Lee vs. Haku

[naruto_156]

who do you think would win? Lee or Haku?

[Sasuke Sharingan]

I triy the battol on my PS2 game and Rocklee Won
but the the show
Still ROCKLEE:yell :yell :yell :yell

[Sara]

Haku. I think.

[darkwater297]

Gates > Haku.

[MangekyoMaster]

Haku would win, his demonic ice mirrors are too strong and hard.

[Sasuke Sharingan]

DAME YOU PEOPLE WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? PICK ROCKLEE

[naruto_156]

DAME YOU PEOPLE WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? PICK ROCKLEE

YEAH ROCK LEE THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yell

[Ponko]

Rock Lee. He could knock out Haku before he even realized Lee had moved. We already saw Sasuke best Haku in taijutsu without the sharingan, and Lee beat Sasuke when he was using it. Unless Lee sat around waiting for Haku to trap him in the mirrors (which Lee may even be able to escape by punching or slipping past them), Haku is going to be taken down.

[killer_konoichi]

Lee probably... Shouldn' this be in the battle dome?

[KazumaSakuraUchiha]

lee pwns this thread

[~Zaxxon~]

lee pwns this thread

exactly. :amuse

[Kakuzu]

Lee probably... Shouldn' this be in the battle dome?
No. END is an exception to protect dub watchers from spoilers.

I believe Lee would win. Without his weights he would be as fast or faster than Haku with mirrors. If thats not enough, his Gates would seal the deal.

[Dre]

i think lee would win the gates are crazy

[killer_konoichi]

No. END is an exception to protect dub watchers from spoilers.

I believe Lee would win. Without his weights he would be as fast or faster than Haku with mirrors. If thats not enough, his Gates would seal the deal.

Ah. OK, thanks.

@ naruto_156: No worries :)

[namezox]

rock lee's speed can kick haku butt

[Fall n fail]

ROCK LEE of course man

[squall lionheart]

Rock lee
He can run fast and attack the ice mirrors before Haku can attack him

[Aroku]

definatly rock lee

[Haruko]

Haku isn't as slow as you think. I think that he would have a good chance, seeing as he could keep his distance from Lee where Lee can't attack. Also Kakashi didn't see Haku coming (when he Raikiri'd him), so why should Lee be able to see any faster. I put Haku for this one.

[reddik]

Rock Lee would win.

[dsj9999]

Much as i like haku, probably Rock lee, but even so, Haku still has the ice mirrors. But yeah, Lee.

[Nicky The Ninja]

Haku would win.

[MangekyoMaster]

Just because Lee is fast doesn't mean anything. Haku is just as fast with his demonic ice mirrors.

[Geminico]

Probably Haku. Although Rock Lee is super fast, Sasuke using his Sharingan wasn't enough to fully catch on to Haku's speed with his ice mirrors.

[MangekyoMaster]

Haku is so fast no eyes can see him(except for sharingan). Rock Lee doesn't sharingan, so he can not see Haku no matter what.

[Believe It!]

It would be a close fight. I think Lee would win though. Haku would have to spread ice around herself to prevent Lee from running up to her and getting in close. This is because if Lee were to get in close and use taijutsu, Haku would be finished off in just one punch, forget the Primary Lotus.

She would have to use the Thousand Needles of Death to keep Lee away from her and position him to be trapped in the Crystal Ice Mirrors. From that point she would be able to keep up with Lee's speed, and Lee would be unable to predict where Haku's needle attacks would come from.

However, Lee would still be able to dodge the needles by opening the inner chakra gates and by using his speed he would eventually be able to smash through the mirrors. Also, even if Haku were to hit critical areas of Lee's body there wouldn't be any guarantee that Lee would fall or slow down long enough for Haku to deal more damage, since Lee is the type to never give up while Haku was.

Eventually, Lee would be able to smash the mirrors and get Haku to expose herself. The only way she would win would be to catch Lee off guard with the mirrors and deliver the temporary death state needles. Allowing Lee time to open the gates would reduce her chances of hitting the correct spot, as Lee would be able to move faster, thus Haku would not be viewing him in slow motion as she did with Naruto and Sasuke. It is too bad that Haku died. She probably could have gotten a lot stronger and a lot more skilled by developing new attacks.

I would have to say that Lee would win though.

[Haseo]

I think RockLee would win, with the 8 gates and all.

[Harlita]

I think Lee definitely would win. He's stubborn as heck and would have opened his gates for faster movement.

Haku has his bloodline limit, but I don't think he'd be used to fighting someone that fast.

It's hard to tell, but I think he would have fallen to Lee in the end.

Which would suck cause I like both of those guys. >.<

Hard choice!

[Fuzzly]

Rock Lee. What's my basis? Pure, unadulterated fanboism.

[Sara]

Gates > Haku.
Ice > Picket fence I win.:P

[Soi Fon]

I believe Lee would win. Without his weights he would be as fast or faster than Haku with mirrors. If thats not enough, his Gates would seal the deal.

Completely agree with you, Zabuza. :)

[MangekyoMaster]

Lee would not be able to see Haku.

[Believe It!]

Lee would not need to see her. All he would need to do would be to smash all the mirrors until Haku has none left to protect her.

[chidorimaster99]

definatly lee

[Shadow Raki]

Rock Lee would take him easily.

[starblade876]

Something apparently necessary to note: Lee's not just going to take off his weights and open Gates willy-nilly. It's unknown whether he'd figure out whether to do either before it's too late. There's pretty much no doubt that Haku is smarter than Lee, so it's probably safe to say that Haku would put up his Mirrors first if he has a source of water for them (if it needs a source of water?).

It might be fair to say that Haku without Mirrors is the same speed as Lee with weights, but, based on Haku being able to intercept Kakashi's Raikiri, Haku with Mirrors is probably a bit faster than Lee without weights.

Haku's no pushover, but Lee is stronger and probably strong enough to break a Mirror without the need for Gates if needed. However, with Haku's speed in the Mirrors and knowledge of the body, he might be able to prevent Lee from even getting to a Mirror, let alone breaking one. I don't know if Lee could react fast enough to block or dodge Haku's attacks then.

Knowing Haku's desire to not hurt others, he probably won't kill Lee even if he's at an advantage. Eventually, Lee will probably figure out that he needs his Gates to stand a chance. After releasing a few Gates, breaking the Mirrors, and getting Haku out in the open, he'll realize that Haku didn't want to hurt him. Haku would ask Lee to kill him. Lee would refuse. Someone does a time jump jutsu and, before they realize it, they're both legal age in the country they're in. They cry. They hug. They kiss. Hot, passionate love ensues. The end.

[Believe It!]

It might be fair to say that Haku without Mirrors is the same speed as Lee with weights, but, based on Haku being able to intercept Kakashi's Chidori, Haku with Mirrors is probably a bit faster than Lee without weights.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on there slick. As far as speed goes...

Haku < Sasuke < Lee

Sasuke was a little stronger when he first fought Lee than he was when he first fough Haku, yet Sasuke could not keep up with Lee. Lee is faster than Haku was even with the weights.

Next, you cannot compare the Lightning Edge attack, which is only as fast as the person running with it, to Lee's speed. Haku was able to get in front of the Lightning Edge because she used her mirror to get there before Kakashi could hit Zabuza with it. Rock Lee may have been able to do the same thing using only taijutsu, in fact I am pretty sure he could match that speed.

Haku's no pushover, but Lee is stronger and probably strong enough to break a Mirror without the need for Gates if needed. However, with Haku's speed in the Mirrors and knowledge of the body, he might be able to prevent Lee from even getting to a Mirror, let alone breaking one.

Maybe, but not likely. The faster Lee moves the faster he appears to Haku. In that case she would not be observing him in slow motion.

I don't know if Lee could react fast enough to block or dodge Haku's attacks then.

But Haku's attacks don't do much damage anyway. Lee would not let needles stop him.

After releasing a few Gates, breaking the Mirrors, and getting Haku out in the open, he'll realize that Haku didn't want to hurt him. Haku would ask Lee...

Okay, lets not get into your out of battle fanfiction. Lee would win. The end.

[Fox Mccloud]

my votes for lee.

[Harlita]

Next, you cannot compare the Lightning Edge attack, which is only as fast as the person running with it, to Lee's speed.

The faster Lee moves the faster he appears to Haku. In that case she would not be observing him in slow motion.


I agree on both accounts.

And I don't think that Lee would be able to break Haku's Ice Mirrors.

Weren't they based on chakra strength and not actual Ice? Elemental Ice right? Which is why Sasuke's fire techniques wouldn't work against them.

So I don't think that brute strength necessarily would either.

It took the kyuubi's chakra to break the strength of Haku's ice mirrors, so in the end to me, it would come down to Haku's chakra vs. Lee's stamina.

[Believe It!]

No, Sasuke's fire did melt them a little bit, but Haku said that he could not melt them with that level of fire. If Sasuke had a level that was higher, like Sarutobi's, then the ice would have melted instantly.

Plus, if brute strength worked for Naruto then it would for Lee. Believe it!

Another thing. Naruto dodged Haku's attack even though he was not as fast as Lee. Lee would probably be able to do the same thing.

[Takuto]

Rock Lee imo, i beleive he's faster than Haku and could easily take him down with his Taijutsu, although would be interesting with Haku's crystal ice mirrors.

Overall i would say Lee because of his speed and his Taijustu.

[anbuXx]

Lee is so much faster than haku,and powerful.Lee all the way!

[MangekyoMaster]

Why does people say that Rock Lee is faster than Haku??? No one can see Haku(unless they have a sharingan) while you can still see Lee. When Haku traped Lee with his Demonic Ice Mirrors Lee will not be able to see Haku. Haku would then pwn lee with lightning speed, and needles.

[starblade876]

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on there slick. As far as speed goes...

Haku < Sasuke < Lee

Sasuke was a little stronger when he first fought Lee than he was when he first fough Haku, yet Sasuke could not keep up with Lee. Lee is faster than Haku was even with the weights.Sasuke couldn't keep up with Haku. He needed Naruto to distract Haku and predetermined where to attack. Sasuke could eventually see Haku's, but he couldn't move as fast still. Similarly, Sasuke could see Lee move, but he couldn't keep up. Mirror-less Haku vs. weighted Lee has a good chance of being wrong, but it's difficult to tell because Haku might have been toying with Sasuke and, thus, not gone his full Mirror-less speed.

Next, you cannot compare the Lightning Edge attack, which is only as fast as the person running with it, to Lee's speed. Haku was able to get in front of the Lightning Edge because she used her mirror to get there before Kakashi could hit Zabuza with it. Rock Lee may have been able to do the same thing using only taijutsu, in fact I am pretty sure he could match that speed.I most certainly can use it for comparison. Were you not paying attention to Kakashi when he was talking to Gai? Kakashi said he needed to train Sasuke to attain a high enough speed (i.e. the speed of Lee without weights) to use the Chidori. That's what makes it safe to assume that the Chidori and Raikiri go about as fast as Lee without weights.

