Goku vs. The Flash

[Dark Evangel]

I've always want to see this fight. Who shall win?

[Newzfoxjr]

o_O

I don't know much about The Flash, but eh. Dragonball Z was the first Anime I ever watched, so Goku.

[Seany]

I'm certain that Goku would win.

[Endless Mike]

Flash just steals his speed and it's over.

[Samurai Man]

i think goku takes this one

[Renegade]

Well I don't know much about the flash other than from what I saw from the Justice league unlimited show... So i'm not really sure, but for a wild guess, i'd say goku.

[Endless Mike]

You people are voting when you nothing about what you are up against.

Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.

[Renegade]

You people are voting when you nothing about what you are up against.

Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.
Then i'd say the Flash wins :)

[escamoh]

Depends on which version of Flash I guess...

I watch JLA on CN so that's really the only Flash I have to go by so I'd say Goku.

But other versions of Flash like Endless Mike said would pretty much own Goku.

[Hangatýr]

Use KC Flash.

[Gunners]

Flash just steals his speed and it's over.

Doesn't he have to touch Goku though?

Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.

No he can not move a trillion times the speed of light, from what i have seen he can reach just light speed then he will enter the speed force.

For this match i am somewhat split, Goku has what it takes to beat the flash, people with less abilities have beaten flash, so i could see goku winning this match, he would have to play it smart but goku is a pretty smart fighter so i will give this to goku.

[Phenomenol]

You people are voting when you nothing about what you are up against.

Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.

And this means nothing because Goku blood lusted can use his Shunkan Idou (Instant Transmission) AS his Natural Speed! Goku wins easily.:notrust

[Hangatýr]

And this means nothing because Goku blood lusted can use his Shunkan Idou (Instant Transmission) AS his Natural Speed! Goku wins easily.:notrust
Ha.

Hahahahahahahahahaha. :lmao

[Endless Mike]

Teleportation is not speed.

It is just instant movement from one spot to another.

You can't change directions mid - teleport, and have to spend a few seconds to lock onto a signal first.

And yes, Flash has to touch Goku to steal his speed, although I don't see how that will be a problem considering how much faster he is.

[Delta Shell]

Trillions?


Really? Trillions? I don't mean some uber high end powered up showing (or KC flash) either I mean regular Flash, the one that evacuated a city in less than a second (seems "regular" enough) Flash. I mean that's probably light speed right there (or more) but trillions?

[Dark Evangel]

The Flash is way above Superman's speed.

[Endless Mike]

Trillions?


Really? Trillions? I don't mean some uber high end powered up showing (or KC flash) either I mean regular Flash, the one that evacuated a city in less than a second (seems "regular" enough) Flash. I mean that's probably light speed right there (or more) but trillions?

He evacuated the city in 0.00001 microseconds, and took over 500,000 people all 35 miles away.

That's trillions of times the speed of light.

[ydraliskos]

He evacuated the city in 0.00001 microseconds, and took over 500,000 people all 35 miles away.

That's trillions of times the speed of light.

I wish you'd just win the debate using just ftl speed and leave it there. Still beats Goku =/

Making scientific calculations on pseudo-scientific stupid comic power excuses is just doh :p dunno.

[Endless Mike]

So you're saying that in comic books, speed doesnt equal distance/time?

That's common sense.

[Keollyn]

One thing's for certain... Flash is DEFINITELY faster than Shunkan Ido. While Kakarotto's thinking of doing it, Flash would have already done his dirt.

[Delta Shell]

It took 0.00001 microseconds?

Edit: Just read the issue, yes they it was that many microseconds however it was stated on the same page that the people were carried there at a hairs breadth from Light Speed. NOT trillions of times which is ridiculous.

[Endless Mike]

According to the scan I saw, yeah.

[Gunners]

And yes, Flash has to touch Goku to steal his speed, although I don't see how that will be a problem considering how much faster he is.

Well he could touch Goku i don't see it happening though, i have to check the manga but i always though when a guy charged up Ki it became difficult for the things around to move, that or he could just create a somewhat ki barrier.

He evacuated the city in 0.00001 microseconds, and took over 500,000 people all 35 miles away.

That's trillions of times the speed of light.

People are so quick to point this sort of shit out for dbz, ( tao throwing the piller) or Kamehameha reaching moon in a couple of seconds. Yet they fail to reach it now.

I don't think the Flash would win, i have seen him loose to lesser characters, Goku is a smart character, and he has ability to sort of sense what has happened so he can base his movements on what will happen, so he can dodge in time, he could just release his ki in a high burst to knock the flash down and then kill him.

[Delta Shell]

According to the scan I saw, yeah.

Read the whole page Endless Mike, although it says the thing about micro seconds it also says something else very important. (I've edited my post above btw)

It's stated on the same page that the people were carried at close to light speed. Then the same thing is stated on the very next page. Near light speed travel. I'll post the scans again if you want.

Yeah, people often have a bias when throwing out certain facts from one situation but allow it for their own (note, I am not saying Mike is guilty of this) but i've seen it so many boards where they are so willing to use one piece of nonsensical evidence to forward their argument, it's infuriating.

The worst was that Maestro crap.

[Endless Mike]

How will any of that do any good when he is beaten before the neurons in his brain can even fire to tell him to do anything?

And the Flash can pass straight through solid matter and energy, so no kind of ki barrier will help.

Not to mention that that kind of thing is rarely seen in the show anyway and is rarely the default response to an attack, and is never used as a first move.

[Delta Shell]

Akk stop posting so fast!! My posts are being missed.

[Endless Mike]

Read the whole page Endless Mike, although it says the thing about micro seconds it also says something else very important. (I've edited my post above btw)

It's stated on the same page that the people were carried at close to light speed. Then the same thing is stated on the very next page. Near light speed travel. I'll post the scans again if you want.

Yeah, people often have a bias when throwing out certain facts from one situation but allow it for their own (note, I am not saying Mike is guilty of this) but i've seen it so many boards where they are so willing to use one piece of nonsensical evidence to forward their argument, it's infuriating.

The worst was that Maestro crap.

Yeah, I know it said that, but the facts of the matter prove that that quote was wrong. The author just didn't do his math.

It equates to much faster than lightspeed.

[Delta Shell]

No the author clearly defined Flash's speed.

His maths might be terrible but he clearly said it was near light speed. You cannot refute that becuase maths says so. The author says Flash = Near light NOT trillions, author intent should take president.

Frankly it's silly to argue against something the author stated twice because his maths was off.

[Endless Mike]

So you're saying that what is said to have happened is more important than what actually happened?

[Phenomenol]

Teleportation is not speed.

It is just instant movement from one spot to another.

You can't change directions mid - teleport, and have to spend a few seconds to lock onto a signal first.

And yes, Flash has to touch Goku to steal his speed, although I don't see how that will be a problem considering how much faster he is.

Your chatting Garbage. Instant transmisiion Transcends space and time.

Oh and about Goku locking on and taking a few seconds...

http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=19595&fname=Goku

Oh yeah look at the few seconds:notrust

Flash dies before he moves.

[Delta Shell]

So you're saying that what is said to have happened is more important than what actually happened?

Only it's not what is "said" to have happened. It is what happened. The author didn't get a random bystander to say "Ooh he must have been going light speed" no, the author said it himself. Twice. It should not be disputed. Not because his maths is bad.

Comic book physics and maths are always bad you can't be so pedantic.

Tell me this. If the quote about Flash being near C can be "wrong" as you put it, what's to say the quote about the "distance of 35km" or the quote about "0.00001 microseconds" aren't wrong? Stop over analysing. Sometimes you've got to accept it for what it is, a comic book.

[Endless Mike]

Just because the narration says something happened doesn't mean it actually did.

If a panel showed a planet completely unharmed and the narration said that the planet exploded (and there was nothing to justify this later like an illusion or anything) then the narration was simply wrong.

The author may not have realized what the actual speed required for the feat was, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If there was some way to rationalize the discrepancy and come up with a reasonable explanation for how the statement of his speed could have been right, then I would agree with you.

But there's not.

No matter which way you look at it, that feat and the speed that was stated for it to happen will NEVER be compatible. There is no way for him to have done that at only c or near c. The mere fact that it happened is disproof of the author's statement.

Sometimes when you write things, the events can have consequences you never anticipated. But that doesn't mean those consequences are wrong.

If I built a machine that was supposed to act as a power generator, but it also produced deadly radiation, would that mean that the radiation was never produced because I didn't intend for that to happen? Of course not.

[Delta Shell]

Ahaha, dude are you kidding me?

Tell me this. If the quote about Flash being near C can be "wrong" as you put it, what's to say the quote about the "distance of 35km" or the quote about "0.00001 microseconds" aren't wrong? Stop over analysing. If you want to take to stance of the quote being wrong someone could easily call the "stats" wrong too, where does that get you?

Sometimes you've got to accept it for what it is, a comic book. This isn't real life where you've built a radiation machine, it's a piece of entertainment unhinged from reality. The dude that wrote the comic said near light speed, that's generally accepted to be in Flash's ballpark (ok he can go a lot faster) but trillions is ridiculous.

[Endless Mike]

Your chatting Garbage. Instant transmisiion Transcends space and time.

Oh and about Goku locking on and taking a few seconds...

http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=19595&fname=Goku

Oh yeah look at the few seconds:notrust

Flash dies before he moves.

You're ignoring the previous pages, where Goku started powering up and everyone was making a big deal of how he would destroy the planet if he fired. He obviously had his plan in mind then, did you ever think he might have been locking on then?

Teleportation means nothing if you can't react fast enough to use it.

Say Goku tries to teleport to where Flash is, but by the time he does, Flash is already somewhere else, since it took Goku too long to even think about teleporting.

[Endless Mike]

Ahaha, dude are you kidding me?

Tell me this. If the quote about Flash being near C can be "wrong" as you put it, what's to say the quote about the "distance of 35km" or the quote about "0.00001 microseconds" aren't wrong? Stop over analysing. Sometimes you've got to accept it for what it is, a comic book.

Fine, I'll humor you.

If he was travelling at the speed of light, then to take 532,000 people 35 kilometers (including all the return trips to go back and get more people), then it would take him about 3 minutes and 20 seconds to evacuate the whole city.

It obviously happened faster than that.

[Delta Shell]

So what if it wasn't 35km?

[Scorpio3.14]

When Flash run's just barely slower then the speed of light he actually skims across the time barrier allowing him to theoretically go at infinite speed (speed = distance / time, Flash can control the time part of that equation).

Its a rarely used feature of the Flash, but he can and has traveled through time under his own power by getting infinitely close to the speed of light.

[Kuya]

Justice League version of the Flash loses. And, remember when Superman and Flash were in that race against eachother around the world? i think Goku is faster. P.S. all Goku needs to do is stay in air.

[Delta Shell]

When Flash run's just barely slower then the speed of light he actually skims across the time barrier allowing him to theoretically go at infinite speed (speed = distance / time, Flash can control the time part of that equation).

Its a rarely used feature of the Flash, but he can and has traveled through time under his own power by getting infinitely close to the speed of light.

Yeah, that can work. Thank you. Not trillions of times the speed of light and not being ridiculous and disregarding a plain solid statement because of comic book calculations.

[Endless Mike]

So what if it wasn't 35km?

Heck. Why not just say the pictures are wrong too.

Because that's a relatively safe radius from a nuclear explosion?

We could shorten the distance to 10 kilometers and lengthen the time to 1 second and he would still be moving over 57 times lightspeed.

[Endless Mike]

When Flash run's just barely slower then the speed of light he actually skims across the time barrier allowing him to theoretically go at infinite speed (speed = distance / time, Flash can control the time part of that equation).

Its a rarely used feature of the Flash, but he can and has traveled through time under his own power by getting infinitely close to the speed of light.

That is a possible explanation.

However, that just makes things worse for Goku.

[Endless Mike]

Justice League version of the Flash loses. And, remember when Superman and Flash were in that race against eachother around the world? i think Goku is faster. P.S. all Goku needs to do is stay in air.

DCAU is non - canon!

Obviously we are using the comics.

And Goku won't even be able to get into the air before he is defeated.

Even if he can, Flash can just jump up and hit him.

[Phenomenol]

You're ignoring the previous pages, where Goku started powering up and everyone was making a big deal of how he would destroy the planet if he fired. He obviously had his plan in mind then, did you ever think he might have been locking on then?

The previous pages just shows him powering up the Kamehameha not locking on.

Teleportation means nothing if you can't react fast enough to use it.

Instant is Instant Flash won't react to that.

