California Students Ban Pledge of Allegiance [Archive]

Sunuvmann

11-11-2006, 04:48 PM

California Students Ban Pledge of Allegiance
Leaders Do Not Want to Recite Loyalty to God or Government

LOS ANGELES (Nov. 11) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.

The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.

"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told Reuters.

"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.

The move was led by three recently elected student trustees, who ran for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.

The ban follows a 2002 ruling by a federal appeals court in San Francisco that said forcing school children to recite the pledge was unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ruling on procedural grounds but left the door open for another challenge.

"That ('under God') part is sort of offensive to me," student trustee Jason Ball, who proposed the ban, told Reuters. "I am an atheist and a socialist, and if you know your history, you know that 'under God' was inserted during the McCarthy era and was directly designed to destroy my ideology."

Ball said the ban largely came about because the trustees didn't want to publicly vow loyalty to the American government before their meetings. "Loyalty ought to be something the government earns through performance, not through reciting a pledge," he said.

Martha Parham, a spokeswoman for the Coast Community College District, said her office had no standing on the student board and took no position on the flag salute ban.

"If their personal belief is that they don't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, the district certainly isn't going to dictate what they do," she said.

More than 28,000 students attend the community college, located in conservative Orange County, California, south of Los Angeles.

Sophomore Chris Belanger, one of several students who attended the meeting to support keeping the pledge, waved an American flag and accused the board of "radical views and anti-Americanism."
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/california-students-ban-pledge-of/20061110073709990026?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Straw man much?

tardaime

11-11-2006, 05:09 PM

Good too see not only Europe is crazy about political corectness. A nation that doesn't identify and care with it's country won't last for long though.

Adonis

11-11-2006, 05:55 PM

Goddamn it. Now everyone's gonna cite this ONE example like, "See? Atheists are intolerant and trying to destroy my way of thinking!"

Sky is Over

11-11-2006, 06:04 PM

those college students go into things to much.(it gets annoying after awhile when they try to act like know-it-alls:notrust)

Noodle

11-11-2006, 06:44 PM

...Wow... that's ridiculous. On top of that, it seems pretty frivolous. But mostly just stupid.

MartialHorror

11-11-2006, 06:50 PM

Goddamn it. Now everyone's gonna cite this ONE example like, "See? Atheists are intolerant and trying to destroy my way of thinking!"

HAHA! ATHEISTS ARE INTOLERANT AND TRYING TO DESTROY MY WAY OF THINKING.

lol, kidding, kidding.

Personally, I dont know if I would call it being anti-american.For atheists, I dont see why they can just ignore the under God part.....but these aren't all atheists doing this.

But I do think it's being disrespectful to the government(difference between disrespectful and critical).....which is what protects us, like it or not.

zet1

11-11-2006, 06:55 PM

Why ban the pledge when you can just make it optional?

Char-Aznable

11-11-2006, 06:55 PM

Oh hell no. I'm ashamed, Honestly, these Kids are morons. I'm Atheist and this bothers me that they can do that.

Taraqs

11-11-2006, 07:46 PM

OMG why ban it can't they not say it at all.

Scum

11-11-2006, 10:18 PM

wtf's the point of banning it? it's not like I say it or anything but it's kinda silly to ban it...

s0id3

11-11-2006, 11:52 PM

Seto Kaiba

11-11-2006, 11:57 PM

and the 'under god' part is offensive to me too. I dont believe in god so why should i say it? and it goes for other ppl w/ other religons they dont believe in the christian god, y do that have to say it. im glad this happened and CA is best anyways.

Well, you can say the pledge and exclude the "under god" part. It wasn't in the pledge in the first place, it was included during the times of the 2nd Red Scare. It doesn't make any sense to ban the pledge in its entirety for a single phrase.

Vegeta

11-12-2006, 12:00 AM

Swearing your allegiance to your own country shouldn't be a bad thing, sure by including "under god" you get all the people who care too much about things complaining because they don't believe in God.

Seriously, people in this world need to chill the fuck out.

s0id3

11-12-2006, 12:01 AM

well...yeah banning it is a little extreme at my school it was optional, but this all doesnt really effect me since im in college now..