Maybe, but not likely. The faster Lee moves the faster he appears to Haku. In that case she would not be observing him in slow motion.Even if Lee took off his weights, Haku could probably still see Lee and react to anything he does.

But Haku's attacks don't do much damage anyway. Lee would not let needles stop him.Knowledge of the body more than likely includes ways to incapacitate the body (i.e. limiting the ability to use arms and legs).

Okay, lets not get into your out of battle fanfiction. Lee would win. The end.I'm sorry; I forgot how serious this is and the number of lives that depend on it.

No, Sasuke's fire did melt them a little bit, but Haku said that he could not melt them with that level of fire. If Sasuke had a level that was higher, like Sarutobi's, then the ice would have melted instantly.Don't say it like it's absolute. You don't know what level of fire is required to melt the ice.

Another thing. Naruto dodged Haku's attack even though he was not as fast as Lee. Lee would probably be able to do the same thing.When?

[Believe It!]

Why does people say that Rock Lee is faster than Haku??? No one can see Haku(unless they have a sharingan) while you can still see Lee.

Wrong. The sharingan can track movements, it cannot follow an opponent who moves at light speed. FAST EYES have a better chance at that, which Lee has because he can release the brain's restriction on the muscles.

When Haku traped Lee with his Demonic Ice Mirrors Lee will not be able to see Haku. Haku would then pwn lee with lightning speed, and needles.

Lee would be able to match Haku's speed and grab her if she got close enough. The needles could be dodged or blocked and would not do much damage.

Look, I like Haku a lot more than Lee too, but you have to face facts. Lee would beat her eventually.

Sasuke couldn't keep up with Haku. He needed Naruto to distract Haku and predetermined where to attack.

Grrrr. I was replying to your comment about Haku's speed without the mirrors.

"...Haku without Mirrors is the same speed as Lee with weights..."

Remember?

Sasuke could eventually see Haku's, but he couldn't move as fast still. Similarly, Sasuke could see Lee move, but he couldn't keep up. Mirror-less Haku vs. weighted Lee has a good chance of being wrong, but it's difficult to tell because Haku might have been toying with Sasuke and, thus, not gone his full Mirror-less speed.

You can't say that Haku may have been faster than she showed when fighting Sasuke because you don't know that. Plus, Zabuza was amazed that Sasuke could keep up with Haku's speed, which means she was moving her fastest then. Otherwise Zabuza would have asked himself why Haku was not using her full speed.

I most certainly can use it for comparison. Were you not paying attention to Kakashi when he was talking to Gai? Kakashi said he needed to train Sasuke to attain a high enough speed (i.e. the speed of Lee without weights) to use the Chidori. That's what makes it safe to assume that the Chidori goes about as fast as Lee without weights.

WRONG!!! That was to use it effectively by making it past someone's guard first and land the blow. When Kakashi used his Lightning Blade he had a "captive audience", thus he did not have to run nearly as fast.

Even if Lee took off his weights, Haku could probably still see Lee and react to anything he does.

She wouldn't be able to hit him with anything though, since the needles slow down once they leave the ice mirrors and enter normal space.

Knowledge of the body more than likely includes ways to incapacitate the body (i.e. limiting the ability to use arms and legs).

WHAT!!! I don't think she could incapacitate his arms or legs any better than Gaara did at the preliminary chunnin tournament. Lee wouldn't let needles stop him.

Don't say it like it's absolute. You don't know what level of fire is required to melt the ice.

I know everything. Haven't you heard? Seriously though, I have done my homework on Haku. I know a lot more about her than you do. For example, you don't even know the simple fact that she was a girl. LOL!

When?

Oh I don't know... like when Naruto went nine-tail, smashed one of the mirrors, Haku jumped out of one of the shards of that mirror to attack Naruto and hit nothing but bridge because Naruto did a horizontal flip to the side then rushed back at her, grabbed her, and then punched her lights out and her body through another mirror! Only one of the best fights in the series thus far. Believe it!

[anbuXx]

But lee wouldf fly past theme zenbone needles like nothing,and if he usedf the eight inner gates he would brake the mirrors easly.

[starblade876]

You can't say that Haku may have been faster than she showed when fighting Sasuke because you don't know that. Plus, Zabuza was amazed that Sasuke could keep up with Haku's speed, which means she was moving her fastest then. Otherwise Zabuza would have asked himself why Haku was not using her full speed.I can say "may" because I don't know. Zabuza was amazed at how much Sasuke grew, not because Haku was doing his best and was bested. Zabuza even told Haku to stop playing around so much or something to that effect. Whether that meant he wanted Haku to use the Mirrors or not is arguable.

WRONG!!! That was to use it effectively by making it past someone's guard first and land the blow. When Kakashi used his Lightning Blade he had a "captive audience", thus he did not have to run nearly as fast.It's not to make it past someone's guard; it can cut through just about any guard. It's high-speed so that the opponent is unlikely to dodge. When Kakashi used the Raikiri it was to end his fight with Zabuza fast because he wanted to help the others. Someone who's in a hurry isn't likely to take his or her sweet time. Looking at it again, he sure doesn't look like he's trying to hold back anything, too.

She wouldn't be able to hit him with anything though, since the needles slow down once they leave the ice mirrors and enter normal space.Haku would probably notice that Lee is fast before he puts up the Mirrors. Knowing that, once the Mirrors are up, the smartest thing to do would be to slow Lee down. Lee, not knowing about the Mirrors, isn't likely to take off his weights to increase his speed. It shouldn't be arguable that Haku with Mirrors is faster that Lee with weights. During this time that Lee has his weights on and haven't opened any Gates, is the time when he's easily susceptible to senbon coming in multiple directions. It'd be similar to the Senbon Rainstorm that guy that Gaara killed during the Chuunin Exams. Lee doesn't have the ability to block or dodge that many at once.

WHAT!!! I don't think she could incapacitate his arms or legs any better than Gaara did at the preliminary chunnin tournament. Lee wouldn't let needles stop him.You don't know what Haku can do. We're told that Haku is incredibly talented and knows a lot. He can kill a seemingly chuunin or above ninja with a single senbon. Also, I said "limiting." If Lee gets hit, I have no doubt that he'll still try, but it doesn't mean he'll still be as effective.

Oh I don't know... like when Naruto went nine-tail, smashed one of the mirrors, Haku jumped out of one of the shards of that mirror to attack Naruto and hit nothing but bridge because Naruto did a horizontal flip to the side then rushed back at her, grabbed her, and then punched her lights out and her body through another mirror! Only one of the best fights in the series thus far. Believe it!You said what I thought, "Naruto went nine-tail". His speed, strength, and reaction time obviously are increased in that state. Whether those are above Lee's can only be a guess. Besides that, you know that Haku was weakened and slowed by having the Mirrors up for so long at that time.

[Believe It!]

I can say "may" because I don't know.

Oh, well then Haku could win because she MAY be able to materialize a plasma canon out thin air to blow a hole through the universe that sucks Lee into oblivion!

Zabuza was amazed at how much Sasuke grew, not because Haku was doing his best and was bested. Zabuza even told Haku to stop playing around so much or something to that effect. Whether that meant he wanted Haku to use the Mirrors or not is arguable.

Wrong again Kakashi! He said "Get on with it" then she used the mirrors. So obviously it was for the mirrors. Before that he said, "So, he can keep up with Haku's speed huh?" He expressed no amazement at that point. He also said "The brat's improved" way before that, when Sasuke defeated the water clones. Zabuza later thought, "No one's faster than Haku!" when Sasuke kicked Haku across the bridge. He did acknowledge that Sasuke could beat Haku's speed, which means she was not holding back! That means Lee would have been faster than Haku by a long shot.

It's not to make it past someone's guard; it can cut through just about any guard.

Such as sand spikes shooting out at you or perhaps kunai knives? LOL! You would need speed to avoid stuff like that! Learn your Naruto, then we'll talk more.

It's high-speed so that the opponent is unlikely to dodge.

So then you admit the Lightning Blade has nothing to do with speed as long as your opponent cannot possibly dodge, as was the case with Zabuza. Thanks.

When Kakashi used the Chidori it was to end his fight with Zabuza fast because he wanted to help the others.

Oh hell no! You struck a nerve with that one my friend. Don't get me started on why Kakashi used his Lightning Blade. I'll just say that I disagree with you strongly about that and move on.

Someone who's in a hurry isn't likely to take his or her sweet time. Looking at it again, he sure doesn't look like he's trying to hold back anything, too.

Did Kakashi move as fast as Rock Lee? No. Then you cannot compare the two.

Haku would probably notice that Lee is fast before he puts up the Mirrors. Knowing that, once the Mirrors are up, the smartest thing to do would be to slow Lee down. Lee, not knowing about the Mirrors, isn't likely to take off his weights to increase his speed.

Unless Lee took his weights off before the fight, which he is likely to do in a vs battle like this. I do agree that Haku's only chance would be to use the mirrors and then immediately try to take Lee out. However, the mirrors take a while to set up. Lee would have enough time to remove his weights in that case.

It shouldn't be arguable that Haku with Mirrors is faster that Lee with weights. During this time that Lee has his weights on and haven't opened any Gates, is the time when he's easily susceptible to senbon coming in multiple directions. It'd be similar to the Senbon Rainstorm that guy that Gaara killed during the Chuunin Exams. Lee doesn't have the ability to block or dodge that many at once.

Again, what would be the damage and how would it affect Lee? All Lee would need to do would be to defend his critical areas. After that, he could use the gates and remove his weights mid fight if he were to still be wearing them.

You don't know what Haku can do.

I don't know what Haku could do? Me? I am the Haku Otaku!!!

We're told that Haku is incredibly talented and knows a lot. He can kill a seemingly chuunin or above ninja with a single senbon.

I know what we were told. We were told this by Zabuza, who was saying it to Kakashi. That could have been a lie to make Kakashi more nervous about Sasuke and Naruto getting killed. Zabuza also said that Haku was always too soft and too kind. So I can't help but think of your point as moot in this case, because I am sure Lee is capable of killing a chuunin level or above ninja in one punch. Could Haku hit Lee with such an attack? That is the million dollar question.

Also, I said "limiting." If Lee gets hit, I have no doubt that he'll still try, but it doesn't mean he'll still be as effective.

That's where the gates come in. The point is that Lee would not stand there like a dumbbell and keep getting hit like Sasuke and Naruto did.

You said what I thought, "Naruto went nine-tail". His speed, strength, and reaction time obviously are increased in that state.

WOW! Sort of like how Lee's speed is increased without the weights and with the gates opened.

Whether those are above Lee's can only be a guess.

I think it's safe to say that Lee can match that.

Besides that, you know that Haku was weakened and slowed by having the Mirrors up for so long at that time.

Yes.

[fagget_br]

i guess weightless with 5 gates open lee would win, that is if he was trapped in the mirrors

[starblade876]

Oh, well then Haku could win because she MAY be able to materialize a plasma canon out thin air to blow a hole through the universe that sucks Lee into oblivion!Straw man much?

