View Full Version : TTournament: Infinite_Justice VS. Rice Ball
Keollyn
12-21-2006, 06:59 PM
I'm going to post this one now.. since I might be sleeping early today.
First Round, Match 8.
Standard match rules
PIS off
CIS on (In Character)
Bloodlust off. Albeit, characters are out to win.
No ring outs
Knock out or fatality
Team Infinite_Justice
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom from GSD
Dante from DMC3
Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice, also from GSD
Psycho Mantis from MGS1
Gohan from DBZ
vs
Team Rice Ball
Mimic (Exiles)
Elhaym Van Houten (Xenogears)
Gemini Saga (Saint Seiya)
Miang (Xenogears)
Black Alice (DC)
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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Dante vs Black Alice
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
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Psycho Mantis vs Elhaym
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Gohan vs Mimic
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I'll keep the rules and regulations simple.
Bold the name of the person you know is the winner and leave a commentary (optional).
If you can't think of a winner, mainly because you don't know enough of the person, you can wait till the owners of the team provide info and feats, and/or their argument, before you supply yours.
This brings us to the team owners. They can cast a vote also, but if they do so, they need to bring firm reason as to why they think so. Unlike normal voters, they are subject to biased voting.
With that said, no bribing the members. If you're caught doing so, your team is automatically out.
Rice Ball
12-21-2006, 07:16 PM
Okay i'll start from the Top.
Gemini Saga
This is the great bio Dark Dragon Lord wrote for him, he did a very good job.
GEMINI SAGA
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6492/geminisgoldav3ea.jpg
PROFILE
Name: Saga
Race: Human
Constellation: Gemini (The Twins)
Birthday: May 30th
Age: 28
Cloth: Gold Cloth
Group: Athena's Saint
Rank: Gold Saint
Country: Greece, Athens
Height: 188 cm
Weight: 87 kg
Blood Type: AB
Hair: Blue
Eyes: Green
Anime/Manga: Saint Seiya
BACKGROUND
Saga since he was child he had two souls one is as pure as god and the other as the devil, when the Good Saga is controlling the body his hair is blue and eye Green but when the Dark Saga gains control his hair turns grey and the eye red. Saga became a Gold Saint when he was kid and his job is to protect the goddess Athena at any cost and fight for her even if it means sacrificing his own life. Saga being of the Gemini Constellation and owning the Gemini Gold Cloth was in charge of protecting the Gemini house from any one who would try to invade the Sanctuary. Saga was said to be the most powerful saint in Sanctuary, he was respected by everybody. Saga being one of the strongest Gold Saint was nominated with Aioros to be the successor of the old pope, Shion.
Shion despite knowing that Saga was more respected and have the abilities to lead the Sanctuary decided to choose Aioros because he felt a darkness in Saga's soul. Saga accepted that because his only goal was to serve Athena. Saga had a twin brother, Kanon. Kanon was said to be as strong as Saga but he had evil ambitions. He asked Saga and encouraged him to kill baby Athena, Saga being one of the most loyal Saints to Athena locked his own brother in Cape Sunion.
Kanon's word had effects on Saga and Saga started to doubt the pope actions and his evil side has started to awaken again. Finally the good Saga lost control over his own body and his evil side got the control over Saga's body, Thus he killed the old pope, Shion and he became the new Pope. Nobody were doubting Saga because they thought he was the original pope. Dark Saga tried many times to kill Baby Athena but the Good Saga were always in his way stopping him in the last moments, and on one of the nights Dark Saga was trying to kill Baby Athena and he was followed by Aioros, before Saga being able to kill the baby the Gold Saint Aioros were able to help the baby in the last moment and learned about the pope's true identity, he was the Gemini Saint Saga. Things got complicated and Aioros was able to escape, Evil Saga announced that Aioros tried to kill Baby Athena and then escaped thus Aioros were considered a betrayer of Sanctuary.
For years Evil Saga were using the Gold Saints and other Saints in sanctuary to achieve his own goals and the saints were following his orders because the pope's orders are absolute for he, was an avatar of a god. On the other hand Athena grew young and finally gained her divine powers, together with the young Bronze Saints they attacked Sanctuary to get Athena back to where she is supposed to be.
