View Full Version : Christianity and Islam, a discussion by.....
This a discussion by Sheikh Ahmed Deedat (may Allah's mercy be upon him) and Mr.Garry Miller about Christianity and Islam.
Download the video by this link:
Christianity & Islam, a discussion. (http://download.yousendit.com/1733C04435790682)
Listen to the end (about 2 hours and 50 minutes long), then discuss,
I repeat:Listen,THEN discuss.
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MartialHorror
01-29-2007, 07:58 PM
Oy, is anyone actually going to spend 2-3 hours watching this?
Gai-Sifu
01-29-2007, 08:03 PM
Probably not, but I'm gonna watch it while I eat my pancakes
I would be much more inclined to do it IF my religion was included :mad
Aokiji
01-30-2007, 12:18 AM
I would be much more inclined to do it IF my religion was included :mad
What's your religion again?
heavy_rasengan
01-30-2007, 12:21 AM
I have this video at home i think:D, Is this the one where ahmad deedat gives the guy a cup of poison to drink because the bible justifies that a true believer could live if he drinks poison?
What's your religion again?
judaism. And lol, it wasn't meant as a diss to the OP, its just that the three religions are SO close together, that if you have two I think you need all three, yet usually I simply see christianity and islam. Without us you wouldnt' have either :laugh
Oy, is anyone actually going to spend 2-3 hours watching this?
Actually, I found it very interesting that I practically had to peel myself away from it, every time saying to myself "Just a bit more" until it got very late (1.30 AM).
So you just have to start watching it, and then you won't want to stop until the end(well, at least I think most people won't).
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martryn
01-30-2007, 03:27 AM
Good God, this isn't some anti-Chritianity, pro-Islam video, is it? In response to this crap, I give you this:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/
Good God, this isn't some anti-Chritianity, pro-Islam video, is it? In response to this crap, I give you this:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/
First of all, the link you gave did not give any "rebuttal" to the video that I posted (did not answer what you called "crap"),and maybe it's because that this time it's a christian -who has studied in a christian environment, and had the highest marks in his religion lessons in his year, and has given lectures in churches, and probably knows more about christianity than you and me- thats doing the talking......watch the video if you want to know what I mean.
And in answer to the "christian interpretation" of Deedat's death(from the link you gave)(even though it's off topic)I'm only gonna say this:
What Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's son said about his last moments, he said that he (Ahmed Deedat) was listening to the Qur'an being read in a radio station, and that what he heard right before he died were these ayat(verses) from surat Ya Seen:
(1.)Ya Seen.(2.)By the Quran, full of Wisdom,(3.)Thou art indeed one of the messengers,(4.) On a Straight Way.(5.)(It is a Revelation) sent down by (Him), the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.(6.)In order that thou mayest warn a people, whose fathers were not warned, and who therefore remain heedless (of the Signs of Allah).(7.)The Word is proved true against the greater part of them: for they do not believe.(8.)We have put chains round their necks right up to their chins, so that they cannot bow their heads. (9. ) And We have put a bar in front of them and a bar behind them, and further, We have covered them up; so that they cannot see. (10.)The same is it to them whether thou admonish them or thou do not admonish them: they will not believe.(11.)Thou canst but admonish such a one as follows the Message and fears the (Lord) Most Gracious, unseen: give such a one, therefore, good tidings, of Forgiveness and a Reward most generous.(12.)Verily We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind, and of all things have We taken account in a clear Book (of evidence).
These aren't the last things that god would let someone who deserves punishment hear on the very last moment of his life.
Thats all I have to say.
Believe me or not, in the end, your free to believe what you want.
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MartialHorror
01-30-2007, 12:19 PM
reading about the guy, he sounds like a fanatic muslim bigot.
And wow, he got famous after debating an even bigger Christian biggot.
If he's debating someone here, keep in mind this
There was a debate between some famous Jew and some famous Christian during the earlier days of Christianity. The Christian was chosen by the King(or whatever) because of his knowledge and the Jewish guy basically won.
When looking at what that debate included, I thought I could do better........
