Yukishiro Enishi vs Shishio Makoto (RuroKen)

[TheBreakingWheel]

The top 2 villains of Rurouni Kenshin. Who will win?

[Orion]

enishi in nerves of insanity would break shishio in half,he will actually cut people unlike kenshin.

[HugeGuy]

I remembered Saito commented that normal Enishi pales in comparison to Shishio. So it'll definitely take max out Enishi to have a chance against Shishio.

[tri-sapphire]

I remembered Saito commented that normal Enishi pales in comparison to Shishio. So it'll definitely take max out Enishi to have a chance against Shishio.

That was before Kenshin and Enishi began to fight seriously. Enishi hadn't even busted out his watou jutsu at that point.

Anyways, I think that Enishi (even without the nerves) is the stronger of the two. Shishio probably beats him in durability, but such is useless against someone who uses a sword that can actually cut.

I do know that Enishi with the nerves of insanity surpasses even Soujiro in attack and reaction speed, and is almost equal with him in movement speed. So Enishi with the nerves would probably wipe the floor with Makoto Shishio.

I'll post more on this after I reread the Jinchuu arc :sweatdrop. Hopefully then I'll be certain of a verdict.

[Id]

I consider Shishio Makoto superior. But with the strick time limit, hinders his capacity in long term battles.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/8775/kenshinv23c201086xd1.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv23c201086xd1.jpg)

[Orion]

I consider Shishio Makoto superior. But with the strick time limit, hinders his capacity in long term battles.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/8775/kenshinv23c201086xd1.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv23c201086xd1.jpg)

and that was before enishi was even trying though........nerves of insanity enishi would stomp shishio into the ground.

[Id]

and that was before enishi was even trying though........nerves of insanity enishi would stomp shishio into the ground.

Prior to nerves of insanity, both Kenshin and Enishi ware going all out.
Then we see Kenshin go Hitokiri Battosai (for the last time). Enishi was getting his ass handed to him promptly.

I think it was mentioned that even as Hitokiri Battosai, it would still not be enough to defeat Shishio Makoto.

[Orion]

Prior to nerves of insanity, both Kenshin and Enishi ware going all out.
Then we see Kenshin go Hitokiri Battosai (for the last time). Enishi was getting his ass handed to him promptly.

I think it was mentioned that even as Hitokiri Battosai, it would still not be enough to defeat Shishio Makoto.

i dont ever remember that being mentioned,and nerves of insanity enishi still seemed to be the strongest opponent kenshin ever fought.

[Id]

i dont ever remember that being mentioned,and nerves of insanity enishi still seemed to be the strongest opponent kenshin ever fought.

The nerves of insanity carries a great weakness. All of the experienced fighters, (Kenshin, Saito, Aioshi) noticed that weakness. I am sure, Shishio would notice it as well.
Don’t you agree?

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5447/kenshinv28c248014xm7.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv28c248014xm7.jpg)

[Yak]

Prior to nerves of insanity, both Kenshin and Enishi ware going all out.
Then we see Kenshin go Hitokiri Battosai (for the last time). Enishi was getting his ass handed to him promptly.

I think it was mentioned that even as Hitokiri Battosai, it would still not be enough to defeat Shishio Makoto.

Yeah, but Enishi wasn't using his strongest Watou-jutsu techniques at that time on him. He wanted to punish Kenshin, not kill him. That was the whole point of having him witness Kaoru's "death". Though, getting a beat-up from Kenshin didn't take him out for long, it took a few days for him to recover and start trainging again.

When Kenshin was fighting all out against Enishi with nerves of insanity, Enishi was whiping the floor with him. Even Saito then said that Hiten Mitsurugi was useless against him. Kenshin equalled him with his hax move, which Enishi countered by destroying his middle-ear. The final clash was a duel between Amakakeru no Hirameki and Kofuku Zettosai, which Kenshin only one because Enishi's nervous system and ballance was still fucked up and because Kenshin was getting to "new heights" due to him having get rid of his Battosai-guilt trip forever.

Shishio loses this since he neither has the techniques to counter Enishi's moves properly nor has he an ass full of PIS to save him.

[Id]

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1425/kenshinv28c248014hf5.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv28c248014hf5.jpg)


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4005/kenshinv28c248020xn6.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv28c248020xn6.jpg)

[Yak]

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1425/kenshinv28c248014hf5.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv28c248014hf5.jpg)


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4005/kenshinv28c248020xn6.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv28c248020xn6.jpg)

I have the manga at home. Those scans don't prove anything at all. Enishi's only weakness with the nerves of insanity is that his nervous system reacts much more sensitive and with Kenshin's sound technique he overloaded and damaged his ear drum, causing him to lose his balance which seriously fucks him up. It's the same what Dosu did to Lee in the Forest of Death.

Now, does Shishio have this move? No, since he's not a Hiten Mitsurugi user. He probably doesn't even know of it. The only ones who even recognized that Enishi's nerves were extraordinarily trained was Megumi - who happens to be a doctor - and Aoshi, who is a ninja and trained in anatomical things. Saito only suspected that something was odd about Enishi cause his speed and strength leaped suddenly when those things appeared on his face and arms that looked like aterias but actually are nerves.

Shishio is neither a cop, nor a ninja nor a doctor. He is smart but he would need shit luck to even figure out Enishi's weakness. Enishi is not going to hold back and give him 2.000 chances to kill himself or suffer for his deeds in the past cause Enishi cares a fuck about Shishio. Shishio dies, he won't even get the chance of overcoming his 10 minutes limit cause he gets fucked up before that.

[Id]

I have the manga at home. Those scans don't prove anything at all. Enishi's only weakness with the nerves of insanity is that his nervous system reacts much more sensitive and with Kenshin's sound technique he overloaded and damaged his ear drum, causing him to lose his balance which seriously fucks him up. It's the same what Dosu did to Lee in the Forest of Death.

Now, does Shishio have this move? No, since he's not a Hiten Mitsurugi user. He probably doesn't even know of it. The only ones who even recognized that Enishi's nerves were extraordinarily trained was Megumi - who happens to be a doctor - and Aoshi, who is a ninja and trained in anatomical things. Saito only suspected that something was odd about Enishi cause his speed and strength leaped suddenly when those things appeared on his face and arms that looked like aterias but actually are nerves.

