Free will vs Fate

[Kimi Sama]

I've got severa friends who believe in Fate to some extent(capital F added for random extra personification), but I myself do not.

What do you guys think? Does everyone have an inescapable fate assigned to them, or is the future what we make it?

[Cosmo_Rainy]

i don't really believe in fate

[Omote Renge]

Ooh jeez tough question. I like to think I'm in control of everything but I don't really know. I like to blame anything bad that happens to me on fate, in a weird way, it makes me feel better.

But really I think everyone has the choice of what they want their life to be like. I mean people can grow up in the worst environment and if they want to get out of it, they can. It's not like Xperson's parents are alcoholics so Xperson is destined to be an alcoholic too.

[Rurouni]

My philosophy is: Free will determines your fate. Meaning, everything you do can determine what will happen to you in the future.

[Kiriyama]

i really dont like to believe that my life is already ruled out for me, except for a few wee things!

[RaitoRyuukashin]

Yea most of my friends believe in fate also....just so happens i have some stupid friends.

I do not believe anything is out of our control. If were to believe in predestination, what reasons would we have for living.

[Jackal Iscariot]

some things that happen to me are like...just meant to happen...
so i guess i believed in fate, but at the same time i dont.
i wanna choose how my life is gonna end, i want to have control over myself...
what i do is what i what i want, and the things that happen, happen after my own decions.

i voted for I'm not sure

[Yukimura]

There's no solid support to prove either. Cuz I mean....I can run outside right now out of free will and kill everyone, but that might just be what fate destined me to do, right? So my suggestion is to not think too much about it. Whatever you're going to do, you're going to do it anyway.

[KuroTenshi]

I believe that if there is indeed a fate for everyone, then it is something that can be known about in advance through means of mystic operations. If this fate is known then it gives the individual a chance to change his or her fate. But then was it their fate to have changed what they thought would have been their fate?

[Cosmo_Rainy]

if fate is indeed true.....
there is no need of brain or feeling
since everything will be on track there is no such thing as
if i do this......... will that happen?
if i don't do this will that still happen?

[Requiem for the light]

My current religious beliefs cause me to believe in free will.

[Pelleman]

I do not belive in fate because of 2 simple reasons, one is that it cannot be proved or denied since the whole concept is in abit of a fussy area, and the second one is that you do not have a free will, or a life of your own, your fate, or destiny, is changed and created by people with greater power and influence then yourself, wich themselfes are rules and restricted by other beings of greater influence, and of random events created by accident or choise.
This does however not make life pointless as some might find it, you just have to take a step back and relax, and learn how to enjoy the circus :)

[ramp3]

I do believe in fate. Some past experiences proved me that it rules over us all.
It was just something above coincidence rates, if it were 1 or 2 factor together, it was okay, but it were 7 factors that happened in one minute, its just somethin that you pass you life without if not fate.

[linkrulesx10]

i believe in both fate gives us our cituations and our free will determines what we do, and out choice will create another choice or force us to choose something else or limit our or expend our choices and so on and so forth.

[Smitty]

It was free will that made me post here right?...

How do we know our 'free will' is not simply in fates design? How do we all not know our lives have been planned out already?

Our 'free will' is something that is decided by our morals and decisive ability, but fate is what determines the events that lead us to 'discover' our own morals and personality.

Incase you cant guess, I choose fate ;)

[Pelleman]

well if it was your free will that made you post that, then its a sort of proof that free will does not exist, if this board had been empty, or spammed by less serious people, do you think that you would still have replied? i dont tihnk you would have, you replied because you were affected by this topic, it took a grasp of your interest , and if we are controlled by our insticts, such as interests and emotions, then life becomes pretty obvious, we all follow one thing, and to stake out a road, or to create a fate/destiny from that simple minded path is not such a hard thing to do.
the question would then be, who would give ous our destiny? a devine being? or is fate created by our own actions, we choose to live by our instincts, and so we choose to live life after a certain pattern, wich contains a clear goal, and a destuny that can only be changed by someone with a stronger belif if thier own destiny, or an accident?

[laorquidia]

I voted for fate... Although sometimes I change my mind and think it's free will. It's best not to even think about it and just live your life so you'll be happy.

[LukeNukeM]

Im voting for free will.. because i want to be in charge of my own life..

[miso_ramen]

nations who are more religious tend to believe more in the fate. it is seen in the language (they use pasive tense more) . but I say it depends on the individual...
I don't believe in fate. We create our own future. There aren't any supernatural forces which would have influence on our fate. People who believe the opposite are just too lazy to do something with their lives and tend to blame other people for their failures.

[TrendyNinja]

Lol did you just see X or something?Of course free will is what the individual has.If we did not have free will and did not do what we wanted why actually do anything.Concentrate in more important things in your life instead of questions like these.

[miso_ramen]

X is great anime! ;)
... but people need to ask themselves about such things... 'cause there are things worth of thinking about and changing something about them...
I'd dare to say that people don't think enough... O.o
:D

[Haik]

You have a free will to get there how you want, but you'll eventually get there where your suposed to be or do. Everyone has a fate!

[[GeNMa]]

I believe that you have a destiny/Fate but your freewill can change it, thus your destiny/Fate isn't predicted earlier in life.
In other words I believe in fate and free will.

[Ronin_Musashi]

Neither in my opinion. But then again I'm weird that way :darn; I don't believe in time :laugh. But let me explain. I think that time, like color and other things we see/experience, is a process of our brain because we cannot experience all of reality at once; so it seperates experiences into different categories that are viewed as taking place in an order or sequence. Therefor, cause and effect, past, present, and future are all the same...thing..."experience" I'll call it. That it is all self contained. So in that sense, it's sort of like fate. But I also believe that while whatever is going to happen will happen, it is all happening literaly at once, so there is no sort of "predestination" or "fate". These "experiences" also include things like knowledge and thought processes. But, you might wonder, how could someone know everything they will ever know, and yet still give the appearance of learning? Well, I answer that by categorizing knowledge into that which we already know, that which we "will" know (it's very difficult to describe this in non-time related terms, so instead of going on and on, I will shorten it by doing this), and that which we will never know of. The things that we will know of can be called "the future", while the things we know of can be "past" and "present"; and then obviously there are things that we never know about.
I came to this conclusion when I realized that time could not have had a beginning, for there would be nothing before it, and something cannot spring from nothing. Also, it can not be infinitly long, or we would never get to where we are now.

