likely.


Actually I get the feeling that the members who move alone are stronger than the stronger Shinobi of those who move in groups... Meaning Leader, Female and Zetzu> Itachi (But he hast shown one attack to Akatsuki which puts him on Female and Zetzu's power... well thats my theory :amuse )
I believe Itachi is the second strongest just because of shonen manga rules. My logic is simple.
1. Naruto and Sasuke are going to be the 2 strongest shinobi ever.
2. Narutos "natural anemy" is AL, Sasuke's "natural" anemy is Itachi.

In that case I believe AL and Itachi have to be the strongest.

Also we don't know if Zetsu and Byakko aren't oaired with anyone, or it's just the result of the 10th member absence. My hipothesis is that female Akatsuki would be also Sakura's "natural anemy". But it's just a theory:nod

[zackzeal]

itachi, just because....
besides, oro was gonna take out sasori on the bridge, but wouldnt even try with little itachi.... i dunno... hahaha im not making sense

[Kai]

itachi, just because....
besides, oro was gonna take out sasori on the bridge, but wouldnt even try with little itachi.... i dunno... hahaha im not making sense

Yeah, you're not... exactly how Orochimaru wets his panties at the thought of Itachi, but Jiraiya was ready to annihlate him, and nearly succeeded.

[Chaos Hokage]

I say Sasori would win. With his 3rd Kazekage puppet, Sasori has control of magnetism because of the 3rd Kazekage's possible kekkai genkai. This means that weapons of iron & steel are useless against Sasori with his 3rd Kazekage puppet. So it's possible that Sasori can use Itachi's weapons against him. He could tighten the metal part of Itachi's headband until Itachi's brain is squeeze out.

[Spell]

and nearly succeeded.
Actually it's not true. He didn't do anything to Itachi. The fact both Itachi and Kisame run away doesn't make Jiraiya stronger than them.

[Kai]

Actually it's not true. He didn't do anything to Itachi. The fact both Itachi and Kisame run away doesn't make Jiraiya stronger than them.

No its more like Kisame was done for, and Itachi had to resort to one of his two strongest jutsu shown thus far(Amaterasu) to escape.

[Spell]

No its more like Kisame was done for, and Itachi had to resort to one of his two strongest jutsu shown thus far(Amaterasu) to escape.

Kisame was surprised why do they have to retreat. They retreated because Naruto turned out to be much weaker than they thought, not because they were afraid of Jiraiya. Furthermore it would be a little unwise to fight a sannin after double MS usage. Itachi reserved Amaterasu for the retreat.

[TWF]

No, regardless they were at a complete disadvantage when they're rendered in battle against a Sannin's summon, while being trapped in it. Kisame and Itachi wouldn't have had a chance even if Itachi hadn't exhausted himself with using the MS on Sasuke purposesly to the bigger picture.

[Kai]

Kisame was surprised why do they have to retreat. They retreated because Naruto turned out to be much weaker than they thought, not because they were afraid of Jiraiya. Furthermore it would be a little unwise to fight a sannin after double MS usage. Itachi reserved Amaterasu for the retreat.

Kisame couldn't do anything about it, they had to rely on Itachi. Itachi wouldn't use Amaterasu(which deteriorates his eyeesite) if there was another way out of the situation.

Jiraiya isn't stupid. He thought up of an elite jutsu to swallow up 2 Akatsuki members in a fight. He's not going to use a jutsu that a Jounin can break out of.

[Sasori]

Ummm... Did you see her against Sasori´s puppets?

She refused to use her ultimate technique until it was absolutely necesary... she believed she could take him without it. Had she used it from the start not Hiruko or Kazekage would have stood a chance.

She has 4 attack puppets, 2 deffence puppets (one posseses brute force), 1 Sealing puppet and 3 capture puppets... Imagine using them in conjuction against just Hiruko or Kazekage... They wouldnt stand a chance.Satetsu Kaihou would destroy them easily.

Even if they did survive that barrage (which is unlikely), don't forget the effect of Satetsu in the puppets joints.

Not only do Hiruko's attacks not work on Chiyoba-sama (As seen at the beggining, she is the most experienced puppeter of all) but neither would they on her puppets... Needles and Kunai dont work on puppets, all that would be left for Hiruko is his tail, defeated by Chiyo's 3 attack puppets.I agree somewhat agree with this but i don't think Sasori would not react if Chiyo brought out her 10 puppet performance.

Kazekage

Kazekage's puppeter abilitys would be rendered useless against Chiyo's puppets as well, but the Satetsu would be a problem... and even then Chiyo was able to dodge most of that Jutsus attacks... To the point she could dodge Satetsu Kaihou while making Sakura dodge it as well to an extent, and this is without holding Sakura as much as before.Look at the panel where Satetsu Kaihou is performed again.

Chiyo was not on the front line where Sakura was, and the jutsu was targetted at her.

Sasori wasn't aiming for Chiyo, and nonetheless, the area of affect was large enough to even force her to retreat from the sidelines where she was controlling Sakura from.

Ummm... I just dont see how the Kazekage is deadlier than Hyakki no Souen... There are more puppets, more traps, brute force and resistance. Kazekage is a single puppet, although individually greatest after Sasori, but would not present more threat than Aka Higi... There's a reason why Aka Higi is Sasori's ultimate technique.Only you are claiming that Aka Higi is Sasori's ultimate technique. The way I see it, is that Sandaime Kazekage and Aka Higi techniques are used for different occassions.

Sandaime Kazekage could prove more useful when fighting a fast, nimble character, that may be successful in dodging and also destroying the majority of Aka Higi's puppets.

Not to say that Itachi would be able to do this without being scratched, but I don't think there is any way to dodge Satetsu Kaihou, as the nature of the attack allows almost no room for movement, unless you are at the outskirts of the target area.

I would use Satetsu Kaihou in a battle against Itachi, rather than Aka Higi.

Although I agree that Kazekage presents a bit less danger than Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen. Id put them in the same tier of power, with Aka Higi being stronger.This isn't a case of which jutsu is stronger. It is circumstancial.

It is like comparing 2 strong jutsus of the same tier, one a Katon and the other a Suiton.

Just because Katon may potentially be more destructive, you would choose Suiton to fight an Katon user (or woteva the opposite element was).

You still dont get it though, yes Sandaime Kazekage puppet> Aka Higi's puppets individually... But all the puppets together surpass the Sandaime puppet, which is why Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen> Sandaime Kazekage
There is a reason one is Sasori's ultimate Jutsu.No, this is not stated anywhere. I have explained above that its uses are circumstancial, and are tactically selected.

Im not saying that each puppet individually> anyone, but together they are Sasori's greatest Jutsu, and thats a fact.No it really isn't lol

If you really want to argue this point, I can just equally say that there is a reason Kazekage Sandaime was Sasori's favourite puppet.

[Mibu Clan]

Exactly :amuse, you proved that avoiding their attacks isn't so difficult. If sakura managed to do it then Itachi wouldn't have a problem.
One thing is to have Attack patterns, which Sasori has using all puppets, and another is them being easily dodged...

Sakura may be able to dodge 11 puppets attacking in the same manner, but the way she dodged she was open to air puppet attacks, which is where Chiyo came in handy...


I agree, but even her dodging abilities are so great, we still can't compare them to Itachi's due to speed.
I agree, but also the whole attack wasnt aimed at her either, Sasori was also fighting Chiyo's puppets more than Sakura...


Not necessarily single person. You forgot about KB.
Itachi's aim in this fight is Sasori, so he can just clear the way (like chiyo's puppets did) to Sasori and get rid of the army by destroying the fake. Chakra strings would be deprived of connections like in the manga fight.
Even Chiyo said there were to many and she had 10 people at her disposal...

I can only see Itachi using a few KB explosions... to take out how many pupptes?

Clearing the way shouldn't be so difficult. For example he can use 2KB to clear the way [Chiyo used 2 puppets] and attack Sasori with his highest speed. No doubt puppets won't be able to keep up with that speed.
Thing is she didnt... she barely got any puppets and Sasori still had too many puppets at his disposal.

Facing Kazekage's puppet is way different. Sasori can use sand to protect himself from attack, force Itachi to move back which would make him being unable to use Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. [howevr there's possiblity Itachi is able to use the "Implosion" MS technique, but we don't know it :/]
His Hyakki no Souen is also a deffence Jutsu, he can use some puppets to defend himself with as well...
In fact, AKHnS is better to get Itachi away... He has more with which to attack.


Maybe, but I doubt he did it just with his army. Most likely he was forced to use himself. Defeating the army would be much more easier for Sandaime than for Itachi, because of his silver sand abilities ( he can annihilate them, or most of them in an instant with this:http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgBMDtsbYQxuR0F0StOgzmzPSPF6UiaqORVpXlMq6WSoc4Xhx N9sdMwrf408AdTmrOtTEsz9Q5fImLeDpadFNtJfPPP3LNu2yii EyoHV6D1KGxFyDfYq69vr3Q8sA31boWiuzCqjnH4/naruto_ch270_p11-12.png?dc=4675545500151847785)
Himself includes his Army... Its actually one of himselfs Jutsus'.

Sound 5 were elite because of their teamwork and barrier jutsu abilities. C'mon there must be some jounins in Sound village.
Who did Orochimaru send to get his most desired body? Why not send somone stronger if he was in such a hurry... and Kabuto couldnt leave him.

A fact? Well I'm not so sure. It is of course a great jutsu, but it work better against a big quantity of opponenets (like a whole village)
It was stated in the manga as Sasori's final trick as well as ultimate Jutsu.


I believe Itachi is the second strongest just because of shonen manga rules. My logic is simple.
1. Naruto and Sasuke are going to be the 2 strongest shinobi ever.
2. Narutos "natural anemy" is AL, Sasuke's "natural" anemy is Itachi.

In that case I believe AL and Itachi have to be the strongest.

Also we don't know if Zetsu and Byakko aren't oaired with anyone, or it's just the result of the 10th member absence. My hipothesis is that female Akatsuki would be also Sakura's "natural anemy". But it's just a theory:nod

Actually, ImO Kabuto is Sakura's final opponent.

Kisame couldn't do anything about it, they had to rely on Itachi. Itachi wouldn't use Amaterasu(which deteriorates his eyeesite) if there was another way out of the situation.

Jiraiya isn't stupid. He thought up of an elite jutsu to swallow up 2 Akatsuki members in a fight. He's not going to use a jutsu that a Jounin can break out of
Itachi is stated in the Manga, the Databook, and the Manga agin to be stronger than Orochimaru.

Orochimaru left Akatsuki because of Itachi, and he left 7 years ago pre timeskip.

Finally, Kisame and Itachi were EXPECTING Jiraiya was they said, Itachi was extremely low on Chakra and Kisame cant handle Jiraiya... Then Itachi decides to waste another MS on Sasuke.

Satetsu Kaihou would destroy them easily.

Even if they did survive that barrage (which is unlikely), don't forget the effect of Satetsu in the puppets joints.[quote]
Why is it unlikely, ImO Chiyo can easily make most puppets t\dodge that. Maybe easily is exagerating, but I have no doubt she had the power to destroy that puppet without her puppets even receiving the Iron Sand.

[quote]Look at the panel where Satetsu Kaihou is performed again.

Chiyo was not on the front line where Sakura was, and the jutsu was targetted at her.

Sasori wasn't aiming for Chiyo, and nonetheless, the area of affect was large enough to even force her to retreat from the sidelines where she was controlling Sakura from.
I know that, but the fact that Chiyo only had a single arm, wasnt using a real puppet and she still managed to have Sakura avoid most of the attack.

Only you are claiming that Aka Higi is Sasori's ultimate technique. The way I see it, is that Sandaime Kazekage and Aka Higi techniques are used for different occassions.

Sandaime Kazekage could prove more useful when fighting a fast, nimble character, that may be successful in dodging and also destroying the majority of Aka Higi's puppets.

Not to say that Itachi would be able to do this without being scratched, but I don't think there is any way to dodge Satetsu Kaihou, as the nature of the attack allows almost no room for movement, unless you are at the outskirts of the target area.

I would use Satetsu Kaihou in a battle against Itachi, rather than Aka Higi.

I agree that they are used for different occasions as you said, but Sasori's himself puppet ultimate Jutsu is that, and it was stated in the manga as his ultimate attack. (Apart from it being my fav of Sasori's attacks)

If you really want to argue this point, I can just equally say that there is a reason Kazekage Sandaime was Sasori's favourite puppet.
Sasori had already explained that. Because it can use the Sandaime's Jutsu and killing the Sandaime gave him quite a hard time.

ImO should Chiyo fight with Kazekage puppet against Sasori's Aka Higi, not only could Sasori make the needed ammount of puppets dodge, but also destroy and defeat Chiyo.

[MISTNINJA]

I say Itachi wins this, he has the physical speed and experience to avoid the puppets. Also they know each other fairly well since they are members of the same group I assume. He has jutsu to handle his army of puppets and will come out of this victorious. His Sharingan will not be as useful but will still be an advantage.

