50 U.S. Marines (w/ machine guns) vs. Sauron's Army at Helms Deep

[Kuya]

50 U.S. Marines with machine guns and unlimited ammo. They also have 5 sniper rifles.

They must defend Helms Deep vs. the same orc army from Helms Deep.

Who ftw?

[martryn]

So do the marines have to reload, or not?

[Suzumebachi]

The marines lose. Thats way too big an army.

[Graham Aker]

thats 10,000 urukhai there right? marines loose...

[Kuya]

Well i'm just trying to see how effective a machine gun would have been in a battle like this. Would the Marines get slaughtered???

[Darklyre]

Actually, if they managed to funnel the Uruk-Hai into chokepoints, they could conceivably destroy that army. Being in a castle gives a GREAT defensive boost.
When the Welsh rebelled, back in 1295, Harlech Castle was garrisoned by only 37 defenders. They managed to hold off an entire English army that was besieging them.

[The Space Cowboy]

...Um. Quick point. Sauron's army wasn't at Helm's Deep. That was Saruman's army, which was around 10,000ish.

Give the Marines unlimited ammunition, and the orcs will be eating dirt or running away. Arrows are nasty, but MA Deuce could conceivably put down an Oliphant with a short burst, from several thousand yards.

Seeing the sky darken with arrows is one thing, but being ripped apart by something you cannot see that blows holes through the best of armors, is probably too much for Orcs. And if the Marines have tracers in the ammo, it'll look like a magic fire is striking them down where they stand.

[Khamzul]

I do not think the Orc's would run from bullets, but I do think the Marines would win given the castle.

Depends though - How great is the resistance of orc's to bullets? I would say greater than humans atleast. However, they could just spray the gate until all the orcs are dead.

Does the Orc's have the explosives from Sarumann? If so, I think they could win.

[silversnowfox]

Those were not Orcs, they were Uruk-hai. A cross between Goblins and Orcs. They are ten times stronger then an Orc, and immune to negative effects of sunlight that Orcs are bound by. Not only that, but Uruk-hai are brutal warriors. Even if the Marines had unlimited ammunition, they would be slaughtered before too long.

The truth of the matter is that this is the old argument: technology VS numbers. And in this case, numbers win. An Uruk-hai could likely take multiple bullets to the chest before falling, and they just love to tear appart their enemies.

Without superior weapons like the M82, and more men, they are prety much sword fodder.

[Pipboy]

The Uruks are somalians without Guns.... The machine gun revolutionized warfare because it made it possible for one man to kill 20 with ease as they ran over a flat bit of land. Without the tank you are left with a trench warfare because if you pop a head up it will be blown off.

The Uruks are potent, but the marines can shoot and have fuckign big guns. The Uruks aren't going to get inside that castle because they are like 10,000 ducks. Arrow aren't going to do much against full modernized body armor, only the odd headshot is going to bring one down and given the obscene range advantage....

The Marines are going to start spraying the Uruk's from a couple thousand yards. The effective range of a heavy machine gun being miles. At that point the Uruk's are going to start dying. Thats going to continue. Thats going to get worse until the uruks are breaking into the fortress and they are going to be blown apart by fire teams.

[ydraliskos]

Any other country's marines would probably take this, but US Marines would let the Uruks in Helms Deep uncontested and go fight the war on terror on Hobbiton or some equally retarded shit.

[OniTasku]

Any other country's marines would probably take this, but US Marines would let the Uruks in Helms Deep uncontested and go fight the war on terror on Hobbiton or some equally retarded shit.

:rotfl

I like your originative response.

In terms of actuality, it depends if the US Marines take up efficient and effective positions (along with the 5-snipers) to deter the uncoming horde or 10,000+ Uruk-hai. Though it's very possible since they're the insane berserkers that they are that some could manage to self-detonate themselves (as seen in the movies and written in the books) with explosive in main spots to break through the main wall. Once there is a breach in the wall the soldiers would pretty much be done for.

[ydraliskos]

Seriously tho, the fuckup threshold for the entire operation would be pretty low. Just one small error or lapse of decision for each marine would mean death, and probably loss of helms deep. With 50 vs 10.000, you can't afford to screw up once.