Wrong again Kakashi! He said "Get on with it" then she used the mirrors. So obviously it was for the mirrors. Before that he said, "So, he can keep up with Haku's speed huh?" He expressed no amazement at that point. He also said "The brat's improved" way before that, when Sasuke defeated the water clones. Zabuza later thought, "No one's faster than Haku!" when Sasuke kicked Haku across the bridge. He did acknowledge that Sasuke could beat Haku's speed, which means she was not holding back! That means Lee would have been faster than Haku by a long shot.I forgot the differences in the dub during this arc compared to the sub I watched. So, yes, in the dub, it seems clear that Zabuza meant that Haku was going as fast and needed the Mirrors. In the sub, it just seems like he's telling Haku to stop playing around/underestimating Sasuke. In any case, Haku's base speed really doesn't matter much.

Such as sand spikes shooting out at you or perhaps kunai knives? LOL! You would need speed to avoid stuff like that! Learn your Naruto, then we'll talk more.Uh, I have no doubt that the Chidori and Raikiri can cut through sand spikes and kunai. The user, however, is still susceptible to getting hit by those, so, yes, speed and reactions are required to avoid those. So? The guards I was talking about were shields, armor, and blocks (arms and legs).

So then you admit the Lightning Blade has nothing to do with speed as long as your opponent cannot possibly dodge, as was the case with Zabuza. Thanks.Um, no. I said/meant it was high-speed so that opponents were less likely to dodge; it doesn't matter whether the opponent can move or not.

Oh hell no! You struck a nerve with that one my friend. Don't get me started on why Kakashi used his Lightning Blade. I'll just say that I disagree with you strongly about that and move on.Okay... Regardless of whether you agree with the reason, he still used it to try to finish the fight ASAP, meaning he would more than likely go at it at top speed. It shouldn't even really be a question about whether Kakashi can be as fast as Lee without weights, too.

Did Kakashi move as fast as Rock Lee? No. Then you cannot compare the two.Oh yeah, I forgot you were there with a radar gun to measure Kakashi's speed and also at the Chuunin exams to measure Lee's speed. My bad.

Unless Lee took his weights off before the fight, which he is likely to do in a vs battle like this. I do agree that Haku's only chance would be to use the mirrors and then immediately try to take Lee out. However, the mirrors take a while to set up. Lee would have enough time to remove his weights in that case.Read my first post in this topic. Lee doesn't take off his weights or use his Gates before every fight. More than likely Haku would use the Mirrors before Lee does either. It seems apparent that they usually wait to see what a jutsu does rather than trying to interrupt it; Lee would probably wait for all the Mirrors.

Again, what would be the damage and how would it affect Lee? All Lee would need to do would be to defend his critical areas. After that, he could use the gates and remove his weights mid fight if he were to still be wearing them.I wouldn't know. I don't know the pressure points of the body like Haku was said to. It doesn't seem farfetched at all to assume that there would be points all over the body that can do things though, including points in the arms, legs, back, front, top, bottom, left, right, etc. that can weaken body movements, limiting the body's movements. Whether Lee can block and dodge to prevent those points from getting hit if he even knows where they are is arguable, especially if he hasn't been able to take off his weights yet.

That's where the gates come in. The point is that Lee would not stand there like a dumbbell and keep getting hit like Sasuke and Naruto did.

WOW! Sort of like how Lee's speed is increased without the weights and with the gates opened.Do you even know my position in who would win if this were an all out fight? Your overzealousness apparently caused you to overlook the fact that I clearly made Lee to be the winner if he released a few Gates.

[Murderous Intent]

When lee would open 5 of his gates haku wouldnt stand a chance. The speed he moves at is just too much for haku. Even when haku would trap him in his/her mirrors I dont think the result would change. Lee is far too strong and fast to be kept in there when he opened his five gates.

[Harlita]

Did we ever see Haku fight with something other than needles? Sure they were his weapon of choice, but he was also toying with Naruto and Sasuke.


We don't know what he would have been like if truly trying to kill - by the time he'd started getting really serious, Naruto went all kyuubi and blew the place up.


I love it when Naruto does that.

Anyways, basically what I'm wondering is, if one of things being stated is that the needles won't do much damage to Lee, what is Haku was using something else then?

Kunai? Shuriken? Wooden log? >.> they seem to be everywhere in this series :laugh

[Murderous Intent]

I think when haku would have taken the fight seriously and when he wouldnt be as soft as he was, he would have killed both sasuke and naruto in the beginning of the fight already.

But I do not think haku would stand a chance against rock lee. Just watch the fight of rock lee versus gaara again and you'll see what i mean.

[Enter Shikari]

I think when haku would have taken the fight seriously and when he wouldnt be as soft as he was, he would have killed both sasuke and naruto in the beginning of the fight already.

But I do not think haku would stand a chance against rock lee. Just watch the fight of rock lee versus gaara again and you'll see what i mean.
_o_
I'm sure Haku will pwn Rock Lee in the beginning, because Lee doesn't know how the mirrors work. But when he gets in a life-threatening situation, he will probably open a few gates and crush Haku and his mirrors.

[Believe It!]

Straw man much?

No, I use straw men correctly. That was a case of flipping your point around and using it as an extreme to show the point's own illogic.

I forgot the differences in the dub during this arc compared to the sub I watched. So, yes, in the dub, it seems clear that Zabuza meant that Haku was going as fast and needed the Mirrors. In the sub, it just seems like he's telling Haku to stop playing around/underestimating Sasuke. In any case, Haku's base speed really doesn't matter much.

Yes it does, because Haku would have to start the fight at her primary speed without the mirrors.

Uh, I have no doubt that the Chidori can cut through sand spikes and kunai. The user, however, is still susceptible to getting hit by those, so, yes, speed and reactions are required to avoid those. So? The guards I was talking about were shields, armor, and blocks (arms and legs).

Speed has nothing to do with be able to create or preform the attack, just getting past the opponent's guard or getting close enough to them to deliver the attack. Zabuza was stationary when Kakashi tried to hit him with it, and failed. So Kakashi was not moving at a fast speed when he used the attack.

Um, no. I said/meant it was high-speed so that opponents were less likely to dodge; it doesn't matter whether the opponent can move or not.

But the Lightning Blade has nothing to do with how fast the person is. That is left up to the chakra gates or taijutsu training. In other words, it does not determine how fast the person is. Believe it!

Okay... Regardless of whether you agree with the reason, he still used it to try to finish the fight ASAP, meaning he would more than likely go at it at top speed.

No, he wasn't trying to finish it ASAP. If he wanted to do that he would have had his dogs rip Zabuza apart and he would have ran to help Naruto and Sasuke. He had a different reason for using it and I don't want to get into it.

It shouldn't even really be a question about whether Kakashi can be as fast as Lee without weights, too.

That is not the question. The question is if Kakashi was as fast as Lee at the point in time when he tried to hit Zabuza with the LB and Haku got in the way of that. The answer is no, because Kakashi was not required to move that fast since Zabuza was being held in place.

Oh yeah, I forgot you were there with a radar gun to measure Kakashi's speed and also at the Chuunin exams to measure Lee's speed. My bad.

Okay, you obviously need to watch the episode again, so, here you go.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=b7_V7NTjrrQ

8:15

Kakashi took like 10 steps to get to Zabuza and he was not moving at Lee's speed even with the weights. Had he been moving at weightless Lee speed, it would have been an instant movement. In fact, another way to tell that this all happened at normal speed is to consider how long it took for Haku's ice mirror to form beside Zabuza. Lee would have been faster than the time it took for the mirror to form, therefore Kakashi was slower than Lee at that point.

That should be enough PROOF even for you to accept. Kakshi did not move as fast as Lee.

Read my first post in this topic. Lee doesn't take off his weights or use his Gates before every fight. More than likely Haku would use the Mirrors before Lee does either. It seems apparent that they usually wait to see what a jutsu does rather than trying to interrupt it; Lee would probably wait for all the Mirrors.

I say he would anticipate the move and try to escape the mirrors before they could be completely formed, or at least remove his weights as a precaution.

I wouldn't know. I don't know the pressure points of the body like Haku was said to. It doesn't seem farfetched at all to assume that there would be points all over the body that can do things though, including points in the arms, legs, back, front, top, bottom, left, right, etc. that can weaken body movements, limiting the body's movements. Whether Lee can block and dodge to prevent those points from getting hit if he even knows where they are is arguable, especially if he hasn't been able to take off his weights yet.

His weights only restrict his legs, not his arms. He would be able to use his arms to block the needles.

Do you even know my position in who would win if this were an all out fight? Your overzealousness apparently caused you to overlook the fact that I clearly made Lee to be the winner if he released a few Gates.

I know, but you were also saying some things that weren't correct.

Did we ever see Haku fight with something other than needles? Sure they were his weapon of choice, but he was also toying with Naruto and Sasuke.

Yes. She has fought with large ice shards, though not by choice. She has fought with water using the Thousand Needles of Death. She also seemed to have experience with samurai swords, though she did not use them to inflict damage, just keep two knucklehead ronin at bay.

if one of things being stated is that the needles won't do much damage to Lee, what is Haku was using something else then?

She could use ice shards, though they may not be as fast as needles they would do more damage.

[starblade876]

No, I use straw men correctly. That was a case of flipping your point around and using it as an extreme to show the point's own illogic.Sorry, you didn't. I said Haku may have been holding back, which is possible since we know he did; we'd have a dead Sasuke if he didn't.

Yes it does, because Haku would have to start the fight at her primary speed without the mirrors."Much at all". I never claimed that Haku's base speed might be faster than Lee with weights and I'd definitely argue otherwise if someone claimed that. Even if Haku were as fast as Lee with weights, it would easily become apparent to him that Lee is much stronger than he is, which should prompt him to use his Mirrors. That's why it doesn't really matter much at all.

Speed has nothing to do with be able to create or preform the attack, just getting past the opponent's guard or getting close enough to them to deliver the attack. Zabuza was stationary when Kakashi tried to hit him with it, and failed. So Kakashi was not moving at a fast speed when he used the attack.

But the Lightning Blade has nothing to do with how fast the person is. That is left up to the chakra gates or taijutsu training. In other words, it does not determine how fast the person is. Believe it!Highly arguable. High speed seems to be one of the requirements of learning the Chidori.

No, he wasn't trying to finish it ASAP. If he wanted to do that he would have had his dogs rip Zabuza apart and he would have ran to help Naruto and Sasuke. He had a different reason for using it and I don't want to get into it.Look at episode 17 again. Unless I'm misinterpreting cutting the "fun" short and asking the next move to be the last, he wanted to finish the fight ASAP. So, you're going to have to go ahead and "reveal" this reason hidden under layers and layers of observations and gun jumping.

That is not the question. The question is if Kakashi was as fast as Lee at the point in time when he tried to hit Zabuza with the LB and Haku got in the way of that. The answer is no, because Kakashi was not required to move that fast since Zabuza was being held in place.

