Oldie but Goodie: Mangekyou Sharingan Theory

[Invisus]

Since I began thinking about it over the past few days, and seeing it discussed about on the forums many times over, I have finally decided to give my prediction on the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Now we know that the Sharingan itself has the ability to see through and copy all Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu’s. Excluding of course Bloodline’s and Jutsu’s that require some type of unique catalyst. It’s something we all know, or should know if you are reading this post.

That was just a bit of background so we were all on the same page.

Anyway, now we get to my awesome prediction, which is awesome because I am Elite.

Mangekyo Sharingan, the dirty bastard that Itachi has shown to us, what it is we aren’t really sure, but it’s possible that it’s another Uchiha Bloodline, or the ‘true’ bloodline. I am sure we will find out later, but until then I will share with you the secret of the TRINITY. We’ve all seen the two skills the M. Sharingan uses, and that is Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi. Both of these are names from Japanese Mythology and both are very powerful techniques; however this is where it gets a bit interesting.

Tsukuyomi – A very high level genjutsu that has the ability to kill a person by destroying their will.

Amaterasu – A high level fire ability, one so high that it can burn through things that were previously thought invulnerable to fire (That toads stomach).

This is where it gets interesting. Like I said before, that cool word the ‘Trinity’ well there weren’t just two gods, there are three of them. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoou, I told you it would get interesting, didn’t I? The Trinity seems to be a deeply rooted part of Japanese mythology and religion, and in fact a symbol of the Trinity is the “Mitsu” or “Triple Tomoe” those tear shaped things we see in the Sharingan. Now remember what we know about the Sharingan? It’s abilities to copy the Nin, Gen, and Tai –jutsu.

Well, we have:

The Ninjutsu Amaterasu, a high level fire Jutsu named after the Goddess of the Sun who reigns over the heavens.

The Genjutsu Tsukuyomi, a high level illusion Genjutsu that is used as a hellish torture, and is surprisingly named after the God who rules the Underworld.

What are we missing; yes we are missing the Taijustu, which I believe will be named Susanoou after the rampaging war god. Whether it will be a technique or style I am not sure of, but what ever it is will be a very powerful and frightening technique. It appears that the Sharingan not only has the ability to copy all these types of Jutsu’s, but itself has three ‘ultimate’ Jutsu’s that could possibly be unrivaled in power. Of course that’s just a guess, I was only trying to tell you what I think might be the other power of the Sharingan might be.

You know what would suck, if someone already mentioned this when I wasn’t around and I made this post for no reason.

Extra: In a discussion I had with FU, it occured to me that the three Sharingan users might represent the Gods of the techniques that the Mangekyou Sharingan uses.

1st User - Amaterasu
2nd User - Tsukuyomi
3rd User - Susanou

I believe that Itachi is Tsukuyomi, mainly because he's a guy and it was the first technique he used. Also, the night that the Uchiha dies, you see Itachi on that pole sitting in front of the moon- and Kishimoto is known for tossing things in like that. If I am right, then the first Mangekyou user will be a female, representing Amaterasu.

That's about it.

>.>

[Final Ultima]

That theory is pretty good, and it makes a lot of sense, but it seems to me to be basically a collaberation of various other theories posted on Naruto forums everywhere.

[Invisus]

That theory is pretty good, and it makes a lot of sense, but it seems to me to be basically a collaberation of various other theories posted on Naruto forums everywhere.

Or it could be ESM's Awesome Prediction that came out before the other theories. :E

[Final Ultima]

Yeah, I know that prediction was the first...but it took me a while to realise who you were.

...<_<...
...>_>...

Oh come on, cut me some slack, most of my memory is based around pointless Naruto, Dragonball, Final Fantasy and Street Fighter trivia. I don't remember much else.

[Invisus]

Yeah, I know that prediction was the first...but it took me a while to realise who you were.

That's my fault. :x


Oh come on, cut me some slack, most of my memory is based around pointless Naruto, Dragonball, Final Fantasy and Street Fighter trivia. I don't remember much else.

You and me both :E

[rubbereruben]

This has already been posted by somebody else. Though that person said that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were born from the left and right eye and Susanou was born from the nose. That person also said that it could very well be that there is no 3rd attack, because it was born from the nose and not from the eyes. Easy as that.

I forgot who the person was who posted that though, rep to him.

[Invisus]

This has already been posted by somebody else. Though that person said that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were born from the left and right eye and Susanou was born from the nose. That person also said that it could very well be that there is no 3rd attack, because it was born from the nose and not from the eyes. Easy as that.

I forgot who the person was who posted that though, rep to him.

This theory is the first theory, it came about when people were still calling it the "Mange Sharingan" and Itachi had said "We cannot use it till Tsukuyomi becomes Amaterasu".

And I know that Susano was born of the nose, it still doesn't negate the symbolism between the three gods, the Sharingan's attacks, and the tomoe. It's very possible that Sasuke may never get the M. Sharingan but rather a different kind, or he may get it in a different way, and he may never get it.

[joedoebell]

I'd never head this theory before now, and I find it rather interesting.

Do you think there's any significance to the mark over Sasuke's nose when he releases CS2, in regards to this? It could just be a superficial similarity I suppose. A few other questions. Where is the third Sharingan user? Do you think she's a member of Itachi's group? And lastly, do you think this necessitates the death of Kakashi, as a Sharingan user that's not apart of this mythology?

[Jh1stgen]

Nice theory ... taijutsu eh? That would be seriously sick

[Invisus]

I'd never head this theory before now, and I find it rather interesting.

Do you think there's any significance to the mark over Sasuke's nose when he releases CS2, in regards to this? It could just be a superficial similarity I suppose. A few other questions. Where is the third Sharingan user? Do you think she's a member of Itachi's group? And lastly, do you think this necessitates the death of Kakashi, as a Sharingan user that's not apart of this mythology?

I wouldn't be suprised if it was to mark him as being Susano, like the scene with Itachi crouched before the moon. It's unknown where the 1st M. SHaringan user is, or if they are even alive and it's doubtful they are part of the Akastuki because Kisame had never seen of an Uchiha outside of Itachi.

It might, I wouldn't be suprised if Kakashi's death facilitated the evolution of Sasuke's eye into the M. Sharingan or possibly a whole new route. Though it's all speculation up to this point.

[Uchiha-Itachi89]

really really interesting. it makes sense but the 3rd user im pretty sure its obito, kakashi killed everyone expt 1 guy, maybe that guy left the clan before itachi killed everyone, obito was suposed dead. just another theory

[Aidake]

I think this theory makes a lot of sense. I remember from watching one of the many episodes when Sasuke remembers what happens to the Uchiha clan when they get massacred that Itachi fought GROUPS and groups of Uchiha clan members. How else would he have killed them all? Well it couldn't have been Amaterasu (we don't see the village burning) and I'll admit it could've been Tsukyiomi, but Itachi is a sick bastard and he had his sword and that's how we see the grandma/grandpa die (forgot their names, I know they weren't Sasuke's real grandma/grandpa lol) So if Itachi really does have a taijutsu technique that's terrifying, then that's what probably made it easy for him to kill the members of the Uchiha clan that fateful night :)

[shinraiden]

Back to the chunin exam. What were Kakashi and Sasuke working on? Taijutsu. Chidori was not the primary objective, Endurance was to build stamina for the Chakra reserves to power Chidori.

Itachi wants all power, and to beat all limits. While the personification theories are interesting, I think that Itachi wants all three levels. In any case, given the chidori exercises, Itachi and Gai's understanding that even the Mangekyou does not effectively trump Taijutsu, and the old Uchiha shuriken practice, it should be evident that the third aspect will most certainly be a taijutsu aspect.

[HAKU_lover]

this is the best theory that i've heard with my shot time on the boards...

[Sabaku no Ira]

This has already been posted by somebody else. Though that person said that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were born from the left and right eye and Susanou was born from the nose. That person also said that it could very well be that there is no 3rd attack, because it was born from the nose and not from the eyes. Easy as that.

I forgot who the person was who posted that though, rep to him.

Maybe Sasuke will develop a Sharingan on his NOSE and learn Susanou? (Rudolf the reindeer, anyone?) :p

Personally I seriously doubt that there would be a Third Mangekyu Sharingan user still alive in the manga. Haven't they mentioned somewhere that Itachi and Sasuke were the only living Uchihas after the massacre? It seems more likely that the "third" user of the Mange Sharingan is someone from the past...

[Therahedwig]

I also came to that theory,
but now listen, I've worked it out:

there is this legend about Susano(yes, the book I consulted wrote it like that)
Now you see, Susano was a bit pissed with his sister Amaratsu, because she was the maingoddess, and he was just the storm/sea god, so he rampaged her halls of weaving.
Amaratsu was so offended by this that she locked herself up in a cave, because there was no sun anymore, the land became dark and filled with demons, so the other gods made Amaratsu come out by placing a mirror in frond of the cave, and pretending there was a greater goddess, amaratsu looked into the mirror, and thought that her reflection was the new goddess.
When she saw what kind of horror her absence had caused, she decided to stay.

Now Susano was banned from where-ever those gods live(heaven I supose)
And went to travel around the world.
One day he found an old couple who where crying over the loss of there daughter, the rice-princess.
Because this evil snake/dragon had kidnapped her to marry her.
Now the dragon/snake was called in japanese(here it comes, here it comes)
Orochi(understand what I'm getting at?)
Susano made the dragon drunk with sake, and while the dragon slept, he found "the sword of the burning clouds" in it's tail(also known as cloudbrand in many rpg translations). With that sword Susano killed the Orochi and he married the princess(yeah, well somewhere along the way he transformed the princess in a hairpin to make sure she was save...)And gave the cloudbrand to his sister as apolegy...(cloudbrand is now a part of the japanese national treasure.)

Now, most of you know what I'm getting at, for the others:
That sword orochimaru drags along is infact the cloudbrand.
My theory is that sasuke will be the one to kill Orochimaru.(with or without cloudbrand)
The sake in the story point to somesort of backstabbing(you don't expect someone that gives you sake to kiil you.)
Now probarly either Naruto or Tsunade will function as amaratsu, and one of the series girls will be the rice-princess(or it will be naruto, but sasuke won't marry him in that case, don't you think?)

Anyway, that thingy about the mangekyou being another, or the original bll,
I don't really think so, it is more assumable that some nuts uchiha(which one, they're all the same :smile-big ) f*ck*d around with the bll and that the mangekou came out of it.
Next to that I have a theory that the normal sharingan is standing for heaven(looking so much like the heaven seal) and the Mangekyou standing for earth(looking so much like the gaia seal)

tell me what you think!

[*-~itachi~-*]

Hmmm the theory's are quit intresting but i do not agree with the last part of Invisus one..!!