Red Viking

11-12-2006, 12:02 AM

and it goes for other ppl w/ other religons they dont believe in the christian god, y do that have to say it.

It doesn't say 'One nation, under the Christian God,' it's just simply 'God.' That can be interpreted to mean whomever God you believe in .

But anyway, banning it for that reason I can, at the very least, see why. But saying your banning it because you don't want to declare allegiance to the United States is incredibly stupid. Not only are they utilizing American education, but how many of them have American citizenship that gives them the right to do so? Might as well revoke that if they have that kind of mentality.

s0id3

11-12-2006, 12:06 AM

But saying your banning it because you don't want to declare allegiance to the United States is incredibly stupid.
i totally agree w/ you there. Im for the whole 'dont want to say god' thing but i would never ban it b/c i dont wanna declare allegiance to america...i Love this nation

Shadow Raki

11-12-2006, 12:13 AM

Damn, they took it a little too far. You don't have to recite the pledge if you don't want to.

Dionysus

11-12-2006, 12:17 AM

I'm not a big fan of nationalism.

That pledge (and similar recitations) never really sit well with me. Seems a waste of time and doesn't change intent.

NU-KazeKage

11-12-2006, 12:18 AM

s0id3

11-12-2006, 12:25 AM

how is under God offensive to you ...i see people do their budehest stuff at the 7 11 near my house and it dosnt offend me explain how when somthing you dnot believe in comes up it offends you
okay...lets pull out some analogies...this is why i find 'under god' offensive. I dont believe in god, or religion for that matter. Saying 'under god' goes agaisnt my belief. For example what if the pledge said 'praise Allah" instead of God? I''m sure you would find it offensive...
::edit::/update
oh and why should the buddist stuff offend you? you're not taking part in it, where as ppl who dont believe in religion or god have to take part in the pledge

That NOS Guy

11-12-2006, 12:30 AM

Seeing as how the pledge is a 20th century invention and "Under God" only added as a McCarthyist (GODLESS COMMUNISTS MUST NOT INFLITRATE AMERICA!) move in 1954 I see no reason why we should be bound to it. It simply doesn't have the historical roots to be considered indespensible to America.

Taraqs

11-12-2006, 01:47 AM

YOu don't have to say under god nor do you have to say the pledge at all. The ban is just stupid and idiotic.

Scum

11-12-2006, 02:34 AM

s0id3

11-12-2006, 02:37 AM

this country has never been seperated from 'god' and i'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything like that in the constitution

why do you have to be so selfish? let people say under god because it actually means something to them; you on the other hand aren't religious so it shouldn't affect you eitherway

p.s i'm not religious T_T

separation of church and state is in the constitution...

Usagi

11-12-2006, 02:41 AM

You know why this rules?

I GO TO ORANGE COAST COLLEGE.

That's why.

Darkhope

11-12-2006, 02:44 AM

^Woah. o_o

Politics suck. =/

Azure-kun

11-12-2006, 03:18 AM

I understand if your atheists, however california is STILL a part of the united states, the'll acomplish nothing by ridding themselfs of a pledge when it's there country's actions thus far that affects them.

Jin-E

11-12-2006, 03:34 AM

Simply idiotic.

If you want to state the pledge, that should be your right.
If you dont want to state the pledge and abstain from it respectfully that should also be allowed.

Religious people shouldnt force Atheist's to say "under God", but neither should Atheist's force Christians to abstain from saying "under God". Both things are just as wrong in my eyes.

Taraqs

11-12-2006, 03:45 AM

This is just stupid and dum.

The Space Cowboy

11-12-2006, 03:49 AM

You know, I've always wondered, since the pledge goes "One nation, under God, indivisible..." couldn't one just hold one's breath after the first comma?

It's a very simple solution to not wanting to say "One Nation under God." Then if anyone ever notices that you didn't say it, politely explain your reasoning, and why you cannot say those words and remain in good conscience. Remind them that the pledge also promises "Liberty and Justice to all..."