Shishio is neither a cop, nor a ninja nor a doctor. He is smart but he would need shit luck to even figure out Enishi's weakness. Enishi is not going to hold back and give him 2.000 chances to kill himself or suffer for his deeds in the past cause Enishi cares a fuck about Shishio. Shishio dies, he won't even get the chance of overcoming his 10 minutes limit cause he gets fucked up before that.

Oh but Kenshin was not a cop, nor a ninja nor a doctor as well...and he figgured out his weakness.

Ah but you are forgetting one thing. Despite Enishi boost in speed and strength it was not enough to overcome Kenshins Ogi.

Even with the nerves of insanity Enish’s speed want enough to over come it.
And Saito does not seem to follow up or relying on a specific sword style.. He seems to use more basic simplistic techniques.

And while we do not see Shisho running up and down with raw speed. He did train, Seta Sojiro. And his reaction time was enough to counter Kenshins Ogi.

As for technique that will be effective aginst nerves of insanity? Well, like I mentioned earlier it didn’t take long for Kenshin to catch up on the weakness. If you want to argue that Shisho in no way can duplicate the sheeting and un-sheeting that kenshin did, (which I don’t see why, he did train Seta after all). Then there is a chance that exploding golve might work on Enishi.


BTW - I rather debate posting scans. If I want to make a point I will make good use of them.

[Yak]

Oh but Kenshin was not a cop, nor a ninja nor a doctor as well...and he figgured out his weakness.

Nope. Enishi explained how he gained the nerves in front of everyone. He even said how he solely focused on Kenshin and was able to see every drop of blood, every grain of sand. Even an idiot would've figured out that the increase in speed, power and perception of surroundings would be due to the nerves if it has been absent all the time without them. Kenshin just needed to combinate this and use his technique.

Again, nothing even implies that Shishio would guess those things to be nerves if Enishi or someone else doesn't explain it to him, even if he figures out on his own, he has not the necessary technique to overcome it in time.



Ah but you are forgetting one thing. Despite Enishi boost in speed and strength it was not enough to overcome Kenshins Ogi.

Kenshin was arguably stronger than in the fight with Shishio since he got rid of his Battosai guilt trip and was freed in his heart and mind. Plus, he had several days of rest before they got to the fight. Against Shishio he had to battle Aoshi and Sojiro first, using the Ama Kakeru no Hirameki two times to win, which puts additional strain to his body when we look aside from the injuries he suffered in those two battles pre-Shishio. In fact, that's what Shishio was setting up, it was part of the plan.

A fully recovered Kenshin without his Battosai guilt shit would've beaten Shishio much easier. Enishi brought a fully recovered Kenshin to the limits of his techniques, to the point where Hiten Mitsurugi had become useless if it hadn't been for the single drawback of the nerves or insanity. Even before Enishi used them, Kenshin didn't get a single effective hit in on him. Enishi had several times of beating him even before he got utterly pissed and used the nerves of insanity. Kenshin was beat up, Enishi gave him enough chances to get up again instead of finishing him right away, like Shishio would've done. He offered him his own sword to kill himself. Kenshin would've been long dead if it hadn't been for the plot induced stupidity.



Even with the nerves of insanity Enish’s speed want enough to over come it.
And Saito does not seem to follow up or relying on a specific sword style.. He seems to use more basic simplistic techniques.

And while we do not see Shisho running up and down with raw speed. He did train, Seta Sojiro. And his reaction time was enough to counter Kenshins Ogi.

That's a fruitless argument since Shishio is neither like Saito nor like Sojiro. Also, the opponent is Enishi here, neither Sojiro nor Saito have fought Enishi. Sojiro was trained by Shishio, does that mean Shishio is exactly like him? He doesn't even have Sojiro's speed and commented several times that the boy was extraordinarily gifted and he had just to shape him properly. Nothing of this suggests Shishio would be able to defeat Enishi.

As for technique that will be effective aginst nerves of insanity? Well, like I mentioned earlier it didn’t take long for Kenshin to catch up on the weakness. If you want to argue that Shisho in no way can duplicate the sheeting and un-sheeting that kenshin did, (which I don’t see why, he did train Seta after all). Then there is a chance that exploding golve might work on Enishi.

Shishio has no technique and Hiten Mitsurugi can't simply be duplicated like that. Even Yahiko who had seen Kenshin fighting countless times couldn't do it right away and the boy is incredibly talented. He made his own fake Hiten techniques in his fight against Henya, yes, but that's not the real thing. Shishio won't figure it out in the midst of a fight against a high-speeded monster that equals or even surpasses him in strength.

As for the gloves - Enishi has a similar resistance to damage compared to both Kenshin and Shishio, especially witht he nerves. He won't die from one Guren Kaina and I doubt he would let himself get hit by a second one. If he gets hit at all. Kenshin, who is slower than Enishi and was in a horribly state in the Shishio fight after the first exploding glove, managed to use the exploding gloves against Shishio himself the second time he tried it on him. Shouldn't be much of a problem for Enishi to do the same.


BTW - I rather debate posting scans. If I want to make a point I will make good use of them.

Why do you need scans? They won't reveal anything new. Or did you not read the manga? Then you should know what happened.

[Kunoichi no Kiri]

If you'll forgive me for posting a rather truncated opinion of the matter - even ignoring the statement from Aoshi and Saito that Enishi was greatly inferior to Shishio (them both being swordmen of the highest caliber, one would assume they could gain SOME inkling of Enishi's might even without him using his most powerful techniques) it was stated several times by Enishi and others that the reason behind Enishi's dominance of Kenshi and his Hiten Mitsurugi is Enishi's intense study of the art and everything that defines Kenshin.

Enishi > Kenshin =/> Shishio

While a high caliber swordsman in his own right, Enishi only competes with Kenshin - most likely the greatest swordsman of his time save Seijuro - with his knowledge of Hiten Mitsurugi's weaknesses. Shishio, while not on Kenshin's level of technique, makes up for it with overwhelming strength and endurance. It's just those advantages that would be most useful against the comparatively delicate and technique-reliant Enishi.