In the end Saga was defeated by Athena and her Bronze Saints, and because of Athena's shields powers the light of the shields was able to remove the evil soul from Saga's body. Saga regained his gentle self and knowing that he caused alot of troubles for Athena and sanctuary he killed himself infront of her asking to be forgiven by Athena.
Saga was revived by Hades, Emperor Of the Underoworld so he can use them against Athena herself. Hades made a deal with Saga and the others that if they will kill Athena he will grant them eternal life. Saga and his companions agreed to Saga's rules and were given Surplices proving they have became Hades' Specters (Hades' Warriors) Saga pretending to be with Hades caused him to be fighting his own friends and brothers in arm, the Gold Saints. Enduring such pain and suffering he never gave up, his goal was to help the revived Pope Shion to accomplish his mission and that was to revive Athena's Cloth. Saga and the others needed to act as if they were his servents so they can fool the specters who were following them but in reality they were fighting so hard for the sake of their beloved goddess, Athena. Saga finally succeeded achiving his true motivations were died after the time has finished and he died standing then turned to dust.
In death Saga was still loyal to Athena, so when his soul was sent to the Underworld he regained his powers and cosmo and he used his powers even though he don't have a physical body anymore to help the young Bronze Saints and his companions to accomplish their job. It's to win against Athena's greatest enemy, Hades. Saga being of the Gold Saints who were fighting alongside Athena even after their death were received the banished seal. The gods knowing they have defied the supreme beings wanted to punish the Gold Saints for their crime to bare their fists against them, so they have sealed the Gold Saints' souls and still Saga and the others knowing they are no more alive, they don't have their bodies, he had no control over his soul anymore, still were loyal to Athena. Proving that, there were saints with their bodies destroyed , even if they were to bring down the wrath of gods upon themselves, they won't hesitate for Athena, even dead their souls are with Athena, even trapped in eternal suffering , their will wont falter, even of their souls must be sealed away they were sure there will be saints who will inherit this will. They will be the prove for the world that in this era there were saints like Saga, who didn't fear the gods.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6059/saga8nx.jpg
SPECIAL TECHNIQUES
Galaxian Explosion
The ultimate technique of Gemini Saga. Saga burn his cosmos to it's max and with this attack he can destroy objects be it physical or non-physical, he can destroy souls with and he can also destroy illusions. This attack was said to have a force of exploding galaxy it means the power of this attack will be like exploding galaxy. Saga can use this attack in many poses, he can catch the opponents and use the attack without moving his hand.
Another Dimension
This attack allows Gemini Saga to cut space-time and twist them, he can send his opponent to a different dimension/world and if the dimension was closed there is no hope to return to the real world instead he will be swimming in the endless sea of stars and planets. With this attack Saga can send the souls also to another dimension he can also consume projectiles and and energy balls or anything similar to that.
GenrouMaouKen
The Demon Emperor Fist, this attack only the Pope of the sanctuary can use it, Saga being able to use the attack means he reached the level of the Grand Pope, the strongest saint among Athena's Saints. This attack enables Saga to control his opponent the way he like, and if the opponent was hit by it he will not regain their senses unless they kill someone. Usin this attack allows Saga to hit the brain of the opponents and destroy the nervous system and paralyzing the opponent body.
SPECIAL ITEMS
Golden Dagger
This divine dagger was given to him by Cronos, the father of Zeus to kill Athena. This dagger have special powers and using it Saga can even kill the gods and thats why he was named the killer of the gods.
Gold Cloth
The strongest cloths among the other cloths of Athena's Saints. The Gold Cloth boost the saint strength, speed, durability and defense dramatically. With the cloth a Saint can survive in the deepest part of the sea and the pressure will not affect the cloth at all, with the Gold Cloth a saint can survive in the outer space or other dimensions as well even if it was the end of the universe. The Cloth doesn't lose its power even in Hell/Underworld. It was said that the Gold Cloth was bathed in the sun and has spirits of its own and divine powers from Athena herself.