Plus, I read that this guy was known for his inaccuracies.
I may watch it on Thursday, if I have time.
But keep in mind, there have been similar deaths of differing religions. Hell, even a Hindu(he was apparently anti-Hindu) had a similar scene just before he died(I speak of George Harrison, btw)
Good God, this isn't some anti-Chritianity, pro-Islam video, is it? In response to this crap, I give you this:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/
that has to be one of hte most biased sites ive seen ever
MH. The guy christian guy in that was actually supposedly the expert on christianity. And everyone claimed he won. But the rabbi SCHOOLED him. It wasn't even close.
Martryn. You can do better than that. I know we disagree on alot especially involving religion, but some of what this says is horrifying. It blatantly lies. It has no value what so ever. I am about to look at deedat, and I bet I don't like him either, but this site is absurd. Look at this
Over one billion people are not allowed to hear the Gospel. This is the greatest violation of human rights in our time
oh yeah. Because its not like the soviet union did anything bad. Or how china treats people. I mean, I know you can't agree with this martryn. I don't even have to refute that point. Everyone knows how much BS this is.
Yeah, read a bit by him online. Was going to watch the video but I had to sign up for the service, and honestly at that point I didn't feel it was wortht he effort. Maybe I will later. Can you summerize it at all cape?
Cape, a question. Does it say christianity is wrong and evil, or does it point out flaws in a respectful manner.
I have problems with christianity. Alot of them. Mainly being that jesus is not the messiah according to texts, yet christians claim he is. Of course, I think islam will have that problem too, as they like jesus, and he is arguably a false prophet...
However, that is not the point. An intelligent coversation pointing out flaws in christianity is one thing. You can have one of those about islam and judaism, and evolution as well. They all have flaws. Doesn't mean they are wrong.
Though I had a link to his works and some other sites and I checked them out. They are no where near as bad as the one you provided martryn. Yeah it says christianity is wrong. But more importantly it says that we are all people of the book (judaism christianity and islam), that while we have some differences we all believe in one god, in important prophets, and in the same core values. So why not live in peace, together, without hating one another while we intelligently debate the issues and hopefuly (though IMO doubtfuly) find an answer. They don't even call for the destruction of israel, just pulling back. And making jeruslem international. I mean, not going to happen but reasonable.
anyways, that is my call to all of us as well. We are all people of the book. Lay down your arms. We are brothers not enemies.
Can you summarize it at all cape?
Sorry, but I'd rather you hear it yourself, cuz I think that no matter how much I try to summarize it, it won't be the same as watching it.
Cape, a question. Does it say christianity is wrong and evil, or does it point out flaws in a respectful manner.
I'd say in a respectful manner.
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sadated_peon
01-31-2007, 09:27 AM
The quality of that video was terrible, I could barely hear what they were saying, is there a transcript somewhere.
Yeah sorry, it's terrible, but thats just in the first couple of minutes,and maybe a bit in the end.
As for the video quality,does it really matter?
You only want to hear what they say,right?
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sadated_peon
01-31-2007, 11:29 AM
Yeah sorry, it's terrible, but thats just in the first couple of minutes,and maybe a bit in the end.
As for the video quality,does it really matter?
You only want to hear what they say,right?
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Even the middle is bad, I was able to pick up one guys talking about 3/4 of the way through, but most of the time is too garble to hear.
Even the middle is bad, I was able to pick up one guys talking about 3/4 of the way through, but most of the time is too garble to hear.
Well, then I'm sorry, I couldn't find a higher quality for this particular video, but I honestly didn't think it was as bad as you said.
Anyway,why not then discuss what you've been able to hear instead?
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hmmm, which debate is it, I found a site that has some transcripts.
deedat and miller.
Also random question cape, you said "may Allah's mercy be upon him" when talking about deedat. Is that because he is dead and you respect him? I assume so. But do you say for non muslims who you also respect?