Adonis

11-12-2006, 04:03 AM

this country has never been seperated from 'god' and i'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything like that in the constitution

why do you have to be so selfish? let people say under god because it actually means something to them; you on the other hand aren't religious so it shouldn't affect you eitherway

p.s i'm not religious T_T

Lol. American education system, how you have failed us!

Kickero's idea is so good that it gets my TDA seal of approval.

That NOS Guy

11-12-2006, 04:50 AM

this country has never been seperated from 'god' and i'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything like that in the constitution

Find God in the constitution. I dare you. Establishment clause motherfucker, do you read it?

Azure-kun

11-12-2006, 05:46 AM

Find God in the constitution. I dare you. Establishment clause motherfucker, do you read it?I smell pwnage, followed by Killzone for the PsP.:oh

T4R0K

11-12-2006, 06:12 AM

Is that such a big deal ? "OMG ! I don't want to say a stupid sentence so EVERYONE must not say it anymore !!"

Well, I never really understood the need for that pledge of allegiance, but since America is a democracy, not saying it along should not be seen as a bad thing. Those that want to say it, say it, those that don't can just sit and wait the others finish.

Why the big fuzz ?

Azure-kun

11-12-2006, 06:38 AM

Insipidipity

11-12-2006, 06:57 AM

Wait did they mean banned in terms of being sponsored by the institution or banned in terms of punishment for the words being said?

The former makes a lot of sense, but the latter is a bit nonsensical(possibly unconstitutional)

While the title says "ban", the way it is described it seems much more like they uninstitutionalized it.

They say over and over again "If their personal belief is that they don't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, the district certainly isn't going to dictate what they do," she said.
If anything, I think the title of the article is a strawman.

Why ban the pledge when you can just make it optional?
The problem is that sometimes a de jure optional action becomes a de facto mandatory thing. Like in my elementary school, though it was legally optional, kids would get chastised for not saying the pledge.

Toby

11-12-2006, 08:04 AM

It's far more radical than atheist to ban the oath. In fact, those who do not believe in the 'God' which McCarthy niftily added, are not necessarily atheist, but they represent a different point of view.

Which incidentally would add up to the vast majority of non-Christian people on earth; maybe relevant to the change in religions of the U.S.?

I personally don't mind nationalism where there is genuine proof that the nation actually has achieved a sense of belonging where the people are exclusively in favour of their government's promotion of world peace. To rally under a banner which is, as NOS says, indispensible to the U.S. To expect such allegiance is very similar to fascism. *cough*

Nega

11-12-2006, 02:37 PM

I'd prefer the pledge to be revised, but whatever.

"One nation, under the sun, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

tardaime

11-12-2006, 03:59 PM

That "sun" part offends me as I worship Sun and we can't speak It's name. In fact now I have to slam my head against a wall 50 times as penance.

The Cheat

11-12-2006, 05:41 PM

You ever notice that its only aethists complaining about stuff like this? I'm aware that not all aethists are intolerant but its only aethists I hear complain about this stuff.

Vegitto-kun

11-12-2006, 05:47 PM

You ever notice that its only aethists complaining about stuff like this? I'm aware that not all aethists are intolerant but its only aethists I hear complain about this stuff.

Why would christians complain about the pledge, you also have religious people saying that if you don't believe in god that you will burn in hell for forever

Giovanni Rild

11-12-2006, 06:03 PM

Why would christians complain about the pledge, you also have religious people saying that if you don't believe in god that you will burn in hell for forever

Leave the pledge alone. I'm not saying if you are going to heaven or hell because I don't give a fuck where you go.

Lack of respect. Atheist and Religious people alike

Shiron

11-12-2006, 06:08 PM

Leave the pledge alone. I'm not saying if you are going to heaven or hell because I don't give a fuck where you go.

Lack of respect. Atheist and Religious people alike
Why? I don't support the ban, but why shouldn't "under god" be removed? I mean, it's not like it was there originally (it was only added due to McCarty) and doesn't reflect the entire nation's views (since not every body in the US believes in God). I see very little reason for those words to remain.

Or at least make it not mandatory to say the Pledge (anywhere)....

