Want a new liver? Get cheap ones (made in China)!

[Dionysus]

Hm. Ghoulish. I sincerely hope, if true, there is actual will to stop this. (I've heard this allegation before, and not just against the Chinese.) I don't care if you like Falun Gong or not, forced organ donation is inhuman.

China harvesting organs, Canadians say
Report says Falun Gong practitioners are targeted for involuntary transplants

OTTAWA — A former federal cabinet minister and a prominent lawyer will report today that they have found credible evidence that the organs of Falun Gong adherents in China are being harvested for paid transplants, and will call for international pressure to stop it.

The report, by former Liberal cabinet minister David Kilgour and Winnipeg immigration and rights lawyer David Matas, will call for international human-rights organizations to take the allegations seriously, and for governments and international bodies to shun China's burgeoning transplant industry until it is stopped.

"Alarming is an understatement," Mr. Kilgour said yesterday. "We simply can come to no other conclusion than that this is going on, on a large scale. That vital organs are being taken from people involuntarily in large numbers.

"All of the 'donors' -- in quotation marks -- are killed in process. Because they don't just take one of your kidneys. From what we've learned, they take both of your kidneys, and anything else that anybody might want."

Many of the alleged victims are in prisons.

Falun Gong practitioners have pressed claims, which China has denied, that their adherents are being used as living organ stocks for transplant centres that offer quick supply of organs to foreign and Chinese people who are willing to pay.

U.S. State Department officials have expressed concern over the allegations, but said they are unable to verify them. The United Nations' Special Rapporteur on Torture, Manfred Nowak, said in April he is trying to investigate the claims.

Mr. Kilgour, Canada's former secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific region, said that he and Mr. Matas conducted their two-month investigation through interviews with people in Canada, the United States, Europe and Australia, but they were not able to get a visa to visit China.

Some interviewees were Falun Gong practitioners, but many others were not, Mr. Kilgour said. One woman reported that her husband, a doctor, had taken 2,000 corneas from Falun Gong practitioners over a two-year period.

The investigation also included recorded phone calls -- something like a sting operation -- in which callers asked officials at Chinese institutions about obtaining a kidney or a liver for a relative.

"Probably our most damaging evidence for the government of China is the conversations that some of their officials in jails, and hospitals, and even one of the courts, had with people . . . about how they could get organs from Falun Gong practitioners," Mr. Kilgour said.

"The person will say yes -- in one case I'm thinking of, they say, we've got five or six of them here available, and they're in their 30s, and they're male, so come and sort of pick one out."

Mr. Kilgour said the report will call for criminal authorities to investigate the allegations for possible prosecution, for human-rights organizations with more resources to conduct their own investigations, and for governments to press for a UN human-rights investigation.

It will also call for governments to shun China's rapidly growing transplant industry, refusing visas to Chinese doctors seeking to travel abroad for transplant training, toughen laws to require doctors to report evidence that patients have received trafficked organs, and prevent or discourage their own citizens from travelling to China for transplants.

The millions of adherents of the Falun Gong movement -- called a meditation practice by some but a religion by others -- are viewed with deep suspicion by the Chinese government.

China denies the many claims of persecution, but its official media portray Falun Gong as a dangerous cult, and Mr. Kilgour said there can be no doubt there has been a massive "propaganda" campaign to discredit it.

Source (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060706.wxfalun06/BNStory/International/home)

[Parell]

O_O

People actually do this? It sorta reminds me of that movie "The Island."

[narutosimpson]

I've been wanting to make a thread about organ harvesting, I think it's the most disgusting thing. It's not only like "frankenstein", with science going insane, it is literally Frankenstein, building healthy people out of dying ones.

China harvests organs from anybody, especially enemies of the state. Prisoners on death row, Falun gong, poor people in the rural areas. It's disgusting, and the market price is outrageous.

Does the article mention that these are usually taken while alive, to preserve the organ better?

And it's not just organs, it's bones too! they can be transplanted, even from dead people. Most of the body can be recycled for money, lot's of money!! This is frightening if someone has bad intentions for u and wants to make money too.

I plan to die in 2 ways to avoid body harvesting (note how I bring up my right to determine my death method). Either of such old age that my organs and bones will be useless to anybody. Or boiled in acid, same result.....:amazed

[Dionysus]

Does the article mention that these are usually taken while alive, to preserve the organ better?
Yes. (Didn't you read it? It's not long...) They called up to "order" some from officials. It sounds like picking out a lobster or something like that.

It mentions that it's common to take two kidneys, things that KILL YOU. Corneas, so people are then blind. Bad bad bad.

[Insipidipity]

I've been wanting to make a thread about organ harvesting, I think it's the most disgusting thing. It's not only like "frankenstein", with science going insane, it is literally Frankenstein, building healthy people out of dying ones.

China harvests organs from anybody, especially enemies of the state. Prisoners on death row, Falun gong, poor people in the rural areas. It's disgusting, and the market price is outrageous.

Does the article mention that these are usually taken while alive, to preserve the organ better?

And it's not just organs, it's bones too! they can be transplanted, even from dead people. Most of the body can be recycled for money, lot's of money!! This is frightening if someone has bad intentions for u and wants to make money too.

I plan to die in 2 ways to avoid body harvesting (note how I bring up my right to determine my death method). Either of such old age that my organs and bones will be useless to anybody. Or boiled in acid, same result.....:amazed
Well for starters, it's not "science", it's "medicine". Secondly, they're not really dying(they die afterwards but they weren't dying before the operation), they're being killed for their beliefs.

Secondly, yes, it does mention they are still alive(you could try reading it...it's right there). If you're going to kill someone for their organs, of course that would be the best way to do it...who would kill someone long before giving the organs away?