I hope I made sense... :blink

[B32]

I believe in both. To keep it short i'll just say, there are times in life when you can make choices and there times in life that are inevitable.

[TrendyNinja]

I have to disagree with most people here.How do you defien fate?Something that is already decided?By who?Don;t you control your own life?Don;t you make your own choices?

If you do not then what is the reason for living.Leave it all to fate....
or it is that you have problems with your lives and say it was decided like that I was destined to be here.Just stand up and change all that ...believe me you can do whatever you want..if you want it badly.
With my current life I feel dissapointed.I was depressed......for 6 months until yesterday.Yesterday I stood up faced my life up to now and decided to change it.I have to face my parents ....... my wallet ....my own skills and stamina...but I am determined to do it or die trying.
Did I not decide to do it?Or was I destined to wake up one morning and tkae that decision?

[Legato]

I guess that in the end, you can say that it is your destiny to have the live you're having. But I don't believe in it.
Where does a fate come from? How is it determined, and when?
I say that there is no fate. You do have certain circumstances that will cause problems (for instance, a slave will never be a king), but those are caused by history, past choises etc. The circumstances in which you grow up are determined by coincidence, not by fate.
The way you deal with those circumstances are a matter of your own free will and capability. I'm not saying that you can do whatever you want badly, but I am saying that you can determine your own future.

[hyuganeji]

the way i think of it is that... what actions we take or what we do reflects our fate....its kinda like our past explains our future

im not making any sense am i?

[momodesu]

Well, I believe that fate does exist, but if you actually bother to make the effort to change it, whatever it is, then your free will will overpower your fate. Does that make sense?

[KiraNaruto]

So what if i after reading all the responses just sit there forever until i die?
i.. chose to do that?
then thats fate?
whatever you do changes another person and it goes on forever...
i tend to think thats fate... so its freewill that causes fate... fate can be changed by freewill
freewill cant be changed by fate therefore i am becoming abit lost
It is my fate to believe in freewill? :S
It is my fate to believe in fate?
It is my freewill to believe in fate?
it is my freewill to believe in freewill?
It is freewill that makes fate?
It is fate that determines your freewill?
.................................................. ....... :blink
okai.. wat the hell... :(

[haearnbran]

Fate is real, but fate doesn't prevent one from doing anything. One can do whatever he or she wants but whatever the conclusion, it was fate that it should happen that way.

[Dagda_Mor]

Fate is real in the sense that, if one knew all the variables, one could see that there is only one way that things can happen. This would be omniscience. And even if you were omniscient you wouldn't be able to change your fate. See, for my definition of fate there is still free will. There is technically only one possible thing that you will do, but it will be by choice. I liked how the Matrix Reloaded addressed the question; Neo asked the Oracle how there can be free will, if she knows the choices he will make; her response is that already made the choice. Who you are determines what your choice will be.

Any of that make sense?

[Lilly_haku]

some things that happen to me are like...just meant to happen...
so i guess i believed in fate, but at the same time i dont.
i wanna choose how my life is gonna end, i want to have control over myself...
what i do is what i what i want, and the things that happen, happen after my own decions.

i voted for I'm not sure

Well I chose fate but really I'm not sure either, but you are absulutly right :wink

[Eeky]

I believe in free will, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to do this!
RJKGJSWRJGLAGBSBGSLG BA AAAIIEEEEE

-Kris

[xxShikamaruxx]

I believe in Fate/Destiny

[Gunshin]

I believe in both.

Everyone has a destiny or fate. I believe we have the free will to move towards it, against it, or to move not at all. If you reach that destiny you will know because you will be satisfied. However, if you miss it, then you will be miserable, locked away in your house wishing you could turn back time.

[Kevinthewiseone]

I guess i belive we have both free will and destiny but i also belive that we can have influnce on or destiny using our free will

ok thats my thought confusing huh

[CT_Fan]

i believe in both fate gives us our cituations and our free will determines what we do, and out choice will create another choice or force us to choose something else or limit our or expend our choices and so on and so forth.
Same here it's the road of life and you can go left, right, or straight but once you do it opens up the rest of the road but closes off the possibility of going right if you went left or straight. Hope that makes sense

[SuperStylin]

free will. if you don't believe me watch i think episode 56 or 57 :)

a world with no free will leaves little room fro anything else.

[Omar]

yes you choose what happens but sometimes you cant really stop things from happening XD

[onlyelliot]

Free will is an illusion created by our perception in time.
Time is an illusion created by our imperfection and inability to grasp the whole of existence.

Both of these things are just a result of our perceptions. Because we are imperfect and cannot percieve everything there is to know all at once, we are limited to an imperfect perception of the workings of the universe. Just because we cannot be perect, however doesnt not meen that we are without the ability to gain insight into the perfect. Even if we only have a partial view of the perfect whole, we still are looking at the perfect whole. Through the advancement of science we are able to observe that every action which we are capable of producing has a reaction. Cause and effect. Once this truth is observed, it is not an unreasonable conjecture to state that every action is caused by and action before it. Following this logic, we can state that everything we do as humans, which we percieve as free will, is caused by a series of other actions. Thus everything that will happen in the future was caused by something in our percieved past. This sugests that everything that will happen has already been determined.

however...

since we are imperfect, we can never truly percieve fate. We see things as a result of our will, not as a predestined order. Despite this, our actions still result from previous influences.
I hate the word fate because it makes it sound too mystical, when in fact it is a very justifiable logical deduction. The debate between free will and fate is not something that we as individuals should get hung up over because no matter how much our futures may already be determined, we will never be able to percieve those futures with certainty.

Oh, also, if we were perfect/had perfect knowledge of the world, then our existence in reality as we know it would not be possible, because all actions and reactions would become one. No perfecting entity would interact with our reality, because that interaction would prove that entity's imperfection.

So, yes we have choose what we do and have free will, but only because we are incapable of comprehending fate.
Free will is real to us.

