View Full Version : Majin Dark Schneider vs. the Godhand (Berserk)
Endless Mike
11-29-2006, 04:53 PM
How this goes?
Some Info on Godhand? I Wiki'ed it but only found info about the characters like their names and stuff but no abilities/strength, etc.
Some Info on Godhand? I Wiki'ed it but only found info about the characters like their names and stuff but no abilities/strength, etc.
1 (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=2327395&postcount=3)
2 (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=2330301&postcount=9)
3 (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=6162404&postcount=25)
post to short blahblahblah.
1 (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=2327395&postcount=3)
2 (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=2330301&postcount=9)
3 (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=6162404&postcount=25)
post to short blahblahblah.
Hmm... from what I see nothing of this impresses me too much to think DS could not take this. My vote goes to him simply because he can basically do all this kind of stuff with the Judas Pain or at least protect himself against it and this at high speed.
Orion
11-29-2006, 06:15 PM
havnt seen anything from the godhand that would put them on ds's level.
Kisame
11-29-2006, 06:20 PM
the judas pain should protect him from them. So ds would win.
vagnard
11-29-2006, 07:14 PM
It's hard to say because we haven't seen the limits of Godhand but they certainly have showed impressing things at the level of DS like manipulating time and space. In Berserk Universe they are the second most powerful beings after Idea of Evil. They are the "angels" of Berserk just like Lucifer, Gabriel or others could be from Bastard Universe. Judas Pain won't work in the same way in every universe....for example there is a "anti-autowin" shield...but that is related with the level of the enemies of Bastard Universe...that doesn't mean that cosmic characters from other universes can't will him out of the existance.
If the laws of Bastard apply to Berserk and viceversa..then I could say that Godhand will just control DS's destiny and make him die in a double K.O against the Adam of Light.
Orion
11-29-2006, 07:42 PM
so theyre gunna manipulate the adam of light into killing ds right....this a straight up fight not call for help from other people fight.
vagnard
11-29-2006, 07:56 PM
Manipulate destiny is one of Godhand's powers...they hardly involve themselves. It's not like they ask people if they wanted their fates to be manipulated...they just alter the time and space to do that thing. If people say that Judas Priest will nullify every attack from Godhand then I could say the same: they will just control his destiny and make him die. That's what happen when you join 2 universes with absolutes rules.
I like to see DS scans showing him manipulating time and space at cosmic scale because all the scans just show him doing destructive blasts or physical attacks. I'd like to see someone like DS creating pocket dimensions, creating Eclipses, sending attacks through dimensional portals, controlling destiny, etc
Orion
11-29-2006, 09:26 PM
u honestly think that if gutz is outside there powers that dark fucking schneider cant be lol.
vagnard
11-29-2006, 10:58 PM
Guts isn't "outside"....just like everything he is part of Idea's plan. Godhand are just letting him live....even Slann said that he was interesting and they had fun with him. Guts would have died long time ago in the Eclipse if it wasn't thanks to the Skull Knight.
In any case we don't know how much powerful Guts will became in the future...but right now Godhand has showed more impressive abilities than DS....I still have to see a scan of DS doing time and space manipulation of large scale like creating pocket dimensions, Eclipses, destroying matter creating black holes, etc.
Guts isn't "outside"....just like everything he is part of Idea's plan. Godhand are just letting him live....even Slann said that he was interesting and they had fun with him. Guts would have died long time ago in the Eclipse if it wasn't thanks to the Skull Knight.
In any case we don't know how much powerful Guts will became in the future...but right now Godhand has showed more impressive abilities than DS....I still have to see a scan of DS doing time and space manipulation of large scale like creating pocket dimensions, Eclipses, destroying matter creating black holes, etc.
Why does DS need to show that if its not of any meaning or emphasis in the Bastard!! verse? Does that mean he's less strong? It's enough if he can shield himself against such attacks so he won't be affected.
Besides, he has already been trapped into a different dimension where there was no air, light or water. He survived there for quite some times before being able to come out. That was long before Judas Pain and even long before the time skip of 4 years after meeting up with Satan.
Also, your claim that Judas Pain can't work in the same way in the Berserk universe like it does in the Bastard!! verse is baseless cause I could say the same about God Hand's powers not having the same effect in the Bastard!! verse. This is neutral battleground so I assume both powers and physical and spiritual dynamics work the same way they would in their own universes.
DS kills normal Angels and Devils on a whim and they are beings originating from other planes of existance or different dimensions. Their bodies are merely avatars of their true form, in order to manifest in the human world of Bastard!! they need to scale down the vibrations of the divine matter they are made of.
As for simply manipulating DS' destiny. It's not going to work simply like that. Devils often attack with spells that have a "vacuum effect". Vacuum effect means the manipulation of a situation or a being or an incident in the past, present or future. Someone's "destiny" is nothing more than a set chain of events throughout that person's life in a certain order. Vacuum effect spells can destroy and or manipulate destiny or parts of it as well. Thanks to Judas Pain, DS can guard himself against it or even do it himself.
You won't see scans of him casing awesome spells or doing some long monologuing about what he has just done. Casting spells is a mere consequence of motions and movement for both Angels and Devils. Even with a simple bodyblow he could make it so that his opponent's armor or whatever never existed in the first place. The opponent - provided he's a demon, devil or angel - can guard himself against it with his own Dispel Bound; the shielding ability the Judas Pain gives Dark Schneider.
Manipulating the Dispel Bound is like writing and re-writing a computer program. You write a code which contains the effect the shield shall have and then you are protected against it. Angels of Devils attack in a similar manner, they use their spells (motions) packed with an effect to destroy the shield, meaining, they re-write the code of the shield and break through it.
All of that happened in the fight between Majin DS and Uriel and it happened at hyperspeed. This requires incredible logistical capabilities, meaing not only hyper fast movement but also reaction and reflexes and thinking at such a high speed. Otherwise it would be impossible to write and re-write the shields of the Dispel Bound.
In all honestly, I still don't see how God Hand could do anything to DS. Dark Schneider has probably more chances of fighting them than vice versa.
vagnard
11-30-2006, 06:58 AM
Why does DS need to show that if its not of any meaning or emphasis in the Bastard!! verse? Does that mean he's less strong? It's enough if he can shield himself against such attacks so he won't be affected.
