SUPERMAN VS Z

[BRANCHEAD33]

WHO?

YOU GUYS SAID A GOOD MATCH WOULD BE SSJ4 GOGETA AND VEGETO VS SUPERMAN

NOW WHO

[SoulTaker540]

Z utterly destroys him.

[∅]

This better be Pre-crisis Superman, he who could sneeze away solarsystems.

[Scum]

z would pwn whatever version of superman

[Endless Mike]

Nah, Superman with the Sword of truth and possibly Superman Prime could win.

[BRANCHEAD33]

FINE PRIME SUPERMAN

GO

[Endless Mike]

Well we don't really know much about the true extent of his abilities.

[∅]

FINE PRIME SUPERMAN

GO

Overkill ...

Do you recall how powerful Superman (post crisis) because after a 30 minutes sundip?
Now ... Superman prime is Pre-crisis Superman sundipped for 15 millenia's.

[Endless Mike]

Yet brute force is pointless againt the Light Hawk Wings....

[∅]

Yet brute force is pointless againt the Light Hawk Wings....

Heh, pre-crisis Superman vibrated his atoms to destroy an dimention ...
Superman Prime can do everything and pre-crisis Superman could ... And more.

[Endless Mike]

That's just it, we don't know enough about SMP's powers to say for sure.

BTW, what issue did he do that in? Do you have scans? I'm not doubting you, I just am interested in seeing Pre-Crisis DC stuff.

[∅]

That's just it, we don't know enough about SMP's powers to say for sure.
If he's more powerful that Superman with the Sword of Truth (Equal to the Spear of Desiny) Than Superman Prime would destroy him ...

But since we do not know, we put them in the same tier.
In other words stalemate.

BTW, what issue did he do that in? Do you have scans? I'm not doubting you, I just am interested in seeing Pre-Crisis DC stuff.
Not really, I saw it on an other forum, but I can try and find them, if I'll do I post them.

[jplaya2023]

WHO?

YOU GUYS SAID A GOOD MATCH WOULD BE SSJ4 GOGETA AND VEGETO VS SUPERMAN

NOW WHO

this is massive overkill, goku, vegeta, gohan by themselves solo's supes

[Scum]

lighthawk wings can through anything but gods...superman prime isn't a god

and you can't say he's faster than Z either

i don't see how supes can win

[Endless Mike]

this is massive overkill, goku, vegeta, gohan by themselves solo's supes

Prove it or GTFO.

[∅]

lighthawk wings can through anything but gods...superman prime isn't a god
So could Pre-crisis Superman's heat vision ...
Superman Prime was so powerful no one in the entire universe deared to fight him.

and you can't say he's faster than Z either
Of course I can, pre-crisis Superman moved billion of lightyears in 2-3 pages.
And Superman Prime is faster ...

i don't see how supes can win
Open you're eyes ... :P

[vagnard]

If he's more powerful that Superman with the Sword of Truth (Equal to the Spear of Desiny) Than Superman Prime would destroy him ...

No. Superman + Sword of Truth = Nigh-Omnipotent.

Superman Prime = Middle Cosmic at his best.

lighthawk wings can through anything but gods...superman prime isn't a god

More precisely to pierce LHWs you need a force similar to the Choushin (Nigh Omnipotent beings capable to create a Multiverse) or another LHW to cancel it.

So could Pre-crisis Superman's heat vision ...
Superman Prime was so powerful no one in the entire universe deared to fight him.

Heat Vision would be just absorbed by LHWs. It doesn't matter if we talk about pre or post crisis Superman. "Normal" versions of Superman can't do anything against Z. Superman prime is just a guess because we don't know the full extent of his powers...the only thing he did was destroy Solaris with his GL ring.

Of course I can, pre-crisis Superman moved billion of lightyears in 2-3 pages.
And Superman Prime is faster ...

scans....

Open you're eyes

The only one Superman that can defeat Z clearly is Superman with the Sword of Truth. Superman Prime is just a guess. The other Supermen aren't even worth to mention.

[Scum]

so superman can create multiverses now? jeez

[~Shin~]

How is supes faster if Z can teleport?
Millions of time ftl<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Teleportation
If this is supes without the sword of truth then he can't do shit against the LHW's. NO amount of heat vision, or his punches is going to do anything. LHW's will reduce all damage to 0.

[∅]

Well there's also travle back in time ...

[~Shin~]

Supes can travel back in time?

[∅]

Supes can travel back in time?
Superman Prime is Pre-crisis Superman at full potential ...
And Pre-crisis Superman reversed and rewinded time ...
But on the other hand he did a lot of wierd stuff ...

[Genis-Vell]

What about Superman M. He was crazy strong.

[∅]

What about Superman M. He was crazy strong.
Superman One Million? - The one with 10th dimentional imp-blood in him?
Yeah he was powerful,
But:
Superman Prime >> All possible Supermen's in all dimention's

No Superman could get more powerful than Superman Prime.

With the exeption for him with the Sword of Truth.
But on the other hand the power of the sword wasent really his power.

[Genis-Vell]

Superman One Million? - The one with 10th dimentional imp-blood in him?
Yeah he was powerful,
But:
Superman Prime >> All possible Supermen's in all dimention's

No Superman could get more powerful than Superman Prime.

With the exeption for him with the Sword of Truth.
But on the other hand the power of the sword wasent really his power.

He might not be as strong as Prime. But unlike Prime, M showed us what he was capable of.

[∅]

He might not be as strong as Prime. But unlike Prime, M showed us what he was capable of.
It's like the Presence ... He never shows ... Because he don't need too.

[Genis-Vell]

It's like the Presence ... He never shows ... Because he don't need too.

Yet prime is not Omnipotent. And we don’t really know what the extent of his abilities are. On the other hand, Superman M was shown to be vary powerful. And could give Z a match.

[∅]

Yet prime is not Omnipotent. And we don’t really know what the extent of his abilities are. On the other hand, Superman M was shown to be vary powerful. And could give Z a match.

It was said that no one in the entire universe dared to fight Superman Prime.
So if Superman one million can give Z a fight, than Superman Prime would rape him.

[Scum]

It was said that no one in the entire universe dared to fight Superman Prime.


that statement is only pertinent in the DCverse...

Unless superman prime is a guy who can create multiverses i still say Z will win

[∅]

that statement is only pertinent in the DCverse...

Unless superman prime is a guy who can create multiverses i still say Z will win

Three chousein did create a hyperdimention.
One chousien >> Z
Not a Multi-verse.
DC universe is an hyperdimention, many dimentions in one universe.

If else, give proof, upload clip to youtube, use imgshack for manga ect.

So in other words no one in any of the dimentions in the DC dared to fight Superman Prime.

So for the moment stalemate ...

[Scum]

the chousin are hyperdimensional beings because they exist outside of the *3rd dimension

they're omnipotent and omniscience

superman is omnipotent and omniscience? does superman exist outside of the third dimension?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IQo2Zw75K5A


you're saying supes is equivalent to them in power? if no one can challenge superman, then he might as well be the one who created that universe and he might as well be omnipotent

i was under the impression DCverse is a multiverse...

[∅]

they're omnipotent and omniscience
Omnisience my ass ...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OXb1XIFokEI
Tsunami-nessama: I don't understand it ...
Omnipotence ... A chousein in you're clip was about to get killed ...
Besides in you're clip they also said that they

superman is omnipotent and omniscience? does superman exist outside of the third dimension?
Yeah he can enter any dimention ... Superman One Million is a 10th dimentional imp-kryptonian hybrid.
And Superman Prime is superior to any incarnation of Superman.
But no, not omnipotent nor omnisience.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IQo2Zw75K5A
Other funny statements:
Hyper-dimentions don't exist by the laws inside the shell of the world we created.
JACKPOT:
We're here in front of the godesses who created the universe, and no one is the least bit nervous.
So how do you know it's not a single universe like DC?

you're saying supes is equivalent to them in power? if no one can challenge superman, then he might as well be the one who created that universe and he might as well be omnipotent
No I said that there's is no proof that Z could beat him ... Vice versa.

i was under the impression DCverse is a multiverse...
Not after infinity crisis.

[potential]

Cant Kid Buu and Janemba solo this? How can Superman destroy these two.

[∅]

Cant Kid Buu and Janemba solo this? How can Superman destroy these two.
Boo would be hard for any western comic hero to beat ... Because to do that you need to neutralize him with possitive chi (Boo is pure negative).
Boo can even regenerate in gas form (when all the atom's have separated).
To turn him into plasma though (shatter the atom's) would probobly kill him.
So Superman's heat-vision woiuld fix that, or he can just go back in time and prevbent Bibidi from making Boo.
Janemba would be easy though, a punch from Superman Prime is like a centillion (10^600) puches from Gojiita, yes I am aware of that I am exagurating but you'll get the point ...

[Vicious]

lolz but sup<MAN can create MUtliverses with hiS hEat ViSiOn.

im not going to enter this debate because im to lazy, but
i beleive in the last episode they said they were Omnisience. They ARE ALL KNOWING. Chousin's>>>>>>>Superman
Light Hawk Wings>>>>>>Superman

and if u think superman would have trouble with buu than obivously superman would get his ass kicked by Z..

[competitionbros]

*looks at sig

Goku i'd think since superman is invulnerable to bullet but their energy blasts are some much more destructive, plus Sup has a weakness so if they came across Kryptonite while battling it'd be all over

[~Shin~]

@Michael demiurigos, have u even seen tenchi muyo?
What in the world makes u think that supes can break through Z's LHWs? It's pointless to argue that supes can get through the LHWs.
THEY REDUCE ALL DAMAGE TO 0.
And now ur saying that supes can beat the choussins, c'mon be reasonable, the choussins did create the multiverse. They are nigh-omnipotent. One choussin is enough to beat the living daylights out of supes

[potential]

Boo would be hard for any western comic hero to beat ... Because to do that you need to neutralize him with possitive chi (Boo is pure negative).
Boo can even regenerate in gas form (when all the atom's have separated).
To turn him into plasma though (shatter the atom's) would probobly kill him.
So Superman's heat-vision woiuld fix that, or he can just go back in time and prevbent Bibidi from making Boo.
Janemba would be easy though, a punch from Superman Prime is like a centillion (10^600) puches from Gojiita, yes I am aware of that I am exagurating but you'll get the point ...
by Michael Demiguros



I guess i have o agree with you on buu but didnt it take some kind of spiritual blast to take out janemba. Also cant janemba create a copy of superman lyk he did against goku

[potential]

Boo would be hard for any western comic hero to beat ... Because to do that you need to neutralize him with possitive chi (Boo is pure negative).
Boo can even regenerate in gas form (when all the atom's have separated).
To turn him into plasma though (shatter the atom's) would probobly kill him.
So Superman's heat-vision woiuld fix that, or he can just go back in time and prevbent Bibidi from making Boo.
Janemba would be easy though, a punch from Superman Prime is like a centillion (10^600) puches from Gojiita, yes I am aware of that I am exagurating but you'll get the point ...[QUOTE]
by Michael Demiguros



I guess i have o agree with you on buu but didnt it take some kind of spiritual blast to take out janemba. Also cant janemba create a copy of superman lyk he did against goku

[~Shin~]

First, Don't double post. Second, janemba is non canon. Third, janemba didn't create a goku clone, i think he just teleported goku to his hand

[Vicious]

I guess i have o agree with you on buu but didnt it take some kind of spiritual blast to take out janemba. Also cant janemba create a copy of superman lyk he did against goku
well to me i thought,
Janemba>>>>>Kid buu
and also
Janemba>>>>ssj3

it took ssj Gogeta soul punisher to kill janemba.

[potential]

Firemind, then how did goku get damaged by it. Also i guess Superman can take on the z verse if he could beat the two people that are hard to defeat on p, strength alone

[~Shin~]

I think when he was about to shoot the kamehameha wave janemba teleported him to his hand and then teleported him back so goku pretty much hit himself

[potential]

But he was a super sayain when he blasted it and the one in Janemba hand was reguluar sayain

[~Shin~]

From what i remember it was the same ssj3 goku, i'll try to find it in youtube

[∅]

@Michael demiurigos, have u even seen tenchi muyo?
What in the world makes u think that supes can break through Z's LHWs? It's pointless to argue that supes can get through the LHWs.
THEY REDUCE ALL DAMAGE TO 0.
And now ur saying that supes can beat the choussins, c'mon be reasonable, the choussins did create the multiverse. They are nigh-omnipotent. One choussin is enough to beat the living daylights out of supes
What Multi-verse?
-- In the 6th episode it was stated that in the universe they created there was a hyper-dimention.
One universe...

But he would stalemate Z because we can't prove if one of them is more powerful or not.

Pre-crisis Superman vibrated his atom's cauing the entire 5th dimention to colpase all together ...
There is no way Z's going to surive that.
But on the other hand, he have 5 LHW.

[~Shin~]

There's actually the 3rd dimension in which the choussins exist in. It wasn't a hyper dimension, it was a multiverse and it was stated in the anime. Even if u don't believe me, they did create one universe, that's nigh-omnipotent and it's way above supes

[∅]

There's actually the 3rd dimension in which the choussins exist in. It wasn't a hyper dimension, it was a multiverse and it was stated in the anime. Even if u don't believe me, they did create one universe, that's nigh-omnipotent and it's way above supes

Obvously I won't belive you if you don't back it up when ezxx showed me a clip where it said that they together created the universe which contained the hyper-dimentions.

But yeah, they would rape Superman Prime, no doubt about it.

[~Shin~]

Go see the OVA Z, that's where the choussins are explained better and i think that's the OVA where it's mentioned

[∅]

Go see the OVA Z, that's where the choussins are explained better and i think that's the OVA where it's mentioned
So could Zettu survive a dimentional colapse?
If he could, then he would win. Otherwise it would be a stalemate.

[Vicious]

But he was a super sayain when he blasted it and the one in Janemba hand was reguluar sayain
goku wasnt a ssj when he shoot the kamahamaha, janemba reflected it with his own clone of goku. than goku went ssj3.

[atom]

Garlic Jr. Is Omni Potent, so Z wins automatically, the 2 Dragons are Omni Potent as well, they could just wish Superman dead.

[∅]

Garlic Jr. Is Omni Potent, so Z wins automatically, the 2 Dragons are Omni Potent as well, they could just wish Superman dead.
King Pikkoro killed Shenlon.

[Vicious]

lol, isnt this Z from tenchi muyo vs superman, not DBZ?

[potential]

Garlic Jr. Is Omni Potent, so Z wins automatically, the 2 Dragons are Omni Potent as well, they could just wish Superman dead.

Superman would probably throw Garlic Jr. in a black hole or something then again can superman kill Porunga?

[Endless Mike]

Why are people talking about DBZ? That's completely off - topic.

[King Bookah]

I guess some people confused Z with Dragonball Z which is quite retarded.

[vagnard]

What Multi-verse?
-- In the 6th episode it was stated that in the universe they created there was a hyper-dimention.
One universe...

False. Hyperdimension is Multiverse. If you see the whole episode you can see that when Kami Tenchi awakes he start to create a dimensional quake that can destroy all dimensions like the differents Ds stated. Z talk about a universe to Tenchi because that's all he needs to explain to him...after all Tenchi hardly was grasping all what was happening. Kajishima stated in Tenchi 101 secrets that Choshin created the Hyperdimension...the group of dimensions or universes in Tenchi Muyo.

Hell...even human Washu can create pocket dimensions like his lab.

Pre-crisis Superman vibrated his atom's cauing the entire 5th dimention to colpase all together ...
There is no way Z's going to surive that.
But on the other hand, he have 5 LHW.

Z survived passing through the body of a choushin becoming pure light and he survived a direct clash between Tsunami and Tokimi. Physical attacks won't damage him.

Like I say before....the only Superman who wins for sure is Pre-Crisis with the sword of truth....Superman Prime is just speculation.

[BRANCHEAD33]

lighthawk wings can through anything but gods...superman prime isn't a god

and you can't say he's faster than Z either

i don't see how supes can win


okay that is a referable point smile-big.

But if i recall goku and vegeta in buu saga were stronger than supreme kai(he is a god) then in GT which I am sure they have progressed goku vegeta full power combined mind you, could not take on superman (as voted by you people)
Thus superman is stronger than a god and thus superman will not be affected by light wings

[Scum]

superme kai is not equivalent to those who created the universe(s), he just watches over it much like Dende does to earth. He just does it on a grader scale. Don't compare supreme kai to chousin plz :<

actually, he just watches over a section of the universe.

the older supreme kai watched over the entire universe, but it's never stated that he created it

[BRANCHEAD33]

fine but i still think superman takes it

[Genis-Vell]

All I want to know is if Superman M could take on Z.

So its M vs Z. (No speculation).