*quote:
Extra: In a discussion I had with FU, it occured to me that the three Sharingan users might represent the Gods of the techniques that the Mangekyou Sharingan uses.

1st User - Amaterasu
2nd User - Tsukuyomi
3rd User - Susanou

I believe that Itachi is Tsukuyomi, mainly because he's a guy and it was the first technique he used. Also, the night that the Uchiha dies, you see Itachi on that pole sitting in front of the moon- and Kishimoto is known for tossing things in like that. If I am right, then the first Mangekyou user will be a female, representing Amaterasu.


I think that the three spots on the sharingan each represent one of the jutsu's..!!
so one spot for Ninjutsu, 1 for Genjutsu, and 1 for Taijutsu’s..!!
In this way you can also say that if someone has a 2 spot sharingan he's only availabel to copy 2 of the jutsu's..!!

But now for mangekou sharingan..!! When itachi got the mangekou you saw the spots of the normal sharingan melt together..!! So thats why i disagree with you about the part that there three diffent kinds of mangekou i think there's only one mangekou witch allows you to control all three of the powers Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanou..!! Thats also because Itachi tells Sasuke that he can't get a mangekou until he killd his best friend..!! it shows that every uchiha clan member(but at least all close realtives from itachi like father brother enz..!!) kan become the mangekou but they have to kill there best friend for it..!!(it's all about hate..!!) but we shall see if sasuke can become the mangekou without killing his best friend..!!(ore maybe become's orochimaru his best friend..!! and than he kills orochimaru..!!) but this is just fake guessing..!!

Ciao please give comments..!!:)

[Pinkaugust]

It makes so much sense!!! I know what the third technique is!! It's not a new technique we've never seen before, it's Itachi's KICK!!! Oh, it's so obvious now!!

[Pinkaugust]

Hmmm the theory's are quit intresting but i do not agree with the last part of Invisus one..!!

*quote:
Extra: In a discussion I had with FU, it occured to me that the three Sharingan users might represent the Gods of the techniques that the Mangekyou Sharingan uses.

1st User - Amaterasu
2nd User - Tsukuyomi
3rd User - Susanou

I believe that Itachi is Tsukuyomi, mainly because he's a guy and it was the first technique he used. Also, the night that the Uchiha dies, you see Itachi on that pole sitting in front of the moon- and Kishimoto is known for tossing things in like that. If I am right, then the first Mangekyou user will be a female, representing Amaterasu.

That's an excellent theory, but then... Who would Sasuke be?

[Esponer]

That's an excellent theory, but then... Who would Sasuke be?

Susanowo, who, by the legends, would be the one to slay Orochimaru.

This is a nice theory, and indeed one of the classics, but I wonder what sort of S-class taijutsu you can actually do. The Shishi Rendan is nice, but the Celestial Gates appear to be the be-all and end-all of taijutsu. What can you really do with taijutsu that is in the same class as the Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu?

[morino ibiki]

This has already been posted by somebody else. Though that person said that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were born from the left and right eye and Susanou was born from the nose. That person also said that it could very well be that there is no 3rd attack, because it was born from the nose and not from the eyes. Easy as that.

I forgot who the person was who posted that though, rep to him.

i posted that, but i'm not sure if i was the first though.

[(\/)ugen]

Mayb it's in combination with uchiha's special shuriken technique

[Gaara-Kazekage]

Someone once said that Susanowo's a Thunder God (who controls lightning), so I believe the 3rd jutsu could be Chidori, a jutsu completed by Obito when he gave his eye to Kakashi. And if it's born from the nose, then it links to Kakashi b'cos of his sense of smell. Also, I think Itachi was surprised to see Sasuke use the Chidori to attack him (in the anime)...maybe Itachi knew something?

[Uchiha_Sasuke_12]

taijutsu, eh? sugoiiii!!!!! i hope you're right, it's going to be awesome!!!

[Sobe]

It makes sense, especially if the third user unlocks it through the nose. That could mean that Sasuke wouldn't have to kill his best friend in order to obtain M. Sharingan since it's through his nose, not his eyes. Perhaps it's unlocked simply when someone reaches a certain level

[Weizen_Bier]

or sniffs to much dog poo XD

i think this is an awesome theory, but i don't think the chidori alone is on equal level with the other to jutsus. maybe a better form of the chidori. maybe a ranged form, with the shuriken jutsus from the uchiha

just wild guessing.

[Vetrean]

Nope, Chidori can't be the third Mangekyou Sharingan Jutsu, since the Mangekyou Sharingan isn't required. Hell, the mastered Sharingan isn't even required, so...

Other than that, there's only one flaw in the first post theory: Itachi's used both the Amaterasu and the Tsukuyomi in the past. And, as the other people have said, perhaps the melding of the three tomoes have some osrt of significance.

Maybe each of the tomoes in the non-Mangekyou Sharingan each represent one of the three gods. The unmastered Sharingan possibly means the absence of Amaterasu while she hid in the cave. When she comes out, the trinity of Tsukuyomi, Susanowa, and Amaterasu is complete, correct?

So, the melding of the Mangekyou Sharingan possibly combines the three, allowing access to all three of the jutsus. This would work, because it might be that each of the tomoes contains something that prevents the jutsu enabled by the tomoe directly ahead of it, or behind(theoretically, the one ahead of the one on the right would be the one on the left, with the pointy thing pointing toward the aforementioned one on the right). By activating the MS, the circle is completed, granting greater power to the user.

Either way, this is great stuff.

EDIT: Oh, I refined the God trinity theory abit.

When an Uchiha first gets the Sharingan, it begins as two tomoes, correct? This symbolizes Susanowa and Tsukuyomi, as Amaterasu is in the cave.

When an Uchiha masters the Sharingan, it symbolizes coaxing Amaterasu out of the cave, by some show of ability on the part of the Uchiha, allowing the third tomoe to appear, and completing the Trinity. However, because of past differences, the three gods remain in turmoil, and true unity isn't achieved.


When an Uchiha gains the Mangekyou Sharingan, it symbolizes peace being forged between the three gods. This allows the Mangekyou Sharingan user to call upon their powers. However, because of the previous conflict, the peace is brief, and disappears very quickly. Hence the activation of the mangekyou Sharingan. The melding of the three tomoes symbolizes the three gods arriving at peace, and the separation shows that some sort of conflict has separated them.

[Sess]

Very cool stuff. I'm gonna have to let this stuff gestate in my brain for a while before I can think of anything to add.

[azn_sephiroth]

niiice theory. And interesting info

[imchemist]

I'd never head this theory before now, and I find it rather interesting.

Do you think there's any significance to the mark over Sasuke's nose when he releases CS2, in regards to this? It could just be a superficial similarity I suppose. A few other questions. Where is the third Sharingan user? Do you think she's a member of Itachi's group? And lastly, do you think this necessitates the death of Kakashi, as a Sharingan user that's not apart of this mythology?

Come on, Kakashi will NEVER DIE!!! He is the coolest character in this series. He needs to survive to see the light of the day!!!

[Vetrean]

Um...Well...Kakashi has already seen the light of the day...

[Maximus]

^ Invisus, excellent theory and excellent thinking. I know u didnt copy somebody. :wink

Anyway i also believe sasuke's saringan gonna evolve to ms, b/c of high emotions when he fights itachi. I wrote small similar thoery on how sasuke gonna get ms on some theory sticky.

I think even itachi knows that there is more then one way of getting MS. Easiest one would be killing best friend. I sometimes starting to belive that, Kakashi is the third person who can obtain MS. Stupid i know ...but it happens. :laugh

[Heldensheld]

Sasuke is pretty good at taijutsu...maybe Itachi might have meant him...Kishi wants us to think!

[Vetrean]

Ya know, I'm feeling a bit cheated now that Kakashi has the mangekyou and has the two 00ber-jutsus...

[Artuir]

Aw that's nothing.. that just means Kakashi is going to die! Yes, he's going to die. And then be brought back from the dead as the Akatsuki leaders' puppet but he'll be all robotified. It'll be AWESOME or SUGOI or whatever you naruto nerds call it nowadays.

[Vetrean]

Aw...this isn't DBZ, you know. At least here, someone else has to die for a resurrection.

[Blood Dawn]

Itachi: Genjutsu Type Mangekyou Sharingan.
Kakashi: Ninjutsu Type Mangekyou Sharingan.
Sasuke: Taijutsu Type Mangekyou Sharingan.

[Vetrean]

Cept Kakashi also seems to have a genjutsu, and Itachi has used a ninjutsu. ALso, don't forget his god-like kick!!

[wolf la jingga]

This is definitely offtopic but it just cross my mind

could Itachi, Kakashi, and Sasuke copy Rasengan...
it seems to me that they didn't esp. Kakashi whose sensei is Yondaime, he must hace watch it somwhere, somehow right..

just asking

[Blood Dawn]

Depends if they have the Chakra Control and the Amount of Chakra?

[slashez]

no because rasengan is an ability that doesnt require ninjitsu, taijitsu or genjitsu, its simply chakra manipulation, something that sharingan is not advanced enough to copy, maybe the byukagen can, but thats off topic

as far as the original theory goes, it would seem to make sense to me, since symbolism is huge in this show, that in order for the three gods/three pupil theory to be accurate, that each of these three special abilities, the mangekyou, the super fire and the mystery third ability, wouldnt it make sense that each of these abilities would be activated by one of the three pupils in the sharingan, and perhaps an ultimate sharingan technique would be realized after learning these three moves, which would focus on the smaller pupils combining with the middle normal pupil, except that when we see itachi use mangekyou, all the pupils combine to form one symbol, to me that says one of two things, the three god theory is incorect, or that in fact the mangekyou sharingan is the ultimate ability of any sharingan user to achieve

I also thought that maybe if the three god's theory was correct, that maybe each other ability would form a different symbol when used, but (correct me if im wrong) we have only seen the formation made when mangekyou is formed, so maybe thats the case and we just have not seen the symbol made when itachi uses heaven fire

[Vetrean]

no because rasengan is an ability that doesnt require ninjitsu, taijitsu or genjitsu, its simply chakra manipulation, something that sharingan is not advanced enough to copy, maybe the byukagen can, but thats off topic

All jutsus other than tai are essentially chakra manipulation. Rasengan can be counted as a ninjutsu.