Okay, you obviously need to watch the episode again, so, here you go.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=b7_V7NTjrrQ

8:15

Kakashi took like 10 steps to get to Zabuza and he was not moving at Lee's speed even with the weights. Had he been moving at weightless Lee speed, it would have been an instant movement. In fact, another way to tell that this all happened at normal speed is to consider how long it took for Haku's ice mirror to form beside Zabuza. Lee would have been faster than the time it took for the mirror to form, therefore Kakashi was slower than Lee at that point.

That should be enough PROOF even for you to accept. Kakshi did not move as fast as Lee.I've already brought up the point that time observed by us is not time experienced for them in a different thread. If you look at their positions, Kakashi would have to have taken baby steps to require 10 steps (actually more, including a little jump before) to reach Zabuza. Obviously, it was grossly exaggerated for entertainment. In fact, another thing that you're overlooking or downright ignoring is Kakashi's Sharingan and his reactions. I have no doubt that it would take extreme split-second actions to make Kakashi completely hit the wrong target. It's just not something that happens considering the facts about Kakashi and the Sharingan. Kakashi should've seen the Mirror, anticipated Haku, and gone around Haku to hit Zabuza. Otherwise, the whole reasoning behind the Chidori/Raikiri requiring the Sharingan to be effective doesn't really make the techniques that effective at all. Haku even had time to throw needles at the scroll to cancel the summoning.

I say he would anticipate the move and try to escape the mirrors before they could be completely formed, or at least remove his weights as a precaution.Based on what? Did he remove his weights to fight the reputable Sasuke? Did he remove his weights to fight 3 sound-nin who showed great speed and unknown talents? Did he remove his weights before fighting Gaara? Did Gai tell Lee that he can remove his weights whenever he can guess that his opponent is strong?

His weights only restrict his legs, not his arms. He would be able to use his arms to block the needles.And you don't think there are any points in the arms that can limit arm movement? Remind me what happened to Zabuza's arms before he died. I doubt Lee has knowledge about everything about the body and I doubt Lee can block every place at once.

[Believe It!]

I said Haku may have been holding back, which is possible since we know he did; we'd have a dead Sasuke if he didn't.

If we knew that she held back there would be no "may have", there would only be fact. Plus, you cannot change what part of the fight you are talking about. You began this by talking about mirror-less Haku, not Haku using the mirrors. Yes Haku held back once she was inside the mirrors because Sasuke was no match for her at that point. However, before this when it was just Sasuke and Haku in normal combat, Haku was slower than Sasuke, and Sasuke was slower than Lee. Case closed.

I never claimed that Haku's base speed might be faster than Lee with weights and I'd definitely argue otherwise if someone claimed that.

No you just claimed they were about equal, which was also wrong.

Even if Haku were as fast as Lee with weights, it would easily become apparent to him that Lee is much stronger than he is, which should prompt him to use his Mirrors. That's why it doesn't really matter much at all.

That's if she survived the first set of attacks. There is no point in continuing that issue, since it is a fact that Haku was not nearly as fast as Lee with weights.

Highly arguable. High speed seems to be one of the requirements of learning the Chidori.

Proof? No, it is only a requirement of using it against an opponent who is hard to hit or reach. In any case, THAT DOES NOT MATTER. Kakashi did not use any such speed when trying to hit Zabuza with it!

Look at episode 17 again. Unless I'm misinterpreting cutting the "fun" short and asking the next move to be the last, he wanted to finish the fight ASAP. So, you're going to have to go ahead and "reveal" this reason hidden under layers and layers of observations and gun jumping.

Fine, but you asked for it. You did misinterpret what Kakashi said. Yes he did say that he had to end it quickly, but that was not his intention at all. He only said that to taunt Zabuza. His real objective was to show off to Zabuza even though he knew that he would be dead in a minute anyway. Kakashi used the Lightning Blade because he felt insulted by the "copy cat ninja" comment of Zabuza's. This is why he stated to Zabuza that he would die, but not by sharingan or some imitation of some other ninja's tricks. It was time that he show Zabuza his own jutsu! So the reckless bastard brought out his Lightning Blade to show off his skills to a man who was already defeated! This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that he actually wanted to and DID use such an OVERKILL technique on a defenseless rat like Zabuza.

So in an irresponsible act of petty pride and desire to kill a man using such a powerful jutsu, Kakashi rushed forward to slay Zabuza. He used the Lightning Blade when the only blade he needed was that of a regular kunai. It certainly would have been easier to handle and pull back should he have a reason to abort the attack. So because of Kakashi's damn ego and misuse of power, an innocent girl lost her life instead of the rat that Kakashi was aiming for.

In fact, I say the only reason Haku knew to protect Zabuza was because she felt the chakra of the Lightning Blade in the first place! So it is really all Kakashi's fault that Haku died, because he did not practice the true art of the shinobi. He let his pride and blood lust get the best of him, which is why Kakashi is my least favorite character next to Zabuza. Believe it!

Then to add insult to injury, now there are two children running around with that fatal ability. Sasuke, and Kakashi.

I've already brought up the point that time observed by us is not time experienced for them in a different thread.

That is why I used other factors that took place in that same time frame to prove that Kakashi was not moving as fast as Lee. Kakashi moved slower than an ice mirror forming. That is undeniable proof.

If you look at their positions, Kakashi would have to have taken baby steps to require 10 steps (actually more, including a little jump before) to reach Zabuza. Obviously, it was grossly exaggerated for entertainment.

It is CANON!!! Do you know what "canon" is? Lee's speed without the weights looks like a teleport move.

In fact, another thing that you're overlooking or downright ignoring is Kakashi's Sharingan and his reactions. I have no doubt that it would take extreme split-second actions to make Kakashi completely hit the wrong target.

That could easily be a case of the Lightning Blade having a point of no return. In other words, it may be impossible to hold back after a certain point. Also, we are talking about the speed in which Kakashi ran, not what speed his attack was. Haku obviously got right in front of it just in time, but that was after Kakashi was through running.

It's just not something that happens considering the facts about Kakashi and the Sharingan. Kakashi should've seen the Mirror, anticipated Haku, and gone around Haku to hit Zabuza.

But he didn't. He didn't see the mirror, he didn't see Haku until it was far too late, and he did not go around her despite this "speed" you think he used.

Otherwise, the whole reasoning behind the Chidori/Raikiri requiring the Sharingan to be effective doesn't really make the techniques that effective at all. Haku even had time to throw needles at the scroll to cancel the summoning.

She did that one her way there! Baka!

Based on what? Did he remove his weights to fight the reputable Sasuke?

No, because he knew that Sasuke could not beat him with sharingan. Plus, Sasuke was not using any other jutsu.

Did he remove his weights to fight 3 sound-nin who showed great speed and unknown talents? Did he remove his weights before fighting Gaara?

That is not the issue. In a vs. battle we measure each character's abilities and pit them against the abilities of the other character.

And you don't think there are any points in the arms that can limit arm movement?

Well I wouldn't imagine Lee using those points on his arm to block the needles with.

Remind me what happened to Zabuza's arms before he died.

The tendons were sliced through by kunai knives.

[MangekyoMaster]

Wrong. The sharingan can track movements, it cannot follow an opponent who moves at light speed. FAST EYES have a better chance at that, which Lee has because he can release the brain's restriction on the muscles.

Your eyes muscles has nothing to do with how clear you can see fast moving objects. Besides Lee doesn't train his eye muscles.

Oh, and Haku is a guy.

[RockGuitarist]

lee could defeat haku easily now if haku was using the demon ice mirrors....you know what screw it it's already been covered.

[MangekyoMaster]

lee could defeat haku easily now if haku was using the demon ice mirrors....you know what screw it it's already been covered.

I suppose Lee could kill Haku using 5 gates, but then he would get sent to permanently to the hospital just like before. Haku has no need to use suicide jutsus.

[animewrestlingdonuts]

Lee most definitly would win :Gaipose :leepose :gailee

[RockGuitarist]

dude i was talking normal circumstances if lee had the weights on with no gates open haku was not using the ice mirrors going her... his fastest lee would win

[MangekyoMaster]

Lee most definitly would win :Gaipose :leepose :gailee

He might if he can actually see Haku move.

[MangekyoMaster]

dude i was talking normal circumstances if lee had the weights on with no gates open haku was not using the ice mirrors going her... his fastest lee would win

I was also talking about Lee with no weights. True Lee is extremely fast. However no one except for people with sharingan can even see Haku. Sasuke could not even do anything against Haku until he got the sharingan.

[RockGuitarist]

true, even if he took of his weights.And lee was fighting haku while haku was using the ice mirrors. Lee could not win, but in normal circumstances, lee would own haku.

[MangekyoMaster]

true even if he took of his weights and was fighting haku while haku was using the ice mirrors lee could not win but normally lee would own haku

can you please put some periods in there?

[MangekyoMaster]

Oh, and Haku is above Jounin level. Zabuza says that Haku is at least as strong as Kakashi. Are you saying that Lee can beat Kakashi?

[RockGuitarist]

true, even if he took of his weights.And lee was fighting haku while haku was using the ice mirrors. Lee could not win, but in normal circumstances, lee would own haku.

is that better

[RockGuitarist]

well if sasuke could beat haku((w/o ice mirrors)) ,after team 7's training with kakashi, and Lee could beat sasuke with weights on..... I don't feel like explaining cause i'm not good at it so, i'll do it an easy way
Kakashi>Lee>Sasuke>Haku

[RockGuitarist]

how bout we leave it there okay i don't want this to break into and argument or anything

[MangekyoMaster]

well if sasuke could beat haku((w/o ice mirrors)) ,after team 7's training with kakashi, and Lee could beat sasuke with weights on..... I don't feel like explaining cause i'm not good at it so, i'll do it an easy way
Kakashi>Lee>Sasuke>Haku

LOL!! Do you seriously think Lee is stronger than Kakashi? Kakashi is a elite Jounin with sharingan, chidori, and better taijutsu than even Lee. How can he even beat Kakashi? Oh and Sasuke lost to Haku.

[RockGuitarist]

I'm going to say this one more time lets leave it at this we've both made good points so lets drop it

[Believe It!]

Your eyes muscles has nothing to do with how clear you can see fast moving objects.

Yes they do, because it is your eye muscles that move your eyes! In order to see something moving as fast as Haku you would need fast eye muscles.

Besides Lee doesn't train his eye muscles.

I am talking about the Primary Lotus which releases the brain's restraits on the body's muscles.

Oh, and Haku is a guy.

No, she wasn't. I could prove it to you if the moderators here did not want to keep everyone dumb and blind.

I suppose Lee could kill Haku using 5 gates, but then he would get sent to permanently to the hospital just like before. Haku has no need to use suicide jutsus.

Lee was sent to the hospital because Gaara messed him up, not because of the gates.

However no one except for people with sharingan can even see Haku. Sasuke could not even do anything against Haku until he got the sharingan.

The sharingan is not needed to see Haku move. All you need are fast eyes.

true, even if he took of his weights.And lee was fighting haku while haku was using the ice mirrors. Lee could not win,

Yes he could, if he used the gates.

Oh, and Haku is above Jounin level. Zabuza says that Haku is at least as strong as Kakashi. Are you saying that Lee can beat Kakashi?