[∅]

False. Hyperdimension is Multiverse. If you see the whole episode you can see that when Kami Tenchi awakes he start to create a dimensional quake that can destroy all dimensions like the differents Ds stated.
In fictional series each dimention don't need to be a universe, take DC for an example, after infinity crisis it was confirmed that there was only one universe.
Yet many (possibly infinity, but nothing's stated) dimention's in the same universe.
But it's still a bit unstable, because all these alternate timelines and all.

I watched the whole ep. 6 and I didn't hear once that they mentioned:
neither a/the Multi-verse nor universes (universe in plural).
I did hear that the hyperdimention's existed in the universe created by the Chousein's.

Z talk about a universe to Tenchi because that's all he needs to explain to him...after all Tenchi hardly was grasping all what was happening. Kajishima stated in Tenchi 101 secrets that Choshin created the Hyperdimension...the group of dimensions or universes in Tenchi Muyo.
I haven't have much time to speculate about it ... But as I understand it.
The chounin's created a universe, with an infinity amount of hyperdimention's.

Hell...even human Washu can create pocket dimensions like his lab.
Dimention's and universes arent necesserely the same thing in fiction's.
And that feat is a low one ... Franklin Richard's created a couple of pocket universes at the age of five ...

Z survived passing through the body of a choushin becoming pure light and he survived a direct clash between Tsunami and Tokimi. Physical attacks won't damage him.
No speculation ...

Like I say before....the only Superman who wins for sure is Pre-Crisis with the sword of truth....Superman Prime is just speculation.
The Sword of Truth ... What did Superman really do with it ... ?
Nothing ...
So you don't really know what he's capable of.
Just like Superman Prime ... You cannot give him limits when he havent showed any.

[vagnard]

In fictional series each dimention don't need to be a universe, take DC for an example, after infinity crisis it was confirmed that there was only one universe.
Yet many (possibly infinity, but nothing's stated) dimention's in the same universe.
But it's still a bit unstable, because all these alternate timelines and all.

No. In Tenchi Muyo dimension = universe. Kajishima stated that Tenchi Muyowas a Multiverse called Hyperdimension. Each dimension is ruled by his own god and has every characteristic from a regular universe. "Our" Universe is the Dimension 3....that's why the God of Universe is D3.

I watched the whole ep. 6 and I didn't hear once that they mentioned:
neither a/the Multi-verse nor universes (universe in plural).
I did hear that the hyperdimention's existed in the universe created by the Chousein's.

They never said that. Z stated that the Choushin created the universe. In OVA 19 Hyperdimension isn't even mentioned....that term was used in OVA 11 and in Tenchi 101 secrets. The only reference to the hyperdimension in the Episode 19 was Kami Tenchi causing a dimensional quake alerting all the Ds of the differents dimensions. It's obvious its a different context. Like I said before there exist sub-dimensions inside Dimension 3...like Washu's lab or the inside of Juraian ships....the term dimension in Tenchi Muyo is used as a equivalent of Universe.


I haven't have much time to speculate about it ... But as I understand it.
The chounin's created a universe, with an infinity amount of hyperdimention's.

Then you understand the whole thing wrong because your lack of info. Hyperdimension is the term used to define all the group of different universes or dimensions in Tenchi Muyo...in other words THE MULTIVERSE.


Dimention's and universes arent necesserely the same thing in fiction's.
And that feat is a low one ... Franklin Richard's created a couple of pocket universes at the age of five ...

And Franklin Richards is a reality warper that can match or heal Galactus sometimes...so how that feat is low?. I don't understand your obssesion to minimize Tenchi Muyo's feats. Kajishima stated that Hyperdimension is the group of differents universes. THE END.


No speculation ...

Yeah?...Please tell me how Superman will be able to damage a pure light being capable to past through a choushin.


The Sword of Truth ... What did Superman really do with it ... ?
Nothing ...
So you don't really know what he's capable of.
Just like Superman Prime ... You cannot give him limits when he havent showed any.


Superman Annual #10, 1984
"Once there was a void, when Chaos held sway, until there were spoken the magic words, 'let there be light!' Some called this event 'Genesis.'" One piece of primal matter formed in that creation somehow took the shape of a sword. That sword floated through space for eons and later came to be known by the strange symbol on its hilt, in millions of languages, on millions of planets, as the "Sword of Superman." The sword is the stuff of legend, resisting the efforts of all who try to capture it, as if sentient, as if waiting for the one being in the universe who is destined to hold it. As the decade progressed, it was no longer sufficient for him to be merely Earth's mightiest mortal, he became the universe".

That's far more powerful than Superman Prime, who is just a extreme powered up version of Superman but it isn't divine in any way. He still relies in Green Lantern ring to do things.

[∅]

No. In Tenchi Muyo dimension = universe. Kajishima stated that Tenchi Muyowas a Multiverse called Hyperdimension. Each dimension is ruled by his own god and has every characteristic from a regular universe. "Our" Universe is the Dimension 3....that's why the God of Universe is D3.
... If that happend you wouldent mind taking a clip from youtube and post it, I am sure all the OVA's are there.


They never said that. Z stated that the Choushin created the universe. In OVA 19 Hyperdimension isn't even mentioned....that term was used in OVA 11 and in Tenchi 101 secrets. The only reference to the hyperdimension in the Episode 19 was Kami Tenchi causing a dimensional quake alerting all the Ds of the differents dimensions. It's obvious its a different context. Like I said before there exist sub-dimensions inside Dimension 3...like Washu's lab or the inside of Juraian ships....the term dimension in Tenchi Muyo is used as a equivalent of Universe.
Look again:
The creator's of the universe.
In our world we created the hyperdimentions.




Then you understand the whole thing wrong because your lack of info. Hyperdimension is the term used to define all the group of different universes or dimensions in Tenchi Muyo...in other words THE MULTIVERSE.
Dimention does not equal a universe in all fiction's ... Get proof.



And Franklin Richards is a reality warper that can match or heal Galactus sometimes...so how that feat is low?. I don't understand your obssesion to minimize Tenchi Muyo's feats. Kajishima stated that Hyperdimension is the group of differents universes. THE END.
When you prove it it will end ...



Yeah?...Please tell me how Superman will be able to damage a pure light being capable to past through a choushin.
... ?



That's far more powerful than Superman Prime, who is just a extreme powered up version of Superman but it isn't divine in any way. He still relies in Green Lantern ring to do things.
The problem is you don't know Superman Prime's limits, like you pretending to know ...

[Endless Mike]

No, no one knows Superman Prime's limits.

However, that doesn't mean we can just say that he's stronger than he's known to be.

He could be just over Skyfather level or he could be omnipotent, but there's no way to prove it either way.

[∅]

No, no one knows Superman Prime's limits.

However, that doesn't mean we can just say that he's stronger than he's known to be.

He could be just over Skyfather level or he could be omnipotent, but there's no way to prove it either way.
That's why I say stalemate ...

[Genis-Vell]

Again all I want to know is if Superman M could take on (and take out) Z.

[∅]

Again all I want to know is if Superman M could take on (and take out) Z.

If he could ... So would Superman Prime.
Because:
Superman Prime >> Any Superman-incarnation.

[Endless Mike]

Except Superman with the sword

[Genis-Vell]

If he could ... So would Superman Prime.
Because:
Superman Prime >> Any Superman-incarnation.

Ok true…but for know concentrate on Superman M.

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=3806254&postcount=112

[∅]

Except Superman with the sword
Can you really call Superman with Sword more powerful?
- No, the Sword itself is more powerful though, not the Superman that wields it.

[BladeofTheChad]

Who the fuck is Z?

[Endless Mike]

Who the fuck is Z?

The guy in my sig.

[vagnard]

... If that happend you wouldent mind taking a clip from youtube and post it, I am sure all the OVA's are there.



What clip?. The fact that Hyperdimension is the same as Multiverse?. You are the one who is trying to prove that a dimension isn't the same as a universe in Tenchi Muyo when both have received the same treatment. You can even see in OVA 11 and Tenchi Muyo secrets. Each dimension is ruled by a different D. That's why in ova 11 Tokimi doesn't interfere with Dr. Clay because she say it's part of D3 jurisdiction. The pocket dimensions like you the one created by Franklin Richards are called Sub-Space in Tenchi Muyo and are created by lesser beings like the lab of Human Washu, the interior of Jurai ships etc.


Look again:
The creator's of the universe.
In our world we created the hyperdimentions.

Yes....they created that universe....just like they created all the other universes. What is so difficult to grasp to you?. Lord of the Nightmares created Slayer Multiverse...that means he didn't created Lina's Universe?. Why Z would talk about a Multiverse to Tenchi when Tenchi hardly know what the hell was happening? It seems you are blind that you didn't see all the Ds in Ova 19...each one who confirmed that Tenchi

You don't even know what are you talking about and you are talking out of your ass. Have you seen the whole series?. Have you read Tenchi Novels and Tenchi 101 secrets written by Kajishima?. You didn't even know the concept of Hyperdimension before I instructed you in TM.

You are trying to use Marvel and DC standards to classify the concept of dimensions and universes. Search a little about Alternate dimension, Parallel Universes, Alternate reality, Mirror Universe, etc...THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. So don't use your shitty Marvel concepts to define all concepts in fiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=alternative+dimensions&go=Go


Dimention does not equal a universe in all fiction's ... Get proof.

Prove that they not equal the same. I already give you a link. Alternate realities still exist in DC...like the imps of 5th Dimension, all the alternative realities in Zero Hour, etc...so don't bring that shit here. It was clear that Crisis didn't work...that's why DC did Zero Hour...and even then the only thing it was cleared was parallel universes that mirrored Earth-1. New Gods remained the same. Even Darkseid remember the Crisis.

The general rule is Alternate Dimension = Parallel Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=alternative+dimensions&go=Go


When you prove it it will end ...

Kajishima's word and D3 is all the proof you need




... ?

You didn't even see ova 19 it seems. You are just talking out of your ass.


The problem is you don't know Superman Prime's limits, like you pretending to know ...

STOP RIGHT THERE. I was the one who said we didn't know Superman Prime enough to make an asumption..You were the one who assumed automatically that Superman Prime could defeat Z when we don't know anything about Prime.

Like I say before....the only Superman who wins for sure is Pre-Crisis with the sword of truth....Superman Prime is just speculation.

Heh, pre-crisis Superman vibrated his atoms to destroy an dimention ...
Superman Prime can do everything and pre-crisis Superman could ... And more.

Pre-Crisis Superman can't defeat Z. You assume that the upgrade of Prime will be enough to defeat Z and you have no proof.

But there is no hint that Prime is more powerful than Z. You can speculate about that. But the fact that he still needed the green lantern ring to perform his only feat in the comic shows he isn't omnipotent or such great as you want to be.

I'm tired of this....seriously...like the other time you are atribuing your own faults to the other part.
I showed you that Superman was one with the universe with the sword of truth..so he certainly is more powerful than Z.

[vagnard]

Can you really call Superman with Sword more powerful?
- No, the Sword itself is more powerful though, not the Superman that wields it.

It doesn't matter. When Thanos was wielding the Infinite Gauntlet he was more powerful than Eternity. No one was saying...."we must stop the infinity gauntlet"...but "we must stop Thanos"....if you have natural power or it depends on an artifact it doesn't matter at all. All it matters it you have that power.

[Gaelek_13]

Z takes this man.

Light Hawk Wings nulify pretty much any direct attack unless you're Godly....

[∅]

DC is a universe ...
Post-Crisis
Some fans refused to accept that the Multiverse no longer "existed" after Crisis, and posited that the "post-Crisis" DC Universe was merely another alternate universe within the Multiverse, sometimes dubbed "Earth-PC" or "Earth-Sigma" (the mathematical "summation" symbol), Earth-2, or Clutter-Earth (a derogatory reference) after the events of Zero Hour. A story in Animal Man by Grant Morrison referred to the Multiverse, with its effects coming undone as comic books, along with characters who no longer or never had existed emerging from the Psycho-Pirate’s mask inside Arkham Asylum. Remarks made in Infinite Crisis #6 (re: Legion of Superheroes, Tangent Comics heroes) indicated that the other worlds' histories had somehow continued after Crisis on Infinite Earths.


So in fiction's dimention don't necesserely means universe.

And I also heard it stated that.
The Chousein was the creators of the universe, and inside the universe they created the hyperdimention's.

Now you link me, or somehow else prove that it is a Multi-verse.
If you can't ... You simply have to accept that it is a universe.

[∅]

It doesn't matter. When Thanos was wielding the Infinite Gauntlet he was more powerful than Eternity. No one was saying...."we must stop the infinity gauntlet"...but "we must stop Thanos"....if you have natural power or it depends on an artifact it doesn't matter at all. All it matters it you have that power.

Yeah but you don't say that it's Thanos' power ...
It's Thanos that's controling the gauntlet, therefore they must stop Thanos ... You cannot stop a life-less item.

Besides the Infinity Gauntlet above the Ultimate Nullifier which was above the Multi-verse itself.

[vagnard]

DC is a universe ...


So in fiction's dimention don't necesserely means universe.

No. That just means that's the way DC decided to portray his universe. In real life and most of fiction: alternate dimension = parallel universe. You are just shielding in a moot point...because the paragraph you quoted don't even prove anything about dimension...just state the intention of the original crisis that was retconed many times...that's the reason of Zero Hour.

And I also heard it stated that.
The Chousein was the creators of the universe, and inside the universe they created the hyperdimention's.[/QUOTE]

You are just making stuff and you aren't answering my points. They never said that the hyperdimension was inside the universe. You are lying. I said already that altenate dimension or parallel universe is exactly the same by regular standards and the portrayal of the dimensions in Tenchi Muyo is exactly like a universe of Marvel. Z was talking about the universe where Tenchi lives. He never said that the Choushin only created one universe. It’s like saying “Sony created my TV”. That means Sony never created other thing (radio, other tv, playstations, etc) beside my TV?

Now you link me, or somehow else prove that it is a Multi-verse.
If you can't ... You simply have to accept that it is a universe.

But first give me a link stating that DC or Marvel consider an alternate dimension different from a parallel universe. You always ask links and you never give one...how arrogant from your part!, You are just making stuff saying that hyperdimension is something inside the universe when the same D3 said that the Hyperdimension was the group of different dimensions. Dimension = parallel universe. The Choushin are hyperdimensional beings because they envolve all the dimensions.

I don't have to accept it is a universe when I know it's a multiverse. You don't know anything of Tenchi Muyo and start to make up stuff like saying that alternate dimensions are different from parallel universes and without seeing anything of Tenchi you try to say how a dimension is portrayed in the series.

Stuck to your comics and doesn't discuss things you don't even know, newbie.

[vagnard]

Yeah but you don't say that it's Thanos' power ...
It's Thanos that's controling the gauntlet, therefore they must stop Thanos ... You cannot stop a life-less item.

Besides the Infinity Gauntlet above the Ultimate Nullifier which was above the Multi-verse itself.

No. You don't undertand. Here we are judging Superman WITH the sword. So it's pointless to try to separate Superman from the Sword of Truth..because both belong to the initial premise.

[Genis-Vell]

yeah Stuck to your comics newbie

[∅]

No. That just means that's the way DC decided to portray his universe. In real life and most of fiction: alternate dimension = parallel universe. You are just shielding in a moot point...because the paragraph you quoted don't even prove anything about dimension...just state the intention of the original crisis that was retconed many times...that's the reason of Zero Hour.

And I also heard it stated that.
The Chousein was the creators of the universe, and inside the universe they created the hyperdimention's.

You are just making stuff and you aren't answering my points. They never said that the hyperdimension was inside the universe. You are lying. I said already that altenate dimension or parallel universe is exactly the same by regular standards and the portrayal of the dimensions in Tenchi Muyo is exactly like a universe of Marvel. Z was talking about the universe where Tenchi lives. He never said that the Choushin only created one universe. It’s like saying “Sony created my TV”. That means Sony never created other thing (radio, other tv, playstations, etc) beside my TV?



But first give me a link stating that DC or Marvel consider an alternate dimension different from a parallel universe. You always ask links and you never give one...how arrogant from your part!, You are just making stuff saying that hyperdimension is something inside the universe when the same D3 said that the Hyperdimension was the group of different dimensions. Dimension = parallel universe. The Choushin are hyperdimensional beings because they envolve all the dimensions.

I don't have to accept it is a universe when I know it's a multiverse. You don't know anything of Tenchi Muyo and start to make up stuff like saying that alternate dimensions are different from parallel universes and without seeing anything of Tenchi you try to say how a dimension is portrayed in the series.

Stuck to your comics and doesn't discuss things you don't even know, newbie.
1. Read the Infinity crisis then come back ... There are elseworld's universes, but those arent canon, therefore not a part of the DCUC.
2. Back up your claims with proof ...
3. Go back a few pages, klick on the link which leads to the third part of the sixth episode of the Tenchi Muyo series ...

Now again ... Where did you hear that Tenchi Muyo was a Multi-verse.
You cannot randomly speculate like you do.
Insteed of just typing about what you recall give us an actual link, proof.
Because you're words means nothing ... Nothing at all, until you have backed it up.