[Spell]

One thing is to have Attack patterns, which Sasori has using all puppets, and another is them being easily dodged...

Sakura may be able to dodge 11 puppets attacking in the same manner, but the way she dodged she was open to air puppet attacks, which is where Chiyo came in handy...
That time no puppets aimed for her in the air. If she would run towards Sasori and Chiyo didn't help, then it would be a big problem for her.

I agree, but also the whole attack wasnt aimed at her either, Sasori was also fighting Chiyo's puppets more than Sakura...
Agreed.

Even Chiyo said there were to many and she had 10 people at her disposal...

I can only see Itachi using a few KB explosions... to take out how many pupptes?
Chiyo and Sakura managed to get rid off the army. I explained it before Itachi could do the same, he doesn't have to take out all puppets.

Thing is she didnt... she barely got any puppets and Sasori still had too many puppets at his disposal.Yes she did it:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDHDt0XZLdrRfMSwjy1D6zKUrEkNrXKuuKvoCpPF5GNAEeCe AjL!KGzop9!tOGe29W68YA08sNJcKhshmraUg2hZiADnyCAfip i*uSA0tdyGRd12X4ctw/JOJO_011.jpg?dc=4675536641427814943


His Hyakki no Souen is also a deffence Jutsu, he can use some puppets to defend himself with as well...
In fact, AKHnS is better to get Itachi away... He has more with which to attack.To defence Sasori puppets would have to gather around him, that would make a great opportunity to use Amaterasu or explosive KB to blow them with Sasori away.


Himself includes his Army... Its actually one of himselfs Jutsus'.
If you use thia semantic, then ok, I agree.

Who did Orochimaru send to get his most desired body? Why not send somone stronger if he was in such a hurry... and Kabuto couldnt leave him.
I've already explained it. Their teamwork makes them elite. That's why he sent them. And also for plot issues

It was stated in the manga as Sasori's final trick as well as ultimate Jutsu.
Sasori's final trick was himself as a puppet.

Actually, ImO Kabuto is Sakura's final opponent.
Hopefully not Naruto's final opponent:P

[P-I-M-P]

Chiyo and Sakura managed to get rid off the army. I explained it before Itachi could do the same, he doesn't have to take out all puppets.

Yes she did it:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDHDt0XZLdrRfMSwjy1D6zKUrEkNrXKuuKvoCpPF5GNAEeCe AjL!KGzop9!tOGe29W68YA08sNJcKhshmraUg2hZiADnyCAfip i*uSA0tdyGRd12X4ctw/JOJO_011.jpg?dc=4675536641427814943

actually it didnt take out the army seeing that sasori could have just reconnected the strings.

groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter273.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12749

as you can see both the round container and the chakra string maker both teleported with him, most likely meaning he could've reconnected the strings if he wanted.

[blash]

Sasori wins this.

He has too many things going for him in this fight. Itachi would have to pull something completely new to change my opinon on this. Ive read every post and so i agree that sasori would clearly have the upper hand.

[Mibu Clan]

That time no puppets aimed for her in the air. If she would run towards Sasori and Chiyo didn't help, then it would be a big problem for her.
Indeed...


Chiyo and Sakura managed to get rid off the army. I explained it before Itachi could do the same, he doesn't have to take out all puppets.
They did get rid of the army techniquely, because they took out the real Sasori, but they didnt get rid of the army as inb destroying them all..

Se we agree that they were "taken out", while not really.

Yes she did it:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDHDt0XZLdrRfMSwjy1D6zKUrEkNrXKuuKvoCpPF5GNAEeCe AjL!KGzop9!tOGe29W68YA08sNJcKhshmraUg2hZiADnyCAfip i*uSA0tdyGRd12X4ctw/JOJO_011.jpg?dc=4675536641427814943
AS I said above, she DID get rid of the army but not get rid of it as in destroy most of them... ...

To defence Sasori puppets would have to gather around him, that would make a great opportunity to use Amaterasu or explosive KB to blow them with Sasori away.

Yes, but still he can use 25 puppets to deffend with and 75 to attack with.

If you use thia semantic, then ok, I agree.
Agreed.

I've already explained it. Their teamwork makes them elite. That's why he sent them. And also for plot issues
Do you really believe that? Kimimaro was part of that group... Id put healthy Kimimaro as one of the strongest Shinobi yet.


Sasori's final trick was himself as a puppet.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQALDrgWHGNSlX3EzDuPOH0Yny7ufAtX*1WztLet8*FX3366p *CiIRu5nodoCkRUf5L3YxrmLypK51mHa3GRCTsVP0RWUBwslZ5 wgvjaVlPg9HrqNryy4w/272_16.JPG?dc=4675535572215097586

Hopefully not Naruto's final opponent:P

ImO Tsuande vs Kabuto was preceding that ImO... Sakura and Tsunade have their obvious similaritys, and Kabuto and Sakura as well (Kabuto uses Genjutsu, Sakura WILL use Genjutsu)

[Sasori]

Final hand doesn't mean best.

It just means that it was his last trick.

You interperet it differently due to your bias lol

If he brought out Sandaime Kazekage last, it would have also have been his "final hand".

[blash]

Well in my opinon Itachi's weakness being against numbers which is exactly what he's going up against in this fight. Itachi known moves that he has shown are indeed great and powerful, but they do not come without a back draw, which happens to be the cost of charka in a great amount. And Itachi unable to catch Sasori in the Tsukuyomi because eye contact is required to do so, and Sasori being the Hiruko makes it impossible. Another factor is Itachi's Amaterasu. But with Sasori being in only one puppet out of many makes the odds against itachi very large of being able to actually hit Sasori.

Also like what has been said before, Sasori's attacks are extremely deadly to the point where a single hit is lethal. So Itachi couldn't afford to make any mistakes at all. Not to mention that the sharingan can't read the movements of lifeless objects making it even harder for Itachi to dodge them. He might able to dodge most of the attacks from sasori but how long could he keep dodging without being hit once?

Not to mention that for Itachi to win he would have to stand up against the Red Secret Technique: Performance of a Hundred Puppets which strikes Itachi's weakness against numbers and the strongest Kazekage in the history of Sunagakure.

the odds are against Itachi.

[Mibu Clan]

Final hand doesn't mean best.

It just means that it was his last trick.

You interperet it differently due to your bias lol

If he brought out Sandaime Kazekage last, it would have also have been his "final hand".

We'll have to wai for the Databook for confirmation that it is or isnt Sasori's best Jutsu... (As well as those 2 Scrolls he never used)

But there are also translations of the next chapter saying "ultimate techniques collide" or things along those lines...

Anyways ImO it is his strongest technique... (As well as his coolest)

Either way, from what we've seen so far Sasori wins...

[blash]

So is there anyone else who completly thinks that Itachi would win??

[Spell]

They did get rid of the army techniquely, because they took out the real Sasori, but they didnt get rid of the army as inb destroying them all..

Se we agree that they were "taken out", while not really.


AS I said above, she DID get rid of the army but not get rid of it as in destroy most of them... ...
That's what I was stating. Itachi doesn't have to destroy each puppet, he only have to make an opportunity to aim for Sasori. He can do it in a similar way as Chiyo and Sakura did.


Yes, but still he can use 25 puppets to deffend with and 75 to attack with.Yes but doesn't have to defeat them all, all he need is to get through them and attack Sasori.

Do you really believe that? Kimimaro was part of that group... Id put healthy Kimimaro as one of the strongest Shinobi yet.
Umm, yes I could agee, but forgive me I don't understand what is your intention here :oh


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQALDrgWHGNSlX3EzDuPOH0Yny7ufAtX*1WztLet8*FX3366p *CiIRu5nodoCkRUf5L3YxrmLypK51mHa3GRCTsVP0RWUBwslZ5 wgvjaVlPg9HrqNryy4w/272_16.JPG?dc=4675535572215097586
I agree with Sasori's comment, stated under your post.


ImO Tsuande vs Kabuto was preceding that ImO... Sakura and Tsunade have their obvious similaritys, and Kabuto and Sakura as well (Kabuto uses Genjutsu, Sakura WILL use Genjutsu)
Hm ye that would be reasonable, however there's a possibility Sakura will beat Kabuto and then female Akatsuki. We shall see :nod

[Mibu Clan]

So is there anyone else who completly thinks that Itachi would win??
I believe that Itachi IS stronger than Sasori, and would beat him (Once we've seen his true extent of abilities)...

But from what we've seen Sasori is superior.

[.MeloN.]

I believe that Itachi IS stronger than Sasori, and would beat him (Once we've seen his true extent of abilities)...

But from what we've seen Sasori is superior.

Indeed.

I think as result can only be decided upon once Itachi shows his power.

[blash]

I believe that Itachi IS stronger than Sasori, and would beat him (Once we've seen his true extent of abilities)...

But from what we've seen Sasori is superior.

But we have no idea if Itachi has any more abilites or not, so i can simply assum that he doesnt.

In that case Sasori wins

[Mibu Clan]

That's what I was stating. Itachi doesn't have to destroy each puppet, he only have to make an opportunity to aim for Sasori. He can do it in a similar way as Chiyo and Sakura did.
But thats where we disagree... I agree to the fact that not all puppets have to be destroyed.
But destroying them and attacking Sasori (His core specifically)... Thats where I dont see Itachi managing.


Yes but doesn't have to defeat them all, all he need is to get through them and attack Sasori.

Agreed. but also look above.

Umm, yes I could agee, but forgive me I don't understand what is your intention here :oh
Sasuke defeating the army...

I agree with Sasori's comment, stated under your post.
I understand that, but this is Sasori puppet we're talking about, and its strongest Jutsu. Like I said, we'll have to wait for the next Databook to confirm, but atleast we agree that Kazekage puppet and Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen are Jutsus in the same power tier.

Hm ye that would be reasonable, however there's a possibility Sakura will beat Kabuto and then female Akatsuki. We shall see :nod
Oh I hope not... I definetly want Female to be "defeated" by someone who isnt a woman, and people dont unerestimate.

Offtopic: You guys are SERIOUSLY underestimating Chiyo... ImO she is really REALLY strong. Her Shiro Higi: Jikki Chikamatsu no Shu was by far one of the strongest Jutsus weve seen in the series.

Chiyo is the coolest Female to date!! :amuse

[Sasori]

Technically Aka Higi may be Sasori's strongest technique as Satetsu Kaihou is Sandaime Kazekage's technique.

[blash]

Sasori's puppets
Hiruko

Large poisoning "tongue" stinger.
Mouth needle launcher
Needle launching arm
Third Kazekage

Iron Sand abilities
Massive amount of summoning arms
Many hidden bladed weapons
Poison gas launcher
Sasori

Large poisoned stomach cable that acts as a stinger
Blade-equipped attached arms
Flamethrowers in each real arm
Scroll carrier on back
Hundred puppets

Almost every weapon poisoned

[Mibu Clan]

Technically Aka Higi may be Sasori's strongest technique as Satetsu Kaihou is Sandaime Kazekage's technique.

But Sandaime KAzekage IS Sasori, as he is the one who posseses the Jutsu and the man... Therefore anything Sandaime does is actually Sasori... Techniquely, all of Sandaime's jutsu are Sasori's...

He even talks of them as his own ("As long as I have the Sandaime's abilities those things are useless")

[Qrαhms]

There's nothing Itachi can do to hurt Sasori and his puppets (all of his puppets), so I'll conclude that Sasori will take this.

[Sasori]

But Sandaime KAzekage IS Sasori, as he is the one who posseses the Jutsu and the man... Therefore anything Sandaime does is actually Sasori... Techniquely, all of Sandaime's jutsu are Sasori's...

He even talks of them as his own ("As long as I have the Sandaime's abilities those things are useless")lol you do know that I was just being devil's advocate xD?

[TWF]

Sasori with Sandaime Kazekage, pwning your Itachis.

[Yamato]

Itachi wins. Art of run makes him impossible to defeat, there always is "another time" and "underestimated weather".

[Bannai]

Let's just say the poll is biased and completely useless. Sasori is low level in Akatsuki, Itachi is their greatest member. We know Itachi wouldn't even take Sasori seriously, as there's only so much a puppet user can do. His weaknesses are painfully obvious in front of a genius stronger than Oro, and we know Sasori's attack speed isn't impressive. He couldn't even kill Sakura. Sasori was good at what he did, that is using puppets to poison weaker opponents, but in the end an expandable weakling, not acknowledged as a threat, the Leader talking to him in condescending tone, Itachi not even dignify his words with response, and Orochimaru prepared to kill him despite his body rejecting him. In the eyes of high level shinobi he is just a poor boy who turn himself into a puppet because he didn't know any better. The proof of weakness.

Itachi would win.

[Yondaime Hokage]

Sasori=Own Itachi you ask why i say this? 1st the MS can use that jutsu to trap sasori in another demantion but sasori wont feell pain so also his pupets will not be traped so u guys get it sasori owns.