Zabuza did not say that. He said that even if Kakashi could beat him, he would be no match for Haku. That is after Zabuza deals damage to Kakashi and weakens him for his fight with Haku. Plus, that could have been a lie to intimidate Kakashi.

LOL!! Do you seriously think Lee is stronger than Kakashi?

He said "Kakashi > Lee" that means Kakashi is greater than Lee.

> = Greater than. < = Less than.

Oh and Sasuke lost to Haku.

Sasuke beat Haku in physical combat, but she beat him in jutsu combat.

[~M~]

Lee will win hands down agenst haku. (Hakus a girly sauskae wana-b) :P

[MangekyoMaster]

Yes they do, because it is your eye muscles that move your eyes! In order to see something moving as fast as Haku you would need fast eye muscles.

Quoted from Wikipedia:
The visual system in the brain is too slow to process that information if the images are slipping across the retina at more than a few degrees per second (Westheimer and McKee, 1954). Thus, for humans to be able to see while moving, the brain must compensate for the motion of the head by turning the eyes. Another complication for vision in frontal-eyed animals is the development of a small area of the retina with a very high visual acuity. This area is called the fovea, and covers about 2 degrees of visual angle in people. To get a clear view of the world, the brain must turn the eyes so that the image of the object of regard falls on the fovea. Eye movements are thus very important for visual perception, and any failure to make them correctly can lead to serious visual disabilities.

As you can see eye muscles has nothing to do with it.

[~M~]

(p.s) HAKU IS A COMPLETE BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yOU MUST OF WATCHED THE CHUNKY MANGA IF U THINK OTHERWISE!!

[~M~]

How did our topic of lee vs. haku get 2 eye musles anyway

[MangekyoMaster]

How did our topic of lee vs. haku get 2 eye musles anyway

Believe It! discussed about it.

[starblade876]

If we knew that she held back there would be no "may have", there would only be fact. Plus, you cannot change what part of the fight you are talking about. You began this by talking about mirror-less Haku, not Haku using the mirrors. Yes Haku held back once she was inside the mirrors because Sasuke was no match for her at that point. However, before this when it was just Sasuke and Haku in normal combat, Haku was slower than Sasuke, and Sasuke was slower than Lee. Case closed.Are you even trying to comprehend things? I wasn't changing anything; I was talking about the whole fight. The fact that Haku was holding back while he was in the Mirrors and the fact that he didn't take Sasuke seriously at first and the fact that, in the sub I watch, Zabuza seemingly comments on the way Haku is behaving leads me to believe that there's a possibility that Haku may have been holding back before the Mirrors, too. That's all. The fact that no one said Haku was holding back nor that Haku was going all out during that time means that it's not a fact either way and only MAY HAVE happened.

No you just claimed they were about equal, which was also wrong.I merely entertained the possibility. I claimed nothing of the sort. Read carefully.

Proof? No, it is only a requirement of using it against an opponent who is hard to hit or reach. In any case, THAT DOES NOT MATTER. Kakashi did not use any such speed when trying to hit Zabuza with it!I took the liberty of bolding a couple parts for you.This jutsu is Kakashi's only original technique, though he now uses an S-ranked version known as the Lightning Blade. He created it around the time he was promoted to Jonin, and later taught it to Sasuke. This jutsu channels a large amount of chakra into the user's arm. The amount of chakra is so great that it becomes visible to the naked eye. The technique actually alters the nature of the user's chakra, effectively converting it into electricity. As a side effect of the conversion process, the large amount of chakra, and the speed at which the user moves, this technique makes a loud noise similar to many birds chirping, hence the name (if the user is not in motion, it merely makes an electric crackling sound). Once the technique is completed, the user charges forward and stabs their enemy with it. The amount of thrust combined with the large concentration of chakra allows the user to stab through almost anything; as such it is usually fatal to the enemy. This technique is classified as an assassination technique because of the speed at which it is performed, despite the loud noise it produces.In episode 67, referring to Kakashi's training of Sasuke, Gai says, "I see. That's what you were doing all this time. You were building his speed up for the level required." To which, grinning, Kakashi replies, "Exactly."

Fine, but you asked for it. You did misinterpret what Kakashi said. Yes he did say that he had to end it quickly, but that was not his intention at all. He only said that to taunt Zabuza. His real objective was to show off to Zabuza even though he knew that he would be dead in a minute anyway. Kakashi used the Lightning Blade because he felt insulted by the "copy cat ninja" comment of Zabuza's. This is why he stated to Zabuza that he would die, but not by sharingan or some imitation of some other ninja's tricks. It was time that he show Zabuza his own jutsu! So the reckless bastard brought out his Lightning Blade to show off his skills to a man who was already defeated! This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that he actually wanted to and DID use such an OVERKILL technique on a defenseless rat like Zabuza.

So in an irresponsible act of petty pride and desire to kill a man using such a powerful jutsu, Kakashi rushed forward to slay Zabuza. He used the Lightning Blade when the only blade he needed was that of a regular kunai. It certainly would have been easier to handle and pull back should he have a reason to abort the attack. So because of Kakashi's damn ego and misuse of power, an innocent girl lost her life instead of the rat that Kakashi was aiming for.

In fact, I say the only reason Haku knew to protect Zabuza was because she felt the chakra of the Lightning Blade in the first place! So it is really all Kakashi's fault that Haku died, because he did not practice the true art of the shinobi. He let his pride and blood lust get the best of him, which is why Kakashi is my least favorite character next to Zabuza. Believe it!

Then to add insult to injury, now there are two children running around with that fatal ability. Sasuke, and Kakashi.Wow. That's some opinion you got there. Forget about the fact of the success rate of the Chidori/Raikiri and the quickness in both execution and resulting death. Anyway, there's still no taking away the fact that he knew (and we knew since the first episode) that he needed to make sure that Naruto was okay and the seal didn't break. Besides that, overkill seems necessary to make sure that a ninja like Zabuza wouldn't do anything to interfere should Kakashi need to concentrate on Naruto.

It is CANON!!! Do you know what "canon" is? Lee's speed without the weights looks like a teleport move.Do you? Lee's speed looks like teleporting because of EXAGGERATION FOR ENTERTAINMENT. It wouldn't look nearly as good if we were able to see him and we wouldn't have been as amazed at his speed. Remember when Lee was fighting Sasuke before the Chuunin Exam? I believe that looked plenty like teleporting, too.

That is why I used other factors that took place in that same time frame to prove that Kakashi was not moving as fast as Lee. Kakashi moved slower than an ice mirror forming. That is undeniable proof.

That could easily be a case of the Lightning Blade having a point of no return. In other words, it may be impossible to hold back after a certain point. Also, we are talking about the speed in which Kakashi ran, not what speed his attack was. Haku obviously got right in front of it just in time, but that was after Kakashi was through running.

But he didn't. He didn't see the mirror, he didn't see Haku until it was far too late, and he did not go around her despite this "speed" you think he used.

She did that one her way there! Baka!Miss the point much? I have no doubt that Kakashi, even at that point in the story, can be as fast if not faster than Lee without weights. If he were going slow (or definitely not his fastest) and Haku were not as fast as Lee without weights, he would have been able to see the Mirror forming, Haku coming out of the Mirror, go around Haku, and hit Zabuza OR, at the very least, try to make the hit on Haku non-fatal. The Sharingan is supposed to predict movements and other things to allow the Chidori/Raikiri user, who requires high-speed comparable to Lee, to SEE and ADJUST accordingly. I'm saying the Mirror formed faster than what we saw and Haku traveled fast enough to surprise a Sharingan user with a highly experienced eye. Kakashi did not look like he was having trouble keeping up with Lee's movements without his weights, but he couldn't see a slower moving Haku and adjust?

That is not the issue. In a vs. battle we measure each character's abilities and pit them against the abilities of the other character.This isn't any of the Naruto video games. In a battle between two characters, the character's self (personality, intelligence, etc.) should factor in, as well, which, in the case of Lee, includes the restrictions Gai gave him on when to take off the weights and release Gates.

Well I wouldn't imagine Lee using those points on his arm to block the needles with.Would he block those points? If so, don't you think that would leave other points open? Arms, legs, torso, neck, back, etc. How will Lee protect all these things generously assuming he knows where they are? You don't seem to understand how dangerous the Mirrors are.

The tendons were sliced through by kunai knives.I believe his arms were stabbed. I don't recall slicing motions.

[Murderous Intent]

ahahaah you need fast eye muscles to keep up with someone who is fast, class!!smile-big

[united]

lee wins. with the 5 gates open haku looks like a snale.

[Haku_loves_Emina]

Heck!!! of course Haku!!!!! no one else... but he dead though,, how will he do that???

[MangekyoMaster]

Gates are extremely unpractical. When Lee used only 1 gate, he suffered enormous pain. With 3,4,5 gates Lee wouldn't be able to fight for months. On the other hand Haku has a killer move that he can use everyday, with little side effects.

[nightmarenny]

Haku wins. Lee's speed means nothing once he's in the Ice Mirrors. Haku's speed becomes Light-speed. He simply can't beat that. His best bet would be to let the gates go. However it would takee time to effectivly break the mirrors. After that he would be to exausted and get hit by what ever else Haku has.

[~M~]

Rock Lee would whoop Haku, because look at what naruto. All lee would have to do is open a few gates and *Poof!* hakus dead.......3 secounds flat...


:burnkk (It would be kinda like this..)

[PradaBrada]

Haku's seriously underestimated here.
Although Lee wins.

[MangekyoMaster]

Rock Lee would whoop Haku, because look at what naruto. All lee would have to do is open a few gates and *Poof!* hakus dead.......3 secounds flat...


:burnkk (It would be kinda like this..)

Please, Naruto used the power of the nine tailed fox, the most powerful being in the Naruto world.

[PradaBrada]

wrong, Gai>Kyuubi

[Chopper]

Lee will pwn Haku. ^^

[MangekyoMaster]

Lee is extremely overestimated.

[PradaBrada]

Haku, if he lived, would've been Kage level around 18.

[Master_of_the_Spoons]

Haku...no doubt.

[animewrestlingdonuts]

H-Le...wait...umm...Haku :haku sorry Lee :leepose

[Tempest]

Lee with Gates or Haku with Mirrors?

Lee takes this one.

Look at the damage he could do to someone, hitting at speeds like that. It was just unfortunate that Lee was matched up with Gaara. Gaara has his automatic sandshield along with his sand armor...

Lee would break those mirrors and break Haku`s face before Haku could even say senbon needle. Seriously. I mean if a Kyuubi chakra Naruto couldn`t be touched by Haku, then a 5 Gated Lee wouldn`t even be seen, let alone touched.

[kimisasu]

what wassthe ? again..lol..(lmfao)

[nightmarenny]

Lee with Gates or Haku with Mirrors?

Lee takes this one.

Look at the damage he could do to someone, hitting at speeds like that. It was just unfortunate that Lee was matched up with Gaara. Gaara has his automatic sandshield along with his sand armor...

Lee would break those mirrors and break Haku`s face before Haku could even say senbon needle. Seriously. I mean if a Kyuubi chakra Naruto couldn`t be touched by Haku, then a 5 Gated Lee wouldn`t even be seen, let alone touched.