I do agree that the Sharingan can't copy it, for long and tedious reasons.

as far as the original theory goes, it would seem to make sense to me, since symbolism is huge in this show, that in order for the three gods/three pupil theory to be accurate, that each of these three special abilities, the mangekyou, the super fire and the mystery third ability,

I'd like to point out that the three abilities are actually triggered by the Mangekyou; Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and some sort of speculated uber-taijutsu called Susanowa or something.

wouldnt it make sense that each of these abilities would be activated by one of the three pupils in the sharingan, and perhaps an ultimate sharingan technique would be realized after learning these three moves, which would focus on the smaller pupils combining with the middle normal pupil,

Read; the three abilities that are speculated to be symbolized by the three gods are all activated after the Mangekyou. AS I said before, I believe each tomoe represents one of the gods, each holding something the other needs to use their jutsu. Read one of my previous posts.


[/QUOTE]except that when we see itachi use mangekyou, all the pupils combine to form one symbol, to me that says one of two things, the three god theory is incorect, or that in fact the mangekyou sharingan is the ultimate ability of any sharingan user to achieve[/QUOTE]

The Mangekyou Sharingan symbolizes harmony between the three warring gods, I believe, and allows each of their abilities to be unlocked depending on how well you keep this peace.

I also thought that maybe if the three god's theory was correct, that maybe each other ability would form a different symbol when used, but (correct me if im wrong) we have only seen the formation made when mangekyou is formed, so maybe thats the case and we just have not seen the symbol made when itachi uses heaven fire

...Itachi uses Mangekyou for the Amaterasu. Please, read all the posts, not just the theory. I've expanded and explained my theory about this theory.

[slashez]

the only problem i have with your theory is that in order for it to be accurate having itachi represent only one of the three gods because his first abiliity in the hierarchy of god related abilites (this being the mangekyou relating to the god of illusions), is you would have to disregard his ability to use his heaven fire ninjitsu (which is represented by one of the other gods), so what i mean is it seems that your assumption of itachi representing just that specific trinity god as opposed to the one relating to the heaven fire god, seems arbitrary

[Vetrean]

I said that the Mangekyou Sharingan represented teh harmony of the three gods, and that Itachi simply had unlocked two of the three god abilities. I never said that Itachi would be just one god; I think I argued against it, in fact.

[slashez]

I believe that Itachi is Tsukuyomi, mainly because he's a guy and it was the first technique he used. Also, the night that the Uchiha dies, you see Itachi on that pole sitting in front of the moon- and Kishimoto is known for tossing things in like that. If I am right, then the first Mangekyou user will be a female, representing Amaterasu.

That's about it.

>.>


Um i dont know if youre the same person who started this thread just under a different name, but my argument was relating to the original poster of this thread, as i stated in my post, but based on this quote it seems pretty appearant that the poster (you might be him i dont know) is saying that itachi represents just one of the three gods

[Vetrean]

I'm not Invisus. Invisus is not me.

[Sasuke - The Avenger]

Wow.

Now that's a detailed theory. WHERE DO THE JAPANESE GET THEIR MOTIVATION FOR PUTTING IN SECRET STUFF LIKE THIS!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Saying of course, that kishimoto had this planned all along. ^_^

[Vetrean]

Nice sig, though that's not really the point.

Kishimoto is just good at foreshadowing. I seem to remember back in the Wave Country arc, I think chapter 22, there was a picture of Sasuke standing on a tree with a snake coiled around him.

[Shidoshi]

no because rasengan is an ability that doesnt require ninjitsu, taijitsu or genjitsu, its simply chakra manipulation, something that sharingan is not advanced enough to copy, maybe the byukagen can, but thats off topicRasengan is ninjutsu. Stated, in fact, by both Jiraiya, and the Databook.

In principle, the sharingan should be able to copy it, as it's apparently not a bloodline jutsu, nor does it require a contract to perform, so, it falls within the realm of being copyable. However, it's unlikely that any of the three remaining sharingan users left will copy it, as it's one of Naruto's trademark jutsu, and Jiraiya already has it too...

...but that's not to say they can't copy it, just that they won't.

[slashez]

um, first off then why cant sasuke copy it when he fights naruto with sharingan a few times. He is intrigued by seeing it like three times, but never once tries to copy it when hes fighting him (perhaps there's more to it that sharingan cant copy?) And second, it may be a ninjitsu, but sharingan can't copy it because there are no seals to use, thus the appeal of the technique by naruto. all he is doing is pulling chakra into his hand, since the sharingan's level of insight is not as good as hyuuga's byukagen, it cannot see chakra movement, now maybe neji could copy it, but thats an entirely different theory altogether.

[Shidoshi]

um, first off then why cant sasuke copy it when he fights naruto with sharingan a few times. He is intrigued by seeing it like three times, but never once tries to copy it when hes fighting him (perhaps there's more to it that sharingan cant copy?) And second, it may be a ninjitsu, but sharingan can't copy it because there are no seals to use, thus the appeal of the technique by naruto. all he is doing is pulling chakra into his hand, since the sharingan's level of insight is not as good as hyuuga's byukagen, it cannot see chakra movement, now maybe neji could copy it, but thats an entirely different theory altogether.Taijutsu has no seals. The Lotus has no seals. Yet, Sasuke was able to copy the most amazing (and dangerous) part of the Lotus just by seeing it with his sharingan...

...and, according to both Gai and Lee, copied it perfectly.

[slashez]

sharingan can copy movement down to a t, and no sharingan does not copy lotus, sasuke does not use lotus and open gates like lee does, all his lion combo is, is copying lee's style of movement and making a combo similar to his, nowhere does he ever copy lotus/gates technique.

Secondly, yes sharingan can copy those, but same thing with seals, theyre just movements, and yes sharingan does copy those, however rasengan uses absolutely no movement (yes naruto does, but thats cause he hasnt completely mastered it, jiraiya however, requires no movement when he forms it) its just merely chakra manipulation with no movement, again, thus its appeal to naruto in the first place

[MS81]

rasengan is a chakra manipulation like slashez said but I think in the databook its ninjutsu.

the only reason why sasuke didn't copy it b'cause kishi wants to keep the story on tact like sasuke training with oro,jiraiyah&naruto,tsunade&sakura.

[Shidoshi]

sharingan can copy movement down to a t, and no sharingan does not copy lotus, sasuke does not use lotus and open gates like lee does, all his lion combo is, is copying lee's style of movement and making a combo similar to his, nowhere does he ever copy lotus/gates technique.

Secondly, yes sharingan can copy those, but same thing with seals, theyre just movements, and yes sharingan does copy those, however rasengan uses absolutely no movement (yes naruto does, but thats cause he hasnt completely mastered it, jiraiya however, requires no movement when he forms it) its just merely chakra manipulation with no movement, again, thus its appeal to naruto in the first placeHoo boy. Someone...Sai, jemakai, Tautou, ESM, raijin, tmmyc find the "Sharingan Copying the Rasengan" thread that dealt with Sasuke opening the Initial Gate (which is why he was hurt after using his Lion Combo) after copying part of the Lotus from what he saw of Lee's attack...keeping in mind that Obito's sharingan (and therefore, any sharingan) was able to see Rin's internal chakra flow.

[MS81]

shidoshi I feel you on what you are saying because some people think kakashi didnt do Mangekyou sharingan they said he just call it that because itachi calls it M.sharingan

[slashez]

Hoo boy. Someone...Sai, jemakai, Tautou, ESM, raijin, tmmyc find the "Sharingan Copying the Rasengan" thread that dealt with Sasuke opening the Initial Gate (which is why he was hurt after using his Lion Combo) after copying part of the Lotus from what he saw of Lee's attack...keeping in mind that Obito's sharingan (and therefore, any sharingan) was able to see Rin's internal chakra flow.


wasnt he hurt after using the lion combo, cause he didnt have much chakra to begin with before the start of the battle, then he used up some chakra actually fighting, and not to mention, oh yea the cursed seal which at that point wasn't yet sealed by kakashi..

[Vetrean]

^What relevance does that have? I might have not understood it completely, but it doesn't seem to make a point.

EDIT: The above was to above slashez's post.

And yes, Sasuke used the Initial Gate. Even if he didn't seem hurt after using it, neither did Lee after just opening the gate in the beginning. He probably opened and closed it just to perform the Shadow Leaf Dance and the little kick to the chin. Considering that Lee's speed is not fast enough to disappear with the weights, and he did disappear to use that little kick and the Kage Buyo, he probably opened the Gate just for that.

Also, the fact is that the Curse Seal only affected him when he molded chakra. The Lion Combo was just taijutsu. Last I heard, taijutsu doesn't require chakra molding?

[Shidoshi]

wasnt he hurt after using the lion combo, cause he didnt have much chakra to begin with before the start of the battle, then he used up some chakra actually fighting, and not to mention, oh yea the cursed seal which at that point wasn't yet sealed by kakashi..I'll explain this thoroughly...hopefully.

When you open the Initial Gate, it releases the brain's limiters on the muscles allowing you to use more chakra per second than you normally could, giving you 100% muscle power. That's increased chakra flow.

The Cursed Seal reacted to any chakra use before Kakashi sealed it.

Therefore, if you say he didn't have much chakra to begin with (because most of it was drained by Yoroi earlier in their fight), and the cursed seal reacts (before it was sealed, mind you) to any chakra use, then that would have to mean that Sasuke used more chakra, which is only possible by opening the Initial Gate to let his muscles get more access to more chakra than normal for the split second he did the Kage Buyou to kick Yoroi into the air.

The fact that he says "apparently this jutsu is unreliable" afterwards, signifies that what he did also had a subconscious aspect to it, which would be explained by copying that part of the Lotus, but not knowing exactly what he copied.

Think about this: why would Lee and Gai be so shocked and amazed with Sasuke's talent if he only copied some physical movement? They were shocked because he had copied the part of the Lotus that took the most training...opening the Gate(s). That's why Gai reacted the way he did when he saw Sasuke's Lion Combo, because he knew what Sasuke had to have done in order to launch Yoroi as high as he did...

[MS81]

once again shidoshi is correct.

[Vetrean]

Hey, Shidoshi, so when you open the gates to increase muscle power, chakra's a part of it? I had assumed it was that you used chakra to open the gate, but it didn't have another part in it.

[Uchiha Chris]

Some real nice theories on the first page, I can belive in it.
Specially the first poster and the other one about supposedly Sasuke being the god killing Orochi [maru] with the sword, it all fits.

[slashez]

I'll explain this thoroughly...hopefully.

When you open the Initial Gate, it releases the brain's limiters on the muscles allowing you to use more chakra per second than you normally could, giving you 100% muscle power. That's increased chakra flow.

The Cursed Seal reacted to any chakra use before Kakashi sealed it.

Therefore, if you say he didn't have much chakra to begin with (because most of it was drained by Yoroi earlier in their fight), and the cursed seal reacts (before it was sealed, mind you) to any chakra use, then that would have to mean that Sasuke used more chakra, which is only possible by opening the Initial Gate to let his muscles get more access to more chakra than normal for the split second he did the Kage Buyou to kick Yoroi into the air.