If I find the transcript I will give the link
Found this stuff. Of coures, I have no idea if the site is trustworthy, so I'm not downloading it, lol.
http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50016&TitleName=Ahmed_Deedat
I also found more links to DL his videos.
http://www.geocities.com/asimiqbal2nd/
is is there under deedat. Again, no idea about the sites themselves, its a link from wiki.
I found deedat stuff on youtube, but not miller. I watched a little bit of it. He just seems like the regular guy who refuses to accept he is wrong no matter what. Then again, most of these people who do these debates are like that. Its no surprise. The guy who was against seemed like that as well. I don't know why we pay attention to these people...
Also random question cape, you said "may Allah's mercy be upon him" when talking about deedat. Is that because he is dead and you respect him? I assume so. But do you say for non muslims who you also respect?
Yes,I said that because I respect him and because he's dead, but in Islam we can say that to any dead muslim.
And no, we do not say that to dead non-muslims even if we respect them,because they have died being non-muslims, so we can't ask for Allah's mercy on them when He clearly said in His book that they won't have any mercy (Doesn't mean we have to curse them or disrespect them or hate them or not admire them,just not ask Allah's mercy for them.)
About the sites, the first site is reliable but it only has low quality videos,
and the second one doesn't have the video I posted....but thanks for the effort nonetheless.:)
I found deedat stuff on youtube, but not miller. I watched a little bit of it. He just seems like the regular guy who refuses to accept he is wrong no matter what. Then again, most of these people who do these debates are like that. Its no surprise. The guy who was against seemed like that as well. I don't know why we pay attention to these people...
We pay attention to these people because they are people who know their stuff,so normal people who don't know much can watch and form their own opinions about what they've seen and heard,after seeing what both sides have to offer.
Sorry,but your last sentence kind of irked me, I meant no offense to you at all.
PS:Nobody finished watching the video yet?
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It is true they know what they are talking about. But, in general, they refuse to admit they could even possibly be wrong. Not even that the quran is the whole truth, but simply that he always interperts it the right way. They just remeind of pat and jerry :mad
And actually, isn't it debatable about whether or not allah's mercy is given to those who are not muslim? I have seen good arguments that jews will actually ahve allah's mercy according to the quran
It is true they know what they are talking about. But, in general, they refuse to admit they could even possibly be wrong. Not even that the quran is the whole truth, but simply that he always interprets it the right way.
You said it yourself,"he always interprets it the right way".
You see, in Islam, it's not up to you or me to interpret the Qur'an the way we see it fit, it's up to the scholars, who interpret it based on their knowledge of Islam, based on what the scholars that came a while after the prophet's (PBUH) death wrote about what the son's of the prophet's(PBUH) sahabah(friends) said about how their fathers who knew the prophet(PBUH) interpreted the Qur'an, and there has been very rarely -if any- contradictions between the interpretations of the scholars from 14 centurys till now.
That is one of the many ways that Allah has protected his religion from corruption.
And actually, isn't it debatable about whether or not allah's mercy is given to those who are not muslim? I have seen good arguments that jews will actually ahve allah's mercy according to the quran
No, it isn't debatable because of the ayah that had put an end to these debates, which is from surat Al-'Imran, ayah number 85 (translated):
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."
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You said it yourself,"he always interprets it the right way".
You see, in Islam, it's not up to you or me to interpret the Qur'an the way we see it fit, it's up to the scholars, who interpret it based on their knowledge of Islam, based on what the scholars that came a while after the prophet's (PBUH) death wrote about what the son's of the prophet's(PBUH) sahabah(friends) said about how their fathers who knew the prophet(PBUH) interpreted the Qur'an, and there has been very rarely -if any- contradictions between the interpretations of the scholars from 14 centurys till now.
That is one of the many ways that Allah has protected his religion from corruption.
well, we must agree to disagree here. And this is from both reading the quran myself, from discussing this with people who study it, and from speaking with many muslims.
No, it isn't debatable because of the ayah that had put an end to these debates, which is from surat Al-'Imran, ayah number 85 (translated):
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."