Because if he doesn't have that level of attacks he is below Godhand. When you fight cosmic you need THAT kind of attacks to survive....or how you will survive against an attack that manipulate the same core of the reality. If all the attacks work like you said then Godhand just will manipulate DS's destiny and make kill himself.
Besides, he has already been trapped into a different dimension where there was no air, light or water. He survived there for quite some times before being able to come out. That was long before Judas Pain and even long before the time skip of 4 years after meeting up with Satan.
You said that yourself....DS had trouble to exit from that dimension. Godhand can create pockets dimensions like nothing. How Judas Pain would help DS?. There is no "anti pocket dimension" shield in the description given by Raphael. And of course Dispel Bound will have limits....or are you saying that "anti-instant win" would work against a being like Living Tribunal?. You can't bind every being to your laws....specially if that being is way more powerful than you.
Also, your claim that Judas Pain can't work in the same way in the Berserk universe like it does in the Bastard!! verse is baseless cause I could say the same about God Hand's powers not having the same effect in the Bastard!! verse. This is neutral battleground so I assume both powers and physical and spiritual dynamics work the same way they would in their own universes.
On the contrary...I just say if we count Dispel Bound then I could say I could say the same for Berserk Universe....then Godhand will just control DS's destiny and make destroy himself.
DS kills normal Angels and Devils on a whim and they are beings originating from other planes of existance or different dimensions. Their bodies are merely avatars of their true form, in order to manifest in the human world of Bastard!! they need to scale down the vibrations of the divine matter they are made of.
"Cosmics" in Bastard aren't as powerful as other universes...the fact that God and Lucifer have the same power shows there isn't an omnipotent being in Bastard....in the case of Bastard Godhand are an extension of Idea of Evil...the omnipotent God of Berserk. Godhand doesn't even have a body to destroy. They exist in the Vortex...linked under the sphere of influence of Idea.
As for simply manipulating DS' destiny. It's not going to work simply like that. Devils often attack with spells that have a "vacuum effect". Vacuum effect means the manipulation of a situation or a being or an incident in the past, present or future. Someone's "destiny" is nothing more than a set chain of events throughout that person's life in a certain order. Vacuum effect spells can destroy and or manipulate destiny or parts of it as well. Thanks to Judas Pain, DS can guard himself against it or even do it himself.
That doesn't work in that way...that are just "spells". Destiny manipulation is linked with Idea of Evil who is an omnipotent being....you can guess what law has precedence here. Godhand doesn't just use a spell to "make destiny manipulation"...it's just happen...DS will don't have time to react when he is already killing himself.
And the description given by Raphael doesn't say anything like that. I like to actually see DS countering destiny manipulation.
You won't see scans of him casing awesome spells or doing some long monologuing about what he has just done. Casting spells is a mere consequence of motions and movement for both Angels and Devils. Even with a simple bodyblow he could make it so that his opponent's armor or whatever never existed in the first place. The opponent - provided he's a demon, devil or angel - can guard himself against it with his own Dispel Bound; the shielding ability the Judas Pain gives Dark Schneider.
In the description just a few shield were described...you just can't assume that Dispel Bound will give DS protection against everything. Specially when Bastard World works under a system of spells....they have "tangible" attacks....in the case of Idea and Godhand their will is their power. There is nothing for DS to counter in first place.
Manipulating the Dispel Bound is like writing and re-writing a computer program. You write a code which contains the effect the shield shall have and then you are protected against it. Angels of Devils attack in a similar manner, they use their spells (motions) packed with an effect to destroy the shield, meaining, they re-write the code of the shield and break through it.
If a being can manipulate the space-time i can see Godhand re-writting Dispel Bound as they are capable to control destiny. The very fact that they need to pack effects in their spells shows that they aren't that powerful....Godhand in other hand only has showed only one limitation: they don't know all the paths because they aren't Idea....they aren't omnipotent of omniscient... they carry the will of a superior being and their power is linked with that being...you could say Godhand are Idea's arms and they do a similar work than Spectre and Living Tribunal...as a medium between the omnipotent being and our reality.
All of that happened in the fight between Majin DS and Uriel and it happened at hyperspeed. This requires incredible logistical capabilities, meaing not only hyper fast movement but also reaction and reflexes and thinking at such a high speed. Otherwise it would be impossible to write and re-write the shields of the Dispel Bound.
Speed is Meaningless against such kind of cosmics that aren't bound by the normal laws of space and time. What DS's speed means to guys that can control time?
In all honestly, I still don't see how God Hand could do anything to DS. Dark Schneider has probably more chances of fighting them than vice versa.
You are the one who is doing baseless assumptions. Under what criterion you said that Godhand "can't do anything to DS"?...specially when they have showed a level of power and status way beyond DS.... They manipulate time and space at will...they have no body to kill...they are linked with an omnipotent being, etc. Bastard is just like Slayers with more speed but their spells aren't even that destructive....i still have to see a spell in Bastard so destructive as Giga Slave for example.
Keollyn
11-30-2006, 07:24 AM
You said that yourself....DS had trouble to exit from that dimension.
This was Dark Schneider WAY back in the early parts of the series. Long before he even found out about his half-demon lineage.
"Cosmics" in Bastard aren't as powerful as other universes...the fact that God and Lucifer have the same power shows there isn't an omnipotent being in Bastard....
I'm not really sure where the whole "they're equal" is coming from. From what I understand, they're acting quite like the God-Satan of Judeo-Christianity. They're playing a game of chess.. and the angels and demons are their pieces. Just because they came to an agreement doesn't say one is or isn't omnipotent.
Edit: And it's Satan, not Lucifer. Dark Schneider is in the body of Lucifer.
Specially when Bastard World works under a system of spells....they have "tangible" attacks
How much of Bastard have you actually read?
Bastard is just like Slayers with more speed but their spells aren't even that destructive....i still have to see a spell in Bastard so destructive as Giga Slave for example.
See above.
Because if he doesn't have that level of attacks he is below Godhand. When you fight cosmic you need THAT kind of attacks to survive....or how you will survive against an attack that manipulate the same core of the reality. If all the attacks work like you said then Godhand just will manipulate DS's destiny and make kill himself.
You said that yourself....DS had trouble to exit from that dimension. Godhand can create pockets dimensions like nothing. How Judas Pain would help DS?. There is no "anti pocket dimension" shield in the description given by Raphael. And of course Dispel Bound will have limits....or are you saying that "anti-instant win" would work against a being like Living Tribunal?. You can't bind every being to your laws....specially if that being is way more powerful than you.