[Yondaime Hokage]

Sasori=Own Itachi you ask why i say this? 1st the MS can use that jutsu to trap sasori in another demantion but sasori wont feell pain so also his pupets will not be traped so u guys get it sasori owns.

[Gaara]

Sasori will beat them all! But yeah..I think Sasori will win anyways

[Spell]

But thats where we disagree... I agree to the fact that not all puppets have to be destroyed.
But destroying them and attacking Sasori (His core specifically)... Thats where I dont see Itachi managing.
If Sakura and Chiyo were able to do it then IMO Itachi is able to do it too. Anyhow neither me and you can't prove himself right.

Sasuke defeating the army...
C'mon there had to be some (at least) chuunins, and look at the quantity. How may of them Sasuke has beaten? 500? 1000? Still much more than Sasori's army. Even if every single puppet was a little stronger than a single sound shinobi, the number of ninjas would make both army's power comparable. Notice tht even Orochimaru was impressed, his words distinctly proved Sasuke is an incredible genius.

Itachi is stronger.


I understand that, but this is Sasori puppet we're talking about, and its strongest Jutsu. Like I said, we'll have to wait for the next Databook to confirm, but atleast we agree that Kazekage puppet and Aka Higi: Hyakki no Souen are Jutsus in the same power tier.
Yes I agree, they are in the same power tier and we should wait for the databook too.

Oh I hope not... I definetly want Female to be "defeated" by someone who isnt a woman, and people dont unerestimate.
yeah, people tend to underrate each kunoichi.

Offtopic: You guys are SERIOUSLY underestimating Chiyo... ImO she is really REALLY strong. Her Shiro Higi: Jikki Chikamatsu no Shu was by far one of the strongest Jutsus weve seen in the series.
I don't :oh. She is kage level IMO.

Chiyo is the coolest Female to date!! :amuse
:leepose Good luck!

[Cabbage Cabrera]

Sasori only has to worry about Itachi's ameterasu and Tsukiyomi won't effect him because his eyes are made of wood. I give this to Sasori.

[blash]

Itachi can't win this fight, i've explained it already. Sasori has to much for Itachi to handle. So I'll say it again.

Itachi can't handle numbers well at all, but in this fight Sasori can bring numbers (puppets) to the table. Itachi has shown that he doesnt have all the chakra in the world to be able to waste in this battle, Itachi can't preform his Tsukuyomi because he cant make eye contact with Sasori. And the Amaterasu will be useless if Itachi doesnt hit the right puppet, when theres so many in front of him to handle at once.

Each attack is lethal and can kill, just one attack could end the battle, from any puppet. Also Itaci's sharingan can't track movements of lifeless obejects and the puppets are indeed not alive.

so if anyone thinks that Sasori will lose, explain how Itachi will win

[Katalyze]

Let's just say the poll is biased and completely useless. Sasori is low level in Akatsuki, Itachi is their greatest member. We know Itachi wouldn't even take Sasori seriously
Itachi would win.

Umm look whos talking?

[Kai]

Let's just say the poll is biased and completely useless. Sasori is low level in Akatsuki, Itachi is their greatest member. We know Itachi wouldn't even take Sasori seriously, as there's only so much a puppet user can do. His weaknesses are painfully obvious in front of a genius stronger than Oro, and we know Sasori's attack speed isn't impressive.
This is coming from an Uchiha fanboy like yourself. Comparisons with Orochimaru in this fight is just stupid, because anyone can come up with that power triangle of Jiraiya, Itachi, and Oro.

Tsukiyomi is useless + one nick is instant death. Not to mention Sasori has the 3rd Kazekage by his side.

He couldn't even kill Sakura.
Sakura's evasion > Itachi's. She's a highly trained medic nin who are taught to not get hit by any circumstances. Even Sakura got stabbed at the end and would have horribly perished if not by her antidote.

Itachi will get nicked and it will be fatal.


Sasori was good at what he did, that is using puppets to poison weaker opponents, but in the end an expandable weakling, not acknowledged as a threat, the Leader talking to him in condescending tone, Itachi not even dignify his words with response, and Orochimaru prepared to kill him despite his body rejecting him. In the eyes of high level shinobi he is just a poor boy who turn himself into a puppet because he didn't know any better. The proof of weakness.

Itachi would win.
Those are poor arguments. The Leader speaks to all members in a condescending tone. Hidan + Kakuzu? Are they "low level" Akatsuki as well?

Orochimaru has been working as Sasori's partner in Akatsuki. He may very well have been developing an immunity to Sasori's poison as well as acquiring knowledge beforehand of his weakness. He also had Kabuto, a superior medic nin than Sakura, to heal his wounds if he desperately needed it.
They already had that meeting planned out, and Oro's body was doing fine at that point of time.

And yeah, Sasori is just a poor boy that turned himself into a puppet, and killing the mosts elite shinobi and turning them into puppets too, as well as taking down an entire country + the 3rd Kazekage(stated to be the strongest kazekage ever). A low level Akatsuki for sure, he can kill you very easily in MANY different ways.

[P-I-M-P]

Let's just say the poll is biased and completely useless.

the only thing biased around here is you and your uber fanboyism.

Sasori is low level in Akatsuki, Itachi is their greatest member. We know Itachi wouldn't even take Sasori seriously, as there's only so much a puppet user can do. His weaknesses are painfully obvious in front of a genius stronger than Oro.

Low level? and you say itachi wouldn't thank him serious. not taking sasori serious is a huge mistake that would cost him his life even faster. sasori is not your ordinary puppeteer; he has hundreds of puppets compared to the average 10 or less, has a puppet body which feels not pain at all (taijutsu not a big concern for him), he also has taijutsu capabilities of his own that most puppeteers dont have. thinking sasori has the same weaknesses as your average puppeteer is a grave weakness for his opponent.

we know Sasori's attack speed isn't impressive. He couldn't even kill Sakura.

you dont need impressive speed when you have the kazekage puppet and hundreds of other of other puppets under your control. he killed sakura three times in that fight, her life only being saved by having an antidote.

Sasori was good at what he did, that is using puppets to poison weaker opponents, but in the end an expandable weakling, not acknowledged as a threat,

your funny. in that non-funny way.

the Leader talking to him in condescending tone

he would talk to everbody like the he is the Leader afterall, but i dont really recall when he spoke to sasori like that.

Itachi not even dignify his words with response, and Orochimaru prepared to kill him despite his body rejecting him. In the eyes of high level shinobi he is just a poor boy who turn himself into a puppet because he didn't know any better. The proof of weakness.

itachi didnt say anything because he did want sasori or deidara to capture naruto before he did. and oro was planning on ambushing him( leading me to believe he respected sasori's strength) which is pretty cowardly seeing that he was hiding and brought kabuto to help.

Itachi would win.

if thats what you think.

[Spell]

Sakura's evasion > Itachi's.
It's true Sakura's evasion is impressive, but there is no doubt her avoiding abilities can't be compared to Itachi's due to speed. It's still different leauge.

[Mibu Clan]

C'mon there had to be some (at least) chuunins, and look at the quantity. How may of them Sasuke has beaten? 500? 1000? Still much more than Sasori's army. Even if every single puppet was a little stronger than a single sound shinobi, the number of ninjas would make both army's power comparable. Notice tht even Orochimaru was impressed, his words distinctly proved Sasuke is an incredible genius.
Orochimaru just notes the fact that Sasuke's genius makes him look like nothing, which is true.

Also, ImO Aka Higi is by far a Jutsu which could ImO do the same thing Sasuke did. Because of the fact that he took down an enitire country with it, therefore he too fought a shitload of Shinobis too...

ImO Sasori's techniques>>> Random Ninja gathered together.
Itachi is stronger.
Itachi is God...

Yes I agree, they are in the same power tier and we should wait for the databook too.
Agreed.


yeah, people tend to underrate each kunoichi.
Most underrated Female is Chiyo... ...

I don't :oh. She is kage level IMO.
Well thats good to hear, most people put her as extremely weak. The fact that they say "Sasori beaten by that old woman and Sakura" pisses me off to no end, because of the fact that Chiyo was extremely strong... Its just that people tend to underestimate puppets.

[Kai]

It's true Sakura's evasion is impressive, but there is no doubt her avoiding abilities can't be compared to Itachi's due to speed. It's still different leauge.

That is a common miconception by many. Evasion =/= speed. I don't have to be as fast as a bullet do dodge a bullet.

[Sasori]

Let's just say the poll is biased and completely useless. Sasori is low level in Akatsuki, Itachi is their greatest member. We know Itachi wouldn't even take Sasori seriously, as there's only so much a puppet user can do. His weaknesses are painfully obvious in front of a genius stronger than Oro, and we know Sasori's attack speed isn't impressive. He couldn't even kill Sakura. Sasori was good at what he did, that is using puppets to poison weaker opponents, but in the end an expandable weakling, not acknowledged as a threat, the Leader talking to him in condescending tone, Itachi not even dignify his words with response, and Orochimaru prepared to kill him despite his body rejecting him. In the eyes of high level shinobi he is just a poor boy who turn himself into a puppet because he didn't know any better. The proof of weakness.

Itachi would win.I agree. Fuck you Sasori fanboys.

[Spell]

Orochimaru just notes the fact that Sasuke's genius makes him look like nothing, which is true.

Also, ImO Aka Higi is by far a Jutsu which could ImO do the same thing Sasuke did. Because of the fact that he took down an enitire country with it, therefore he too fought a shitload of Shinobis too...

ImO Sasori's techniques>>> Random Ninja gathered together.
Seems we won't agree on that matter :/
We are going circles so I suppose we should leave it until more info is revealed.

Itachi is God...
If you say so xD

Most underrated Female is Chiyo... ...
I think most underrated are Kurenai and Tsunade.


Well thats good to hear, most people put her as extremely weak. The fact that they say "Sasori beaten by that old woman and Sakura" pisses me off to no end, because of the fact that Chiyo was extremely strong... Its just that people tend to underestimate puppets.
Yeah, I think Sakura is underrated too.

That is a common miconception by many. Evasion =/= speed. I don't have to be as fast as a bullet do dodge a bullet.

I do not state evasion = speed. Speed is a big help when shinobi wants to avoid an attack. Sakura's evasion is considerable because she is a medic nin, that's true. But her speed isn't comparable to Itachi's, and speed is a factor that facilitates evading. That's why if shinobi has great speed it is easier for him to avoid an attack.

I agree. Fuck you Sasori fanboys.
XD LOL

[Sasori]

In terms of the evasion/speed arguement, the reason why Sakura's evasion can be arguably superior to Itachi's is the practice and learning the mechanics of evasion.

Sakura training in evasion with a Sannin, would have it conditioned in her body, ie. reactions to attacks become simple reflexes for her.

However, I do think that Itachi's speed compensates for this, and can evade as well as Sakura.

Those two statements may sound contradictory but here is an example of what I mean:

Sakura is attacked; but because she is conditioned to evade, she has a high likelyhood of evading successfully because her body instantly reacts in that way. She doesn't need to think, as evasion is almost a reflex.

Itachi is attacked; Itachi isn't as accustomed to evasion as Sakura, as he is usually on the offensive, so he will not have this second-nature reaction as Sakura has. However, due to his speed, he may be able to analyse the attack and evade successfully, although this takes thinking and interpretation which has a minimal margin of error.

[Spell]

I agree with you Sasori. Your interpretation is very reasonable.

However I do believe Itachi still has an advantage. Sakura is only 15 and was trained by sannin for only 2.5 years, Itachi is 21 and Akatsuki for 8 years. In that case his experience is superior to Sakura's. No doubt.

He fought many powerfull shinobi, was able to kill whole clan at very young age, he had to have impressive evading skills, because if he hadn't he would be killed by Uchihas (they had quantity advantage).That's the way he has to be at least as skilled in evading as Sakura.

[Sasori]

Well if you see that flashbacks of when he killed the Uchiha clan, there wasn't just a huge pile of people on the floor like how we saw with Sasuke and those nameless nins.

Instead, they were kind of in clumps, along the street.

ie. It seems like he went on a GTA:Vice City tactic and went through the streets attacking people.

Itachi's whole persona implies that he has limited evasion experience. I'm guessing he has always been surperior to his opponents to the point where evasion was a rare occassion for him.

[Spell]

Well if you see that flashbacks of when he killed the Uchiha clan, there wasn't just a huge pile of people on the floor like how we saw with Sasuke and those nameless nins.

Instead, they were kind of in clumps, along the street.
Bolded - the main difference between Uchiha and Sasuke's opponents

Itachi's whole persona implies that he has limited evasion experience. I'm guessing he has always been surperior to his opponents to the point where evasion was a rare occassion for him.
It's because he is too fast to be hit:)

[Sasori]

Bolded - the main difference between Uchiha and Sasuke's opponentsThe Uchiha were nameless too.

Apart from they were all "Uchihas", they were essentially cannon fodder.