[ubernoob]

well heres my take on the question. every one has free will. free will is the ability to make a choice under w/o anything else mattering. but everyone is fated with the choices that are presented to them. not everyone gets the choice to go to college so they are limted in that respect by fate due to not having the choice. so in other words you can choose whatever you want but what choices you are presented with is either unknown and random or fate

[Tine]

I think free will and fate comes hand in hand. There are something that we can't control like our houses being hit by tornado or tsunami but there are something that wecan control like our career, how we live etc...

[Hakuzo]

in my opinion fate is what u have no control over and destiny is the path u make w/ ur free will. long hard story for me to explian y i feel that way.

[Unamed Ninja]

I believe in fate. Your ability to think on your own does not change your intended path through life. It can alter your views on things, but ultimately you take the path that was intended for you to take. You cannot change your fate, as ultimately everyone dies. You could feel as though you are not able to reach a certain level of acceptance in society or achieve your goals. But if you work for it, then it will drive you along that path. If you were not intended to achieve those goals, or reach that level of acceptance, then thats the way it is.

That is just what I believe anyway...

[Inuyashamish]

this sounds like my english class with Romeo and Juliet... free will

[narutocousin]

Free will. Fate isn't real. It just something made up to justify the paths we take in life.

[Zatoichi inactive]

Think, wouldnt you have to know what was going to happen before you could happen? Even if what happens isn't planned, we could not assume that it was or wasn't without knowing what was supposed to happen. But really, if a person did know what would happen, knowing that would change it, creating an endless loop of changes in life.

[CrazyMoronX]

Fate/Destiny, and Free Will are both real of course. Here's a Christian explination for all the hetahens :smile-big :

God has a plan for everyone, and that's basically what fate or destiny is. However, he doesn't control what we do, we have free will and make our own choices and do whatever we want. God puts things in our paths that direct us toward our destiny, but it's up to us to follow that path, or go a different route. Life is a long long list of choices, God doesn't make them for us, he sets them up to an extent, and we choose whatever the heck we want to.

Also, just because God knows what will happen, doesn't mean he's making it happen. The argument "Well if God knows what happens then we don't have free will" is pretty pointless. Just because the future is known to one, doesn't mean he is making it happen.

[thewinterknight]

I believe in both fate and free will. Know why? Sometimes we get very lucky, such as winning the lottery or not getting any scratches on your car in an accident. Free will also is proven by Adam and Eve's mistake in taking the apple. Sure the sanke tempted them but they had a CHOICE. Angels don't, in fact angels don't have an ounce of free will, other than Lucifer, but look where his rebellion got him :P. So it all depends in which area of life you look at, your choices or your actions. Did you ever understand that long post? LOL

[BobGuy]

I believe it's a mixture of both, you choose an option, but the things that that choice causes is already predetermined, but then you have to wonder about choice. Do you really have a complete free will for choosing? Everyone is biased in a decision, if a little, or a lot, otherwise you'd never pick anything. If you're biased toward a decision, then you don't have free will, but, you can think about it, this really throws people off and confuses me.

About the whole god knows what's gonna happen thing. It does make sense, if he knows what's gonna happen, then it's pretty much gonna happen then right? If it didn't then god didn't know right? So if god knows what's gonna happen, then why do the judgement thing? Wierd, but if he knows what's gonna happen, then how's there free will? Just because god isn't making it happen doesn't mean it's not gonna happen. I dunno if you explained it right cause uh... sure didn't make much sense... I dunno why a large group of people would cling to that when it makes little sense (to me anyway)

I chose that I'm not sure, cause uh... you know... I'm not all that sure.

[Godaime]

This is a very very good question, and even religions are split down the middle on the answer. Being a christian i've seen many debates about free will vs predestination,and both have strong points. So overall i;d have to say i believe in free will, BUT i think we all have a few plans for us drawn out, and we have to make choices to determine which path our life actually follows.

[Konata Izumi]

There are to many uncertain factors in life for everyone having a destined fate i belive, still some things that happen may have been fate.

Also;Does cavemen have free will?
All they do is trying to survive, but they are free in a way that they arent bound by society like most people are today. Are they free or do they have a fate?

My point is that i dont belive in fate to much,but i dont belive we have entirely free will either. We must make a living in life, therefor we must go to school and get a job. This is something we all are more or less forced to go trough in life, we cant choose it away.

im probly not making much sense here,but that is my opinion anyway. :D

[Kimi Sama]

Always nice to see one of my old threads progressing nicely!

Question; do those of you who voted for Fate/Destiny being real believe in a higher power? Just wondering since one of my friends believes in Fate but not in any gods etc. Which puzzles me

[dumb_dookie]

i believe in both...as in, one leads to the other.

first off, karma...its the belief (and truth) that one's actions today will lead to tomorrow's consequences/outcomes. doing something on free will usually leads to 'fate'.

my parents and WHOLE FAMILY (aunts, uncles, etc.) are STRONG believers of fate/destiny. so maybe it's passed on down that way?..lol.. :-P

[GSurge]

I think that if you can ask yourself this question, then you have already figured out the answer. However, I believe in coincidence. Some things just happen that way. You can't haphazardly label things as "fate" though. The universe is just not that simple.

[Jin]

I myself think everything happens for a reason. What that reason is we may not know right away. But we will understand later. I also belive we have free will. We choose what we do. But what we choose is what we become. Everything that has happen to you. Has made you who you are. And will make you who you become.

[OrphanBoy]

in general, fate is an outcome to a situation which we cannot avoid by any means. meaning, no matter what we try, we'll end up with the same, predefined result. and since fate (destiny is just a synonym) is predetermined, it's not something that comes after a bunch of choices we make. our choices have no influence over fate which is eventual and inevitable.

but then again, there are some people who are defining fate as simply an outcome of your choices. this also makes sense, and this way, you can logically believe in both.

finally, i can broaden the concept and say that it's everyone's fate to die some day. that's something predetermined, right? can anyone say that they won't die, ever? well, if you look at it that way, then that's everyone's fate which will come true for each of us, and no matter how differently we choose to live our lives, that fate will occur for all of us.