How exactly does he break those mirrors? Fire couldn't melt them, nor the others phisical strength. BUll.

[natwel]

Haku, don't ask.

[Believe It!]

Quoted from Wikipedia: The visual system in the brain is too slow to process that information if the images are slipping across the retina at more than a few degrees per second (Westheimer and McKee, 1954). Thus, for humans to be able to see while moving, the brain must compensate for the motion of the head by turning the eyes. Another complication for vision in frontal-eyed animals is the development of a small area of the retina with a very high visual acuity. This area is called the fovea, and covers about 2 degrees of visual angle in people. To get a clear view of the world, the brain must turn the eyes so that the image of the object of regard falls on the fovea. Eye movements are thus very important for visual perception, and any failure to make them correctly can lead to serious visual disabilities.

As you can see eye muscles has nothing to do with it.

As you can see, your own source disproves you. Believe it!

(p.s) HAKU IS A COMPLETE BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yOU MUST OF WATCHED THE CHUNKY MANGA IF U THINK OTHERWISE!!

No, she was a girl.

Are you even trying to comprehend things? I wasn't changing anything; I was talking about the whole fight.

I quoted you referring only to weighted Lee and mirror-less Haku. Admit you were wrong and move on.

The fact that Haku was holding back while he was in the Mirrors and the fact that he didn't take Sasuke seriously at first and the fact that, in the sub I watch, Zabuza seemingly comments on the way Haku is behaving leads me to believe that there's a possibility that Haku may have been holding back before the Mirrors, too. That's all.

I proved you wrong on that too.

The fact that no one said Haku was holding back nor that Haku was going all out during that time means that it's not a fact either way and only MAY HAVE happened.

The series did show that Haku was not holding back BEFORE the mirror jutsu and was AFTER the mirror jutsu.

I merely entertained the possibility. I claimed nothing of the sort. Read carefully.

I am not going to reread what I already know you said. I disproved you, and now you have admitted that they were not close to being equal. Good. Moving on.

From Wikipedia: This jutsu is Kakashi's -spoiler omitted- and later taught it to Sasuke. This jutsu channels a large amount of chakra into the user's arm. The amount of chakra is so great that it becomes visible to the naked eye. The technique actually alters the nature of the user's chakra, effectively converting it into electricity. As a side effect of the conversion process, the large amount of chakra, and the speed at which the user moves, this technique makes a loud noise similar to many birds chirping, hence the name (if the user is not in motion, it merely makes an electric crackling sound).

Okay, besides the fact that there are other incorrect things here, this saying nothing about the Lightning Blade making the user any faster. It merely stated that the speed at which the user moves affects the jutsu.

Once the technique is completed, the user charges forward and stabs their enemy with it. The amount of thrust combined with the large concentration of chakra allows the user to stab through almost anything; as such it is usually fatal to the enemy. This technique is classified as -spoiler omitted- because of the speed at which it is performed, despite the loud noise it produces.

Again, this is incorrect information because it refers to instances where the Blade was used at a quick speed. That does not refer to the jutsu making the user faster or that speed is necessary in order to use the jutsu.

And now, to prove you wrong again, Sasuke used the Chidori while stationary. His first attack broke through Gaara's sand shield and the second was to get his sand shield to let him go. At that time Sasuke simply zapped Gaara again while stationary.

In episode 67, referring to Kakashi's training of Sasuke, Gai says, "I see. That's what you were doing all this time. You were building his speed up for the level required." To which, grinning, Kakashi replies, "Exactly."

Required for WHAT? They don't say! The speed was required to dodge attacks and get in close enough to deliver the attack. Plus, this also disproves you in a sense. If the Blade increased the user's speed, then Kakashi would not have had to train Sasuke to be faster in the first place.

Wow. That's some opinion you got there. Forget about the fact of the success rate of the Chidori/Raikiri and the quickness in both execution and resulting death.

Success rate? The first time it was used it hit the WRONG TARGET, and when Sasuke used it he failed to kill Gaara with it! The Blade is 0 for 2 so far.

And yes, forget about the Lightning Blade. It was not needed, but he used it anyway because he was an ego-maniac. Yet, wasn't he the one who said to preserve chakra during battle and never show an opponent your jutsu?!?!? Hypocritical bastard.

Anyway, there's still no taking away the fact that he knew (and we knew since the first episode) that he needed to make sure that Naruto was okay and the seal didn't break.

And he also said there was time because the seal only weakened a bit allowing some of the nine tail chakra to seep through, but that the seal was not broken. By the way, I already disproved you on this. Kakashi was not trying to end anything quickly. If he had been he would have had his dogs kill Zabuza or he would have put a kunai through his eye.

Besides that, overkill seems necessary to make sure that a ninja like Zabuza wouldn't do anything to interfere should Kakashi need to concentrate on Naruto.

No, just plain old regular kill would have done just fine, and BETTER than the alternative overkill did (which did not actually work).

Do you? Lee's speed looks like teleporting because of EXAGGERATION FOR ENTERTAINMENT.

Nooooo it wasn't. We saw what Gaara saw, which was nothing. Lee was moving that fast. When we see a fast moving object at normal speed it is always with the Dragonball Z background of bluring lights and scenery.

Remember when Lee was fighting Sasuke before the Chuunin Exam? I believe that looked plenty like teleporting, too.

Because we were viewing normal time. If we view normal time and Lee teleports, it means he was moving very fast. If we see him moving at normal speed while everyone else is in slow motion, we are seeing time move slowly.

I guess you would just have to understand the concept of distance ÷ time = rate. I don't know what else to tell you.

[Believe It!]

Miss the point much? I have no doubt that Kakashi, even at that point in the story, can be as fast if not faster than Lee without weights. If he were going slow (or definitely not his fastest) and Haku were not as fast as Lee without weights, he would have been able to see the Mirror forming,

Stop. Kakashi's speed had nothing to do with his peripheral vision or lackthereof.

Haku coming out of the Mirror, go around Haku, and hit Zabuza OR, at the very least, try to make the hit on Haku non-fatal. The Sharingan is supposed to predict movements and other things to allow the Chidori/Raikiri user, who requires high-speed comparable to Lee, to SEE and ADJUST accordingly.

Kakashi did not see the mirror form, and Haku may not have come through the mirror. Rather she may have used it as a second point to teleport herself to from a mirror she formed off-screen. The manga shows a form that is like Haku moving toward the mirror that formed next to Zabuza, not coming from it. So she may have stopped herself before reaching the mirror in order to get in front of Kakashi. In fact, that is the most likely option for her since it would take too much time to get to the mirror and then jump out of it. Doing that would only prove that Kakashi was moving REALLY slow with the Lightning Blade.

I'm saying the Mirror formed faster than what we saw

I already disproved you on this point. No doubt it formed faster than the others because she only had to make one at that point on the bridge, but is obvious that it formed faster than Kakashi was running to Zabuza, thus Kakashi was not moving anywhere near as fast as Lee did. This was the same problem that Sasuke ran into with Lee. Kakashi may have been able to see Haku get in the way, but his body could not keep up with his eyes.

and Haku traveled fast enough to surprise a Sharingan user with a highly experienced eye. Kakashi did not look like he was having trouble keeping up with Lee's movements without his weights, but he couldn't see a slower moving Haku and adjust?

Again, the Blade may have a point of no return where Kakashi could not hold his attack back. Plus, if Kakashi was focused on Zabuza, then of course he would not see Haku come in from the side. Or perhaps he thought he could hit Zabuza before Haku got there. In any case, he did not move as fast as Lee when getting to Zabuza.

This isn't any of the Naruto video games. In a battle between two characters, the character's self (personality, intelligence, etc.) should factor in, as well, which, in the case of Lee, includes the restrictions Gai gave him on when to take off the weights and release Gates.

No they don't factor in. If they did, then Haku would lose because of her unwillingness to kill anyone.

Would he block those points? If so, don't you think that would leave other points open?

I would think he would want to block needles flying at his eyes and jugular vein, yes. It would leave some point open sure, but if needles come flying that those points then Lee can block those next.

Arms, legs, torso, neck, back, etc. How will Lee protect all these things generously assuming he knows where they are? You don't seem to understand how dangerous the Mirrors are.

You don't seem to understand the fact that Lee can move faster than needles.

I believe his arms were stabbed. I don't recall slicing motions.

Tendon's are inside the arms. They help control arm movement. Zabuza could not move his arms because his tendons or perhaps muscles had been sliced by the kunai which was used in a stabbing motion. Just because it was a stab does not mean that it did not slice through the flesh as it went into the arm.

ahahaah you need fast eye muscles to keep up with someone who is fast, class!!

Believe it!

Gates are extremely unpractical. When Lee used only 1 gate, he suffered enormous pain.

Not so. The first and second gates are easy to open and control. It is the driving force behind the Primary Lotus.

With 3,4,5 gates Lee wouldn't be able to fight for months.

He would use that time to smash the mirrors quickly.

On the other hand Haku has a killer move that he can use everyday, with little side effects.

Except it drains chakra. Eventually Haku would lose too much chakra trying to keep up with Lee's speed and his ability to smash the mirrors and she would have to leave the mirrors after each one breaks.

Haku wins. Lee's speed means nothing once he's in the Ice Mirrors. Haku's speed becomes Light-speed.

That is only when traveling within the mirrors. When moving outside she does not move that fast. Plus, the needles do not move that fast outside the mirrors either. Lee would probably seem to be moving at normal speed to Haku inside the mirrors if Lee were to use his speed, and that would make a huge difference in how well Haku could hit her target. Believe it!

He simply can't beat that. His best bet would be to let the gates go. However it would takee time to effectivly break the mirrors. After that he would be to exausted and get hit by what ever else Haku has.

Unless he simply breaks one mirror and then leaves them altogether to get an advantage.

Haku, if he lived, would've been Kage level around 18.

She would have, with the right kind of training (which is the case with a lot of the chuunin). She lacked power and stamina, and her tai and genjutsu sucked.

How exactly does he break those mirrors? Fire couldn't melt them, nor the others phisical strength. BUll.

Actually, Naruto punched one and shattered it, then shattered another one by punching Haku through it.

[MangekyoMaster]

As you can see, your own source disproves you. Believe it!

No, it says that eye movement is important for perception. Not for quick moving objects. It also says movements that are quick enough will seem invisible to your brain, so it doesn't matter how much eye muscles you have. Lee would lose because he wouldn't even see Haku.

[nightmarenny]

Naruto shattered a mirror when going Kyubi. Even Lee couldn't match that.

[Believe It!]

Lee would see Haku because his eyes would be able to lock onto her and follow her because he would be able to move his eyes quickly enough.

[Haku]

i already posted something like this, we already said haku wins!

[Darkadvocate]

Lee would win before Haku got the ice mirrors up. If the mirrors did happen to be put up Lee would still win with gates.

[Haku]

here the site to the first haku vs. lee lots of good info!

http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=172716

[nightmarenny]

Lee would see Haku because his eyes would be able to lock onto her and follow her because he would be able to move his eyes quickly enough.