Another thing, I would rather die and have my organs still useful to others...once I'm dead I have no use for them...I'd keep them while I'm still alive though. That's what the organ donor programs are for.
I don't see the point in making sure a dying person can't use my organs that I have no use for...

[narutosimpson]

Another thing, I would rather die and have my organs still useful to others...once I'm dead I have no use for them...I'd keep them while I'm still alive though. That's what the organ donor programs are for.
I don't see the point in making sure a dying person can't use my organs that I have no use for...

I did read the article, and it emphasizes falun gong, not all the harvestees in general. Also it doesn't explicitly state the organs are taken while alive, but picking ur organ harvestee like a lobster sort of implies that :P

Anyway, I would n't want my organs to go to anybody because it's too much of a big business, and it nauseates me to think that people look at my organs and see dollar signs as soon as i begin to expire :crys

besides, haven't u heard of the urban legend of waking in the bathtub with a message on the mirror that says ur kidney was taken out? The black market of organ harvesting will make things like this a reality.

[Insipidipity]

Anyway, I would n't want my organs to go to anybody because it's too much of a big business, and it nauseates me to think that people look at my organs and see dollar signs as soon as i begin to expire :crys

besides, haven't u heard of the urban legend of waking in the bathtub with a message on the mirror that says ur kidney was taken out? The black market of organ harvesting will make things like this a reality.
If they wanted to, you'd have no choice, you wouldn't be able to choose acid or old age. Therefore, if you dead of natural causes, or had a choice in your death, there's no reason to worry about being killed alive...

If it's about the business side...so what? So you'd rather someone die than someone looking at your organs as a source of income?

[narutosimpson]

If they wanted to, you'd have no choice, you wouldn't be able to choose acid or old age. Therefore, if you dead of natural causes, or had a choice in your death, there's no reason to worry about being killed alive...

If it's about the business side...so what? So you'd rather someone die than someone looking at your organs as a source of income?
this post language puzzles me...

anyway, yes , organs being a commodity bothers me. Dying isn't linked with having my organs as a source of income. It's ok when the organs are donated from one person to another who needs it in good spirit, but it's different when ur organs are taken for sale to the highest bidder, it's just wicked..

[Dionysus]

You two are steering a bit off topic, and it may confuse some people. The issue here is forced organ donation while the victim is alive and healthy. Criminals, dissidents, random people being harvested.

Whether one should donate in advance for when one is a lifeless bag of meat (or is forced to post mortem) is a separate issue.

[Ryphan]

Chinese people are very tiny. So their tiny livers wouldn't work for me, sadly.

[NU-KazeKage]

Chinese people are very tiny. So their tiny livers wouldn't work for me, sadly.
lol wtf ...anyways the forced part really sucks ..but if its death row prisoners who have been convicted and are going to die any way put thier useless bodys to some use...and before people get mad at me , no i didnt read the whole thing , so i missed the point of the thread sry

[narutosimpson]

well, in the US, prisoners are not allowed to donate there organs , because the decision to donate organs requires being free to choose not to, and being in prison sways there judgement too much, some such thing.

Anyway, I think it's wrong, and i think there is a business to this wrong. It will create a black market which will create even more wrong. Gross

[Kero-Chan]

Chinese people are very tiny. So their tiny livers wouldn't work for me, sadly.
Thanks for being a bit racist there.
And back-on-topic, I wounldnt want a prisioners one, cause they smoke and drink and it jacks up the organ.

[Nico]

Wow. Strange.

This is new to me. I don't agree with just selling a liver away. A prisioner organ would just scare me.

[Sprint]

Wow...that is so messed up.

[avraell]

More apathy from me, if you go to most ex-Soviet countries and have a kid, watch them. This is not so promienent now, but about five years ago thousands of children got kidnapped and killed for organs. Of course the government doing it is a bit different than individuals...

[pi321]

bah...its all a lie! I mean cmon...do u seriously believe those canadians?!? Didnt you know that they have a super-secret-mind-control-machine hidden in Little Canadia??? You people sure are gullible

[OtacontheOtaku]

It's kind of sad this is news. The whole reason the Chinese economy has been booming is because of China's complete lack of human rights. They slaughter their citizens on a daily basis, they hate Falun Gong, and are seriously anti-west right now. Everyone worries about North Korea and Iran, it's rediculous. North Korea is run by a mentally insane dwarf, they can't do a damn thing. They might fire one nuke, but that would be the only nuke they ever got to fire. China on the other hand is a serious threat. They are on the fast track to becoming a superpower (we're talking about as early as 2015 here) and they are going to be our number one competitor in the world market. If our government doesn't fix our economic model, and fast, China will surpass our GNP and we will be completely fucked. If China can outproduce us... the US will lose it's dominance over the world, and that's going to negatively effect everyone.

[Cece]

Ya I'm pretty sure that the Canadian article has a lot of bias but I think it's common knowledge that as an extra punishment for people on death row, they would take some organs... Of course It's not a good thing :( And banning organ transplants from China would be good... But then that would mean that the US and Germany would have to ban organ transplants from Israel as well. (Which they won't do)

I mean, atleast China takes the organs from the people on death row, ones that are about to die very soon but then Israel forcefully takes organs w/o a reason... (btw, I'm pretty sure I can't find a very reputable source like the BBC saying exactly that Israel does this, but sources like the BBC have hinted it, plus it's common knowledge in Turkey that Israel does such transplants.)

[Mizoguchi]

I don't know if I'd want it but some may.