[metaphysicool]

I did not answer the poll because i believe in neither fate nor free will. Fate implies to me that there is a mono or at least polytheistic for of superior being, which I do not believe in. If anything, I am a pantheist (that is to say, all is God.) I believe in straightforward karma. What you do is what you get, for the most part. HOWEVER, if one is to believe in such a philosophy one must throw out the concept of free will completely, because of the fact that karma created you. It's plausible that being in existence, one comes in with free will, but if one is thrown into a very powerful river, one has no choice but to follow it's path. I don't believe in any form of free will. I think we are all spiritually and biologically determined. Not fate, per sé. There also comes into play, however, the definite illusion of free will. <i>I</i> decided to post this. No one made that decision for me. Ah, but I posted here because I am going to school for philosophy because I read a lot about it in highschool because I heard about these ideas from various people because they learned about it, etc. But I digress, what I meant o say here is that Immanuel Kant had a similar problem with this. In his postulate, he declared that while free will does not exist, we have the illusion thereof, and thus we must live like it does exist, not leaving our existence to "fate." Otherwise human progress will cease, and in the worst case scenario humanity will end due to the moral reprucusions of the matter.

I believe that the universe only seems chaotic because one cannot see the mass of it.

[niceguy645]

I belive in free will, since I dislike to idea of not being in control of my life. To some extent I belive in fate and that if you are meant for success it is determined at birth. The way I see it, you try to belive what is most benfical to you, if your fate is to fail you fight it, if your destiny is to be happy then sit back and relax.

[sojiki-Heart less]

My philosophy is: Free will determines your fate. Meaning, everything you do can determine what will happen to you in the future.

you took the words righ tout of me D: thats soooo true..
Fate is what u make.. of it.. or something like that ...
its a quote from termnator movies... :D t2 :D

[dreamshiki]

To put it short and bluntly, I believe in fate and predestination. However, it's all far beyond our comprehension, as we really have no idea what our fate is to be, until it's already happened. Fate is set, we're just working our way towards it. When we try to "fight against" it, we're just playing into it's hands. There's no real escaping it. =P

The post above states it well. =P

[sojiki-Heart less]

for that you get a rep .. thxs.. any way .. yes fate is what u make of it...
everything dreamshiki said is uber true

[ghettoFOBulous]

Mark me down for free will. I think the ramifications of fate are very serious. Fate means that we have no control over what happens to us cause it was "destined" to happen. This removes responsibility for our actions.

Example: I killed a kid cause I was a drunk driver.

Free will says I'm responsible.
Fate says I can't be held accountable cause I was destined to drive drunk and kill him.

[dreamshiki]

Mark me down for free will. I think the ramifications of fate are very serious. Fate means that we have no control over what happens to us cause it was "destined" to happen. This removes responsibility for our actions.

Example: I killed a kid cause I was a drunk driver.

Free will says I'm responsible.
Fate says I can't be held accountable cause I was destined to drive drunk and kill him.

That doesn't quite work. In respect to the example, when you killed the kid by being drunk while driving, your fate was caused by your choice to drive drunk. It was indeed going to happen, and you were indeed going to drink. That doesn't hold you any less responsible though, you're every bit guilty of the killing.

Lemme summerize that. If fate (I'm not the biggest fan of this word, as there are better ways of putting it) says that you were going to kill a kid through drunk driving, it was definently going to happen. However, this predestined fate did not affect your "free will", or choice at all, since you didn't antisipate that your actions would play into the death of the kid.

The hard part about this was, no matter what, if you were destined to drive drunk and kill the kid, then you still must be held responsible, even if it was predestined. Fate was somewhat responsible, but it's unfortinate that your path of fate was that. Now lets say that you somehow ended up differently, and didn't drive home drunk, and didn't kill the kid. Well, then your fate never was to kill them. But your choice not to drink was still your fate.

It's a hard concept to grasp, but it's sometimes better not to think much of it. People who blame all their failures on fate are only kidding themselves. As far as we're concerned, none of us can know what our fate or predestination is. We can only predict based on probability. Therefore, this lack of knowledge makes our choices are still as free as can be, though they will definently play into what we're predestined to do.

I think I repeated myself a lot back there. Really, if this is still causing anyone to lose sleep, just take my advise and don't think too hard about it. Really. =P

[niceguy645]

Fate is an expectation

Free will is an aspect we all share, since we try and we work to work toward a goal we desire. We expect to achive it, thus creating the sense of predestination or fate.

Fate is the product of free will and ability. We must try in order to achive a desirable outcome. So, instead of thinking a person can only follow one inescapable flow, this "river of life" divides and splits into many. There are multiple outcomes for a persons actions, since the ones around you also have a fate or destiny that intermingle with your own. All at once this "fate" that people desire will blend and meld, this manefestation is called death.

We all share this fate and there is no way to escape.

[ghettoFOBulous]

That doesn't quite work. In respect to the example, when you killed the kid by being drunk while driving, your fate was caused by your choice to drive drunk. It was indeed going to happen, and you were indeed going to drink. That doesn't hold you any less responsible though, you're every bit guilty of the killing.



I read your post over a few times and I think you may confused fate with consequence. If I jump off a 10 story building, you can say I sealed my fate, but I would call it a consequence for doing something stupid. With consequence you must have an action to instigate it, and if that action is a product of free will then you can find responsibility.

If moments of fate were governing that example, then why not have both parties responisible? It would not happen if I wasn't driving drunk, and it would not happen if the kid was at home.

I had the choice to drive drunk, take that particular route home, go at that speed so the timing would allow me to hit the kid. The kid probably had as many variables to choose from as well. But they all aligned and the accident happened. Was it beyond my control? Was I a prisoner of fate at any moment in time? There may be a point of no return, such as the guy who jumps from the plane and has no alternate direction but down, but all the decisions that lead up to it say I was responsible. Hence I think free will.

[LordStronghold]

Believe it! Every thing is up to you! [ or up to your leader/Government ]

[styoshi]

the answer has to be both!

but i posted this link in another thread ... maybe its worth reading here too. ..
http://www.hawking.org.uk/pdf/dice.pdf

[Kaioshin]

Ok buckle in kids It's going to be one hell of a ride. Since this is the Philosophical... I'm going to get philosophical on you.