Just because it wasn't in Raphael's description doesn't mean its not possible. As he said, DS and Uriel were creating countless of shields with the Dispel Bound, it would be literally impossible to name all of their effects and abilities; also look at my description of how Dispel Bound works similar to a written computer code.
And sure, it would work against the Living Tribunal. Of course the Living Tribunal would have no problem to rewrite and destroy a shield that guards against "instant win". But as long as DS' opponent isn't fast enough to overcome his regeneration of his body and the Dispel Bound shields, it's stalemate cause he will simply re-write the shield or build up others. That's why I say speed DOES matter in this fight.
On the contrary...I just say if we count Dispel Bound then I could say I could say the same for Berserk Universe....then Godhand will just control DS's destiny and make destroy himself.
"Cosmics" in Bastard aren't as powerful as other universes...the fact that God and Lucifer have the same power shows there isn't an omnipotent being in Bastard....in the case of Bastard Godhand are an extension of Idea of Evil...the omnipotent God of Berserk. Godhand doesn't even have a body to destroy. They exist in the Vortex...linked under the sphere of influence of Idea.
As I said, controlling DS' destiny ins't something that works like that just so easily. Go read in my directory thread about Bastard!!. Under the description of "Devils" the vacuum effect is explained. Controlling destiny is nothing but a form of reality control or bending since destiny is nothing but part of reality, a set chain of events for a person or a thing on a plane of existence. If DS can guard against that when fighting with devils, why shouldn't he be able to when fighting against God Hand?
Oh, and by the way, you can't claim the cosmics in Bastard!! aren't as powerful as in other comics or manga just based on the fact that Satan and God have the same powers. First, it was NEVER stated that Satan and God have the same powers. If you would read the manga then you'd know it. Second, the manga isn't finished. Who tells you that there isn't a being more powerful than God and Satan? Recently names like "Metatron" and "God of Demons" have fallen and both are characters or entities that haven't been introduced or explained closer yet. Claiming Bastard!!-verse is weaker based on this is just pure assumption of your side.
That doesn't work in that way...that are just "spells". Destiny manipulation is linked with Idea of Evil who is an omnipotent being....you can guess what law has precedence here. Godhand doesn't just use a spell to "make destiny manipulation"...it's just happen...DS will don't have time to react when he is already killing himself.
And the description given by Raphael doesn't say anything like that. I like to actually see DS countering destiny manipulation.
"Just spells"? Spells in Bastard!! draw their power from universal forces, just like Angels and Devils have the cosmic power as their powersource for their spells or actions. It doesn't really matter if destiny manipulation is linked to the Idea of Evil who is an omnipotent being. They have to destroy or rewrite possible shieldings against such attacks first and if DS is faster than they can destroy the shields, he will simply rebuild it, thats why I said speed still matters in the fight. It doesn't matter if it "just happens" because God Hand wants it to happen, if the shield guarding says "no". Dispel Bound is an ability that draws energy from the cosmos and the ether itself, just like Angels and Demons use this power to make their attack work. In Berserk its an omnipotent being, in Bastard!! its the very fabric of existence.
Now, if you go claim that God Hand are omnipotent beings because their source of power is an omnipotent being that would make the whole fight redundant and we could stop talking at this point because fighting an omnipotent is impossible.
If a being can manipulate the space-time i can see Godhand re-writting Dispel Bound as they are capable to control destiny. The very fact that they need to pack effects in their spells shows that they aren't that powerful....
Uhm, sure they can re-write the Dispel Bound. Many beings can do that, even in the Bastard!! verse. The problem is that it is useless if DS can restore the shields faster than they can destroy or re-write it. That's the whole key of Dispel Bound.
I don't get what you want to say with the second part. If they need to pack effects in their spells they aren't that powerful? Majin DS doesn't "need" to pack a spell in anything. Magic is a natural consequence of the motions of a devil. They don't cast a spell or do something similar. They make a handmotion and whatever they want happens, depending on the tier of the demon, devil or angel. It's exactly the same, there is not necessarily a set effect for a spell that says: "it allows to me to trap you inside a barrier for 24 hours" (just a stupid example). They simply "will" it, just like God Hand uses their will power to make their powers work (wasn't that what you said?). General Porno Diane has done the exact same thing, when DS pre Judas Pain was attacking her, a single hand motion opened a gap in the dimensions and the blast went there, just because she wanted it.
Godhand in other hand only has showed only one limitation: they don't know all the paths because they aren't Idea....they aren't omnipotent of omniscient... they carry the will of a superior being and their power is linked with that being...you could say Godhand are Idea's arms and they do a similar work than Spectre and Living Tribunal...as a medium between the omnipotent being and our reality.
Speed is Meaningless against such kind of cosmics that aren't bound by the normal laws of space and time. What DS's speed means to guys that can control time?
Okay, now that's information I can work with. Of course for Demons and Angels there are limitations to how far they can manipulate reality. Time stopping or time control has only been a feat of Luzifer so far. I'm not sure if and how well DS can guard against that at all. Thing is, Dispel Bound are shields that effect the use and the area directly around it. Even if you would twist and change the fragments of reality around the shield (with the user inside), the shield itself just as the user would be unaffected unless the shield is destroyed or re-written. Now, there are limits to the durability of those shields, too, even if they have astounding effects. But thats why I said before that speed matters in such a fight cause the shields can be restored.
Now, for you claiming God Hand are on a level with Living Tribunal and Spectre, I can't reply anything to this since I don't know anything about the American comics. Just to be sure this doesn't become an one-sided debate, I would like to hear some more oppinions on both DS and on God Hand being on a level with Living Tribunal. If that's the case, then DS in his Majin Form most likely loses, unless he's allowed to summon the Dragon Knight (but that's current manga material, so far the Dragon Knight has not been defeated and it managed to equal the power of Uriel in the recent volume who already has the power to destroy the galaxy).
You are the one who is doing baseless assumptions. Under what criterion you said that Godhand "can't do anything to DS"?...specially when they have showed a level of power and status way beyond DS.... They manipulate time and space at will...they have no body to kill...they are linked with an omnipotent being, etc. Bastard is just like Slayers with more speed but their spells aren't even that destructive....i still have to see a spell in Bastard so destructive as Giga Slave for example.