[Yak]

If you'll forgive me for posting a rather truncated opinion of the matter - even ignoring the statement from Aoshi and Saito that Enishi was greatly inferior to Shishio (them both being swordmen of the highest caliber, one would assume they could gain SOME inkling of Enishi's might even without him using his most powerful techniques) it was stated several times by Enishi and others that the reason behind Enishi's dominance of Kenshi and his Hiten Mitsurugi is Enishi's intense study of the art and everything that defines Kenshin.

Enishi > Kenshin =/> Shishio

While a high caliber swordsman in his own right, Enishi only competes with Kenshin - most likely the greatest swordsman of his time save Seijuro - with his knowledge of Hiten Mitsurugi's weaknesses. Shishio, while not on Kenshin's level of technique, makes up for it with overwhelming strength and endurance. It's just those advantages that would be most useful against the comparatively delicate and technique-reliant Enishi.

Granted, that has been said, however you don't become a swordsman of that level if you can't adapt to different styles and different situations. Enishi rivals Kenshin, Shishio, Saito, Aoshi... all men who have survived the Bakumatsu Era, a time where heads were rolling every night, assassins running around and what not. Do you really think Enishi could be on par with someone of Kenshin's calibre by only studying techniques that serve the purpose of taking down Hiten Mitsurugi? I think not.

Furthermore, for those who debate this fight and have the background knowledge for the characters, you should know Enishi's childhood. The hardships he has been through. I'm not talking about Tomoe, I'm talking about Shanghai and eating corpses to survive, I'm talking about killing an innocent family to gain money and a weapon. I'm talking about Enishi who is determined, wrong, insanely POSSESSED to get his revenge.

Enishi worked his way up a huge hirarchy in the mafia. There aren't just idiots and brutes in there, I'm sure there were actually some formiddable fighters as well, and I'm sure they used other stuff than Hiten Mitsurugi.

Enishi also said he had studied Watojutsu and added own techniques. Meaning, the basics of his swordstyle he has completely mastered, which is always a requirement for adding own techniques. It's those very said invented techniques of him that are specialised in taking down Hiten Mitsurugi. Taking this aside, Enishi is still a master of the Watojutsu art, just like Kenshin is a master of Hiten Mitsurugi (also.. when has Kenshin ever invented his own techniques?).

I don't know about Shishio's sword style but he didn't seem to be a student of any particular school since his fighting seemed to be rather... how to put it... simple and pragmatic. It's just that Shishio is very good in the standart techniques of swordsmanship and has it backed up by his insane power and some nice fire gimmicks.

That doesn't mean he's not impressive, but I want you to understand that Enishi is much more than just a greenhorn who happens to set his style up to only beat Hiten Mitsurugi. He is a master swordsman like the other survivors of the Bakumatsu and he can adapt to Shishio like to any other swordstyle too, more or less good, depending on what it is.

Enishi has the class to take Shishio down.

[Id]

Why do you need scans? They won't reveal anything new. Or did you not read the manga? Then you should know what happened.


Oh well you see, I am not aiming to sway your mind. Just those who are reading this thread.



Shisho has proven himself to be just as durable, strong, experienced, and a crazy reaction (perception of speed). Enishi would be taken out vary promptly unless he goes off to use the nerves of insanity.
The only weakness I see is his time limit. (like 20 min I think)

Experience + Crazy reaction time. On Zero Strike.
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/8162/kenshinv17c13906bt1.th.jpg (http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c13906bt1.jpg)

Experience - overcoming Futae no Kiwami and Appling Futae no Kiwami
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/371/kenshinv17c13907ef0.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c13907ef0.jpg)

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4754/kenshinv17c13908cp0.th.jpg (http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c13908cp0.jpg)

Insane Speed Perception + his crazy reaction time. Aioshis Kaiten Kenbu.

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/9869/kenshinv17c14004yp8.th.jpg (http://img452.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14004yp8.jpg)

Experience + Reaction time - Enough to over come Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4535/kenshinv17c14007qf6.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14007qf6.jpg)

Maybe the most impressive was having reaction time quick enough to match Kenshins Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3392/kenshinv17c14306xn4.th.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14306xn4.jpg)

[Id]

Then we have Shishos durability and thresh hold that matches Enishi’s
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9483/kenshinv17c14110bi9.th.jpg (http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14110bi9.jpg)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4466/kenshinv17c14201st1.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14201st1.jpg)

Taking what ever Kenshin has
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/4630/kenshinv17c14203pz3.th.jpg (http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14203pz3.jpg)

And again
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1959/kenshinv17c14204jb0.th.jpg (http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14204jb0.jpg)

And again.
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4258/kenshinv17c14206ac6.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14206ac6.jpg)

Even Kenshins Ogi.
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/7703/kenshinv17c14310rd6.th.jpg (http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14310rd6.jpg)

[Id]

But like the nerves of insanity, Shisho is not unbeatable.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5788/kenshinv17c14508si7.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv17c14508si7.jpg)

I don’t know if Guren Kaina would be as effective as Kenshins Ryumeisen.
All I know is that the nerves of insanity ware effected by the sonic boom created by Ryumeisen. I believe explosions create sonic booms as well.


Looking over both fights. Shisho had no problem countering all of Kenshins techniques, as well as countering the best Aioshi, Sanosuke, and Saito. This is with out the need of developing and studying a specific style of combat for 10 years. (go…incredibly simplistic yet effective technique:yell)

And unlike Enishi, Shisho has shown remarkable skill in defensive and offensive skills. Ware Enishi is lacking defensive department (acknowledged by Kenshin and himself.)

I mentioned this earlier. I do not think it’s a good idea for Enishi to take on Shisho with out activating nerves of insanity. But really do not see Enishi overwhelming Shisho. Unlike Enishi, Shisho does not have to activate or pump himself up to augment his physical attributes.

[Yak]

Nice scans. Though, did you read what I said? All of those people who opposed Shishio at that time were already horribly fucked up, minus Saito, who still fell victim to his leg injuries and a Guren Kaina that partially exploded inside his body (since Shishio had rammed his fingers in Saito's shoulder). But it didn't kill Saito though.