Free Will vs. Fate (Determinism)

Well technically speaking the answer only matters in one scenario so basically go ahead and think what you want. Either you have the free will or your deterministic (Fate bound) in your ways.

DUALISM: The seperation of the body and mind.

This leads to the question of Freedom of the will (Free will)

Free Will only matter if we seem to be looking at it from an ethical point of view. say "I did X and X is wrong. I could have done Y and Y is right. Therefore, Since I did X I can be held responsible for my actions" It matter because you can choose what to do. How is this related to Dualism? Well...

DUALISM AND DETERMINISM:

Now, Determinism is the whole Fate thing. There is a correlation between mental and physical events and no matter what you are determinately caused to act and do certain things no matter what. However this leads to Dualism and Free Wills way out. Free Wills way out is that if there is no one-to-one correlation between the mind and body and we are truly Dualistic in that way then the action of the Will is "Free" of physical determination. You can intervene in the physical chain of causes and choose freely how to act and that's why you are responsible for your actions.

Since I explained Determinism shortly in the previous paragraph I'll move on.

DILEMMA OF DETERMINISM:

The dilemma determinism brings up is that either there is determinism, hence we can't be held responsible for our actions or there is no determinism and yet we STILL can't be held responsible for our actions. is there is no determinism then we don't DETERMINATELY CAUSE anything to happen and is there is determinism WE don't determinately cause anything to happen. What this means is that in the former we don't cause our actions but, the "just happen", so we can't be held responsible and in the latter we, as deterministically bound, don't make the decision to commit the act as it was already going to happen no matter what and so we can't be held responsible.
So if you do believe in Fate then we can't hold anyone responsible for anything and even with Dualism if "free will" exist then determinism's dilemma arises and we again can't hold aybody responsible.

HOWEVER:

There is only 2 things that seem to explain and help free will. Free Will being not bound by deterministic physical laws (I.E. True Dualism's Seperation of the body and mind) and a Compatibilist theory which would state that the will itself is determined all the while providing a different explanation of responsibility on individuals.

When it comes down to it, it really is up to opinion and that's why I believe in Free Will.

[chye8]

Fate is fate...free will is a part of fate.

[Asmodeus]

Fate is a crutch weak people use to avoid thinking about and trying to shape their lives. Some things may happen to you, but your life is deteremined by the choices you make not by some predetermined destiny.

[onlinedevil]

You know... Those who don't believe in fate are just people running from the truths. Trying to appear to be free in all ways. But the truth is that there is destiny no matter what. The question is what exactly IS destiny! The questions isnt whether there is free will or there isnt, it's what's destiny! If you read one of my essays that I posted long ago, it explains that God takes control yet lets people have little freedom. This is just like humans themselves towards animals or towards their own creations. If humans made robots and such, would humans allow them to run free? To have their own will? Why not? Because they don't want their own system to be destroyed. They dont want their life to be destroyed. So what cant this apply to destiny/God? It's what's controlling humans that makes humans, humans.
For me, if I was to give an answer to that, I would say 'YES'. Destiny DOES exist, but in other ways, destiny is not total. Destiny can be broken AND will be broken. I'll be the first to break it!

[The 21st Hokage]

I believe it's like this 25% Fate 75% Free Will alhough you can become someone great if you try. You do have the free will to get yourself into trouble before that ever takes place. bad anology but what the hey it works.

[onlinedevil]

You know... Those who don't believe in fate are just people running from the truths. Trying to appear to be free in all ways. But the truth is that there is destiny no matter what. The question is what exactly IS destiny! The questions isnt whether there is free will or there isnt, it's what's destiny! If you read one of my essays that I posted long ago, it explains that God takes control yet lets people have little freedom. This is just like humans themselves towards animals or towards their own creations. If humans made robots and such, would humans allow them to run free? To have their own will? Why not? Because they don't want their own system to be destroyed. They dont want their life to be destroyed. So what cant this apply to destiny/God? It's what's controlling humans that makes humans, humans.
For me, if I was to give an answer to that, I would say 'YES'. Destiny DOES exist, but in other ways, destiny is not total. Destiny can be broken AND will be broken. I'll be the first to break it!

Read this! I didnt type (and thought of) all that to be ignored!

[stomponfrogs]

I refuse to believe that my actions are predestined. I can do whatever I want, and even if I can't, I would like to keep thinking that I can.

[General Shino]

theres free will, but we all have our destiny, how we do our fate and destiny varies, we choose all our sub topics, but god plays his cards the way he meant to.

[xiali]

To some extent, there are things in your life that you can't control. You cannot control where you were born, to whom you were born to, and when you were born. That's obvious, heh. So, you are destined to never meet some people or never have certain experiences. It may turn out that you never meet the love of your life or reach your goals. That might be fate. But, free will also contributes to your fate. If you choose to just sit on your ass and never get out, then you seal your fate. Nothing exciting will happen if you just let your life slip away. It's up to you to take risks.

[Itachi_Gaiden]

The idea of people having destined things happen to them feels like it is more applyable to religous beleifs; but at the same time share aplicable grounds in scientific theory. This requires delving into the human mind. The human mind is a very complex thing and the idea of Fate may help to simplify the cause or reason for things happening to leave out any self defeating cycles of thought that would get someone no were. For examle: Hypathetical: My friend was hit by a car and died. I go into a deep depression as my mind trys to comptenplate what has happened and the changes in my life this caused. Beleiving that it was my friends fate to be hit by a car and be with god in heaven would help comfort me and add closure to the accident.

[Dark_Wolf]

Read this! I didnt type (and thought of) all that to be ignored!



1. Fate is something where you know what's going to happen, right? We all know one thing that been pre-destined for us. Death. Destiny could be the same as Fate, and it probably is.
2. Tell me, do you know how your life is going to work out? Do you? Do you know everything single little thing that has been "pre-destined" for you? Of course not. We have no idea of how every minute of our life will be - say for example, you were definitely thinking about a certain career in something, and then you suddenly change your mind. Fate? You cannot know what Fate is, there is no such thing as fate, because life is constantly changing for us.