Read what I wrote above, time control might be a key to destroy Majin Dark Schneider.
As for Bastard!! being just like Slayers with more speed, I can't tell. Don't read or watch Slayers, but then again, for not being as destructive as Giga Slave, we can come back to that once the manga is finished. And its still far from coming to an end.
As a fazit for now I wanted to say that I never claimed Dark Schneider would win the fight against God Hand. I just wanted some elaboration on what God Hand could do to DS specifically. For what I can say now, DS could lose or possibly stale mate. I'd like to hear oppinions from more people.
Endless Mike
11-30-2006, 06:11 PM
From what I've read the Godhand are nowhere near the power of the Living Tribunal, they took a few seconds to destroy a city, while LT easily destroys universes.
Orion
11-30-2006, 06:37 PM
^^true,ds isnt exactly a pushover i really dont see him losing as easily as vagnard says.
vagnard
12-02-2006, 06:30 PM
This was Dark Schneider WAY back in the early parts of the series. Long before he even found out about his half-demon lineage.
I was answering his own example.
I'm not really sure where the whole "they're equal" is coming from. From what I understand, they're acting quite like the God-Satan of Judeo-Christianity. They're playing a game of chess.. and the angels and demons are their pieces. Just because they came to an agreement doesn't say one is or isn't omnipotent.
From what i have read in this forum they said they couldn't kill each other. In that case neither of them is omnipotent.
How much of Bastard have you actually read?
Very little...But with the info given by Z~K and other people in this forum I can't see DS winning against guys who can manipulate time and space at will. If you can provide me a scan like that then I could understand
See above.
Giga Slave can destroy the universe...I haven't see anything like that in Bastard. Can you provide me a link?
Just because it wasn't in Raphael's description doesn't mean its not possible. As he said, DS and Uriel were creating countless of shields with the Dispel Bound, it would be literally impossible to name all of their effects and abilities; also look at my description of how Dispel Bound works similar to a written computer code.
And sure, it would work against the Living Tribunal. Of course the Living Tribunal would have no problem to rewrite and destroy a shield that guards against "instant win". But as long as DS' opponent isn't fast enough to overcome his regeneration of his body and the Dispel Bound shields, it's stalemate cause he will simply re-write the shield or build up others. That's why I say speed DOES matter in this fight.
No. It wouldn't work againt Living Tribunal who is nigh omnipotent and can do practically anything except surpass his own creator: TOAA. DS isn't even near that kind of power....Instant win probably has a range...that goes from attacks equivalent to zero to attacks with powers equivalent to the source of Dispel Bound....a being way more powerful than anything in Bastard can bypass any of their "laws". LT just have to think DS out of the existance.
As I said, controlling DS' destiny ins't something that works like that just so easily. Go read in my directory thread about Bastard!!. Under the description of "Devils" the vacuum effect is explained. Controlling destiny is nothing but a form of reality control or bending since destiny is nothing but part of reality, a set chain of events for a person or a thing on a plane of existence. If DS can guard against that when fighting with devils, why shouldn't he be able to when fighting against God Hand?
oh, and by the way, you can't claim the cosmics in Bastard!! aren't as powerful as in other comics or manga just based on the fact that Satan and God have the same powers.
First, it was NEVER stated that Satan and God have the same powers. If you would read the manga then you'd know it. Second, the manga isn't finished. Who tells you that there isn't a being more powerful than God and Satan? Recently names like "Metatron" and "God of Demons" have fallen and both are characters or entities that haven't been introduced or explained closer yet. Claiming Bastard!!-verse is weaker based on this is just pure assumption of your side.
If God and Satan can't defeat each other then they aren't omnipotent because that means they can do everything. If other beings like Metatron are more powerful than God and Satan that proves they aren't omnipotent too. I'm just saying they haven't show the cosmic level of Berserk given the scans you have posted in the FAQ of Bastard....if they have cosmic level feats...then it's my mistake.
"Just spells"? Spells in Bastard!! draw their power from universal forces, just like Angels and Devils have the cosmic power as their powersource for their spells or actions.
What are these universal forces?. Idea of Evil IS actually the Berserk Universe. Controlling fundamental forces of the universe isn't even comparable. Hyperstorm (a mutant of Marvel could do it) and he wasn't even close to omnipotency.
It doesn't really matter if destiny manipulation is linked to the Idea of Evil who is an omnipotent being. They have to destroy or rewrite possible shieldings against such attacks first and if DS is faster than they can destroy the shields, he will simply rebuild it,
On the contrary...this makes all the difference. A being linked with a omnipotent source can be limited by lesser laws like the writtings of shields...a omnipotent being can wish these shields never existed in first place.
This is Idea of Evil explaining to Griffith that the will of the members of Godhand is his own will.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/Berserkc83p15copy.jpg
vagnard
12-02-2006, 06:32 PM
thats why I said speed still matters in the fight. It doesn't matter if it "just happens" because God Hand wants it to happen, if the shield guarding says "no". Dispel Bound is an ability that draws energy from the cosmos and the ether itself, just like Angels and Demons use this power to make their attack work. In Berserk its an omnipotent being, in Bastard!! its the very fabric of existence.
No. The shield only can say "no" to beings that are under the level of power required to bypass the laws of Dispel Bound. If a omnipotent or nigh omnipotent being says "i don't want this shield exist anymore" the shield just dissapear.
For example...Juggernaut couldn't be stopped by any possible way....until War Hulk did it. The "law" was broken by a being that was outside the realm of possibilities of that law.
Now, if you go claim that God Hand are omnipotent beings because their source of power is an omnipotent being that would make the whole fight redundant and we could stop talking at this point because fighting an omnipotent is impossible.
No. I'm not saying that Godhand are omnipotents...I just saying that according their links with Idea and their feats you have posted in your FAQ they should be above the laws dictated by Dispel Bound. Like I said before if DS has showed feats of cosmic/universal level...then it's my mistake...but I haven't seen that before....all I have seen are flashy destructive spells. But if he has abilities that let him alter the very fabric of the reality then he could compete with Godhand.
Uhm, sure they can re-write the Dispel Bound. Many beings can do that, even in the Bastard!! verse. The problem is that it is useless if DS can restore the shields faster than they can destroy or re-write it. That's the whole key of Dispel Bound.