Giovanni Rild

11-12-2006, 06:13 PM

Why? I don't support the ban, but why shouldn't "under god" be removed? I mean, it's not like it was there originally (it was only added due to McCarty) and doesn't reflect the entire nation's views (since not every body in the US believes in God). I see very little reason for those words to remain.

Or at least not making it mandatory to say the Pledge....

You have a point. But people forget about another part of freedom, tolerance. Mabey it should be taken out if that's the case. What's the original pledge?
Edit: Found it. I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Shiron

11-12-2006, 06:16 PM

You have a point. But people forget about another part of freedom, tolerance. Mabey it should be taken out if that's the case. What's the original pledge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Versions

Char-Aznable

11-12-2006, 06:44 PM

This country was founded by the belief of God. In that aspect he deserves to be in the Pledge. Believe in him or not thats what I think.

Toby

11-12-2006, 06:45 PM

Leave the pledge alone. I'm not saying if you are going to heaven or hell because I don't give a fuck where you go.

Lack of respect. Atheist and Religious people alike

Would you prefer that atheists, muslims, buddhists and hinduists etc. were to lie when swearing an oath of allegiance to your country?

Cardboard Tube Knight

11-12-2006, 07:13 PM

Hell yeah! it's called separation of church and state. It shouldn't be said in schools. Not everyone believes in that one 'god'

and the 'under god' part is offensive to me too. I dont believe in god so why should i say it? and it goes for other ppl w/ other religons they dont believe in the christian god, y do that have to say it. im glad this happened and CA is best anyways.

You're not forced to even say the pledge, you can stand and say nothing if you want, you just have to show respect, so why do you need to have it banned. Any athiest that goes after stuff like this needs to learn that they aren't the only people in the world, the pledge is that way because someone made it that way, even if that part was added later.

This goes far beyond whether you believe or not, it goes back to having respect for those who have come before. People get mad when you sing a stupid song off the radio wrong, but when you change something like this not enough people get mad. And its people like you who think that just because they believe its right its the best way when really the pledge was around long before you, and came long after the idea of atheism, so why is it all of a sudden such a big deal to get it taken away? I like how people like you claim this as a victory, other groups, religious groups, community, etc are out there trying to get stuff done to help people, and then there are people like this in California trying to get something trivial that's just a sign of respect taken away.

California is a horrible state, they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, they make the rest of the nation suffer, every year we have to have rolling blackouts in Texas because they need to be supplied with power they don't have because they won't build plants for fear of hurting the enviroment...but their just fine with our enviroment over here getting fucked.

There's nothing special about California and there's nothing good about what they have done here.

Why would christians complain about the pledge, you also have religious people saying that if you don't believe in god that you will burn in hell for forever

Um, what are you talking about?

Nega

11-12-2006, 07:50 PM

Um, what are you talking about?

Isn't it obvious? You are pledging to a nation under god when in fact you don't believe in god. If you take out "under God" then it would apply to everyone who swears allegiance to his country and not involve religion.

Amaretti

11-12-2006, 08:09 PM

You ever notice that its only aethists complaining about stuff like this? I'm aware that not all aethists are intolerant but its only aethists I hear complain about this stuff.

Conveniently forgetting everything Christians complain about, eh? Homosexuality, atheism, separation of church and state (hey, why can't we put the ten commandments in state schools and courts?), women's right to abortion, stem cell research, natural history and science, and virtually EVERY rule and restriction laid upon them by secular society - but, hey, it's perfectly acceptable to have religious doctrine laid upon everyone else.

Ease off the hypocrisy, yeah?

The Cheat

11-12-2006, 08:16 PM

Conveniently forgetting everything Christians complain about, eh? Homosexuality, atheism, separation of church and state (hey, why can't we put the ten commandments in state schools and courts?), women's right to abortion, stem cell research, natural history and science, and virtually EVERY rule and restriction laid upon them by secular society - but, hey, it's perfectly acceptable to have religious doctrine laid upon everyone else.

Ease off the hypocrisy, yeah?

Yeah a lot of christians christians complain about that shit, lucky i was raised in a church that doesn't even get involved with that shit.