It's because he is too fast to be hit:)Agreed, but there is more factors than speed in battles among high tiers.

This is what alot of people fail to understand, ie. "LOL Y DONT ITACHI SHUNPOU BEHIND X AND KUNAI HIM LOL IMA N00B"

[Kai]

It's because he is too fast to be hit:)

Because of his expertise at running away in the heat of battle? :amuse

[Spell]

The Uchiha were nameless too.

Apart from they were all "Uchihas", they were essentially cannon fodder.
Yes they were cannon fodder for Itachi, and that gives something to think.
Uchiha were told to be the greatest clan of all (no matter what Ando thinks about it xD).


Agreed, but there is more factors than speed in battles among high tiers.[quote]
Yes, of course. But to face the most powerfull shinobi has to be fast. All ninjas from highest tier were or are incredibly fast. Reaction time is really important when fighting them.

[quote]This is what alot of people fail to understand, ie. "LOL Y DONT ITACHI SHUNPOU BEHIND X AND KUNAI HIM LOL IMA N00B"
Yeah taht iritates me too:notrust

Because of his expertise at running away in the heat of battle? :amuse
And this is evading too:laugh

[Geg]

What I've said has probably been said before, but...

I don't see any possible way Itachi can win. His main weapons are his genjutsu and his MS. Both are useless against Sasori because he doesn't have a real brain or nervous system. While of course, everything Sasori has works against Itachi. No matter how fast Itachi supposedly is, one scratch and it's over.

[Naruto expectation]

I would give this to Itachi because...

Sasori has far too many weak points. For example he stores all of his human puppets in that scroll, if Itachi can destroy that he cant use performance of a hundred puppets. Itachi could also strike his chakra strings destroying any hopes of him using performance of a hundred puppets.

And if that doesn't work he could always aim for his heart.

Itachi is literally a genius I'm sure he would be able to find a way to strike one or more of the weak points I mentioned. He doesn't just rely on the Mangekyou Sharingan for everything. He knows Ametarsu, Exploding kage bunshin(which he could use to blow up Sasoris heart), and can use basic ninjitsu at a speed not even the sharingan eye can keep up with.(And this is just what we know so far of him. I'm sure he has more tricks up his sleeve)

Considering how smart he is, I think, he would be able to find a strategic method to eliminate Sasori.

[TWF]

I would give this to Itachi because...

Sasori has far too many weak points. For example he stores all of his human puppets in that scroll, if Itachi can destroy that he cant use performance of a hundred puppets. Itachi could also strike his chakra strings destroying any hopes of him using performance of a hundred puppets.

And if that doesn't work he could always aim for his heart.

Itachi is literally a genius I'm sure he would be able to find a way to strike one or more of the weak points I mentioned. He doesn't just rely on the Mangekyou Sharingan for everything. He knows Ametarsu, Exploding kage bunshin(which he could use to blow up Sasoris heart), and can use basic ninjitsu at a speed not even the sharingan eye can keep up with.

Considering how smart he is, I think, he would be able to find a strategic method to eliminate Sasori.

Considering both of them are most likely completely aware of how the other is quite dangerous, they'll probably pull out all the stops immediatly. Secondly, Itachi's famed genjutsu skills don't work on Sasori. Thirdly, one scratch is death for Itachi.

Also Sasori is one of the greatest geniuses and prodigies to come out of the Hidden Sand, he is just as powerful and skilled as Itachi. Saying that Itachi would be able to out-think him is invalid, as Sasori is just as capable of out-manuvering Itachi will all his puppets.

[Naruto expectation]

Considering both of them are most likely completely aware of how the other is quite dangerous, they'll probably pull out all the stops immediatly. Secondly, Itachi's famed genjutsu skills don't work on Sasori. Thirdly, one scratch is death for Itachi.

Also Sasori is one of the greatest geniuses and prodigies to come out of the Hidden Sand, he is just as powerful and skilled as Itachi. Saying that Itachi would be able to out-think him is invalid, as Sasori is just as capable of out-manuvering Itachi will all his puppets.

But in my post I never mentioned Itachi using any genjutsu on Sasori because I know it doesn't work.
I was mainly explaining all of Sasoris weak points and how Itachi could use ametarasu or something to destroy- or at least injure- Sasori so he can't use performance of a hundred puppets.

But...say he did. Itachi isn't limited to mangekyou sharingan he can use the regular sharingan. If Sasuke(Who had just gotten his sharingan) was able to predict and counter Hakus needles(which were probably going extremely fast), Itachi could find a way to counter all of those puppets.

Like for example the puppets attack an exploding kage bunshin and that destroys some of them. Then they think they see the real Itachi and its also another exploding kage bunshin, there go some more. Then from behind Itachi uses Ametarasu and incinerates half the puppets. Or he cuts the chakra strings attaching the puppets. He could even just go straight for Sasori. (Not including any basic ninjutsu Itachi could also use)

I think some people are underestimating the sharingan. The sharingan has great analytical power, and great clarity of perception, it can suggest thoughts to the opponent(Like what Kakashi did to Zabuza but I'm not sure if that would work on Sasori) and can almost-if not can-predict movements. (What Sasuke did to Naruto)

That doesn't include the dark secret of the sharingan we don't know.

I'm just saying that from what I can tell. Itachi would surely win this match.:sgan

[Sasori]

I would give this to Itachi because...

Sasori has far too many weak points. For example he stores all of his human puppets in that scroll, if Itachi can destroy that he cant use performance of a hundred puppets. Itachi could also strike his chakra strings destroying any hopes of him using performance of a hundred puppets.

And if that doesn't work he could always aim for his heart.

Itachi is literally a genius I'm sure he would be able to find a way to strike one or more of the weak points I mentioned. He doesn't just rely on the Mangekyou Sharingan for everything. He knows Ametarsu, Exploding kage bunshin(which he could use to blow up Sasoris heart), and can use basic ninjitsu at a speed not even the sharingan eye can keep up with.(And this is just what we know so far of him. I'm sure he has more tricks up his sleeve)

Considering how smart he is, I think, he would be able to find a strategic method to eliminate Sasori.Attention: At this post, the thread has begun to repeat itself.

[Naruto expectation]

The rest of the posts are just the same points going over again and again, without once trying to refute my valid points which put this battle in favour of Sasori.


That wasn't my point.

I agree that with Sharingan, he will be able to see the strings, but will he be able to predict the actions of the puppets?

He can read their movements perhaps, but can he successfully pre-empt the traps?


I couldn't find all of the points you are talking about, but is this one of them?

If so, yes, he can pre-empt the traps. It won't be easy but you have to understand the sharingan has great clarity of perception and analytical skills. The sharingan can pick up on little visual clues easily and can even predict movements of objects.

Its also worth noting that Itachi can create an exploding kage bunshin without Sasori noticing(If Kakashi couldn't catch Itachis hand signs with sharingan, Sasori definately can't) that combined with Itachis speed and it will look like Itachi hadn't done anything at all.:nuts (but that is pretty irrevelant)

Anyways

I didn't mean to say the same thing everyone else did I didn't read very much of the thread.:oh

[TWF]

I couldn't find all of the points you are talking about, but is this one of them?

If so, yes, he can pre-empt the traps. It won't be easy but you have to understand the sharingan has great clarity of perception and analytical skills.

The predication of movement yes, not the ability of insight on an enemy. Your confusing the Byakugan with the Sharingan.

The sharingan can pick up on little visual clues easily and can even predict movements of objects.

Yes this is true but the predication ability is also based on the ability to counter it, if the Sharingan user cannot not react properly, the predication ability is worthless.

Its also worth noting that Itachi can create an exploding kage bunshin without Sasori noticing(If Kakashi couldn't catch Itachis hand signs with sharingan, Sasori definately can't) that combined with Itachis speed and it will look like Itachi hadn't done anything at all.:nuts (but that is pretty irrevelant)



Sasori is on a high lever of strength and ability/skill then Kakashi has ever shown. Kakashi uses hand-seals and ninjutsu counters through his Sharingan but after his encounter with Itachi he had to improvise...why? Because Itachi's hand-seals are too fast for his eye.

Not so with Sasori, his path as a ninja revolves around feints and defensive measures that take advantage of any offensive blunderings. The one scratch one kill will still kill Itachi. As to the exploding Bunshins, Sasori can instantly move throughout his army of puppets and Itachi is not a chakra beast like Kisame or Naruto.

As Kakashi is due to his implemented Sharingan, Itachi's stamina and chakra capacity are limited. Sasori can wear him down with his traps and weapons of his puppets.

[zaiigoukyou]

I give it to Itachi. You think Sharigan is the only thing Itachi possess? You don't know how many high level Justsu Itachi acquired and what he's fully capable of. You don't think Itachi could figure out way to destroy Sasori's puppets. He's probably thee most tactical ninja in the series. Its true Genjutsu wouldn't work on them but there are so many ways to sever chakra strings.

[blash]

Everything that Itachi has or has shown so far, they are all useless against Sasori. I dont understand stand why these Itachi fans are still arguing about this.

[Refresh]

I like sasori way more then Itachi but in retrospect Itachi would destroy sasori because itachi is ranked higher and because he has perfected himself on 1 on 1s and while on the other hand sosori is a great adversary still is ment for backing up characters, sasori is the perfect teammate but wouldnt do to well by himself as we all see in the manga

hahh "fuck you sasori fan boys"hahhah

[Grrblt]

because itachi is ranked higher

:huh what? There are no ranks in Akatsuki that we know of.

[Mibu Clan]

Seems we won't agree on that matter :/
We are going circles so I suppose we should leave it until more info is revealed.Ok, let me put it another way...
Do you think Sasori could defeat those Ninjas Orochimaru gave him with the Kazekage puppet?

Because I think he CAN, and because I believe they are Kugutsu on the same power tier, and ImO Aka Higi is Sasori's strongest technique, then by default this Jutsu is even better suited to fight that multitude.


I think most underrated are Kurenai and Tsunade.

Kurenai was stated in the Databook to use Genjutsu on Itachi's level, though Itachi has the Sharingan which makes him vastly superior.

I do not state evasion = speed. Speed is a big help when shinobi wants to avoid an attack. Sakura's evasion is considerable because she is a medic nin, that's true. But her speed isn't comparable to Itachi's, and speed is a factor that facilitates evading. That's why if shinobi has great speed it is easier for him to avoid an attack.
I agree that speed is important to dodge, and ImO Itachi can definetly dodge some puppets... But this 100 were talking here.

BtW what's your opinion on Orochimaru's form? I liked it alot...:nuts

[Spell]

Ok, let me put it another way...
Do you think Sasori could defeat those Ninjas Orochimaru gave him with the Kazekage puppet?

Because I think he CAN, and because I believe they are Kugutsu on the same power tier, and ImO Aka Higi is Sasori's strongest technique, then by default this Jutsu is even better suited to fight that multitude.
Yes I believe Kazekage's puppet would be able to defeat them. However it's just an assumption, I do not know the abilities of those sound ninja.

IMO Sasori could kill them with the silver sand one after another. It would also protect him from their attacks. Judging from what we've seen I doubt they would be able to get through it.

Anyhow Sasori's army would be probably effective as well and evem maybe better.

Kurenai was stated in the Databook to use Genjutsu on Itachi's level, though Itachi has the Sharingan which makes him vastly superior.
Yeah, and many treat her as she would be a chuunin level shinobi.


I agree that speed is important to dodge, and ImO Itachi can definetly dodge some puppets... But this 100 were talking here.
As I stated before he doesn't have to dodge attacks of all 100. He just have to create an opportunity to aim for Sasori.

BtW what's your opinion on Orochimaru's form? I liked it alot...:nuts
Hm, I haven't think about it. Last chapter explains how Oro was able to "stick" together his body parts during fight with Naruto. It seems no blade is able to harm him seriously. That's pretty impressive. I'm curious how Sasuke will manage with it.

Ps. Who gave me a rep? I would like to rep back :)

[Espionage]

Ps. Who gave me a rep? I would like to rep back :)

um...I did! Now can you positive rep me Risu? :nod lol jk

[Spell]

um...I did! Now can you positive rep me Risu? :nod lol jkSure but you have to pass my test :P: What did you write in rep:nod ? lol jk xD

[Espionage]

It said Your points are well written :nod lol

[Sasori]

lol Risu, it's Iron Sand (Satetsu) not Silver Sand xD

But good debating tho :thumbs

[The_Chronic]

As I stated before he doesn't have to dodge attacks of all 100. He just have to create an opportunity to aim for Sasori.

you make a very valid point but unlike chiyo and sakura who had 12 people fighting which made it a little easier to find an opening. itachi is only one man, making it alot harder to do than chiyo and sakura. though i wont deny that he still has a chance of pulling it off. very slim chance.

[Hamaru]

Itachi would be way to fast for Sasori.

[AkumaShinobi]

Itachi, Itachi has his Mangekyou Sharingan as well as two of three secret jutsus to the Mangekyou Sharingan.