DUMB. Lee has normal eyes. He can be as fast as he likes it wont help see lightspeed movement.

Heres the thing Lee won't go gates right away or even take off the weights. Thats not how it works. He'd attack at his normal speed and Haku would use his jutsu. Then it would go as I said. You rediculously over estimate lee.

[Haku]

haku a guy people not a girl!!!!!

[Believe It!]

DUMB. Lee has normal eyes. He can be as fast as he likes it wont help see lightspeed movement.

The mirrors only reflect Haku's image, allowing her to transport herself at lightspeed. That only works for her while she is INSIDE the mirrors. When she is outside she does not move at lightspeed. Though she still moves very quickly, that speed can be seen.

Heres the thing Lee won't go gates right away or even take off the weights. Thats not how it works. He'd attack at his normal speed and Haku would use his jutsu. Then it would go as I said. You rediculously over estimate lee.

You don't know that Lee would not take his weights off or not use the gates when he sees that he is outmatched against the mirrors.

haku a guy people not a girl!!!!!

No, we settled this in another topic. She was a girl. Believe it!

[nightmarenny]

The mirrors only reflect Haku's image, allowing her to transport herself at lightspeed. That only works for her while she is INSIDE the mirrors. When she is outside she does not move at lightspeed. Though she still moves very quickly, that speed can be seen.



You don't know that Lee would not take his weights off or not use the gates when he sees that he is outmatched against the mirrors.



No, we settled this in another topic. She was a girl. Believe it!

What? No that was settled because everyone in world knows he's a boy exept you.

Lee doesn't bring out his huge speed untile he needs. Haku would be out matched an use the mirrors than Lee is screwed.

[MangekyoMaster]

Lee would see Haku because his eyes would be able to lock onto her and follow her because he would be able to move his eyes quickly enough.

Get it through your head. It doesn't matter how fast you can turn your head if you can't even see it. Haku's speed is invisible to the brain. Only the sharingan can see it.

[Believe It!]

What? No that was settled because everyone in world knows he's a boy exept you.

No, it was settled because there was undeniable proof posted that Haku was a girl. It was hidden from view because flamers kept trashing the thread in anger of being proved wrong. Believe it!

Lee doesn't bring out his huge speed untile he needs. Haku would be out matched an use the mirrors than Lee is screwed.

Until Lee brings out his huge speed because he would know he would need it at that point.

Get it through your head. It doesn't matter how fast you can turn your head if you can't even see it.

It does matter because you can see it if you can turn your head and eyes as fast as Lee!!!

Haku's speed is invisible to the brain. Only the sharingan can see it.

Wrong on both counts. Lee would be able to see it because he would be able to move his eyes and head fast enough to keep up with Haku's speed. The sharingan cannot see it because the eyes cannot move quickly enough to keep the line of vision on the target. Sasuke could not track Haku as she flew between mirrors, he could only see her movements and her collisions with the water in the air. That is until Haku began to slow down because of depleting chakra.

[Master Shake]

lee . gates and hey maybe drunken yeah ..

[nightmarenny]

No, it was settled because there was undeniable proof posted that Haku was a girl. It was hidden from view because flamers kept trashing the thread in anger of being proved wrong. Believe it!



Until Lee brings out his huge speed because he would know he would need it at that point.



It does matter because you can see it if you can turn your head and eyes as fast as Lee!!!



Wrong on both counts. Lee would be able to see it because he would be able to move his eyes and head fast enough to keep up with Haku's speed. The sharingan cannot see it because the eyes cannot move quickly enough to keep the line of vision on the target. Sasuke could not track Haku as she flew between mirrors, he could only see her movements and her collisions with the water in the air. That is until Haku began to slow down because of depleting chakra.

By that point its too late. Once Lees in the mirrior he can't do anything.

Haku. Is. A. Boy. If you have any real proof post it. If all you have is your first and consecutive posts in that thread you can just StFU. That wasn' proof. That was just iritating bull.

If you say "believe it" one more time I swear to god I will reach through the screen and strangle you.

[MangekyoMaster]

It does matter because you can see it if you can turn your head and eyes as fast as Lee!!!


Zomg, get it through your head!! He's speed is INVISIBLE :mad TO THE BRAIN!!!
It doesn't matter how fast you can turn your head!

Quoted from Wikipeida:
The visual system in the brain is too slow to process that information if the images are slipping across the retina at more than a few degrees per second

[Hokage Naruto]

here the site to the first haku vs. lee lots of good info!

http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=172716

That contains spoilers thats why this wasn't merged or trashed.

[Believe It!]

By that point its too late. Once Lees in the mirrior he can't do anything.

He can still block the needles using his arms and a weapon.

Haku. Is. A. Boy. If you have any real proof post it.

Nothing would make me happier. However, I cannot post it or direct you to the topic where I have posted it because the moderators do not want ANYONE to see the proof. They have their own baseless theory to protect. Believe it!

Zomg, get it through your head!! He's speed is INVISIBLE TO THE BRAIN!!!

It is not invisible to the brain. Nothing states that and you have no reason to believe that. Lee would be able to track Haku because he would be able to keep his eyes on her. He would be able to keep his eyes on her because he can move his eyes very quicky.

Quoted from Wikipeida: The visual system in the brain is too slow to process that information if the images are slipping across the retina at more than a few degrees per second

Right, that means that if Lee keeps his retinas locked on Haku so that her image is not slipping across them at all, he would be able to see her. If you still don't get it, then don't both replying. I am right and you are wrong. The end.

[nightmarenny]

He can still block the needles using his arms and a weapon.



Nothing would make me happier. However, I cannot post it or direct you to the topic where I have posted it because the moderators do not want ANYONE to see the proof. They have their own baseless theory to protect. Believe it!



It is not invisible to the brain. Nothing states that and you have no reason to believe that. Lee would be able to track Haku because he would be able to keep his eyes on her. He would be able to keep his eyes on her because he can move his eyes very quicky.



Right, that means that if Lee keeps his retinas locked on Haku so that her image is not slipping across them at all, he would be able to see her. If you still don't get it, then don't both replying. I am right and you are wrong. The end.

Oh my God. You have to be the most pathetic person ever(thats flaming and I don't care). Seriously, "this baseless non-theory is true but everyone is in a consperacy to keep it quite". Insanity.

When it comes to Lee. No you are wrong. Yes Lee has to keep his eye on Haku that long. Exept she is going Lightspeed. So thats not possible. If it was you could see light instead of through it.

[Haku]

That contains spoilers thats why this wasn't merged or trashed.

true but haku wins by far!!!

Haku>>>>LEE

[MiNaC]

Sorry, Haku. Fuzzy-brows wins. :P

[Comic Book Guy]

Nothing would make me happier. However, I cannot post it or direct you to the topic where I have posted it because the moderators do not want ANYONE to see the proof. They have their own baseless theory to protect. Believe it!

The topic itself is flamebait -- already, other members are being roused in this thread.

So please just leave the topic be, and just concentrate on the vs. thread at hand.

[mystictrunks]

Rock Lee,the gates.

[starblade876]

Seriously, what is up with your inane style of reading/responding? You break up logical flow just to place useless, vacuous comments. You show a high inability to understand different points of view and a high difficulty in comprehending logic.

I quoted you referring only to weighted Lee and mirror-less Haku. Admit you were wrong and move on.Yes, I was referring to weighted Lee and Mirror-less Haku. So? I was referring to the whole fight between Haku and Sasuke for a basis. Based on what we've seen, it's a completely plausible possibility that Haku was not going all out before the Mirrors; in fact, it's clear that he underestimated Sasuke in the beginning. When people underestimate their opponents, they don't usually go all out.

I proved you wrong on that too.Useless comment. You did not prove me wrong.

The series did show that Haku was not holding back BEFORE the mirror jutsu and was AFTER the mirror jutsu.It didn't. It showed Haku underestimating Sasuke and, thus, being caught off guard. It never showed what would happen if he took the fight seriously before the Mirrors without Sasuke having the upperhand.

I am not going to reread what I already know you said. I disproved you, and now you have admitted that they were not close to being equal. Good. Moving on.Either you obviously don't know or understand what I said or you don't know the definition of certain words. You didn't disprove anything.

Okay, besides the fact that there are other incorrect things here, this saying nothing about the Lightning Blade making the user any faster. It merely stated that the speed at which the user moves affects the jutsu.There's nothing incorrect that I can see. Also, I never said it makes the user faster and I have no idea where you got that from. I said or implied that, in order to perform the jutsu, the body must be able to attain a minimum speed (i.e. approximately Lee's speed without weights). It's possibly what Gai meant when he said "physical activation" in episode 67. You seem to need to watch that episode again. He also refers to it as an assassination technique and Kakashi's only original move; I don't know why you thought those were spoilers.

And now, to prove you wrong again, Sasuke used the Chidori while stationary. His first attack broke through Gaara's sand shield and the second was to get his sand shield to let him go. At that time Sasuke simply zapped Gaara again while stationary.So what? Before they thrust, Kakashi and Sasuke are often stationary when they charge up. You've proven nothing.

Required for WHAT? They don't say! The speed was required to dodge attacks and get in close enough to deliver the attack. Plus, this also disproves you in a sense. If the Blade increased the user's speed, then Kakashi would not have had to train Sasuke to be faster in the first place.It's interesting how inexplicit comments in the show happen to favor your arguments and not others' despite how obvious it is in favor of others' and not yours. It's obvious they're talking about the Chidori. Even if they're talking about the speed required to dodge attacks and get close enough, it would only make sense that Kakashi would have had that speed during the fight with Zabuza, which would mean he should have been able to avoid Haku (or not kill him), especially if he weren't going as fast.

Again from episode 67, Gai says, "But, whether called Thousand Birds or Lightning Blade, it's a technique of unimaginable power, requiring almost inhuman levels of speed and chakra."

Success rate? The first time it was used it hit the WRONG TARGET, and when Sasuke used it he failed to kill Gaara with it! The Blade is 0 for 2 so far.It obviously was used before. Gai wouldn't know so much about it if it was new and secret. He also wouldn't have classified it as an assassination technique if it didn't do a good job at assassinating. Besides that, those were obviously unusual circumstances. With Zabuza, it was Haku's incredibly fast speed. With Gaara, it was his incredibly tough defenses and possibly something else. Both cases involved extremely unique characters.

And yes, forget about the Lightning Blade. It was not needed...

And he also said there was time because the seal only weakened a bit allowing some of the nine tail chakra to seep through, but that the seal was not broken. By the way, I already disproved you on this. Kakashi was not trying to end anything quickly. If he had been he would have had his dogs kill Zabuza or he would have put a kunai through his eye.No, it was needed. You don't seem to grasp the threat that someone like Zabuza would be if you don't make sure he's taken care of, especially if Naruto were to go wild and you had 2 genin and a civilian to protect and a highly talented boy to worry about, as well. By the way, you didn't disprove me on it; even if Kakashi was "showing off", it was still a move that had the best chance of ending it quickly and surely. His summon obviously had an easy weakness (a few senbon cancelled it). A kunai through the eye would more than likely not have been as quick and sure as a Raikiri through the heart.