The fact that he says "apparently this jutsu is unreliable" afterwards, signifies that what he did also had a subconscious aspect to it, which would be explained by copying that part of the Lotus, but not knowing exactly what he copied.

Think about this: why would Lee and Gai be so shocked and amazed with Sasuke's talent if he only copied some physical movement? They were shocked because he had copied the part of the Lotus that took the most training...opening the Gate(s). That's why Gai reacted the way he did when he saw Sasuke's Lion Combo, because he knew what Sasuke had to have done in order to launch Yoroi as high as he did...


Ugh fine, let me explain it more in depth so that a person like you might actually be able to understand how sharingan actually works

If you recall the zabuza kakashi fight in which zabuza found the way of negating the sharingan, he revealed to us the way sharingan works. There are two aspects, first it can mimic movements of things it sees, which is why zabuza used the thick mist, if kakashi couldnt see him, he couldnt see his movements and mimic them identically. We know this to be fact as well, because kakashi acknowledged zabuza's "brilliance" and confirmed this

Secondly it has the whole hypnotic aspect, which is basically irrelevant in this topic, so lets think about the copying aspect more deeply

If ALL the sharingan can do is analyze a jutsu and mimic movements exactly, how in gods name do you come to the conclusion that it can magically and automatically imitate the way chakra is used? Just because kakashi who has sharingan can copy jutsu simply by seeing the physical movements of the seals formed, DOES NOT MEAN HE COPIES THE CHAKRA. The reason kakashi can use so many jutsu's correctly while copying seals, is because he is quite the genius ninja. Now, since lotus requires no movement whatsoever to activate, simply control of chakra (just like rasengan) where do you get the magic idea that sharingan can mimic it? If your theory were to be accurate, how come someone can't copy a bloodline limit technique, by your theory all a jutsu is chakra control, therefore by your theory sharingan should be able to copy it, however we know that it can not. I do not understand people like you who attribute mystical new powers never mentioned or even hinted at for the sharingan. Yes its a cool ability, but christ it seems like you want to believe it is the end all god of all ninja techniques, and then attribute powers to it to fit that description.

once again shidoshi is correct.


I wonder if shidoshi is comfortable with you hanging off his nuts like that?

[scipioafricanus]

If you read the manga then you would know that this theory falls apart from the begining . In the manga we have seen kakashi obtain the mangekyou sharingan which allows him to minupluate time and space.
If you say that the Amaterasu is the black fire which burnt through the toad belly thingy and Tsukuyomi is the genjitsu technique then this means the third technique must be kakashi's which means we have witnessed all three mangekyou techniques therefore Sasunou cannot be a taijitsu based technique.
Also the above poster couldn't be more right, if you remember sasuke can copy rocklee's moves but why can't he copy neji's. The answer is because neji's involve him forcusing chakra to his hands which he uses to block his oponents chakra circulatory system, which adds to the prove that the sharinga can only copy the oponents movements and not thier minupulation of chakra. Even naruto was able to ripp off lee's secondary lotus and call it the naruto "uzimaki" rendan.

[slashez]

If you read the manga then you would know that this theory falls apart from the begining . In the manga we have seen kakashi obtain the mangekyou sharinga which allows him to minupluate time and space.
If you say that the Amaterasu is the black fire which burnt through the toad belly thingy and Tsukuyomi is the genjitsu technique then this means the third technique must be kakashi's which means we have witnessed all three mangekyou techniques therefore Sasunou cannot be a taijitsu based technique.

Thats actually a very good point, we all saw kakashi use some new form of the sharingan to make the explosion happen in a new dimension (also the sharingan form on his eye was different from when itachi used mangekyou). Since we know that mangekyou is a genjutsu, an intensely powerful and deathly genjutsu, then if kakashi were to use mangekyou himself, an illusion would not have been able to divert an explosion into another dimension. If it were mangekyou (an illusion) he might have been able to make people think it was in another dimension and the explosion would have gone off regularly, but he saved people by making it explode in another dimension, so i doubt its a simple illusion at that point. So if there are only three aspects to a heightened power sharingan then we might have seen all three already.

[Vetrean]

Thats actually a very good point, we all saw kakashi use some new form of the sharingan to make the explosion happen in a new dimension (also the sharingan form on his eye was different from when itachi used mangekyou). Since we know that mangekyou is a genjutsu, an intensely powerful and deathly genjutsu, then if kakashi were to use mangekyou himself, an illusion would not have been able to divert an explosion into another dimension. If it were mangekyou (an illusion) he might have been able to make people think it was in another dimension and the explosion would have gone off regularly, but he saved people by making it explode in another dimension, so i doubt its a simple illusion at that point. So if there are only three aspects to a heightened power sharingan then we might have seen all three already.

First off, the Sharingan must copy jutsus and chakra, because otherwise Sasuke could not have copied the opening of the first gate. If all he did was copy a goddamn kick, why would Gai and Lee have been so surprised? Because the first gate was required for the speed of that one kick. Naruto never copied the opening of the Initial Gate; did he launch Kiba into the air just like Sasuke and Lee? No, he did a triple kick with three Kage Bunshins. Can Sasuke see tenketsu? No, he cannot. It's already been shown that the Sharingan can see chakra, as evidenced by Sasuke in the Forest of Death arc and Obito in Kakashi Gaiden. How about you read the manga before spouting off half-truths, huh?


Second, your points fall horribly wrong, because the MANGEKYOU IS NOT A GENJUTSU, YOU DUMBASS. The Mangekyou is just a heightened form of the Sharingan. The Tsukuyomi is the genjutsu, the Amaterasu is ninjutsu, and there is the speculated Susanouo, which should be taijutsu. Kakashi's Mangekyou differs from Itachi's, or did you not notice? Kakashi should not have been able to gain Mangekyou, and it's still unexplained how he got it.
And it's not three aspects of the heightened power Sharingan, it's three Mangekyou Sharingan (the REAL Mangekyou Sharingan, not the lame Kakashi knock-off) techniques. STOP CALLING TSUKUYOMI THE MANGEKYOU, GODDAMMIT.

Also, I'd like to ask you since when was Haku and Zabuza the expert on the Sharingan? Do they have the Sharingan? Did they see through a Sharingan user's eyes? It's been shown that the Sharingan can see the goddamn chakra flow, though not to the extent of the Byakugan. Stop taking what a non-SHaringan user spouts off about the Sharingan as fact.

[chibbi-kitsune]

And it's not three aspects of the heightened power Sharingan, it's three Mangekyou Sharingan (the REAL Mangekyou Sharingan, not the lame Kakashi knock-off) techniques. STOP CALLING TSUKUYOMI THE MANGEKYOU, GODDAMMIT.


Why do you say that Kakashi's Mangekyou is a knock off? Deidara said that Kakashi's doujutsu was on the same level as Itachi's. As for the difference in appearance from Itachi's I believe that has to do with the name Mangekyou (Kaleidoscope). A Kaleidoscope changes in to different shapes so the appearance of the Mangekyou probably changes shape depending on the jutsu used.

[Vetrean]

Because Kakashi isn't supposed to have the Mangekyou. Did he kill his best friend? Hell no. It's even different in appearance, and while the Kaleidoscope part does make sense, that doesn't mean it should be different for everyone, considering not a lot of people get it. Kakashi's well on his way not to becoming an insurmountable villain, but to being an extraordinarily overpowered hero. That's why I said it was a lame knockoff.

Besides, what Kakashi calls the mangekyou Sharigan might not be a true Mangekyou, but simply his interpretation of the Mangekyou. After all, he hasn't had the Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, and there's no one around to confirm that it's the Mangekyou.

[chibbi-kitsune]

It is only speculation that the Mangekyou is limited to 3 jutsus. It has not been proven just like Susanoo. There is obviously another way to achieve Mangekyou other than killing your best friend because Sasuke will never achieve that, he will have to obtain Mangekyou in another way. Kakashi has a real Mangekyou whether we like it or not and he will never be overpowered as long as he passes out after every Mangekyou use.

[Vetrean]

1) It's only speculation that Sasuke's going to get the Mangekyou.

2) It's only Kakashi's speculation that what he has is the Mangekyou, not a twisted form of the Sharingan brought about by experimentation.

3) Kakashi's overpowered every fight. Every damn fight. It's like Goku from DBZ; just because at the end of every hard fight he passes out or nearly dies or does die, does that mean he's normal and average? No, because it's not during battle.

[MS81]

chibi kitsune said:
Why do you say that Kakashi's Mangekyou is a knock off? Deidara said that Kakashi's doujutsu was on the same level as Itachi's. As for the difference in appearance from Itachi's I believe that has to do with the name Mangekyou (Kaleidoscope). A Kaleidoscope changes in to different shapes so the appearance of the Mangekyou probably changes shape depending on the jutsu used.
__________________
hell yeah when look into a kaleidoscope it changes different shapes nobody thougt about that good observation. I can't stand ppl who say kakashi's a rip off.

chibi kitsune also remeber that he use it more than once so he will eventually be able to master it like chidori/raikiri
mangekyousharigan :kksharing

[Tenzou]

well, perhaps Kakashi ripped out the eyes of some dude that had the mangekyou sharingan that no one knew about.

OR like a cow with mangekyou sharingan... haha

I'd agree with Kakashi emulating Mangekyou sharingan from Itachi's Tsukiyomi no jutsu.

[Vetrean]

chibi kitsune said: hell yeah when look into a kaleidoscope it changes different shapes nobody thougt about that good observation. I can't stand ppl who say kakashi's a rip off.

chibi kitsune also remeber that he use it more than once so he will eventually be able to master it like chidori/raikiri
mangekyousharigan :kksharing

Obviously, you enjoy Canon-Sues? Kakashi shouldn't be able to have the Mangekyou for two reasons:

He isn't an Uchiha.

He wouldn't have killed his best friend.

That leaves two options: That there are two or more ways to gain the Mangekyou Sharingan, or that Kakashi twisted his Sharingan using a jutsu and was under the impression that this was a form of the Mangekyou Sharingan.

I believe the latter is more likely. That's why I call his mangekyou a knock-off.

[MS81]

kenshiro said:I'd agree with Kakashi emulating Mangekyou sharingan from Itachi's Tsukiyomi no jutsu.
I agree also they don't call him copy ninja for nothing but I also think he developed the sharigan read the kakashi gaiden he only had 2 tomoes and now he have 3 so I believe he can develope this as well.

[Vetrean]

How? If getting the Mangekyou was as easy as getting teh third tomoe, wouldn't a lot more Uchiha have had it? Huh?