[Kuya]

Seriously tho, the fuckup threshold for the entire operation would be pretty low. Just one small error or lapse of decision for each marine would mean death, and probably loss of helms deep. With 50 vs 10.000, you can't afford to screw up once.

Please explain what would cause a "fuck-up". You mean, one of the Marines not holding their own on the squadron they're suppose to take out/kill, or being too slow in reacting or...? I don't see the Marines messing up too much, Marines are trained specialists, not every average Joe makes it into the Marines, you have to try-out. I don't think they would make really careless mistakes that would jeopardize their team. And even if one did, the others would pick up for the weak link.

But please answer my first question, i would like to know what would be a critical error on the Marine's part. Thanks.

[mister_napolean]

hmmm if it was 50 deltas then they could of won like that....but this is hard to decide do they have bombs and ect? if they did then us would easily win

[ydraliskos]

Please explain what would cause a "fuck-up". You mean, one of the Marines not holding their own on the squadron they're suppose to take out/kill, or being too slow in reacting or...? I don't see the Marines messing up too much, Marines are trained specialists, not every average Joe makes it into the Marines, you have to try-out. I don't think they would make really careless mistakes that would jeopardize their team. And even if one did, the others would pick up for the weak link.

But please answer my first question, i would like to know what would be a critical error on the Marine's part. Thanks.

-Not noticing the Uruk with the big bomb.
-Not see an incoming arrow (I still don't get how you think the marines protect themselves from them.
-Slip on the wet stone and fall over the palisade.
-Being hit with an arrow and dropping down while still firing the mahinegun thus killing other marines.
-Being hit with an arrow again.
-Getting impaled by the huge goddamn grappling bolts the Uruks were launching to secure their ladders.
-Panicking and trying to surrender.

Have any of those happen to the commanding officer, and the effect triples too. They're marines, not cyborgs. They 're not the average Joe, but they're not that far from it, and I think every man would crack if placed in a medieval castle sieged by ten thousand monsters.

Also, in 50 vs 10.000, you can't afford to cover for other people's mistakes, because you got your hands full of orc.

EDIT: Also, sniper rifles? Wtf, what are you gonna snipe with them anyway? orcs? at a rate of 5 per whatever rof the sniper rifles you 're talking about have, you're better off with 5 more machineguns.

[Kuya]

-Not noticing the Uruk with the big bomb.
-Not see an incoming arrow (I still don't get how you think the marines protect themselves from them.
-Slip on the wet stone and fall over the palisade.
-Being hit with an arrow and dropping down while still firing the mahinegun thus killing other marines.
-Being hit with an arrow again.
-Getting impaled by the huge goddamn grappling bolts the Uruks were launching to secure their ladders.
-Panicking and trying to surrender.

Have any of those happen to the commanding officer, and the effect triples too. They're marines, not cyborgs. They 're not the average Joe, but they're not that far from it, and I think every man would crack if placed in a medieval castle sieged by ten thousand monsters.

Also, in 50 vs 10.000, you can't afford to cover for other people's mistakes, because you got your hands full of orc.

EDIT: Also, sniper rifles? Wtf, what are you gonna snipe with them anyway? orcs? at a rate of 5 per whatever rof the sniper rifles you 're talking about have, you're better off with 5 more machineguns.

nice argument.

[Kuya]

hmmm if it was 50 deltas then they could of won like that....but this is hard to decide do they have bombs and ect? if they did then us would easily win

just top of the notch machine guns. and 5 sniper rifles. Unlimited Ammo.

[Nihonjin]

Marines would die...
50 people waver at the sight of 1000 people charging at them, 10.000 monsters is a definite pee in the pants.

[blacklusterseph004]

There needs to be a few more marines for them to have a chance. With standard kit, I guess they could take a lot of orcs with them, but they'll just be overwhelmed in the end. 50 isn't enough to defend a fort that big. Give them Col. Fatman and Little Boy with unlimited ammo...

[Donkey Show]

Please explain what would cause a "fuck-up". You mean, one of the Marines not holding their own on the squadron they're suppose to take out/kill, or being too slow in reacting or...? I don't see the Marines messing up too much, Marines are trained specialists, not every average Joe makes it into the Marines, you have to try-out. I don't think they would make really careless mistakes that would jeopardize their team. And even if one did, the others would pick up for the weak link.