Say Goku tries to teleport to where Flash is, but by the time he does, Flash is already somewhere else, since it took Goku too long to even think about teleporting.

No Flash is not going to know where Goku is, Hell Flash can't even fight Gorillas without getting hit.

Instant Transmission >>>>>>>>> Flash Period!

[Gunners]

How will any of that do any good when he is beaten before the neurons in his brain can even fire to tell him to do anything?

And the Flash can pass straight through solid matter and energy, so no kind of ki barrier will help.

Not to mention that that kind of thing is rarely seen in the show anyway and is rarely the default response to an attack, and is never used as a first move.

But ki is a mixture of spirit, anyway he could pass through it, i don't think he would. Though it isn't used in the show against the flash he has the option of opening in that manner.

Even if he charges up ( i need to check on this) people around somewhat freeze through preasure that could somewhat happen to the flash. If Flash gets infinitly close to light he is still moving slower than it so i don't really get this travelling behind time thing, though i can remember people using this as a way to say dbz characters move faster than light. I have seen him beat himself in a race i just don't understand it.

Wally could win this figth, but i also see Goku win, due to the fact that i have seen Wally loose to lesser people, and to the fact that goku is a skilled fighter and could work around his speed.

[Gunners]

Because that's a relatively safe radius from a nuclear explosion?

We could shorten the distance to 10 kilometers and lengthen the time to 1 second and he would still be moving over 57 times lightspeed.
__________________

You know what annoys me, in a thread you are the exact type of person you see complaining saying ''It was a plot hole it couldn't happen'' to prove db characters not being able of certain things. Yet for this you don't accept that he does not move a trillion times faster than light, you are the same guy that bashes other members, sure.

He doesn't move a trillion times faster than light, if he did i would give the fight to him, but i don't think he does move that speed.

Normal flash what he does on an adverage basis is the flash i think would loose to Goku.

[Endless Mike]

Just because it's not explicitly stated doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Facts:

- Every other time he used the technique he had to lock on.

- He had the idea for the plan he was using at least as soon as he started charging up the beam

Doesn't this say that, logically, he also locked on during that time?

And reacting to the teleportation itself doesn't matter, because he can already beat Goku before he even gets a chance to use it.

He once raced a being who could teleport instantly and still won because he got to the destination faster than the being could think of using his teleportation.

http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flash138p186lh.jpg

[Endless Mike]

But ki is a mixture of spirit, anyway he could pass through it, i don't think he would. Though it isn't used in the show against the flash he has the option of opening in that manner.

Even if he charges up ( i need to check on this) people around somewhat freeze through preasure that could somewhat happen to the flash. If Flash gets infinitly close to light he is still moving slower than it so i don't really get this travelling behind time thing, though i can remember people using this as a way to say dbz characters move faster than light. I have seen him beat himself in a race i just don't understand it.

Wally could win this figth, but i also see Goku win, due to the fact that i have seen Wally loose to lesser people, and to the fact that goku is a skilled fighter and could work around his speed.

Sure he's lost to lesser people, but he's also beaten much greater people.

Notably the Anti - Monitor.

[Endless Mike]

You know what annoys me, in a thread you are the exact type of person you see complaining saying ''It was a plot hole it couldn't happen'' to prove db characters not being able of certain things. Yet for this you don't accept that he does not move a trillion times faster than light, you are the same guy that bashes other members, sure.

He doesn't move a trillion times faster than light, if he did i would give the fight to him, but i don't think he does move that speed.

Normal flash what he does on an adverage basis is the flash i think would loose to Goku.

What are you talking about?

Honestly, I fail to see any real arguments in this post.

Trillions of times c is Flash's high - end, but even just 2 or 3 times c would be enough to run rings around Goku.

[Keollyn]

He once raced a being who could teleport instantly and still won because he got to the destination faster than the being could think of using his teleportation.

http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flash138p186lh.jpg

This pretty much ends this thread.

[Endless Mike]

This pretty much ends this thread.

With Phenomen - LOL around?

Don't bet on it.

[Phenomenol]

Just because it's not explicitly stated doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Facts:

- Every other time he used the technique he had to lock on.

Wrong, that is if only he does not know where it is going. I can post Goku using it against Kid Buu instantly.

- He had the idea for the plan he was using at least as soon as he started charging up the beam

And, He can use Shunkan Idou as his natural speed Flash dies.

Doesn't this say that, logically, he also locked on during that time?

No it does not, his opponent is in front of him he is not travelling lightyears away.

And reacting to the teleportation itself doesn't matter, because he can already beat Goku before he even gets a chance to use it.

Nope, Flash aint beating that, instant is instant flash is dead.

He once raced a being who could teleport instantly and still won because he got to the destination faster than the being could think of using his teleportation.

http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flash138p186lh.jpg

That is no where near Goku's Shunkan Idou which Transcends Time and Space it is different. Flash dies because he won't even feel his death.

[Keollyn]

I'm now eager to see his retort to that scan you posted.

Edit: Nevermind. I got my wish.

[ydraliskos]

So you're saying that in comic books, speed doesnt equal distance/time?

That's common sense.

I'm saying that comic books bend(assrape) physics just to give powerlevels in the lamest way possible, then kill it, and make the assraped corpse a puppet and have it stripdance.
what the fuck is a trillion times the speed of light anyway? Why can't they just stick with the cap and make a proper scale below it and not be completely retarded is beyond me.

Things like multiples of light speed sound more retarded than SuperSuperSuperMan for chrissakes.

[Suzumebachi]

I'm saying that comic books bend(assrape) physics just to give powerlevels in the lamest way possible, then kill it, and make the assraped corpse a puppet and have it stripdance.
what the fuck is a trillion times the speed of light anyway? Why can't they just stick with the cap and make a proper scale below it and not be completely retarded is beyond me.

Things like multiples of light speed sound more retarded than SuperSuperSuperMan for chrissakes.

So? You know whats even more retarded? No one can figure out who Superman really is.

[Endless Mike]

Wrong, that is if only he does not know where it is going. I can post Goku using it against Kid Buu instantly.

Because he had been fighting him already and had already had a lock on his ki (you need to do this in a fight to track your opponent, as proved when Picollo told Gohan to follow Nappa with his ki senses).

And, He can use Shunkan Idou as his natural speed Flash dies.

No he can't.

He never has.

It's never even been hinted at.

Teleportation is not speed.

It works completely differently.

I might as well say that the Flash can freeze time and then turn Goku into a retarded cockroach with no legs, I would have just as much proof as you do.

No it does not, his opponent is in front of him he is not travelling lightyears away.

What does that matter?

He still has to lock on.

Nope, Flash aint beating that, instant is instant flash is dead.

You don't get it. The movement is instant, but the time to prepare to move is not instant. Flash kills him before he can even think of attacking.

That is no where near Goku's Shunkan Idou which Transcends Time and Space it is different. Flash dies because he won't even feel his death.

And your proof for this is?

What that being had was the exact same ability. Flash beat it. Fight over.

[Endless Mike]

I'm saying that comic books bend(assrape) physics just to give powerlevels in the lamest way possible, then kill it, and make the assraped corpse a puppet and have it stripdance.
what the fuck is a trillion times the speed of light anyway? Why can't they just stick with the cap and make a proper scale below it and not be completely retarded is beyond me.

Things like multiples of light speed sound more retarded than SuperSuperSuperMan for chrissakes.

What's wrong with measuring speed in multiples of c?

Of course it's impossible to travel faster than c in real life, but in universes where it is possible, it's a completely logical thing to do. It's used all the time in science fiction when measuring the FTL speed of starships.

[ydraliskos]

What's wrong with measuring speed in multiples of c?

Of course it's impossible to travel faster than c in real life, but in universes where it is possible, it's a completely logical thing to do. It's used all the time in science fiction when measuring the FTL speed of starships.

Its used with good sense tho. Anywhere else you see FTL, it's just a turning point. They go FTL, end of story. LS barrier breached. They don't do fanservice (I don't know how else to call it) by going x times the speed of light and now he went faster at x+y times speed of light.

Only place I have seen this is on statistics sheets or spaceship specs for some of the Sci-Fi universes out there, and NEVER inside a self respecting piece of non technical writing =/

Well I'm just venting my anger at the general direction western and eastern fictions seem to take...
It feels like we never left "Faster than a speeding bullet" ...

[Suzumebachi]

Only place I have seen this is on statistics sheets or spaceship specs for some of the Sci-Fi universes out there, and NEVER inside a self respecting piece of non technical writing =/

Han Solo: "She'll make ten past lightspeed."

I don't think Lucas was really super technical in writing Star Wars.

[Phenomenol]

Because he had been fighting him already and had already had a lock on his ki (you need to do this in a fight to track your opponent, as proved when Picollo told Gohan to follow Nappa with his ki senses).

Any DBZ character can lock on any one's ki even planets away. It is automatic something that can be done with no effort at all. Yet you would not know that because you know nothing of DBZ and you swear you do.:amazed

No he can't.

He never has.

It's never even been hinted at.

Teleportation is not speed.

It works completely differently.

I might as well say that the Flash can freeze time and then turn Goku into a retarded cockroach with no legs, I would have just as much proof as you do.

You cease to amaze me, Did you even see the damn Scan? Goku used Shunkan Idou on Cell as his natural speed.

What does that matter?

He still has to lock on.

He only locks on only when he does not know where he is going.


You don't get it. The movement is instant, but the time to prepare to move is not instant. Flash kills him before he can even think of attacking.

What is it that you are not getting that Goku used Shunkan Idou as HIS NATURAL SPEED? Flash is not that Damn fast anyway to stop Goku, Hell Flash gets hit by slow as characters all the time Goriila Grodd anyone?:amazed


And your proof for this is?

It was a race in the city it required no distance, Race Goku lightyears away you ain't beating his Shunkan Idou!

What that being had was the exact same ability. Flash beat it. Fight over.

Your foolishness never rests, anyone who argues with Shunkan Idou is a fool. Nothing is faster than that.

[Endless Mike]

Its used with good sense tho. Anywhere else you see FTL, it's just a turning point. They go FTL, end of story. LS barrier breached. They don't do fanservice (I don't know how else to call it) by going x times the speed of light and now he went faster at x+y times speed of light.

Only place I have seen this is on statistics sheets or spaceship specs for some of the Sci-Fi universes out there, and NEVER inside a self respecting piece of non technical writing =/

Well I'm just venting my anger at the general direction western and eastern fictions seem to take...
It feels like we never left "Faster than a speeding bullet" ...

When travelling across high distances or moving certain distances in certain amounts of times, simply lightspeed or slightly higher is not enough.

For example, if you want a civilization that can travel between galaxies routinely, you're going to need travel speeds way way higher than c.

[Endless Mike]

Han Solo: "She'll make ten past lightspeed."

I don't think Lucas was really super technical in writing Star Wars.

It was 0.5 past lightspeed, and that was explained in the EU as being a special type of logarithmic scale.

[Cthulhu-versailles]

...
Ur delusion and extremly biased if you think Flash can move trillions of times the speed of light going off that one issue. Within the comic itself, where Man Hunter became the Burning and sent the missiles to blow up the city, the coomic state Flash moved just under the speed of light. It doesn't matter if the calculations don't add up. They state he moved just under the speed of light. So if you want to claim FLash can move "trillions of times the speed of light", provide another source besides that one issue of the Jla comic. Lastly, it doesn't matter if the writers obviously didn't even factor in caluclations. His speed during that instance is intend as just under the speed of light. Anyway, Flash defeats the Dbz Universe, so Goku is joke. Nothing Goku does will ever be able to even touch the flash, literally, Flash will vibrate and avoid any attack. Personally, I place Flash Unleashed as the Strongest member of the Jla, above Superman and Martial Manhunter, even if they were to fight him together.

[ydraliskos]

Your foolishness never rests, anyone who argues with Shunkan Idou is a fool. Nothing is faster than that.

Lucky Luke is faster than that >_> Want proof? ^__^

When travelling across high distances or moving certain distances in certain amounts of times, simply lightspeed or slightly higher is not enough.

For example, if you want a civilization that can travel between galaxies routinely, you're going to need travel speeds way way higher than c.

Yes, I agree with that. But also, what does it matter. The author will pass you the information than Faster than Light travel has been achieved, then nobody cares about speeds unless it's a space race or a war campaign. Flash and the rest of the comics fall into neither category, they just use FTL multiples just for the sake of powerlevels .

[Suzumebachi]

It was 0.5 past lightspeed, and that was explained in the EU as being a special type of logarithmic scale.

Whoops. Haven't seen the movie in a while.