[∅]

No. You don't undertand. Here we are judging Superman WITH the sword. So it's pointless to try to separate Superman from the Sword of Truth..because both belong to the initial premise.
It's like saying ... Anyone with the Spear of Destiny can trash Spectre ...
But insteed, when we make a tier we don't say anyone with the Spear of Destiny, but simply the Spear of Destiny.
And it was not Superman's own powers, it lied within the sword ...
If you dissarmed him he would still be a "normal" Pre-crisis Superman.

[∅]

yeah Stuck to your comics newbie
So are we still on topic ... ?
Grow up (-and join the debate) or go play in traffic ...

[Genis-Vell]

So are we still on topic ... ?
Grow up (-and join the debate) or go play in traffic ...

I don’t want to be part of a topic concerning Omnipotnent or the Multiverse.

The topic at hand is Z (a powerful yet beatable characters)
vs.
Superman (seems to be pick you choice)

I know what Superman is capable. But I don’t know what Z is.
I am willing to post info on M + feats (I already posted link).

Oh and for your information; I was poking fun at Vandard. (I think its Stick with your comics, not stuck)

[∅]

Oh and for your information; I was poking fun at Vandard. (I think its Stick with your comics, not stuck)

I'm aware of that, but even though it was a typo, you still don't had to bring it up, it was "unnecessery"

[Genis-Vell]

I'm aware of that, but even though it was a typo, you still don't had to bring it up, it was "unnecessery"

I found it funny. Take it the way you see it.

Anyhow returning back to the subject at hand. M has shown to be physically stronger then Z. In fact I believe M would punch Z into the past/future/another dimension.

Yeah I said it and what!!!:yell

[∅]

I found it funny. Take it the way you see it.

Anyhow returning back to the subject at hand. M has shown to be physically stronger then Z. In fact I believe M would punch Z into the past/future/another dimension.

Yeah I said it and what!!!:yell

Superman One Million would be second to Superman Prime correct?
I mean he is a 10th dimentional imp-kryptonian hybrid.
He's magics are above the once used by Mxyztplk.

[Endless Mike]

Superman 1 Million is in no way above Mxy.

Mxy is a cosmic who can affect things multiversally, Superman 1 Million had trouble pushing a galaxy and was getting beaten by Solaris.

[∅]

Superman 1 Million is in no way above Mxy.

Mxy is a cosmic who can affect things multiversally, Superman 1 Million had trouble pushing a galaxy and was getting beaten by Solaris.

No Emperor Joker could with 99,99% of all Mxyztplk's power just affect the universe he was in.
You're thinking about the non-canon version.

[Genis-Vell]

He was enhanced because of 5th dimension imp. But his power did not reach that high.

But my knowledge of Z is the only thing that keeps me from knowing for sure if M is capable of handling him. I guess I have to go watch Tenchi Ova’s.

[∅]

Wasnt it the 10th dimentional Queen?

[Endless Mike]

No, the 5th dimensional one.

And Superman 1 Million is nowhere near the power of a 5d Imp.

[Genis-Vell]

I belive it was stated to be 5th d imp.

And he only gained 10 Super ESP. from thier union.

[jplaya2023]

if Z is the guy in mike's sig, why the thread starter state vegetto??

[Endless Mike]

Because he figures if Vegeto and Gogeta can't win, then maybe Z can.

[Genis-Vell]

if Z is the guy in mike's sig, why the thread starter state vegetto??

I think the thread starter made a mistake. Anyhow we have continued to debate Z vs. Superman and he hasn’t said a word about it. So we assume its Z and not Gogeta or Vegito.

[BRANCHEAD33]

THIS THREAD IS NOT TERRIBLE

IT IS CAUSING alot of talk

it is good

[vagnard]

1. Read the Infinity crisis then come back ... There are elseworld's universes, but those arent canon, therefore not a part of the DCUC.

No. Show me exactly were DC draw a line between the concept of alternate dimension and parallel universe. If you don't have a proof you are simply lying and using a false claim to support your points. Don't ask proof if you don't give one.

2. Back up your claims with proof ...

You didn't even had the decency to quote the exact point you are talking about. But you don't have any proof to claim that dimension =/= universe. You just invented that thing.

I give you part of the interview of Tenchi Muyo 202 secrets (the second part given in the features of the DVD of Tenchi Muyo: Ryo-Ohky 3rd Ova Series)

T: Thank you. If there is no other things you "have to" say on behaves of AIC(grin). Let me start our question from the story of "Tenchi Muyo! Ryohki" the 3rd. I know that you already have the big picture of the ending in your mind. Will you put all of your ideas in the the 3rd series this time?

K: Basically, the story will start from clear out the mysteries I left in the former OVA series, such as who are Goddesses named "*Choushin ", why they are there...etc. And the story will move on to Tenchi himself after Goddess ended their war. The story of Tenchi will have nothing to do with "fighting".
(*Choushin=the highest Goddess among Goddess world)

T:Who is D3?

K:D3 is the Dimensional Supervisor for the 3rd dimension.

T:Tenchi is Kami-Sama?

Yep. That is why he was not only able to generate his own Light Hawk Wings, but do material conversions with them.

T:What about Z? Is he also a kami?

K: No. Z is an anomaly created by the Choushin's attempt to find a higher being than themselves. As such, his power is his own and with the ability to generate five LHW's, he is very powerful.

T: I'm still not 100% clear on the Choushin's Purpose. Can you explain?

K: The Choushin are high-level entities who created the 3rd-dimension and the other dimensions as well. However, at some point they became aware of the possibility of a higher-level entity than themselves -- a kami. As Zero couldn't prove the existence of Tokimi-sama when she saw her, the Choushin couldn't prove such an existence, nor could they create such a person. So for a very long time, they did things to try to see if this kami existed or not.

Eventually, the three sisters came upon a new plan of attack. Washu placed her Choushin powers and conscious into three gem-balls, then created an infant human body for herself in the 3rd dimension. She had no memories of anything prior to being left at the monastery and she then set out to learn everything that could be learned from scratch. With this approach, she hoped to find the kami.

Tsunami came to the 3rd dimension as well. Using her own existence, she attempted to create a new type of life -- the Royal Trees on Jurai. However, with the man who would become the first Emperor of Jurai, Tsunami saw potential that a superior life form would be born from them. Thus, she swore to protect him and his descendants while she waited for the birth of Sasami (whom she was destined to merge with) and Tenchi, who is the kami they sought.

Tokimi-sama followed the original plan and distorted the harmony they had created in the multi-verse, the multiple dimensions of the Hyperdimension. She did this to cause anomalies from which she hoped the kami would emerge. Z was the result of her actions and Tokimi took him as he was the greatest potential she'd found.

The Choushin considered Tenchi to be another potential (albeit the best one yet, due to his material conversion ability), but Tsunami and Washu decided that they cared more about Tenchi as a person than whether or not he was that superior hyper-dimensional being. That is why Tsunami interfered and Washu said that she wanted to leave it up to Tenchi. After Tenchi killed Z, it became apparent that Tenchi was indeed that being that the Choushin were looking for. That is why Tokimi became ecstatic and Noike began to cry happily.


Now again ... Where did you hear that Tenchi Muyo was a Multi-verse.


Tokimi-sama followed the original plan and distorted the harmony they had created in the multi-verse, the multiple dimensions of the Hyperdimension. She did this to cause anomalies from which she hoped the kami would emerge. Z was the result of her actions and Tokimi took him as he was the greatest potential she'd found.

You cannot randomly speculate like you do.

Haha. It's very funny. It's the same person who said the Beyonder was omnipotent when canon say otherwise. You still haven't give any info about DC saying that Parallel Universe and Alternate Dimension are different things. I showed you already that in encyclopias both concepts are considered the same (Wikipedia) and you haven't show a single example were it was stated that both concepts were different things.


Insteed of just typing about what you recall give us an actual link, proof.
Because you're words means nothing ... Nothing at all, until you have backed it up.

I already give you a proof. Give me now the proof that parallel universe and altarnate dimension are different things. Your words actually means nothing. It's so sad...you try to pass people your own faults.

It's like saying ... Anyone with the Spear of Destiny can trash Spectre ...
But insteed, when we make a tier we don't say anyone with the Spear of Destiny, but simply the Spear of Destiny.
And it was not Superman's own powers, it lied within the sword ...If you dissarmed him he would still be a "normal" Pre-crisis Superman.

It doesn't matter at all if his opponent can't dissarm him at all because like the paragraph i gave above he WAS THE UNIVERSE...I could say the same about Superman Prime who used Green Lantern Ring against Solaris...that wasn't his true power. The only feat of Superman Prime depended on an external source.

So are we still on topic ... ?
Grow up (-and join the debate) or go play in traffic ...

It's funny because you were the one who started to bring this thread downhill with your whole argument "dimension =/= universe" without a link to claim that.

Oh and for your information; I was poking fun at Vandard. (I think its Stick with your comics, not stuck)

My mistake. My first language is spanish. But everyone can make a mistake or a typo. Isn't that true Vandard? :P

[Genis-Vell]

My mistake. My first language is spanish. But everyone can make a mistake or a typo. Isn't that true Vandard? :P

lol...por lo menos notas que estoy bromeando y no me mandas a jugar en la
trafico; come nuestro amigo Michael.

[vagnard]

lol...por lo menos notas que estoy bromeando y no me mandas a jugar en la
trafico; come nuestro amigo Michael.

Michael tiene una tendencia a sobre reaccionar y a atribuir errores propios a los demás. Todavía le duele haber perdido en el debate acerca The Beyonder. :cry

[Genis-Vell]

Michael tiene una tendencia a sobre reaccionar y a atribuir errores propios a los demás. Todavía le duele haber perdido en el debate acerca The Beyonder. :cry

Ase falta que refine su manera de debatir, pero no yega al nievel de jaladas que demuestra Phenom o Japlaya.

Oh por si acaso sabes donde puedo vajar el anime de Tenchi Muyo?

[vagnard]

Ase falta que refine su manera de debatir, pero no yega al nievel de jaladas que demuestra Phenom o Japlaya.

Oh por si acaso sabes donde puedo vajar el anime de Tenchi Muyo?

En youtube hay algunos caps. de la serie 3 de ovas. No se donde puedes encontrar los antiguos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXb1XIFokEI&mode=related&search=

[∅]

Michael tiene una tendencia a sobre reaccionar y a atribuir errores propios a los demás. Todavía le duele haber perdido en el debate acerca The Beyonder. :cry
Of course Beyonder owns others ... Becuase he was omnipotent ...
(I've maybe just read Spanish for a year but I'm no idiot, speak five languages though)

Well, you're probobly the bigest Tenchi fanboy I've seen ... No, you are the bigest Tenchi Muyo fanboy I ever seen ... Just like Jplaya and Naruto and DBZ ... Maybe you're even worse ... Becuase I don't see any proof or evidence that suports you're idea ...

[Genis-Vell]

Biggest Saint Seiya fanboy here (and Xenogears):nuts
Downloading the entire SS in DVD quality.
And working on the Scanlation of Saint Seiya Ep. G.

[vagnard]

Of course Beyonder owns others ... Becuase he was omnipotent ...
(I've maybe just read Spanish for a year but I'm no idiot, speak five languages though)

Well, you're probobly the bigest Tenchi fanboy I've seen ... No, you are the bigest Tenchi Muyo fanboy I ever seen ... Just like Jplaya and Naruto and DBZ ... Maybe you're even worse ... Becuase I don't see any proof or evidence that suports you're idea ...

Thanks to prove my point. Because you weren't capable to answer any of my points in the whole debate. You even overlooked the Kajishima's interview from Tenchi 202 Secrets from Ova 3 DVD.

I gave you the proof you wanted. I'm still waiting for the statement that claims that an "alternate dimension is different from a parallel universe"

You are the worst comic fanboy I ever seen. You ask proof all the time and you don't give even a single one. Then when someone post the proof you don't even answer and overlook the facts. Great poster you are! :thumbs

The Beyonder isn't omnipotent and you know that. He gave the half of his power...so his power isn't infinite. Several times during the comics his power was measured in quantity...so Beyonder isn't infinite...no matter how much the cold truth hurts you.

[∅]

T: Thank you. If there is no other things you "have to" say on behaves of AIC(grin). Let me start our question from the story of "Tenchi Muyo! Ryohki" the 3rd. I know that you already have the big picture of the ending in your mind. Will you put all of your ideas in the the 3rd series this time?

K: Basically, the story will start from clear out the mysteries I left in the former OVA series, such as who are Goddesses named "*Choushin ", why they are there...etc. And the story will move on to Tenchi himself after Goddess ended their war. The story of Tenchi will have nothing to do with "fighting".
(*Choushin=the highest Goddess among Goddess world)

T:Who is D3?

K:D3 is the Dimensional Supervisor for the 3rd dimension.

T:Tenchi is Kami-Sama?

Yep. That is why he was not only able to generate his own Light Hawk Wings, but do material conversions with them.

T:What about Z? Is he also a kami?

K: No. Z is an anomaly created by the Choushin's attempt to find a higher being than themselves. As such, his power is his own and with the ability to generate five LHW's, he is very powerful.

T: I'm still not 100% clear on the Choushin's Purpose. Can you explain?

K: The Choushin are high-level entities who created the 3rd-dimension and the other dimensions as well. However, at some point they became aware of the possibility of a higher-level entity than themselves -- a kami. As Zero couldn't prove the existence of Tokimi-sama when she saw her, the Choushin couldn't prove such an existence, nor could they create such a person. So for a very long time, they did things to try to see if this kami existed or not.

Eventually, the three sisters came upon a new plan of attack. Washu placed her Choushin powers and conscious into three gem-balls, then created an infant human body for herself in the 3rd dimension. She had no memories of anything prior to being left at the monastery and she then set out to learn everything that could be learned from scratch. With this approach, she hoped to find the kami.

Tsunami came to the 3rd dimension as well. Using her own existence, she attempted to create a new type of life -- the Royal Trees on Jurai. However, with the man who would become the first Emperor of Jurai, Tsunami saw potential that a superior life form would be born from them. Thus, she swore to protect him and his descendants while she waited for the birth of Sasami (whom she was destined to merge with) and Tenchi, who is the kami they sought.

Tokimi-sama followed the original plan and distorted the harmony they had created in the multi-verse, the multiple dimensions of the Hyperdimension. She did this to cause anomalies from which she hoped the kami would emerge. Z was the result of her actions and Tokimi took him as he was the greatest potential she'd found.

The Choushin considered Tenchi to be another potential (albeit the best one yet, due to his material conversion ability), but Tsunami and Washu decided that they cared more about Tenchi as a person than whether or not he was that superior hyper-dimensional being. That is why Tsunami interfered and Washu said that she wanted to leave it up to Tenchi. After Tenchi killed Z, it became apparent that Tenchi was indeed that being that the Choushin were looking for. That is why Tokimi became ecstatic and Noike began to cry happily.





Tokimi-sama followed the original plan and distorted the harmony they had created in the multi-verse, the multiple dimensions of the Hyperdimension. She did this to cause anomalies from which she hoped the kami would emerge. Z was the result of her actions and Tokimi took him as he was the greatest potential she'd found.
How can we be sure this interview is real, there are a lot of fakes and edited once, for exmaple the Dragonball faster than light (cannot recall the name)


Haha. It's very funny. It's the same person who said the Beyonder was omnipotent when canon say otherwise. You still haven't give any info about DC saying that Parallel Universe and Alternate Dimension are different things. I showed you already that in encyclopias both concepts are considered the same (Wikipedia) and you haven't show a single example were it was stated that both concepts were different things.
Of course canon Beyonder is not omnipotent ... Because pre-retcon means "not longer canon" ... Seriously ... You're probobly the most dense member ...

And I can't find anything on wikipedia that says that Tenchi Muyo is a Multi-verse, the only place I can find it is on this forum ... Odd, huh?


I already give you a proof. Give me now the proof that parallel universe and altarnate dimension are different things. Your words actually means nothing. It's so sad...you try to pass people your own faults.
DC is a universe ...
Fiction (You better have that word looked up) ...
Infinity crisis is a good series as well, buy it, read it come back ...
You can even see it on wikipedia, that DC now is a universe, yet contains many dimension's.
The 5th dimension is one with he 3rd in DC ect.

It's not proven that a dimention is necesserly a universe, though the term is used to describe a universe.
It's all based on theories ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension
No one can prove anything ... We can't even prove how big our own galaxy is.

So if you make a fictional series, then you can chose if you want to make each dimension a universe or many dimension's in a universe.

And the proof is the 3rd part of the 6th episode ... In the actual series ...
The world the Chousein's created contained the hyper-dimension's
They were the creator's of the universe ... Not this or ours, but "the".
Just like Ezxx proved.

It's funny because you were the one who started to bring this thread downhill with your whole argument "dimension =/= universe" without a link to claim that.
A dimension isnt necesserly a universe, because there is no actual proof of it, scientist's can just speculate ... However writer's of fictional seires can do whatever they want.