[OtacontheOtaku]

Ya I'm pretty sure that the Canadian article has a lot of bias but I think it's common knowledge that as an extra punishment for people on death row, they would take some organs... Of course It's not a good thing :( And banning organ transplants from China would be good... But then that would mean that the US and Germany would have to ban organ transplants from Israel as well. (Which they won't do)

I mean, atleast China takes the organs from the people on death row, ones that are about to die very soon but then Israel forcefully takes organs w/o a reason... (btw, I'm pretty sure I can't find a very reputable source like the BBC saying exactly that Israel does this, but sources like the BBC have hinted it, plus it's common knowledge in Turkey that Israel does such transplants.)

...um... I can't tell if this is a joke or not. In case it isn't... Falun Gong practictioners aren't commiting any kind of crime other than the free practice of religion. They aren't putting these people up for a trial, they just throw them in a cold dark cell and pull them out when they're ready to murder them. The Chinese government is one of the greatest evils around in the world today.

[avraell]

The Chinese government is one of the greatest evils around in the world today.

I would appreciate some elaboration on this if you have time. I don't really know much about China at the moment, so if you do, it would be awsome if you said more. In this thread, or maybe start one, doesn't matter. I think the organ subject is exausted anyway for the time being.

[cursemagician]

you can get anything in china.

[That NOS Guy]

I would appreciate some elaboration on this if you have time. I don't really know much about China at the moment, so if you do, it would be awsome if you said more. In this thread, or maybe start one, doesn't matter. I think the organ subject is exausted anyway for the time being.

Dude, it's a facist police state, it's hard to top that. It says something when you have to go to Saudi Arabia to find more tyrannical governments, and even then it's a toss-up!

China has censorship so bad logging onto the net you're greeted with cartoon police officers who remind you you can and will be watched.

[AssFace]

^Where you get these facts? Honestly, I used to believe all this until I really went to China, and everything seemed okay to me. I never see anybody complaining really.

[Balthamos]

I think that disturbing generally, Accuately doing that..err...just Wow 0_0;
I am sure thats just, well wrong. meh, I dont know whats wrong or right in this world now anyways, but I know thats wrong 0_o;;

[sexcrave]

i don't think it is the chinese government who is doing this but some of the provincial governments. and btw i think this happened a few years ago... im not saying that this is not happening now but please you see.. they are exaggerating... look at those falunggung websites.. they repeat themselves over and over again eg " they beat me with a electric baton and shoved a hot iron rod into my vagina"
if you are saying that the chinese government is evil how about the united states.. people are strip searched on the streets!
the chinese government cares about it's citizens, eg. teaching people how to have safe sex .. and about internet censoring, some sites are only censored in some provinces... like bejing,,,, if you go to Shanghai you can even watch porn...

[The Pink Ninja]

There's certainly a derth of knowledge about China in here. Yes it's a tyranical dictatorship but it's still better that the rest of it;s type and several democracies.

*Waits for Mizura to come in here and kick all your asses*

[Mizura]

^ TPN, what a coincidence. >_>

It's kind of sad this is news. The whole reason the Chinese economy has been booming is because of China's complete lack of human rights.
Um, no. The whole reason the Chinese economy has been booming is because the Government is actually doing a good job.

They slaughter their citizens on a daily basis
They don't "slaughter their citizens on a daily basis" anymore than the US does. =_= The average Chinese citizen lives just fine. In a country as large as China, it is difficult for it to make sure all laws are being respected in provincial regions, this is something they're trying to work on but it's still not easy, but I believe that unlike some governments, the Chinese central government is motivated by the genuine desire of making China better. The fact that China has been doing so well is imo testament to how well they've done. Recently they've even arrested the vice-mayor of Beijing on corruption charges, and have sentenced another high-ranking official to death for more corruption charges. How many governments have you seen go that high?

The Chinese government is no joke. They all have beds in their own offices because they might have to work overnight so just stay there. My family knows a few people from the government as well, and ye gods, I pity them. They look constantly sickly because of lack of sleep, one of them meets his wife only once a week because he's stuck working in his office the rest of the time.

they hate Falun Gong
Because it's a damn sect. Of course, the Government's overreaction to it is imo completely stupid, but it's still a damn sect like the Christian Identity or the Church of Scientology is. It even states that you shouldn't go to the hospital and typical sect-ish things like that. And you have plenty of freedom of religion in China as long as you keep it private and just Shut Up. Unfortunately, the Fa Long Gong people decided to make it political and take it to the streets for some stupid reason. You don't see the thousands of people practicing taichi in the morning persecuted.

and are seriously anti-west right now.
No it isn't. =_=

China on the other hand is a serious threat. They are on the fast track to becoming a superpower (we're talking about as early as 2015 here) and they are going to be our number one competitor in the world market. If our government doesn't fix our economic model, and fast, China will surpass our GNP and we will be completely fucked. If China can outproduce us... the US will lose it's dominance over the world, and that's going to negatively effect everyone.
Oh yay, here's the True reason people are worried about China then! Because it's a growing Economic super-power! What does this have to do with human rights though?

China has censorship so bad logging onto the net you're greeted with cartoon police officers who remind you you can and will be watched.
Have you ever LIVED in China? What kind of stupid sources are you reading? China's censor system is in no way that ridiculous. When a site is blocked, you're simply unable to open it. They want it to go unnoticed, not publicize the fact too much. :notrust

It's a huge nuisance yes, but just about every Chinese has learned to use proxies. Basically, the Chinese government is doing amazingly well on a number of fronts, but on this front, they're basically a bunch of paranoid old sods who've apparently never used a computer or internet in their lives (50 years-old is considered young in the government...), and the dumb thing is that they're blocking off a too big number of non-threatening sites as a result, which is bad for the economy as people can't work correctly under such conditions, bleh.