Sasori, only has his puppets but with unique posin and puppet transfer abilities. Also, he has the Third Kazekage puppet.

In the end I think Itachi would win because he has can copy and interpret Sasori's moves. Besides that Itachi has more abilities than Sasori like the Amaterasu, Exploding Shadow Clones and much more.

Sasori acts like a loser using puppets as a sheild and running away in puppet form. But Itachi can slow down movements with his Mengekyou Sharingan.

Itachi Win!

[Spell]

It said Your points are well written :nod lol
Wrong :nod
lol Risu, it's Iron Sand (Satetsu) not Silver Sand xD

But good debating tho :thumbs
0_o oh shit, sorry, don't know why but I confused facts somehow:sweatdrop
Thanks for the compliment, I must to rep you and Mibu. You are great interlocutors, debating with you is a good opportunity to improve my english :)
you make a very valid point but unlike chiyo and sakura who had 12 people fighting which made it a little easier to find an opening. itachi is only one man, making it alot harder to do than chiyo and sakura. though i wont deny that he still has a chance of pulling it off. very slim chance.
No my point is not valid. Please read and analyse my previous posts.
I'm not stating Itachi would do it for sure, I believe he would have same chances as Chiyo and Sakura.

Also you can't state Chiyo and Sakura were able to do it just because of their quantity. Consider that Itachi is able to use KB, and each of them would be probably much more powerfull than every single puppet of Chiyo.

[The_Chronic]

No my point is not valid. Please read and analyse my previous posts. I'm not stating Itachi would do it for sure, I believe he would have same chances as Chiyo and Sakura.

Also you can't state Chiyo and Sakura were able to do it just because of their quantity. Consider that Itachi is able to use KB, and each of them would be probably much more powerfull than every single puppet of Chiyo.

you tard do you even now what valid means? i really hope your in middle school or something.

when i said valid i meant you made a good point and that i agreed with it for the most part.

and i wasnt stating he couldnt do it. i just said it'd be harder.

[Sasori]

No need for the flames, he just misread the post that's all.

Now say sorry and enjoy your neg.

[Espionage]

you tard do you even now what valid means? i really hope your in middle school or something.

when i said valid i meant you made a good point and that i agreed with it for the most part.

and i wasnt stating he couldnt do it. i just said it'd be harder.

The negga comin your way :imslow

[The_Chronic]

if he did misread than im sorry. but if he doesnt know what valid means i cant do anything but flame. i mean he actually said his post wasnt valid how he misread i dont know but if thats the case like i said, im sorry.

Sasori and Daaku. the negging wasnt necessary but i guess i deserved it.:cry

[P-I-M-P]

Daaku. not saying your a racist or anything but your sig comes on a little strong. the white guy is owning the crap out of the black one. :notrust

LOL:laugh

[Sasori]

if he did misread than im sorry. but if he doesnt know what valid means i cant do anything but flame. i mean he actually said his post wasnt valid how he misread i dont know but if thats the case like i said, im sorry.

Sasori and Daaku. the negging wasnt necessary but i guess i deserved it.:cryHmm..it's good that your saying sorry, but you just have to realise that everyone makes mistakes.

If he misread or misunderstood something, just point it out, without the insults lol.

Anyways, carry on guys :amuse

[Mibu Clan]

Yes I believe Kazekage's puppet would be able to defeat them. However it's just an assumption, I do not know the abilities of those sound ninja.

IMO Sasori could kill them with the Iron sand one after another. It would also protect him from their attacks. Judging from what we've seen I doubt they would be able to get through it.

Anyhow Sasori's army would be probably effective as well and evem maybe better.
Agreed... Infact there's a possibility that Hiruko is all Sasori would need. To destroy it is already hard enough as it is.


Yeah, and many treat her as she would be a chuunin level shinobi.
Its especially impressive since at the beggining of the Series she was just recently made Jounin, and to have Genjutsu at that level is quite powerful.

As I stated before he doesn't have to dodge attacks of all 100. He just have to create an opportunity to aim for Sasori.
We agree here, like Sakura and Chiyo didnt need to defeat them all, but still creating that possibility is quite complicated...


Hm, I haven't think about it. Last chapter explains how Oro was able to "stick" together his body parts during fight with Naruto. It seems no blade is able to harm him seriously. That's pretty impressive. I'm curious how Sasuke will manage with it.
If you look at it carefully, Sasuke went and attacked Oro with just a little CS, once Orochimaru went Snake and attacked him he inmediatelky went CS2. So at that point it is already known that form is at least much faster and stronger than his Original Body. Once he sends those Snakes with Kusanagi swords and uses some Jutsu he'll be CS Orochimaru (With some sort of extreme weakness)

[Spell]

if he did misread than im sorry. but if he doesnt know what valid means i cant do anything but flame. i mean he actually said his post wasnt valid how he misread i dont know but if thats the case like i said, im sorry.

Oh sorry, I was just very tired:cry my weary mind merged the semantic of 'valid' and 'invalid', it happens sometimes to me after a day full of learning and work. As for explanation I have to admit I'm not a native speaker and I've got dislexia T_T

Agreed... Infact there's a possibility that Hiruko is all Sasori would need. To destroy it is already hard enough as it is.
IMO Hiruko wouldn't be enough, but maybe...



Its especially impressive since at the beggining of the Series she was just recently made Jounin, and to have Genjutsu at that level is quite powerful.
I would like to see her fight one more time, but maybe not against someone near Itachi's level.

We agree here, like Sakura and Chiyo didnt need to defeat them all, but still creating that possibility is quite complicated...Yeah, It would be very difficult, from what we've seen I can't state he would manage for sure.

If you look at it carefully, Sasuke went and attacked Oro with just a little CS, once Orochimaru went Snake and attacked him he inmediatelky went CS2. So at that point it is already known that form is at least much faster and stronger than his Original Body. Once he sends those Snakes with Kusanagi swords and uses some Jutsu he'll be CS Orochimaru (With some sort of extreme weakness)
I curious if Oro is able to reproduce those snakes, and if yes than is this ability restricted. It would be troublesome for Sasuke to face a constant-regenerating army of snakes.

[itachi21]

to think Sasori is leading this poll....:eek :eek

[durtycheese]

how the hell is sasori winning this poll.......?

[P-I-M-P]

how the hell is sasori winning this poll.......?


right now itachi doesnt have what it takes. he might later on ,but until then sasori has the better agruement.

[blash]

right now itachi doesnt have what it takes. he might later on ,but until then sasori has the better agruement.

agreed............................

[Pein]

itachi will slaughter puppet boy

[Law]

Sasori wins.
And I lol'd so hard at Sasori's "rebuttal" comment. Seriously...some joke tears popped out.

-HE

[Master Scorpion]

to think Sasori is leading this poll....:eek :eek

Look how many his tards??!

[kojak488]

What if Itachi used Amaterasu on Hiroku.. not saying Sasori would give him that chance but that seems like a viable way to win. Moreover, who is to say Sasori is immune to genjutsu? Genjutsu works by controlling the opponent's chakra (supposedly in the head, which could be the problem). Sasori does have chakra and can, somehow, speak, see, perceive events, and everything else like a normal body.

[eugenesum3]

i think it depends, if they are fighting in a small area with nowhere to run or hide sasori will probably win. sasori can use his third kazekage puppet which will uses the iron sand techniques, itachi will probably be fatally injured. in my believe i don't think that itachi is able to avoid all the iron sand technique attacks. Also itachi will have to deal with an disadvantage of not allowing sasori or his puppets to touch him or he will get poisoned. (unless itachi comes up with an antidote). Itachi could use his sharingan, but i doubt the sharingan will be able to do anything when a hundred puppet gang up on itachi.

[Na-]

Itachi wins for the simple reason of Mangekyo Sharingan. He's just too badass at using his sharingan to it's ultimate limits.

[Spell]

Genjutsu works by controlling the opponent's chakra (supposedly in the head, which could be the problem). Sasori does have chakra and can, somehow, speak, see, perceive events, and everything else like a normal body.
Genjutsu is controling chakra in brain. We don't know if Sasori has got a brain so we can't state genjutsu would work on him.

[kojak488]

Genjutsu is controling chakra in brain. We don't know if Sasori has got a brain so we can't state genjutsu would work on him.

I'm just entertaining the possibility. I mean Sasori does have chakra, obviously has vision, speech, and thought capabilities. His plug seems to be the equivalent of a brain, otherwise how does he perform such functions.

I do realize there is the "lifeless puppet" thing. But, based on Sasori's interaction and observations of the environment, he needs some sort of central nervous type of system. I'd think of it such as that his plug flows his chakra through the puppet. This gives it all of those abilities without a brain, but does have a centralized location. I believe that centralized location, where all this processing is done, is what Itachi effects and that it isn't as accurate to say or think just the brain. Instead, what if it's that he's controlling the chakra flow through the wherever the processing is done, which just happens to be the brain in shinobi.

Essentially it comes down to using chakra. Genjutsu manipulates the opponent chakra. The only sure way to avoid genjutsu, then, is to not have chakra. Nothing, not even in the Narutoverse from what we've seen, can not have a brain of some sort.

Before Suzu or Yagura come in yelling about scans read one of the earlier lines about entertaining the possibility. Cause I'm not saying this would work, but just see the possibility and want to see the arguments against such.

[Spell]

Hm you brought very interesting thought.

Essentially it comes down to using chakra. Genjutsu manipulates the opponent chakra. The only sure way to avoid genjutsu, then, is to not have chakra. Nothing, not even in the Narutoverse from what we've seen, can not have a brain of some sort.
But the problem is we don't know how the seal work. Probably it contains some image of mind and surely consciousness, but we still don't know if genjutsu can manipulate chakra in it. However it's possible it could be affected by genjutsu.

[SuperSaiyan4]

um, Itachi's exploding kage bunshins = KO for sasori

[Grimmjowsensei]

Itachi wins only because he is 100x times cooler than that freak show, besides he is more talented in any area of skill(ninjitsu genjutsu taijutsu). I can tolerate sasuke or itachi fanboyism to some extend but sasori fanboyism? get out of here sasori lost to that old woman and sakura... Sakura ! ! sakurra ! ! Sakuuraa !! (and it keeps echoing forever)

[Grrblt]

Itachi wins only because he is 100x times cooler than that freak show, besides he is more talented in any area of skill(ninjitsu genjutsu taijutsu). I can tolerate sasuke or itachi fanboyism to some extend but sasori fanboyism? get out of here sasori lost to that old woman and sakura... Sakura ! ! sakurra ! ! Sakuuraa !! (and it keeps echoing forever)

Sasuke is the only person to have lost to Rock Lee. Itachi ran from Gai. Sasori let a sannin equivalent get a hit on him.

[Rock of Ages]

Itachi wins because he is faster, and smarter. Also, he has enough destructive jutsus to finish the job, and enough caution to not get killed while doing so.

1) Faster. Itachi is fast enough to own Kakashi in taijutsu, even at 30%. Both times they've fought, Kakashi was overwhelmed, even just by taijutsu. In the second bell test, Sakura couldn't lay a finger on Kakashi. Sakura's speed is sufficient to run rings around Sasori and his puppets. (Yes, she was being manipulated by Chiyo, but this wouldn't affect her speed, just her dodging capability and sense.) Speed: Itachi >>> Sasori

2) It's absurd to think that Itachi would see the chakra strings, and where they were coming from, and then decide to deal with all 100 puppets. Obviously, he would go for the source of the strings, and destroy it with a destructive jutsu (or just a kunai, since Sasori just needs to be stabbed in the 'heart'). If Sasori couldn't dodge Sakura tossing something, how is he going to dodge Itachi, who is order of magnitude faster? Even if he manages to transfer, Itachi will instantly find him with the Sharingan, likely taking him down on the second try.

3) Poisons are probably a common ninja tactic, especially among puppeteers. Itachi's signature trait is caution. If he didn't already know Sasori was a poison user, he would find out through bunshins.

4) It's worth pointing out that logic dictates that Itachi should be able to use genjutsu on Sasori. Yes, genjutsu works by controlling chakra to "the brain". Sasori might not have a normal brain, but he clearly has some sort of "chakra" brain. Otherwise, how would he see, coordinate his activites, exist, etc. The argument that Itachi can't use genjutsu because Sasori doesn't have a normal brain is like saying he can't use amaterasu because Sasori doesn't have a normal body. It's still a body, and it can be hurt the same. And since Itachi can see Sasori's "heart" and his "chakra nervous system," he'll have no problem using his genjutsu properly.

I could just go on and on. I, also, think Itachi would have the biggest problem with the Kazekage puppet. However, what's stopping Itachi from just dodging it, running to Sasori's heart, and stabbing it? He's more than fast enough.

PS:
Sasuke is the only person to have lost to Rock Lee. Itachi ran from Gai. Sasori let a sannin equivalent get a hit on him. Sasori letting Sakura get a punch in on him is reason to think he'd win? Wowza.