[∅]

The Beyonder isn't omnipotent and you know that. He gave the half of his power...so his power isn't infinite. Several times during the comics his power was measured in quantity...so Beyonder isn't infinite...no matter how much the cold truth hurts you.
... Who are you who haven't even read the secret wars to debate about it?
It was stated to be all of the powers in the Multi-verse millions of times combinded.
He was all of the powers, the rest had no power when comparing to him.
The millions of times is just to clearify that it's much.
And it wasent even his true powers, just a fraction of it.
All he needed to show so the other's wouldent all jump over him together.
To show the he's the judge and the rules shall and cannot be violated.

Later it was stated that the Beyond-realm's power made the Marvel Multi-verse look like a drop in the ocean.
If you like math I can tall that there's about 22 quintillion drop's in the ocean.

But how can he only be that powerful if he:
Created universes (or Beyond-verses) infinity times bigger than the Marvel Multi-verse.

He was a "God" from an other Omniverse, he could do anything to the once he manipulated ...

He had as much power as he wanted, and everyone had as much power as he allowed them to have.
Beyonder killed and resurected Dazzler, with ease if I might add ... Even though she was "equal to him".

She was equal to Beyonder with limitations ...

Here's a very, very rare card that was given out back in the 80's.
http://www.marveloverpower.com/OverPower/Marvel_OverPower/MarvelOverpowerPics/mopheroes/BeyonderIQ.jpg

Beyonder (and his creation-) Molecule man talk's about Beyonder's powers, since he is the sum of everything and beyond. (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg)

Beyonder was omnipotent and he was the only one who was (unique). (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderisrealitydw2.jpg)

Beyonder could destroy the entire time-stream. (http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondercouldshatterthetimestreamzx6. jpg)

Beyonder stated to have limitations:
Greatest one, he was so limited that he bacame drunk ... Yet he could destroy a universe with a thought. (http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dstrangeonbeyonder2pu4.jpg)

After the battle with Molecule man ...
His powers were under limitations ... (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderimposinglimitsqn6.jpg)

Beyonder also killed Doom, whom had absorbed all of Beyonders powers (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doctordoomvsbeyonderxh5.jpg)

[vagnard]

How can we be sure this interview is real, there are a lot of fakes and edited once, for exmaple the Dragonball faster than light (cannot recall the name)


How nerve to said that when you haven't even post something to validate your claim that dimension =/= universe. What do you want?. That I send you a copy of OVA 3 DVD?. Are you that densed? that retarded?.

Of course canon Beyonder is not omnipotent ... Because pre-retcon means "not longer canon" ... Seriously ... You're probobly the most dense member ...

No. You are probably the most stupid guy in this forum. When I ever claimed that i was talking about post-retcon Beyonder?. I always was talking about pre-retcon Beyonder that isn't omnipotent too. No version of the Beyonder is omnipotent. Endless and me already proved that in the other thread but your mind isn't capable to grasp what omnipotent truly means.

Beyonder = a being with great power but limitations (his power is medible, he can gave the half of his power...he didn't know everything, etc)

And I can't find anything on wikipedia that says that Tenchi Muyo is a Multi-verse, the only place I can find it is on this forum ... Odd, huh?

I can find any place where it was stated that dimension =/= universe. Even in wikipedia I gave a link where were stated as the same thing: "Parallel Universe, Alternate Dimension, Alternate Reality, etc". You have the nerve to discuss about Tenchi when you haven't even see a whole episode, you haven't read the novels or the interviews of Masaki Kajishima. On the other hand I have seen Tenchi and I read comics too (better than you it seems if you aren't capable to tell what omnipotent really means). You are in no place to judge Tenchi with your incomplete info. You are just obsesed because you were owned in the previous thread and now you try to apply some own concepts that aren't even part of DC to Tenchi.

DC is a universe ...
Fiction (You better have that word looked up) ...
Infinity crisis is a good series as well, buy it, read it come back ...
You can even see it on wikipedia, that DC now is a universe, yet contains many dimension's.
The 5th dimension is one with he 3rd in DC ect.

Show me a scan that said the 5th dimension isn't an altenate universe. You just were proved wrong with Zero Hour. Parallel universes and timelines still exist in DC. Even if the concept was right you wouldn't have any case because the general convention is "alternate dimension = parallel universe" if you don't even know that I don't know what you are discussing. Masaki Kajishima named the Hyper-Dimension = Multiverse. THE END. You are just desesperate because i proved you wrong again.

It's not proven that a dimention is necesserly a universe, though the term is used to describe a universe.
It's all based on theories ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension
No one can prove anything ... We can't even prove how big our own galaxy is.

It is, Stephen Hawking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_dimension

Alternate Dimension is defined as the same of parallel universe, alternate reality, Mirror Universe, etc. That's the general conception of dimension and universes. Even if DC said they are differents (and that was never stated only in your little mind) they are the exception because the general conception is Parallel Universe = Alternate Dimension

So if you make a fictional series, then you can chose if you want to make each dimension a universe or many dimension's in a universe.

False. Stop with the stupid relativism. Parallel Universe = Alternate dimension in every encyclopedia. You are basing your whole argument in a claim that has no ground. Until it's stated the contrary Parallel Universe = Alternate dimension. Even more in the case of Tenchi where the organization of the Choushin, the travel of Z to bring the Counterreactor and the Ds are exactly like Multiverse works in Marvel. Even more...Kajishima himself stated Hyperdimension = Multiverse.

And the proof is the 3rd part of the 6th episode ... In the actual series ...
The world the Chousein's created contained the hyper-dimension's
They were the creator's of the universe ... Not this or ours, but "the".
Just like Ezxx proved.

When it was stated that the universe contained the hyper-dimension?. You are just making stuff. It's the contrary according to the creator of the series:

Tokimi-sama followed the original plan and distorted the harmony they had created in the multi-verse, the multiple dimensions of the Hyperdimension. She did this to cause anomalies from which she hoped the kami would emerge. Z was the result of her actions and Tokimi took him as he was the greatest potential she'd found.

I said before. Just because I say: I bought the new t-shirt of Lacoste it doesn't mean that I haven't bought any other t-shirt. You are just playing semantics and you are losing. Why Z would refer about the Hyper-Dimension to Tenchi when even Zero...a highly developed android of Dr. Clay couldn't even grasp the concept of Hyper-Dimension when she saw Tokimi?. What would be the point to explain that to a normal human if that human never have met or know about other universes?.

A dimension isnt necesserly a universe, because there is no actual proof of it, scientist's can just speculate ... However writer's of fictional seires can do whatever they want.

Again. Don't bring stupid relativism when you are against the wall. Under all concepts know by the humanity right now Alternate Dimension = Parallel Universe. I already gave a link about that but you overlooked. You are just trying to apply your own interpretation to Tenchi Muyo.

[vagnard]

... Who are you who haven't even read the secret wars to debate about it?

Yes. I have read Secrets Wars many times, unlike you who haven't even see a single episode of Tenchi Muyo, haven't read the novels or the interviews, thank you.

It was stated to be all of the powers in the Multi-verse millions of times combinded. He was all of the powers, the rest had no power when comparing to him.
The millions of times is just to clearify that it's much.

Million times = a number...therefore no infinite...so he isn't omnipotent. If he was omnipotent the statement should say..."He has all the powers of the universe combined and infinite powers beyond that". Your pathetic excuse doesn't save a weak like the Beyonder. :wink

And it wasent even his true powers, just a fraction of it.
All he needed to show so the other's wouldent all jump over him together.
To show the he's the judge and the rules shall and cannot be violated.

It doesn't matter how powerful he gets if he still has a limit at the end of the way.

Later it was stated that the Beyond-realm's power made the Marvel Multi-verse look like a drop in the ocean.
If you like math I can tall that there's about 22 quintillion drop's in the ocean.

Numbers...It doesn't matter if the Beyonder was 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
times more powerful than LT. That doesn't make him omnipotent.
The only thing that make him omnipotent is one word "infinite".
Ocean isn't infinite...just like the power of our poor fellow Beyonder.

But how can he only be that powerful if he:
Created universes (or Beyond-verses) infinity times bigger than the Marvel Multi-verse.

He was a "God" from an other Omniverse, he could do anything to the once he manipulated ...

Show me a scan with the term omniverse used in Secret Wars instead talking out of your ass.

He had as much power as he wanted, and everyone had as much power as he allowed them to have.
Beyonder killed and resurected Dazzler, with ease if I might add ... Even though she was "equal to him".

You can kill and resurrect someone equal to you. That doesn't prove you are omnipotent. He hadn't as much power as he wanted...just like you said..."he only had billions of times the power of the universe combined.

She was equal to Beyonder with limitations ...

If he had an equal then he wasn't omnipotent. Even if she had few limitations.


Here's a very, very rare card that was given out back in the 80's.
http://www.marveloverpower.com/OverPower/Marvel_OverPower/MarvelOverpowerPics/mopheroes/BeyonderIQ.jpg

Still...in the comics he had limitations in numbers.

[QUOTE=Michael Demiurgos;6000017]Beyonder (and his creation-) Molecule man talk's about Beyonder's powers, since he is the sum of everything and beyond. (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg)

Beyonder was omnipotent and he was the only one who was (unique). (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderisrealitydw2.jpg)

Beyonder could destroy the entire time-stream. (http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondercouldshatterthetimestreamzx6. jpg)

Beyonder stated to have limitations:
Greatest one, he was so limited that he bacame drunk ... Yet he could destroy a universe with a thought. (http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dstrangeonbeyonder2pu4.jpg)

After the battle with Molecule man ...
His powers were under limitations ... (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderimposinglimitsqn6.jpg)

Beyonder also killed Doom, whom had absorbed all of Beyonders powers (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doctordoomvsbeyonderxh5.jpg)


No of that images proves Beyonder is omnipotent. You don't need to create a multiverse to be omnipotent. So...it doesn't matter if Beyonder is a multiverse. The same Beyonder didn't know about all the concepts and was surprised...that isn't what an omnipotent being do. Many times Thanos stated to be omnipotent when he had the Infinity Gauntlet but we know the cruel truth..

Sorry you will have to do a better effort next time.

[∅]

Yes. I have read Secrets Wars many times, unlike you who haven't even see a single episode of Tenchi Muyo, haven't read the novels or the interviews, thank you.
I can tell you havent read SWII.
But I can tell you that I haven seen much of Tenchi Muyo, just read some of the biography's.

Million times = a number...therefore no infinite...so he isn't omnipotent. If he was omnipotent the statement should say..."He has all the powers of the universe combined and infinite powers beyond that". Your pathetic excuse doesn't save a weak like the Beyonder. :wink
If a being with unlimited power, limit himself, just to not destroy the entire multi-verse in a nightmare or because or a thought. Than yeah.


It doesn't matter how powerful he gets if he still has a limit at the end of the way.
What limit are you talking about, the once he imposed on himself?


Numbers...It doesn't matter if the Beyonder was 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
times more powerful than LT. That doesn't make him omnipotent.
The only thing that make him omnipotent is one word "infinite".
Ocean isn't infinite...just like the power of our poor fellow Beyonder.
LT was like a microbe to Beyonder he said it himself.
In other words ... Beyonder could as easiley kill a microbe as the Living Tribunal for him it was no differance.
And an adult human have over 10^14 microbes.
So if we use the old DBZ pl list that it would be something like this.
Microbe: 5 (pl of a human)/100,000,000,000,000 = 5e-15
And how much should we give LT?
LT >> IG >> UN >> Multi-verse
Let's stay on the safe side and give him a low number such as:
Living Tribunal: 10e1000

For Beyonder reality wasent real, for him he was the onlyone who had power.
Living Tribunal = Microbe for him

So if Beyonder had less than infinite he would sense a differance.

Show me a scan with the term omniverse used in Secret Wars instead talking out of your ass.
I was just comparing it to Marvel Omniverse, becuase it was infinity times bigger than the original Marvel Multi-verse, that's why Beyonder could manipulate it like he did.


You can kill and resurrect someone equal to you. That doesn't prove you are omnipotent. He hadn't as much power as he wanted...just like you said..."he only had billions of times the power of the universe combined.
He had all the power in the Multi-verse millions of times combinded.
He just released that much energy so scare and keep his pawns in SWII in check.

Not only that, Beyonder took back his powers plenty of times.
He gave it to Phoenix, took it back.
Doom stole it, he took it back.
Dazzler got half of it, she went beserk and got killed by Beyonder.

Hmm ... 3 out of 3 ...

If he had an equal then he wasn't omnipotent. Even if she had few limitations.
No ... Beyonder gave Dazzler a part of his limited power.
http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderimposeslimitations3gg5.jpg
See he gave her ½ of his power under limitations ... How else would he be able to take it back.

[QUOTE=Michael Demiurgos;6000017]Here's a very, very rare card that was given out back in the 80's.
http://www.marveloverpower.com/OverPower/Marvel_OverPower/MarvelOverpowerPics/mopheroes/BeyonderIQ.jpg

Still...in the comics he had limitations in numbers.
Well, the card is made after Jim Shooter discription.
The only Marvel card that will have infinity in anything at all ...


No of that images proves Beyonder is omnipotent. You don't need to create a multiverse to be omnipotent. So...it doesn't matter if Beyonder is a multiverse. The same Beyonder didn't know about all the concepts and was surprised...that isn't what an omnipotent being do. Many times Thanos stated to be omnipotent when he had the Infinity Gauntlet but we know the cruel truth..
No Thanos stated that he was Supreme across all the universes, but only if the Living Tribunal allowed it.

You are refering to omnisience, the abillity to know everything, and to think for everyone.
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magnetoonbeyonderfx0.jpg

But Beyonder were not omnisient in Marvel Multi-verse, but he was in his realm.

Sorry you will have to do a better effort next time.
I? -- Go on ebay, purchase every Secret Wars II issue ... Read them and then come back ...

[∅]

How nerve to said that when you haven't even post something to validate your claim that dimension =/= universe. What do you want?. That I send you a copy of OVA 3 DVD?. Are you that densed? that retarded?.
... Go on youtube.com, search for the god damn episode (the right part of it) and post ... It have been done thousands of time ...
... Or is it like I suspect ... There have never been such a statement?
Because you can't seem to prove it.

No. You are probably the most stupid guy in this forum. When I ever claimed that i was talking about post-retcon Beyonder?. I always was talking about pre-retcon Beyonder that isn't omnipotent too. No version of the Beyonder is omnipotent. Endless and me already proved that in the other thread but your mind isn't capable to grasp what omnipotent truly means.
Endless Mike haven't read SWII, at least not in this life time ...
He just hear stuff, look at posts and make up a crappy speculation ...

... Are you saying that I'm stupid? ... I can tell you don't know me ...

Really what's the higher feat:
To be the most powerful being in the Multi-verse, to erease it (with all the beings inside) and reacreate it even bigger than before, even though it had no limitations in the first place?
And later unmake the action, like it never happend (Time manipulation)
Pluss making everyone bow in front of you ..

Or.

To save on who claims to have created a world which contained the hyper-dimentions?

Beyonder = a being with great power but limitations (his power is medible, he can gave the half of his power...he didn't know everything, etc)
He limited himself, he could remove them whenever he felt like it ...
And he didn't only decide how powerful he should be, but he also decided how powerful everyone else would be.


I can find any place where it was stated that dimension =/= universe. Even in wikipedia I gave a link where were stated as the same thing: "Parallel Universe, Alternate Dimension, Alternate Reality, etc". You have the nerve to discuss about Tenchi when you haven't even see a whole episode, you haven't read the novels or the interviews of Masaki Kajishima. On the other hand I have seen Tenchi and I read comics too (better than you it seems if you aren't capable to tell what omnipotent really means). You are in no place to judge Tenchi with your incomplete info. You are just obsesed because you were owned in the previous thread and now you try to apply some own concepts that aren't even part of DC to Tenchi.
Fiction doenst have to be based on reality.
It was said [6th episode, 2/3] We are the creators of the universe, which contained the hyper-dimentions ...


Show me a scan that said the 5th dimension isn't an altenate universe. You just were proved wrong with Zero Hour. Parallel universes and timelines still exist in DC. Even if the concept was right you wouldn't have any case because the general convention is "alternate dimension = parallel universe" if you don't even know that I don't know what you are discussing. Masaki Kajishima named the Hyper-Dimension = Multiverse. THE END. You are just desesperate because i proved you wrong again.
Time lines and dimentions are not the same as universes in DC.


It is, Stephen Hawking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_dimension

Alternate Dimension is defined as the same of parallel universe, alternate reality, Mirror Universe, etc. That's the general conception of dimension and universes. Even if DC said they are differents (and that was never stated only in your little mind) they are the exception because the general conception is Parallel Universe = Alternate Dimension
So ... Do you know what the last script Einstein wrote before he died ...
That the continent-trite didn't move ... Man was he wrong ...
Which proves, intelligence has its limits but not stupidity ...
[Perfectly illustrated by you]

You know what Steven Hawking does there, speculate, there is no way he can prove it.

