Archaon, Lord of the Endtimes versus Sauron

[A]

Archaon
http://www.miniaturespace.net/images/Golden%20Demon/2003/Archaon/Archaon%20front%20large.jpg

VS

Sauron
http://www.temp.sfbok.se/kat/img/54690.jpg

[Thanatos]

I'd probably go with Archaeon. Then again, I don't know all that much about Sauron, apart from the fact that he was very strong... physically.

[Gaelek_13]

To be honest, from the fluff Archaon is insanely powerful.

Sauron with the One Ring though...hmm....

I'll hand it to Archaon with the Slayer of Kings released for the moment until someone convinces me otherwise.

[Goodfellow]

I'd say Sauron, just becuse he seemed to have telekenetic powers (Sauron swings mace, people fall down, ten metres from Sauron). And even if Archeon would be stronger, he would not be able to close in on Sauron =P

And yes, I don't know jackshit about Archeon^^

[Enclave]

Ignore the movie Sauron and read the novels. The movie really didn't do a good job.

Sauron is a Maia, they along with the Valar sung the world into existence.

[A]

And yes, I don't know jackshit about Archeon^^
He defeated Valten, exalted of Sigmar.
And Valten had: Ghal Maraz and the armour of the Heldenhammer, both're the most powerful artifact's possessed by the Higheleves, Dwarfs and the Empire.

When young (mid 20's) Valten's village was attacked by a horde of beastmen.
While everyone tried to flee, Valten picked up two of his fathers smith-hammer's and stroke down beastman after beastman and ultimatelly he alone had defeated the entire horde.

When fought in the Storm of chaos (Exalted Valten) he rided through the legion of chaos cutted through it like butter.
Util he facted Archaon who defeated him

Archaon > Valten (Exalted) >> Leagion of Chaos
Archaon > Valten (Exalted) >> Valten > Horde of beastmen

Archaon also defeated a Bloodthister (immortal greater deamon).

[Heartgobbler]

I assume we are talking one on one, without the armies?
Ok. Let’s take a look at both combatants.

Archaon:

Physical attributes: A huge man, surprisingly agile for his size. Strength and skill about Darth Vader level. About a century of combat experience (his favour with the chaos gods seems to have stopped his aging.)

Mental Attributes: A religious fanatic with magical knowledge and superb willpower. Decades of experience with demonic powers plus a number of sadistic tests set on his way by his gods have rendered him practically immune to fear and mind effects. This guy could keep fighting after being hit with tsukuyomi.

Magic power: Aura of overwhelming fear typical for “lords of darkness”. He is also a mage of medium power. (mostly precognitive powers, minor fate manipulation and direct attack effects.)

Magic items:

Magic full plate armour: great in human terms but not strong enough to stop Sauron’s mace.

Crown of domination: a magic helmet marking him as the chosen of the gods. The eye in the helmet is a powerful amulet, protecting Archaon by giving him combat precognition.

Daemon steed: Archaon’s summon. Not as deadly as it looks but increases his mobility.

Slayer of Kings: A magic sword, containing a powerful daemon. It can wound creatures that are ethereal or otherwise invulnerable to normal weapons. It also makes mockery of most armours, even magical ones. In dire need, Archaon can merge his will with the daemon’s gaining an equivalent of “Kyuubi mode” although the strain of keeping control can weaken him in prolonged battle.

Previous record: One defeat by a mortal... villain (orc warlord Grimgor Ironhide). The mortal heroes that were supposed to stop Archaon got practically owned, although they did manage to tire him just enough for Grimgor to succeed where they failed.

Sauron:

Physical attributes: powerful shapeshifter. Previous case of fighting in the form of a giant wolf. Can wear armour but that would be of little effect against Archaon’s sword. Superhuman strength.

Mental Attributes: Inhuman entity, many centuries old. No mortal magic seems capable of affecting his mind.

Magic power: Vast magic power, capable of building a powerful fortress in record time or covering large part of a continent in darkness. However, he has relatively few powers that could be used in direct combat. He mostly relies on his mind-affecting powers to overwhelm his foes with fear and despair (mostly by his mere presence but he can also sing if needed; he is a powerful bard)

Magic items: The One Ring. Prevents him from truly dying as long as it exists. It also gives him control over the owners of any other magic rings he had helped create. Can render him invisible at will. Other powers unknown. Can be used by others but unless they have magical knowledge and superhuman willpower, they will end being controlled by the ring, rather than vice versa.