But please answer my first question, i would like to know what would be a critical error on the Marine's part. Thanks.
You must be confusing the general Marine populace with the elite like the Navy Seals, Rangers, or SF. Just because the average Joe doesn't always make it into the Marines doesn't make those who make it perfect. Marines are still human and are prone to mistakes.

[ydraliskos]

Afaik all medium and higher class machineguns are either mounted, or need a stand and the marine to be lying on the floor.

[Khamzul]

Those were not Orcs, they were Uruk-hai. A cross between Goblins and Orcs. They are ten times stronger then an Orc, and immune to negative effects of sunlight that Orcs are bound by. Not only that, but Uruk-hai are brutal warriors. Even if the Marines had unlimited ammunition, they would be slaughtered before too long.

I'm sorry but there are no "Goblins" in tolkiens world, goblin was simply used as a substitue for Orc - another name for this kin. And there was never stated that they where ten times stronger. All we know is that they where: "The great soldier-Orcs that first appeared in the late Third Age; they were larger and stronger than their forebears, and could withstand the light of the Sun."
(found here: http://www.glyphweb.com/Arda/default.asp)

Aragorn (or was it Legolas?) notes that he may have combined the blood of elves and men.

"-Not noticing the Uruk with the big bomb."

You are assuming that this follows the movie. In my definition (and hopefully everone elses: The movies are non-canon - since they are only Peter Jackson's impression of the book, and also have big differences.

So, I can add to your argument that they would not need to spot a single Urukhai running like it was on a olympic stadium - but rather would have to deal with every single Urukhai being a potential carrier of such materials.

But remember that normal orc's are not neccearily canonflodder - they have physical stamina much stronger than any human (running for 3 days and nights straight is one feat).

I'm still uncertain of this battle though - considering the long range of modern weapons.

[ydraliskos]

"-Not noticing the Uruk with the big bomb."

You are assuming that this follows the movie. In my definition (and hopefully everone elses: The movies are non-canon - since they are only Peter Jackson's impression of the book, and also have big differences.

So, I can add to your argument that they would not need to spot a single Urukhai running like it was on a olympic stadium - but rather would have to deal with every single Urukhai being a potential carrier of such materials.


I was trying to give and take, you know XD Movie scenes are a nice way to demonstrate a point.

About the range, well, there would probably be a huge killing field between machinegun range up to longbow range, and some pretty heavy Uruk losses.

However, after the archers manage to get some supressing fire going on, I doubt the marines will be able to operate the machineguns with any serious efficiency, while hiding behind the palisades and trying not to get hit by thousands of arrows.

Then, while the machineguns are supressed for short periods of time
(rembember, the marines absolutely can't risk losses) you get your bombs going on and breach the walls.
After that, it's smooth sailing for the Uruks

[CrazyMoronX]

Marines take out a few thousand, but with the siege weapons, arrows, and the massive numbers, they will eventually succumb.

[Khamzul]

Orcs were originally elves. Uruk Hai are probably the result of cross breeding between orcs and humans Heavily implied, but not confirmed. More information here. (http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#OrcNature)

The making of the Uruk hai's are also somewhat clouded, more information here. (http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Urukhai) A very good site I might add.

[Rice Ball]

The Arrows will do the damage, people tend to forget about that, also they had siege weapons and ladders, they will gain an entery to the keep and overrun them in melee.

Guns will overheat too.

[Giovanni Rild]

Heavily implied, but not confirmed. More information here. (http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#OrcNature)

The making of the Uruk hai's are also somewhat clouded, more information here. (http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Urukhai) A very good site I might add.

My sources say that Orcs were magically created for war

[Goodfellow]

I don't know. Compared to the free people, the urak hai were pretty technologically advanced. They had siege technicue, gunpowder and ballistas. I think they might stand quite the chance.

[Khamzul]

My sources say that Orcs were magically created for war
"Tolkien never seems to have firmly resolved this question in his own mind, let alone on paper. While The Silmarillion as published states fairly clearly that Orcs were corrupted Elves, Unfinished Tales hints that some strains of Orcs may have been bred from the Druedain. Tolkien's latest writings on the issue (found in Texts VIII-X of the "Myths Transformed" section in Morgoth's Ring) show him considering many possible origins: corrupted Elves, corrupted Men, very minor Maiar (a small number of original Orcish leaders only), or even beasts given fragments of Morgoth's own will so they would have some measure of independence. Some combination of these origins seems most likely from the texts, though the last of them was probably rejected."