Yeah, I'm done. Feel like I needed to make a few points...but then I realised that your beliefs weren't as bad as I thought they were when they got to the bottom of the quote.

[Hyuuga-Sama]

I have read through the thread and am impressed with everyone's point of view. As for mine, well...

There is no clear distinction between Fate and Free-will simply because it is irrelevant. I personally like to think about it as this: Fate is the guide,Free-will is the tool. You can do whatever you want,but everyone is still going somewhere right? How you choose to get there is where free-will comes along. Fate is an answer given to you. Free-will is your own analysis.

"Those who follow destiny blindly,do not see the light of hope."

[General Shino]

Its Free Will/Fate Vs Self

You believe control your every actions..... but there is always a force pulling on you... when you want to eat and your not hungry... doesnt your body agree with you?.... How would that help your body..... each person consists of 2 people.... Him/her and Self....I am a slave to self no longer....

[Merlin]

I personally think I decide what I am going to eat, what I do between meals is pretty much up to everyone else, except my dog, he is way too lazy to even decide what to eat

[ChibiHannes]

I believe in free will, but whatever you are doing it was meant to be that way... if you choose yes, yes is you fate and if you choose no in the same situation, no is your fate. Hard to explain >_<

[Sir Phoenix]

I believe that life is a combonation of both free will and fate. I think that we are all on some cosmic divine path, but that the divine path is being forged by us doing our own "seperate thing." I believe the term 'divine comedy' is the reference to the fact that despite our best efforts to be ourselves, to become whatever we want to be and do what we want to do, we are just pushing ourselves faster and faster to our own day with destiny.

[hachi chan]

Clearly its both! Fate brings you to the main points in ur life or others lives and from there on you have to decide. You can point a gun at someones head and tell them to do something but only they can decide if they will do it or get a bullet in the head - a bad choice but to be able to choose in any give situation fate puts us in, thats definitely free will.

[Limitles Shadow]

Anyone taking philosophy should immediately recognize that it is obvious that fate exists.

Fate is just a word.

I think I'll leave it at that.

[netorie]

free will is the power to change fate. thats what i believe.
even if fate is whats goin to happen...a persons free will can change the outcome of their fate.

[Pinkaugust]

I can honestly say that I don't have any clue.. But I think that we have free will, and that our fate can be changed..

[Procyon]

I believe both are true to some extent...You have to look at the religious aspect of things...God gave us freewill, but everything we do is part of His plan.

[darkbliss]

It's hard to distinguish what is what.

You can call something fate eg. Finding $1
But it was your free will that you was looking at the ground at the time to find it.
But you can argue that fate made you look at the ground
But you can also say that you had a neck ache and therfore that forced you to look down
But that could also be fate.

Round and round we go.

I guess i believe in both

[sel]

cos im a muslim, i believe in a day of judgement, and so for that concept to work, we need free will, otherwise that would suck

and just cos god can control what we do, it doesent actually mean he wants to

[Fitey777]

free will almost all the way. BUT I believe that your day of death is predestined, take it or leave it.

[Kakashi_Love]

If life was a bus...Fate would be the driver....and Free Will would be the person on the bus. Each plays a role. You can can get off wherever you want...but if you want to go a certain direction...you're going to have to go through the effort of walking cuz the bus is only going down it's own route.

geez...i hope that makes sense.

[SleepingDisaster]

From what I believe
born, death is already decided by God and can't be avoided, but as long as we live we can choose to be a good person or to be a bad person, then when we die we responsible all we do as long as we live to the God

[Similac]

Free will.

I have the free will to almost be at 100 posts.

[Akatsuki™]

I believe in both fate and freewill :cool

(ps i also believe akatsuki are the best :amuse )


btw you past 100 posts :P

[Sublime]

I like the belief that we have free will in everything, even death. Knowing something is predetermined just makes me want to change it and mess up fate.

[kireato]

I don't believe in either... Which is weird. I think that fate and free will are just a way of seeing things. They are 2 different point of views. Someone can think it was fate all happened in a certain way while for another, all the decisions and actions to get there were made by free will.

Just decide what suits you best. The comfort of knowing everything is determined and well or the necessity to know that you can change the way things are to become.

I myself just live without thinking about it. If fate is true, then why worry, if it's free will, then i'm taking decisions and as long as i live my life, then it's ok too.
:)

[SoulFire]

I believe our fath is decided by the choices we make with our free will.

*brain tease*

[X2thaU]

^phag.

meh, i believe in both (good things that happen = freewill, bad things that happen = fate =P )

[kungfuchopstickz]

Life is nothing but a bunch of coincidences.

[llxl]

I believe in both. Maybe there's a fate set out for us, but I think we can change or choose the fate. I mean, someone can believe in free will, and their fate will be to believe in free will. Their fate can be to change their fate, yet it will be their free will that does it. So it depends on how you look at it.

I'm not really making sense, am I...

[morino ibiki]

fate isn't decided by anyone but yourself
it's pretty simple, our lives are decided by the principle of casualty. that's the only constant thing there is in this world

[lekki]

If everyone had a fate, then life would really suck. Crappy fates would be unavoidable so what would be the point of living life to the fullest only to have a miserable end?

I think there is no fate because you can always choose to get off your current path at any point you want. God made it that way for those who believe in Him. Free choice, do whatever the hell you want but remember you have to deal with the consequences. Action and reaction at all times.

[BobGuy]

If everyone had a fate, then life would really suck. Crappy fates would be unavoidable so what would be the point of living life to the fullest only to have a miserable end?

I think there is no fate because you can always choose to get off your current path at any point you want. God made it that way for those who believe in Him. Free choice, do whatever the hell you want but remember you have to deal with the consequences. Action and reaction at all times.

Reeeally now? Did you have a choice not to post that? Perhaps, but did you choose not to? No. You see what I'm getting at?

Okay lets, say you do have free will, and you had to pick a number between 1-10. Seriously now, you had to have a reason to pick the number you picked, was that free will? If that experience were to happen to you in a loop you'd pick the same thing. (Well, atleast i think this anyway)

Lets see.. crappy fates would be unavoidable... yes it would... what makes you think that isn't happening? Those people at Hiroshima surely picked that they wanted to get blasted in the face with the bomb right?