Vegitto-kun

11-12-2006, 08:26 PM

This country was founded by the belief of God. In that aspect he deserves to be in the Pledge. Believe in him or not thats what I think.

God didn't make america, you guys just killed innocent indians and took over america

hell he wasn't even in the pledge originally

The Cheat

11-12-2006, 08:29 PM

God didn't make america, you guys just killed innocent indians and took over america

hell he wasn't even in the pledge originally

No country is perfect, many americans regret that like germany regrets world war 2.

RockLee

11-12-2006, 08:30 PM

People care too much.

What's wrong with a pledge?

Nega

11-12-2006, 08:31 PM

People care too much.

What's wrong with a pledge?

Read posts?

Cardboard Tube Knight

11-12-2006, 08:38 PM

Isn't it obvious? You are pledging to a nation under god when in fact you don't believe in god. If you take out "under God" then it would apply to everyone who swears allegiance to his country and not involve religion.

Actually I believe in God, so I don't have a problem with it. But even then, if it wasn't in there, people still complain about pledging I know one guy did it at our school, he said the only part he did like about it was God and the rest of it was lies...

Conveniently forgetting everything Christians complain about, eh? Homosexuality, atheism, separation of church and state (hey, why can't we put the ten commandments in state schools and courts?), women's right to abortion, stem cell research, natural history and science, and virtually EVERY rule and restriction laid upon them by secular society - but, hey, it's perfectly acceptable to have religious doctrine laid upon everyone else.

Ease off the hypocrisy, yeah?

I'm Catholic, I don't care about atheism; unless their the militant kind, I don't care about homosexuals; what they want to do is their own thing, abortion isn't a right and it isn't natural, if you don't want kids don't have sex...simple as that, stem cell research can be done without hurting one fetus, but its less cost effective, and no one complains about science and natural history, but your broad generalizations show just how much of a hypocrit you are.

If you haven't noticed people lay their beliefs down, and because this is the melting pot we have to accept them. The things people say or come up with that others accept as being part of their rights are sometimes so asisnine that I wonder what will come next. Furry rights? Something else stupid like that, like I said before, when people take legislative time from real issues and put it on stuff like this that could be solved with a simple, "Say what you want to say, but show respect" it pisses me off. I don't care about the pledge because really its a hollow formality, but its still formal.

I don't believe things always have to be done if you don't want to, but I believe in respecting things people actually fought and died for espeically as many as have fought so we have a country to say the pledge in.

I love how people threaten to leave the country if this or that doesn't happen, most of them need to anyway.

Robotkiller

11-12-2006, 08:41 PM

Ah yes, the old "under god" shtick. It was added during the cold war as a propaganda tool to remind the good christian folk of America that the commies were all atheists and would force you to stop worshiping your god if they won. All the words do now is provide a reminder of such hilarities as McCarthy-esque witch hunts, blacklisting, hysteria, and the ever-present threat of nuclear* war.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Devided States of America and to the theocracy for whitch it stands. One nation, under the white hetero-sexual evangelical Christian god, devided, with repression and indignity for all. Amen."

I think that sums up how it should probably sound now.

Not only that, Forget the "under God" bit, why should we have a loyalty oath in a free society? The Pledge wasn't even adopted until 1945. It is a relic of the Cold War. I suspect Jefferson and Washington would have been horrified by the idea.

*If you're from Texas, I guess it's "nucular".

zet1

11-12-2006, 08:56 PM

Conveniently forgetting everything Christians complain about, eh? Homosexuality, atheism, separation of church and state (hey, why can't we put the ten commandments in state schools and courts?), women's right to abortion, stem cell research, natural history and science, and virtually EVERY rule and restriction laid upon them by secular society - but, hey, it's perfectly acceptable to have religious doctrine laid upon everyone else.

Ease off the hypocrisy, yeah?

From the way he worded it, I assumed he was referring to trivial complaints such as fretting over the "under God" phrase. If that's what he meant, besides the ten commandments, I believe all those other issues eclipse the pledge matter in terms of their severity and effects on American society.

Cardboard Tube Knight

11-12-2006, 08:58 PM

*If you're from Texas, I guess it's "nucular".