That said, there's censorship Everywhere, even in the US, just of different forms: in the US, it's hidden under the guise of "patriotism" (ho, I still remember Very well back when Bush claimed that those who didn't back the war in Iraq were bad Americans, nevermind that Americans had the perfect right to an opinion. Did I mention the current new laws restricting civil liberties in the US?), or "Sorry sir, we no longer want to publish your articles." (I know a person who met up with that situation)

Overall, in China:

- there's plenty of freedom of expression. Ask a taxi driver and he'll start complaining all his heart's content. The thing that's lacking though is freedom to Publish, but generally speaking the Chinese don't live in an oppressed way. Most of them are happily chatting over mobile phones or living their own lives. It's Precisely because people Are talking freely that the Government is afraid and is trying to censor everything.

- there's plenty of freedom of religion actually, as long as you shut Up about it. Every park you look there are dozens of practioners of traditional chinese exercises in the morning everywhere. Hell it's encouraged. And for every persecuted Christian, there are millions that worship pretty much openly. There's no problem about it as long as you shut up about it and don't make it political. The problem is that Fa Long Gong DID make it political, the morons (and the Chinese Government = bigger morons for overreacting).

- there's plenty of... everything. Hell, porn. I can go out right this instant, and come back with cheap porn DVDs in under 10 minutes, with no problem in sight. There's even a hip gay bar downstairs. My parents went several times and said that it was great fun (uh, they're not gay though).

Overall, an increasing number of Chinese live just about the same lifestyle as western kids do. They go on the internet, they chat with friends, they wear t-shirts, they make money, the lot. There are still a lot of problems, but China is doing DAMN well. My father came to China 20 years ago. Back then the Chinese and the foreigners were not allowed to mingle, all the Chinese dressed the same, there were no entertainment venues in sight. Things have changed a LOT since. People forget how long it took Europe and the US to get this far: how long did it take for them to abolish slavery? Racism? Grant freedom of religion? Equality between genders? 60 years ago China still had an emperor. Things have changed Really fast.

Oh yeah, on topic. I really doubt the Chinese central government would have allowed illegal organ harvests off people who aren't on the death row (those who Are on the death row apparently do get their organs harvested after execution though). But as I've said, given how big China is, and how fast it had to set everything up, there's still a lot of corruption going on on the provincial level. Keeping note on what 1.3 billion people are doing several hundred kilometers away is simply a darn huge task. Consider everything China has to take care of in one go:
- infrastructure
- public health system
- liberalization of the economy
- education
- small and medium enterprises
- appropriate regulations for just about every darn industry
- science and technology
- whatever

There's simply so much that needs to be done and is going on that it's mind-boggling. Even the US and European countries have problems with many of these aspects. Nevermind a developing country like China.

[OtacontheOtaku]

i don't think it is the chinese government who is doing this but some of the provincial governments. and btw i think this happened a few years ago... im not saying that this is not happening now but please you see.. they are exaggerating... look at those falunggung websites.. they repeat themselves over and over again eg " they beat me with a electric baton and shoved a hot iron rod into my vagina"
if you are saying that the chinese government is evil how about the united states.. people are strip searched on the streets!
the chinese government cares about it's citizens, eg. teaching people how to have safe sex .. and about internet censoring, some sites are only censored in some provinces... like bejing,,,, if you go to Shanghai you can even watch porn...

Actually it is the head government that's perpetrating these acts. You can actually order organs straight from Beijing through one of their shipping services. This is not an exaggeration. The Chinese government has been kicking out the poor from their homes in order to develop new land for wealthier Chinese. Not only that, but if the poor try to resist, the Chinese Special Police step in and beat the living shit out of anyone who even smells like rebellion. Read the Canadian expose coming out on these travesties.

Now, don't talk about America like you know this country. When you are talking about strip searching on the streets, no one is ever stripped naked, sometimes down to their underwear, and that's only in bad neighborhoods when the cops are afraid to actually go into the kid's pockets. Also, America's been teaching it's people to have save sex since the early 1900s. Don't act like it's somehow special. Now for the most important part of your post, don't even say the words "internet censorship" around me. Censorship is one of the most disgusting things a government can impose. In our time it's the fastest route to a fascist state. The Chinese will not allow anyone to say anything politcally dissenting, which is the main reason why you don't get to hear about the abuses of the government. They just don't allow their people to.

Um, no. The whole reason the Chinese economy has been booming is because the Government is actually doing a good job.


Alright, go to the areas the government is siezing and kicking out honest citizens. Then tell me that government isn't violating every code of human rights imaginable.


They don't "slaughter their citizens on a daily basis" anymore than the US does. =_= The average Chinese citizen lives just fine. In a country as large as China, it is difficult for it to make sure all laws are being respected in provincial regions, this is something they're trying to work on but it's still not easy, but I believe that unlike some governments, the Chinese central government is motivated by the genuine desire of making China better. The fact that China has been doing so well is imo testament to how well they've done. Recently they've even arrested the vice-mayor of Beijing on corruption charges, and have sentenced another high-ranking official to death for more corruption charges. How many governments have you seen go that high?

The Chinese government is no joke. They all have beds in their own offices because they might have to work overnight so just stay there. My family knows a few people from the government as well, and ye gods, I pity them. They look constantly sickly because of lack of sleep, one of them meets his wife only once a week because he's stuck working in his office the rest of the time.

Listen friend, the easter coast of China is actually civilized. You have to get past the high-rises to see where the pain of the Chinese citizens really is.

Enlighten yourself with this video you actually do need to watch, this is the reality for millions of Chinese: The Secret Behind China's Booming Economy (http://prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/170406China.htm)

I can't understand how anyone could support a fascist government anyway.