Kajishima himself stated Hyperdimension = Multiverse.
Yeah i am still waiting for the actual interview, a scan or an little uploaded clip on youtube would be ok with me.


When it was stated that the universe contained the hyper-dimension?. You are just making stuff. It's the contrary according to the creator of the series:
Told you ... 6ep of Tenchi Muyo OVA

Tokimi-sama followed the original plan and distorted the harmony they had created in the multi-verse, the multiple dimensions of the Hyperdimension. She did this to cause anomalies from which she hoped the kami would emerge. Z was the result of her actions and Tokimi took him as he was the greatest potential she'd found.
But insteed of Multi-verse I would say hyper-dimentions, until you get proof.

I said before. Just because I say: I bought the new t-shirt of Lacoste it doesn't mean that I haven't bought any other t-shirt. You are just playing semantics and you are losing. Why Z would refer about the Hyper-Dimension to Tenchi when even Zero...a highly developed android of Dr. Clay couldn't even grasp the concept of Hyper-Dimension when she saw Tokimi?. What would be the point to explain that to a normal human if that human never have met or know about other universes?.
Again until you actually show an uploaed clip or scan and post the interview it means nothing, you're just wasting your time, and mine ...


Again. Don't bring stupid relativism when you are against the wall. Under all concepts know by the humanity right now Alternate Dimension = Parallel Universe. I already gave a link about that but you overlooked. You are just trying to apply your own interpretation to Tenchi Muyo.
Fictions dont have to be based on reality, that's why Superman can fly.
All these statements about parallel dimentions ect are nothing bu speculation.

BtW: What's about the whole; I am winning and you are losing thing ... ?
It's a debate not a contest ... You just sound childish ...

[vagnard]

I can tell you havent read SWII.
But I can tell you that I haven seen much of Tenchi Muyo, just read some of the biography's.

Yeah sure. I'm the one who gave you the link in first place dumbass. You just found pictures of Beyonder on the net and you can't even grasp the meaning.


If a being with unlimited power, limit himself, just to not destroy the entire multi-verse in a nightmare or because or a thought. Than yeah.

They weren't talking about limited Beyonder when they say the comparissons between him and a ocean or when they say he had X times more power than the astral cosmics.

Endless Mike haven't read SWII, at least not in this life time ...
He just hear stuff, look at posts and make up a crappy speculation ...

You are just talking about yourself. You were proved wrong and you admitted in the other thread that Beyonder wasn't omniscent. You just now admitted that Beyonder have number limitations.

... Are you saying that I'm stupid? ... I can tell you don't know me ...


Really what's the higher feat:
To be the most powerful being in the Multi-verse, to erease it (with all the beings inside) and reacreate it even bigger than before, even though it had no limitations in the first place?
And later unmake the action, like it never happend (Time manipulation)
Pluss making everyone bow in front of you ..

Or.

To save on who claims to have created a world which contained the hyper-dimentions?

Are you really THAT stupid?. When I claimed the Choushin were more powerful than Beyonder?. The discussion in the other thread was about Beyonder and Kami Tenchi. so your point is useless as always. Beyonder isn't omnipotent unlike Kami Tenchi. That's what the whole point. Who is more powerful? someone who is stated to have limits like the Beyonder or the true God of another series.

To end this stupid discussion.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dimension

Dimension: (science fiction) An alternative universe or plane of existence.

Japanese: 次元 (じげん, jigen)

Do you want to know what word used D3 and the other Ds referring about what was happening to every dimension?....yes...like you guessed "jigen". (you can heard in youtube if you want) You can see the episode again if you like. So stop to be stubborn and admit that in Tenchi the term dimension is used in the sense of a universe.

What limit are you talking about, the once he imposed on himself?

Yeah...he imposed himself give half of his power....he imposed himself to have X number of power more than the Multiverse combined. These are numbers fella....numbers = finite.


LT was like a microbe to Beyonder he said it himself.
In other words ... Beyonder could as easiley kill a microbe as the Living Tribunal for him it was no differance.
And an adult human have over 10^14 microbes.
So if we use the old DBZ pl list that it would be something like this.
Microbe: 5 (pl of a human)/100,000,000,000,000 = 5e-15
And how much should we give LT?
LT >> IG >> UN >> Multi-verse
Let's stay on the safe side and give him a low number such as:
Living Tribunal: 10e1000

For Beyonder reality wasent real, for him he was the onlyone who had power.
Living Tribunal = Microbe for him

Like I say before....It doesn't really matter if Beyonder was 1000000000000000000000000000000000000 times or 2 times more powerful
than LT. If his power is measured in number he isn't infinite therefore he isn't omnipotent.



So if Beyonder had less than infinite he would sense a differance.

On the contrary...if LT is a microbe for Beyonder then there is a point of comparisson between them. The difference between a omnipotent being and the next more powerful being is infinite. If I'm an elephant compared to you....then i'm a certain number of times bigger than you. So...I'm not infinite.


I was just comparing it to Marvel Omniverse, becuase it was infinity times bigger than the original Marvel Multi-verse, that's why Beyonder could manipulate it like he did.

No. You stated "He was a "God" from an other Omniverse, he could do anything to the once he manipulated ..." If you don't have a scan to backup your claims then don't make stupid comparissons.

He had all the power in the Multi-verse millions of times combinded.
He just released that much energy so scare and keep his pawns in SWII in check.

Speculation. It was just stated that he had the power of them millions times combined. It was never stated that was only the amount he was using. Several times along the series his power is compared to finite things in finite terms...you don't do that with an omnipotent being.

Not only that, Beyonder took back his powers plenty of times.
He gave it to Phoenix, took it back.
Doom stole it, he took it back.
Dazzler got half of it, she went beserk and got killed by Beyonder.

The fact that Doom could stole Beyonder's power is the definitive proof that Beyonder isn't omnipotent.

You like to cite Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beyonder

Power: Nearly unlimited power to manipulate matter and energy, reality manipulation

Although not native to this dimension, the Beyonder was one of the most powerful beings ever to exist in the Marvel Universe. However, he was not omnipotent as many initially believed, being an incomplete Cosmic Cube, with less raw power and the same limitations of a complete cube.

The pic is from Secret Wars 2: Pre-Retcon Beyonder. The end.





No ... Beyonder gave Dazzler a part of his limited power.
http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderimposeslimitations3gg5.jpg
See he gave her ½ of his power under limitations ... How else would he be able to take it back.

He limited his powers in the sense he didn't use his full power all the time. It doesn't change the fact that his entire power had a number and he could give half of it. If you are truly omnipotent you can conserve your power...give all the power you want to another being and remain the same. Beyonder couldn't even adapt to this world because of his full power...an omnipotent being wouldn't have that problem. An omnipotent could do everything and understand everything. If Beyonder was really omnipotent Secret Wars wouldn't have a point at all. The whole point of secret wars was Beyonder suffered the same flaws than humans like ignorance, arrogance, playful evil nature, etc. If he was omnipotent he would understand everything in first place...hell he could be omnipotent and mortal at the same time if he wanted.



Well, the card is made after Jim Shooter discription.
The only Marvel card that will have infinity in anything at all ...

Jim Shooter description in Secret Wars is different. He made Beyonder nigh-omnipotent...no omnipotent. He gave numbers to his powers. Show me where it was said that card was created under Jim Shooter's direction.

No Thanos stated that he was Supreme across all the universes, but only if the Living Tribunal allowed it.

Page 8 of Infinity Gauntlet.

Thanos to Mephisto: "Now I'm omnipotent What should I do with such power?"

You are refering to omnisience, the abillity to know everything, and to think for everyone.
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magnetoonbeyonderfx0.jpg


But Beyonder were not omnisient in Marvel Multi-verse, but he was in his realm.

Omnisience and Omnipotence are united. You can't have only one. You can't do everything if you don't know everything. An omnipotent being would be omnisient and omnipotent in any universe. If he wasn't omnisient then he wasn't omnipotent. That's the very reason because the Choushin knew they weren't omnipotent. Because they were 3 and couldn't prove the existance of a higher being than them.

I? -- Go on ebay, purchase every Secret Wars II issue ... Read them and then come back ...

Don't worry I already read Secret Wars 1 and 2, Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War, Infinity Crusade, Thanos: The End, etc....so now please do me a favor and watch Tenchi Muyo because you are discussing without seeing the whole series.

[vagnard]

... Go on youtube.com, search for the god damn episode (the right part of it) and post ... It have been done thousands of time ...
... Or is it like I suspect ... There have never been such a statement?
Because you can't seem to prove it.

Why I post a video when you didn't even see the video I post about episode 6?

You said so giant lie

Fiction doenst have to be based on reality.
It was said [6th episode, 2/3] We are the creators of the universe, which contained the hyper-dimentions ...

Bad news newbie.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/z1.jpg (http://www.vbulletin.com)

The one who was talking about Hyperdimension was Z, not the Choushin.

He never said: Universe contained the hyper-dimension...so stop lying. On the contrary he just said: "they are hyperdimensional beings beyond normal dimensionality". Like I said above: the word Jigen (dimension in japanese) is used in science fiction to name an alternate universe. This proves how wrong are you...here Z is saying that dimensions are below hyperdimension. When Tenchi was awakening menacing with destroy the universe. Tsunami said:

So. What you understand as universe for the rest of the planet including me it's the same as dimension. Even the japanese use the same word "jigen" to refer dimension or universe.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/z4.jpg (http://www.vbulletin.com)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/z5.jpg (http://www.vbulletin.com)

Hyperdimension is the group of different dimensions. Our dimension is Dimension 3 ruled by D3, Tsunami is worried because Tenchi start to cause a dimensional quake in the Dimension 3 and then the other Ds start to anounce that the dimensional quake is expanding to the other dimensions.

Can you still avoid the evidence?


Time lines and dimentions are not the same as universes in DC.

Show me a scan stating that. You are doing 2 dangerous premises:

1-Dimension =/= universe: when jigen means parallel universe in japanese. All the characteristics of the dimensions correspond to a universe (our universe, the place Tenchi lives is called 3rd Dimension). You are using a "supposed" DC "measure stick" to evaluate to word dimension in science fiction when i showed already that in science fiction dimension = parallel universe.

2-You believe that a timeline or a dimension < a universe. When it was stated that?...If anything a timeline > universe because include the universe plus all its moments through the time.

So ... Do you know what the last script Einstein wrote before he died ...
That the continent-trite didn't move ... Man was he wrong ...
Which proves, intelligence has its limits but not stupidity ...
[Perfectly illustrated by you]

You know what Steven Hawking does there, speculate, there is no way he can prove it.

I wasn't quoting Stephen Hawking. You didn't even read the link. I was calling YOU Stephen Hawking...but you can't even understand a joke. The link shows that universe and dimension are the same...specially in fiction, from an encyclopedia.


Yeah i am still waiting for the actual interview, a scan or an little uploaded clip on youtube would be ok with me.

I already showed you the interview. You haven't show me anything about the whole thing about dimensions and universes as separete concepts.

Told you ... 6ep of Tenchi Muyo OVA

They never said that.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/z1.jpg (http://www.vbulletin.com)

But insteed of Multi-verse I would say hyper-dimentions, until you get proof.

Great. So you agreed that Multiverse = Hyperdimension. Concession acepted. :thumbs


Again until you actually show an uploaed clip or scan and post the interview it means nothing, you're just wasting your time, and mine ...

Then stop debating me. Nobody is forcing you to continue. From the beginning of the debate you are saying that alternate dimension =/= parallel universe without any link to support your point..Credibility = Zero

Fictions dont have to be based on reality, that's why Superman can fly.
All these statements about parallel dimentions ect are nothing bu speculation.

On the contrary. Dimension is generally used in fiction as parallel universe. In real life the term dimension is more used to refer to a parameter or measurement required to define the characteristics of an object.

BtW: What's about the whole; I am winning and you are losing thing ... ?
It's a debate not a contest ... You just sound childish ...

I? -- Go on ebay, purchase every Secret Wars II issue ... Read them and then come back ...

So I'm the one acting childish....yeah

[∅]

Yeah sure. I'm the one who gave you the link in first place dumbass. You just found pictures of Beyonder on the net and you can't even grasp the meaning.
At least I am honest, while you're lying ... I can tell that you havent read SWII, and I can prove it as well.
Open the 2nd issue page 5-6, quote Spider-man's statement.

Actually I have the series ...

One more thing ... Quit flaming, it's a dabate, at least try to act mature ...
You're crying like an 5 year old over a cookie.

They weren't talking about limited Beyonder when they say the comparissons between him and a ocean or when they say he had X times more power than the astral cosmics.
You can't even recall what I said a couple of post backs ...
It was said that the realm he came from made the MU: Multi-verse look like a drop in the ocean ... You can't seriously take the literally ...

Especially since Beyonder created a Multi-verse out of universes, that was infinity times greater than the Multi-verse in the first place.
So let's say we grade the inifnity's.
Universe: Infinity 1
Multi-verse: Infinity 2
Omniverse (today): Infinity 3 (Infinity Multi-verses)
Beyonder's universe's: Infinity 3 (Infinity times the size of the Multi-verse)
Beyonder's Multi-verse: Infinity 4

You are just talking about yourself. You were proved wrong and you admitted in the other thread that Beyonder wasn't omniscent. You just now admitted that Beyonder have number limitations.
When he did make himself omnisient (SWIII) he realized that his powers were far too great for any being to possess.
With it he unmade his action's, destroyed the Beyond-realm (source of his power) and splitted a cosmic cube with Molecule man ...
Later woke up* like it was a dream, but that's because he unmade his action's.

Are you really THAT stupid?. When I claimed the Choushin were more powerful than Beyonder?. The discussion in the other thread was about Beyonder and Kami Tenchi. so your point is useless as always. Beyonder isn't omnipotent unlike Kami Tenchi. That's what the whole point. Who is more powerful? someone who is stated to have limits like the Beyonder or the true God of another series.
Oh, sorry:
To create beings that can ... ect.

Remember, Beyonder created Molecule man who was above all the abstract's
http://img280.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mo2ds6.jpg
http://img270.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mo1ao2.jpg

So stop to be stubborn and admit that in Tenchi the term dimension is used in the sense of a universe.
I must say that due to the interview (not sure if it's real or not) I actually belive that it is a Multi-verse, I am only questioning, because I don't know that much about the series ... Yet ...

Yeah...he imposed himself give half of his power....he imposed himself to have X number of power more than the Multiverse combined. These are numbers fella....numbers = finite.
Beyonder base: Infinity power.
Beyonder impose limitations on himself, so that he can be in the Multi-verse.
He made his powers limited, held it back, like Xavier did to Jean - Phoenix's power.


Like I say before....It doesn't really matter if Beyonder was 1000000000000000000000000000000000000 times or 2 times more powerful
than LT. If his power is measured in number he isn't infinite therefore he isn't omnipotent.
... I am aware of that.
But the point was the Living Tribunal was zero for him.
He said it himself, ´Even the mightiest beings are ike microbes to me!´ (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderisrealitydw2.jpg)
Living Tribunal >> Microbe
But compared to the Beyonder they were both powerless, (´reality isn't even real to me´)
Beyonder's point: Living Tribunal = Microbe

lets say that
Living Tribunal is 10
and Microbe, 1

Which number do you have to divide to get the exact same amount on the other side.
X/10 = X/1 - It can just be infinity.


On the contrary...if LT is a microbe for Beyonder then there is a point of comparisson between them. The difference between a omnipotent being and the next more powerful being is infinite. If I'm an elephant compared to you....then i'm a certain number of times bigger than you. So...I'm not infinite.
You got it wrong you think:
Beyonder > Living Tribunal
As much as:
Human > Microbe

But he did say, that the most powerful beings (Living Tribunal) was like microbes to him.

So we could say that compared to Beyonder's powers both were nothing, thuss making Beyonder infinite.

No. You stated "He was a "God" from an other Omniverse, he could do anything to the once he manipulated ..." If you don't have a scan to backup your claims then don't make stupid comparissons.
Beyonder releases a blast, which reaches the end of infinity. (http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderdestructionacrossmultiverse3e c9.jpg)
The creation later expands to ... the very ends of infinity and beyond. (http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=buni4xn9.jpg)
This was beyond the infinity Beyonder's blast reached.
The universes Beyonder created was infinity times bigger than the Multi-verse.