Speed isn't a problem to beings that can manipulate time.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/v3_ep2_p033-1.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/164copy.jpg
I don't get what you want to say with the second part. If they need to pack effects in their spells they aren't that powerful? Majin DS doesn't "need" to pack a spell in anything. Magic is a natural consequence of the motions of a devil. They don't cast a spell or do something similar. They make a handmotion and whatever they want happens, depending on the tier of the demon, devil or angel. It's exactly the same, there is not necessarily a set effect for a spell that says: "it allows to me to trap you inside a barrier for 24 hours" (just a stupid example). They simply "will" it, just like God Hand uses their will power to make their powers work (wasn't that what you said?). General Porno Diane has done the exact same thing, when DS pre Judas Pain was attacking her, a single hand motion opened a gap in the dimensions and the blast went there, just because she wanted it.
I sorry...i'm just was basing in the fact that all the feats you showed about DS were related with spells or special techniques more than the power of alter reality itself.
Okay, now that's information I can work with. Of course for Demons and Angels there are limitations to how far they can manipulate reality. Time stopping or time control has only been a feat of Luzifer so far. I'm not sure if and how well DS can guard against that at all. Thing is, Dispel Bound are shields that effect the use and the area directly around it. Even if you would twist and change the fragments of reality around the shield (with the user inside), the shield itself just as the user would be unaffected unless the shield is destroyed or re-written. Now, there are limits to the durability of those shields, too, even if they have astounding effects. But thats why I said before that speed matters in such a fight cause the shields can be restored.
Yes. They can manipulate time and space at will. And Femto for example showed that he can compress the space in a specific point. So he wouldn't just be attacking "around" the shield but in inside of it...directly to the target. It's not like they use a Kame Hame Ha that will be stopped by DS. It's more like this: "I wish DS becames a black hole"...they don't project certain kind of energy that could stopped by a external force around DS.
Now, for you claiming God Hand are on a level with Living Tribunal and Spectre, I can't reply anything to this since I don't know anything about the American comics
Uh?. I never claimed that Godhand are in the same level than LT and Spectre...I just said that they do a similar work to them in Berserk Universe...they hold a similar position as avatars of the Supreme Being's will. Their exact level can't be measured with so little info...but certainly they aren't ordinary cosmic even with the few feats we have and their position inside Berserk Universe.
(but that's current manga material, so far the Dragon Knight has not been defeated and it managed to equal the power of Uriel in the recent volume who already has the power to destroy the galaxy).
This was actually showed or stated in the manga?. Because other fans of Bastard said before that DS could move trillions times faster than Lightspeed and he could destroy planets with a single punch (and they never showed scans or back up their claims).
As for Bastard!! being just like Slayers with more speed, I can't tell. Don't read or watch Slayers, but then again, for not being as destructive as Giga Slave, we can come back to that once the manga is finished. And its still far from coming to an end.
Well..Giga Slave is a spell capable to destroy the reality where you summon The Lord of the Nightmares (the creator of Slayers Multiverse). It's hard to be above of that.
As a fazit for now I wanted to say that I never claimed Dark Schneider would win the fight against God Hand. I just wanted some elaboration on what God Hand could do to DS specifically. For what I can say now, DS could lose or possibly stale mate. I'd like to hear oppinions from more people.
You said: "I still don't see how God Hand could do anything to DS"...that's practically the same to say "Godhand can't win no matter what".
From what I've read the Godhand are nowhere near the power of the Living Tribunal, they took a few seconds to destroy a city, while LT easily destroys universes.
I never said that Godhand were in the same level of Living Tribunal...i just said they realize a similar work in Berserk Universe as avatars or representants of their God. In any case the destruction of the city was similar to the plages of Egypt...they were punishing King Gaiseric for his crimes...so they wouldn't destroy the capital in an instant. Godhand are famous for cause pain and suffering to the humans....in the sacrifices they can kill humans in a instant...but they give human bodies to lesser monster knows as apostles.
No. The shield only can say "no" to beings that are under the level of power required to bypass the laws of Dispel Bound. If a omnipotent or nigh omnipotent being says "i don't want this shield exist anymore" the shield just dissapear.
For example...Juggernaut couldn't be stopped by any possible way....until War Hulk did it. The "law" was broken by a being that was outside the realm of possibilities of that law.
Well, that's exactly what I wanted to say with that. As long as the omnipotent being doesn't decide to do something against it, it will also fall vicitm to its effects, however, since it is omnipotent, it can easily overcome the effect by the mere expression of his will. As for nigh-omnipotent beings, it differs and depends on what they can do in their neigh-omnipotent state.
No. I'm not saying that Godhand are omnipotents...I just saying that according their links with Idea and their feats you have posted in your FAQ they should be above the laws dictated by Dispel Bound. Like I said before if DS has showed feats of cosmic/universal level...then it's my mistake...but I haven't seen that before....all I have seen are flashy destructive spells. But if he has abilities that let him alter the very fabric of the reality then he could compete with Godhand.
Hm, to make it more easy for me, what exactly is the definition of a "cosmic level" being? Simly being able to destroy a galaxy? The entire universe? Or what is it and what "requirements" are implied in the definition? If you can give a satisfying answer, I'll tell you what is withing DS's capabilities and what not.
Speed isn't a problem to beings that can manipulate time.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/v3_ep2_p033-1.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/164copy.jpg
I sorry...i'm just was basing in the fact that all the feats you showed about DS were related with spells or special techniques more than the power of alter reality itself.
Yes. They can manipulate time and space at will. And Femto for example showed that he can compress the space in a specific point. So he wouldn't just be attacking "around" the shield but in inside of it...directly to the target. It's not like they use a Kame Hame Ha that will be stopped by DS. It's more like this: "I wish DS becames a black hole"...they don't project certain kind of energy that could stopped by a external force around DS.
Okay, as I said, time manipulation might prove to be a problem, but all in all, what you say is still very vague to me and lacks deeper explanation. That might not be your fault because the manga possibly hasn't reached that far in storyline yet, but still, I'm interested. Are there limits to the powers of God Hand? Where lie those limits? I think, someone else stated that it took God Hand a few hours to destroy a large city while DS is capable of destroying entire countries within seconds or even destroy planets. So that means, there must be a certain degree to which the power of God Hand proves to be efficient but then it either is limited or lacks a certain scale of "destruction".