[Delta Shell]

...
Ur delusion and extremly biased if you think Flash can move trillions of times the speed of light going off that one issue. Within the comic itself, where Man Hunter became the Burning and sent the missiles to blow up the city, the coomic state Flash moved just under the speed of light. It doesn't matter if the calculations don't add up. They state he moved just under the speed of light. So if you want to claim FLash can move "trillions of times the speed of light", provide another source besides that one issue of the Jla comic. Lastly, it doesn't matter if the writers obviously didn't even factor in caluclations. His speed during that instance is intend as just under the speed of light. Anyway, Flash defeats the Dbz Universe, so Goku is joke. Nothing Goku does will ever be able to even touch the flash, literally, Flash will vibrate and avoid any attack. Personally, I place Flash Unleashed as the Strongest member of the Jla, above Superman and Martial Manhunter, even if they were to fight him together.

Yeah, exactly :)

Anyway, i'm willing to go with the time distortion thing but really, it's just a comic book.

I could see Flash winning if written intelligently.

[Endless Mike]

Any DBZ character can lock on any one's ki even planets away. It is automatic something that can be done with no effort at all. Yet you would not know that because you know nothing of DBZ and you swear you do

Then how come Goku always has to stop and think for a few seconds to do so?

You cease to amaze me, Did you even see the damn Scan? Goku used Shunkan Idou on Cell as his natural speed.

Teleportation is not 'natural speed'.

He powered up a kamehameha, then teleported near Cell at the last moment and fired it.

He only locks on only when he does not know where he is going.

WTF? Do you even listen to yourself? When has Goku ever teleported somewhere where he didn't know where he was going?

He always has a destination in mind.

Teleporting blindly would be stupid, he would probably end up in space and suffocate.

What is it that you are not getting that Goku used Shunkan Idou as HIS NATURAL SPEED? Flash is not that Damn fast anyway to stop Goku, Hell Flash gets hit by slow as characters all the time Goriila Grodd anyone?

Grodd can only hope to attack Flash with OFFENSIVE TELEPATHY.

Goku can just teleport places, won't help if he is blitzed before he can even teleport.

It was a race in the city it required no distance, Race Goku lightyears away you ain't beating his Shunkan Idou!

No distance?

Are you a moron?

Wait, of course you are.

EVEN A MILLIMETER IS DISTANCE!

Besides, the race only ended in the city.

And how would teleporting lightyears away help Goku, unless your winning strategy is for him to run away?

Your foolishness never rests, anyone who argues with Shunkan Idou is a fool. Nothing is faster than that.

Now you're just being a fanboy, the abilities were described in basically the EXACT SAME WAY, what makes you think one was better than the other?

[Endless Mike]

Lucky Luke is faster than that >_> Want proof? ^__^



Yes, I agree with that. But also, what does it matter. The author will pass you the information than Faster than Light travel has been achieved, then nobody cares about speeds unless it's a space race or a war campaign. Flash and the rest of the comics fall into neither category, they just use FTL multiples just for the sake of powerlevels .

It's not usually something that is stated directly, it's something that can be determined by the distance divided by time.

[Phenomenol]

Then how come Goku always has to stop and think for a few seconds to do so?

No he does not, you need to stop right now and go do research.

Teleportation is not 'natural speed'.

He powered up a kamehameha, then teleported near Cell at the last moment and fired it.

And he used it naturally likr it was nothing.


WTF? Do you even listen to yourself? When has Goku ever teleported somewhere where he didn't know where he was going?

He always has a destination in mind.

Teleporting blindly would be stupid, he would probably end up in space and suffocate.

Not in battle Mike! Not in battle. Goku focuses when he travels lightyears away or to heaven or hell on a specific person,place or thing.

Grodd can only hope to attack Flash with OFFENSIVE TELEPATHY.

And Flash is slow enough to get mind raped! yes he is.

Goku can just teleport places, won't help if he is blitzed before he can even teleport.

Damn your like a robot on repeat, Goku used the Shunkan Idou in battle as well as teleport places.


No distance?

Are you a moron?

Wait, of course you are.

EVEN A MILLIMETER IS DISTANCE!

Besides, the race only ended in the city.

And how would teleporting lightyears away help Goku, unless your winning strategy is for him to run away?

A race in a city means nothing, Goku does not need to run Flash dies before the fight begins.

Now you're just being a fanboy, the abilities were described in basically the EXACT SAME WAY, what makes you think one was better than the other?

No you are being a Flash fanboy, to argue against Shunkan Idou is only a fool's argument. Begone with your nonsense:thumbs

[Gunners]

Flash does not move a trillion time faster than light, a lot of this shit done by him is for readers pleasure, something people are in no haste to point out with db.

Him moving faster than timeless movement, well i want to know how they actually worked that out, i don't really value that scan that much to be truthful.

Anyway, i give this match to Goku, he could just go air bourn and blitz the lower ground, from what i have seen flash can not actually fly, once he is in the air he can hide in the clouds to make flash throwing objects more difficult, he can then blitz the lower ground, since his blast can hit the ground in less than a second he can time them really fast to blow of huge chunks and set it up in a way that flash can not escape.

[Suzumebachi]

Anyway, i give this match to Goku, he could just go air bourn and blitz the lower ground, from what i have seen flash can not actually fly, once he is in the air he can hide in the clouds to make flash throwing objects more difficult, he can then blitz the lower ground, since his blast can hit the ground in less than a second he can time them really fast to blow of huge chunks and set it up in a way that flash can not escape.

You really think the Flash can't avoid that? Even if he doesn't go trillions of times the speed of light, he still goes the speed of light. Thats more than enough to go to a Jack in the Box, get a Diner Melt combo and come back after the blast has hit.

[Endless Mike]

No he does not, you need to stop right now and go do research.

First time he uses it, he says he needs to lock onto a familiar ki. He takes a few seconds and then goes to Roshi's house and back, taking his sunglasses.

Going to King Kai's planet, he needs to lock on first.

Going from King Kai's planet to New Namek, he locks on first.

etc.

And he used it naturally likr it was nothing.

No, it's not 'natural speed'.

It was a one - shot attack, he only had one chance, and it relied on a trick of misdirection.

Not in battle Mike! Not in battle. Goku focuses when he travels lightyears away or to heaven or hell on a specific person,place or thing.

And it happens in battle too, he always has the idea of doing so way before it happens.

It won't matter, since Flash will Kill Goku before Goku can even think a single thought or even command his body to do anything.

And Flash is slow enough to get mind raped! yes he is.

If you're being telepathically attacked, it doesn't matter how fast you are, because telepathy is instant and omnidirectional.

Damn your like a robot on repeat, Goku used the Shunkan Idou in battle as well as teleport places.

Yeah, he used it in battle to teleport places, just to set up one - chance attacks or tricks. He doesn't use it constantly all the time. He can't even change directions in mid - teleport, or stop prematurely.

A race in a city means nothing, Goku does not need to run Flash dies before the fight begins.

Did you even listen to what I just said?

Reread it now. Flash can't die before the fight begins, because Goku can't react fast enough to hit him.

As soon as the fight starts Flash will kill Goku before Goku's neurons can even fire.

No you are being a Flash fanboy, to argue against Shunkan Idou is only a fool's argument. Begone with your nonsense

Only a fanboy would argue that something is impossible to beat.

[Gunners]

You really think the Flash can't avoid that? Even if he doesn't go trillions of times the speed of light, he still goes the speed of light. Thats more than enough to go to a Jack in the Box, get a Diner Melt combo and come back after the blast has hit.

Not it isn't the blast hit the earth in less than a second and blow a set chunk out, if he spams them he could lead explosions all over which he couldn't dodge. We know the blast in dbz move fast as a kamehameha reached the moon in about 2 seconds, that is close to light speed. People underate too much how fast the actuall ki blasts move.

Oh and does someone know how fast lightning moves, as goku was able to dodge that in DBZ, obviously as the series went on what he could doge increased.

[Endless Mike]

Flash does not move a trillion time faster than light, a lot of this shit done by him is for readers pleasure, something people are in no haste to point out with db.

Him moving faster than timeless movement, well i want to know how they actually worked that out, i don't really value that scan that much to be truthful.

Anyway, i give this match to Goku, he could just go air bourn and blitz the lower ground, from what i have seen flash can not actually fly, once he is in the air he can hide in the clouds to make flash throwing objects more difficult, he can then blitz the lower ground, since his blast can hit the ground in less than a second he can time them really fast to blow of huge chunks and set it up in a way that flash can not escape.

Except he will be killed before he can even get off the ground, and if he does, Flash will just jump up and kill him.

Goku is so slow he would appear completely frozen from the Flash's perspective.

[Endless Mike]

Not it isn't the blast hit the earth in less than a second and blow a set chunk out, if he spams them he could lead explosions all over which he couldn't dodge. We know the blast in dbz move fast as a kamehameha reached the moon in about 2 seconds, that is close to light speed. People underate too much how fast the actuall ki blasts move.

Oh and does someone know how fast lightning moves, as goku was able to dodge that in DBZ, obviously as the series went on what he could doge increased.

Yet we never saw a blast ever go that fast again.

And Flash will kill him before he can even think of firing one.

[Gunners]

Only a fanboy would argue that something is impossible to beat.

You are being a fanboy none the less, i probably am thinking about it, what i dislike about you though is you act as though you are above it, you claim certain things piss you off and you do the exact samething, what i am refering to? well some of your claims on Flash's feats can be considered the authors exageration ( or what ever it goes by) people point that out all the time with DB when it suits them ( if you are not one of those person i apologise) yet you hold them down with all seriousness in a debate.

[Keollyn]

Even if Flash isn't as fast as Mike says, he's DEFINITELY faster than light. Kakarotto isn't. Shunkan Ido is instant, yes, but the fact that Kakarotto's mind doesn't work instantly means that blitzing even Kakarotto with that technique wouldn't be hard for Flash.

[Endless Mike]

You are being a fanboy none the less, i probably am thinking about it, what i dislike about you though is you act as though you are above it, you claim certain things piss you off and you do the exact samething, what i am refering to? well some of your claims on Flash's feats can be considered the authors exageration ( or what ever it goes by) people point that out all the time with DB when it suits them ( if you are not one of those person i apologise) yet you hold them down with all seriousness in a debate.

When have I ever stated that in DBZ, authorial fiat overrides actual events?

If anything I have insisted on using the evidence of actual events over statements that could easily be hyperbole.

[Delta Shell]

Yet we never saw a blast ever go that fast again.

(To play Devil's advocate).

Maybe we did and it was shown relative to the fighter's reflex speed? Heck Goku extended his staff to the moon in a short space of time. The series is whacky like that.

I'm pretty sure Goku could dodge Roshi's Kamehameha easily by the end of DBZ.

[Suzumebachi]

Not it isn't the blast hit the earth in less than a second and blow a set chunk out, if he spams them he could lead explosions all over which he couldn't dodge. We know the blast in dbz move fast as a kamehameha reached the moon in about 2 seconds, that is close to light speed. People underate too much how fast the actuall ki blasts move.

Oh and does someone know how fast lightning moves, as goku was able to dodge that in DBZ, obviously as the series went on what he could doge increased.


Except the Flash can run to the other side of the planet before the first two second blast hits and then come back when Goku realizes he's not there.

Lightning is like, 1/70th the speed of light I think. Not sure, but I do know that it is alot slower than the speed light.

[Endless Mike]

(To play Devil's advocate).

Maybe we did and it was shown relative to the fighter's reflex speed? Heck Goku extended his staff to the moon in a short space of time. The series is whacky like that.

I'm pretty sure Goku could dodge Roshi's Kamehameha easily by the end of DBZ.

In that specific instance, there was a panel where a random bystander reacted to the blast before it hit.

That proves it moved slow at first but then accelerated.

[Delta Shell]

He fired it straight at the moon.

[Gunners]

Except he will be killed before he can even get off the ground, and if he does, Flash will just jump up and kill him.

Goku is so slow he would appear completely frozen from the Flash's perspective.

For a start Goku isn't that slow and he would not appear frozen to the flash, that is point one.

Point two Goku was able to dodge lightning early in the series, by the end of z im sure it exceeded light movement which he could dodge.

Point 3 his ki wave attacks can move close or faster than light speed with a high destructive power, he would get in the air before flash could get him, and he would ass raid the ground with ki blasts.

[Gunners]

Except the Flash can run to the other side of the planet before the first two second blast hits and then come back when Goku realizes he's not there.

Lightning is like, 1/70th the speed of light I think. Not sure, but I do know that it is alot slower than the speed light.