[warning5048]

itachi because as the fight goes on his Sharingan will get better i wonder how much stronger the Sharingan would be if Itachi was pushed to fight hard...his got a few tricks up his sleave...sasori has aready been pushed and got killed....

[Grrblt]

Sasori letting Sakura get a punch in on him is reason to think he'd win? Wowza.

Sasori never let Sakura punch him. She managed to do it once though, but it was highly ineffective.

[louipwns]

sigh....itachi wins sasori was killed by a girl and an old woman andboth of them together don't compare to itachi

[Pinkaugust]

A million dolls wouldn't help Sasori against Itachi.

[TWF]

A million dolls wouldn't help Sasori against Itachi.

So Itachi wouldn't be effected at all by two hundred puppets? Or the fact that the blades and weapons they use are poisoned? Or the Sandaime Kazekage's Iron Sand attack?

I highly doubt that.

[Sasori]

itachi because as the fight goes on his Sharingan will get better.........WHAT????
i wonder how much stronger the Sharingan would be if Itachi was pushed to fight hard...his got a few tricks up his sleave...sasori has aready been pushed and got killed....Sasori was never pushed. Read the fight again, he was on top the whole way through.

[TWF]

I don't understand. How will Itachi's Sharingan get better during a fight? He has already mastered the Sharingan and attainted the Mangekyou Sharingan. It won't improve any more.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Sasuke is the only person to have lost to Rock Lee. Itachi ran from Gai. Sasori let a sannin equivalent get a hit on him.

itachi ran from Gai? whats the deal ? So that means gai can pwn sasori too. though i couldn't find a relation between sasuke and the topic.

[Rock of Ages]

Sasori was never pushed. Read the fight again, he was on top the whole way through.Yes, when an old woman using a single puppet broke his crowning achievement, Hiruko, to smithereens, Sasori was on top.

When his Kazekage doll was smashed in much the same fashion, he was far from being pushed.

Certainly he fully intended for his Scorpion hook to be turned back on him by a budding kunoichi; all part of the plan. He was completely on top.

And of course, he was no pushover when something that couldn't have been thrown any faster than a kunai shut down his vaunted 100 puppet army. He wasn't being pushed.

He might have been able to score the killing blow if not for deus ex machina, but even still, to say he wasn't pushed in that battle is just ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that you think Itachi would stand still and let Sasori serially use his techniques on him. Sharingan can see chakra strings, and its eye of insight confers awesome dodging abilities.

Despite all the hype about solving a puppeteer's problems, if Sasori confronted Itachi in Hiruko, he would get flambeed alive. If he confronted any other form, he could easily create a diversion with a jutsu (exploding bunshin or what have you) and then stab Sasori's heart through. If Chiyo and Sakura are fast enough to do it and create a diversion, Itachi is.

Sasori is winning? GTFO.





PS: I realize that you might be a troll, or some sort of post-modern Sasori impersonator, or, indeed, a schizophrenic who thinks he is Sasori, or none, all, or some of the above.

[Zeche]

Yes, when an old woman using a single puppet broke his crowning achievement, Hiruko, to smithereens, Sasori was on top.
Funny I never saw anyone bitching about Sandaime being an old man. Anyways first, Sandaime is his crowning achievement. Second, having Hiroku destroyed for Sasori was like Naruto having one of his shadow clones destroyed. Sasori has plenty more and much stronger ones. Finally, Sasori could have simply rebuilt Hiroku in a matter of minutes after the battle.

When his Kazekage doll was smashed in much the same fashion, he was far from being pushed.
This had a bit more impact but nonetheless, Sasori was much more powerful than Chiyo and Sakura and he could rebuild Sandaime.

Certainly he fully intended for his Scorpion hook to be turned back on him by a budding kunoichi; all part of the plan. He was completely on top.
I actually don't remember that part of the fight. And yes he was on top during the whole fight.
And of course, he was no pushover when something that couldn't have been thrown any faster than a kunai shut down his vaunted 100 puppet army. He wasn't being pushed.
I agree.
He might have been able to score the killing blow if not for deus ex machina, but even still, to say he wasn't pushed in that battle is just ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that you think Itachi would stand still and let Sasori serially use his techniques on him. Sharingan can see chakra strings, and its eye of insight confers awesome dodging abilities
It's rediculous that you think Sasori would just sit there and let Itachi use techniques on Sasori. Sasori doesn't need Itachi to wait for him. Sasori has hundreds of puppets to stall Itachi which buys him time. Sharingan didn't provide excellent dodging skills against Rock Lee, Gaara, or even preskip Naruto clones which gets wtfpwnd by everyone except Mizuki, a paralyzed Gaara, and a Sharingan user with "awesome dodging abilities".
Despite all the hype about solving a puppeteer's problems, if Sasori confronted Itachi in Hiruko, he would get flambeed alive.
"It's also ridiculous that you think Itachi would stand still and let Sasori serially use his techniques on him". Hypocritical much? At least Sasori has puppets to stall for him.
If he confronted any other form, he could easily create a diversion with a jutsu (exploding bunshin or what have you) and then stab Sasori's heart through. If Chiyo and Sakura are fast enough to do it and create a diversion, Itachi is.Right... Obviously, Sasori would charge head on by himself into a diversion created right on front of him instead of sending one of his hundreds of puppets to handle it. Sakura and Chiyo had antidotes. They could have just charged in through the fog of poisonous gas like idiots and fought Sasori(If Sasori wasn't leagues stronger than them). Itachi would die immediately from poison.
Sasori is winning? GTFO.
FO SHEEZLE.

[Crimson2Phoenix7]

HOLY FUCKING SHYZZLE AT THE FUCKTARTS WHO THINK SASORI CAN BEAT ITACHI, LMFAO.

God, that is fanboyism at its fullest.
nothing more to comment about but this thread is ridiculous and fails at so many levels. Itachi>Sasori any time, any day.

edit: the only reason sasori is winning in the poll, so far, is because of ...
1. sasori fanboys/girls
2. gb idiots
3. itachi haters (a.k.a jiraya/oro/yondaime lovers)

[Uchiha Arlent]

i believe itachi would win becuase , since his clan is known for fire he can easily make chop sticks out of those puppets and he is duodtly extermely fast soo yea ITACHI.

[Sasori]

Yes, when an old woman using a single puppet broke his crowning achievement, Hiruko, to smithereens, Sasori was on top.

When his Kazekage doll was smashed in much the same fashion, he was far from being pushed.

Certainly he fully intended for his Scorpion hook to be turned back on him by a budding kunoichi; all part of the plan. He was completely on top.

And of course, he was no pushover when something that couldn't have been thrown any faster than a kunai shut down his vaunted 100 puppet army. He wasn't being pushed.

He might have been able to score the killing blow if not for deus ex machina, but even still, to say he wasn't pushed in that battle is just ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that you think Itachi would stand still and let Sasori serially use his techniques on him. Sharingan can see chakra strings, and its eye of insight confers awesome dodging abilities.

Despite all the hype about solving a puppeteer's problems, if Sasori confronted Itachi in Hiruko, he would get flambeed alive. If he confronted any other form, he could easily create a diversion with a jutsu (exploding bunshin or what have you) and then stab Sasori's heart through. If Chiyo and Sakura are fast enough to do it and create a diversion, Itachi is.

Sasori is winning? GTFO.





PS: I realize that you might be a troll, or some sort of post-modern Sasori impersonator, or, indeed, a schizophrenic who thinks he is Sasori, or none, all, or some of the above.thats great

[Rock of Ages]

thats great

Funny I never saw anyone bitching about Sandaime being an old man.

Except Enma, Orochimaru, and Sarutobi himself, of course, but what do they know :laugh Old age degrades physical strength, even for ninjas in this series.


Anyways first, Sandaime is his crowning achievement.

Okay, fine, it got smacked even easier, by essentially the same method, so what's your point? Itachi >> Sakura + Chiyo in taijutsu, especially when it comes to avoiding entities controlled by chakra strings, which the sharingan can see. Sakura and Chiyo only got hit three times overall, if I remember correctly. Itachi not geting hit at all isn't hard to believe. The only time Sharingan has a trouble with taijutsu is when there's a speed differential, but Itachi is much, much faster than Sasori, as we've established.


Second, having Hiroku destroyed for Sasori was like Naruto having one of his shadow clones destroyed. Sasori has plenty more and much stronger ones.

Wrong. Hiruko was hyped up for a reason: he's Sasori's ultimate defense. The Hiruko form also lends him his name, most likely. You think his namesake is just some random hunk-o-junk?

Normally, since it's metal, it would provide insulation against all sorts of jutsus, but a katon of amaterasu level would melt it down, and destroy Saso's heart with it.

If he used his 100 puppets and one cyborg, Itachi would simply triangulate where his heart is with sharingan, speed-blitz, and kunai stab the heart.

C'mon, let's turn back this age of glibness and irony, mysticism and fanboyishness. People of NF, won't you vote with the forces of Sanity? If old Chiyo + Sakura only take three hits, how many would Itachi take?

[Sasori]

Evasion isn't just based on speed.

The purpose of the traps in the puppets is it's unpredictability.

The technique of hidden traps etc is what will get Itachi scratched. No one said anything about how fast the puppets are moving/attacking etc..

For example, how would he react if he destroys a puppet with a kick only for the body to shoot out poisonous spikes?

[Feral]

God, that is fanboyism at its fullest.


I find this ironic, looking at your signature.

You seem to be an Itachi fanboy.

---------------------------------------------

Lastly, to whoever said the Sharingan can see chakra strings.. is there any proof of this? I'd really like to see it, since I haven't really seen the Sharingan give any chakra viewing abilities, that seems more like a Byakugan type thing.

[Sasori]

^ Sharingan has a limited ability to see chakra activity inside someone's body. Obito used his Sharingan to inspect Rin's chakra.

But read the first few pages of this thread. It outlines how Itachi's Sharingan wouldn't be effective in this fight.

[Rock of Ages]

If Kankuro can avoid Sasori's traps of that sort, then Itachi can. Itachi has no need to go about kicking puppets of Sasori's, all he has to do is stab Sasori, and that task is all about speed.

Feral: And yes, Sharingan can see chakra strings. Maybe not clearly, but remember, Kakashi can see the chakra circulatory system, just not well enough to close the tenkestu. Presumably, Itachi's sense for seeing chakra strings is even better. And he doesn't have to see them very well to track them to their source. Even if it's just a vague shimmer, if he can track Sasori down, it's grillin' time.

Also, sharingan seems to provide a general super-high visual-spatial IQ when it comes to battle. The only limitation on this is when the requirements for battle exceed one's physical limits, but that's not the case here, because Itachi is a) fast enough to get to Sasori's heart, and b) smart enough to avoid any traps on the way. So, no problem.

I think hyping up Sasori's poison is ignoring the way strength is portioned out in the manga. It's a selective application of real-world logic in a realm where fantasy logic is appropriate, and Naruto logic dictates that, if Sakura + Chiyo were only hit three or four times in total, Itachi should be able to avoid all injury. Equivalently, a field of arrows with exploding tags on them or kunai launched or thrown by no-name characters have no chance of doing any damage, no matter how threatening they seem.

Please don't bring up the puppets again, unless you can cogently explain why Itachi wouldn't be able to track Sasori down from chakra strings.

[Zeche]

If Kankuro can avoid Sasori's traps of that sort, then Itachi can.
Say what? Filler? Anyways Kankuro has experiance with puppets unlike Itachi so he has a much better chance of dodging them.
Itachi has no need to go about kicking puppets of Sasori's, all he has to do is stab Sasori, and that task is all about speed.
I'm sure all of Sasori's puppets will just stand there as Itachi stabs Sasori. Can Sharingan even see Sasori's heart? It doesn't have the same properties as Byakugan.


Feral: And yes, Sharingan can see chakra strings. Maybe not clearly, but remember, Kakashi can see the chakra circulatory system, just not well enough to close the tenkestu.Presumably, Itachi's sense for seeing chakra strings is even better. And he doesn't have to see them very well to track them to their source. Even if it's just a vague shimmer, if he can track Sasori down, it's grillin' time.
Lol blind Itachi anyone? I'm sure all those puppets will just stand there and watch Itachi carefully track down Sasori.

Also, sharingan seems to provide a general super-high visual-spatial IQ when it comes to battle.
Well Sasori seems to be able to beat the shit out of Itachi rather easily.
The only limitation on this is when the requirements for battle exceed one's physical limits, but that's not the case here, because Itachi is a) fast enough to get to Sasori's heart
While Sasori's puppets play poker or something? Sharingan doesn't have x-ray like Byakugan.
smart enough to avoid any traps on the way. So, no problem
Assumption. Chiyo only knew becuas she had experiance with puppets.