Previous record: Several battles against heroes of good, with mixed luck. Though none of the victories came without some losses among the good guys, they clearly indicate that he can be defeated by mortal (or at least elven) hand.

CONCLUSION:

I’d go with Archaon for this one. While Sauron is objectively more powerful, here he is matched against an enemy who happens to be able to counter all his best tricks, forcing him to a straight fight, where he would be outmatched. Unless Sauron decides to run from the battle, Archaon will defeat him, take the One Ring and use it to conquer both worlds. (He is one of the few people who could really control it).

(If its with the armies, it’s a clear win for Archaon. Sauron has masses of infantry and cavalry, trolls, the nine nazgul and giant elephants but Archaon’s horde has masses of infantry and cavalry, various monsters, dragons, hundreds of sorcerers and demon-possessed heavy artillery.)

[omg laser pew pew!]

Sauron is a pretty prissy maia, he was lucky Olorin wasn't allowed to use his complete power

I mean the only reason he was so strong during the Third Age was because the other races were 'dwindling'

[chauronity]

Archaon takes this.

[Goodfellow]

(If its with the armies, it’s a clear win for Archaon. Sauron has masses of infantry and cavalry, trolls, the nine nazgul and giant elephants but Archaon’s horde has masses of infantry and cavalry, various monsters, dragons, hundreds of sorcerers and demon-possessed heavy artillery.)

All male though, and succubuses are kinda..wierd. Anyway, I bet the orc is actually the most powerful person, not Archeon o.O C'mon! Green is da best, Grimnor da best!

[Gaelek_13]

Sauron is made out to be uber but truth is he got bitchslapped a fair few times...must've come out of habit from being Morgoth's lapdog for so long, heh heh

[Heartgobbler]

All male though, and succubuses are kinda..wierd. Anyway, I bet the orc is actually the most powerful person, not Archeon o.O C'mon! Green is da best, Grimnor da best!

I believe the plural is succubi.

What has someone being male or female to do with anything? (of course there are female in the army. They just don't stand out much, unless they are mages or Slaanesh champions) And I don't really like what they did to Grimgor in the new edition. I mean, c'mon, how can an orc have 7 attacks on the profile?

If you want to make it Grimgor vs Archaon, make a separate thread (I'm kind of neutral on that one. I have 2000something points of both orcs and chaos.)

[Art of Run]

Sauron has had his butt kicked 3 times (If i remember correctly).

[Goodfellow]

I believe the plural is succubi.

What has someone being male or female to do with anything? (of course there are female in the army. They just don't stand out much, unless they are mages or Slaanesh champions) And I don't really like what they did to Grimgor in the new edition. I mean, c'mon, how can an orc have 7 attacks on the profile?

If you want to make it Grimgor vs Archaon, make a separate thread (I'm kind of neutral on that one. I have 2000something points of both orcs and chaos.)

Easy, the head honcho nazgul can't be slayed bya man (and apperently that aplied atleast on orcs as well, I suppose, or no one just thought about it)

[Gaelek_13]

Easy, the head honcho nazgul can't be slayed bya man (and apperently that aplied atleast on orcs as well, I suppose, or no one just thought about it)

The prophecy relating to The Witch King was no man or beast will kill him. Period. No man or Elf or Orc...only a woman can cos the big dude's so conceited he reckons he can own a girl and ignore a Hobbit just cos he's small, n00b.

[Heartgobbler]

Oh, so that is why you referred to females.

A demon is neither man nor beast. It is a magic being, composed purely of energy and emotions that give him form and purpose (basically, demons look like creatures from nightmares exactly for that reason. They look the way people expect them to. They have no physical form in the Warp)

So, Archaon's demon-possessed sword would likely be able to kill him.

Besides, you don't understand how prophecies work. (Gaelek seems to have got it right) They don't bestow any abilities or direct people's actions (unless they conciously act to fulfill them). The prophecies simply say what is going to happen. So, the prophecy that "no man can beat the Witch King" was just a fancy and mysterious way of saying that he was going to be owned by a girl. And so it happened, not because he had some mysterious "anti-male" shield from the prophecy but because all men around were either paralysed by fear or too busy fighting someone else. If he was going to meet Archaon, the prophecy would probaly have been differently worded.

[Rice Ball]

Archaon should win this.
His basic stats are beyond human limits and hes suped up with magic items, his sword is more than likely one of the most powerful peoples on the planet. His armour is also very good, in the old rules he was pretty much unkillable by anyone with less than strenght 8 (he had a 1+ save and his armour reduced attack strength by 3, meaning if you were strength 7, he could save the wound on a 2+ dice roll and a 4+ save if he failed that 2+ one.) He basically didn't die to anything but the strongest of attacks.