ABILITIES
7th Sense
One cannot gain the 7th sense by training or burnning his spirite or increasing his Ki or whatever, one cannot get that sense by emotions.The 7th sense grant various abilities, for example with the seventh sense one can move at the speed of light, one can see the lightning, with the 7th sense even if one lost his eyesight he can see, if he lost hearing he still can hear, if he lost touch he still can feel, if he lost his all 5 sense the 7th sense they can use the senses they have lost. Even if one lost his brain and his 6th sense still with the 7th sense he can think, talk...etc With the 7th sense one can talk to another telepathy, born his cosmos infinitly...etc The 7th senses also allow the owner of the sense to heal himself, it boost the saint power, strength, cosmo, life-energy and the speed as well.
Lightspeed
Saga can move at the speed of light but probably can move faster than the light. Saga being a Gold Saint have the ability to do a 100,000,000 hit per second. Saga when he was a child and without his Gold Cloth or burning his cosmo was able to move at the speed of light.
Senses Removing
Saga have the ability to remove the senses of his opponent, with a simple flash of light the opponent will lose a sense of his 5 senses. Saga being able to hit the opponent at the speed of light will allow him to remove the opponent's 5 sense in second.
Psychic Powers
Saga have some psychic powers, for example he can call his Gold Cloth even if it was far away, he can call his cloth using the teleportion technique, meaning the cloth will appear infront of Saga from nowhere. Saga have the ability to control his cloth at the speed of light. Saga can use his cloth to even use his own attacks such as his light speed attacks or Another Dimension...etc Saga have telepathy, he can talk to people using that telepathy, he can paralyze or stop the movements of the opponent using that kind of power.
Comic Book Guy
12-21-2006, 07:20 PM
Black Alice is arguably dead here, if she can't draw upon the magics of the DCU. And there's no opponent on IJ's team that is magic based.
Keollyn
12-21-2006, 07:21 PM
Lightspeed
Saga can move at the speed of light but probably can move faster than the light.
Since a few of you just had to add Saint characters on your team, any notion of lightspeed+ should be refrained.
Rice Ball
12-21-2006, 07:25 PM
Black Alice.
Black Alice has the ability to temporarily usurp the magical powers of any being, even ones as powerful as the Spectre, gaining all its skills and power and leaving it powerless in turn. The limit to the distance at which she can steal power of a target being is unknown. However, in order to choose a particular target she must be able to see him/her; otherwise, she receives a random magic-user's powers whenever she activates her ability. When she steals a being's power, her clothing partially transforms to somewhat resemble that of her target. She has even shown the ability to steal the powers of two beings simultaneously.
Miang.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miang
I was really hoping to match her against a Girl for a instant win :)
Miangs gear- C-1 Vierge
Elhaym
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/db/Elly_Van_Houten.jpg/150px-Elly_Van_Houten.jpg
The young, skilled officer of the Solaris Military who is also the -Antitype- in this incarnation of Fei's life, just as she has been throughout the centuries on the planet (the Great Mother Sophia, Kim's wife Elly, etc.). She was created by the Wave Existence out of Abel's need for a mother. Elly was leading an operation to steal a top-secret experiment gear from the rival country Kislev, but was forced to crash-land in Lahan. Her encounter with Fei changes her life forever. Elly is an optimist, and wants to help Fei, despite the fact that he is a -Lamb-, and she cannot leave the military. She is a competent fighter with her rods, but she has powerful elemental ether, which makes her valuable to the party.
Weapon Preference/Fighting Style: Rod/Staff Fighting style, Gebler Special Forces Martial Arts
Likes: Being with Fei, helping others.