Well, I must say there are things in the quran which contradict each other. This appears to be one of them.
well, we must agree to disagree here. And this is from both reading the quran myself, from discussing this with people who study it, and from speaking with many muslims.
Well then, do as you please.
Well, I must say there are things in the quran which contradict each other. This appears to be one of them.
Of course you'll find things in the Qur'an that contradict each other if you go ahead and interpret it the way you think, and all the more if you form your opinion based on a translation, that is why I said it's only up to the scholars because of their great background of Islam, you don't go asking any Muslim from the middle of the street to interpret it for you, because many of them don't know much about it(especially those who don't know Arabic very well).
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Of course you'll find things in the Qur'an that contradict each other if you go ahead and interpret it the way you think, and all the more if you form your opinion based on a translation, that is why I said it's only up to the scholars because of their great background of Islam, you don't go asking any Muslim from the middle of the street to interpret it for you, because many of them don't know much about it(especially those who don't know Arabic very well).
but that doesn't work. Nobody wanted their religion like that. Not jesus, not mohhamad, not moses, not david, nobody. They didn't want someone in charge of telling you what it meant. That leads to an aristocracy that can controll a governmenment, like were iran is today.
wolfn64
02-05-2007, 10:54 PM
guys i got a question, i heard many people say that islam is a continuation of christianity, however when ever i see images of islam theres always seem to be a crescent moon especially in many flags. What is the significance of the crescent? does it represent allah or the one true god? or its prophet and if it does? wouldn't that dispute the fact that we believe in the same god because im a christian and the moon is never revered as a devine good, actually if you look at it the sun is depicted more than the moon in many of our paintings and acts of god!
guys i got a question, i heard many people say that islam is a continuation of christianity, however when ever i see images of islam theres always seem to be a crescent moon especially in many flags. What is the significance of the crescent? does it represent allah or the one true god? or its prophet and if it does? wouldn't that dispute the fact that we believe in the same god because im a christian and the moon is never revered as a devine good, actually if you look at it the sun is depicted more than the moon in many of our paintings and acts of god!
The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.
It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman, had a dream in which the crescent moon stretched from one end of the earth to the other. Taking this as a good omen, he chose to keep the crescent and make it the symbol of his dynasty. There is speculation that the five points on the star represent the five pillars of Islam, but this is pure conjecture. The five points were not standard on the Ottoman flags, and it is still not standard on flags used in the Muslim world today.
For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole.
Many Muslims reject using the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam. The faith of Islam has historically had no symbol, and many refuse to accept what is essentially an ancient pagan icon. It is certainly not in uniform use among Muslims.
but that doesn't work. Nobody wanted their religion like that. Not jesus, not mohhamad, not moses, not david, nobody. They didn't want someone in charge of telling you what it meant. That leads to an aristocracy that can controll a governmenment, like were iran is today.
No, your wrong.
I don't know about Jesus or Moses or David, but Mohammed (PBUH) wanted it that way,he didn't leave us lost to follow what we think is right, he showed us the way as he said (translated):
"The scholars are the prophets inheritors."
People follow the prophets in their life time, because they know every thing about their religion, you see? because they know, thats why they are followed, and after that they follow the prophets' inheritors; the scholars, why? because they know, thats why they are followed.
You see, the problem with you people of the west -and those who are effected by them- is that you base other people's religion based on your dark experience with Christianity, when it was the ruler, it was disastrous to everybody.So you said, ok, if Christianity failed at being the rule that is followed, then that deafinetly means that no religion can.
But on the contrary, with muslims it has always been from the very beginning of their history, that the more they hold on to Islam and rule by it, the more Allah makes them greater, and the less, the less.
And please don't talk to me about Iran, their only considered an Islamic country by themselves.
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MartialHorror
02-08-2007, 06:53 PM
er, Cape obviously knows little about Islamic countries.
Most suffer from poverty, actually, and have you ever seen Kosovo?
A very baseless statement........