Uh?. I never claimed that Godhand are in the same level than LT and Spectre...I just said that they do a similar work to them in Berserk Universe...they hold a similar position as avatars of the Supreme Being's will. Their exact level can't be measured with so little info...but certainly they aren't ordinary cosmic even with the few feats we have and their position inside Berserk Universe.
Okay, then. My bad for misunderstanding your post.
This was actually showed or stated in the manga?. Because other fans of Bastard said before that DS could move trillions times faster than Lightspeed and he could destroy planets with a single punch (and they never showed scans or back up their claims).
I personally cleared up most of these myths because they are wrong or worded wrong. DS' speed was never stated literally. However, Raphael is a Seraphim and they can move at light speed, although most likely only in their Augoeides form, so while watchin DS in his human form he was barely able to follow his movements, which still speaks for DS' speed of movement, reaction and thought. But the trillion times faster than Lightspeed is bull.
Destroying planets with a single punch, I don't know, since he has never done so. But when striking Uriel with a bare punch it easily had the power of a nuclear warhead and caused a huge explosion which severely damaged one of the levels of Hell.
Now, if we come to spells now, there are plenty of them he could use to destroy a planet. "Black Sabbath" could do the job, I'd believe "Dark Caine" is on a similar level. If DS was allowed to summon the Dragon Knight - a huge biomechanical weapon with magical feats - it even puts him on Galaxy level threat, considering how he was equalling Uriels Augoeides from which Michael herself said that it was already powerful enough to destroy the Galaxy.
If you demand scans of those claims, I'll be willing to pick something up for you.
Well..Giga Slave is a spell capable to destroy the reality where you summon The Lord of the Nightmares (the creator of Slayers Multiverse). It's hard to be above of that.
While not having read or watched Slayers myself, I've heard a bit about Giga Slave and I also noticed how the opinions on its power differed. That's why I take your words with a grain of salt.
However, so far there is no spell in Bastard!! or a similar thing that could destroy the entire universe (can't say multiverse since there is no such thing in the Bastard!! reality)
You said: "I still don't see how God Hand could do anything to DS"...that's practically the same to say "Godhand can't win no matter what".
I wouldn't say "...no matter what", since I'm willing to debate. The only thing is that it's still too vague for me to conclude a winner in this match. To me it is as best stalemate between the two sides right now. I don't see DS having all that many chances to attack God Hand right now, either.
The problem I have is, that there are lying one and a half manga volume on my hard drive in Japanese and I have no one to translate it for me since it could give a further hint at DS's new powers.
Another thing - even if it would only be speculation - what do you reckon one would have to do in order to even hurt, damage or destroy God Hand? So far I've heard you defending them but you never made any agreements that they can be touched at all unless it's an omnipotent being and that, well, is just plain boring and cheap, just like all omnipotents.
I never said that Godhand were in the same level of Living Tribunal...i just said they realize a similar work in Berserk Universe as avatars or representants of their God. In any case the destruction of the city was similar to the plages of Egypt...they were punishing King Gaiseric for his crimes...so they wouldn't destroy the capital in an instant. Godhand are famous for cause pain and suffering to the humans....in the sacrifices they can kill humans in a instant...but they give human bodies to lesser monster knows as apostles.
Aha, interesting. As I said before, I apologize for the misunderstanding with the Living Tribunal thing.
Goodfellow
12-03-2006, 05:47 AM
I don't think the God hand has shown yet anything as impressive as that Schneider is capable of.
Besides, Skull Knight isn't dead, is he?
There is one thing though, God hand always have the backup of casuallity, so if Schneider doesn't stand outside of casuality, then he he shouldn't be able to win. Also, to be outside the laws of casuality, no other person should be able to influense Schneider as well (that's btw Guts biggest problem, he might be born outside casuality, but the people around him are not, thus he is under the influense of casuality. I reckon he'll die against Griffith reborn. But that will of course just make him angrier, and when he go to the bottom of hell, he'll procedd to kick the ass of the idea of evil.
You know I'm right^^)
Anyway, Scheider may not be influensed of casuality, becouse then he'll probably lose (God works in mysterious ways), but besides that he, himself have to stand outside of the stream, or whatever you might call casuality, no other person may affect him as well. Otherwise, this person, who is affected by casuality, may affect the outcome of the fight.
escamoh
12-03-2006, 06:05 AM
agreed with post above
Oh, just noticed there was a reply above vagnard's last post. Sorry for the confused order I'm replying in. ^^
From what i have read in this forum they said they couldn't kill each other. In that case neither of them is omnipotent.
First off, its always better to read the manga. Even my directory can't bring you all information of the manga cause then I could simply rip all my volumes apart and scan the entire thing. Which I'm not doing.
Second thing, just because they "can't" kill each other, doesn't mean, they are not omnipotent. In a manga there is still such a thing as a plot. And the plot in Bastard!! goes a followed:
Good and Evil have fought against each other from the start of time. Neither side could triumph over the other until God made Man and gave him the ability to chose his path in life. This meant, humans could chose either Good or Evil and it also meant they could be manipulated.
The fighting between Good and Evil continued, neither side managed to achieve victory yet. God had a plan. He decided to bring his son - the Adam of Light - down to the humans to help them (and eventually bring them to the side of Good), to decide the war, because, if the majority of humans have good souls, then the power of the divine legions rises and the strength of the dark armys of Hell diminishes (God deciding such a thing just like that should at least prove he is nigh-omnipotent to doubters, I personally thing that it proves his omnipotence because he is dictating a law over his evil counterpart just like that and it happens).
Now, God is a just God (just like it the Bible) and a totally fair motherfucker, so Satan comes and says: "Since you are a just God, you will allow our side to do exactly the same and when you can bring the Adam of Light, we can bring our son of Hell, the Adam of Darkness! That is Dark Schneider.
Since God is just and all, he obviously agrees (if he wasn't that fair, he could've simply said "no, stfu", but he didn't. Also, we know Luzifer/Satan is a manipulative bastard and he knows God better than anyone else.). God sets up the universal law that shall not be broken by either of sides: Both sides can send their Adams and convince the humans to join either side and only the Adams duke out the fight between Good and Evil. That's why neither God nor Satan have tried to elimiate each other yet, not because they are not omnipotent. :notrust
It is so that both sides have the same opportunities to win this fight and God lets the humans decide where to join and at the same time have the eternal fight taken care of between the Adams of each side.