Because it's a damn sect. Of course, the Government's overreaction to it is imo completely stupid, but it's still a damn sect like the Christian Identity or the Church of Scientology is. It even states that you shouldn't go to the hospital and typical sect-ish things like that. And you have plenty of freedom of religion in China as long as you keep it private and just Shut Up. Unfortunately, the Fa Long Gong people decided to make it political and take it to the streets for some stupid reason. You don't see the thousands of people practicing taichi in the morning persecuted.

It's a religion centered around spiritualism that's been derived from Buddhism. It focuses on ancient practices such as qui gong. It doesn't say you shouldn't go to hospitals, it just says you can cultivate your spirit better by meditating and thus heal yourself easier. And no, you don't have plenty of freedom of religion in China. If you aren't able to openly practice, that's not freedom. If you're American... I am pretty horrified you would say something like that. Taichi isn't a religion. It's regarded as a health exercise by the government. Thousands of Christians are arrested every year in China just for freely practicing their religion.

No it isn't. =_=

For the last decade China has been becoming more and more homogonized. You have no idea how hard it is for a westerner to travel to mainland China these days.

Oh yay, here's the True reason people are worried about China then! Because it's a growing Economic super-power! What does this have to do with human rights though?

You clearly are pro-chinese government and pro-chinese business, which is just idiotic. The country has a running human rights record as appauling as Germany's but it's people who are suffering don't have the means to tell enough people outside of China about it. The way Chinese companies acquire new products is they steal patents from American and British comapnies. This you can't even deny. China is universally hated in American and Birtish big-business because of their underhanded business practices. That's why so many people are nervous about the growing Chinese economy. They have no morals whatsoever. If they're abusing their own people, they aren't going to give two shits about citizens from another country. Even though China only has a nuclear stock-pile of somewhere between 200-300 nukes and one of the most poorly organized militaries on the planet, that could easily change over the next decade as they once again reach economic frugality through the only means they know how.


there's plenty of freedom of expression. Ask a taxi driver and he'll start complaining all his heart's content. The thing that's lacking though is freedom to Publish, but generally speaking the Chinese don't live in an oppressed way. Most of them are happily chatting over mobile phones or living their own lives. It's Precisely because people Are talking freely that the Government is afraid and is trying to censor everything.

You are talking about Chinese that have money. The government loooooves money. Those people live their happy lives, but the second they cross the government they have everything they own seized and they are locked up. Fascism relies heavily on the government's ability to control the media, which the Chinese government does a sadistically impecable job of doing.

there's plenty of freedom of religion actually, as long as you shut Up about it. Every park you look there are dozens of practioners of traditional chinese exercises in the morning everywhere. Hell it's encouraged. And for every persecuted Christian, there are millions that worship pretty much openly. There's no problem about it as long as you shut up about it and don't make it political. The problem is that Fa Long Gong DID make it political, the morons (and the Chinese Government = bigger morons for overreacting).

It's absolutely disgusting that you say people shouldn't be allowed to talk about their religions. It's actually pretty unbelievable you act like Falun Gong didn't have their rights. Their organs are being harvested as we speak and all you can say is, "oh, got what they deserved, poor chinese government for having to deal with their insolence".


Finally, problems such as illegal organ harvesting aren't provincial level problems. If the government isn't stopping them, there's a problem. China has been becoming a more and more serious threat. They just don't give a damn about your civil liberties if you don't have money. I'm sure you love China because your parents have money, but the greater portion of the Chinese people don't. The Chinese government doesn't allow that kind of suffering and oppression to be taped or photographed. They especially won't let it anywhere near the television or the internet. You may only see the happy-go-lucky side of China, but that doesn't mean these horrific experiences don't happen everyday. I have a feeling that if you lived in Nazi Germany, you would have said that the Nazis weren't slaughtering Jews everyday, they were just doing a good job with the economy.

[sexcrave]

the nazis slaughtered the jews because they circumcise themselves

[sexcrave]

^ TPN, what a coincidence. >_>


Um, no. The whole reason the Chinese economy has been booming is because the Government is actually doing a good job.


They don't "slaughter their citizens on a daily basis" anymore than the US does. =_= The average Chinese citizen lives just fine. In a country as large as China, it is difficult for it to make sure all laws are being respected in provincial regions, this is something they're trying to work on but it's still not easy, but I believe that unlike some governments, the Chinese central government is motivated by the genuine desire of making China better. The fact that China has been doing so well is imo testament to how well they've done. Recently they've even arrested the vice-mayor of Beijing on corruption charges, and have sentenced another high-ranking official to death for more corruption charges. How many governments have you seen go that high?

The Chinese government is no joke. They all have beds in their own offices because they might have to work overnight so just stay there. My family knows a few people from the government as well, and ye gods, I pity them. They look constantly sickly because of lack of sleep, one of them meets his wife only once a week because he's stuck working in his office the rest of the time.


Because it's a damn sect. Of course, the Government's overreaction to it is imo completely stupid, but it's still a damn sect like the Christian Identity or the Church of Scientology is. It even states that you shouldn't go to the hospital and typical sect-ish things like that. And you have plenty of freedom of religion in China as long as you keep it private and just Shut Up. Unfortunately, the Fa Long Gong people decided to make it political and take it to the streets for some stupid reason. You don't see the thousands of people practicing taichi in the morning persecuted.


No it isn't. =_=


Oh yay, here's the True reason people are worried about China then! Because it's a growing Economic super-power! What does this have to do with human rights though?


Have you ever LIVED in China? What kind of stupid sources are you reading? China's censor system is in no way that ridiculous. When a site is blocked, you're simply unable to open it. They want it to go unnoticed, not publicize the fact too much. :notrust

It's a huge nuisance yes, but just about every Chinese has learned to use proxies. Basically, the Chinese government is doing amazingly well on a number of fronts, but on this front, they're basically a bunch of paranoid old sods who've apparently never used a computer or internet in their lives (50 years-old is considered young in the government...), and the dumb thing is that they're blocking off a too big number of non-threatening sites as a result, which is bad for the economy as people can't work correctly under such conditions, bleh.