[Heartgobbler]

It just so happens Sauron has some pretty strong attacks. :P

[Rice Ball]

It just so happens Sauron has some pretty strong attacks. :P

Yeah but when he was corporial his armour was destroyed with ease, i wouldn't say his melee attack power was greater than that of a old school bloodthurster either :)

[Gaelek_13]

Sauron in a physical form lost the power to regenerate wounds didn't he? He couldn't regenerate his finger after Isildur cut it off that's for sure.... Morgoth sure as hell couldn't after a while since he kept the burns on his face and the seven wounds.

Archaon could kill the Witch King imho, simply because he could laugh off the aura of fear and obliterate the guy easily. As for Sauron, I don't think there's a damn thing the big guy can do to seriously harm Archaon...at bet he can banish his horse and wound him but that's it.

[Cy]

Definately Archaon, pretty much for the reasons already mentioned. I think the bigger question is probably Grimgor or Sauron, since Grimgor izz da best.

Plus, doesn't Archaon gain magic resistance due to the mark of the gods? I forget what all the abilities are, but I do now it gives him magical power from Tzeentch and near immunity to poisons and disease from Nurgle.

[Rice Ball]

Grimgor was nothing but a plot device for Chaos not destroying the empire.

In a 1v1 match he wouldn't stand a chance against Archaon, he has already lost against Archaons second in command in personal combat, and Chaos is ruled by strength like orcs, the strongest leads.

[Cy]

Grimgor didn't quite lose to Crom- more of didn't win. The gobbos were cowards and the orc army was forced to retreat and so Grimgor was forced to leave before a victor in their 1v1 fight was decided.

But regardless of whether Grimgor is actually stronger then Archaon or just won just because matters not to the orc- all that matters is that Grimgor is the biggest, baddest, and fightyest orc alive and I like to see someone tell him otherwise and live.

[Heartgobbler]

In Crom vs Grimgor, it was a draw. It was the armies that decided that battle. Crom has lower stats than Grimgor but is a challenge specialist and has a set of extra abilities he can use in one on one battles.

Yea, Archaon does have some magic resistance. (He isn't immune to poison though. Only to disease). More importantly though, he causes terror and is immune to psychology, which effectively cancels out some 90% of Sauron's magical attack.

And Grimgor wasn't much of a plot device. Volkmar was. Mannfred had it planned brilliantly and should have conquered the Empire.

[Rice Ball]

Chaos losing was a massive piece of PIS :)

[Gaelek_13]

Grimgor was nothing but a plot device for Chaos not destroying the empire.

In a 1v1 match he wouldn't stand a chance against Archaon, he has already lost against Archaons second in command in personal combat, and Chaos is ruled by strength like orcs, the strongest leads.

Grimgor VS Crom was a draw, neither of them was wounded or anywhere near close to finishing their battle. The Orc army ran off so Grimgor was sort of forced to leave so it was an unfinishe battle Grimgor hoped to finish.

Grimgor Vs Archaon can't really be counted as a fight since he just blindsided the big fella and KO'd him...but nothing like that would've happened to previous Everchosen.

Volkmar staring down Mannfred after escaping Be'lakor was poor...I just don't like the idea of the Lord of Slyvannia marching all the way there, being pretty damn powerful and because there's one guy (who's meant to be dead) turning and running away. WTF? Mannfred is a von Carstein, why would her run from a ressurrected, incredibly weakened human?

Let's face it, it was plot no jutsu there - Mannfred would've destroyed him in a 1:1 fight.

[Heartgobbler]

Well, Manfred has lived as long as he did because he avoided the risks. And Vlad von Carstain did get killed by a mere mortal who didn't nearly match his power (but had enough resolve to go for a suicide attack and push him off the wall, impaling them both on the battlements below.) Strength is one thing but fate is another and Manfred could feel the fate stacked against him that night.

[Chatulio]

Meh if this is 2nd age Sauron then he loses since he is against a foe who can actually take the ring from him wield it well enough. 0-1st age he has a better chance since he has his full might with him and not imbued in the ring.


Sauron is a pretty prissy maia, he was lucky Olorin wasn't allowed to use his complete power

I mean the only reason he was so strong during the Third Age was because the other races were 'dwindling'

Thats not enitrely true. Olorin was never a fighter in 0-1st age, he was more of a councelor.