I think hyping up Sasori's poison is ignoring the way strength is portioned out in the manga. It's a selective application of real-world logic in a realm where fantasy logic is appropriate, and Naruto logic dictates that, if Sakura + Chiyo were only hit three or four times in total, Itachi should be able to avoid all injury.
Lol WTF????? Chiyo had unrivaled experiance with puppets and Itachi couldn't even dodge Kakashi charging straight at him.
Equivalently, a field of arrows with exploding tags on them or kunai launched or thrown by no-name characters have no chance of doing any damage, no matter how threatening they seem.
What does that have to do witht his fight?

Please don't bring up the puppets again, unless you can cogently explain why Itachi wouldn't be able to track Sasori down from chakra strings.
Because while Itachi is carefully examing the chakra stings(even with his blindness) the puppets will be mauling the shit out of him. Besides, telling us not to bring up Sasori's puppets is like us telling you not to bring up Itachi's Sharingan, Chakra, Jutsu's, and speed.

[Rock of Ages]

OF course Itachi can see Sasori's heart. Sharingan can see the chakra circulatory system, and the chakra "heart" is the center of that. It's like he's a big fat ugly gaping target. Itachi can outrun the puppets and eye-fuck Sasori's big heartarget. And I don't think sharingan-sight is related to regular-sight, so all Itachi has to do is put something through that target, and he takes his condign win.

Sasori is slower than / on par with Sakura being controlled by an old woman. By the way since there must be some delay in transmission, this is slower than just Chiyo.

If you think Itachi's eyesight is bad, think of how bad someone who's just a chakra plug's sensory perceptions must have gotten. (Oh, and if you think they're good, due to some sort of chakra effect, then tsukioymi would take care of that.)

Itachi's speed, sense, jutsus, and superior plotkai / jobber aura put him miles beyond.

[TWF]

OF course Itachi can see Sasori's heart. Sharingan can see the chakra circulatory system, and the chakra "heart" is the center of that. It's like he's a big fat ugly gaping target. Itachi can outrun the puppets and eye-fuck Sasori's big heartarget. And I don't think sharingan-sight is related to regular-sight, so all Itachi has to do is put something through that target, and he takes his condign win.

Considering Kakashi's Sharingan couldn't see through Zabuza's Kirigakure no Jutsu, how can Itachi's see Sasori's? And even if he could, you do know that Sasori can instantly teleport from one puppet to another, right?

Sasori is slower than / on par with Sakura being controlled by an old woman. By the way since there must be some delay in transmission, this is slower than just Chiyo.

What? :huh

If you think Itachi's eyesight is bad, think of how bad someone who's just a chakra plug's sensory perceptions must have gotten. (Oh, and if you think they're good, due to some sort of chakra effect, then tsukioymi would take care of that.)

Genjutsu wouldn't work on him, as Sasori doesn't have a brain to recieve the chakra to activate the genjutsu.

Itachi's speed, sense, jutsus, and superior plotkai / jobber aura put him miles beyond.

When has Itachi shown superior speed to Gai or Kisame? He as on par with Kakashi, from what we've seen. Jutsus? Not really. Sasori is a poison master and puppet user, Itachi isn't. Their not comparable. Wtf is a jobber aura?

[kojak488]

I'm standing by my stance that Itachi can Tsukuyomi Sasori. Tsukuyomi, a doujutsu, seems to work the same way that genjutsus do. That is, they control the chakra--in the "brain"--of the opponent. Anyone who fights is going to have chakra and be susceptible to having that chakra controlled. It just happens that genjutsu controls the "brain" chakra because that is where all the senses, eyesight, hearing, etc. all go.

With all that said it is obvious that Sasori has something akin to a brain. He can see. He can speak. He can hear. If he can control chakra strings, then he can feel. All of this gets processed somewhere, likely his chakra plug. Regardless of where that place is, it can be controlled.

Ergo: Sasori's chakra can be manipulated by Itachi. Itachi can Tsukuyomi Sasori.

Itachi wins.

[Zeche]

I'm standing by my stance that Itachi can Tsukuyomi Sasori. Tsukuyomi, a doujutsu, seems to work the same way that genjutsus do. That is, they control the chakra--in the "brain"--of the opponent. Anyone who fights is going to have chakra and be susceptible to having that chakra controlled. It just happens that genjutsu controls the "brain" chakra because that is where all the senses, eyesight, hearing, etc. all go.
Would Tsukuyomi even affect Sasori all that much? This dude gets smashed to pieces and stabbed by swords but his facial expressions don't show any signs of pain at all.

[kojak488]

His body doesn't feel pain, but all that information about speech, eyesight, chakra string on fingers, etc. has to get processed somewhere. Where it gets processed is where Tsukuyomi attacks. His puppet body just doesn't have nerves or anything to feel the pain.

C'mon now it isn't a complicated thing to understand. Sasori interacted with the environment. All the information, both ingoing and outgoing, has to be processed somewhere.

[TWF]

His body doesn't feel pain, but all that information about speech, eyesight, chakra string on fingers, etc. has to get processed somewhere. Where it gets processed is where Tsukuyomi attacks. His puppet body just doesn't have nerves or anything to feel the pain.

C'mon now it isn't a complicated thing to understand. Sasori interacted with the environment. All the information, both ingoing and outgoing, has to be processed somewhere.

Proove to me from where it states in the manga that genjutsu works on someone without a brain.

[kojak488]

Common sense? It affects the brain because that where all the perceptual information is processed. It's simply referred to as brain for simplicity.

It doesn't make sense for the mangaka to say genjutsu, which distorts a person's sense of reality, targets the heart. Why? Because the heart has nothing to do with processing the interaction with the outside world whereas the brain does. So he says it targets the brain.

Sasori has to have something akin to a brain. Besides all of his interactions with the environment he has shown a capacity for thought. Itachi's Tsukuyomi will target this.

If you don't understand human psychology or simple physiology I can't help you. It's not a hard concept to understand.

[Edit] Also take this into perspective if you're still being dense, he can't genjutsu a dead person. They obviously have a brain. So why can't he? Because there is no processing going on in the brain to control. See the light yet?

[Zeche]

I'm not saying Sasori can't feel pain but some people just don't respond to pain that much. Like how Kimi was pushing his body to fight even they he has been dieing in his bed for months and his body was getting destroyed inside out. Neither of them showed signs of pain during their fights maybey they were just trained to shut out pain.

[kojak488]

What does responding to pain have to do with Tsukuyomi? It's a psychological attack. Kakashi's body wasn't in that world for 72 hours suffering attacks, it was his mind. In that world Itachi could stab Sasori's chakra plug for 72 hours and I'd bet you that would affect him. At the very least he'd think he is in pain and, as you said, one has will over pain. You can use will to lessen it and also amplify it (think Matrix style for all of Tsukuyomi's affects.. it's a good analogy for the attack).

[TWF]

Common sense? It affects the brain because that where all the perceptual information is processed. It's simply referred to as brain for simplicity.

This is a manga, since when does it have to follow common sense?

It doesn't make sense for the mangaka to say genjutsu, which distorts a person's sense of reality, targets the heart. Why? Because the heart has nothing to do with processing the interaction with the outside world whereas the brain does. So he says it targets the brain.

Duh, we already know that.

Sasori has to have something akin to a brain. Besides all of his interactions with the environment he has shown a capacity for thought. Itachi's Tsukuyomi will target this.

Yet Sasori doesn't call it his brain if it was, he says it was his core. Until you can provide proof that he does, and he doesn't, your wrong.

If you don't understand human psychology or simple physiology I can't help you. It's not a hard concept to understand.

Sasori isn't human, he is a living puppet, not a normal person anymore.

[Edit] Also take this into perspective if you're still being dense, he can't genjutsu a dead person. They obviously have a brain. So why can't he? Because there is no processing going on in the brain to control. See the light yet?

Congradulations on being an ass. Sasori has never stated to have a brain, or that his core was like a brain. Just a remnant of his original body so that he can use his chakra.

Sasori's core isn't a brain, genjutsu won't effect him, regardless of what you think or believe.

[natwel]

Sasori was really tough, and he's immortal if you don't know where to hit him. Despite that i'll still say itachi.

[Zeche]

What does responding to pain have to do with Tsukuyomi?

Well that's it then basically. If Sasori doesn't even respond to the pain then Itachi is basically just killing his eyesight for nothing.

[kojak488]

Sasori wasn't a living puppet... he was imperfect. Look, if you can't understand the simple fact that a brain is a central processing part of the body then I can't help you. Kishimoto doesn't have room to write "brain, also called the central processor of the body" into the manga. Such things are to be obvious.

I didn't say Sasori's plug was a brain. I said it's his central processor. A brain is the phsyical matter where central processing takes place. To use chakra and interact with environment requires a place for all of this to occur. It occurs in his plug. He can be affected by genjutsu.

It all boils down to genjutsu controlling the opponent's chakra to the point that it makes the opponent believe what the controller wants. How do you accomplish this? You alter what they think they're seeing. You alter what theyt hink they're hearing. You alter what they think they're feeling. All of these things require processing. For a living organisim that interacts with the environment there will be somewhere all of that information if processed. For most shinobi it's Kishimoto's "brain." For Sasori it's his plug.

The brain is a central processing for external information.

Sasori's plug is a central processing for external information.

Central processing is where genjutsu alters information.

Sasori is able to be placed under genjuts.

Seriously, it's not fucking complicated. Genjutsu isn't going after the physical matter of the brain. It's attacking the information passing through. This information passes through Sasori, likely in his plug. Itachi can target that information.

If you still don't understand the concept then I suggest you go take Biology 101 or maybe 5th grade science. It should help!

Zeche, don't take that line out of context. Go reread all I wrote to understand it.

And White Fang if you choose to respond to this then I want to hear your explanation on how Sasori interacts with the outside world without processing all the information in his core. If he processes it in his core, which he has to, it makes him susceptible to genjutsu.

[TWF]

Your an idiot. All that was said about his core was that it was the remaining link to his original body and was used for chakra, nothing more about it. If you can't understand that Naruto doesn't involved real science or that sort of thing, then your the fool.

[kojak488]

I'm an idiot? I'm a fool? For rationalizing using the obvious? I don't think so. By the way, you've yet to explain to me how Sasori interacts with the outside world without processing all of the information to do so.

And if you're going to get into semantics about "Sasori didn't call it his brain he called it his core" then why didn't Sasori say "and I'm immune to genjutsu?" Probably because there isn't room to explain every last little detail about miniscule things?

Look, I rationalized a reasonable explanation for why Sasori isn't immune to genjutsu. It only takes a simple understanding of the purpose that a brain has to understand. If you want to try arguing things without rationalization then I believe that makes you the fool, not I.

As it stands there's no reason for me to see why he would be immune to genjutsu. Sasori has everything that a brain is except the physical matter, which isn't what genjutsu targets so not having that matter is pointless anyway.

Let me know how that 5th grade science goes, okay? By the way I believe it's "you're." I'm not possessive of an idiot last time i checked! Wel, unless I'm possessive of you. :leepose

[Rock of Ages]

kojak you are completely correct about genjutsu. Without somewhere to process information, there would be no Sasori! That place is called a brain; apparently, it's comprised of chakra, and that's what genjutsu such as Itachi's manipulate.

Of course real science doesn't apply in Naruto, since we believe in this magical material, chakra. However, basic logic still exists within the confines of Naruto. If it didn't, why would you bother arguing at all? You obviously believe Naruto has an internal logic, since you're arguing, and according to this internal logic, a sensing sentient creature composed of chakra should be subject to sharingan dojutsu.

[The Truth]

I don't think the point kojak488 poses is that far fetched. Sasori may not have a brain specifically, because it wasn't stated and he certainly didn't have any organs. However, he did have the ability to interact with the enviroment. He could see, hear and obviously think. So while I assume he'd may be less susceptible to genjustu then most, I won't be bold enough to claim that he is immune to an entire branch of ninjutsu.

[Rock of Ages]

It's retardedly literal to think that genjutsu can't affect Sasori because he doesn't have a "brain," when he has a sensory processing unit made up of chakra. It's Asperger's / Autism spectrum, even. White Fang, do you like standing on your tip-toes?

[kojak488]

Sasori v.s. Itachi 03-31-2007 09:01 PM Don't flamebait me, fag.//TWF.

Hahahaha White Fang neg repped me for my comment about the dead body.

White Fang, your negative rep doesn't affect me in the least. Can you guess why? I have more positive rep than you can imagine from, OH MY GOD, making LOGICAL, REASONED, THOROUGH suggestions that people understand.

Oh, I'm sorry, people who didn't fail 5th grade science. ;)

:leepose

Thanks Rock and Truth for not failing that class! Pos rep for you two and time to take the higher road and pos rep White Fang, he obviously needs it!

[Teren_Kanan]

There's not an entirely large amount of information to use in this debate, so most arguments in favor of either character are VERY largely based on opinion.

Below is my opinion. I base my opinion mainly on relating the characters being discussed with similar characters and storylines from countless other books/anime/manga's I've read/watched, as there is not much information to pull directly from the Manga, especially in regards to Itachi's power/fighting style.