Speculation. It was just stated that he had the power of them millions times combined. It was never stated that was only the amount he was using. Several times along the series his power is compared to finite things in finite terms...you don't do that with an omnipotent being.
No ... He just released enough power to scare off the others.
You can even see it on the issue:
http://www.ffplaza.com/images/covers/mtu/swii2.jpg

The fact that Doom could stole Beyonder's power is the definitive proof that Beyonder isn't omnipotent.
The fact that Beyonder later owned him, even though Doom had all of Beyonder's powers. (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doctordoomvsbeyonderxh5.jpg)
And Beyonder himself created that Dr. Doom, it wasent just something he pulled out of a existing universe. (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondercontrolovertimelife2an2.jpg)

You like to cite Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beyonder

Power: Nearly unlimited power to manipulate matter and energy, reality manipulation

Although not native to this dimension, the Beyonder was one of the most powerful beings ever to exist in the Marvel Universe. However, he was not omnipotent as many initially believed, being an incomplete Cosmic Cube, with less raw power and the same limitations of a complete cube.

The pic is from Secret Wars 2: Pre-Retcon Beyonder. The end.
Yeah they also say that the Celestial's are more powerful than the Beyonder was ...
And they have a omnipotent list as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_omnipotent_fictional_characters

Isn't it nice? -- Point is wikipedia is not a valid source of proof.




He limited his powers in the sense he didn't use his full power all the time. It doesn't change the fact that his entire power had a number and he could give half of it. If you are truly omnipotent you can conserve your power...give all the power you want to another being and remain the same. Beyonder couldn't even adapt to this world because of his full power...an omnipotent being wouldn't have that problem. An omnipotent could do everything and understand everything. If Beyonder was really omnipotent Secret Wars wouldn't have a point at all. The whole point of secret wars was Beyonder suffered the same flaws than humans like ignorance, arrogance, playful evil nature, etc. If he was omnipotent he would understand everything in first place...hell he could be omnipotent and mortal at the same time if he wanted.
He was omnipotent, just not omnisient there.
But in his own realm he was both omnipotent and omnisceint.
There he understood everything, it was just when he invaded Marvel he didn't understand.

But in Secret Wars III he made himself omniseint by just saying it, in Marvel Multi-verse.

It's like putting L-sama in the Marvel Multi-verse, she wasent the creator of it, she wouldent understand anything ...

Jim Shooter description in Secret Wars is different. He made Beyonder nigh-omnipotent...no omnipotent. He gave numbers to his powers. Show me where it was said that card was created under Jim Shooter's direction.
Hard to find the instructions of a unique card that was made in the 80's, huh?
I mean did normal people even have internet back then ... Guess not.

Wikipedia's discription of Jim Shooter's view is not valid.


Page 8 of Infinity Gauntlet.

Thanos to Mephisto: "Now I'm omnipotent What should I do with such power?"
Well it was proved that he wasent, unless the Living Tribunal allowed it.


Omnisience and Omnipotence are united. You can't have only one. You can't do everything if you don't know everything. An omnipotent being would be omnisient and omnipotent in any universe. If he wasn't omnisient then he wasn't omnipotent. That's the very reason because the Choushin knew they weren't omnipotent. Because they were 3 and couldn't prove the existance of a higher being than them.
Nope it's not always united in fictions ...
You can find flaw's in every "omnipotent" being's omnisience.

Don't worry I already read Secret Wars 1 and 2, Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War, Infinity Crusade, Thanos: The End, etc....so now please do me a favor and watch Tenchi Muyo because you are discussing without seeing the whole series.
Answer my first question ... Then, I'll belive you.
What does Spidy say?

[∅]

So I'm the one acting childish....yeah
I was serious, if you have read them, than you can answer my first question on my prevoius replay ...

1-Dimension =/= universe: when jigen means parallel universe in japanese. All the characteristics of the dimensions correspond to a universe (our universe, the place Tenchi lives is called 3rd Dimension). You are using a "supposed" DC "measure stick" to evaluate to word dimension in science fiction when i showed already that in science fiction dimension = parallel universe.

2-You believe that a timeline or a dimension < a universe. When it was stated that?...If anything a timeline > universe because include the universe plus all its moments through the time.


I already showed you the interview. You haven't show me anything about the whole thing about dimensions and universes as separete concepts.

Great. So you agreed that Multiverse = Hyperdimension. Concession acepted. :thumbs
... And read the post before quoting it.

Above infinity?
http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infipo9.jpg
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infi2lt7.jpg
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infi3rl5.jpg

Fictional characters can ... And Pre-retcon Beyonder is the highest "infinity" demonstrated.

[vagnard]

At least I am honest, while you're lying ... I can tell that you havent read SWII, and I can prove it as well.
Open the 2nd issue page 5-6, quote Spider-man's statement.

Actually I have the series ...

I seriously doubt. First, Peter doesn't appear until page 7.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/peter1.jpg (http://www.vbulletin.com)

Page 8
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/SecretWarsII002-08.jpg (http://www.vbulletin.com)

This is page 6 from the second issue of Secret Wars II.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/wagnar/SecretWarsII002-06.jpg (http://www.vbulletin.com)

Peter doesn't appear at all. You should revise your own examples before making statements like that.


One more thing ... Quit flaming, it's a dabate, at least try to act mature ...
You're crying like an 5 year old over a cookie.

Says the guy who is making challenges that he can't back up.


You can't even recall what I said a couple of post backs ...
It was said that the realm he came from made the MU: Multi-verse look like a drop in the ocean ... You can't seriously take the literally ...

I can take everything that is used as feat of the Beyonder to measure his power. Beyonder = finite. Vast as the ocean but still finite.

Especially since Beyonder created a Multi-verse out of universes, that was infinity times greater than the Multi-verse in the first place.
So let's say we grade the inifnity's.
Universe: Infinity 1
Multi-verse: Infinity 2
Omniverse (today): Infinity 3 (Infinity Multi-verses)
Beyonder's universe's: Infinity 3 (Infinity times the size of the Multi-verse)
Beyonder's Multi-verse: Infinity 4

What kind of claim is this?. So you are making infinite alfa, infinite beta, infinite delta, etc?. By definition a sub-group can't be infinite. It doesn't matter how many sub-divisions you have. You can have a multiverse with 10 universes and other multiverse with 1000000 universes....that doesn't make the second multiverse bigger than the first.


When he did make himself omnisient (SWIII) he realized that his powers were far too great for any being to possess.

If he was omnipotent he wouldn't need to realize that. He would know that from the beginning....and if he was truly omnipotent his power wouldn't be "too great" it would be just infinite so he could do anything like create a being with similar powers than him and at the same time that the being isn't even nearly the same. OMNIPOTENT....we are talking about beings without limitations at all.

With it he unmade his action's, destroyed the Beyond-realm (source of his power) and splitted a cosmic cube with Molecule man ...
Later woke up* like it was a dream, but that's because he unmade his action's.

How many troubles for a omnipotent being, uh?. He could just wish that everything is like he wanted.


Oh, sorry:
To create beings that can ... ect.

Remember, Beyonder created Molecule man who was above all the abstract's
http://img280.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mo2ds6.jpg
http://img270.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mo1ao2.jpg

That doesn't prove he is omnipotent. It just say pre-retcon Beyonder was way above all other abstracts that he could create a being far greater than all of them combined.


I must say that due to the interview (not sure if it's real or not) I actually belive that it is a Multi-verse, I am only questioning, because I don't know that much about the series ... Yet ...

That's why I don't like when you assume things about the series without the complete picture. You didn't even answered my previous point about


To end this stupid discussion.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dimension

Dimension: (science fiction) An alternative universe or plane of existence.

Japanese: 次元 (じげん, jigen)

Do you want to know what word used D3 and the other Ds referring about what was happening to every dimension?....yes...like you guessed "jigen". (

And the other point showing with a picture that was never said that hyperdimension was contained in the universe. Z just say that Choushin were "hyperdimensional beings beyond the normal dimensionality". Then we have all the Ds stating a dimensional quake that started in our dimension (3rd dimension and it's affecting all the dimensions). Jigen= alternate universe, dimension: The word used by D3 to define the dimension in japanese

Beyonder base: Infinity power.
Beyonder impose limitations on himself, so that he can be in the Multi-verse.
He made his powers limited, held it back, like Xavier did to Jean - Phoenix's power.

If he was omnipotent he could get ride of that imposed limitations at will at any time. Hell...he could be in the universe with his full power if he wanted and not affect a single flower. That's the point of be omnipotent...you can control every single aspect of reality and yourself.

... I am aware of that.
But the point was the Living Tribunal was zero for him.
He said it himself, ´Even the mightiest beings are ike microbes to me!´ (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderisrealitydw2.jpg)
Living Tribunal >> Microbe
But compared to the Beyonder they were both powerless, (´reality isn't even real to me´)
Beyonder's point: Living Tribunal = Microbe

lets say that
Living Tribunal is 10
and Microbe, 1

Which number do you have to divide to get the exact same amount on the other side.
X/10 = X/1 - It can just be infinity.

No. It isn't infinite. If a bomb drop right now in the universe killing every single being except me and all microbes on the Earth....that would make me omnipotent?. This statement just say the relative difference between Beyonder and LT....it doesn't show he is omnipotent.

You got it wrong you think:
Beyonder > Living Tribunal
As much as:
Human > Microbe

But he did say, that the most powerful beings (Living Tribunal) was like microbes to him.

So we could say that compared to Beyonder's powers both were nothing, thuss making Beyonder infinite.

No. We can't say that. The only thing we can say is that the Beyonder is many times more powerful than LT...nothing more. You can infer he is omnipotent from a statement like that....in fact why make so retoric statements when it would be just much more simple to say: "Beyonder is infinite, omnipotent and omniscence". Why the writers take so many troubles to make comparissons with the Beyonder?. The answer is simple: Because Beyonder's power can be measure in numbers.


Beyonder releases a blast, which reaches the end of infinity. (http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderdestructionacrossmultiverse3e c9.jpg)
The creation later expands to ... the very ends of infinity and beyond. (http://img283.imageshack.us/my.php?image=buni4xn9.jpg)
This was beyond the infinity Beyonder's blast reached.
The universes Beyonder created was infinity times bigger than the Multi-verse.

I still don't see the word "omniverse" in the scans. Beyonder can destroy all the multiverses he wants...that won't make him omnipotent. He already showed to have limits....no amounts of feats can change that fact.

[vagnard]

Especially since Beyonder created a Multi-verse out of universes, that was infinity times greater than the Multi-verse in the first place.
So let's say we grade the inifnity's.
Universe: Infinity 1
Multi-verse: Infinity 2
Omniverse (today): Infinity 3 (Infinity Multi-verses)
Beyonder's universe's: Infinity 3 (Infinity times the size of the Multi-verse)
Beyonder's Multi-verse: Infinity 4

What kind of claim is this?. So you are making infinite alfa, infinite beta, infinite delta, etc?. By definition a sub-group can't be infinite. It doesn't matter how many sub-divisions you have. You can have a multiverse with 10 universes and other multiverse with 1000000 universes....that doesn't make the second multiverse bigger than the first.


When he did make himself omnisient (SWIII) he realized that his powers were far too great for any being to possess.

If he was omnipotent he wouldn't need to realize that. He would know that from the beginning....and if he was truly omnipotent his power wouldn't be "too great" it would be just infinite so he could do anything like create a being with similar powers than him and at the same time that the being isn't even nearly the same. OMNIPOTENT....we are talking about beings without limitations at all.

With it he unmade his action's, destroyed the Beyond-realm (source of his power) and splitted a cosmic cube with Molecule man ...
Later woke up* like it was a dream, but that's because he unmade his action's.

How many troubles for a omnipotent being, uh?. He could just wish that everything is like he wanted.

Oh, sorry:
To create beings that can ... ect.

Remember, Beyonder created Molecule man who was above all the abstract's
http://img280.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mo2ds6.jpg
http://img270.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mo1ao2.jpg

That doesn't prove he is omnipotent. It just say pre-retcon Beyonder was way above all other abstracts that he could create a being far greater than all of them combined.


I must say that due to the interview (not sure if it's real or not) I actually belive that it is a Multi-verse, I am only questioning, because I don't know that much about the series ... Yet ...

That's why I don't like when you assume things about the series without the complete picture. You didn't even answered my previous point about


To end this stupid discussion.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dimension

Dimension: (science fiction) An alternative universe or plane of existence.

Japanese: 次元 (じげん, jigen)

Do you want to know what word used D3 and the other Ds referring about what was happening to every dimension?....yes...like you guessed "jigen". (

And the other point showing with a picture that was never said that hyperdimension was contained in the universe. Z just say that Choushin were "hyperdimensional beings beyond the normal dimensionality". Then we have all the Ds stating a dimensional quake that started in our dimension (3rd dimension and it's affecting all the dimensions). Jigen= alternate universe, dimension: The word used by D3 to define the dimension in japanese

Beyonder base: Infinity power.
Beyonder impose limitations on himself, so that he can be in the Multi-verse.
He made his powers limited, held it back, like Xavier did to Jean - Phoenix's power.

If he was omnipotent he could get ride of that imposed limitations at will at any time. Hell...he could be in the universe with his full power if he wanted and not affect a single flower. That's the point of be omnipotent...you can control every single aspect of reality and yourself.

... I am aware of that.
But the point was the Living Tribunal was zero for him.
He said it himself, ´Even the mightiest beings are ike microbes to me!´ (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderisrealitydw2.jpg)
Living Tribunal >> Microbe
But compared to the Beyonder they were both powerless, (´reality isn't even real to me´)
Beyonder's point: Living Tribunal = Microbe

lets say that
Living Tribunal is 10
and Microbe, 1

Which number do you have to divide to get the exact same amount on the other side.
X/10 = X/1 - It can just be infinity.

No. It isn't infinite. If a bomb drop right now in the universe killing every single being except me and all microbes on the Earth....that would make me omnipotent?. This statement just say the relative difference between Beyonder and LT....it doesn't show he is omnipotent.

You got it wrong you think:
Beyonder > Living Tribunal
As much as:
Human > Microbe

But he did say, that the most powerful beings (Living Tribunal) was like microbes to him.

So we could say that compared to Beyonder's powers both were nothing, thuss making Beyonder infinite.

No. We can't say that. The only thing we can say is that the Beyonder is many times more powerful than LT...nothing more. You can infer he is omnipotent from a statement like that....in fact why make so retoric statements when it would be just much more simple to say: "Beyonder is infinite, omnipotent and omniscence". Why the writers take so many troubles to make comparissons with the Beyonder?. The answer is simple: Because Beyonder's power can be measure in numbers.


No ... He just released enough power to scare off the others.
You can even see it on the issue:
http://www.ffplaza.com/images/covers/mtu/swii2.jpg

That's just the cover. I don't see the statement about how much of his power he was using. If he was truly omnipotent he wouldn't need answers or limit his power at all.


The fact that Beyonder later owned him, even though Doom had all of Beyonder's powers. (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doctordoomvsbeyonderxh5.jpg)
And Beyonder himself created that Dr. Doom, it wasent just something he pulled out of a existing universe. (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondercontrolovertimelife2an2.jpg)

It doesn't matter how many times Beyonder owns Doom later. It doesn't change the fact that he can be fooled and defeated. The very fact that Doom was able to steal his power shows the Beyonder isn't omnipotent at all.

[vagnard]

Yeah they also say that the Celestial's are more powerful than the Beyonder was ...
And they have a omnipotent list as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_omnipotent_fictional_characters

Isn't it nice? -- Point is wikipedia is not a valid source of proof.

Uh? You were the one who started to use Wikipedia as a valid source of proof and suddenly you decide it isn't valid anymore?.

I don't see anything wrong with that list. The fault is from Marvel and DC where any character with cosmics powers is called omnipotent: Thanos, Mephisto (Marvel says he is omnipotent in his realm), Eternity, LT, etc....The list just points the beings who were called or showed feats inside the labels of american comics.

He was omnipotent, just not omnisient there.
But in his own realm he was both omnipotent and omnisceint.
There he understood everything, it was just when he invaded Marvel he didn't understand.

This is no valid. If he was omnipotent he would be able to remain omnipotent and omnisient in every realm. Are you saying he was capable to create hundred of Multiverse but he wasn't even capable to remain as himself in every multiverse?. If he was omnipotent he wouldn't need even invade Marvel...he would just know everything before the invasion he could just will everything like he wanted and understand all at the same time.

But in Secret Wars III he made himself omniseint by just saying it, in Marvel Multi-verse.

Sorry but Secret Wars 3 is about Post-Retcon Beyonder...he is just a cosmic cube there and he isn't even nearly as powerful as before so the point is moot.

It's like putting L-sama in the Marvel Multi-verse, she wasent the creator of it, she wouldent understand anything ...

The difference is Beyonder belongs to Marvel Universe or "Omniverse" if you like. There is someone on the top of the chain. If Beyonder was omnipotent he would be that "someone" so he would be above the one who created the Earth-616 and he would understand everything by default.

L-sama can't exist in Marvel because it would be a paradox...it can't be two omnipotent beings in the same universe (TOAA and L-sama). If both could co-exist one of them inmediately wouldn't be omnipotent by default.


IHard to find the instructions of a unique card that was made in the 80's, huh?
I mean did normal people even have internet back then ... Guess not.