Dislikes: not being with Fei, people who abuse others, her own people - the Solarians
Gear: Vierge, and Regrs (Sophia's Omnigear)
Romantic Interest: Fei
Elly has one issue that remains with her, despite her being a Solarian and the daughter of one of the Empire's most decorated officers, there is the fact of her appearance, being red-haired and blue-violet eyed somewhat separates her from other Solarians who are mostly blond and blue-eyed. For a time she thought her mother was not the woman her father married, and had actually been her childhood nanny who was a Lamb. This fact of her life was a mark of ridicule by some people of Solaris, including Elly's former comrade in the Elements, Dominia. It's only toward the midpoint of the game, that Elly learns that this was how she looked ever since the dawn of life on their planet. Her love for Fei was once something she didn't understand until she realized that they were truly meant to be together, as they had been in their previous lives for the past ten thousand years (10,000 years). They consummated this love on the Yggdrasil and they cherished it when they returned to Ignas to be with their friends. Elly's love for others and for Fei helped her move through the deaths of both her mother and father, and helped her fight for her freedom when she was possessed by Miang in the Merkava. Only time can tell where her love for Fei will take her, but regardless, they will be together, even to the end of the world.
Ellys Gear- Vierge
A sleek and powerful Gear piloted by Elly Van Houten. It was a custom built special forces Gear made by Solaris specifically for top-level Ether users (an elite few within Gebler known as the 'Elements'). It first appeared at the Mountain Path when Elly confronted and then fought Fei, acting under orders from Gebler command. When Elly turns against Solaris and sides with Fei's party the Gear becomes playable full-time. In battle Vierge is very fast with powerful Ether attacks but its physical attacks are rather lacking. Its special ability is Animum Ether Response Offensive Drones or AERODs, powerful Ether-powered attack drones. The Gear was based on the C-1 Vierge, Miang's prototype Gear.
Birkin
12-21-2006, 07:29 PM
As I haven't seen any video links on skills etc, is it allowed to post visual arguments?
Keollyn
12-21-2006, 07:31 PM
^ Post whatever you think will help your team.
Keollyn
12-21-2006, 07:32 PM
Miang.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miang
I was really hoping to match her against a Girl for a instant win :)
Lol :amuse
Rice Ball
12-21-2006, 07:34 PM
Mimic
Former member of the Exiles.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Exiles31.jpg/250px-Exiles31.jpg
Aside from his ability to copy the skills, physical traits, knowledge, and superpowers of nearby people, the Mimic permanently possesses the powers of the original five X-Men: Angel, The Beast, Cyclops, Iceman and Marvel Girl. Thus, he has powers of flight (granted by angelic wings), increased strength and agility, optic blasts, temperature manipulation, and telekinesis. He partly retains Professor X's telepathic powers so that his telepathic signature is mistaken for that of Charles Xavier's himself in Excalibur #123, although he is not shown to be uncovered during recent searches for Xavier. He may also retain Wolverine's recuperative abilities.
Rice Ball
12-21-2006, 07:38 PM
I thought i better explain a little more about the vierges AERODs.
Think of them as the same as the DRAGOON system, but instead dealing large ammounts of Magical damage.
Sesshoumaru
12-21-2006, 07:40 PM
Team Infinite_Justice
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom from GSD
Dante from DMC3
Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice, also from GSD
Psycho Mantis from MGS1
Gohan from DBZ
vs
Team Rice Ball
Mimic (Exiles)
Elhaym Van Houten (Xenogears)
Gemini Saga (Saint Seiya)
Miang (Xenogears)
Black Alice (DC)
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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Auto-win. By the information provide, Gemini is a Galaxy Buster and can move at the speed of light. This tid-bit of information should be an automatic disqualification.
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Dante vs Black Alice
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Disqualification.
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
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Miang would win, but I'm disqualifying this person.
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Psycho Manstis vs Elhaym
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Elly would win, but I am disqualifying this person.
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Gohan vs Mimic
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Gohan would win despite Mimic copying his power. And I am disqualifying this person.
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EvilMoogle
12-21-2006, 07:40 PM
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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I'm guessing the SS character. Dunno about Gundam that much though, but it seems that most mecha would have problems.
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Dante vs Black Alice
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It would seem to me, if Alice can steal Dante's powers and leave him powerless she'll win. If she can't, she'll lose.
I'm betting can't.
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
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Dunno at all here.
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Psycho Mantis vs Elhaym
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Or here, my gut says Elhaym though for what that's worth.
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Gohan vs Mimic
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Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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Kira would be overwhelmed by Saga’s raw speed. The best Kira can do is keep his distance and attack from long distance, but what good is that against someone who can circle the earth 7.5 times in 1 sec?