Considering the blast can destroy a great deal of the earth and move somewhat close to light, i think the actuall beam would miss flash, but then goku could time others to meat him, anyway it is the area of the explosion which would prove dangerous, he would find himself running into explosions.

[Suzumebachi]

It was never said that ki blasts move at lightspeed. Saying that the Kamehameha reached the moon in two seconds is an exaggeration.

[Suzumebachi]

Considering the blast can destroy a great deal of the earth and move somewhat close to light, i think the actuall beam would miss flash, but then goku could time others to meat him, anyway it is the area of the explosion which would prove dangerous, he would find himself running into explosions.

If Flash dodges the first blast, none of the others will work. Unless the first one hits, Flash is on the other side of the planet. He IS indeed that fast.

[Endless Mike]

For a start Goku isn't that slow and he would not appear frozen to the flash, that is point one.

Point two Goku was able to dodge lightning early in the series, by the end of z im sure it exceeded light movement which he could dodge.

Point 3 his ki wave attacks can move close or faster than light speed with a high destructive power, he would get in the air before flash could get him, and he would ass raid the ground with ki blasts.

Um, yes he would.

Flash can move multiple times lightspeed (lightning is much slower than light) and ki blasts never travel that fast except in a few rare instances.

[Gunners]

It was never said that ki blasts move at lightspeed. Saying that the Kamehameha reached the moon in two seconds is an exaggeration.

No it happened so it isn't an exageration, if i was to be cruel i woul say a maximum of 10 seconds, but from what i saw i take it as 2 seconds. 1....2....


If Flash dodges the first blast, none of the others will work. Unless the first one hits, Flash is on the other side of the planet. He IS indeed that fast.

Um yes they would because he would scatter them, if he would move to fast he would end up running into previos explosions he tried running from, like i said ass raid the planet, at the speed of ki blast i don't see him escaping.

[Suzumebachi]

Um yes they would because he would scatter them, if he would move to fast he would end up running into previos explosions he tried running from, like i said ass raid the planet, at the speed of ki blast i don't see him escaping.

You greatly underestimate the Flash's speed.

[Endless Mike]

At the start of the fight, Flash runs up before Goku can react and steals his speed.

Fight over.

[Gunners]

Um, yes he would.

Flash can move multiple times lightspeed (lightning is much slower than light) and ki blasts never travel that fast except in a few rare instances.

They were moving near that speed from db first tournement. So it isn't rare instances from that moment onwards blast were either greater or equal, i go with greater since Goku could dodge them that time, but later on still got hit when he increased his speed beyond certain people's vision.

Flash doesn't move multiple times lightspeed, he moves at lightspeed, if i take into account him moving lightspeed i might change my though, but i don't actually think he moves above lightspeed, from what i see he gets ripped into the speed force if he transends light speed.

And it isn't how fast the Ki blast move i am talking about Goku firing the blast so the whole surface of the earth would be covered in explosions, since he would for a breif period of time there would be no area without an explosion he would get hit.

[Gunners]

You greatly underestimate the Flash's speed.

You are greatly overrating it, or underating what the characters in dbz are capable of.

[Endless Mike]

He does move multiple times lightspeed, he's moved faster than light all the time, Wally much more so than the others.

And most of the time we can clearly see the ki blasts moving, and it can't be slowed down since everything in the environment and background are still moving at normal speed and not frozen.

Flash just kills Goku before Goku can even react or do anything.

[Keollyn]

Let's see... who would win? A turtle (Goku) or a cheetah (Flash)

Clearly the turtle would buttrape the cheetah.... Wait, what!?

[Gunners]

He does move multiple times lightspeed, he's moved faster than light all the time, Wally much more so than the others.

And most of the time we can clearly see the ki blasts moving, and it can't be slowed down since everything in the environment and background are still moving at normal speed and not frozen.

Flash just kills Goku before Goku can even react or do anything.

Well i don't know how it pans, i know how fast the blast can move in a distance, i guess the explanation is dbz characters in general are greater than ours, even the normal humans.

We know Goku can move faster than lighting, we know that his speed increased greatly from the point he died to vegita. We then know he was out of peoples vision in short bursts who are able to lock on to ki blasts moving light speed. He would be able reach the air intime to raid the ground. You are heavily underestimating the dbz characters precognition and their ability to dodge. You are overrating the flash moving at light speed isn't something he does, i don't even think he can do so.

Let's see... who would win? A turtle (Goku) or a cheetah (Flash)

Clearly the turtle would buttrape the cheetah.... Wait, what!?

I know someone's hopping on the bandwagon.

[Keollyn]

Well I do prefer to hop on the ACCURATE bandwagon, so yeah, you're right.

[Suzumebachi]

And it isn't how fast the Ki blast move i am talking about Goku firing the blast so the whole surface of the earth would be covered in explosions, since he would for a breif period of time there would be no area without an explosion he would get hit.

Goku couldn't send a ki blast everywhere on the planet. If he's going to try, he might as well blow up the planet.

I understand what you're trying to say. I'm saying that the Flash is fast enough to avoid the explosions. Even if the ki blasts move at lightspeed, Goku does not. The explosions won't all explode at the same time, as each ki blast would be behind each other by at least a second. More than enough time for Flash to avoid an explosion, see where another is coming from, and get to saftey again.

[Gunners]

Well I do prefer to hop on the ACCURATE bandwagon, so yeah, you're right.

But it nothing has been defined as right, unless you beleive majoriy=correctness, you don't even add any points you just make little one liners seeking to gain someones attention.

Goku couldn't send a ki blast everywhere on the planet. If he's going to try, he might as well blow up the planet.


Ah no, the diffrence is, if he blew up the earth he would die, all he needs to do is make sure the whole surface is exploding at the same exact time, so he has no where to run.

I understand what you're trying to say. I'm saying that the Flash is fast enough to avoid the explosions. Even if the ki blasts move at lightspeed, Goku does not. The explosions won't all explode at the same time, as each ki blast would be behind each other by at least a second. More than enough time for Flash to avoid an explosion, see where another is coming from, and get to saftey again.

Once the ki is emited, it will spread a large radius and linger for a while, if he pushes it all over in a fast time, it will eventually cover the earth in a ki explosion where there is no area to run, thus flash would get hit and die.

Anyway, im off to sleep.

[Keollyn]

But it nothing has been defined as right, unless you beleive majoriy=correctness, you don't even add any points you just make little one liners seeking to gain someones attention.



Ive never really known myself to follow other people's opinion. I feel that Goku can't beat Flash, and just because others feel the same way, I'm a follower? WTF kind of shit is that? Should I say you're on the Goku bandwagon and can't think for yourself then?

[Cthulhu-versailles]

----
Superman is the best example of why speed stealing is not necessarily a clincher in this fight and is of little cosequence. While flying along Flash, Flash explained what would happen if he stole Superman's speed at that moment. He stated that Superman would simply skid forward, all the way to another country, due to his velocity, and other such mumbo jumbo. :nuts That is how the stealing of Speed works, Flash steals your velocity, while you're moving, normally at high speeds. If this were done on a regular human though, thx to their much lower speed perception and such, it would they be like they'd become frozen in time. Hence the notion of Speed stealing freezing time for people...:amazed

Anyway, what you've stated Endlessmike is wrong. Flash would not simply run up to Goku, who would already be immobile to him, and then attempt to steal his speed. This is because Goku wouldn't even have moved yet, because he is to slow to keep up with Flash Speed blitzing him. In raw speed, and speed reaction, no one is as good as Flash, ever. :nod But wait, so how is that not a clincher you may ask. Ahem, the reason I say the speed stealing is not that big an issue is because in Dbz, they have psychic predicting like abilties. I'm not saying somewhat, I'm saying entirely. Goku touching Krillin and simply knowing everythign that went down is proof enough. In that sense, Goku has somewhat of a Manhunter kind of stich. What I man by that is that he may know what is coming and possibly how, so it increases reaction, as opposed to action. He would also know what the Flash may do. The only problem with all this though is that it changes nothing, because he cannot defend against it. Because unlike Manhunter, Goku has no way of touching the flash or rendering him immobile.

So yeah, Goku has no chance of survivng if Flash wants to speed blitz him. Superman reaction is considered sub par when compared to the Flash. Flash is above them both. Also, Goku has no chance if Flash uses any number of his bag of tricks. In theory, Flash could simply vibrate the air within the vicinity of Goku and remove the oxygen . No seriously, Flash is that broken. Better yet, Flash could get him onto the Speedforce... and take him to his death. Literally. He could strand him where ever he wants, or simply bring him to the end of the universe. Hes's done it before. Flash could also run back in time and attack Goku prior to them ven meeting. Flash could attack in a way so as to simply atomize Goku. One last thing, that I'm going to list that is, once the Ki blast is dodge full on, it becomes useless against Flash. This is because he can vibrate through explosion, or any non direct damage it may do. As to whether he could vibrate through the blast itself, that's speculation and would require exhaustive comparison. (Mostly because it is a fact Flash cannot vibrate through psychic energy and I think there's some other type, and or clause in there.) Rawrrrr! I'd honestly like someone in support of Goku to try and refute this paragraph, and tell me why they still think Goku can beat Flash. Flash is to broken. Goku has no chance. Even if he aimed to blow up the planet and was given time to do so, Flash would still win. Thx to his nifty old speed force broken abilties. Seriously, can you say broken.

[Samurai Man]

heyyyyyyyy someone just neg rep me and didint put his/her username comeon i just said that goku takes this one like almost everyone else

-----------
i dont speak english very well cause im learning

[Phenomenol]

Superman reaction is considered sub par when compared to the Flash. Flash is above them both. Also, Goku has no chance if Flash uses any number of his bag of tricks

That is tough talk. You claim Flash is so fast yet he takes Physical beat downs From Gorilla Grodd and the Rogues. Lets not even talk about how Doom just punched the Flash and Died! Yeah the Flash's reactions can not be beat huh?:amazed

Goku can predict the Flash's movements and Goku easily has faster than light reflexes.

@Endless Mike, whatt you are saying is that The Flash is faster than Shunkan Idou which is crap.

[Suzumebachi]

----
Superman is the best example of why speed stealing is not necessarily a clincher in this fight and is of little cosequence. While flying along Flash, Flash explained what would happen if he stole Superman's speed at that moment. He stated that Superman would simply skid forward, all the way to another country, due to his velocity, and other such mumbo jumbo. :nuts That is how the stealing of Speed works, Flash steals your velocity, while you're moving, normally at high speeds. If this were done on a regular human though, thx to their much lower speed perception and such, it would they be like they'd become frozen in time. Hence the notion of Speed stealing freezing time for people...:amazed

Anyway, what you've stated Endlessmike is wrong. Flash would not simply run up to Goku, who would already be immobile to him, and then attempt to steal his speed. This is because Goku wouldn't even have moved yet, because he is to slow to keep up with Flash Speed blitzing him. In raw speed, and speed reaction, no one is as good as Flash, ever. :nod But wait, so how is that not a clincher you may ask. Ahem, the reason I say the speed stealing is not that big an issue is because in Dbz, they have psychic predicting like abilties. I'm not saying somewhat, I'm saying entirely. Goku touching Krillin and simply knowing everythign that went down is proof enough. In that sense, Goku has somewhat of a Manhunter kind of stich. What I man by that is that he may know what is coming and possibly how, so it increases reaction, as opposed to action. He would also know what the Flash may do. The only problem with all this though is that it changes nothing, because he cannot defend against it. Because unlike Manhunter, Goku has no way of touching the flash or rendering him immobile.

So yeah, Goku has no chance of survivng if Flash wants to speed blitz him. Superman reaction is considered sub par when compared to the Flash. Flash is above them both. Also, Goku has no chance if Flash uses any number of his bag of tricks. In theory, Flash could simply vibrate the air within the vicinity of Goku and remove the oxygen . No seriously, Flash is that broken. Better yet, Flash could get him onto the Speedforce... and take him to his death. Literally. He could strand him where ever he wants, or simply bring him to the end of the universe. Hes's done it before. Flash could also run back in time and attack Goku prior to them ven meeting. Flash could attack in a way so as to simply atomize Goku. One last thing, that I'm going to list that is, once the Ki blast is dodge full on, it becomes useless against Flash. This is because he can vibrate through explosion, or any non direct damage it may do. As to whether he could vibrate through the blast itself, that's speculation and would require exhaustive comparison. (Mostly because it is a fact Flash cannot vibrate through psychic energy and I think there's some other type, and or clause in there.) Rawrrrr! I'd honestly like someone in support of Goku to try and refute this paragraph, and tell me why they still think Goku can beat Flash. Flash is to broken. Goku has no chance. Even if he aimed to blow up the planet and was given time to do so, Flash would still win. Thx to his nifty old speed force broken abilties. Seriously, can you say broken.