According to this he did not seem to resolve the question himself. They where certainly used by Morgoth (Melkor) but if he created them, corrupted them from other races or breeded them is yet unknown.

I do not believe he created them, since they seem more like a mockery of the elves / men than anything else. The idea was probably not his originally, so I'm going for the corrupted theory, however this will always be an assumption if the quoted information is true.


To the question at hand: I'm leaning against the Orc's more and more here.

Gun's jamming, bow's, siege weapons etc - give me the impression that the castle might fall. If so it should lead to closecombat - and here the Orc
s don't need numbers to have an advantage.

My knowledge about modern warfare is limited when it comes to firearm's though - so I guess I need to find some statics about modern firearm's range and etc before I talk any further.

[Roy]

if they dont have reloads obviously they lose




do they have grenades?

[Darklyre]

You people are nuts. No marine is stupid enough to try and hold the entire castle. With only 50 men, they'd fall back to a position with only two or three chokepoints, and set up multiple positions aimed at them. If they wanted to, they could go with the alternate strategy of having all their men at the front of the castle, and killing the Uruk-Hai from long range. By the time the Uruk-Hai actually get into arrow range (which is shorter than normal, since the Uruk-Hai are coming from the ground, and have to aim up), half of their archers would be dead. The remaining archers would have to shoot up, which means that if the marines hide behind the stone battlements, there's almost no way for the Uruk-Hai archers to actually hit the marines. The marines could simply put one hand on the trigger of the gun, and randomly fire into the crowd.

Oh, and shortbows, which Sauron's army used, aren't powerful enough to pierce modern body armor. The only type of bows that are strong enough would be crossbows.

[Brandt]

They don't call Marines "Devil Dogs" for nothing. USMC takes this one.

[Louis-954]

The Marines would be overwhelmed, go back and look at the battle of helm's deep. No way in hell 50 Marines could deal with all that, they would run like little pussy's.

[ydraliskos]

You people are nuts. No marine is stupid enough to try and hold the entire castle. With only 50 men, they'd fall back to a position with only two or three chokepoints, and set up multiple positions aimed at them. If they wanted to, they could go with the alternate strategy of having all their men at the front of the castle, and killing the Uruk-Hai from long range. By the time the Uruk-Hai actually get into arrow range (which is shorter than normal, since the Uruk-Hai are coming from the ground, and have to aim up), half of their archers would be dead. The remaining archers would have to shoot up, which means that if the marines hide behind the stone battlements, there's almost no way for the Uruk-Hai archers to actually hit the marines. The marines could simply put one hand on the trigger of the gun, and randomly fire into the crowd.

Oh, and shortbows, which Sauron's army used, aren't powerful enough to pierce modern body armor. The only type of bows that are strong enough would be crossbows.

At 100 dead orcs per second, it would still take the marines about an hour and a half of constant firing, no reloads.

So no, they wont have killed "all the archers" anytime soon, and body armor just covers the body.

[dummy plug]

im on the marines' side...damn, dey just gotta throw grenades and deyl kill 30s at once...lock the Keep and keep on firing unlimited ammos...noone CAN beat dat...unlimited ammo means unlimited fire support...how cn d orcs kill em if the marines shoot them at 300yards? hahaha...marines win ofcourse...lol

[dummy plug]

also, body armor of the orcs arent bullet proof...heck, arrows penetrate em...

[Khamzul]

^Double posts won't make you popular (posting two individual posts) with short (less than 24 hours) gaps. Use the [EDIT] next time :)

Well, I don't think the Marines got grenades - they got machieguns with unlimited ammo and 5 sniper rifles. But for that matter they don't got armor either. Are we talking marines with standard gear or just with normal clothes and machineguns? Or just bodyarmor without additional weapons (grenades, flashbangs etc) equipped?