That said, there's censorship Everywhere, even in the US, just of different forms: in the US, it's hidden under the guise of "patriotism" (ho, I still remember Very well back when Bush claimed that those who didn't back the war in Iraq were bad Americans, nevermind that Americans had the perfect right to an opinion. Did I mention the current new laws restricting civil liberties in the US?), or "Sorry sir, we no longer want to publish your articles." (I know a person who met up with that situation)

Overall, in China:

- there's plenty of freedom of expression. Ask a taxi driver and he'll start complaining all his heart's content. The thing that's lacking though is freedom to Publish, but generally speaking the Chinese don't live in an oppressed way. Most of them are happily chatting over mobile phones or living their own lives. It's Precisely because people Are talking freely that the Government is afraid and is trying to censor everything.

- there's plenty of freedom of religion actually, as long as you shut Up about it. Every park you look there are dozens of practioners of traditional chinese exercises in the morning everywhere. Hell it's encouraged. And for every persecuted Christian, there are millions that worship pretty much openly. There's no problem about it as long as you shut up about it and don't make it political. The problem is that Fa Long Gong DID make it political, the morons (and the Chinese Government = bigger morons for overreacting).

- there's plenty of... everything. Hell, porn. I can go out right this instant, and come back with cheap porn DVDs in under 10 minutes, with no problem in sight. There's even a hip gay bar downstairs. My parents went several times and said that it was great fun (uh, they're not gay though).

Overall, an increasing number of Chinese live just about the same lifestyle as western kids do. They go on the internet, they chat with friends, they wear t-shirts, they make money, the lot. There are still a lot of problems, but China is doing DAMN well. My father came to China 20 years ago. Back then the Chinese and the foreigners were not allowed to mingle, all the Chinese dressed the same, there were no entertainment venues in sight. Things have changed a LOT since. People forget how long it took Europe and the US to get this far: how long did it take for them to abolish slavery? Racism? Grant freedom of religion? Equality between genders? 60 years ago China still had an emperor. Things have changed Really fast.

Oh yeah, on topic. I really doubt the Chinese central government would have allowed illegal organ harvests off people who aren't on the death row (those who Are on the death row apparently do get their organs harvested after execution though). But as I've said, given how big China is, and how fast it had to set everything up, there's still a lot of corruption going on on the provincial level. Keeping note on what 1.3 billion people are doing several hundred kilometers away is simply a darn huge task. Consider everything China has to take care of in one go:
- infrastructure
- public health system
- liberalization of the economy
- education
- small and medium enterprises
- appropriate regulations for just about every darn industry
- science and technology
- whatever

There's simply so much that needs to be done and is going on that it's mind-boggling. Even the US and European countries have problems with many of these aspects. Nevermind a developing country like China.

thank you..........................

[Mizura]

Actually it is the head government that's perpetrating these acts.
Go ahead, show me proof that these aren't legally harvested organs.

The Chinese government has been kicking out the poor from their homes in order to develop new land for wealthier Chinese.
- many of those being kicked out are illegal residents
- many of those do get relocated to better places
- some do not. But this is actually illegal and the work of corrupt lower officers that don't compensate the people properly. Because yes, they Are supposed to compensate. The government has stepped up laws to try to address this property taking problem.
- have you actually Seen some of the places that are being destroyed? Those places are Slumps. Period. Some are one-roomers of 5 square meters with no bathroom.

Censorship is one of the most disgusting things a government can impose.
No it isn't. Hunger, proverty, lack of education and basic hygiene are worse. Most western people don't even Care about politics as long as they get the basics. The right to live a decent life is superior to the right to complain. In the meantime, millions of Americans are also living below the poverty line, and who's complaining about that?

Alright, go to the areas the government is siezing and kicking out honest citizens. Then tell me that government isn't violating every code of human rights imaginable.
I can think of much, much worse human right violations. Like Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, while we're at it.

Listen friend, the easter coast of China is actually civilized. You have to get past the high-rises to see where the pain of the Chinese citizens really is.
Listen friend, I've been to central China, and the bottom line is that on most fronts, the Chinese are Much better off than they were 20 years ago. It's hard to see how far China has come unless you look at how bad things were before.

It's a religion centered around spiritualism that's been derived from Buddhism.
It's a sect that makes a ridiculous mix of Qi Gong, Buddhism and whatnot. It's like telling someone to mix Christianism and Jewism, or the likes: you don't DO that. I speak as someone who DOES know Qi Gong and who Does learn Tai Chi and who knows Buddhism as well.

And no, you don't have plenty of freedom of religion in China. If you aren't able to openly practice, that's not freedom.
You ARE able to openly practice. That's the whole point. There are Christian churches in China and most people can go to them freely. People go to bouddhist temples every day. There are some abuses on provincial levels but on the whole those abuses are illegal and the average Chinese can be Christian and go to Church without any problem whatsoever.

For the last decade China has been becoming more and more homogonized. You have no idea how hard it is for a westerner to travel to mainland China these days.
I AM a westerner you dimwit. I'm Belgian, and I can name hundreds of foreigners here in Beijing with no problems.

You clearly are pro-chinese government and pro-chinese business, which is just idiotic.
I'm pro-China. I don't care about the government but it Is doing a good job on most fronts.

20 years ago China and India had the same per capita income. Now China has twice the per capita income that India has. Hundreds of millions of Chinese now live lifestyles close to western levels, and the rest of China is slowly benefiting as well. Now you can find just about anything in China, people are allowed to dress freely, people complain freely about the government (as long as they don't publish it, but they complain talk about it with no fear in their voices), there are more and more foreigners, they have entertainment levels close to western countries, they have nicer homes with hygiene and air conditioning, etc, etc. My biggest shock recently was when I went to Chongqin, which is located in central China, and found a city very much like Hong Kong.