And then came Phenomenel.

EDIT: I knew it!:nuts

[Kisame]

yeah flash wins. I dont even feel like explaining why.


Ima go with flash runs so fast goku head explodes from sheer awesomeness

[Phenomenol]

You can't explain why.

[superbatman86]

Well seeing as the Flash ALWAYS needs momentum to even reach any kind of comparable speed to what Goku moves at he loses.The Flash has probably the 3rd or 4th top speed ever but it takes time for him to get there unless he steals someone else with the speed forces speed.

[Comic Book Guy]

Back from watching Pirates of the Carribean 2. Recommend it.

Sigh. . . so much on my plate.

-Goku vs. Superman; reviewing episodes for present and future threads
-re-reading Infinity Gauntlet in debating against tHotU
-editing the Saint Seiya translations
-real life

I wonder whether I should participate in this thread. . . lord knows if I do, I won't stop. . .

Which Flash are we using?

He bloodlusted or in-character?

[Phenomenol]

Who knows? The thread starter never said.

[Guy Gardner]

Dude, I'd drop the tHotU debate until he can explain why Omni doesn't mean Omni... but does... but doesn't. Anyone who says that the Beyonder somehow has ultimate power in the DC universe and can't actually use his own debate isn't worth your time.

Of course, my time is different. But not yours.

Edit: And Flash wins for numerous reasons already stated. All he needs to do is start stealing speed right off the bat and Goku is done for. He'll just speed blitz him into oblivion.

[Comic Book Guy]

Dude, I'd drop the tHotU debate until he can explain why Omni doesn't mean Omni... but does... but doesn't.

Well, it's hard for me to.

That debate irks me even more than the Superman vs. Goku one. The fact that he's stating the Gauntlet to be multiversal is plain wrong -- and I hate inaccuracy when it can be avoided.

It also pisses me off since I have to debate against another forum's argument in order to debate against him.

Anyone who says that the Beyonder somehow has ultimate power in the DC universe and can't actually use his own debate isn't worth your time.

The fact that he hasn't even read the Infinity Gauntlet makes it worst.

Regardless, I still hate such inaccuracy and mistakes like that.

Of course, my time is different. But not yours.

True.

Edit: And Flash wins for numerous reasons already stated. All he needs to do is start stealing speed right off the bat and Goku is done for. He'll just speed blitz him into oblivion.

Well. . . in terms of Wally's character, I can see that.

Of course, I have every Wally Flash comic in my computer; all 230 issues + specials + secret files.

Though, the thought of sitting down and reading them all really disheartens one from actually doing it, even though it would be a great repetoire of Flash knowledge.

[Phenomenol]

That debate irks me even more than the Superman vs. Goku one. Of course, I have every Wally Flash comic in my computer; all 230 issues + specials + secret files.

Though, the thought of sitting down and reading them all really disheartens one from actually doing it, even though it would be a great repetoire of Flash knowledge.

You can give up the Goku vs. Superman bout! Comic Book Guy. Theri is nothing Superman can do.:laugh

The Flash is fast super fast which is an understatement, but he aint beating Goku in physical combat!:)

[Suzumebachi]

The Flash is fast super fast which is an understatement, but he aint beating Goku in physical combat!


He doesn't have to.

[Phenomenol]

Yes he does.

[Suzumebachi]

Yes he does.

He could just vibrate his finger through Goku's brain and make his head explode.

[Comic Book Guy]

You can give up the Goku vs. Superman bout! Comic Book Guy. Theri is nothing Superman can do.

You really don't know me that well, do you?

Last time I checked, I was the last person who posted in the topic. Which means I'm still interested.

The Flash is fast super fast which is an understatement, but he aint beating Goku in physical combat!

Physical combat is not the only way in which fights can be settled.

[Guy Gardner]

I believe I posted in the Superman vs. Goku thread (or one of them) a comic where Wally was testing Clark's new speed as "Energy Superman". He ran from Buenos Aires to I think it was China in .003 seconds (And saved someone on the way), and it calculated to way, WAY over lightspeed.

I honestly don't understand how Goku can even think to beat the master of speed. Hell, Quicksilver in the Ultimate Universe was able to get HUGE air to get Thor's belt. Wally could get WAY more than that given his speed. DBZ has never been shown to be nearly as fast as most comic books, and there is little to nothing to show that it has broken the light-speed barrier. Simply "FIGHTING REALLY, REALLY FAST" doesn't qualify, and there's nothing to prove that their speed has been exponentially growing.

Another point to make is that XS (A relative of Wally in the future) was able to steal the speed of an entire planet, including its inhabitants, so as to save it from a horrible disease (If I remember it correctly). For Wally, someone who is directly connected to the Speed Force, this wouldn't be a huge feat. Thusly, he doesn't need to touch Goku, he just needs to steal the speed of the planet to freeze him.

[Phenomenol]

You really don't know me that well, do you?

Yes I do you are my rival! You are the pitbull and you never let go, you never give up. I like that in my opponents.smile-big

Physical combat is not the only way in which fights can be settled.

Well hell, I can name alot of people who Koed Flash, and most of them were weaker than Spiderman.:amazed

[Comic Book Guy]

Which is why I specifically ask which version are we using, and whether he's IC or OOC.

[conceptz]

I hope THE FLASH movie pulls through.

[Kuya]

I hope THE FLASH movie pulls through.

there's gonna be a movie? nice.

[Comic Book Guy]

I don't know.

After Superman Returns. . . I lost faith in comic book adaptions.

[Phenomenol]

Which is why I specifically ask which version are we using, and whether he's IC or OOC.

Does not matter, Hell someone tried to use examples of The Flash from JLA! Whatever.:oh

[Scorpio3.14]

Of course, I have every Wally Flash comic in my computer; all 230 issues + specials + secret files.

Though, the thought of sitting down and reading them all really disheartens one from actually doing it, even though it would be a great repetoire of Flash knowledge.

If it makes it any easier you can probably just skip a lot of the beginning stuff and go straight to where Mark Waid starts writing the Flash. Thats really when Wally becomes Wally in my book, Mark Waid's Flash = THE Flash, all others after are just imitations (although some are some very good imitations :P) He starts at issue 62 with "Flash: Year One" which retells Wally's origin story and years as Kid Flash. Heck, you can even probably skip to issue 75 (Return of Barry Allen which is a very good arc) or even issue 92 (Which IMO starts the more modern era of Flash with the introduction of Bart Allen aka Impulse).

Anyways, Ive read a significant portion of Wally's run as Flash and consider myself to be somewhat of a self proclaimed expert on Wally and the Flash :P If anyone wants to check any validaty of anything involving Flash you can run it past me and I can try to give a non-biased response (as non-biased as possible considering he is my favorite character lol) and I will include issue numbers and scans if needed, as long as context which is important to understanding scans.

[warrior1000]

Goku would totally kill Flash.

I been reading all the replies in this tread, you guys are totally under-estimating Goku's abilities. Goku is pretty fast on his own, if you say Flash can go the speed of light, Goku can go warp speed. Even is Flash avoids Goku's ki blasts and go around the world, Goku can simplily blow up the world, and there goes Flash, and Gokucan instant transmit to another planet, he survives, flash dies.

[Kisame]

Even is Flash avoids Goku's ki blasts and go around the world, Goku can simplily blow up the world, and there goes Flash, and Gokucan instant transmit to another planet, he survives, flash dies.

.................................................. ..............


Okay your obiviously a Dbz fan.


by the time it takes Goku to even think that the fight has begun flash could have.


1. Gone back in time and killed goku as soon as he came to earth
2. grabbed some object and rammed it through gokus heart
3. Vibrated his body through goku and made him explode
4. picked up goku and left him in the speedforce
5. kicked goku in the nuts and made a wise crack
6. waited those eons for goku to charge up a planet exploding blast and took goku and moved him in front of it.

etc...

[Dark Evangel]

Goku would totally kill Flash.

I been reading all the replies in this tread, you guys are totally under-estimating Goku's abilities. Goku is pretty fast on his own, if you say Flash can go the speed of light, Goku can go warp speed. Even is Flash avoids Goku's ki blasts and go around the world, Goku can simplily blow up the world, and there goes Flash, and Gokucan instant transmit to another planet, he survives, flash dies.And what makes you think Flash would just stand there waiting for Goku to blew the world. Goku needs to charge up before doing such attacks thus Flash could just simply hit him since he is still not immune to physical attacks or steal his speed to cancel Goku's kamehameha.

[warrior1000]

And what makes you think Flash would just stand there waiting for Goku to blew the world. Goku needs to charge up before doing such attacks thus Flash could just simply hit him since he is still not immune to physical attacks or steal his speed to cancel Goku's kamehameha.


Goku's in the air, and where would Flash go or do, he cant fly, and he does not have much physical strenght, and don't give me a stupid answer like Flash will jump and kill goku, Flash can't fly, so jumping would limit his movement in the air, Goku would own the flash in the air. Goku doesn't need to power up that much to blow up a planet, Vegita did it with just two finger and this is when he and nappa were going to earth.

[Kisame]

goku doesnt start in the air....

the match starts. .00001 sec later flash ends the fight.

[warrior1000]

goku doesnt start in the air....

the match starts. .00001 sec later flash ends the fight.

You are saying Goku is slow as a snail, have you not seen Dbz, i would say all the fight that happen after goku goes ssj2 are faster than the speed of light.

[Kisame]

You are saying Goku is slow as a snail, have you not seen Dbz, i would say all the fight that happen after goku goes ssj2 are faster than the speed of light.

It takes time to think to go ssj2.

Flash is beyond speed of dbz.


Flash is so ridiculous in speed this match could be over before it started...literally.

[kombak]

ah what a joke
even if comics heros are crap , goku win this
goku is as fast as flash , plz , he can fly around the earth 10x within 1 sec like goten did
if u take everything , then go take everything , goten did it just after the fusion

and flash , even at lightening speed couldnt even scratch goku , goku can take blowing up planets and universe punch , or beam , what flash can do? ahah :lol:

[Renegade]

Well if the Flash can move faster than the speed of light, and much faster than Goku. Then since speed contributes energy, i'de give this to the Flash. All the added speed to his punch or kick would completely devestate Goku.

[kombak]

we are talking about goku , not a common guys ....

[Renegade]

we are talking about goku , not a common guys ....
The Flash exceeds Goku in speed. Speed contributes to the energy of an attack. He can hit harder and move faster than Goku.

[kombak]

It could be right if they have the SAME power without speed

but Goku's raw power is 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 bigger than flash , i dont even think , in fact im sure (:p) that even with his speed , hes faaar from goku's power

[Renegade]

It could be right if they have the SAME power without speed

but Goku's raw power is 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 bigger than flash , i dont even think , in fact im sure (:p) that even with his speed , hes faaar from goku's powerIt's true that goku is stronger than the flash, but that doesn't mean he can hit harder. He might be able to choke him really good, or other things of that sort, but he won't be able to hit harder than him.

[kombak]

Damn i really do hate comics hero ^^
Yo know , goku has infinite power , speed and everything u want , i just wanted to make it clear , if toryama stop DBZ , thats because they dont know any limits....always becoming stronger....if they just had as much time as comics hero, i cant even imagine their power/speeds :p

But still , Goku can fly around the earth 10 times ,(the whole planet) in ONE second, its already freakin fast

+ 1000000000000000000 power than flash


I think bit slower (even if i dont think so , u guys do :p) + 1000000000000000 strengh > a bit faster

[Endless Mike]

Goku can't fly around the earth 10 times in one second.

He never did that ever.

Gotenks took several minutes to fly around the earth a few times.

[kombak]

watch the anime again

u see the earth from outside , then something flying around it very fast in few second (ok not one :p)

proof?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_kYlZtMfNKk&search=gotenk%20flying%20

And this is not even ssj3 which is 10x , maybe more stronger / faster than SSJ1
and goku went SSJ4 , maybe 100x stronger/faster than SSJ1?

[Gunners]

Goku can't fly around the earth 10 times in one second.

He never did that ever.

Gotenks took several minutes to fly around the earth a few times.

Actually we don't know the amount of time, we know what it is less than, and we know the minimum amount he circuited.

Anyway, Flash would ''run up to flash and kill him'' dbz characters are able to dodge objects comming in light speed, shown by them dodging Kamehameha blasts. Flash can not fly, so Goku would just make his way to the sky, transform and raid the earth below him.