I have to give this match to Saga. He can trick Kira into thinking he is dead, and hide his existence and become invisible. Only to catch him off guard and send him
To another demission
Destroy him with - Galactic Explosion
Or take over his mind with Imperil fist.
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Dante vs Black Alice
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This a vary broken character, If Dante was to move in for the kill right off….I could see him winning.
But that’s not his character, and be fore he knows it his powers will be hers.
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
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Main is just as dangerous as Id, In fact Miang is one of the few persons in Xenogears that match Id.
And her Omni gear is can take lots of damage. In fact the it you would need to destroy its atomic structure to bring it down.
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Psycho Mantis vs Elhaym
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Elhaym. Her powers can take down Metal Gears no problem. Plus she has physchic powers as well.
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Gohan vs Mimic
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Besides it not good to mimic Gohans power, when you need to know how to manipulate its power (think Freeza Saga when Ginyu took over Gokus body).
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I think Rice ball takes this 4/5
Keollyn
12-21-2006, 07:44 PM
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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Auto-win. By the information provide, Gemini is a Galaxy Buster and can move at the speed of light. This tid-bit of information should be an automatic disqualification.
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No, Gemini HITS with the force of exploding galaxies, but there's no evidence that that attack can DESTROY a galaxy. From my knowledge, he's destroyed no galaxy, and thus, nothing says no in the rules about that.
Lightspeed isn't against the rules. Lightspeed+ is.
Rice Ball
12-21-2006, 07:48 PM
Saint Seiya is a bit funny like that.
Personally i'd be more worried about the psychic abilities hitting Kira, even tho hes hinted to be a newtype i'm unsure if he could defend against a veteran psychic.
The most Saga has done was effortlessly destroying Death Queen Island from the pope room using a generic energy attack.
Rice Ball
12-21-2006, 07:53 PM
Do you think Miang or Elly might start a chance against Id?
I mean if Miang takes up the image of fei's mother thats gotta screw Id up even more :P
Vicious
12-21-2006, 07:55 PM
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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Saga: "Galaxian Explosion", Kira dies
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Dante vs Black Alice
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*looks at CBG post*
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
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..............?
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Psycho Mantis vs Elhaym
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more info for Psycho Mantis pls.
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Gohan vs Mimic
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Sesshoumaru
12-21-2006, 07:57 PM
Lightspeed isn't against the rules. Lightspeed+ is.
Same difference. If you're going to ban any character that moves faster than the speed of light and speed force uers, might as well ALL characters that have such speed ability.
Keollyn
12-21-2006, 07:59 PM
The problem with banning ALL people with speed ability is that we'd have no combatants.
Unless you think running doesn't involve speed...
But seriously... Speed Force users have SEVERAL more tricks with that ability. They don't just go faster you know. And effective speed force user can make even a lightspeed character move slower than a bus.
Birkin
12-21-2006, 08:13 PM
I'll just post general info on what I know, not Wiki'ing or anything:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4FKUiCoUsBs Strike Freedom's first appearance, he doesn't go SEED either. Around the term "SEED" there are alot of speculations what really is different. His abilites to react increases and it's also stated he may be able to see the future.
Psycho Mantis: Doesn't matter how fast you are, and what you're planning, he reads your mind like a book, he also accidently killed his whole village with mind telepathy when he found out his father hated him. Mantis predicts future actions. And Mantis can also teleport and go invisible
Dante: Quicksilver, a tool Dante uses, it slows everything down to the form of standing still. http://youtube.com/watch?v=MEwoLL3ZO1k&mode=related&search=
Dante also has Doppeganger, where he clones himself for more damage output.
Infinite Justice, much like Strike Freedom, same kind of mecha with different abilites. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5HYZRoTG5Wc A video of both, The RED mecha and the white with BLUE wings are Justice and Freedom, fighting the BLACK and white with RED wings. Athrun also possess the SEED
Gohan: err, he's from DBZ :o http://youtube.com/watch?v=ssvtTE83_DE
Here he's a kid
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AV5F80cNF4M Good tribute to him as well, both kid and adult version
Locard
12-21-2006, 09:47 PM
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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Saga is a freakin powerhouse, i dont see him losing to anyone below cosmic level.