Wikipedia's discription of Jim Shooter's view is not valid.

So you are the one who decide when Wikipedia is valid or not. Nice.



Well it was proved that he wasent, unless the Living Tribunal allowed it.

That's my point. A character can claim that he is omnipotent all he wants but he needs to demonstrate that. Beyonder showed the limitations I mentioned above...therefore he wasn't omnipotent.

Marvel works like this:

"Haha...now I have the Super Soul of The Universe....I'm Omnipotent"

Next Chapter:

"Haha...but i have the Almighty Brain of Quasi-TOAA. I win"

That claims doesn't hold any ground at all. Beyonder "had the power of the writers" but he still was retconed :amuse

Nope it's not always united in fictions ...
You can find flaw's in every "omnipotent" being's omnisience.

No. It's always just one thing. If some comic claim his character is omnipotent but not omnisient then that comic is wrong....and In any case that character even if could exist as paradox would irremediable lose against a character who is both omnipotent and omnisient. You can't be omnipotent if you don't know everything. If I don't know about the existance of a being I can specifically affect him in particular.


Answer my first question ... Then, I'll belive you.
What does Spidy say?

It was answered. So now, answer my points about universe and dimension and about the use of the word jigen in japanese.

[vagnard]

I was serious, if you have read them, than you can answer my first question on my prevoius replay ...

I already did. I have to repeat myself 100 times?


... And read the post before quoting it.

Well...that's better than no quoting half of the statements at all.

Above infinity?
http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infipo9.jpg
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infi2lt7.jpg
http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infi3rl5.jpg

Fictional characters can ... And Pre-retcon Beyonder is the highest "infinity" demonstrated.

This statement is so wrong that I don't know how to start. If Beyonder could give half of his infinity like they say...then Dazzler would be a exact copy of himself...so he couldn't defeat Dazzler...just draw against him...because both of them would be "omnipotents"....but by definition that would be a paradox...because it can't exist 2 omnipotents beings in the same series. Omnipotent means that you can do everything. If Beyonder make Dazzler omnipotent he should be able to destroy Beyonder...but at the same time Beyonder wouldn't be omnipotent because he could be destroyed...do you understand the paradox right now?.

[∅]

He was imposing the limitations on himself ...
I am "trying" to use less power ... (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderimposinglimitsqn6.jpg)
It's not that he was limited by nature or something ...

Of course there can be more than one omnipotent ... Look at the Great Evil Beast.

The scan's I posted proved that in "fiction" there can be different levels on infinity.

Beyonder didn't gave Dazzler 50% of his powers ... Otherwise she would be able to stalemate him ... She was killed ...
Even if Beryonder had limited powers and he gave her half of it she still wouldent lose so badly to him.

Beyonder confirming that he's omnipotent ...
http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderisrealitydw2.jpg

Stan Lee himself on the classic Beyonder.
Beyonder is supose to represent the power the writers themselves have over the comics.

Beyonder couldnt be destroyed if he didn't allow it ...
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b2ie8.jpg

Have you read DC vs Marvel #1?
There there are two beings called the Amalgam brother's, they were supose to represent the god's of Marvel and DC.
Powers/Abilities: Considering that the Brothers are the sum total of everything in the Marvel universe (and the rest of its multiverse-- see comments) and DC universe, they are incalculably powerful, and even such cosmic entities such as Eternity are like insects to them. The Living Tribunal, the most powerful being known in the Marvel Universe, was barely able to stall them, and was beneath their notice.
They were the sum of the Multi-verse / DCU.
Which means:
TOAA (Marvel God) = Blue (PR) Amalgam Brother = The sum of Marvel Multi-verse.
Presence (DC God) = Red (PR) Amalgam Brother = Sum of everything in the DC universe.

Both are omnipotent ... Now ... Beyonder showe that he released powers millions of times the sum of the Marvel Multi-vers.
Which would mean: The power Beyonder released would be about millions of times the power of both the Amalgam's together.

[Orion]

^^u cant release more power then omnipotent......

[vagnard]

I like how you didn't answered any point about Tenchi or Secret Wars. So I assume you understand at last.


He was imposing the limitations on himself ...
I am "trying" to use less power ... (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderimposinglimitsqn6.jpg)
It's not that he was limited by nature or something ...

It doesn't matter. Even if he was imposing limitations on himself if he was omnipotent he shouldn't be vulnerable. His power was measured and he was fooled by Doom. He certainly isn't omnipotent.

Of course there can be more than one omnipotent ... Look at the Great Evil Beast.

First...the Great Evil Beast was only mentioned in Swamp Thing. It doesn't exist in Lucifer or Sandman. If GEB existed then the Presence wouldn't be omnipotent....as simple as that. You can't have 2 omnipotents beings....ask yourself how you can be omnipotent if you can't destroy or defeat the other omnipotent....and if you can that means the other being wasn't omnipotent. It's the same with the Choushin....you can see in OVA 6 that they say they were omnipotent and omnisient in every aspect except between themselves...they recognized their own limitations by the very fact they were 3 and Kami Tenchi's existance corrobored that.


The scan's I posted proved that in "fiction" there can be different levels on infinity.

There is no levels of infinity. That author smoked weed when he writed that. You are or you aren't infinity...as simple as that. If someone is above you, then you aren't infinite...you can be measure so you are finite. Infinite means that you can't add +1....you already posses all the numbers.

Beyonder didn't gave Dazzler 50% of his powers ... Otherwise she would be able to stalemate him ... She was killed ...
Even if Beryonder had limited powers and he gave her half of it she still wouldent lose so badly to him.

Beyonder gave half of his power...it doesn't mean that 2 beings with equal power will always draw. One can be smarter or more cunning than the other. Inferior beings can defeat cosmics beings...look how Doom fooled Beyonder in SW 1.

Beyonder confirming that he's omnipotent ...
http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderisrealitydw2.jpg

Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet: "Now I'm omnipotent....what should i do with such power?".....months later LT owned the Infinity Gems after Adam Warlock's trial. I wouldn't listen or take seriously statements from egomaniacal villians.

I like how you didn't answered any point about Tenchi or Secret Wars. So I assume you understand at last.


He was imposing the limitations on himself ...
I am "trying" to use less power ... (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderimposinglimitsqn6.jpg)
It's not that he was limited by nature or something ...

It doesn't matter. Even if he was imposing limitations on himself if he was omnipotent he shouldn't be vulnerable. His power was measured and he was fooled by Doom. He certainly isn't omnipotent.

Of course there can be more than one omnipotent ... Look at the Great Evil Beast.

First...the Great Evil Beast was only mentioned in Swamp Thing. It doesn't exist in Lucifer or Sandman. If GEB existed then the Presence wouldn't be omnipotent....as simple as that. You can't have 2 omnipotents beings....ask yourself how you can be omnipotent if you can't destroy or defeat the other omnipotent....and if you can that means the other being wasn't omnipotent. It's the same with the Choushin....you can see in OVA 6 that they say they were omnipotent and omnisient in every aspect except between themselves...they recognized their own limitations by the very fact they were 3 and Kami Tenchi's existance corrobored that.


The scan's I posted proved that in "fiction" there can be different levels on infinity.

There is no levels of infinity. That author smoked weed when he writed that. You are or you aren't infinity...as simple as that. If someone is above you, then you aren't infinite...you can be measure so you are finite. Infinite means that you can't add +1....you already posses all the numbers.

Beyonder didn't gave Dazzler 50% of his powers ... Otherwise she would be able to stalemate him ... She was killed ...
Even if Beryonder had limited powers and he gave her half of it she still wouldent lose so badly to him.

Beyonder gave half of his power...it doesn't mean that 2 beings with equal power will always draw. One can be smarter or more cunning than the other. Inferior beings can defeat cosmics beings...look how Doom fooled Beyonder in SW 1.

Stan Lee himself on the classic Beyonder.

And he still was retconed so that statement was false....he was still limited like any character of fiction to the amount of power the writer decided give to him.

Beyonder couldnt be destroyed if he didn't allow it ...
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b2ie8.jpg

Again. Itachi said no one could defeat him without MS....that means Beyonder would lose?. Absolute statements by egomaniacal villians specially in moments of stress doesn't hold any truth. In fact, the only thing you can say with that statement is that he didn't found a worthy opponent in Secret Wars. Guys like TOAA who are true omnipotent would destroy him easily.

Have you read DC vs Marvel #1?
There there are two beings called the Amalgam brother's, they were supose to represent the god's of Marvel and DC.

Yes....I hope you know that X-over = non-canon.... The only story between DC and Marvel that could fit in the main continuity would be JLA/Avengers. DC vs Marvel is a non canon story were the result of the battles were decided by the polls of the readers....Wolverine defeated Lobo :oh It doesn't serve for your point at all.

They were the sum of the Multi-verse / DCU.
Which means:
TOAA (Marvel God) = Blue (PR) Amalgam Brother = The sum of Marvel Multi-verse.
Presence (DC God) = Red (PR) Amalgam Brother = Sum of everything in the DC universe.

No. X-over = non-canon. They aren't TOAA or the Presence. The Amalgam Brothers weren't even omnipotent because they were two. A omnipotent being is already almighty so the fusion between them would be pointless. X-over doesn't have any validity. In the x-over "Worlds Collide" DC and Milestone were created by a cosmic called Rift. Like you see...every X-over mess with the canon but they not alter the regular continuity because they are like elseworlds...they never really happened.

Both are omnipotent ... Now ... Beyonder showe that he released powers millions of times the sum of the Marvel Multi-vers.
Which would mean: The power Beyonder released would be about millions of times the power of both the Amalgam's together.

That doesn't even make sense. DC universe and Amalgam wasn't even considered in Secret Wars. DC and Marvel aren't even related except in non-canonical comics. The brothers aren't the Presence and TOAA....and Beyonder isn't omnipotent unlike TOAA.

[∅]

^^u cant release more power then omnipotent......
Appearently he could ... Because he came from an "bigger" world.
Not only that, he was the total sum of everything beyond the Multi-verse.
But omnipotence can be defined differently ...

I like how you didn't answered any point about Tenchi or Secret Wars. So I assume you understand at last.
Don't flatter yourself I didn't read it through carefully, I studyed for 8 hours stragiht in two days ... This debate don't actually means that much to me ... After all it's just illustraited stories.

But I disscovered a pretty interesting thing ...
Kami Tenchi isn't omnipotent ... Neither is "The creator" (the one you refere to as TOAA), Presence and no not even Pre-retcon Beyonder is omnipotent.
To make a omnipotent character you would have to give him perfect omnisience, and to do that the writer have to have omnisience.
If we say Kami Tenchi enters "Marvel Multi-verse", how much do he know about it? - Nothing ... Because the editor of Tenchi Muyo (probably) don't know anything about it.

Re-read the SWIII and there was a fine interview look at this:
"The inherent fatal flaw in this is that no human writer can convincingly portray utterly omnipotent characters, and Jim Shooter proceeds to demonstrate this."

- "The inherent fatal flaw in this is that no human writer can convincingly portray utterly omnipotent characters, and Jim Shooter proceeds to demonstrate this."
He made Beyonder as powerful as a human could make a character.

[Real world- My account]
Since all matter/energy in the universe are striving to reach balance, the big bang of creation happends all the time, all the matter in the universe are affected by eachother slowly drawing them all together, the gravity in this combinded universe would be go intesnse that in would shrink the combinded energy to a very smal sphare, this shpare would explode due to the intence amount of energy that it contains and recreate the universe.
But if this happends ... Than the universe must have a limit, otherwise there would never be a next big bang, if it ever were one.

It doesn't matter. Even if he was imposing limitations on himself if he was omnipotent he shouldn't be vulnerable. His power was measured and he was fooled by Doom. He certainly isn't omnipotent.
He tried o help Doom ...
And it wasent any Doom, it was one he had picked from an unexistant universe. - He could take being from universes that didn't even exist.

Beyonder let Doom have his powers ... - Why, and how can I prove it?
As you know in the series of Secrer Wars II Doom gave Beyonder his power back because he realized that he wasent worthy of them.
But a side serie in the issue Micronaut 16, Beyonder defeated Doom who refused to give his powers back.
http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doctordoomvsbeyonderxh5.jpg

First...the Great Evil Beast was only mentioned in Swamp Thing. It doesn't exist in Lucifer or Sandman. If GEB existed then the Presence wouldn't be omnipotent....as simple as that. You can't have 2 omnipotents beings....ask yourself how you can be omnipotent if you can't destroy or defeat the other omnipotent....and if you can that means the other being wasn't omnipotent. It's the same with the Choushin....you can see in OVA 6 that they say they were omnipotent and omnisient in every aspect except between themselves...they recognized their own limitations by the very fact they were 3 and Kami Tenchi's existance corrobored that.
Human's, no, nothing exept a omnipotent can even illustrate omnipotence.



There is no levels of infinity. That author smoked weed when he writed that. You are or you aren't infinity...as simple as that. If someone is above you, then you aren't infinite...you can be measure so you are finite. Infinite means that you can't add +1....you already posses all the numbers.
You cannot ignore the facts that you don't like ...
It's fiction ...


Beyonder gave half of his power...it doesn't mean that 2 beings with equal power will always draw. One can be smarter or more cunning than the other. Inferior beings can defeat cosmics beings...look how Doom fooled Beyonder in SW 1.
As you'll notice above, that Doom was Beyonder's creation ...

But Beyonder was more powerful ... Because he deafeat Dazzler who got mad with the power.

But then again, if you cannot give half of your power away ... Then there is something that you can't do, thuss not being omnipotent.


Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet: "Now I'm omnipotent....what should i do with such power?".....months later LT owned the Infinity Gems after Adam Warlock's trial. I wouldn't listen or take seriously statements from egomaniacal villians.
Let's drop the omnipotence because to discribe it is like discribing the forth dimension in our dimension compared to our own, it's impossible.


And he still was retconed so that statement was false....he was still limited like any character of fiction to the amount of power the writer decided give to him.
No beings in any fictions are omnipotent, because humans cannot not truley understand it.

Again. Itachi said no one could defeat him without MS....that means Beyonder would lose?. Absolute statements by egomaniacal villians specially in moments of stress doesn't hold any truth. In fact, the only thing you can say with that statement is that he didn't found a worthy opponent in Secret Wars. Guys like TOAA who are true omnipotent would destroy him easily.
No one in his universe.
"The creator"/TOAA (-as you refere him to) is not omnipotent.
Because humnas can't make a being omnipotent.


Yes....I hope you know that X-over = non-canon.... The only story between DC and Marvel that could fit in the main continuity would be JLA/Avengers. DC vs Marvel is a non canon story were the result of the battles were decided by the polls of the readers....Wolverine defeated Lobo :oh It doesn't serve for your point at all.
Secret wars = Retconned = Non canon
We can use non canon Beyonder feats so of course we can other non canon statements as well ... Now can't we?


That doesn't even make sense. DC universe and Amalgam wasn't even considered in Secret Wars. DC and Marvel aren't even related except in non-canonical comics. The brothers aren't the Presence and TOAA....and Beyonder isn't omnipotent unlike TOAA.
... Are you even thinking ... No one can make a omnipotent character.
Pre-retcon brother's were the supreme being of MU and DCU
Beyonder is as close you're going to get.

[Gohan]

Boo would be hard for any western comic hero to beat ... Because to do that you need to neutralize him with possitive chi (Boo is pure negative).
Boo can even regenerate in gas form (when all the atom's have separated).
To turn him into plasma though (shatter the atom's) would probobly kill him.
So Superman's heat-vision woiuld fix that, or he can just go back in time and prevbent Bibidi from making Boo.
Janemba would be easy though, a punch from Superman Prime is like a centillion (10^600) puches from Gojiita, yes I am aware of that I am exagurating but you'll get the point ...

And how much punching force do you think Gojita at least has?

I bet i can prove you wrong.

[∅]

And how much punching force do you think Gojita at least has?

I bet i can prove you wrong.

He's not strong, but durable.
Gokou base limit seemed to be 40 ton's.
SSJ Gokou is 3 times more powerful than he is in his base (1,000 - 3,000 kiri's)
SSJ2 would probobly add three times to that:

Gokou base: 40 tons
Gokou SSJ: base Gokou * 3^1
Gokou SSJ2: base gokou * 3^2
Gokou SSJ3: base Gokou * 3^3

Which would made SSJ3 Gokou 27 * 40 = 1,080 ton's
SSJ3 Gokou equalled chibi Boo who was abut 60-75% of Shin Boo's power.
So:
1,440 - 1,800

So Shin Boo should be able to bench about 1,800 ton's at max.
That's little compared to other seires, but he was durible, since he could regenerate in liquid and gas form.

Chi or plasmatization (when you add so much energy that the proton's, neutron's and electron's separate)

[vagnard]

Appearently he could ... Because he came from an "bigger" world.
Not only that, he was the total sum of everything beyond the Multi-verse.
But omnipotence can be defined differently ...