[martryn]

I'm going to go with marines. If the marines don't have to stop to reload... I mean, a machine gun is more accurate and has a greater range than a bow. With the marines also have crenellations to use for cover, and having the high ground to start, I'll say they kill a shit load of them while they're hooting and hollaring right at the beginning, and then all the other uraks or whatever have to climb over the increasing pile of dead that was once their allies. Even if one of them got through with an explosive, one or two marines could easily plug that hole, which would be a death trap for any urak trying to pass through, further clogging up the way inside the keep.

Worst comes to worst and the marines fall back to the... whatever it was... and hold that area. Personally, though, I don't see a single urak making it withing touching distance of the wall. All the marines have to do is open fire and not relent. With limitless ammo...

[Kuya]

Finally, people are starting to understand me and take the Marine's side. I mean, the ratio for a victory for the Marines would be 1 Marine kills 200 Uruk-Hai. And with unlimited ammo, yea it would be hard but not impossible.

Also, the marines are in their regular gear/armour that they would use if they were in war. And yes that includes helmets.

And to whoever it was that said they were ... Marines are NOT pussy's.

[Rice Ball]

America! Fuck Yeah!

Overheating guns = loose.

[ydraliskos]

Finally, people are starting to understand me and take the Marine's side. I mean, the ratio for a victory for the Marines would be 1 Marine kills 200 Uruk-Hai. And with unlimited ammo, yea it would be hard but not impossible.

Also, the marines are in their regular gear/armour that they would use if they were in war. And yes that includes helmets.

And to whoever it was that said they were ... Marines are NOT pussy's.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's highly unlikely. I'd give it 3/10 to the marines 7/10 orcs. Too many things can go wrong for the marines.

[Khamzul]

Also, the marines are in their regular gear/armour that they would use if they were in war. And yes that includes helmets.
- But not grenades?
And does unlimited ammo mean no reload required?

Found some info on the battle. Note that this is Wikipedia, but I think it's interesting none the less:
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4647/waroftheringbattleohhornburgfr0.jpg
If someone see any flaws, please point them out. This could hopefully give us a better picture of sarumans army.

[Kuya]

Also, the marines are in their regular gear/armour that they would use if they were in war. And yes that includes helmets.
- But not grenades?
And does unlimited ammo mean no reload required?

Found some info on the battle. Note that this is Wikipedia, but I think it's interesting none the less:

If someone see any flaws, please point them out. This could hopefully give us a better picture of sarumans army.

No grenades.
No reload.

[dummy plug]

oops sori i ddnt know it was double postin...i thought dat a double post is repeatin the same post...sowi

[|eMoCandY|]

wtf..... if the marines call for reinforcements (if they can) they can still win..... how can uruk-hai warriors kill comanches and f22 raptors.....

think about it

it WILL SAVE their LIVES!!!(m arines)

[Suzumebachi]

I mean, the ratio for a victory for the Marines would be 1 Marine kills 200 Uruk-Hai.

You are on thin ice mister.

[Giovanni Rild]

If the Marines had Miniguns( A type of Machine gun) they win with ease.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun

[Suzumebachi]

^Ease? Fuck no.

[escamoh]

Any other country's marines would probably take this, but US Marines would let the Uruks in Helms Deep uncontested and go fight the war on terror on Hobbiton or some equally retarded shit.
You win this thread :lmao

But seriously, there's a lot of Uruk's but with the machine guns the Marines might take this. But it could go either way imo.

[dummy plug]

but its really clear the marines win...unlimited ammo? who can beat dat using swords and shields and crossbows? they outranged the orcs...no orcs can go at dem and hack em at pointblank coz bullets will rip their armors...lol

[Suzumebachi]

^ I like your rep bar. It matches.

Really now....unlimited ammo = win?

[escamoh]

Ummm...about how many Marines are there?

[Jakotsu06]

Way to many for the marines and the urukhai can live threw major wounds and still fight (Arms being cut off,spear threw the chest ect.) Marines die the moments they have to change out their clips or the crossbows are in range.

[Kakashi Killer]

Any other country's marines would probably take this, but US Marines would let the Uruks in Helms Deep uncontested and go fight the war on terror on Hobbiton or some equally retarded shit.

LOL now thats original but seriously unless the marines were retarded blind and had no fingers they would kick the shit out the Uruks. Then they would fight the war on terror in Hobbiton. Hobbits would win

Us marines
1


Hobbits

One hundred grapes and fifty twigs atached to them