The country has a running human rights record as appauling as Germany's
We're talking about a developing country, and if you want human rights, look at how long it took the US to abolish slavery and racism.

The way Chinese companies acquire new products is they steal patents from American and British companies. This you can't even deny.
And what does this have to do with human rights? IPR is a serious issue, but not just because of foreign companies: it's also posing problems to Chinese companies, and because of this last point the Government is finally beginning to pay attention.

More than American and British companies are involved by the way, you forgot the rest of Europe. The US and the UK don't stand out the most.

China is universally hated in American and Birtish big-business because of their underhanded business practices.
Guess what? It's actually the same EVERYWHERE. The big oil companies in Iraq just Happen to be buddy-buddy with the President. It just Happens that most of the government funds they've received went into management. It just Happens that big oils stil receive subsidies while developers of alternative energies suffer because the Government refuses to recognize 90% of scientific reports pointing to global warming. It just happens that over half of agriculture subsidies go to a handful of farmers earning US$10 million a year or more: why the hell do They need subsidies? Oh yeah, they're buddy buddy. It just happens that since 9/11, the per-person government spending on security has actually gone Down (something like that) because every town and village argued that it's just as much at risk as New York, and politicians decide to agree because it benefits their voting agenda.

Corruption is also a known feature in India, it's a known feature in just about any developing country. But China has successfully lifted hundreds of millions of people out of proverty and given them decent housing, decent education, decent just about everything: THAT's human rights as well. Some poor people in the US don't even get access to clean water. How is That human rights? And as for elections, what about the Florida fiasco?

Even though China only has a nuclear stock-pile of somewhere between 200-300 nukes and one of the most poorly organized militaries on the planet, that could easily change over the next decade as they once again reach economic frugality through the only means they know how.
China's military is no threat to the world because China has no military ambitions. The US spends more on its military than the next 10 countries combined, Bush had thrown the anti-ballistic treaty it had with Russia out the window so he can get more nuclear weapons built. In the meantime, the more economic relations it builds with other countries, the more China thinks twice before doing something rash (unlike say... North Korea).

You are talking about Chinese that have money.
I'm talking about a taxi driver. I'm talking about "ayis" (maids). I'm talking about all the little folks here.

[Mizura]

The government loooooves money.
The government loooooves when everybody has enough money to buy the basic necessities such as food, clothing, living area, etc.

but the second they cross the government they have everything they own seized and they are locked up.
The "second" the "second". People aren't locked up for complaining once or twice. They're locked up when they start entire demonstration movements.

It's absolutely disgusting that you say people shouldn't be allowed to talk about their religions.
They are allowed to talk about their religions. :notrust But it's a private matter and should stay that way.

It's actually pretty unbelievable you act like Falun Gong didn't have their rights.
Falun Gong is a stupid sect that made the issue of being officially recognized political for some stupid reason. The Government was even More stupid for overreacting when it could simply have ignored them.

You can argue the definition of "sect" all you want, but even international newspapers have picked up on things wrong (because yes, I don't read Chinese newspapers myself, I read the International press). In the International Herald Tribune (based in US, nothing to do with China, not above reporting human rights problems in China either), there was once this tiny article on Falun Gong hidden in a corner instead of splashed in the middle of the first page like they do when Falun Gong activists are arrested: it stated how several Falun Gong practioners had burned themselves up in the middle of Tiananmen. They told the newspaper that according to their beliefs, their practice should keep them safe from the flames and that they should have went to the heavens (or something like that) instead of well... burning (they were saved in time).

They're sects. Like the Christian Identity or the Church of Scientology. They should never have been taken seriously, by the Chinese Government or anybody else.

Finally, problems such as illegal organ harvesting aren't provincial level problems. If the government isn't stopping them, there's a problem.
You think they Aren't trying to stop corruption? Several provincial-level officials have already been executed for corruption, high-level officials have been sent into jail. But we're talking about dozens of different fields accross thousands of provinces. The central government has to worry about corruption on every level from illegal land appropriation to bad hospital conditions to illegal government procurement to diversion of funds from projects to pockets from anything you can name. China's government is simply not efficient right now, it's this big bulky and outdated thing that needs a Hell lot of reforms and is under-powered where self-monitoring is concerned. The high-level government can't make visit trips to every single village out there.

They just don't give a damn about your civil liberties if you don't have money.
And more and more people Do have money: money to buy food, money to buy drinks, money to buy a place to live, money for education.

I'm sure you love China because your parents have money, but the greater portion of the Chinese people don't.
I love China because I actually Talk to all these people (there are a fair bunch of immigrants you know), and whereas before, they all dressed alike, had to wait in long ques to get food or whatever, you name it, nowadays their living standards have been on the whole improving. My mother is Chinese and her family is one of the major victims of the Chinese cultural revolution: they've lost Everything back then, and suffered through decades of what was Truly back then an oppressive regime.

You say I only see the happy side of China. On the contrary. I know how bad China has been in the past 50 years.
- you weren't here when half of my mother's family was executed for nothing more than being so-called "intellectuals", even if they supported Mao.
- you weren't here when the rest of her family was thrown into jail, and she had to take care of her three younger siblings.
- you weren't here when She was thrown into jail
- or when she was tortured on a daily basis at school because of the family she came from
- you weren't here when she was sent to labour camp
- you weren't here when other people she knew also lost Everything, had to sell everything down to their very last so-so coats, and were living in a tiny worn-down "house"
- hell you weren't here when she had to kill her own dog. It was either that or let the dog go and have outsiders beat it to death because dogs were considered "bourgeois"

Now many of those people who had lost so much have slowly managed to gain back part of what they lost. China gave them that opportunity at least.