The others, Aoshi got up from being hit by Ama Kakeru no Hirameki (remember what it did to Shishio when it hit? He wasn't quite fresh afterwards. Same goes for Aoshi). I don't even need to talk about Sano, his injuries were the worst of all seeing how Anji and him beat the living shit out of each other, taking so many Futae no Kiwami that you could blow up entire buildings with it, figurally speaking.

And Kenshin was injured from his two fights with Sojiro and Aoshi, plus the running around and all. He was at best at half of his strength when he even arrived to fight a fresh Shishio who probably could've taken a quick bath before the fight and lay on some make-up if he wanted.

Taking all this into account - as Shishio planned all these things for his match-up, even anticipating that Aoshi might turn against him - his opponents were at best average and easily to beat. Aoshi's Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren pales in comparison to what he is able to perform when he's fresh. Shishio blocking and dodging this is hardly a display of amazing reaction speed and anticipation.

As for reproducing Futae no Kiwami - he didn't. He simply slapped Sano in the wall with brute force. Very impressive, yes, but not that much if you would remember the fact that he was beaten up like a bag potatoes and already had his Futae-hand close to completely broken. He could as well just throw a cotton pad at Shishio, it would have about the same effect.

What you showed is not so impressive if you consider the circumstances Shishios opponents were in beforehand. Enishi is far, far better than a bunch of half deads.

Also, Enishi's lack of defense was meant in the way that he can't defend against the double-edged side effects of his nerves of insanity. That he can block and put up a good fight and defend himself he has actually proven more then enough or else Kenshin would've gotten some more hits in than he had. And why do you need a great defense if you have an offense that is so overwhelming that your opponents can't keep up with you in terms of speed? Why defend if your opponent can't even HIT you?

[Id]

Nice scans. Though, did you read what I said? All of those people who opposed Shishio at that time were already horribly fucked up, minus Saito, who still fell victim to his leg injuries and a Guren Kaina that partially exploded inside his body (since Shishio had rammed his fingers in Saito's shoulder). But it didn't kill Saito though.

The others, Aoshi got up from being hit by Ama Kakeru no Hirameki (remember what it did to Shishio when it hit? We hasn't quite fresh afterwards. Same goes for Aoshi). I don't even need to talk about Sano, his injuries were the worst of all seeing hos Anji and him beat the living shit out of each other, taking so many Futae no Kiwami that you could blow up entire buildings with it, figurally speaking.

And Kenshin was injured from his two fights with Sojiro and Aoshi, plus the running around and all. He was at best at half of his strength when he even arrived to fight a fresh Shishio who probably could've taken a quick bath before the fight and lay on some make-up if he wanted.

Taking all this into account - as Shishio planned all these things for his match-up, even anticipating that Aoshi might turn against him - his opponents were at best average and easily to beat. Aoshi's Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren pales in comparison to what he is able to perform when he's fresh. Shishio blocking and dodging this is hardly a display of amazing reaction speed and anticipation.

As for reproducing Futae no Kiwami - he didn't. He simply slapped Sano in the wall with brute force. Very impressive, yes, but not that much if you would remember the fact that he was beaten up like a bag potatoes and already had his Futae-hand close to completely broken. He could as well just throw a cotton pad at Shishio, it would have about the same effect.

What you showed is not so impressive if you consider the circumstances Shishios opponents were in beforehand. Enishi is far, far better than a bunch of half deads.

True kenshin had two matches prior twords his fight. Shisho was shot in the head and burnt alive. His pores are closed so he suffers from a sever case of heat stroke. The poor bustard is in pain. (Sadly I don’t feel pity for him o_O)

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3905/kenshinv16c13609wx0.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv16c13609wx0.jpg)

But still overcoming an Ogi is overcoming an Ogi as long as the character has the will to fight.
Never the less, taking on 4 random fighters, enduring past its time limit, and still have enough to counter Kenshins Ogi is vary impressive. (at least for me it is)


And you have to keep in mind that, Enishi depended on physiological warefare (the constant reminder of her dead Sister) to beat Kenshin. That greatly hinders Kenshin, in his over all performance.
Besides its mentioned time and time again (even in the Enishi encounter that). That if their will to fight is so great, it permits them to fight above human standards.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2325/kenshinv23c203125ix7.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv23c203125ix7.jpg)

[omg laser pew pew!]

Wasn't one of the reasons why Enishi did so well was because his style was specifically against the hiten mitsurugi?

[Yak]

True kenshin had two matches prior twords his fight. Shisho was shot in the head and burnt alive. His pores are closed so he suffers from a sever case of heat stroke. The poor bustard is in pain. (Sadly I don’t feel pity for him o_O)

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3905/kenshinv16c13609wx0.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv16c13609wx0.jpg)

But still overcoming an Ogi is overcoming an Ogi as long as the character has the will to fight.
Never the less, taking on 4 random fighters, enduring past its time limit, and still have enough to counter Kenshins Ogi is vary impressive. (at least for me it is)


And you have to keep in mind that, Enishi depended on physiological warefare (the constant reminder of her dead Sister) to beat Kenshin. That greatly hinders Kenshin, in his over all performance.
Besides its mentioned time and time again (even in the Enishi encounter that). That if their will to fight is so great, it permits them to fight above human standards.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2325/kenshinv23c203125ix7.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kenshinv23c203125ix7.jpg)

Hm, I guess then Enishi couldn't overcome his human standarts because he's an emo boy who misses his sister and therefore he will lose to Shishio who can overcome his limits because he's busting a nut when he thinks of defeating Battosai since according to Houji defeating Battosai = conquering Japan = Shishio's childhood dream? Remember, plot doesn't play any role in this at all. Enishi's mind games and emoness don't count as much as Shishio who only overcame his limits because he was facing the one man who he believed could threaten his dream.

I just don't know anymore. I presented all the points that speak for Enishi, there isn't much more to add to this, so I'll only watch this debate go on and listen to some other arguments of other people. Maybe this can give me some new ideas. Anyway, I still think Enishi has this. Not saying it will be easy, but he can pull it off.