[slashez]

Um, whos to say how easy it is to gain the third tomoe? The only person who we have actually seen go from two to three directly has been sasuke, and hell, that was only when he went through a severely emotional battle and seriously was attempting to kill his best friend. So saying something arbitrary like going from two to three tomoes is a gross speculation. Simply because a lot of uchiha have unlocked it, does not make it a simple thing to obtain.

Also, whos to say that when obito went through his whole past with kakashi and the severe emotional stuff that caused, that he didn't somehow unlock the potential to obtain a hightened ability of the sharingan, that he unfortunately was just unable to develop due to his premature death? Unfortunately, the only direct information we have on new sharingan abilities are what itachi told sasuke, but if you look at the facts reasonably (i.e the fact that sasuke also read the scroll and was determined to gain power, most likely the mangekyou his own way, by not killing naruto, then there is probably more to the sharingan equation) it seems probable that there are multiple ways of unlocking heightened sharingan abilities, thus adding even more to its mystery. Besides, either obito unlocked the ability for the third tomoe for kakashi, and kakashi just developed that, or kakashi did it all on his own, but either way, kakashi already developed his sharingan eye once, why is it so implausible to realize he can do it more?

[Vetrean]

Um, whos to say how easy it is to gain the third tomoe? The only person who we have actually seen go from two to three directly has been sasuke, and hell, that was only when he went through a severely emotional battle and seriously was attempting to kill his best friend. So saying something arbitrary like going from two to three tomoes is a gross speculation. Simply because a lot of uchiha have unlocked it, does not make it a simple thing to obtain.

First off, I'll say that you've ignored my previous posts against yours. Whether you just didn't see it, felt it wasn't worth your time, or had nothing to argue against me with remains to be seen.

Second, if a lot of people have it, that generally means it's relatively easier to obtain than something not a lot of people have. Do you see a lot of people with a fortune like Bill Gates does? No, because it's hard to amass so much money. Do you see a lot of people in the middle-class, with a relatively mediocre amount of money? Yes, because that's easier to obtain.

Also, whos to say that when obito went through his whole past with kakashi and the severe emotional stuff that caused, that he didn't somehow unlock the potential to obtain a hightened ability of the sharingan, that he unfortunately was just unable to develop due to his premature death?

If it was just any emotional event to unlock something like the Mangekyou, Kakashi would've had it a long time ago. If it was any emotional event that unlocked a whole new form of Sharingan, why did the Uchiha clan not just subject themselves to mental torture in order to make themselves more powerful?

Unfortunately, the only direct information we have on new sharingan abilities are what itachi told sasuke, but if you look at the facts reasonably (i.e the fact that sasuke also read the scroll and was determined to gain power, most likely the mangekyou his own way, by not killing naruto, then there is probably more to the sharingan equation) it seems probable that there are multiple ways of unlocking heightened sharingan abilities, thus adding even more to its mystery.

The point being? There can be a gajillion ways to unlock a more powerful form of the Sharingan, but Kakashi does not seem the type to subject himself purposely to extreme mental states for power, or kill someone close to him for the guilt/self-hatred it would cause. He's not totally power-hungry like Sasuke, he's not going to go to any cost for power.

Besides, either obito unlocked the ability for the third tomoe for kakashi, and kakashi just developed that, or kakashi did it all on his own, but either way, kakashi already developed his sharingan eye once, why is it so implausible to realize he can do it more?

How does someone develop something from beyond the grave? Fulfilling the unknown requirements for the third-tomoe isn't a gradual thing. It's not like the third-tomoe would just slowly appear. Besides, assuming that extreme mental states are required for the third-tomoe, it must be so much the harder for the Mangekyou or any heightened form.

It's not implausible that Kakashi developed a new form of Sharingan, because it's obvious that he did. I said so myself. It is implausible that he developed a true Mangekyou, as I also said.

[slashez]

Heh, its funny, you stating in your post that i disregard your posts, but then you do the exact same thing here, i just found that amusing, but anyway.

First off, I'll say that you've ignored my previous posts against yours. Whether you just didn't see it, felt it wasn't worth your time, or had nothing to argue against me with remains to be seen.

Second, if a lot of people have it, that generally means it's relatively easier to obtain than something not a lot of people have. Do you see a lot of people with a fortune like Bill Gates does? No, because it's hard to amass so much money. Do you see a lot of people in the middle-class, with a relatively mediocre amount of money? Yes, because that's easier to obtain.


Actually if I am remembering correctly, we have only seen 6 uchiha (7 total if you count kakashi and his sharingan, and yes i know he is not uchiha) people with a three tomoe sharingan (they would be sasuke, itachi, their father, and the 3 policemen who confronted itachi about shisui), so 6 (maybe 7 depending on kakashi) people out of an entire large very respected noble clan may be interpreted by different people as a relatively large or maybe small number, so i can chalk this one up to being debatable, still in my eyes, getting three tomoes doesn't seem like its a wake up, oh hey sweet, i have another tomoe (as you would suggest it is that simple)


If it was just any emotional event to unlock something like the Mangekyou, Kakashi would've had it a long time ago. If it was any emotional event that unlocked a whole new form of Sharingan, why did the Uchiha clan not just subject themselves to mental torture in order to make themselves more powerful?


i believe you answered your own question here, you know, submitting yourself to mental torture just to be stronger is probably not something most ninja would want to do, after all, the word you used very aptly to describe the situation, TORTURE, suggests jsut that. You make it seem like mental torture and extreme anguish are something people do daily or weekly, and would be willing to do at the drop of a hat if it means power. Well not all people are driven solely by the desire for power, so it seems reasonable that a lot of people, even knowing how to obtain power, would be hesitant if extreme mental TORTURE were the price.


The point being? There can be a gajillion ways to unlock a more powerful form of the Sharingan, but Kakashi does not seem the type to subject himself purposely to extreme mental states for power, or kill someone close to him for the guilt/self-hatred it would cause. He's not totally power-hungry like Sasuke, he's not going to go to any cost for power.


Kakashi of all people doesn't seem the type to subject himself to extreme mental states? How about the fact that every single morning of every single day Kakashi revisits the grave memorial of ninja's lost fighting (he says this in the funeral episode for the third) which has lots of his friends on there including Obito, and thus reliving all of those tragedies of theirs and especially Obito's death and his gift to Kakashi a form of mental and extreme state? Not to mention the fact that he most likely recalls it every time he reveals his sharingan eye (which is probably why he covers it unless he needs it, but thats an entire separate idea) I would most deffinitely consider that a basic deffinition of an extreme mental state.


How does someone develop something from beyond the grave? Fulfilling the unknown requirements for the third-tomoe isn't a gradual thing. It's not like the third-tomoe would just slowly appear. Besides, assuming that extreme mental states are required for the third-tomoe, it must be so much the harder for the Mangekyou or any heightened form.


I did not say Obito unlocked more aspects of the sharingan from beyond the grave, all i did was speculate taht Obito unlocked the POTENTIAL for developing the sharingan as a result of his traumatic death and the whole eye thing with kakashi, but obito did not DEVELOP the new forms of the sharingan because OBITO died early. However it is clear and obvious that kakashi did in fact DEVELOP heightened forms of sharingan entirely on his own. And btw, i never said kakashi developed mangekyou, all i said was he developed heightened sharingan powers on his own. Follow your own advice (refer to top)

[MS81]

I think kakashi got an undeveloped Mangekyousharigan. that's all everyone so emotional on this chat forum.

[chibbi-kitsune]

I still do not understand why everyone is so hell-bent on Kakashi not having the Magekyou. Yes he is not Uchiha but he does have the sharingan and therefore most of its potential. Did anyone think that maybe Itachi doesn't know everything and Kakashi proved him wrong. I don't believe every Uchiha who ever achieved Mangekyou has had the same jutsu. If Sasuke gets it and only has the jutsu Itachi has then that would be very boring and unoriginal. They all probably have the potential for other Mangekyou techniques since Kakashi created his own that he can only activate with his MANGEKYOU SHARINGAN!!!:yell

[slashez]

I still do not understand why everyone is so hell-bent on Kakashi not having the Magekyou. Yes he is not Uchiha but he does have the sharingan and therefore most of its potential. Did anyone think that maybe Itachi doesn't know everything and Kakashi proved him wrong. I don't believe every Uchiha who ever achieved Mangekyou has had the same jutsu. If Sasuke gets it and only has the jutsu Itachi has then that would be very boring and unoriginal. They all probably have the potential for other Mangekyou techniques since Kakashi created his own that he can only activate with his MANGEKYOU SHARINGAN!!!:yell

b/c for whatever reason people seem to enjoy coming up with insane illogical theories that make their favorite characters into unrivaled gods (a lot of those revolve around itachi unfortunately. Not to say he isnt cool and badass, but it seems some people want him to basically be a god)

[chibbi-kitsune]

b/c for whatever reason people seem to enjoy coming up with insane illogical theories that make their favorite characters into unrivaled gods (a lot of those revolve around itachi unfortunately. Not to say he isnt cool and badass, but it seems some people want him to basically be a god)

Well thats a shame. I am an Itachi fan but even I realize that character like him is going to eventually get his ass handed to him by somebody more bad ass.:cry

[Chamcham Trigger]

Well thats a shame. I am an Itachi fan but even I realize that character like him is going to eventually get his ass handed to him by somebody more bad ass.:cry
Well I'm sure he'll lose, but I don't think he's gonna get his ass handed to him, nor do I think the person will be more badass than him as well. I could be wrong though.

I see him dying in a good fight, against either a team of people, or someone like Naruto or Sasuke by themselves.

[chibbi-kitsune]

Well I'm sure he'll lose, but I don't think he's gonna get his ass handed to him, nor do I think the person will be more badass than him as well. I could be wrong though.

I see him dying in a good fight, against either a team of people, or someone like Naruto or Sasuke by themselves.

True hopefully the fight will be well done like the Sasori fight. S..a..s..o..r..iiiiiiiiii I miss him so much:cry :arg :yell

[Vetrean]

Heh, its funny, you stating in your post that i disregard your posts, but then you do the exact same thing here, i just found that amusing, but anyway.

Disregard? I assure you it was not on purpose, so I'll go back and check and see which of your posts has a point that I either disagree with or feel is slightly wrong.