You can always choose to get off your current path at any point you want, eh? Maybe you can... but did you!? You either did or you didn't, if you did, did you have a choice about it? You aren't picking at random, there's no 50/50 thing going on. You picked it for a reason, the reason doesn't matter, but something made you pick it, did you choose your choice freely? Or did your experiences make you pick it? Something probably made you pick that, whether you believe you were getting pushed to pick that or not.

About this god thing, you're just throwing that stuff at people as fact when you have no idea whether it is true or not, I dunno if it's true, I'm probably not gonna know it's true, and you probably won't either, please don't involve god in this unless you have a valid point.

I do not know whether there is fate, or free will, this is just speculation.

[sasukecopyninja]

well fate a free will, depends what you consider free will, religion is oign to run into the badly btu yeah, if u ahve free will fate rusn in easily cause fate is just certin thats that happen no matter what so u may do what u please but in th end this will happen regalrdess of what you did. but tahts my thinking and opinion:P

[Raistlin-sama]

Actually, even if we have a so-called free will, we wil still have been born with a certain personality, that is then shaped according to events... It is this personality that makes the choices of "free" will, which means that we have no choice becoarse our personality wil act a certain way, and is therefore not "free"... Not that it really matters, just thought i would mention it

[Marl]

We're all completely free to follow whichever path has been laid out in front of us.

i.e. No matter how hard you struggle, you're just doing what you were destined to do anyway. :P

[Redux-shika boo]

free will is non existant everything qwas predetermined long ago.. we all follow a cord that designates any equacnate change or variance fate is inchangeable and exist people who doubt it are merely trying to reassure themselves into thinking that thier actions are important.

My philosphy is whatever happens happens except it, because you cannot stray from the hand of fate

[soulja_]

Maybe I do believe in "fate" to some kind of extent....
... other than that, I do believe that we are the masters of our own future, and every decision we make affects what becomes of our future

[Twizted3584]

I believe in a limited fate...that is to say that somethings are just meant to be and we can't change them. Like in the arena of love for instance. I believe that everyone has one special person out there for them, and you're either destined to meet them or not.

[zeoblade]

There is a fate but it can be changed with our free will. Those that believe in an unchangeable destiny are just making excuses for themselves. Actually its just like the Chuunin exam where Naruto battles Neji. I rest my case.

[ShadowGal19]

I think there is a mix of both in life. In my opninon, fate is science/nature. The things that cannot be controlled, such as being born with a genetic disease, being born having curly hair, or the time we would naturally expire since it has been discovered there is a code in people's DNA that tells the body to die, are what I would call fate.

I'm excluding other factors in the death scenario such as smoking, murder, preventable diseases, etc because I feel that those come along through personal choice. I believe that every choice we make affects our future and that if you make a choice that has a less than desirable ending, the other choice would have ended up completely different because it would probably have opened up a bunch of other choices that didn't exist down the path that was taken (that's confusing @_@). I also believe that the choices people make are intertwined. For an example we will use this hypothetical situtation: You are out for a walk and are murdered. If you hadn't gone out for that walk or gone down that street/trail/etc you wouldn't have been killed, and if the murderer hadn't gone out or decided to be in the exact area you were, you wouldn't be dead. It all narrows done to choices.

[falconmain]

if there is no way of knowing either way then it is best to assume that there is free will so that you can assume your action have an effect on the future. so if neither are provable then B) free will is my final answer :P

[Chamcham Trigger]

I choose free will. Too many people would have too many so many excuses for being asses if it was fate. Fate is a notion created due to the belief in an omnipotent omniscient god, since I don't fully believe with that I will go with free will....I do believe in a creator though.

[Vicious ♥]

if everything is already determined, what use is it too life, to think, to eat , to breath, to even post on this forum, if its already determined im gonna die tommorow o_O

like my grandmother always said

Free will determines your fate, do what you want, but never regret it ;)

[Chamcham Trigger]

if everything is already determined, what use is it too life, to think, to eat , to breath, to even post on this forum, if its already determined im gonna die tommorow o_O

like my grandmother always said

Free will determines your fate, do what you want, but never regret it ;)

very good point. What if life is one big sick joke and we in actuality are just lead to believe to have free will.

[Vicious ♥]

very good point. What if life is one big sick joke and we in actuality are just lead to believe to have free will.

that would really s*k :blink

[Reznor]

*was tempted to move this to the B.Dome* XD

Hmm.. I think I depends on the way you view causality... I'll check through previous posts before saying more (to made sure I don't reinerate something already said)

[DragonHeart52]

First off, I hate being limited by words when discussing the infinite; something is always lost in the translation. Based on my personal beliefs, I would have to say that I believe in a mixture of the two. First off, I agree with an earlier post that states that we are incapable of knowing all of reality because our experiences are based on our limited senses. I also believe that we get more than one chance at this "game"; the physicality of an incarnation doesn't designate the end of an individual.

That said, my view encompasses both free will and "fate", if fate is defined as a learning experience that the individual cannot avoid. Viewed as a game, free will determines the path between the gates of fate and allows the individual to choose the "angle" at which the gate is approached. Maturation of the individual is accomplished by passing through the gate and continuing on, using free will to chart the course through the maze. Whether maturation occurs in one lifetime or many is a mix of free will and fate. Eventually all gates must be passed.

Limited analogy, but that's about the best I can do in this format.
*end of general discussion*

[zeoblade]

I think there is a mix of both in life. In my opninon, fate is science/nature...

...It all narrows done to choices.

Genetics impedes but doesn't stop you.

[ShadowGal19]

Genetics impedes but doesn't stop you.
I totally agree and since there is proof all around me I'd be stupid to deny it. One example being a person could want to play sports, but have been born with the inability to walk, so to over come that you play things such as wheel chair basketball or you could be born totally blind but still live a perfectly normal life. What I meant was you (your parents) can't typically decide what is in your DNA, such as if you had green eyes or brown eyes, or you are a boy or girl, have heart disease or not, and that it is up to natural forces/chance/fate/whatever you want to call it. Never said you couldn't deal with the genes you were given.