Hmm no, its more like oil refinaries and smokestacks, I say let the fuckers sit in the dark.

zet1

11-12-2006, 08:59 PM

Ah yes, the old "under god" shtick. It was added during the cold war as a propaganda tool to remind the good Christian folk of America that the commies were all atheists and would force you to stop worshiping your god if they won. All the words do now is provide a reminder of such hilarities as McCarthy-esque witch hunts, blacklisting, hysteria, and the ever-present threat of nuclear* war.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Devided States of America and to the theocracy for whitch it stands. One nation, under the white hetero-sexual evangelical Christian god, devided, with repression and indignity for all. Amen."

I think that sums up how it should probably sound now.

Not only that, Forget the "under God" bit, why should we have a loyalty oath in a free society? The Pledge wasn't even adopted until 1945. It is a relic of the Cold War. I suspect Jefferson and Washington would have been horrified by the idea.

*If you're from Texas, I guess it's "nucular".

Lol. And here I thought only hardcore evangelical Christians could preach so hard. :laugh

hoshika

11-12-2006, 10:18 PM

Don't be counting on the "Under God" to be removed. The majority of Americans are Christian and would go absolutely apeshit if they attempted to do that.

In the meantime, if you have such a hard time pledging to your country or the country's 'God' don't say anything at all. Just stand there and wait until it is over. What ever happen to tolerance? Golly Gee!!

I'm not into the pledge, personally. I think it is the biggest waste of time. And I particular don't care. Does a damn pledge mean anything? NO. It is just a bunch of words. Actions speak louder then words. That is why I respect those who give up their lives or part of their life to serve their country. That means so much more then a stupid pledge that nobody even gives a second thought to (unless your an atheist or one that hates this country to that degree).

Dave

11-12-2006, 10:22 PM

i thought it was always wierd sayin "I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE to the flag......."
i wish we didnt have to say it.................

s0id3

11-12-2006, 11:02 PM

In the meantime, if you have such a hard time pledging to your country or the country's 'God' don't say anything at all. Just stand there and wait until it is over. What ever happen to tolerance? Golly Gee!!
Our country doesn't have a god...

Jin-E

11-12-2006, 11:12 PM

Our country doesn't have a god...

What does some of the coins in your country say?

zet1

11-12-2006, 11:17 PM

^ Is that an issue as well? The "In God We Trust" phrase on currency?

Jin-E

11-12-2006, 11:24 PM

^ Is that an issue as well? The "In God We Trust" phrase on currency?

If America doesnt "have a God" as the guy above me said, then why put this phrase down on its currency?

The Internet

11-12-2006, 11:54 PM

To ban it is just as stupid as to require it.

DarkFire

11-13-2006, 12:19 AM

I think it should be optinal or if they have to leave out "under God"

Nega

11-13-2006, 12:24 AM

If America doesnt "have a God" as the guy above me said, then why put this phrase down on its currency?

God is money.

Insipidipity

11-13-2006, 01:13 AM

I think the important word is "Ban", which makes a huge difference from "Drop"

Even Fox won't go so far as to call it a "ban" on the pledge"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228632,00.html
Or the international herald
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/10/america/NA_GEN_US_No_Pledge_of_Allegiance.php
Or CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/11/10/no.pledge.ap/index.html

So like I said, I suspect the title of the story(given by AOL and Yahoo) is a strawman. Misconstrued at best, deceptive at worst.

Belldandy

11-13-2006, 02:14 AM

I'm not suprised. I figuired it was a matter of time until someone didn't say it publicly.

Tokoyami

11-13-2006, 02:52 AM

Who cares half the peole in schools and shit don't do it and I'm (for personal reasons) against many religions so all it does for me is make it easier at school and such.

TenguForte

11-13-2006, 02:57 AM

Goddamn it. Now everyone's gonna cite this ONE example like, "See? Atheists are intolerant and trying to destroy my way of thinking!"

Yes, because the crusades never happened in Christian eyes.

Giovanni Rild

11-13-2006, 04:48 AM

Then they should restore the pledge to it's original form. And people should stop bitching. No one cares that children are starving or people dying. It always about religion.