[Id]

Hm, I guess then Enishi couldn't overcome his human standarts because he's an emo boy who misses his sister and therefore he will lost to Shishio who can overcome his limits because he's busting a nut when he thinks of defeating Battosai since according to Houji defeating Battosai = conquering Japan = Shishio's childhood dream?

I just don't know anymore. I presented all the points that speak for Enishi, there isn't much more to add to this, so I'll only watch this debate go on and listen to some other arguments of other people. Maybe this can give me some new ideas. Anyway, I still think Enishi has this. Not saying it will be easy, but he can pull it off.

Well each person interprets events and situations as they see fit. Their isn’t always a clear answer, especially if those two have never confronted each other. The only clear answer we do know of is Hiko Seijuro >>>>any Kenshin Character.



Oh and being the vary…… extremely,…..nice guy that I am (yes I am…..)

I uploaded the Enishi and Shisho matches for those who have not read the manga.
This is rep worthy, so don’t be stingy with the rep>_<
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=12RHZM8P

You can also read the enter manga online here:
http://mangavolume.com/rurouni-kenshin/chapter-255/

[Orion]

Well each person interprets events and situations as they see fit. Their isn’t always a clear answer, especially if those two have never confronted each other. The only clear answer we do know of is Hiko Seijuro >>>>any Kenshin Character.



Oh and being the vary…… extremely,…..nice guy that I am (yes I am…..)

I uploaded the Enishi and Shisho matches for those who have not read the manga.
This is rep worthy, so don’t be stingy with the rep>_<
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=12RHZM8P

You can also read the enter manga online here:
http://mangavolume.com/rurouni-kenshin/chapter-255/

hehe if hiko woulda fought shishio instead of kenshin it woulda been a straight ass whooping from hiko god i love that guy.and i still say nerves of insanity enishi wins......because lets face it kenshin was not 100% in the shishio fight not even close,yet he was able to get hits in and shishio cant take enishi's hits like he did from kenshin because enishi's hits would cut shishio into pieces.

[Shadow Replication 1480]

Kenshin wasn't 100% for the Enishi fight, either. It was specifically stated on the boat when they were headed towards Enishi's island that he "only had enough energy to fight Enishi". He wasn't fresh for either fight(remember, after Karou's "death" at the dojo, Kenshin went to Fallen Village and hadn't eaten or drank anything since before the dojo battle and slept for like 3 days after he came back to save Yahiko) though he was quite a bit more wiped out for the Shishio fight than either of the Enishi fights.

That being said, if it's regular Enishi, Shishio might have a chance. "Nerves of Insanity" Enishi would fuck him up something fierce, though.

[Jin22]

Makoto Shishio would out right murder Enishi Yukishiro.

[Orion]

Makoto Shishio would out right murder Enishi Yukishiro.

care to explain how.......when enishi preety much ''out right'' murdered a kenshin who was much more rested then the one shishio fought, for most of their battle,kenshin tagged shishio that means enishi can and guess what unlike when shishio got hit by kenshin's gay non cutting sword enishi's sword is going to remove limbs.

[Yak]

Makoto Shishio would out right murder Enishi Yukishiro.

Thanks for reading through the entire thread and throroughly considering all the presented facts and circumstances.:notrust

[Jin22]

Thanks for reading through the entire thread and throroughly considering all the presented facts and circumstances.:notrustNo problem smile-big

No really, it's sometimes hard for me to find that kind of patience.

enishi pretty much ''out right'' murdered a kenshin who was much more rested then the one shishio foughtWhat? Kenshin utterly defeated an Enishi even though: 1. he hadn't really come close to completely being healed and rested from the first Jinchuu encounter and his battle with Enishi and 2. You can't just instantly heal from such a state of comatose that Kenshin was in those serveral days. When Kenshin fought Shishio, not only was he ready, but so was his resolve. He didn't gain that resolve to fight Enishi until their second encounter.

for most of their battle,kenshin tagged shishio that means enishi can and guess what unlike when shishio got hit by kenshin's gay non cutting sword enishi's sword is going to remove limbs.Shshio got hit by Kenshin's Ogi and still got up, not to mention the fact that Kenshin didn't beat Shishio in the first place, Shishio basically beat himself; also, how long did Shishio have to wait for Kenshin to regain himself as he laid in the dirt unconscious?

[Orion]

No problem smile-big

No really, it's sometimes hard for me to find that kind of patience.

What? Kenshin utterly defeated an Enishi even though: 1. he hadn't really come close to completely being healed and rested from the first Jinchuu encounter and his battle with Enishi and 2. You can't just instantly heal from such a state of comatose that Kenshin was in those serveral days. When Kenshin fought Shishio, not only was he ready, but so was his resolve. He didn't gain that resolve to fight Enishi until their second encounter.

Shshio got hit tby Kenshin's Ogi and still got up, not to mention the fact that Kenshin didn't beat Shishio in the first place, Shishio basically beat himself; also, how long did Shishio have to wait for Kenshin to regain himself as he laid in the dirt unconscious?
enishi dominated kenshin practically the whole fight,shishio got hit by kenshin's ougi with A SWORD THAT DOESNT CUT,enishi's ougi which is practically even with kenshin's would be alot more damaging since his actually cuts shit.

[Jin22]

Saying what I said, I was implying by the fact that Shishio was able to maintain battle after being directly hit with the Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki, Enshi on the other hand was done.

And you make it seem as if both Kenshin and Enishi's ogi's have the same attack power.

[Orion]

Saying what I said, I was implying by the fact that Shishio was able to maintain battle after being directly hit with the Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki, Enshi on the other hand was done.

And you make it seem as if both Kenshin and Enishi's ogi's have the same attack power.

i know shishio has more durability then enishi.......but he is behind in speed and technique,the difference between enishi using his ougi on shishio and kenshin using his would be that enishi's would cut shishio in half while kenshin's doesnt cut because of his dull sword.

[Id]

How is Shisho behind Tech and Speed?

[Orion]

How is Shisho behind Tech and Speed?

nerves of insanity kenshin was ahead of kenshin in speed for most of the battle and kenshin was shown to be faster then shishio,also shishio didnt have much techniques he relied mostly on his insane ass durability and abnormal strength.