[Hangatýr]

Ki blasts do not move at lightspeed.

DBZ characters do not achieve, or exceed lightspeed in battle, save for IT.

[Gunners]

Ki blasts do not move at lightspeed.

DBZ characters do not achieve, or exceed lightspeed in battle, save for IT.

Yeh they do, one kid blast reached the moon in what about 2 seconds.

[Hangatýr]

Show me proof of this.

And the average distance between moon and earth is still 384,403 km, which at two seconds would mean the ki blast is still below lightspeed.

[Gunners]

Show me proof of this.

And the average distance between moon and earth is still 384,403 km, which at two seconds would mean the ki blast is still below lightspeed.

I have posted the picture before, i can't bebothered to get my disk and upload the picture, i will describe the scene, whem Roshi blew up the moon to stop ape goku in the finals.

We know they can dodge lightning at close speed, i'm not sure how fast that it, but it is the speed they can dodge from right up close.

I don't think Flash would ''speed blitz'' him like you say, no i think he would charge forward goku would dodge, or time a punch that could hit him, he would then fly in the air, go to the clouds so flash can not seen him, and make the earth rain with ki blasts.

[Hangatýr]

I have the DB volume of that match, at it doesn't appear to happen in two seconds.

But even so, the Flash can move faster than Goku can think.

[Gunners]

I have the DB volume of that match, at it doesn't appear to happen in two seconds.

To me it does, that is how i take it in.. Regardless they move at fast speeds, meaning flash would not be able to charge at them with his leisure.

People are high underestimating db character. By the end of z i would asume attacks moved faster than then, due to characters not dodging but easily dodging earlier blast. In close range combat, the dbz characters might not move light speed, but imo they get close to it.

Flash has speed, at the same time Goku has ki strength, and other props what people seem to forget, he isn't a slug either, to the flash he might appear to move slow, but not hyper slow he would still make movements forcing the flash to move out the way relatively fast for his standards.

[Hangatýr]

The Flash can move at several times the speed of light, this is much faster than the body even uses the fastest reflexes, let alone thought, so Goku has little chance of even thinking of something to do before Flash reaches him.

DBZ characters do move faster than light, but not anywhere near lightspeed with out IT.

[Endless Mike]

Actually we don't know the amount of time, we know what it is less than, and we know the minimum amount he circuited.

Anyway, Flash would ''run up to flash and kill him'' dbz characters are able to dodge objects comming in light speed, shown by them dodging Kamehameha blasts. Flash can not fly, so Goku would just make his way to the sky, transform and raid the earth below him.

Ki blasts never move very fast at all except in rare circumstances.

Usually they only move a few dozen meters per second.

[Endless Mike]

In that clip he flew around the world 9 times in about 7 seconds.

That's way slower than lightspeed.

Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.

[Gunners]

The Flash can move at several times the speed of light, this is much faster than the body even uses the fastest reflexes, let alone thought, so Goku has little chance of even thinking of something to do before Flash reaches him.

DBZ characters do move faster than light, but not anywhere near lightspeed with out IT.

For one dbz characters can think faster than normal humans, lets get that point out in the open.

Two i don't actually think flash can above lightspeed, the same group of people are always quick to point out it is impossible, i know he has the speedforce, i just beleived the moment he went lightspeed that is where he went.


Ki blasts never move very fast at all except in rare circumstances.

Usually they only move a few dozen meters per second.

Remember fights are slowed down for the audience, and they move the same speeed or faster, otherwise they wouldn't be able to hit after one guy makes an increase in speed.

Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.

Not it isn't contradicted, as it says maximum, that could have been the authors intent to show how fast he was moving in a short space of time, diffrent people can take it diffrent ways, one of the areas where an opinion comes to play.

[kombak]

In that clip he flew around the world 9 times in about 7 seconds.

That's way slower than lightspeed.

Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.

9 times in 7sec
And hes SSJ 1 , take 10x for ssj3 , and take 100x for ssj4
in DBZ , they always train strengh AND speed together
so in SSj4 he can do 900 times in 7s i think ?

Coz we all know how much every transformation affect speed/strengh in DBZ

[Endless Mike]

THe fights are not slowed down for the audience, we can clearly see random stuff in the background moving and many times we see civilians reacting to it.

And the Flash can go much faster than c, it has been shown multiple times.

[kombak]

fights are slowed down....
there is the same difference in speed between goku when 1st fight with vegeta, /goku SSJ3 , and an ant with flash :p
anyway , all the fight , goku vs vegeta , goku friezer , goku cell , goku boo , looks like the same speed , for the audience...

[Gunners]

THe fights are not slowed down for the audience, we can clearly see random stuff in the background moving and many times we see civilians reacting to it.

And the Flash can go much faster than c, it has been shown multiple times.
__________________

I theorise the mortals of dbz move faster than we do.

No once again i see this a you pointing out mistakes or trivial things from dbz yet bipassing it for the flash.

[Endless Mike]

That's completely unfounded speculation with no evidence whatsoever.

If normal people in DBZ could really move at superspeed, what would they need cars for?

[kombak]

That's completely unfounded speculation with no evidence whatsoever.



Same for 80% of posts here...speculation

[konflikti]

Same for 80% of posts here...speculation

Stop posting so much.

I'm obviously saying Flash. Pro-Flash posters have posted much more insightful posts than the pro-Goku posters.

Anyways, people should stop posting these threads where people who have actually read comics can tell the winner right away(generalization, don't feel offended), while the non-familiar-with-comics drag the discussion to no endy(generalization, don't feel offended).

[Gunners]

That's completely unfounded speculation with no evidence whatsoever.

If normal people in DBZ could really move at superspeed, what would they need cars for?

because the cars move faster, and distance etc. Like i said, i was making that up on the spot, the main point was how you figure pick and choose points, wheen a dbz character does a great feat, authors fuck up, when something like this appears you take it as gold.

Anyways, people should stop posting these threads where people who have actually read comics can tell the winner right away(generalization, don't feel offended), while the non-familiar-with-comics drag the discussion to no endy(generalization, don't feel offended).

But the match isn't instantly decided, yes he can move at the speed of light, but he can not fly, all goku needs to do is dodge him and go airbourne in the clouds where he can not see him. And i beleive Goku would be able to dodge him, he is able to dodge ki blast which travel at speeds close to light.

[kombak]

Stop posting so much.


konflikti
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 745


kombak
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 115



Anyway , pro comics dont have more , and better arguments as far as i can see



edit : For exemple , take saint seiya
By the end of the show, theyre moving a LOT faster than speed of light....

But when they are fighting , do u feel such speed? NO
why? audience...we have to see whats going on
But we know that in fact , they move at lightspeed and even a lot more after.

And at lightspeed , whats their strengh?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< any dbz fighter strengh ( physical strengh
take a Pegase meteor , or comete if u want , against a Broly punch... :p)

[Renegade]

watch the anime again

u see the earth from outside , then something flying around it very fast in few second (ok not one :p)

proof?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_kYlZtMfNKk&search=gotenk%20flying%20

And this is not even ssj3 which is 10x , maybe more stronger / faster than SSJ1
and goku went SSJ4 , maybe 100x stronger/faster than SSJ1?
That's the anime... not the manga. The anime can fuck up a lot of things. An example is from Naruto during the Neji and Naruto battle, there was a smoke cloud in the end and the anime made it look as if they were flying into the smoke cloud instead of out of the smoke cloud, which is what happened in the manga.

[kombak]

That's the anime... not the manga.

and so what? its a fight here
we can take manga , anime , and OAV, movies....

[konflikti]

konflikti
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 745


kombak
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 115

You fail at understanding the joke. Broly is filler(not canon). No one cares about filler.

In relative universe, speed increases mass. Something moving at the speed of light would have infinite mass. Thus, Flash hitting with Infinite Mass Punches. Infinite > number.

[Renegade]

and so what? its a fight here
we can take manga , anime , and OAV, movies....
The anime can fuck up a lot of things. An example is from Naruto during the Neji and Naruto battle, there was a smoke cloud in the end and the anime made it look as if they were flying into the smoke cloud instead of out of it, which is how it was suppose to happen and how it happened in the manga.

[kombak]

It doesnt really matter dbz are moving at speed of light too , same for saint seiya , which has been stated...

do you really see , a lightspeed pegasus ryu seiken , killing goku ?

and base seiya strengh >>>>> flash (without moving) no?

[Renegade]

^ Wouldn't know, I hate Saint Seiya... couldn't get passed reading the first chapter :amuse.

[konflikti]

It doesnt really matter dbz are moving at speed of light too , same for saint seiya , which has been stated...

do you really see , a lightspeed pegasus ryu seiken , killing goku ?

and base seiya strengh >>>>> flash (without moving) no?

Yes, most people are stronger than Flash without his powers, while the opponents have their own. Doesnt matter too much though.

DBZ doesn't move ftl. Saint Seiya does. There is lengthy DBZ vs. Saint Seiya thread somewhere. There is also lenghty DBZ speed thread on Meta, which was closed since there was no new info.

[kombak]

I just reminded something
didnt Goku & cooler fought , during teleport in the movie? (vegeta couldnt )

[Renegade]

I don't think movies are cannon...

[konflikti]

I don't think movies are cannon...
Correct. Only orginal DB and DBZ manga are. Since they actually are straight from AT.

[kombak]

Fights here are "all we know " on the guys fighting , i think taking oav , and anime isnt bad....

Is that the same guy , who created flash, still writing it? same for other comics heros...i hope u see my point

and if i remind , Goku & cooler were fighting , at teleport speed

[The Wanderer]

Flash wins, all reasons stated by Endless Mike and co. And btw, you pro Goku supporters are making the DBZ fandom look bad : /

Sadly for you guys, Goku cannot win this fight, he isn't fast enough to even star to move before is face is melted, literally :P. Flash supporters provided enough info to reach that conclusion. The problem with you is that you don't want someone to burst your bubble, where "Goku > all".

And kombak (and all pro-Goku people), please post some pictures backing up your claims, "all show no substance posts" can help you so far.

[ydraliskos]

In relative universe, speed increases mass. Something moving at the speed of light would have infinite mass. Thus, Flash hitting with Infinite Mass Punches. Infinite > number.

What makes you think speed increases mass in Flash's universe? If other laws oh physics obviously don't apply(ftl), why should this particular one do?

You can't go out and say that something is FTL, then use actual physics to prove points, since you already disregarded actual physics to reach FTL.

[kombak]

I dont see any reason that say this.... sorry
and im not pro goku kk thx , some proof? i gave ....

-9 times the earth in 7s at SSJ1 , just think about SSJ 2 / 3 / 4 which is about..10 times stronger/faster each transformation? (and this is also a fact)

-Teleport fighting in a movie and teleport >>>>>>>>>>> faster than speed of light

-Lighting speed doesnt give u such a tremendous raw power , proof? saint seiya , they are moving at this speed and a lot faster by the end , and we saw what can they do (physical damage) with that speed

[Renegade]

Fights here are "all we know " on the guys fighting , i think taking oav , and anime isnt bad....
well considering OAVs and movies are not cannon, you cannot include them... Did you ever see the Naruto sports festival? It showed Itachi and Kisame standing in line for the bathroom and Yondaime walking past Naruto.

Things that are not cannon should not be included in the argument.

[Renegade]

In relative universe, speed increases mass. Something moving at the speed of light would have infinite mass. Thus, Flash hitting with Infinite Mass Punches. Infinite > number.
Speed does not increase mass, it increases energy. :wink

[kombak]

Is that the same guy , whos writting comics heros adventures , from the begining , until now?
if yes, then ok , dont take movies (and even like this...this aint really correct)

If thats not the same guy , we can take everything we know from DBZ , since its just another guy wrting the story , but the same character

[Gunners]

Flash wins, all reasons stated by Endless Mike and co. And btw, you pro Goku supporters are making the DBZ fandom look bad : /

Considering endless mike is bullshitting sprouting crap like trillion times faster than light, i don't buy into it.

Sadly for you guys, Goku cannot win this fight, he isn't fast enough to even star to move before is face is melted, literally . Flash supporters provided enough info to reach that conclusion. The problem with you is that you don't want someone to burst your bubble, where "Goku > all".

I don't care about Goku leaving, shit Flash is probably my favourite hero, well Wally anyway. The point is people are overrating his speed and underrating Goku's to the point of people saying, ''he wouldn't be able to move his face''.