Now, this agreement doesn't go without loop-holes, of course. God and Satan have sticked to the plan so far, but the plan never said, they can't attack each others troops or the humans themselfes, since it was only that neither God nor Satan can't attack each other according to the agreement.
Meanwhile, God has started the third Armaggeddon while DS was send to Hell to fulfil his destiny as the Adam of Darkness. DS spend some time in Hell, according to the plan he - as the bearer of the last piece of Judas Pain - should come there, unite the Judas Pain and open the Gates of Hell to free Satan and his legions and then his life would've been worthless for Satan, since he is a bastard himself and already had plans to use a loophole in his agreement with God, such as creating the Negative Genesis (that leads to far, so I'll stop here).
Anyway, it didn't pan out like that, DS came, but instead of losing his piece of the Judas Pain, he absorbed 6 others from the Demon Kings. The only King who was spared is Beelzebub. Still, Hell's Gate opens, Satan and his army gets out and Satan immediately starts heading for Eden, devouring planet after planet on his way. Beelzebub is the highest minister of Satan and takes care of business in Hell; DS manages to escape Hell and travels the earth.
Meanwhile, four years have passed on earth (time runs much slower in Hell) and both Angels and Devils have killed almost all of human kind. DS believes all his friends to be dead. He vows that he will kill every fucking angel and devil.
In the meanwhile, God has send his Adam of Light to earth, too, but there was no encounter between him and DS yet. Also, DS is stubborn and does what he wants, so far he is wavering between is actual job of defeating the Adam of Light and destroying both Heaven and Hell himself.
I know, very complicated, but I tried to make it simple. Just because God and Satan stick to their agreement in a sort of treaty doesn't mean they are NOT omnipotent.
continued:
Very little...But with the info given by Z~K and other people in this forum I can't see DS winning against guys who can manipulate time and space at will. If you can provide me a scan like that then I could understand
Dark Schneider hasn't shown those abilities directly or explicite. He can read minds but that doesn't count as space/time manipulation. ^^; The only one who manipulated space and time at will yet was Luzifer/Satan. General Porno Diane did it to some scale, too, but then again, this is Majin DS VS God Hand.
However, I can't also say, he can't. Cause, he obviously survived his fight against Porno Diane, who was able to manipulate at least space, so that means he somehow overcame her abilities.
Before you ask why it hasn't been shown in the Bastard!! verse yet and why everything concentrates on flashy destructive blasts and energy beams - the answer is simple.
When fighting angels and devils, you will hardly fuck around and waste time manipulating space and time against beings who can do the fucking same thing. You strike them with the most distructive force available in order to break through their shields, evaporate their bodies and hit their Eternal Atoms to wipe them out of existance. Otherwise they would just regenerate and come back. For further info, read in my directory - Important Termini -> Eternal Atoms.
Giga Slave can destroy the universe...I haven't see anything like that in Bastard. Can you provide me a link?
Said it in my previous posts, some people seem to think different about the power and workings of Giga Slave. I don't know enough about it, please bring some people here who know both Slayers and Berserk for that matter, it would help this debate going farther a bit. : /
No. It wouldn't work againt Living Tribunal who is nigh omnipotent and can do practically anything except surpass his own creator: TOAA. DS isn't even near that kind of power....Instant win probably has a range...that goes from attacks equivalent to zero to attacks with powers equivalent to the source of Dispel Bound....a being way more powerful than anything in Bastard can bypass any of their "laws". LT just have to think DS out of the existance.
Okay, but this isn't DS VS Living Tribunal, but God Hand. So, unless they aren't at a level of Living Tribunal, which you denied earlier, Dark Schneider should at least have a chance, right? :P
If God and Satan can't defeat each other then they aren't omnipotent because that means they can do everything. If other beings like Metatron are more powerful than God and Satan that proves they aren't omnipotent too. I'm just saying they haven't show the cosmic level of Berserk given the scans you have posted in the FAQ of Bastard....if they have cosmic level feats...then it's my mistake.
Yes. Yes, it's your mistake. Just because they don't defeat each other, doesn't mean they CAN'T. As for Satan, he's the only one where I'm willing to say that he might NOT be omnipotent, simply due to the fact that he was thrown into Hell when it was already inhabitated by demons and monsters far more powerful than the strongest angels God has in his army. A name has fallen - The God of Demons - who is yet an unknown person or entity. It is speculated that he was the original ruler of Hell before Satan took control there (after all, he's just a fallen angel and doesn't come from Hell originally).
Meaning, there might indeed be another Omnipotent being just like God and they came to terms to be fair and not simply rule out each other with a mere thought. Or maybe, if they did that, it wouldn't work and destroy the fragment of existance because two Omnipotent beings using their powers fully would contradict each other. I don't know yet.
And as I asked before - what is the defintion for "cosmic level"?
What are these universal forces?. Idea of Evil IS actually the Berserk Universe. Controlling fundamental forces of the universe isn't even comparable. Hyperstorm (a mutant of Marvel could do it) and he wasn't even close to omnipotency.
On the contrary...this makes all the difference. A being linked with a omnipotent source can be limited by lesser laws like the writtings of shields...a omnipotent being can wish these shields never existed in first place.
This is Idea of Evil explaining to Griffith that the will of the members of Godhand is his own will.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/Berserkc83p15copy.jpg
Err... so that means, if they carry out the will of Idea of Evil and have access to the same powers and just work as the arms and legs, then they ARE omnipotent. Or what? Sorry, this really confuses me. You just said, a being linked with a omnipotent source can be limited by lesser laws like the writing of shields, such as Dispel Bound. Okay. That would mean, God Hand are EITHER that said limited being only linked to Idea of Evil, meaning, Dark Schneiders Dispel Bound works on them OR they ARE omnipotent beings with access to the same powers of Idea of Evil, meaning, they are just avatars of the omnipotent being, with the same power.
Elaborate this a bit clearer for me, cause earlier you said they can't fall victim to Dispel Bound, which would mean they are omnipotent beings, which you denied later, meaning, they have to be lesser beings only linked to the omnipotent powers of Idea of Evil. Which also implies, Dispel Bound works on them. Very contradicting. :/
I don't think the God hand has shown yet anything as impressive as that Schneider is capable of.
Besides, Skull Knight isn't dead, is he?