[omg laser pew pew!]

Well to be honest, I don't think Shishio was really trying until Kenshin was going to use his ultimate technique

[Id]

nerves of insanity kenshin was ahead of kenshin in speed for most of the battle and kenshin was shown to be faster then shishio,also shishio didnt have much techniques he relied mostly on his insane ass durability and abnormal strength.

Im sorry, but when did Kenshin overwhelm Shisho with raw speed?

[Orion]

Im sorry, but when did Kenshin overwhelm Shisho with raw speed?

he hit him atleast 2 times with several different techniques......

[Jin22]

i know shishio has more durability then enishi.......but he is behind in speed and technique,the difference between enishi using his ougi on shishio and kenshin using his would be that enishi's would cut shishio in half while kenshin's doesnt cut because of his dull sword.You're still comparing the way the Kofuku Zettōsei effected against the Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki during the first encounter. For one, during the second encounter that attack had opposite results (Enishi's sword wind up shattered) and two, who's the say the Kofuku Zettōsei would have the same effect against the Kaguzuchi. That's assuming Shishio would resort to using it.

[Orion]

You're still comparing the way the Kofuku Zettōsei effected against the Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki during the first encounter. For one, during the second encounter that attack had opposite results (Enishi's sword wind up shattered) and two, who's the say the Kofuku Zettōsei would have the same effect against the Kaguzuchi. That's assuming Shishio would resort to using it.

who says their attacks will ever meet?enishi is faster then shishio,and the kaguzuchi if i remember right is shishio's ougi the massive fire tornado thing right?we never actually saw it do anything so i dont see how i could compare it to anything.

[Jin22]

who says their attacks will ever meet?enishi is faster then shishio,and the kaguzuchi if i remember right is shishio's ougi the massive fire tornado thing right?we never actually saw it do anything so i dont see how i could compare it to anything.My fault, had to step out for a sec. Continuing, the only reason Shishio couldn't connect the kaguzuchi against Kenshin was because of the immense power and preasure that emitted from the Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki. Remember how it vacuumed Shishio inside and connected. Again, can you even prove that Enishi's nerves of insanity would even work against Shishio? Not that it'll help much with Shishio being able to have clearly been above Sojirou let alone being able to parry Kenshin's ogi.

[Orion]

My fault, had to step out for a sec. Continuing, the only reason Shishio couldn't connect the kaguzuchi against Kenshin was because of the immense power and preasure that emitted from the Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki. Remember how it vacuumed Shishio inside and connected. Again, can you even prove that Enishi's nerves of insanity would even work against Shishio? Not that it'll help much with Shishio being able to have clearly been above Sojirou let alone being able to parry Kenshin's ogi.

i know why it didnt hit what i was saying was we never actually see it connect to anything so we cant compare it to kenshin's or enishi's ougi,what do you mean how do i need to prove his nerves of insanity work against shishio?its an ability he uses he could use it in this battle,and comparing just because he was stronger then soujiro have anything to do with this battle,also he parried the first hit of kenshins ougi because he knew the secret and knew what he needed to do when he saw that kenshin is using his left foot,kenshin also used his ougi twice before so he was far from 100% when he used it on shishio,enishi is more then capable of getting a hit on shishio and unlike when kenshin hit shishio enishi's attacks actually cut which is why i see him winning.

[Jin22]

i know why it didnt hit what i was saying was we never actually see it connect to anything so we cant compare it to kenshin's or enishi's ougi,what do you mean how do i need to prove his nerves of insanity work against shishio?its an ability he uses he could use it in this battle.No, it's not an ability. It is more of a state he get's into because of his hate for Kenshin.

,and comparing just because he was stronger then soujiro have anything to do with this battle,also he parried the first hit of kenshins ougi[What I'm interpreting from you is that you're saying that Enishi will win because of his superior speed, what I'm saying is that Shishio has out done attacks and individuals that could exceed god-like speed.

Again, can you prove Enishi could attain the frenzied nerves against Shishio? Not that it'll help much.

[Orion]

if its an ability he used its allowed in an ob fight......and again the only godlike speed attack he outdid was kenshins ougi which yet again he knew the trick to it and was ready for it.enishi was faster then kenshin,kenshi hit shishio,enishi can hit shishio,enishi's attacks will actually cut shishio.

[Jin22]

It can only be an ability if he can get it off in the fight. It is stated that Enishi can attain the frenzied nerves because of his hate for Kenshin, not Shishio. Again, it's not an ability, it is a state reserved for Kenshin. Unless of course you can prove it'll even work against Shishio.

[Orion]

It can only be an ability if he can get it off in the fight. It is stated that Enishi can attain the frenzied nerves because of his hate for Kenshin, not Shishio. Again, it's not an ability, it is a state reserved for Kenshin. Unless of course you can prove it'll even work against Shishio.

naruto went kn4 because of the hate he has for orochimaru does that mean he cant use them in a ob battle against anyone but orochimaru:notrust ,how do i need to prove it will work omfg,in nerves of insanity he was faster then kenshin,kenshin was able to hit shishio so enishi will be able to hit shisio wtf is so hard to understand about this.

[Jin22]

naruto went kn4 because of the hate he has for orochimaru does that mean he cant use them in a ob battle against anyone but orochimaru:notrust ,how do i need to prove it will work omfg,in nerves of insanity he was faster then kenshin,kenshin was able to hit shishio so enishi will be able to hit shisio wtf is so hard to understand about this.Look, all it is is a simple question: prove it could work.? Enishi explains clearly that because of his hatred for Kenshin he can attain that state against him. Again, the frenzied nerves is not an ability, it is a state of the mind. It is not something that he can tap into at will. Unless you can prove otherwise.

[Perfect Moron]

naruto went kn4 because of the hate he has for orochimaru does that mean he cant use them in a ob battle against anyone but orochimaru:notrust ,how do i need to prove it will work omfg,in nerves of insanity he was faster then kenshin,kenshin was able to hit shishio so enishi will be able to hit shisio wtf is so hard to understand about this.