I think i recall death stroke beating him in a similar manner setting out explosions all over and putting a knife the one place he would run, well Goku is stronger and faster than death stroke, so i could see him rigging ki blast explosions all over till flash has no where to run.

[konflikti]

What makes you think speed increases mass in Flash's universe? If other laws oh physics obviously don't apply(ftl), why should this particular one do?

You can't go out and say that something is FTL, then use actual physics to prove points, since you already disregarded actual physics to reach FTL.

That's why I said "In relative universe.". DC seems to be relative universe whenever needed(main reason why at some instances Flash tops at lightspeed?). Flash punches are dubbed as Infinite Mass Punches, which hints that at least they are rather related to relative universe. Speedforce being the ultimate plot-device, Flash's powers are bit more shakier than say Supermans.

Is that the same guy , whos writting comics heros adventures , from the begining , until now?
if yes, then ok , dont take movies (and even like this...this aint really correct)

If thats not the same guy , we can take everything we know from DBZ , since its just another guy wrting the story , but the same character

Same company. They decide wether a storyline is canon or not. Some DBZ movies are out of timeline and contain other inconsitancies and are thus widely disregarded.

Manga != Western Comic, comparison isn't accurate.

Considering endless mike is bullshitting sprouting crap like trillion times faster than light, i don't buy into it.

That's rather far from bullshit. You may take preference in actual statements of speed, but the scenario is different. Lightspeed isn't enough in there. It up to you if which line you believe, but the other still isn't bullshit.

[Renegade]

Is that the same guy , whos writting comics heros adventures , from the begining , until now?
if yes, then ok , dont take movies (and even like this...this aint really correct)
No, Kishi does not write the movies... :wink , the only thing he writes and the only thing that is truly cannon is the manga.

If thats not the same guy , we can take everything we know from DBZ , since its just another guy wrting the story , but the same character
Lol, wtf. So you're saying that as long as the characters are the same, it doesn't matter who writes the story? Ok, let's say my 10 year old cousin wrote a different version of the manga but used the same characters and made Goku do shit like blow up the entire universe and other shit that he could not do in the actual manga. Are we to assume that it's real and cannon? No, because my 10 year old cousin is not the original writer of the manga.

The only thing cannon is the manga. Periot studios (creators of the Naruto anime) have nothing to do with the actual Naruto story. The only thing truly cannon and the only thing created by Kishi is the Manga.

[Gunners]

That's rather far from bullshit. You may take preference in actual statemets of speed, but the scenario is different. Lightspeed isn't enough in there. It up to you if which line you believe, but the other sill isn't bullshit.

But Flash does not move a trillion times faster than light, i know he moves light speed, but to my knowledge he does not exceed it.

[Renegade]

That's why I said "In relative universe.". DC seems to be relative universe whenever needed(main reason why at some instances Flash tops at lightspeed?). Flash punches are dubbed as Infinite Mass Punches, which hints that at least they are rather related to relative universe. Speedforce being the ultimate plot-device, Flash's powers are bit more shakier than say Supermans.
Speed does not increase mass though, even in the DC universe. That's just basic physics, speed increases energy. Speed coupled with mass increases the energy of an object. Since the Flash is incredibly fast, speed plays a big role in the energy of his punch/kick. That's why the energy of his punch/kick is greater than Goku's; because the Flash has more speed.

[ydraliskos]

Speed is squared, yes.

However people don't realize that every force has a reaction. An Infinite Mass punch would blow away the Flash as surely as it would his opponent...

[Renegade]

^ In the process of a punch, the energy from the person's fist gets transferred into the person's face. It's not like the "puncher" gets blown back too when he punches the person. This is because the fist of the "puncher" has momentum going forward, therefore the momentum of the fist trumps the reaction gained from the punch.

But since every action has an equal and opposite reaction, it is true that the harder someone punches, the more that person's fist will hurt. So that's the only messed up thing about this. Unless the Flash had a very strong body (in the sense of how metals like steel are strong), his fist would be completely fucked up. But again, this is why you cannot use real-life physics while debating about comic books.

[konflikti]

Speedforce blocks any harmful reactions to him/surroundings his speed causes.

Infinite Mass Punch - Introduced under Grant Morrison, Flash, travelling near the speed of light acquired the relativistic mass of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the force of "a white dwarf star" (almost certainly hyperbole, nonetheless quite hard indeed), Flash's own durability regulated by the Speed Force in such cases.

Got mixed in my thoughts at some point. The idea was that the energy released would need mass that high.

[ydraliskos]

Speedforce blocks any harmful reactions to him/surroundings his speed causes.

Lmao, this is so pathetic. And to think those writers actually get paid to write this shit.

[Kisame]

Yes the speedforce protects flash from things such as friction and momentum.

And also from objects he is holding.

[ydraliskos]

And for whatever other thing might come up in the future, with such a broad definition, I'm sure.

[Renegade]

Lmao, this is so pathetic. And to think those writers actually get paid to write this shit.
It's a fictional comic book dude, what do you expect...

[ydraliskos]

I expect decent writing, not a plot-device with a name. Where's the fun, if you know that speedforce+ftl for example , as it is right now, can be used as an excuse to do ANYTHING. The writer 'll throw in a half assed explanation " oh didn't I tell you, speedforce also removes coffee stains" and voila, the plot advances.

[Renegade]

^ Well, that's the beauty of fictional entertainment, the writer can do whatever the fuck he wants, lol.

[Reznor]

Version of Flash matters alot for this.

JLU Flash on CN would get owned. Anyone for Flash is going to have to realize that people's perception of Flash are based off this one so their opinions entering this are going to be for largely for Goku.

However, later Flashes win, like KC. He can outrun planet destroying blasts. If Flash runs the direction Goku wants him to and he just IT's in front, heat at a manueverability disadvantage.

Tierswise, I don't think that Goku is behind the Flash. In fact, I think Buu Saga is higher than all but KC Flash, who is around Fusion Saga.

But Goku's style just isn't good against Flash. That wouldn't matter against weaker Flashes. Against later Flashes, it would matter. Against KC Flash, who is also higher-tiered, it definitely would matter - level 100 Water pokemon beats level 80 Fire pokemon.

The only point of contension I see: can the Flash dodge an attack from a direction he's not aware of? If he can, this gives Goku a shot.

[Kisame]

JLU Flash on CN would get owned. Anyone for Flash is going to have to realize that people's perception of Flash are based off this one so their opinions entering this are going to be for largely for Goku.

Even that flash would win. He can still go lightspeed and vibrate and do all his other tricks.


He still got transported to the speedforce.

[Reznor]

Even that flash would win. He can still go lightspeed and vibrate and do all his other tricks.

He still got transported to the speedforce. Yeah, he has those tricks, but I don't think that he'd win.

I mean, earlier in the show, cars and guns were a problem for him. Even after Lexiac, he's still not some diety.

[Scorpio3.14]

JLU Flash would loose hard, he can get to light speed but his accelerations is faaaaar slower then comic flash, he had to lap the world several times even to gain good speed.

KC Flash would win this all to easily. He can fly, transverse dimensions as easily as breathing, be everywhere in an entire city at once without ever being seen 24/7 with no rest, and is theorized by fans to be more or less fused with the speed force.

However, I always assume is the normal cannon Flash unless otherwise stated. In this case Im assumeing its Wally since a) Current Flash is still being worked out in the comic and is depowered ATM and b) He is the most well known Flash. Im also assumeing this is before IC since the fate of the speed force is still being worked out in the new comic.

[Phenomenol]

In that clip he flew around the world 9 times in about 7 seconds.

That's way slower than lightspeed.

Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.

You have been chatting garbage and backing your OPINIONS up with no proof.

The anime does not contradict the manga in the least.

From the manga, volume 40, page 139, Gotenks: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."

That is at least 24-36 times around the globe!

Maybe you don't understand the concept of LIGHT trails. To leave a LIGHT trail you have to be going as fast or faster than light. Why are you even bothering to argue? I've already proven that ki blasts can go as fast as light (they ARE light) and we've seen sayans dodge and outfly ki blasts.

Flash can not achieve lihghtspeed instantly it takes time for him to charge up, I see how some of you are overrating Flash.

Be gone with your non sense :thumbs

[Hangatýr]

You have been chatting garbage and backing your OPINIONS up with no proof.

The anime does not contradict the manga in the least.

From the manga, volume 40, page 139, Gotenks: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."

That is at least 24-36 times around the globe!

Maybe you don't understand the concept of LIGHT trails. To leave a LIGHT trail you have to be going as fast or faster than light. Why are you even bothering to argue? I've already proven that ki blasts can go as fast as light (they ARE light) and we've seen sayans dodge and outfly ki blasts.

Flash can not achieve lihghtspeed instantly it takes time for him to charge up, I see how some of you are overrating Flash.

Be gone with your non sense :thumbs
There are no such thing as light-trails, only trails of things that emitt light.

Ki blasts aren't light, they're ki, and you've proven shit.

And it all depends on which version of Flash, concerning his acceleration.

Concerning your Gotenks quote, Saiyan fusions are known for their arrogance.

[Keollyn]

JLU Flash would loose hard, he can get to light speed but his accelerations is faaaaar slower then comic flash, he had to lap the world several times even to gain good speed.



And you think Goku can do that AT ALL? So Flash trumps him in that respect because he actually can. Goku hasn't shown the ability to lap the Earth even IN FLIGHT.

[little nin]

flash takes this one....he owns >_>

[Phenomenol]

And you think Goku can do that AT ALL? So Flash trumps him in that respect because he actually can. Goku hasn't shown the ability to lap the Earth even IN AIR.

Goku does not need to run a marathon around the world to proove his strength.

[Keollyn]

Goku does not need to run a marathon around the world to proove his strength.

But if he's fighting someone who can, how will he hit them?

[Hangatýr]

Goku does not need to run a marathon around the world to proove his strength.
You're right, because that'd prove his speed, not his strength.

[Phenomenol]

Ever heard of reflexes?

[Keollyn]

And you think Goku's reflexes are faster than Flash's action/reaction speed?

[Hangatýr]

Ever heard of reflexes?
And do you know that reflexes depend on the neural pathways?

[Phenomenol]

And you think Goku's reflexes are faster than Flash's action/reaction speed?

Yes! I can post Flash getting his ass walloped by Gorilla Grodd, The Rogues! If Flash has such great Reflexes why did Doom Kill him with a punch?:amazed

Flash is like a candle light one blow and he's out.

[Hangatýr]

Yes! I can post Flash getting his ass walloped by Gorilla Grodd, The Rogues! If Flash has such great Reflexes why did Doom Kill him with a punch?:amazed

Flash is like a candle light one blow and he's out.
Aslong as it hasn't been stated which version of Flash is being used, you can't prove shit about his reflexes.

[Phenomenol]

Aslong as it hasn't been stated which version of Flash is being used, you can't prove shit about his reflexes.

Oh yes I can, Even the Flash from JLA has gotten physically knocked out by punches. I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight.

[Hangatýr]

Oh yes I can, Even the Flash from JLA has gotten physically knocked out by punches. I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight.
'Even the Flash from JLA'? :laugh

What about KC Flash, then? And the whole becoming intangible part?

[konflikti]

Oh yes I can, Even the Flash from JLA has gotten physically knocked out by punches. I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight.

Then go ahead. You always promise scans put never post anything.

[Phenomenol]

'Even the Flash from JLA'? :laugh

What about KC Flash, then? And the whole becoming intangible part?

Yeah, Flash can move simoutaneously between dimensions, Goku can do that too using Shunkan Idou.:)

[Keollyn]

Yes! I can post Flash getting his ass walloped by Gorilla Grodd, The Rogues! If Flash has such great Reflexes why did Doom Kill him with a punch?:amazed

Flash is like a candle light one blow and he's out.

And Goku got tagged and/or beaten by Piccolo, Radditz, Vegeta, Captain Ginyu, Frieza, Android 19, Chibi Cell, Cell, Majin Vegeta, Boo.

And how about non-canon, huh?

Android 13, Fusion Android, Kūra, Metal Kura, Burori, Janemba, Dr. Wheelo, Lord Slug and Tullece.

There's probably more. And you're telling me what about Flash again?

[Hangatýr]

Yeah, Flash can move simoutaneously between dimensions, Goku can do that too using Shunkan Idou.:)
But not continuously.

[Delta Shell]

And Goku got tagged and/or beaten by Piccolo, Radditz, Vegeta, Captain Ginyu, Frieza, Android 19, Chibi Cell, Cell, Majin Vegeta, Boo.

And how about non-canon, huh?