Cape, again I must diagree with you. It is my understanding that the quran is not meant to be complicated. Its not supposed to be something that you need alot of help to understand. Assuming that islam is the true religion, then I would say that the idea that people could not understand the idea without the scholars or someone else is simply a way to control the common person. Perhaps scholars are to be listend to and respected, but how does one become a scholar. Do you ahve to agree with others? Or do you have to study the quran and come to understand it, not neccecarily with the help of others.
heavy_rasengan
02-11-2007, 04:58 PM
Cape, again I must diagree with you. It is my understanding that the quran is not meant to be complicated. Its not supposed to be something that you need alot of help to understand. Assuming that islam is the true religion, then I would say that the idea that people could not understand the idea without the scholars or someone else is simply a way to control the common person. Perhaps scholars are to be listend to and respected, but how does one become a scholar. Do you ahve to agree with others? Or do you have to study the quran and come to understand it, not neccecarily with the help of others.
Listen, go read the Holy Quran in Arabic in then talk about contradictions or other bullshit statements that you have right now. The Quran is not meant to be complicated and it also isnt meant to be read in english, because arabic is supposed to be the language of all of the followers. If you want the true meaning of the Quran, read it in arabic.
heavy_rasengan
02-11-2007, 05:09 PM
er, Cape obviously knows little about Islamic countries.
Most suffer from poverty, actually, and have you ever seen Kosovo?
A very baseless statement........
Most suffer from poverty? Most have been influenced horribly by some western country. Most have been divided due to western influence. Most have been corrupted due to western influence. Lets take a look at Afghanistan. It was attacked by three Super powers in a short time period of 100 years. No fucking wonder its in poverty. Lets see palestine. It was falsely claimed by Israel, the western world didnt give two shits about it so they helped Israel, Israel to this day has been destroying Palestinian infrastracture and killing palestinian civilians. No fucking wonder its in poverty. Let me make this clear to you. It's not because of Islam that our countries are corrupted, its the lack of Islam.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tJgjtB_X-9w
Heavy rasengan, I think I have run into a fundy. If I am wrong, please let me know.
As for the arabic thing, I again must disagree in part. Perhaps it would make more sense in arabic.
Though if that is true, it still says NOTHING about my point, which is you shouldn't only listen to those who have been told about the quran, you should be able to study it yourself. I never mentinoed contradictions.
But the quran was originally translated from god to man. Thus the original language was gods. To presume that a man made language, arabic, could possibly be comprehensive enough to include gods language is absurd. If there are in fact contradictions in teh quran, attribute it to that if you will.
T4R0K
02-12-2007, 06:48 AM
It's not because of Islam that our countries are corrupted, its the lack of Islam.
Can you explain ? I'm not sure how to understand it.
Can you explain ? I'm not sure how to understand it.
I am guessing, not sure but from the sound of him (him? her?) that he/she feels like if the country was truly islamic it would be perfect, since he/she seems to believe islam is divine in nature, and thus perfect. I could be wrong. however, I feel that an theology, no matter how good the religion in theory, will always be corrupted. So there is taht, and then the whole don't force your ideas on others thing.
MartialHorror
02-13-2007, 12:09 PM
Most suffer from poverty? Most have been influenced horribly by some western country. Most have been divided due to western influence. Most have been corrupted due to western influence. Lets take a look at Afghanistan. It was attacked by three Super powers in a short time period of 100 years. No fucking wonder its in poverty. Lets see palestine. It was falsely claimed by Israel, the western world didnt give two shits about it so they helped Israel, Israel to this day has been destroying Palestinian infrastracture and killing palestinian civilians. No fucking wonder its in poverty. Let me make this clear to you. It's not because of Islam that our countries are corrupted, its the lack of Islam.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tJgjtB_X-9w
So your blaming the Islamic countries problems on the westerners.
Guess what? They aren't invaded for no reason. Even if somehow their countries would prosper, the fact their attacking other people simply means someone is going to bitchslap them.
Jeez, please don't make excuses like that. The fact of the matter is, the Islamic Countries are not doing very well and even if it is because of the west, we wouldn't be attacking them if they wouldn't have started it.
You are simply basing your views on baseless idealism. Please name some successful islamic countries.
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