That wasn't stated, and it can be argued time skip naruto can go kyuubi at will, since he went kyuubi to use Oodama Rasengan against Itachi without being pissed at all (in fact, I think he was smiling) and Jiraiya advised him against going tailed, implying he has a choice in the matter. When it's a battle involving pre time skip naruto, I have argued he can't go kyuubi at will.

However, Enishi did turn on the nerves of insanity on an argument with his lackey Heishin to scare the shit out of him. But I think it was about something related to Kenshin. Can someone provide a scan?

[Orion]

That wasn't stated, and it can be argued time skip naruto can go kyuubi at will, since he went kyuubi to use Oodama Rasengan against Itachi without being pissed at all (in fact, I think he was smiling) and Jiraiya advised him against going tailed, implying he has a choice in the matter. When it's a battle involving pre time skip naruto, I have argued he can't go kyuubi at will.

However, Enishi did turn on the nerves of insanity on an argument with his lackey Heishin to scare the shit out of him. But I think it was about something related to Kenshin. Can someone provide a scan?

naruto uses tails from his emotions(mainly anger)he went kn4 against oro because he was absolutely pissed,that means if we go by jin's logic of only being able to use certain abilties like that against certain people then naruto cant use kn4 against anyone but orochimaru since no one would piss naruto off like that.

[Jin22]

naruto uses tails from his emotions(mainly anger)he went kn4 against oro because he was absolutely pissed,that means if we go by jin's logic of only being able to use certain abilties like that against certain people then naruto cant use kn4 against anyone but orochimaru since no one would piss naruto off like that.*slaps head*

Once again, there is no logic, there is no assumption, it is complete fact because it was stated to be. Enishi himself stated to have attained the frenzied nerves because of his hatred for Kenshin only. Comparing Naruto and Enishi is pointless if their triggers aren't similar in any way.

[Orion]

*slaps head*

Once again, there is no logic, there is no assumption, it is complete fact because it was stated to be. Enishi himself stated to have attained the frenzied nerves because of his hatred for Kenshin only. Comparing Naruto and Enishi is pointless if their triggers aren't similar in any way.

their triggers are similar anger and hate,naruto's anger allows him to more powerful because of kyuubi,enishi's anger allows him to get stronger because he has larger then normal nerves that make his reaction and ect speed faster.

[Perfect Moron]

naruto uses tails from his emotions(mainly anger)he went kn4 against oro because he was absolutely pissed,that means if we go by jin's logic of only being able to use certain abilties like that against certain people then naruto cant use kn4 against anyone but orochimaru since no one would piss naruto off like that.

That's not the same. Naruto chose to go tailed against Oro because he was so pissed, but it was never stated he needs to be pissed. He popped out at least the first tail consciously. The popping of the others was maybe accelerated by Orochimaru's taunting, but since Naruto doesn't seem very conscious in tailed mode, he would have probably popped them out anyway. The emotions thing was only stated pre time skip (also, they said his life being in danger was another condition, which would be met in a lot of fights), and time skip Naruto seems to have some degree of control over his transformation. Jiraiya advising him not to use 'that' jutsu (and unless you are a Narutard, you know that's the tailed transformations) implies he has a choice in the matter. I'd say he can pop out one or two tails at will and then, since he goes so feral and berserk, if he doesn't kill his enemy out right, he'll pop out the other tails anyway.

Back on topic, if a character has a transformation that requires certain conditions, emotional, psychological or whatever, and they aren't met, I don't see why would he be allowed to use it, unless the thread starter states so.

[Orion]

Never stated. IIRC, Naruto popping out at least the first tail was a conscious action. The popping of the other was maybe accelerated by Orochimaru's taunting, but since Naruto doesn't seem very conscious in tailed mode, he would have probably popped them out anyway. The emotions thing was only stated pre time skip (also, they said his life being in danger was another condition, which would be met in a lot of fights), and time skip Naruto seems to have some degree of control over his transformation. Jiraiya advising him not to use 'that' jutsu (and unless you are a Narutard, you know that's the tailed transformations) implies he has a choice in the matter. I'd say he can pop out one or two tails at will and then, since he goes so feral and berserk, if he doesn't kill his enemy out right, he'll pop out the other tails anyway.

Back on topic, if a character has a transformation that requires certain conditions, emotional, psychological or whatever, and they aren't met, I don't see why would he be allowed to use it, unless the thread starter states so.

you can say he can pop tails out at will but he has never actually done it,''that jutsu'' cant be tails because tails isnt a jutsu and if it was a jutsu naruto still doesnt remember what happened in kn4 so telling him not to use it would be retarded,and naruto could not pop out 1 tail pre skip kyuubi poped out 1 tail when naruto's life was threatened by taking a head dive off a cliff.

[Jin22]

their triggers are similar anger and hate,naruto's anger allows him to more powerful because of kyuubi,enishi's anger allows him to get stronger because he has larger then normal nerves that make his reaction and ect speed faster.It was stated and showed for Naruto to attain Kyuubi's power because of either life threatening circumstances or during extreme emotional outbursts. On the other hand we have Kenshin who is the direct trigger Enishi's nerves of insanity only after, and I mean only after asking Enishi if Tomoe was smiling inside him.

I'll ask again, can you prove that Enishi would even attain the frenzied nerves against Shishio?

[Orion]

It was stated and showed for Naruto to attain Kyuubi's power because of either life threatening circumstances or during extreme emotional outbursts. On the other hand we have Kenshin who is the direct trigger Enishi's nerves of insanity only after, and I mean only after asking Enishi if Tomoe was smiling inside him.

I'll ask again, can you prove that Enishi would even attain the frenzied nerves against Shishio?

they are still both caused by emotions and abilities that have to do with them,if we allow naruto's transformations then we should allow enishi's nerves,a character can use all his abilites and stuff they have shown unless its to broken to be used in the ob(like bleaches shinigami's cant be touched smelt seen ect thing)enishi can use his ability from having abnormally large nerves.