You can get along with almost anybody on earth until you start talking about religion and politics

T4R0K

11-13-2006, 05:59 AM

Don't be counting on the "Under God" to be removed. The majority of Americans are Christian and would go absolutely apeshit if they attempted to do that.

I want to see them go apeshit crazy. It'd be so funny to listen to the arguments of the demonstrators.

And if it wasn't in the original, then, why just not retake the original ? People prefer MacCarthy to the Founding Fathers ?

tardaime

11-13-2006, 06:37 AM

I want to see them go apeshit crazy. It'd be so funny to listen to the arguments of the demonstrators.

And if it wasn't in the original, then, why just not retake the original ? People prefer MacCarthy to the Founding Fathers ?

XVIII century is over.

Scum

11-13-2006, 12:44 PM

Find God in the constitution. I dare you. Establishment clause motherfucker, do you read it?

i think i'll trust the word from my professor rather than some random guy on the internet

find me where it says the "seperation of church and state" in the constitution

jefferson wrote some letter concering "seperation of church and state" and most ppl use that as their basis for the seperation

sadated_peon

11-13-2006, 01:13 PM

i think i'll trust the word from my professor rather than some random guy on the internet

find me where it says the "seperation of church and state" in the constitution

jefferson wrote some letter concering "seperation of church and state" and most ppl use that as their basis for the seperation
Jefferson wrote some letters ABOUT the establishment clause of the first amendment, which he used the term "separation of church and state".

"Separation of church and state" is a phrase used to explain the application of the first amendment coined by the person who wrote the first amendment.

Amaretti

11-13-2006, 01:34 PM

I'm Catholic, I don't care about atheism; unless their the militant kind, I don't care about homosexuals; what they want to do is their own thing, abortion isn't a right and it isn't natural, if you don't want kids don't have sex...simple as that, stem cell research can be done without hurting one fetus, but its less cost effective, and no one complains about science and natural history, but your broad generalizations show just how much of a hypocrit you are.

Are you familiar with the concept of irony?

Apparently not.

If you've read any of my previous posts, you'd know I hate it when people generalise both atheists and theists.

Eagle88

11-13-2006, 02:56 PM

Personally, one thing that realy bugs me is that the students banning the pledge don't want to show allegiance to the country. It's pretty hypocritical when they live in it and when the college recieves benefits from the country. I thought that the original debate would be over the "under God" phrase again but when I read that they didn't want to show loyalty to the nation that really upset me.

Cardboard Tube Knight

11-13-2006, 09:31 PM

Find God in the constitution. I dare you. Establishment clause motherfucker, do you read it?

Bad attempt at a Pulp Fiction quote...I dare anyone to find me where there is a definate seperation of Church and State on the level like you're talking about here. We've all ready established they didn't want any kind of pledge, it wasn't just the under God part. But there's no religion being promoted in the pledge, and every culture known to man almost believes in some kind of higher being. As a matter of a fact, most of the people in the nation believe in some kind of God, so how come its so wrong for people to pledge allegence to a nation where a lot of the citizens do believe in God, they're not asking you to do anything but say some formal words. Even if you believe in Seperation of Church and state it shouldn't include just the mention of God in things like this.

Someone puts a bible outside of a courthouse with the page with the ten commandmants on it, this is just for decoration, their not going to the book to get rules out, but it has to be removed. Someone hangs a giant dream catcher in the front of an elementary school class, then has all of the kids make a dream catcher, hello, that's a religious object, but no one ever gets pissed about that. It's okay as long as its not a cross or Jewish star or something like that.

It's getting to the point where you can't even mention Jesus in school anymore, even though the guy is just as much a part of History as Alexander, Cleopatra and Tut, and had a longer lasting effect than any of the three. For he and several other relgious figures they lived real lives, recorded by the governments and people around them, but because of fear of getting jumped on, schools aren't allowed to teach about them. Now that's funny, I thought this was a country where we were supposed to tell the truth, majority wins a the poles and all of that, but none of that really happens because everyone is too scared of not being PC.