[zeoblade]

I totally agree and since there is proof all around me I'd be stupid to deny it. One example being a person could want to play sports, but have been born with the inability to walk, so to over come that you play things such as wheel chair basketball or you could be born totally blind but still live a perfectly normal life. What I meant was you (your parents) can't typically decide what is in your DNA, such as if you had green eyes or brown eyes, or you are a boy or girl, have heart disease or not, and that it is up to natural forces/chance/fate/whatever you want to call it. Never said you couldn't deal with the genes you were given.

Haha there's my explanation done by someone else for me hehe! Maybe I don't have to write as much anymore and say the main facts and have the next person say it for me. However, I agree with your explanation. Give me a geeky bookworm and I can turn this person into a great athlete. You can change yourself with the decision to, and hard work.

[Raistlin-sama]

Haha there's my explanation done by someone else for me hehe! Maybe I don't have to write as much anymore and say the main facts and have the next person say it for me. However, I agree with your explanation. Give me a geeky bookworm and I can turn this person into a great athlete. You can change yourself with the decision to, and hard work

Not neccesarily, if your personality is a certain way you can not always change it. It may be part of your personality, that you do not have the will to do such things...

You follow me?

[EternalHatred]

I believe in the existence of destiny, but destiny is not destined to put destiny upon everything. Meaning destiny exists, but it can also be broken through.

[Shin-Uchiha]

Destiny is real, but it can be rewritten.

[dont_look_back]

naruto proved that wrong in ep sixty-something

i dont any way

[zeoblade]

Not neccesarily, if your personality is a certain way you can not always change it. It may be part of your personality, that you do not have the will to do such things...

You follow me?

Of course you can change it. The only thing you can't change is change itself. People that are successful in changing themselves have the will to do it, that's why they can.

naruto proved that wrong in ep sixty-something

That's right, he fought Neji. The power to believe in yourself is what it takes to change fate.

[tri-sapphire]

The only sure thing about the future is uncertainty :P.

Anyways, the only fate I bleive in are the fates of a few people, whose lives were determined before they were born. Those people being Jesus Christ, Adam and Eve, and a few other people who were chosen to do God's work.

Other than that, the only sure fate which we all share, is that one day we will die. Death is the only thing you have written in your destiny. The date, time and circumstance is unkown, and the rest of that book is blank, waiting to be filled with our words, thoughts, and actions.

[Heartgobbler]

I think there is no free will. We always act according to our nature so even if we have "free choice" result will be the same. If you put the man in certain situation, erase his memory and put him in the exact same situation again, he will do exactly the same again.

However, since we have no real way to check that, and we actually act "of our own will" even if it's determined by the world, there is really no differance.

[zeoblade]

i dont mean to be rude but i think you contradicted yourself because our nature is our will

[Raistlin-sama]

That's right, he fought Neji. The power to believe in yourself is what it takes to change fate.


Bullshit... well at least to a certain extent. I'll admit that believing in yourself will defintley help you change some things, but you can't just change everything by simply "believing in yourself and working hard"

I think there is no free will. We always act according to our nature so even if we have "free choice" result will be the same. If you put the man in certain situation, erase his memory and put him in the exact same situation again, he will do exactly the same again.

However, since we have no real way to check that, and we actually act "of our own will" even if it's determined by the world, there is really no differance

Excactly, and this is what I said in my very first post of this thread as well. If we have "free will" we will still act according to our personality, which was already determined when we were born (and then shaped according to events of course).

And your second point is right as well, we have no way to ever find out...
So people can believe what they want to believe, personaly I'm not quiet sure.

[zeoblade]

It maybe BS to you, that's fine. But if you feel you can't do anything then don't. The rest of us can and you're welcome to keep watching until you do believe

[therealultimatepower]

Well, to be fair, Naruto did have the Kyuubi. If he didn't, he would have gotten the same treatment Hinata got. And she believed in herself too.

[Jester12]

I believe in free will over fate

[zeoblade]

Well, to be fair, Naruto did have the Kyuubi. If he didn't, he would have gotten the same treatment Hinata got. And she believed in herself too.

That's a good point, shows Naruto's integrity

[senisi]

I believe that everything we do and everything we've done has already been decided for us. I also believe that we're all destined for something and that we must all follow our destiny according to plan because if we don't that could screw up everthing.

Everything happens for a reason.

[zeoblade]

Everything does happen for a reason but that reason isn't because someone has decided it for us. What you do or don't do next is determined by you (hopefully) and not someone else

[Kaki]

I belive that everything is predetermined however this dose not matter becose we still feel our choses influence it and they do....

[zeoblade]

Exactly, if you choose one path, then obviously logic will play a big part in what happens next. However, logic is subject to your change in decisions. If anything is set in stone, change is. As they say change is the only constant in the universe.

[EternalHatred]

How can free will exist if we are influenced by one another?
When one is born, one is immediately affected by the environment. It's the total environment that shapes one. You cannot imagine things that have not been experienced, but you can create new ideas by combining old ideas. Even combining is experienced. Can you imagine a color that is out of the 7 pure colors' range? Try, and fail. Humans cannot excape influence of the surroundings.
You are influenced by your parents, siblings, surroundings, computer, color of your house, your face, everything. But you cannot be what you are without experience. So, there is no free will. You cannot choose something that is unimagineable, since you can't even imagine it.
Does that mean destiny is everything? No. Destiny is not influence. One day you might accidently fall into a cave. 'accidently' is most likely not influenced to do so (but can be argued so). So, the accident might bring about new experiences. And therefore, destiny is there, but it is there to be experienced so that you can think you have free will. (?)

[skunkworks]

Free will exists, but there are outside factors of course. You can dub the culmination of your life as fate, or say that your choices brought you to that point.

[zeoblade]

Your own logic and logic in general in regards to environment sequence your future but you have the last choice in the end. Your future although sequenced by logic and environment is subject to your final decision. Influence is an influence, your decision is multifactorial so think of it as a balance of probabilities. It's not certain, therefore your future and fate is not certain or pre-determined.

[Ultra_Maniac]

I belive in Fare/Destiny

[Fitey777]

Free will all the way

[zeoblade]

Right on! ^ Hey my friend has that avatar for an emoticon on msn! Go freewill!