[Perfect Moron]

you can say he can pop tails out at will but he has never actually done it,''that jutsu'' cant be tails because tails isnt a jutsu and if it was a jutsu naruto still doesnt remember what happened in kn4 so telling him not to use it would be retarded,and naruto could not pop out 1 tail pre skip kyuubi poped out 1 tail when naruto's life was threatened by taking a head dive off a cliff.

You said it. In kn4. I'm talking about tails in general.
I see nothing that indicates the first tail wasn't popped out at will. He had already seen Orochimaru, but only transformed when he knew they'd have to face him. The manga is gonna end, and you people are still gonna be waiting for 'that jutsu'.

There is evidence that suggests time skip Naruto has control over his transformations, at least the first stages. I could see Naruto using Kyuubi in a fight against any Akatsuki member. And there's evidence that Enishi's nerves are triggered by his hatred of Kenshin. I wouldn't expect him to use them against Sano, Saitoh, or Shisho. It's an awful comparison.

[Orion]

You said it. In kn4. I'm talking about tails in general.
I see nothing that indicates the first tail wasn't popped out at will. He had already seen Orochimaru, but only transformed when he knew they'd have to face him. The manga is gonna end, and you people are still gonna be waiting for 'that jutsu'.

Now, how about adressing the second part of my post? (You know, the one that actually relates to this battle)

i was talking about all tails and in all tails naruto hasnt been shown to just pop them out at will they take emotional stress,and to the second part,in an ob battle characters can use all the abilites and shit they have shown in battle unless it is either stated not to be able to be used or if its too broken to be used(bleaches thing about shingami's cant be touched smelt seen ect ect and reitsu being able to take people who have no reitsu and pin them to the ground or hxh's nen baptism thing.

[Jin22]

they are still both caused by emotions and abilities that have to do with them,if we allow naruto's transformations then we should allow enishi's nerves,a character can use all his abilites and stuff they have shown unless its to broken to be used in the ob(like bleaches shinigami's cant be touched smelt seen ect thing)enishi can use his ability from having abnormally large nerves.You still aren't getting it and this is the last time I'll repeat. Naruto and Enishi's triggers are different. It is possible for Naruto to use Kyuubi's chakra against just about anyone because of the nature of it's trigger being emotion. Enishi's trigger on the other hand is his hatred for Kenshin. Can you prove otherwise that it'll work against Shishio...?

[Perfect Moron]

i was talking about all tails and in all tails naruto hasnt been shown to just pop them out at will they take emotional stress,

Ok. Why don't you show me the manga page where that's stated?

[Orion]

You still aren't getting it and this is the last time I'll repeat. Naruto and Enishi's triggers are different. It is possible for Naruto to use Kyuubi's chakra against just about anyone because of the nature of it's trigger being emotion. Enishi's trigger on the other hand is his hatred for Kenshin. Can you prove otherwise that it'll work against Shishio...?

the thread creator never said what enishi form to use,so how bout this regular enishi losses,nerved enishi cuts shishio's head off are you happy now?

[Jin22]

Yeah, regular Enishi wouldn't have a prayer while nerved Enishi would provide a more equal challenge. Enishi while in his nerves state could possibly win though it still wouldn't be easy. If Makoto had no fifteen minute time-limit then I still believe he would decimate Enishi.

People always seem to forget the plain fact that in the end, Kenshin did not defeat Shishio singlehandedly with all the assisstance he had.

[Zouri]

I seriously think that the two are even and that if they ever fought it would be a double KO. Enishi with his nerves would easily move faster than Shishio, but Shishio has far more battle experience, insane durability, and some very impressive techniques. Enishi, other than his insane speed, has added strength, sight, sound, smell and the idea of "mind over matter" behind him. Let's face it, stabbing yourself repeatedly in the ear to regain balance after activating the nerves is hardcore no matter how you look at it.

Both have huge weaknesses though. Enishi's weaknesses are sound and pain. Pain is doubled with the nerves and sharp sounds can mess with his balance. Shishio, on the other hand, has a 15 minute time limit and freakin' has blood evaporate after too long. Even if he wins he'll probably die after that. Both characters fought a weakened Kenshin and were whipping him until the last second. So there is no real way to judge their ability.

However, going on what I know I think that the only conclusion would be a double KO. I can't see either really losing this fight, or winning.

[Perfect Moron]

Yeah, regular Enishi wouldn't have a prayer while nerved Enishi would provide a more equal challenge. Enishi while in his nerves state could possibly win though it still wouldn't be easy. If Makoto had no fifteen minute time-limit then I still believe he would decimate Enishi.

People always seem to forget the plain fact that in the end, Kenshin did not defeat Shishio singlehandedly with all the assisstance he had.

On this, I agree with vlaaad. Kenshin hit Shishio quite a few times, Enishi with NoI is much faster and uses an edged sword. He would win without much troble, imo.

[tri-sapphire]

Yeah, regular Enishi wouldn't have a prayer while nerved Enishi would provide a more equal challenge. Enishi while in his nerves state could possibly win though it still wouldn't be easy. If Makoto had no fifteen minute time-limit then I still believe he would decimate Enishi.

People always seem to forget the plain fact that in the end, Kenshin did not defeat Shishio singlehandedly with all the assisstance he had.

Makoto would be dead in the first minute with the nerves of insanity. Without them, he might last a tad longer.

People always seem to forget the plain fact that Kenshin was nowhere near his full strength when fighting Shishio (even with the spirit surpassing the body thing). After receiving heavy injuries and straining his body with the ougi against Aoshi, and receiving more injuries and straining his body with the ougi again against Soujiro, he could barely walk by the time he reached Shishio.

And it's not as though Shishio was without help either. Or are you forgetting about Yumi?


People also seem to forget that Kenshin was at his strongest when he finished off Enishi at the end (finally realizing the full truth of the ougi, and gaining a real reason for living), while Enishi was missing his inner ear and shaken by his sister no longer smiling for him.

[Id]

Shisho was surprised by receiving his exploding glove to the face, it threw him off balance that is why Kenshin pulled off a combo.

Kenshins sonic boom effected Enishi. Enish was cought by surprise and threw him of balance.
Take note, his strength went down a bit, but his speed remained the same (or at least that’s what the manga stated). Any how because Enishi was off balance Kenshin could know doge all of his attacks.