Actually if I am remembering correctly, we have only seen 6 uchiha (7 total if you count kakashi and his sharingan, and yes i know he is not uchiha) people with a three tomoe sharingan (they would be sasuke, itachi, their father, and the 3 policemen who confronted itachi about shisui), so 6 (maybe 7 depending on kakashi) people out of an entire large very respected noble clan may be interpreted by different people as a relatively large or maybe small number, so i can chalk this one up to being debatable, still in my eyes, getting three tomoes doesn't seem like its a wake up, oh hey sweet, i have another tomoe (as you would suggest it is that simple)

HOw many Uchihas have we seen in a combat situation, or faced with a threat? I ask you that. Obviously, getting the third tomoe wouldn't be quite that easy, but it would be RELATIVELY easier to get than the Mangekyou. As I said before, like seeing a lot of middle-class people compared to Bill Gates. It's not exactly easy just to hang in the middle-class even, but it's very easy compared to getting a fortune like Bill Gates has.



i believe you answered your own question here, you know, submitting yourself to mental torture just to be stronger is probably not something most ninja would want to do, after all, the word you used very aptly to describe the situation, TORTURE, suggests jsut that. You make it seem like mental torture and extreme anguish are something people do daily or weekly, and would be willing to do at the drop of a hat if it means power. Well not all people are driven solely by the desire for power, so it seems reasonable that a lot of people, even knowing how to obtain power, would be hesitant if extreme mental TORTURE were the price.

The Uchihas seem to value power above all. Itachi killed his best friend for it, Sasuke planned to. COnsidering all the power that the Mangekyou granted you(almost insta-death genjutsu, command of the Amaterasu, and probably at least one more jutsu), a little mental torture would be a small price to pay, no? If you had the potential to take over a village, all for a little daily mental torture, wouldn't you do it, especially considering how controlling the Uchihas seemed to be?



Kakashi of all people doesn't seem the type to subject himself to extreme mental states? How about the fact that every single morning of every single day Kakashi revisits the grave memorial of ninja's lost fighting (he says this in the funeral episode for the third) which has lots of his friends on there including Obito, and thus reliving all of those tragedies of theirs and especially Obito's death and his gift to Kakashi a form of mental and extreme state?

Memories dull with time. What Kakashi does isn't to gain power, it's to honor the memory of the dead. Besides, if this was an extreme enough mental state, wouldn't he have already developed the Mangekyou SHaringan back when he fought ITachi, or Zabuza?

Not to mention the fact that he most likely recalls it every time he reveals his sharingan eye (which is probably why he covers it unless he needs it, but thats an entire separate idea) I would most deffinitely consider that a basic deffinition of an extreme mental state.

Read above. And chakra exhaustion is the reason he keeps it covered; it takes an exponentially larger amount of chakra to keep his Sharingan maintained, since he's not of the Uchiha(I don't really get that, but all signs point to it).



I did not say Obito unlocked more aspects of the sharingan from beyond the grave, all i did was speculate taht Obito unlocked the POTENTIAL for developing the sharingan as a result of his traumatic death and the whole eye thing with kakashi, but obito did not DEVELOP the new forms of the sharingan because OBITO died early.

You always have the potential for more when you have a bloodline. Everyone with the bloodline has potential for the strongest form of it. What matters is whether you unlock it or not. Ie: Sasuke doesn't fulfill a certain condition to unlock the potential for the third tomoe, he unlocks it. Get it? ANd developing a new Sharingan is a whole new thing entirely.

However it is clear and obvious that kakashi did in fact DEVELOP heightened forms of sharingan entirely on his own. And btw, i never said kakashi developed mangekyou, all i said was he developed heightened sharingan powers on his own. Follow your own advice (refer to top)

Hm. That may have been someone else who said he had created his own Mangekyou. I agree that it is clear and obvious that he has heightened Sharingan powers. What I do not believe is that it's actually tied to the Uchiha. I think Kakashi probably just experimented with a few jutsus on the eye, to see if he could create a new form of Sharingan. After succeeding, he had no guidelines to go by, so likened it to Itachi's Mangekyou. Therefore, he calls his eye the Mangekyou Sharingan.

EDIT: Btw, about the 'unrivaled gods' comment, the theory isn't about Itachi being a god, it's about the tomoe's and the Mangekyou symbolizing the gods.

I can see how it may have looked to you, however.

[slashez]

I disagree that the uchiha's value power above all. After all, their clan reputation and strength was built upon a business and lifestyle of maintaining peace and order in konoha, and stopping those who try to disrupt that balance (since they are the policemen, and work with anbu). Saying they are a clan who thrive on power, is in my opinion a false estimate based on two members of the clan (itachi and sasuke), but who knows, perhaps their plans also have some ultimate unrealized goal (unrealized by us that is) to maintain some kind of balance of power throughout the countries (like with akatsuki, but this is merely complete speculation, nor do i really believe this to be true) But in the end, i dont believe it is accurate saying the entire clan is power hungry based on the actions of two brothers, where Itaci's actions is the only catalyst and reason for sasuke to have become power hungry.

Memories do dull over time, but i disagree with that idea when it is someone who relives the memories on a daily basis. To me that implies that kakashi has those memories engrained in him so deeply, that they are as strong as when he actually had them happen. As far as his eye cover thing, it is pure speculation, but i also figure he has to be able to turn his sharingan off, otherwise, why would it not constantly drain his body, simply cause he covers it

[Vetrean]

I disagree that the uchiha's value power above all. After all, their clan reputation and strength was built upon a business and lifestyle of maintaining peace and order in konoha, and stopping those who try to disrupt that balance (since they are the policemen, and work with anbu).

I never said Uchiha's value power above all. But from what I've seen in the manga and anime, they do seem very controlling. Being in a police position would mean they have some modicum of power over the citizens and shinobi of Konoha, and becoming powerful enough to rule Konoha certainly fits in with that. I don't believe they wished to turn Konoha into a monarchy with an Uchiha ruling clan, but it's highly possible they wanted a higher position.

Saying they are a clan who thrive on power, is in my opinion a false estimate based on two members of the clan (itachi and sasuke),

Well, they probably do. I can't remember if this is false or not, but it seemed they wanted to spread the fame and reputation of the Uchiha clan. If this were true, they would be thriving off the fear and respect that their power brought.

but who knows, perhaps their plans also have some ultimate unrealized goal (unrealized by us that is) to maintain some kind of balance of power throughout the countries (like with akatsuki, but this is merely complete speculation, nor do i really believe this to be true)

Not sure what to make of this except the hidden plan(which I agree with).

But in the end, i dont believe it is accurate saying the entire clan is power hungry based on the actions of two brothers, where Itaci's actions is the only catalyst and reason for sasuke to have become power hungry.

Think of it this way. You have your family murdered. WOuld you be clamoring for revenge at the cost of anything? Think about that for a mo'.

No, right? Wanting revenge is perfectly normal; not revenge at the cost of anything. Sasuke still has the respect of the name of Uchiha, he has the entire Uchiha compound, a bright future in Konoha, etc. He's got a lot to lose, and he throws it all away for revenge. Personally, I don't think that's normal.

Memories do dull over time, but i disagree with that idea when it is someone who relives the memories on a daily basis. To me that implies that kakashi has those memories engrained in him so deeply, that they are as strong as when he actually had them happen.

I doubt that it would be as strong, but it's probably not as faded as most memories.

As far as his eye cover thing, it is pure speculation, but i also figure he has to be able to turn his sharingan off, otherwise, why would it not constantly drain his body, simply cause he covers it

I'd think it's because he's not an Uchiha, therefore cannot switch it between a normal eye and a Sharingan. Obviously, he can develop it through jutsus and experience, but Obito gave it to him as Sharingan, and it's possible there's something in the Uchiha blood/Uchiha chakra that allows them to switch it on/off.

That's speculation, really, but has Kakashi ever had his Sharingan off? If he closes his eye, the Sharingan would sort of be off, but have we ever seen a normal left eye from him, apart from Kakashi Gaiden? Wouldn't it make more sense to open his normal eye and turn it into Sharingan after he takes off his headband, to conserve a little bit of chakra?

[AbaraiRenji]

Awesome theory!!! not much more I can say on the matter.

[MS81]

chibi kitsune said:I still do not understand why everyone is so hell-bent on Kakashi not having the Magekyou. Yes he is not Uchiha but he does have the sharingan and therefore most of its potential. Did anyone think that maybe Itachi doesn't know everything and Kakashi proved him wrong. I don't believe every Uchiha who ever achieved Mangekyou has had the same jutsu. If Sasuke gets it and only has the jutsu Itachi has then that would be very boring and unoriginal. They all probably have the potential for other Mangekyou techniques since Kakashi created his own that he can only activate with his MANGEKYOU SHARINGAN!!!
I agree with you I don't know why ppl act like he can't achieve it like he did everything else.

[Vetrean]

@ mangekyou: Just because you can achieve one thing does not mean you can achieve another. Obviously, Kakashi has a heightened Sharingan; what I do not believe is that it's the Mangekyou, or even a true form of the Mangekyou, merely a form of the Sharingan he created through experimentation, and lacking a better name or measuring stick for it's power, called the Mangekyou.

I don't know why some of you people act like this is more implausible than Kakashi somehow finding a way to get the Mangekyou that's all cut and dried and non-bloody. Bah.

[chibbi-kitsune]

@ mangekyou: Just because you can achieve one thing does not mean you can achieve another. Obviously, Kakashi has a heightened Sharingan; what I do not believe is that it's the Mangekyou, or even a true form of the Mangekyou, merely a form of the Sharingan he created through experimentation, and lacking a better name or measuring stick for it's power, called the Mangekyou.

I don't know why some of you people act like this is more implausible than Kakashi somehow finding a way to get the Mangekyou that's all cut and dried and non-bloody. Bah.

There is really no reason for you to believe that Kakashi Mangekyou is fake. There has been no mention of any other Sharingan but Mangekyou so please don't make up terms like heightened Sharingan. Kakashi's Sharingan morphs into another shape just like Itachi's and a whole lotta whoop ass follows just like Itachi. If you don't like him thats fine, if you think Kakashi having it ruins the uchihas originality thats fine, but until the manga says its fake Kakashi has the real deal. :wink

[Vetrean]

There is really no reason for you to believe that Kakashi Mangekyou is fake.[QUOTE]

Did I say that? I merely stated that I believed that Kakashi believed his eye was the Mangekyou. That doesn't imply that it is fake, really.

There has been no mention of any other Sharingan but Mangekyou so please don't make up terms like heightened Sharingan.

Then what's the Mangekyou, if not a heightened Sharingan? And just because there hasn't been a mention of something does not mean that it is not there. Have we mentioned more than the Shiki Fuujin, summoning Enma, the Karyuu Endan, Karyuudan, and a few others for Sandaime? No. But that doesn't mean that's all he has.

Kakashi's Sharingan morphs into another shape just like Itachi's and a whole lotta whoop ass follows just like Itachi. If you don't like him thats fine, if you think Kakashi having it ruins the uchihas originality thats fine, but until the manga says its fake Kakashi has the real deal. :wink

By that logic, I can say that Lee opens the gates and releases power just like Kyuubi Naruto, and a whole lotta whoop-ass follows just like Kyuubi Naruto. According to your logic, Lee would also have a Bijuu.