Nooooo it wasn't. We saw what Gaara saw, which was nothing. Lee was moving that fast. When we see a fast moving object at normal speed it is always with the Dragonball Z background of bluring lights and scenery.

Because we were viewing normal time. If we view normal time and Lee teleports, it means he was moving very fast. If we see him moving at normal speed while everyone else is in slow motion, we are seeing time move slowly.There were plenty of times when we couldn't see Haku. When Naruto sent a bunch of Shadow Clones up, they appear moving in extremely slow motion (much slower than Gaara) and sometimes not moving at all.

Also, about the DBZ-like thing: do you mean like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/starblade876/7b48629b.jpg?

Stop. Kakashi's speed had nothing to do with his peripheral vision or lackthereof.Pointless interruption, which seems to have caused you to miss the point once more.

Kakashi did not see the mirror form, and Haku may not have come through the mirror. Rather she may have used it as a second point to teleport herself to from a mirror she formed off-screen... Doing [otherwise] would only prove that Kakashi was moving REALLY slow with the Lightning Blade.Even Zabuza didn't see the Mirror forming apparently. Again, if Kakashi weren't going at full speed, it would mean he would have had the ability to dodge things. Again, the reason why the Sharingan is necessary for the Chidori/Raikiri to be useful is because it helps the user avoid obstacles. Again, if the Mirror didn't form fast and Haku didn't travel fast and Kakashi didn't travel fast, Kakashi would have seen the Mirror and anticipated something and done something.

I would agree that Haku probably didn't go into the Mirror based on the collision that sent a shockwave all the way to Sakura and Tazuna, but, if he did, it would only support that Kakashi was going fast because, otherwise, he would have had even more time and signs to avoid it if they were going as slow as you seem to think.

I already disproved you on this point. No doubt it formed faster than the others because she only had to make one at that point on the bridge, but is obvious that it formed faster than Kakashi was running to Zabuza, thus Kakashi was not moving anywhere near as fast as Lee did. This was the same problem that Sasuke ran into with Lee. Kakashi may have been able to see Haku get in the way, but his body could not keep up with his eyes.No, that's a jump to a conclusion without knowledge (or with ignorance) of the relative speeds involved. It formed faster than Kakashi was running to Zabuza and, therefore, it formed faster than Lee and Haku traveled faster than Lee.

Again, the Blade may have a point of no return where Kakashi could not hold his attack back. Plus, if Kakashi was focused on Zabuza, then of course he would not see Haku come in from the side. Or perhaps he thought he could hit Zabuza before Haku got there. In any case, he did not move as fast as Lee when getting to Zabuza.The point of having the Sharingan for the Chidori/Raikiri is to predict movement in the field of vision, not just the Zabuza's body; it does not exclude things around the target. It wouldn't be of much help at all otherwise.

No they don't factor in. If they did, then Haku would lose because of her unwillingness to kill anyone.Again, your overzealousness has caused you to overlook the fact that I already accounted for Haku's personality in my first post.

I would think he would want to block needles flying at his eyes and jugular vein, yes. It would leave some point open sure, but if needles come flying that those points then Lee can block those next.Watch the Haku/Naruto/Sasuke fight again. Haku aimed for Sasuke's leg and it was enough to limit his movement.

You don't seem to understand the fact that Lee can move faster than needles.You don't seem to understand that Lee doesn't have the eyes to see all of the senbon if it seemed as if they were coming from all around. It doesn't matter if he's faster than them; Haku would be faster.

Tendon's are inside the arms. They help control arm movement. Zabuza could not move his arms because his tendons or perhaps muscles had been sliced by the kunai which was used in a stabbing motion. Just because it was a stab does not mean that it did not slice through the flesh as it went into the arm.So... You don't think Haku can aim for tendons? Even though he just uses senbon, it doesn't mean it won't have a limiting effect.

[Believe It!]

The topic itself is flamebait -- already, other members are being roused in this thread.

So please just leave the topic be, and just concentrate on the vs. thread at hand.

No, the topic had flamers in it, and you FAILED to uphold the forum rules by repremanding those flamers because you yourself are biased against the proof that Haku was a girl.

Yes, I was referring to weighted Lee and Mirror-less Haku. So?

So you were wrong to say they would be equal in speed.

Based on what we've seen, it's a completely plausible possibility that Haku was not going all out before the Mirrors

Then you have not seen much of that part of the series. I proved you wrong on this. Zabuza was stunned that Sasuke was faster than Haku, and who knew Haku better than anyone? Just admit to being wrong and take your lumps like a man.

Useless comment. You did not prove me wrong.

Denial.

It showed Haku underestimating Sasuke

Wrong. That is your baseless misinterpretation.

There's nothing incorrect that I can see. Also, I never said it makes the user faster and I have no idea where you got that from.

Perhaps I got it from the post where you said Kakashi was moving as fast as Lee was without the weights because Sasuke learned to be as fast as Lee when he used the Chidori. Baseless assumption drawn from irrelevant and incorrect facts.

I said or implied that, in order to perform the jutsu, the body must be able to attain a minimum speed (i.e. approximately Lee's speed without weights).

Yeah right. Even if you had said that the first time and even if that were based on something canon, that still does not prove that Kakashi used that speed to hit a stationary target.

So what? Before they thrust, Kakashi and Sasuke are often stationary when they charge up. You've proven nothing.

Well now I see why you cannot admit to Haku being a girl, or even that it is likely, since you cannot even admit to CLEAR and OBVIOUS FACTS! Sasuke did not have to move fast to use the jutsu. You have been proven wrong by facts. You are simply too hardheaded to admit to being wrong... about ANYthing.

Even if they're talking about the speed required to dodge attacks and get close enough, it would only make sense that Kakashi would have had that speed during the fight with Zabuza, which would mean he should have been able to avoid Haku (or not kill him), especially if he weren't going as fast.

He could not because he was not using that quick speed. In other words, he was not moving like Lee. Remember that who speech about the brain's restrictions on the muscles? Kakashi could not hold the attack back because his brain still had restrictions on the muscles, OR he simply did not see Haku jump in front of the attack until after he hit her with it.

I do not doubt that Kakashi could move as fast as Lee during his fight with Zabuza, but the fact is that he did not use that kind of speed during that fight. Therefore you have nothing to compare Haku to in order to match her up with Lee's speed.

Again from episode 67, Gai says, "But, whether called Thousand Birds or Lightning Blade, it's a technique of unimaginable power, requiring almost inhuman levels of speed and chakra."

"The secret lies in the speed of the thrust..." That is what Gai says about the jutsu. It is about the speed of the thrust and the chakra forced into the arm. Moving at high speeds only serves the purpose of getting past someone's guard. That is from the dub.

It obviously was used before. Gai wouldn't know so much about it if it was new and secret.

Oh that's right, it was first used to cut a lightning bolt in half. :Notrust

He also wouldn't have classified it as an assassination technique if it didn't do a good job at assassinating.

It is classified as that because it is a one hit kill technique if used correctly (overkill). This is obvious since REAL assassination techniques cannot be seen or HEARD coming, such as Zabuza's Silent Kill which uses mist and silence to make the victim not even realize that he or she has been killed until after they are already dead!

Besides that, those were obviously unusual circumstances. With Zabuza, it was Haku's incredibly fast speed. With Gaara, it was his incredibly tough defenses and possibly something else. Both cases involved extremely unique characters.

Big deal. Most low level jutsus can kill an opponent who is not unique or as skilled as Haku or Gaara.

No, it was needed. You don't seem to grasp the threat that someone like Zabuza would be if you don't make sure he's taken care of

All that was needed was a kunai. That would have taken care of Zabuza. Case closed.

it was still a move that had the best chance of ending it quickly and surely.

Wrong! A kunai to the brain or being mauled by dogs would have been the best because they could be easily controlled. The Blade takes time to form, which you seem to think Kakashi was short on. You're wrong and the facts prove it. Just admit you are wrong and accept the truth. I will think highly of you if you do. Believe it!

His summon obviously had an easy weakness (a few senbon cancelled it). A kunai through the eye would more than likely not have been as quick and sure as a Raikiri through the heart.

Okay, you aren't even making an attempt to sound smart anymore. Had Kakashi had his dogs rip Zabuza apart, Haku would not have known about Zabuza being in danger in the first place. Plus, the needles being thrown at the scroll would have come at a later point in time. Too late to save Zabuza. A kunai would have ended it twice as fast as the dogs would have. How can you stand being constantly wrong?

There were plenty of times when we couldn't see Haku. When Naruto sent a bunch of Shadow Clones up, they appear moving in extremely slow motion (much slower than Gaara) and sometimes not moving at all.

Right. I never said Lee would be faster than Haku in that case. But he would have if he used the gates.

Also, about the DBZ-like thing: do you mean like this:

Yes, but that does not prove that Kakashi was moving at hyperspeed. The DBZ background sometimes appears even when the character is moving at regular speed, like Kakashi was there.

Again, if Kakashi weren't going at full speed, it would mean he would have had the ability to dodge things.

No it doesn't. He did not see any of it, so he had no reason to dodge anything. He was too focused on killing Zabuza.

Again, the reason why the Sharingan is necessary for the Chidori/Raikiri to be useful is because it helps the user avoid obstacles. Again, if the Mirror didn't form fast and Haku didn't travel fast and Kakashi didn't travel fast, Kakashi would have seen the Mirror and anticipated something and done something.

Baseless assumption and contradictory statement. If Kakashi had been moving fast like Lee, he would have been able to see haku coming and move around her.

[quote=starblade876] No, that's a jump to a conclusion without knowledge (or with ignorance) of the relative speeds involved. It formed faster than Kakashi was running to Zabuza and, therefore, it formed faster than Lee and Haku traveled faster than Lee.

That is an ignorant jump to a baseless conclusion. I know that the mirror formed at a speed slower than it would have taken Lee to get to Zabuza, therefore Kakashi was not moving as fast as Lee. Then there is the fact that Haku's chakra was almost depleted. It would have taken that one mirror time to form because of her low power level.

it does not exclude things around the target. It wouldn't be of much help at all otherwise.

Baseless assumption. Obviously it did or else Haku would not be dead.

Watch the Haku/Naruto/Sasuke fight again. Haku aimed for Sasuke's leg and it was enough to limit his movement.

Sasuke was no match for Lee that that point, so your argument is baseless. Lee may have been able to dodge the needles or fight the effects of one that hit him, unlike Sasuke.

You don't seem to understand that Lee doesn't have the eyes to see all of the senbon if it seemed as if they were coming from all around.

I know that very well. However, Lee would still be able to run around in order to evade the needles. He would run around in the space of the mirrors so that Haku would have to aim at where Lee was going to be next, rather than where he was. Haku would also have to calculate the slow down speed of the needles once they leave the mirrors.

It doesn't matter if he's faster than them; Haku would be faster.

Only inside the mirrors. As soon as she leaves them her speed decreases dramati