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Dante vs Black Alice
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im not sure yet....
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
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Omni gear ftw
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Psycho Mantis vs Elhaym
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Based in what i read, I give this one to Psycho Mantis, he seems too broken.
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Gohan vs Mimic
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Mimic has no chance, Gohan is hella faster and can destroy him with a blast. And im not even sure if Cyke's optic blasts are enough to really hurt Gohan.
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Verdict: DRAW, I need to analyze again the Black Alice vs Dante matchup to decide
tri-sapphire
12-21-2006, 10:27 PM
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
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The battle would be over in one picosecond.
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Dante vs Black Alice
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If she was able to take Spectre's powers (which are cosmic in origin, not magic based), then wouldn't she be able to steal just about anyone's? I think I'll just pass on this fight.
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
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As mentioned, Miang is insanely powerful.
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Psycho Mantis vs Elhaym
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I pity Elly. If Psycho Mantis decides to use his powers to tamper with Elly's mind...she'll have to go through that whole guilt thing again after her ether tears Mantis apart.
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Gohan vs Mimic
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Verdict: Team Rice Ball!
Wesley
12-21-2006, 10:42 PM
Team Infinite_Justice
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom from GSD
Dante from DMC3
Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice, also from GSD
Psycho Mantis from MGS1
Gohan from DBZ
vs
Team Rice Ball
Mimic (Exiles)
Elhaym Van Houten (Xenogears)
Gemini Saga (Saint Seiya)
Miang (Xenogears)
Black Alice (DC)
Kira Yamato in Strike Freedom vs Gemini Saga
---------------------------commentary-----------------------------------
Auto-win. By the information provide, Gemini is a Galaxy Buster and can move at the speed of light. This tid-bit of information should be an automatic disqualification.
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Dante vs Black Alice
---------------------------commentary-----------------------------------
Disqualification.
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Athrun Zala in Infinite Justice vs Miang
---------------------------commentary-----------------------------------
Miang would win, but I'm disqualifying this person.
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Psycho Manstis vs Elhaym
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Elly would win, but I am disqualifying this person.
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Gohan vs Mimic
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Gohan would win despite Mimic copying his power. And I am disqualifying this person.
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Agrees with this guy.
Sesshoumaru
12-21-2006, 11:02 PM
The problem with banning ALL people with speed ability is that we'd have no combatants.
Unless you think running doesn't involve speed...
But seriously... Speed Force users have SEVERAL more tricks with that ability. They don't just go faster you know. And effective speed force user can make even a lightspeed character move slower than a bus.
If that's the case, if I picked PC Superman, would he have been allowed?
Vynjira
12-21-2006, 11:38 PM
Gohan vs Mimic
Not sure on this one. Is Mimic's copying power limitless? Would he be able to match Gohan's physical strength as well as his ki?No, he has been shown to be rather limited outside of the Mutant Geneome. However he is not incapable of copying outside his Geneome. Altho he whatever powers he can copy are normally 1/5th the persons original power. (If I remember correctly)
tri-sapphire
12-21-2006, 11:49 PM
No, he has been shown to be rather limited outside of the Mutant Geneome. However he is not incapable of copying outside his Geneome. Altho he whatever powers he can copy are normally 1/5th the persons original power. (If I remember correctly)
If that's the case, then Gohan takes this match.
Keollyn
12-22-2006, 03:57 AM
If that's the case, if I picked PC Superman, would he have been allowed?
Umm.... Are you serious?
PC Superman is in no way close to the example I just gave, and he CLEARLY rapes the rules. Stop being a hard case and just leave it alone.
Endless Mike
12-22-2006, 07:45 AM
Wait, if Mimic has Iceman's powers, doesn't that mean that he can't really be killed by Gohan and could freeze him easily?
Or does he only have the powers of the early Iceman?
Rice Ball
12-22-2006, 07:48 AM
He has his powers but i don't think he could use them on the same level as the original. He couldn't reform himself etc.
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