Btw, this doesn't really apply to you, though it may in the future, but...:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/chu_13th_fighter/pwn3d/hitlerpwnt.jpg

[slashez]

[

By that logic, I can say that Lee opens the gates and releases power just like Kyuubi Naruto, and a whole lotta whoop-ass follows just like Kyuubi Naruto. According to your logic, Lee would also have a Bijuu.



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/chu_13th_fighter/pwn3d/hitlerpwnt.jpg

Uh first off, care to rethink what you just stated there? Rofl you do realize that youre making an attempt to argue against what the manga says. All he was saying that, since the manga called it mangekyou, thats what it is. But then you go and try to compare the opening of the gates to a demonic power, and frankly, to be honest i fail to make that link between the two. Gates and bijuu....completely different powers. I dont understand why you would try to argue AGAINST what the manga states (you know the manga, the entire thing you base your factual evidence off of for every statement you make, except for some reason this one). Maybe there's more to the mangekyou than we know :S Perhaps the mangekyou offers a variety of powers, Itachi has some, kakashi maybe has some different ones. But if the manga says something is mangekyou, then perhaps you should take its word on that one.

[Vetrean]

Perhaps I should, but I'd prefer not, as it'd make the Mangekyou simply a slightly more time-consuming and grueling task to gain more power than gaining the actual Sharingan was.

Really. The Mangekyou was supposed to be some big, dark, 00ber-power that only a few people get. And then suddenly, a non-Uchiha with only one Sharingan gets it? Nuh-unh. That's why I argued for Kakashi believing his new Sharingan to be a form of the Mangekyou instead of it being an actual Mangekyou.

Nao, if Kakashi explains how he got it, and it sits by me, that's fine. But until he does, I refuse to believe that his Mangekyou is a true Mangekyou.

Btw, in the Gate/Bijuu reference, I was using chibbi's comparison. New Sharingan turns to whoop-ass, so Kakashi's must be Itachi's because they have the same general effects. So I was just arguing against that.

[slashez]

It seems you have some like obsession with mangekyou sharingan and want it to be the end all be all god of all jutsus in the naruto world.

[Vetrean]

You don't get it, do you? When Kishimoto introduced the Mangekyou, it seemed to be THE king of jutsus, the ultimate prize for Uchihas who suffered tremendous mental trauma. And now? It's merely a tool, another technique just to find and become a staple of battles.

I don't care if the Mangekyou isn't all-powerful. What I don't want it to be is cheapened into just an 00ber move Kakashi pulls all the time.

[slashez]

You don't get it, do you? When Kishimoto introduced the Mangekyou, it seemed to be THE king of jutsus, the ultimate prize for Uchihas who suffered tremendous mental trauma. And now? It's merely a tool, another technique just to find and become a staple of battles.

I don't care if the Mangekyou isn't all-powerful. What I don't want it to be is cheapened into just an 00ber move Kakashi pulls all the time.


Well unless im mistaken you just answered your own question using the perfect wording. You said that mangekyou SEEMED to be the king of all jutsus. Perhaps you were wrong, cause i doubt anyone else considers it the king of all jutsus. Hell, when orochimaru summoned dead hokages, there were probably people who thought that was the king of all jutsus, then when sondaime sealed him away, im sure some people thought that was the king of all jutsus, well guess what, that doesn't make it so. And as i said before, you SEEM to have some weird obsession with mangekyou sharingan and itachi, and i dont get it, nor do i care for you to explain it to me. I highly doubt there is ANY end all be all jutsu, because then it would become a mooch point, and whatever ninja posesses it would literally become unbeatable, since they would have an unbeatable jutsu. And constantly repeating your same argument of how you dont understand how kakashi's could be the same mangekyou sharingan as itachi's does not make for a valid argument. Saying the same things over and over don't make them any more true than the first time youve said them.

[chibbi-kitsune]

You don't get it, do you? When Kishimoto introduced the Mangekyou, it seemed to be THE king of jutsus, the ultimate prize for Uchihas who suffered tremendous mental trauma. And now? It's merely a tool, another technique just to find and become a staple of battles.

I don't care if the Mangekyou isn't all-powerful. What I don't want it to be is cheapened into just an 00ber move Kakashi pulls all the time.

How has Kakashi cheapened it? What it sounds like to me is that you are an uchiha fan that wants your guy to always be on top, but Kakashi has made your guy look bad and you are upset. As for the gates and kyuubi comparison I don't see the connection. I was comparing 2 Mangekyou Sharingans which are related and you are trying to compare to unrelated things. Try again.:P

[CrimsonX]

You don't get it, do you? When Kishimoto introduced the Mangekyou, it seemed to be THE king of jutsus, the ultimate prize for Uchihas who suffered tremendous mental trauma. And now? It's merely a tool, another technique just to find and become a staple of battles.

I don't care if the Mangekyou isn't all-powerful. What I don't want it to be is cheapened into just an 00ber move Kakashi pulls all the time.

cheapen it?? i think kakashi make the Mangekyou seem even stronger, i mean a move that can asorb explosions inot thin air and take out hands by looking at it, its soundless has a super long range.

[Vetrean]

No, I don't care if the Uchiha are on top. I don't care if the Mangekyou itself wasn't even a useful jutsu, if it was just used to clean socks. But when Itachi first introduced it, he said that you needed to kill your best friend for it.

Kakashi obviously did not do so. He's obtained the Mangekyou Sharingan, but along the way, it's been cheapened, not into some prize for those willing to sacrifice anything for power, but as just another jutsu to learn from a scroll and use.

As for the two Mangekyou Sharingan, and I quote, Kakashi's Sharingan morphs into another shape just like Itachi's and a whole lotta whoop ass follows just like Itachi. This was your reasoning for it being a true Mangekyou. However, the Gates and the Kyuubi's chakra are both released in much the same way, and end up granting a huge power boost. By your logic, this should mean Kyuubi = Gates.

[slashez]

Wow....just wow, since when is itachi the ultimate authority on sharingan? Since when is any one character the ultimate authority on ANYTHING. Characters make wrong assessments all the damn time in the show, what makes you believe itachi is right. THINK about it, itachi and sasuke both read that forbidden scroll thing in the temple under the floormat, its HIGHLY probable that it contained information about the mangekyou (probably how itachi found out about it). Sasuke AlSO read it, and after the sasuke and Naruto fight, sasuke looks back after it cuts to naruto and he opens his eyes (meaning sasuke knew that naruto was still alive) afterward (while flashing a picture of itachi on the screen, though i could easily be wrong about this minor minor detail) sasuke says he will gain strength (hence the mangekyou sharingan) in his own way (hence not killing naruto). It makes sense. There are obviously other ways of getting it than killing your best friend.


And the whole gate being similar to demonic power, i dont know what the hell you are talking about cause it makes no sense what so ever. Gates are unlocked using chakra, kyubi is unlocked by naruto asking the damn demon for power, those seem slightly different to me.

[Vetrean]

Kakashi unlocks a Sharingan that looks different than Itachi's Sharingan, and yet that seems not to make a difference.

I was simply using it as a comparison to chibbi's argument. In reality, they are extremely different, but when condensed to their most basic form, they are much the same thing.

As for Itachi not being the authority...I'd assume that he knows more about the Sharingan than any currently living Naruto character. And Sasuke saying he'd obtain power his own way...does it say he would obtain the Mangekyou in his own way? No. It says power. Last I knew, Mangekyou was not synonymous with power.

[slashez]

the way you talk and boast (for whatever reason you do) about itachi and his sharingan, it deffinitely comes off that you consider mangekyou synonymous with power. Hell you yourself said it was in your eyes the king of all the damn jutsus. Now if youre telling me that the king of all jutsu's basically synonymous with power, i would deffinitely call you a hypocrite, most people would tend to agree calling something the king of jutsus, implies to a high degree that it is the most powerful.

[Vetrean]

I never said it was the king of all jutsus, I simply said that from the way Kishimoto introduced it and showed Itachi used it, it seemed to be, a king of jutsus for those who valued power above all. And if I did say in exact words that it was 'the king of jutsus,' then I was wrong. I'm not afraid to admit it.

But until Kakashi gives an explanation, it's been reduced to a mere trinket that anyone with a Sharingan can easily gain. That's what saddens me.

As for Mangekyou being synonymous with power...Mangekyou = power. But it is not a synonym. You can't replace power with Mangekyou in all instances, though in some it would fit. I was simply pointing this out because someone's arguments that there should be multiple ways to gain a pure Mangekyou because Sasuke said, 'I will gain power my own way.'

[MS81]

there should be multiple ways to gain a pure Mangekyou because Sasuke said, 'I will gain power my own way.' I agree with that but because sasuke read the secret uchiha scroll so he knows how to obtain it.

[Vetrean]

...POWER AND MANGEKYOU ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS. They can be interchanged in many instances, but they do not mean the same thing. Power =/= 00berly powerful doujutsu.

[MS81]

they don't mean the same but how else sasuke will defeat Itachi.

[Vetrean]

Ya know, while I believe Itachi is the current reigning expert on the Sharingan(who else is gonna know more?), I do not believe he's an expert on power. The Mangekyou isn't a requirement for beating him, just to cancel out the Tsukuyomi, possibly.

[MS81]

my friend watch eps 129 and see why he would have to get M.sharigan

[Vetrean]

Anime isn't always canon. If you had given me a manga chapter, I'd be more inclined to believe you.

[MS81]

whats the difference the anime has more details than the manga

your point was not logical.

[Vetrean]

My point is that not everything in the anime goes with Kishimoto's approval, while everything in manga does, him having written/drawn it. Example: fillers. They do not actually happen, though in the anime-verse they do.

And just because something has more detail does not mean it's true.

[MS81]

in this case everything did happen if you read the chunnin exams over (manga) and watch the anime you'll see that there is more details in the anime. we already know that to defeat M.sharigan you need the M.sharigan.

[Shidoshi]

Hey, Shidoshi, so when you open the gates to increase muscle power, chakra's a part of it? I had assumed it was that you used chakra to open the gate, but it didn't have another part in it.Yeah, Gai describes the Initial Gate as being the limiter that limits the amount of chakra flowing to the muscles. Releasing the limiters allows you to use 100% of your muscle's power by increasing the amount of chakra in the chakra flow.

Like...going from narrowband dial-up to broadband DSL.

[Vetrean]

in this case everything did happen if you read the chunnin exams over (manga) and watch the anime you'll see that there is more details in the anime. we already know that to defeat M.sharigan you need the M.sharigan.

First off, just because something is more detailed does not mean it is more accurate. Example: I can say that Spot was horribly mangled in a stampede, and someone else can say that Spot was horribly mangled in a stampede of rhinos. But if all we know for sure is that Spot was horribly mangled, that guy is not necessarily right.