I'm going to go with Itachi on this one. Though I certainly think Sasori to be near or around the same level as Itachi (Very high level, Orochimaru/Jiraiya level).

And it appears that the poll results indicate Sasori/Itachi being on a similar level =p

[Sasori]

kojak you are completely correct about genjutsu. Without somewhere to process information, there would be no Sasori! That place is called a brain; apparently, it's comprised of chakra, and that's what genjutsu such as Itachi's manipulate.

Of course real science doesn't apply in Naruto, since we believe in this magical material, chakra. However, basic logic still exists within the confines of Naruto. If it didn't, why would you bother arguing at all? You obviously believe Naruto has an internal logic, since you're arguing, and according to this internal logic, a sensing sentient creature composed of chakra should be subject to sharingan dojutsu.This post fails.

If we are going to argue and use "basic logic" then please tell me using real life biology how Sasori can speak without having any lungs?

We can argue over such things but the fact is that unless addressed by the mangaka himself, none of us will ever come to a real conclusion.

Neither argument has much weight on the truth, and for you to use "basic logic" to conclude that he would be susceptible to genjutsu is as valid as me using my "basic logic" to argue that he isn't.

This cannot be resolved so don't try to justify either way and believe that you are right while others are not.

Personally, I argue that he does not have susceptibility to genjutsu, but at the end of the day, it is speculation.

[Grrblt]

It's retardedly literal to think that genjutsu can't affect Sasori because he doesn't have a "brain," when he has a sensory processing unit made up of chakra. It's Asperger's / Autism spectrum, even. White Fang, do you like standing on your tip-toes?

Genjutsu are created to attack brains, they are not created to attack sensory processing unit made up of chakra. Even if it's possible to use a genjutsu on Sasori's sensory processing unit, Itachi most likely does not possess such a genjutsu because he never attacked a person without a brain before.

It's the same principle as saying "it's literally retarded to think a computer virus can't affect Itachi because he doesn't have a central processing unit, when he has a brain processing electrical information". A computer virus isn't designed to attack brains and genjutsu aren't designed to attack sensory processing units. It's foolish to think Sasori's brain substitute is susceptible to genjutsu just because it uses chakra like a real brain, because both brains and CPUs use electric impulses to communicate and computer virii still can't do shit to brains.

[Fullback 41]

Sasori would win because Itachi's best weapon the Mangekyou Sharingan takes up so much chakra and Sasori's puppets aren't effected by Genjutsu it would come down to a straight Nin and Taijutsu battle which Sasori has the advantage since he can out number his foe and as his own built in weapons

[Sasori]

Sasori has to have something akin to a brain.Sorry but why does he "has" to have anything?

All he "has" to have is what Kishi-fucking-moto gives him.

[kojak488]

Sorry but why does he "has" to have anything?

All he "has" to have is what Kishi-fucking-moto gives him.

Christ now you're resorting to targeting me? Get over it. Last time I checked Kishimoto didn't give him an immunity to genjutsu either. I've been done arguing in this thread since people don't comprehend 5th grade science.. so stop asking me to explain things because of your incompetence.

It's as simple as nothing, not even the Narutoverse, can interact with the outside world without processing the information going in and out. That is why Sasori has to have whatever it was you quoted me saying.

Otherwise, it'd be a lump of chakra that doesn't move, can't fight, and just exists. Last time I checked Sasori was a bit more than that. Thus, what Kishi-fucking-gave-him was that ability to process the information. I just interpreted the proper way that genjutsu would work.. if you can't accept it then argue that. Don't make it so I have to keep explaining the concept.

[Sasori]

Christ now you're resorting to targeting me? Get over it. Last time I checked Kishimoto didn't give him an immunity to genjutsu either. I've been done arguing in this thread since people don't comprehend 5th grade science.. so stop asking me to explain things because of your incompetence.

It's as simple as nothing, not even the Narutoverse, can interact with the outside world without processing the information going in and out. That is why Sasori has to have whatever it was you quoted me saying.

Otherwise, it'd be a lump of chakra that doesn't move, can't fight, and just exists. Last time I checked Sasori was a bit more than that. Thus, what Kishi-fucking-gave-him was that ability to process the information. I just interpreted the proper way that genjutsu would work.. if you can't accept it then argue that. Don't make it so I have to keep explaining the concept.I don't think I was targetting you in anyway...in fact, I didn't even know who I quoted until your reply.

Anyways, you are making logical fallacies. Read Grrblt's post to understand what some of them are.

[Rock of Ages]

I'll take it from here.

Genjutsu are created to attack brains, they are not created to attack sensory processing unit made up of chakra. Even if it's possible to use a genjutsu on Sasori's sensory processing unit, Itachi most likely does not possess such a genjutsu because he never attacked a person without a brain before.


You seem not to grasp that, in the Naruto world, brain = chakra processing unit. If you think the neuron is the functional unit of the organ of consciousness in Naruto, how do you explain Naruto's kage bunshins transmitting info back to Naruto, even though they are made up entirely of chakra?


It's the same principle as saying "it's literally retarded to think a computer virus can't affect Itachi because he doesn't have a central processing unit, when he has a brain processing electrical information". A computer virus isn't designed to attack brains and genjutsu aren't designed to attack sensory processing units. It's foolish to think Sasori's brain substitute is susceptible to genjutsu just because it uses chakra like a real brain, because both brains and CPUs use electric impulses to communicate and computer virii still can't do shit to brains.

Genjutsus are already chakra-based. They use chakra to manipulate one's sensory inputs. If anything, it should be easier for Itachi to use his genjutsu on Sasori, since Sasori's brain is already all chakra. No switching one time of energy into another!

If Sasori was meant to be genjutsu proof, Kishi would have said so. It's extraordinary that someone who clearly has a chakra-brain would be immune to genjutsu. Since that is the more extraordinary position, it can be safely discarded.

Sorry, genjutsus work on Sasori.

Even if they did not, though, he'd still lose, since Itachi is so much faster than him, and can follow his chakra strings to their source and blow that source away.

...

By the way, the Sasori's brain : regular brain :: computer : regular brain analogy is seriously flawed. Both Sasori's brain and a regular ninja brain should be similarly oriented, since they're running the same 'program'. The "virus," in this case, is a genjutsu. Sasori's brain is running on a chakra platform, and, guess what, genjutsu are a chakra attack, hence Sasori, if anything, is extra-vulnerable. A regular brain, by way of contrast, is running on an electrochemical platform, so to attack it with chakra should require more doing.

[Sasori]

Where is it stated that the brain is the chakra processing unit?

[Rock of Ages]

Where is it stated that the brain is the chakra processing unit?

Glad you asked.

From freedictionary.com: rain
(brn)
n.
1.
a. The portion of the vertebrate central nervous system that is enclosed within the cranium, continuous with the spinal cord, and composed of gray matter and white matter. It is the primary center for the regulation and control of bodily activities, receiving and interpreting sensory impulses, and transmitting information to the muscles and body organs. It is also the seat of consciousness, thought, memory, and emotion.
b. A functionally similar portion of the invertebrate nervous system.

Sasori has consciousness, as well as a variety of sensory inputs, including sight. This has to come from somewhere. There's nowhere else it could be coming from but his heart-plug, which is infused with his chakra. Therefore, his chakra is doing the job.

You can see from definition b that organs which perform a function similar to brains, but which are not anatomically identical, are also termed "brains". Hence, talking about the chakra plug as Sasori's brain is appropriate.

...

Now then, take the case of Bunshins and Bijuus: composed entirely of chakra (whether elementally formed or not), they still have consciousness. Also, kyuubi, in pure chakra mode, was easily affected by Sharingan. Sasuke didn't pause to think that kyuubi had no physical brain before dismissing kyuubi, he just dismissed it.

Chakra seems to be the underpinning of all matter / energy / (consciousness?) in Naruto physics. To say that someone with a chakra brain has no "brain" and thus is immune to genjutsu (esp. sharingan genjutsu) is to badly misread the series, IMO.

[TWF]

Glad you asked.

From freedictionary.com:

Sasori has consciousness, as well as a variety of sensory inputs, including sight. This has to come from somewhere. There's nowhere else it could be coming from but his heart-plug, which is infused with his chakra. Therefore, his chakra is doing the job.

You can see from definition b that organs which perform a function similar to brains, but which are not anatomically identical, are also termed "brains". Hence, talking about the chakra plug as Sasori's brain is appropriate.

So essentially you have no proof from the manga to back your statement? Okay.

[YamiNoShinobi]

when Hidan's head got cut off he couldn't move his body because his brain couldn't send info to his body to make it move...

[kojak488]

I don't think I was targetting you in anyway...in fact, I didn't even know who I quoted until your reply.

Anyways, you are making logical fallacies. Read Grrblt's post to understand what some of them are.

/sigh

You really shouldn't lie. It's rather unbecoming. Suppose now I'll have to debunk Grrblt's post about why I didn't make logical fallacies at all.

Genjutsu are created to attack brains, they are not created to attack sensory processing unit made up of chakra. Even if it's possible to use a genjutsu on Sasori's sensory processing unit, Itachi most likely does not possess such a genjutsu because he never attacked a person without a brain before.

I will repeat myself from above: genjutsu does not attack attack the physical material of the brain. If you can't understand that, then please stop reading my post because it must be above your intelligence. Instead, it targets the information that one uses to perceive the world.

For instance you see a blue ball. That information is processed by the brain. That's obvious. It isn't processe by the physical matter of the brain though! So what genjutsu can do is make you see a green ball. It altered the information that you perceived, a blue ball, to make you see a green one. Moreover, it can alter what you see completely so that instead of a blue ball you see a eight kunai coming at you.

Again, if you can't understand up to this point then you're hopeless. It doesn't have anything to do with the brain, but rather the information that gets perceived and processed. In no way shape or form did it change a part of theh brain to make you see that green ball. Instead, it altered either the incoming information from that ball is blue to be that ball is green. Thus, you see a green ball. With me so far?

It has nothing to do with the "sensory processing unit." It has everything to do with the information that passes through the "sensory processing unit." I'm sorry if my previous posts gave you that impression, as I can see how that would be possible, but it isn't so.

The type of genjutsu would not be different. Simply, it'd be the same genjutsu. It shouldn't have any impact on whether Itachi can perform it or not because it has nothing to do with the physical part of the brain whatsoever!

It's the same principle as saying "it's literally retarded to think a computer virus can't affect Itachi because he doesn't have a central processing unit, when he has a brain processing electrical information". A computer virus isn't designed to attack brains and genjutsu aren't designed to attack sensory processing units. It's foolish to think Sasori's brain substitute is susceptible to genjutsu just because it uses chakra like a real brain, because both brains and CPUs use electric impulses to communicate and computer virii still can't do shit to brains.

Computers and the brain are too different to even take that into consideration. Moreover, computer viruses don't really attack a processor. They, GASP, attack the INFORMATION. I've yet to see a software virus that attacks a hardware processor. Wow, genjutsu, which alters information, can't attack a brain, a physical entity. IMAGINE THAT! And Itachi's "information" isn't a bunch of 0's and 1's... so no a computer virus wouldn't do anything to Itachi. Do you even understand computers!?

Again, it doesn't attack the "unit," it attacks the information.

The fact that it uses chakra is to amplify that he is a living being. My main point is that it targets the information that we use to perceive reality. Sasori must have this principle because he interacts with the environment. If he didn't, then he'd be a stone with chakra. Or a human puppet (they retain their chakra but obviously don't interact with the world)! Obviously Itachi's genjutsu wouldn't work on those puppets, even though they have chakra. Why? Because they don't interact with the world and, thus, don't have any information to alter.

If you still think I'm using logical fallacies then you should check this guy who brought up, incorrectly by the way, computer viruses. Moreover, the plural for computer virus is viruses, not virii. No major dictionary recognizes virii as an alternative form to viruses. Someone who can't even get the plural of viruses is supposed to call out my "logical fallacies?" I don't think so!

You lack 5th grade science.

So essentially you have no proof from the manga to back your statement? Okay.

Aha. Hahaha. Says the guy who doesn't have his own proof that Sasori is immune to genjutsu. There is no proof either way on the subject!

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Works both ways too! I know..

Hi, Kettle, you're black. And also a hypocrite! If this double posts... oh well I'll edit it into my last post!

[Rock of Ages]

when Hidan's head got cut off he couldn't move his body because his brain couldn't send info to his body to make it move...

And he stayed alive, despite lacking any blood going to his brain, because Jashin didn't cut off his chakra circulation.

[Sasori]

And he stayed alive, despite lacking any blood going to his brain, because Jashin didn't cut off his chakra circulation.............................WHAT?


@ others - I realise this is a continuous circle.

It's like the whole Conflict vs Consensus theory all over again.

[Rock of Ages]

............................WHAT?

I almost envy you, learning to speak a great language like English for the first time. Here's some motivation: http://www.worth1000.com/entries/87500/87594RWyv_w.jpg

[Sasori]

Jashin didn't cut off his circulation.Seriously...you want to question my skills :confused