There is one thing though, God hand alwasy have to backup of casuallity, so if Schneider isn't outside the strand of casuality, then he he shouldn't be able to win. Also, to be outside the laws of casuality, no other person should be able to relate to Schneider as well (that's btw Guts biggest problem, he might be born outside casuality, but the people around him are not, thus he is under the influense of casuality. I reckon he'll die against Griffith reborn. But that will just make him angrier, and he'll go to the bottom of hell, where he'll proced to kick the ass of the idea of evil.
You know I'm right^^)
Uhm... what's the "strand of casualty" thingy, please? :huh
Goodfellow
12-03-2006, 07:43 AM
Uhm... what's the "strand of casualty" thingy, please? :huh
Oops, I meant Stand outside of casuality, or something <.<
I think I messed up.
Lemme go fix that.
Oops, I meant Stand outside of casuality, or something <.<
I think I messed up.
Lemme go fix that.
still, can you explain to me what you meant by it? ^^;
Dr.Douchebag
12-03-2006, 08:19 AM
can't DS will himself back into existence?
can't DS will himself back into existence?
Basically he can. As long as his Eternal Atoms are unscratched.
still, can you explain to me what you meant by it? ^^;
Everything that is bound by a relationship of causes and effects, thats what he meant.
And if you ask me, gutts is in the realm of causality, otherwise skullknight didn't need to save his ass.
Keollyn
12-03-2006, 10:36 AM
I was answering his own example.
And I was merely telling you that that was his earliest state of power.
From what i have read in this forum they said they couldn't kill each other. In that case neither of them is omnipotent.
Well either the people mentioning this is stating wrong, or don't know about Bastard!!
God and Satan aren't fighting each other personally, so neither would try to. I've explained it alread, so there is no need for me to continue.
Very little...But with the info given by Z~K and other people in this forum I can't see DS winning against guys who can manipulate time and space at will. If you can provide me a scan like that then I could understand
If I'm not mistaken... wasn't time manip something DS was immune against?
Giga Slave can destroy the universe...I haven't see anything like that in Bastard. Can you provide me a link?
It doesn't matter what Giga Slave can do. It never has, and never will. Unless LoN decides that she wants to, that is...
And that's an omnipotent at work. You would expect power on that level.
Goodfellow
12-03-2006, 02:31 PM
Everything that is bound by a relationship of causes and effects, thats what he meant.
And if you ask me, gutts is in the realm of causality, otherwise skullknight didn't need to save his ass.
Yes, that's what I was saying as well. Although Guts might seem to be outside of the realms of casuality, he isn't becouse everyone around him is inside of it.
If there were no village, there would be no troll problems, if there was no troll problems, becouse of the village, then Casca and Farnese wouldn't need rescuing. If Farnese and Casca wouldn't have needed rescuing, then Guts wouldn't have had to face down with a godhand, were he got that fatal wound.
So on so fourth.
So, although Guts might be outside the laws of casuality, he's still in it. He's simply a leaf floating on the river of casuality.
Yes, that's what I was saying as well. Although Guts might seem to be outside of the realms of casuality, he isn't becouse everyone around him is inside of it.
If there were no village, there would be no troll problems, if there was no troll problems, becouse of the village, then Casca and Farnese wouldn't need rescuing. If Farnese and Casca wouldn't have needed rescuing, then Guts wouldn't have had to face down with a godhand, were he got that fatal wound.
So on so fourth.
So, although Guts might be outside the laws of casuality, he's still in it. He's simply a leaf floating on the river of casuality.
Okay, but how's that fitting in to the fight between Majin DS and the God Hand? ^^;
Goodfellow
12-03-2006, 04:06 PM
Okay, but how's that fitting in to the fight between Majin DS and the God Hand? ^^;
If the idea of evil the guy who controlls the God Hand doesn't want Scheider to win, he won't. The laws of casuality won't allow it.
Naturally, it's unsure how much knowledge and influense the God Hand themself has of the tides casuality. So, if we don't allow the Idea of Evil, or God to work his magic, then this argument is flawed. But I think we got a picture a bit above that explains that the Idea of Evil, or God, is an constant part of God Hand, thus it is questionable if he can be removed from the fight.
Screw separe dimensions, powershields, magic and powerful servants, casuality is teh real power of the Idea of Evil and the God Hand.
If the idea of evil the guy who controlls the God Hand doesn't want Scheider to win, he won't. The laws of casuality won't allow it.
Naturally, it's unsure how much knowledge and influense the God Hand themself has of the tides casuality. So, if we don't allow the Idea of Evil, or God to work his magic, then this argument is flawed. But I think we got a picture a bit above that explains that the Idea of Evil, or God, is an constant part of God Hand, thus it is questionable if he can be removed from the fight.
Screw separe dimensions, powershields, magic and powerful servants, casuality is teh real power of the Idea of Evil and the God Hand.
Hm, but since this is neutral battleground anyway and I assume the power of the Idea of Evil is directly linked only to the Berserk-verse, it doesn't have any priority over Dark Schneider, just like the God or Satan or whatever is the most powerful thing in the Bastard-verse has any influence on the God Hand. If we said, Idea of Evil can simply make it so that DS isn't allowed to win, I could simply say, the God from Bastard!! allows it, which in both cases would bring us to a stalemate. Neutral battleground shouldn't involve the direct powers of the entities the competitors of this fight draw their powers from, or else it would just be one party claiming something over the other.
I'm not saying that the God Hand's powers should be removed, unless it is the absolute same thing as putting the Idea of Evil against DS, which, considering DS isn't omnipotent, would automatically decide the fight for God Hand/Idea of Evil, since it basically is an omnipotent being.
Thats the same as me saying, Dark Schneider can't be killed by the God Hand because it would violate the universal law the Bastard!!-verse God set up and which states that only the Adam of Light is allowed to kill Dark Schneider. That would automatically favour the sides of Majin DS. I'm not doing it since it is a law directly linked to the plot of the Bastard!!-verse, as much as I understand the will of the Idea of Evil being a thing linked to the plot of the Berserk-verse. Such things should be kept out of this fight.
Endless Mike
12-04-2006, 12:20 AM
I have to say, this is a good debate. Both sides are arguing well, presenting evidence, and explaining their points clearly.
If only DBZ/One Piece/Naruto debates were more like this.
Orion
12-04-2006, 09:07 AM
^^if only the bleach and naruto debates didnt have hinata fan and jplaya....so far i havnt seen anything from godhand that would really kill ds,and saying that since they work for the idea of evil they automatically win is crap.
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