The anime is NOT always canon.

Second off, it's Sharingan. Not Sharigan. There's an n. And while I do believe Itachi is the current expert on the Sharingan, that still doesn't mean that he knows everything. Otherwise he would literally be able to beat everyone if only the Mangekyou Sharingan could defeat the Mangekyou Sharingan.

Btw, thanks Shidoshi.

[MS81]

lukannon said:First off, just because something is more detailed does not mean it is more accurate. Example: I can say that Spot was horribly mangled in a stampede, and someone else can say that Spot was horribly mangled in a stampede of rhinos. But if all we know for sure is that Spot was horribly mangled, that guy is not necessarily right.

The anime is NOT always canon.

Second off, it's Sharingan. Not Sharigan. There's an n. And while I do believe Itachi is the current expert on the Sharingan, that still doesn't mean that he knows everything. Otherwise he would literally be able to beat everyone if only the Mangekyou Sharingan could defeat the Mangekyou Sharingan.
I get what you saying but I don't think they would put it in the anime if there wasn't a explanation also about Itachi I get that too but like I said they wouldn't put in the anime. also when the corny fillers stop and the time skip comes on we'll see more details to what happen in fights like sasori and kankoro deidara and gaara deidara and kakashi gai and kisame etc., you dont want those fights to be detailed.

[4ghost]

Its just that those details don't actually translate to an acurate interpretation of Kishimoto's story. For instance the detail of chakra color was added to the anime, of course it was neccessary but it ended up being wrong at least in Naruto's case, changed from yellow to blue, and maybe in Kakashi's case as well with the white chakra.

[Vetrean]

lukannon said: I get what you saying but I don't think they would put it in the anime if there wasn't a explanation also about Itachi I get that too but like I said they wouldn't put in the anime. also when the corny fillers stop and the time skip comes on we'll see more details to what happen in fights like sasori and kankoro deidara and gaara deidara and kakashi gai and kisame etc., you dont want those fights to be detailed.

I don't want those fights to be detailed? Of course I do. But embellishing a fight with details that didn't actually happen simply leads to confusion between manga-readers and anime-only people.

And they have added many things without a real explanation. Chakra color, for instance. Several filler episodes within actual arcs. Besides, as I already said, if the only thing that can really beat the Mangekyou is the Mangekyou, then how can the leader keep Itachi in line? I highly doubt that he has the Mangekyou as well.

[MS81]

lukannon said:And they have added many things without a real explanation. Chakra color, for instance. Several filler episodes within actual arcs. Besides, as I already said, if the only thing that can really beat the Mangekyou is the Mangekyou, then how can the leader keep Itachi in line? I highly doubt that he has the Mangekyou as well.
that's true,but do you think for a second that kakashi M.sharingan ain't real or do you honestly believe that sasuke won't get M.sharingan I was thinking maybe when he goes back to konoha kakashi will teach him his version and it will be perfected by sasuke since he has uchiha blood.
also if I'm not mistaken in one eps it was said chakra is different colors flow thru different characters.

[Vetrean]

Chakra in different colors flows through different characters, but Naruto's chakra is supposed to be yellow, not blue.

And for the other parts, I have already presented my views on it and I don't wish to have to retype them at the moment. Drop me a line later.

[SalemProphet]

Okay, so back to the topic at hand. I haven't really given much thought to how the M.Sharingan works, so this might be no0bish.

If the Amaterasu could teleport objects into another dimension, wouldn't the jutsu Kakashi used be (a form of) Amaterasu, not Tsukuyomi? And as for the black fire, maybe you need to actually be of Uchiha blood to use it (related to mandara?), or quite simply need to have a Fire chakra type. (as i rememberm kakashi said he had lightning type...?)

Like I said before, I don't stress about this stuff so please don't yell. >.<

[Shaidar Haran]

Please no thread necromancy. Thank you. :closed

[Spiral]

^ did i miss something?

[Shaidar Haran]

Look back a page.

[hello25]

izanagi could be the ultimate technique that was born from the EMS.

[frenchmax]

Since I began thinking about it over the past few days, and seeing it discussed about on the forums many times over, I have finally decided to give my prediction on the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Now we know that the Sharingan itself has the ability to see through and copy all Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu’s. Excluding of course Bloodline’s and Jutsu’s that require some type of unique catalyst. It’s something we all know, or should know if you are reading this post.

That was just a bit of background so we were all on the same page.

Anyway, now we get to my awesome prediction, which is awesome because I am Elite.

Mangekyo Sharingan, the dirty bastard that Itachi has shown to us, what it is we aren’t really sure, but it’s possible that it’s another Uchiha Bloodline, or the ‘true’ bloodline. I am sure we will find out later, but until then I will share with you the secret of the TRINITY. We’ve all seen the two skills the M. Sharingan uses, and that is Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi. Both of these are names from Japanese Mythology and both are very powerful techniques; however this is where it gets a bit interesting.

Tsukuyomi – A very high level genjutsu that has the ability to kill a person by destroying their will.

Amaterasu – A high level fire ability, one so high that it can burn through things that were previously thought invulnerable to fire (That toads stomach).

This is where it gets interesting. Like I said before, that cool word the ‘Trinity’ well there weren’t just two gods, there are three of them. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoou, I told you it would get interesting, didn’t I? The Trinity seems to be a deeply rooted part of Japanese mythology and religion, and in fact a symbol of the Trinity is the “Mitsu” or “Triple Tomoe” those tear shaped things we see in the Sharingan. Now remember what we know about the Sharingan? It’s abilities to copy the Nin, Gen, and Tai –jutsu.

Well, we have:

The Ninjutsu Amaterasu, a high level fire Jutsu named after the Goddess of the Sun who reigns over the heavens.

The Genjutsu Tsukuyomi, a high level illusion Genjutsu that is used as a hellish torture, and is surprisingly named after the God who rules the Underworld.

What are we missing; yes we are missing the Taijustu, which I believe will be named Susanoou after the rampaging war god. Whether it will be a technique or style I am not sure of, but what ever it is will be a very powerful and frightening technique. It appears that the Sharingan not only has the ability to copy all these types of Jutsu’s, but itself has three ‘ultimate’ Jutsu’s that could possibly be unrivaled in power. Of course that’s just a guess, I was only trying to tell you what I think might be the other power of the Sharingan might be.

You know what would suck, if someone already mentioned this when I wasn’t around and I made this post for no reason.

Extra: In a discussion I had with FU, it occured to me that the three Sharingan users might represent the Gods of the techniques that the Mangekyou Sharingan uses.

1st User - Amaterasu
2nd User - Tsukuyomi
3rd User - Susanou

I believe that Itachi is Tsukuyomi, mainly because he's a guy and it was the first technique he used. Also, the night that the Uchiha dies, you see Itachi on that pole sitting in front of the moon- and Kishimoto is known for tossing things in like that. If I am right, then the first Mangekyou user will be a female, representing Amaterasu.

That's about it.

>.>

since you are elite, just wanted to say it' s MangekyoU and susanoo

[Hustler]

posted before but nice work :amuse

[PisOgPapir]

since you are elite, just wanted to say it' s MangekyoU and susanoo

Lol at necro.

And it is mangekyo i believe.

[Shaidar Haran]

Lol at necro.

And it is mangekyo i believe.Strictly speaking, it is Mangekyō. However, this can be written as Mangekyou for the sound or Mangekyo for the directness.

[neji32]

no ones actually put all the detail in it like how you said "The Trinity seems to be a deeply rooted part of Japanese mythology and religion, and in fact a symbol of the Trinity is the “Mitsu” or “Triple Tomoe” those tear shaped things we see in the Sharingan"
thats not anything ive read from anyone

[DeathBells]

And who's going to be Amaterasu? Amaterasu is a goddess right? So.. Madara is a female? :LOS

[Evil]

since you are elite, just wanted to say it' s MangekyoU and susanoo

Pfft, when I wrote this Theory, people called it "Mange Sharingan", and they didn't even know that Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were techniques, instead the only translation at the time was "I must rest until "Tsukuyomi" becomes "Amaterasu"" which people thought meant Itachi needed a day to rest.

Besides I spelled it properly to begin with, and Susanou is just as good as Susanoo.

[secludedly]

This has already been posted by somebody else. Though that person said that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were born from the left and right eye and Susanou was born from the nose. That person also said that it could very well be that there is no 3rd attack, because it was born from the nose and not from the eyes. Easy as that.

I forgot who the person was who posted that though, rep to him.


That was me lol. Well, before a very nice Moderator had to cap it as a "Prediction" post due to spoilers, which actually was very reasonable, but I think it caused a lot less people to read it.

WHERE'S MY REP NOW? Lol. Just kidding.

But, you are right. In the myth, it states that Izunagi rose from hell after failing to save his lover, and he had to cleanse himself of the evil, therefore, used a river that was made pure to cleanse himself. The cleansing of his left eye created the Goddess Tsukiyomi, the cleansing of the right created the God Amaterasu, and the nose sprouted the God Susanoo. Izunagi then supposidly died, or just simply 'rose' to heaven/high plains and became a member of the heavenly Council. Izunagi then found a bridge that gapped from heaven to Earth, and used it for travel, which is what I think Madara did/is and makes me think Madara is simply interconnected on both plains, which is why attacks go through him.

Then again, it's also said the Kusanagi can defeat Susanoo's blade, but, well... that simply was reversed by Kishimoto in the Manga. Kishimoto has a habit of including Mythology as we all know, but he is also known to change it around a lot from it's original properties, recreating to fit so-to-say.

[secludedly]

izanagi could be the ultimate technique that was born from the EMS.


That's not too bad of a theiry actually, but I think of Izunagi as a representation of an actual character. Like I stated to someone else, it states that Izunagi rose from hell after failing to save his lover, and he had to cleanse himself of the evil, therefore, used a river that was made pure to cleanse himself. The cleansing of his left eye created the Goddess Tsukiyomi, the cleansing of the right created the God Amaterasu, and the nose sprouted the God Susanoo. Izunagi then supposidly died, or just simply 'rose' to heaven/high plains and became a member of the heavenly Council. Izunagi then found a bridge that gapped from heaven to Earth, and used it for travel, which is what I think Madara did/is and makes me think Madara is simply interconnected on both plains, which is why attacks go through him.

[secludedly]

Woops. got God and Goddess mixed up accidently.

[Hippie]

Woah dude Your a mother fucking genius!
Nice that you got it right

[Ephemere]

I love how they basically made Itachi an old representation of god xD

I knew it was coming, and yeah this is a really good theory, but I dont think that we are really going to have many more mangyeko users since the candidates for it are all.....umm.....dead