It doesn't matter if there is a "bigger world" than Marvel Multiverse...that only means there was no omnipotent being in Marvel pre-retcon Beyonder. Because you can't have a omnipotent being that can't defeat a "most powerful" omnipotent being....that statement by default makes the first being non-omnipotent.

Don't flatter yourself I didn't read it through carefully, I studyed for 8 hours stragiht in two days ... This debate don't actually means that much to me

Considering that you have avoided half of the points through the whole debate this doesn't surprise me.

... After all it's just illustraited stories.[QUOTE=Michael Demiurgos;6022500]

Don't act mature now after so many pages of debate...you are equal involved in this debate like anyone in this forum. If you don't care you would have drop this subject at the begining.

[QUOTE=Michael Demiurgos;6022500]But I disscovered a pretty interesting thing ...
Kami Tenchi isn't omnipotent ... Neither is "The creator" (the one you refere to as TOAA), Presence and no not even Pre-retcon Beyonder is omnipotent.
To make a omnipotent character you would have to give him perfect omnisience, and to do that the writer have to have omnisience.
If we say Kami Tenchi enters "Marvel Multi-verse", how much do he know about it? - Nothing ... Because the editor of Tenchi Muyo (probably) don't know anything about it.

This is probably the most ridiculous statement I have read in the whole debate. Of course fictional characters can't be omnipotents in the real sense because they are fictional in first place....but they can be written as fictional omnipotent beings inside their own series. In first place TOAA or Kami Tenchi are omnipotents because in their series is assumed that there isn't multiverses or dimension beside of the ones created by them. By Tenchi "standards" Marvel or DC doesn't exist just like for Marvel's standards Tenchi Muyo doesn't exist. But they are omnipotent beings in their own contained reality/multiverse/ hyperdimension/etc... You are assuming there is a fictional "omniverse" that encompases all the fictional universes...but there isn't because in most works of fictions all the other fictions doesn't simply exist and they are their own true and only reality. Jack Kirby or Masaki Kajishima doesn't write Marvel or Tenchi Muyo thinking that their universes are linked. Even DC and Marvel x-overs are non-canonical....for all purposes Marvel doens't exist for characters from DC...and DC doesn't exist at all for Marvel Character. Each series is a separate continuity that can't be compared in terms of omnipotency with other series.

That's the very reason because most people in this forum doesn't make fights between Kami Tenchi, TOAA, The Presence, Idea of Evil or Lord of the Nightmares....each one of them is the true omnipotent being of their own series....they can't be compared because you can't have true omnipotents beings co-existing...that would be a paradox....so for the sake of the argument you can only compare finite characters between the universes....for example you can compare Living Tribunal and the Choushin....but you can't compare Kami Tenchi and TOAA if both of them are stated as omnipotents.
Re-read the SWIII and there was a fine interview look at this:
"The inherent fatal flaw in this is that no human writer can convincingly portray utterly omnipotent characters, and Jim Shooter proceeds to demonstrate this."


"The inherent fatal flaw in this is that no human writer can convincingly portray utterly omnipotent characters, and Jim Shooter proceeds to demonstrate this."
He made Beyonder as powerful as a human could make a character.

You are just dragging the debate to useless philosophical conventions... We can write omnipotents according to be understand what is omnipotent (a being that can do anything). Under your nihilistic logic we couldn't do anything because we don't know the whole picture of nothing. That doesn't make sense.

A character in fiction is omnipotent when it's stated and there is nothing inside the series that contradicts that. It's as simple as that. All the other things are just mental masturbation.

[Real world- My account]
Since all matter/energy in the universe are striving to reach balance, the big bang of creation happends all the time, all the matter in the universe are affected by eachother slowly drawing them all together, the gravity in this combinded universe would be go intesnse that in would shrink the combinded energy to a very smal sphare, this shpare would explode due to the intence amount of energy that it contains and recreate the universe.
But if this happends ... Than the universe must have a limit, otherwise there would never be a next big bang, if it ever were one.

This isn't even relevant to the debate.....


He tried o help Doom ...
And it wasent any Doom, it was one he had picked from an unexistant universe. - He could take being from universes that didn't even exist.

What are you talking about. Beyonder took a group of heroes and villians plus Galactus and put them into a planet. Galactus, sensing that the Beyonder could alleviate his hunger, immediately charged into the Beyond-Realm through a dimensional rift, followed by Doctor Doom. Both were repelled, but the information gathered by Doom later enabled him to use the body of the sound-based villain Klaw as a medium to steal the energies of Galactus' Worldship and then the power of the Beyonder itself. There is no excuse...that isn't how an omnipotent being is portrayed.

[vagnard]

Beyonder let Doom have his powers ... - Why, and how can I prove it?
As you know in the series of Secrer Wars II Doom gave Beyonder his power back because he realized that he wasent worthy of them.
But a side serie in the issue Micronaut 16, Beyonder defeated Doom who refused to give his powers back.
http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doctordoomvsbeyonderxh5.jpg

This is just speculation. If Beyonder would have given his power to Doom purpously he wouldn't have struggled so hard in Klaw's body to recover them. We are not talking here who is more powerful or intelligent....who are talking that the very fact a mortal being like Dr. Doom could steal Beyonder's power proves he isn't omnipotent. It doesn't matter if after that Beyonder could defeat Doom easily....there was a moment where he wasn't aware of Doom's plans to the extent his power where stoled...that's the whole point of the discussion.


Human's, no, nothing exept a omnipotent can even illustrate omnipotence.

Yeah...and we are discussing about the Beyonder....a fictional character created by a human....shezz..you can't be talking seriously....here we aren't assuming there is a "fourth wall"...in forums debate we take characters as they are portrayed INSIDE the comics....and it can be a omnipotent being for each series while there is only one or that series isn't linked with other series....in other words TOAA is THE omnipotent being of Marvel until the contrary is proven....if Marvel creates a someday a character more powerful than TOAA that would be retcon and TOAA wouldn't be omnipotent in first place. That's the reason TOAA isn't showed (only in the form of Jack Kirby or Stan Lee in some joke issues). In that way Marvel avoids to personalize TOAA or put him in a situation where he could be competed. You will never see TOAA struggling to get back his powers because there wouldn't be a fight in first place. In Marvel everything is TOAA...his desires are his will.

You cannot ignore the facts that you don't like ...
It's fiction ..

Just because it's fiction isn't excent of some basic logical rules. You don't see humans in Marvel with Jelly as blood. You can't have more than 1 omnipotent by the simply reason that the very word INFINITE or OMNIPOTENT excludes and at the same time includes everything else.

For example:

-A claims he has infinite power..he can do everything...therefore he is omnipotent.
-B claims the same.
-A can't defeat B....therefore he isn't omnipotent because he can't do everything.
or
-A can defeat B so B wasn't omnipotent in first place.

In other words you can have only one omnipotent per series, omniverse or what you like to call it.
-

As you'll notice above, that Doom was Beyonder's creation ....

Eeeh?....you seriously need to prove this. When it was stated that the Doom who stole Beyonder's power was his creation?.

But Beyonder was more powerful ... Because he deafeat Dazzler who got mad with the power.

It doesn't matter who is more powerful...the only thing it matters is the fact that Beyonder's powers can be steal with enough cunning and resources...there is a limit for his powers.

But then again, if you cannot give half of your power away ... Then there is something that you can't do, thuss not being omnipotent.

A omnipotent being should be able to give half of his power and at the same time remains with infinite power. It's the paradox of God and the stone "Can God create a stone so heavy that he can't lift?".

The answer for this is that he should be able to do both things at the same time....give a certain amount of power that is called "half" and remain with his full power at the same time. But Beyonder clearly "lost" that half...his power was measured in finite numbers.

Let's drop the omnipotence because to discribe it is like discribing the forth dimension in our dimension compared to our own, it's impossible.
No beings in any fictions are omnipotent, because humans cannot not truley understand it.
No one in his universe.
"The creator"/TOAA (-as you refere him to) is not omnipotent.
Because humnas can't make a being omnipotent.

In a debate about fiction we can describe omnipotence as humans understand it. A being that can do everything. A being that has no limits. The only thing an author needs to do to create an omnipotent being is to say that he is omnipotent and to do nothing that contradicts that notion. So it doesn't matter if the author can imagine things beyond humanity. We as readers assume that character can do things beyond our comprension....that's the basis of fiction.


Secret wars = Retconned = Non canon
We can use non canon Beyonder feats so of course we can other non canon statements as well ... Now can't we?

2 lies doesn't make 1 truth. Just because we are discussing pre-retcon Beyonder it doesn't mean we can bring non-canonical examples...after all Beyonder was canon at the beginning while X-overs never were canon in first place.

... Are you even thinking ... No one can make a omnipotent character.
Pre-retcon brother's were the supreme being of MU and DCU
Beyonder is as close you're going to get.

No. Beyonder was never omnipotent. He showed things he couldn't understand and he was fooled. TOAA, Lord of the Nightmares or Kami Tenchi have never showed any flaws at all.

[∅]

Yeah...and we are discussing about the Beyonder....a fictional character created by a human....shezz..you can't be talking seriously.
meta-battle dome --> there is no such thing as omnipotence, in fiction


Just because it's fiction isn't excent of some basic logical rules. You don't see humans in Marvel with Jelly as blood. You can't have more than 1 omnipotent by the simply reason that the very word INFINITE or OMNIPOTENT excludes and at the same time includes everything else.
You can't have any omnipotent, because the illustrated beings character cannot have more power then the imagination of the writer.
And the writer is human, human's are limited by mind.
The writer literally needs to be omnisceint himself to illustrate a omnipotent character.

Infinity^4 (Forth dimnentional scale) >> Infinity^3 (Our scale)

For example:

-A claims he has infinite power..he can do everything...therefore he is omnipotent.
-B claims the same.
-A can't defeat B....therefore he isn't omnipotent because he can't do everything.
or
-A can defeat B so B wasn't omnipotent in first place.

In other words you can have only one omnipotent per series, omniverse or what you like to call it.
You can't have any if you're not omnisceint yourself.



Eeeh?....you seriously need to prove this. When it was stated that the Doom who stole Beyonder's power was his creation?.
Of course ... http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondercontrolovertimelife2an2.jpg


It doesn't matter who is more powerful...the only thing it matters is the fact that Beyonder's powers can be steal with enough cunning and resources...there is a limit for his powers.
He he actually just gave a great ammount, to make Doom feel omnipotent, because Beyonder screwed him in the other timeline.


A omnipotent being should be able to give half of his power and at the same time remains with infinite power. It's the paradox of God and the stone "Can God create a stone so heavy that he can't lift?".
Exactly ... We can't create any omnipotent beings because we cannot answer that question ...
And no, the answer: He can do anything, don't counts :P

The answer for this is that he should be able to do both things at the same time....give a certain amount of power that is called "half" and remain with his full power at the same time. But Beyonder clearly "lost" that half...his power was measured in finite numbers.
No he din't lost any ... We are now one:
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d2bo2.jpg


In a debate about fiction we can describe omnipotence as humans understand it. A being that can do everything. A being that has no limits. The only thing an author needs to do to create an omnipotent being is to say that he is omnipotent and to do nothing that contradicts that notion. So it doesn't matter if the author can imagine things beyond humanity. We as readers assume that character can do things beyond our comprension....that's the basis of fiction.
Our deffinition of anything, everything is limied, there would be others for it in higher planes that describes it more carefully.


2 lies doesn't make 1 truth. Just because we are discussing pre-retcon Beyonder it doesn't mean we can bring non-canonical examples...after all Beyonder was canon at the beginning while X-overs never were canon in first place.
Beyonder is non canon, we are discussing non canon material.
DC vs marvel was created after SWII.

No. Beyonder was never omnipotent. He showed things he couldn't understand and he was fooled. TOAA, Lord of the Nightmares or Kami Tenchi have never showed any flaws at all.
Omnisience ... No he was not ... But truley, no one is.

Actually they have, even though I don't know them I can say this and be sure.
Why? - Because our definition of omnipotence are limited by the human imaginaion.

[vagnard]

meta-battle dome --> there is no such thing as omnipotence, in fiction

There is no "meta" inside the series. They are omnipotent inside their series because the writers make them like that. Like I said before....it doesn't matter if the author doesn't know what omnipotence truly is. He only gives the general notion that every person knows for omnipotence: power capable to do anything....it doesn't matter if the author can't imagine THAT ANYTHING...the important is what be know that he can do it... it doesn't matter if that is beyond our comprehension.



You can't have any omnipotent, because the illustrated beings character cannot have more power then the imagination of the writer.
And the writer is human, human's are limited by mind.
The writer literally needs to be omnisceint himself to illustrate a omnipotent character.

It's funny because nearly the whole discussion you were saying that Beyonder was omnipotent and now that was proved he wasn't omnipotent you defend yourself saying that anyone is omnipotent?....Oo

Human mind doesn't matter. Otherwise we couldn't discuss anything because we don't know everything...that kind of argument is elliptical and stupid....it brings the debate to a dead point. We are talking about the notion humans have for omnipotence not the hyper definition of a speculative reality....for us omnipotence = the power to do anything. It doesn't matter if we as humans doesn't know what "everything" really means. We just assume that infinite is all we can imagine + all we can't imagine. So while we can define what infinite is...it's not really necessary that we know every component of the infinite...in fact because something is infinite we can't know all its components in first place.

Infinity^4 (Forth dimnentional scale) >> Infinity^3 (Our scale)

The only scale that matter at all is the scale of the author. If he said his universe has an omnipotent being then the universe has an omnipotent being. While he doesn't contradict what we as humans understand for omnipotent is valid for comics and threads like this.


You can't have any if you're not omnisceint yourself.

So...now you are quoting Endless Mike and me?. The fact is the author writes their Gods as they have both omnipotence and omniscence. It doesn't matter if we can't grasp the entire concept of omnipotence and of their compotents...the only thing it matters in discussions like this (between humans unlike you are a cosmic being) is what humans understand as omnipotence...a being capable to do anything....so under our concept some beings in fiction are omnipotent until some proof of above shows the contrary.

Of course ... http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondercontrolovertimelife2an2.jpg

"I brought THAT Dr. Doom to the world I created for you from a suitable future pint"

He didn't create Doom. He just bring him to Battleworld just like every other hero and villian...the only difference is that he bring him from another timeline. That Doom still outsmarted him. It doesn't matter if he was from 616 or Ultimate or any other universe at all.



He he actually just gave a great ammount, to make Doom feel omnipotent, because Beyonder screwed him in the other timeline.

He didn't gave Doom power....His power was stolen from him. He didn't anticipated that...that's the reason he needed to struggle so much in Klaw's body to recover his power.



Exactly ... We can't create any omnipotent beings because we cannot answer that question ...
And no, the answer: He can do anything, don't counts :P

No. The question it's still valid...God can do both things and anything like you say. He can give half of his power and remains as full power even if that doesn't make sense to us. He is infinite so he can gave infinite power....there is no limit for how amount of power he can gave because his own power hasn't any limit at all.


No he din't lost any ... We are now one:
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d2bo2.jpg


Our deffinition of anything, everything is limied, there would be others for it in higher planes that describes it more carefully.

That relativism doesn't make sense at all. If we can define anything then why you are discussing in first place. We are not using definitions of more advanced civilizations....we are discussing like humans in a human forum about human comics...so or course we use and MUST use human terminology to define things...it doesn't make the debate less valid unless we have an absolute proof that refute our inherent notions....just like before Einstein was valid to use Newton's definition of law of gravity. But we can't just sit and wait for an hypotetical being that could change our actual notions. We are disussing with the tools we have right now. And under our system omnipotence is a being that can do everything and you can create a fictional being like that giving that property without actually know everything...just giving the notion that he can everything...even what the same author can't even imagine.



Beyonder is non canon, we are discussing non canon material.
DC vs marvel was created after SWII.

Beyonder is canon. The difference is right now he is just a cosmic cube. Pre-Retcon Beyonder WAS canon. DC vs Marvel was never canon in first place. It doesn't matter if came after SWII


Omnisience ... No he was not ... But truley, no one is.

According to the writers Kami Tenchi, TOAA, Lord of the Nightmares, etc are omnisient and omnipotent (as their roles of true gods). It doesn't matter if the writter himself isn't omnipotent at all.

Actually they have, even though I don't know them I can say this and be sure.
Why? - Because our definition of omnipotence are limited by the human imaginaion.

It doesn't matter...everything is limited by human imagination. Under that concept we should just hide inside a closet and don't say anything....sorry it doesn't work in that way. In fact omnipotence is a human concept...we don't even know if someone omnipotent really exist or could exist....so it isn't wrong to discuss about omnipotence....because we are discussing using human terms.... we don't even know if there are other civilizations in the universe and if these civilizations know or use a similar word....or if in fact there exist an omnipotent being.

So we can use that term in fiction because we are "outside" the fiction so we can just name the thing and let the rest of the humans understand what we mean with it.