Android 13, Fusion Android, Kūra, Metal Kura, Burori, Janemba, Dr. Wheelo, Lord Slug and Tullece.

There's probably more. And you're telling me what about Flash again?

I don't want to get dragged into this but that isn't much of a counter. Physically speaking the people you mentioned would murder Gorilla Grodd.

[Comic Book Guy]

I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight.

Walter West.

[Keollyn]

I don't want to get dragged into this but that isn't much of a counter. Physically speaking the people you mentioned would murder Gorilla Grodd.

The point isn't in comparison of powers of the people they fought, it's to counter the claims made that Goku's nigh untouchable. You know, since he believes someone like the Flash can't touch him because of his "superb" reflexes. Which is kinda ironic... especially when none of the people Goku fights is as fast as Flash.

[Gunners]

The point isn't in comparison of powers of the people they fought, it's to counter the claims made that Goku's nigh untouchable. You know, since he believes someone like the Flash can't touch him because of his "superb" reflexes. Which is kinda ironic... especially when none of the people Goku fights is as fast as Flash.

And to counter this the people who he fights have precognition ability to somewhat fortell where abouts he is going to move, they have precognition on par with Goku so they would be able to hit him.

At the sametime im not saying flash couldn't hit Goku, it wouldn't be as easy as you make it out to be, in anycase i think Goku would just fly in the air into the clouds where the flash can not see or get to him, he would then raid the Earth from above.

[Keollyn]

And to counter this the people who he fights have precognition ability to somewhat fortell where abouts he is going to move, they have precognition on par with Goku so they would be able to hit him.

At the sametime im not saying flash couldn't hit Goku, it wouldn't be as easy as you make it out to be, in anycase i think Goku would just fly in the air into the clouds where the flash can not see or get to him, he would then raid the Earth from above.

Who the hell in DBZ have precognition?

[Comic Book Guy]

That's a bulk of the Vegito vs. Vegito topic.

[Suzumebachi]

No one had precognition....

[Phenomenol]

Yes they do, Sensing and Forseeign movements is precognition. DBZ has devine senses! This has already been prooven with the Mr. Popo, Majin Buu scans.

[Hangatýr]

Yes they do, Sensing and Forseeign movements is precognition. DBZ has devine senses! This has already been prooven with the Mr. Popo, Majin Buu scans.
Can you show me those scans?

And if I move out of the way just before someone punches me, and they miss, does that mean I have divine abilities?

[Keollyn]

Yes they do, Sensing and Forseeign movements is precognition. DBZ has devine senses! This has already been prooven with the Mr. Popo, Majin Buu scans.

Look up the ACTUAL definition of precognition first before you claim someone has it.

[escamoh]

This is gonna end up like the Superman vs Goku thread where no one is gonna agree in the end after a million pages of arguments.

[Phenomenol]

Look up the ACTUAL definition of precognition first before you claim someone has it.

I already know , it is clairvoyance! DBZ has the power to discern and anticipate objects not present to the normal senses. Now if you did not know that you know nothing of DBZ.

How in the hell do you think they can sense all over the universe or Sense stuff coming before it even happens? Seeing things at the top of Karin's tower! that is divine senses.:notrust

[Suzumebachi]

They never sense stuff before it happens. Give me an example of this.

[Hangatýr]

I already know , it is clairvoyance! DBZ has the power to discern and anticipate objects not present to the normal senses. Now if you did not know that you know nothing of DBZ.

How in the hell do you think they can sense all over the universe or Sense stuff coming before it even happens? Seeing things at the top of Karin's tower! that is divine senses.:notrust
They can't sense things all over the universe.

[Keollyn]

I already know , it is clairvoyance! DBZ has the power to discern and anticipate objects not present to the normal senses. Now if you did not know that you know nothing of DBZ.

How in the hell do you think they can sense all over the universe or Sense stuff coming before it even happens? Seeing things at the top of Karin's tower! that is divine senses.:notrust

in an inner knowledge or sense of future events.
www.angelfire.com/tx/afaceinacrowd/glossdiv.html

The present perception of future events.
www.astralvoyage.com/projection/Glossary.html

Knowing that an event will take place before it actually occurs.
magick-whispers.com/glossarypqrs.htm

Extrasensory perception of future events, usually through dreams; psychic awarness of the future.
members.ozemail.com.au/~adamndeb/Glossary.html

The paranormal awareness of future events.
www.wrexhamparaskeptics.4t.com/definitions.htm

The prediction of random events without making use of references that are perhaps present now or were present in the past.
users.skynet.be/cpso/engterm2.htm

Knowledge of pending future events.
laurelparanromal.tripod.com/id13.html

A formal statement made by a witness in response to interrogation as to what he or she intends to say in court.
hjem.get2net.dk/safsaf/glossary.html

knowledge of a future event which could not have been predicted or inferred by normal means.
www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1895/Glossary.html

anacademic term for knowledge of something in advance of itsoccurrence, especially by extrasensory perception.
www.wholeagain.com/prophecyfodor.html

picking up on events in the near and further future
www.clearstone.net/definitions.html

knowledge of an event before it occurs
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Precognition is a form of extra-sensory perception which allows a "percipient" to perceive information about future places or events before they happen (as opposed to merely predicting them based on deductive reasoning and current knowledge). A related term, presentiment is used to refer to information about future events which may not present itself in conscious form but rather in the form of emotions or feelings at the autonomic level. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precognition

All definition of Precognition. None of which anyone I recall in DBZ doing.

[Phenomenol]

They can't sense things all over the universe.

Yes they can, Goku locking on and teleporting, Majin Buu sensed Gohan way in kaioshin's world which is beyond lightyears away. Hell they can tell what's going on at Namek if they wanted too. DBZ senses are divine the yare not average senses.

[Suzumebachi]

Yes they can, Goku locking on and teleporting, The entire Z senshi sensed Freiza when he was coming to earth and he was lightyears away! Hell the ycan tell what's going on at Namek if they wanted too. DBZ senses are divine the yare not average senses.

But thats not seeing the future. Thats sensing big power levels. Just like how us normal humans can hear loud noises from far away.

[Hangatýr]

Yes they can, Goku locking on and teleporting, The entire Z senshi sensed Freiza when he was coming to earth and he was lightyears away! Hell the ycan tell what's going on at Namek if they wanted too. DBZ senses are divine the yare not average senses.
Can Goku sense an infinite distance away?

[Comic Book Guy]

I said it onc, I argued it multiple times, and I reiterate this again.

Clairvoyance IS NOT THE SAME as precognition.

[Phenomenol]

Are you guys slow or something...

Knowing that an event will take place before it actually occurs.

Majin Buu knowing that Mystic Gohan will be born even before it happens! (Gohan is on Kaioshin's planet!!!!) So he prepared himself and delayed time will fighting Gotenksu!

knowledge of a future event which could not have been predicted or inferred by normal means.

The Z senshi knowing that Freiza is still alive in the universe and is coming to earth!

knowledge of an event before it occurs

Mr. Popo training Goku! Mr. Popo knew where Goku was going to attack before he moved! Mr. Popo also did not use his eyes!!

Thanks Keollyn you actually helped me out.

[Keollyn]

None of those examples showed future sight.

[Suzumebachi]

The Z senshi knowing that Freiza is still alive in the universe and is coming to earth!


They fucking sensed his power.

[Phenomenol]

None of those examples showed future sight.

Yes it did. They knew these things would occur before it happened!:)

[warrior1000]

You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.

Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.

Now you all are in agreement that IT is fast as speed of light, so when Goku is fighting Flash, before Flash even gets to him he can IT in to the air, where Flash can not reach and blast the Earth.

[Suzumebachi]

Mr. Popo training Goku! Mr. Popo knew where Goku was going to attack before he moved! Mr. Popo also did not use his eyes!!


Mr. Popo was just a better fighter.

Are you telling me that Kakashi can see the future because he can fight with genin while reading a book?

[Keollyn]

You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.

Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.

Now you all are in agreement that IT is fast as speed of light, so when Goku is fighting Flash, before Flash even gets to him he can IT in to the air, where Flash can not reach and blast the Earth.

I guess you also think that Goku THINKS as fast as Flash does, huh?

[Suzumebachi]

What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light

But did he say it? Nope.

Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.

I don't see how any of that makes them faster than the Flash.

Now you all are in agreement that IT is fast as speed of light, so when Goku is fighting Flash, before Flash even gets to him he can IT in to the air, where Flash can not reach and blast the Earth.

Its more of a travel skill rather than a battle one. Plus, Goku has to put his fingers to his head and concentrate to do it. Flash can get to him before he pulls it off. He has a much better chance of lasting if he just flies instead of trying to teleport.

[Phenomenol]

You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.

Indeed, but Wally West has demonstrated faster than lightspedds as well!!

Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.


You are right! Krillin and Master Roshi fight only consisited of a flash of light, and they explained to the judge that they played Three games of Rock paper scissors and even sparred after that game! This is allin Dragonball i might add!:amazed

Now you all are in agreement that IT is fast as speed of light, so when Goku is fighting Flash, before Flash even gets to him he can IT in to the air, where Flash can not reach and blast the Earth.

Instant Transmisiion is not lightspeed! It transcends time and space!:)

[Hangatýr]

IT is not speed at all, it's teleportation, one that can not be kept up continuously.

[Suzumebachi]

The Flash has outraced instant travel before...

[warrior1000]

I was trying to say that Goku is not a slow poke as many of you claim, Goku can surroun himself with ki, his power, when he charges up to ssj3 is felt across the universe, i think even the flash would have a hard time killing goku with just one blow. COme on now be a little fair.

[Phenomenol]

I guess you also think that Goku THINKS as fast as Flash does, huh?

Goku does not need to think! Goku's reactions are done without thinking. Common sense, I guess you do not play any type of sports:)

[Hangatýr]

It depends on how he does it, though. We don't know if Goku's ki can prevent the Flash from vibrating through him.

[Scorpio3.14]

You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.

Wally West has gone light speed many times. First official time was in part 5 of Terminal Velocity in Issue #99 of Flash v2 where he outraced a laser beam to its target to save Linda and was absorbed into the speed force as a result. He has since done it many times more. Even Impulse has done it before, first to save Max Mercury's life and other times, like in IC to trap Superboy Prime into the speed force.

Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.

Flash has had an entire fight circiling the world literally dozens of times in a fraction of a second (his second fight with Zoom in Issue #200 of Flash v2). That trumps the Roshi and Krillian thing by a million times lol

[kombak]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v_QbMM7DICw&search=cooler%20goku

around 2min50

Goku and cooler are fighting during instant teleportation
theyre moving in a different world , its not even about speed anymore , the whole time they are in this , is 0.00000000000000001? sec in real , because vegeta is almost as strong as goku this time (the 2 ssj , still no time chamber) and he doesnt understand a damn thing

For the one who said before that they arent slowing down for the show , u can see 2 different speed in any DBZ fight

Just take the Goku vs Cell fight
There is the "show" speed , for us , to enjoy the fight

and the real speed , when we can not see goku or cell anywhere , but just the deformation in the air , and some sounds...

that is the real speed , but running a whole show with this? impossible

[Suzumebachi]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v_QbMM7DICw&search=cooler%20goku

around 2min50

Goku and cooler are fighting during instant teleportation
theyre moving in a different world , its not even about speed anymore , the whole time they are in this , is 0.00000000000000001? sec in real , because vegeta is almost as strong as goku this time (the 2 ssj , still no time chamber) and he doesnt understand a damn thing

Cooler isn't real.

[warrior1000]

IT is a speed, people don't just disapear form one place and appear at another. Unless you are saying that Goku can do magic.

[kombak]

Cooler isn't real.

Flash isnt real either u know , nor superman or Buu :p
movie until broly were about toryama storyline (broly wasnt , because goku was supposed to be the legendary super sayan)

[Phenomenol]

Wally West has gone light speed many times. First official time was in part 5 of Terminal Velocity in Issue #99 of Flash v2 where he outraced a laser beam to its target to save Linda and was absorbed into the speed force as a result. He has since done it many times more. Even Impulse has done it before, first to save Max Mercury's life and other times, like in IC to trap Superboy Prime into the speed force.

Yeah I read that issue!


Flash has had an entire fight circiling the world literally dozens of times in a fraction of a second (his second fight with Zoom in Issue #200 of Flash v2). That trumps the Roshi and Krillian thing by a million times lol

Running and fighting at the same time and combat speed is completely different! Flash's fighting movements do not even come close to Goku's..:)

Flash may travel faster than Goku he does not fight at the speeds that Goku can fight at. Flash can not hurt Goku in anyway!