You weren't here like my dad was 20 years ago:
- when foreigners were all locked up in the hotels
- when the Chinese looked at foreigners frightfully, indeed were Not allowed to talk to foreigners
- when the big event of the year was the introduction of red coats, at a time when all the coats used to be black, and during a year nobody even Dared to buy red coats
- when there were no entertainment venues whatsoever, no good products no nada

So between 20 years ago and right now, there is simply no comparison, even among poor people. You like to talk because you're comfortably at home and haven't lived through the darker years of China yourself. You're not starving and forced to work in the fields in unsanitary conditions, you don't live in worn down houses with no air conditions, bad insulation and maybe no bathroom, and you don't see how Chinese people are happy to get brand-new apartments (those apartment are real nice really) and brand new food products.

You may only see the happy-go-lucky side of China
I've lived both inside and outside China, thank you very much. It's 50/50. And my view of China extends over 20 years, unlike yours that compares China to modern countries Right Now. This is why, I can confidentally say, that the situation in China has been improving a LOT.

The Chinese government doesn't "slaughter" citizens every day as you claim. They have execution logs and they certainly aren't like the millions of jews being massacred. They don't do massive round-ups just to do mass genocide. The Chinese government has been doing genuine efforts to lift hundreds of millions of its citizens out of proverty and into prosperity, and it has actually Succeded. It was not without costs, but for every step back there were two steps forward in living standards. Compare to North Korea which lefts millions of its citizens starve, and whose television programs, according to people in northern China who can receive the signals, scare even the Chinese.

Also, unlike say... the US, the Rich actually get convicted as well. In the US, if the upper management does bad, it gets a golden handshake before they go retire. In China they do get thrown into jail. High-level have been thrown into jail or executed as well.

In China, we do see the bad, thank you very much. We joke about government corruption, we know about IPR, we know that there's a lack of well-trained middle-class, vocational education is nowhere near the levels it should be, etc, etc.

Thing is though, most of these problems are things that can't be changed overnight. The censorship is perhaps one of the biggest stupidities by the Chinese government, and it doesn't even work because all the Chinese have learned to use proxies. But on the whole, China is perhaps the single most successful economic, and perhaps not only economic successes, in history. Recent years have seen a drop in global proverty rates. Much of that, according to studies, is due to China. So you want worse perhaps? At least women aren't oppressed in China (at least, not legally so. As for selective abortion, there's that in India too). At least there isn't a cast system in China. At least the average Chinese has been getting their share of China's growth, unlike say... dictatorships in Africa that takes all the money they get from oil and leave it in their own pockets, so much so that in some African countries, they have to Leave the country to import oil because the government won't give them any. Torture by the way? Last I checked, the US merrily does that too.

The problem is that you're asking China to accomplish in 10 years what took western nations HUNDREDS of years to accomplish. The right to vote isn't everything when you don't even meet basic human needs. Russia attempted to make a transition between dictatorship to democracy. The result was so chaotic that they practically elected a dictator (Putin) who marginalized all of his opponents, even got several thrown into jail, controlled the press and modified political rules (I think) so that he can get re-elected. We're talking about someone who got Elected here. Then there are scandals involving the president of the Philipines and who knows what else. At least China is tackling the poverty issue. It's taking things slowly, but it Is progressing. Recently they've apparently managed to reverse the rural exodus trend thanks to more favourable agricultural policies, but also because working conditions elsewhere weren't always that good. As a result of this though, there's actually a manufacturing labour shortage in China now, which means companies are offering higher pay and better conditions to try to find better workers. And guess who benefits from all this? The common Chinese. These things take time, but more and more Chinese are getting access to better and better conditions. You act as though economic considerations are a bad thing to Chinese. It isn't. Quite the contrary.

[Vetrean]

I would say something on the subject, as I'm Chinese and I could count with the hairs in my eyebrows the stories I've been told about China before Mao and such and then the stories about just after Mao and such.

But Mizura basically covered everything.

Now excuse me as I lurk here.

Seriously though, what are you smoking when you say Westerners aren't allowed to get to mainland China? Last I checked, Beijing definitely counted as mainland. It's not like they all get diverted to Hong Kong or some such.

As well...slaughtering people on a daily basis?

I'll point this out. Your beloved Western nations would be the biggest hypocritical mistakes on the face of the planet if that were true.

EDIT: Sweet, 6 posts to 1000. I never thought it would take me more than a year.

[mrheadlice]

This is great news for boozers out there....... drink up and u can buy a new liver...... whats wrong if its made in china..... so is everything else in the world

[Not A Hero]

This is completely disgusting. Every time I hear news about life in China, it seems worse. It's really a horrible situation. China is scary. Let's worry about something else.

[Cæk]

Expression to thread title: O________________O

Isn't this a good thing given more lives will be saved? Or a bad thing because it's producing organs?

[narutosimpson]

it's a bad thing to take people's organs against their will if u ask me...

[Narvi]

It's kind of sad this is news. The whole reason the Chinese economy has been booming is because of China's complete lack of human rights. They slaughter their citizens on a daily basis, they hate Falun Gong, and are seriously anti-west right now. Everyone worries about North Korea and Iran, it's rediculous. North Korea is run by a mentally insane dwarf, they can't do a damn thing. They might fire one nuke, but that would be the only nuke they ever got to fire. China on the other hand is a serious threat. They are on the fast track to becoming a superpower (we're talking about as early as 2015 here) and they are going to be our number one competitor in the world market. If our government doesn't fix our economic model, and fast, China will surpass our GNP and we will be completely fucked. If China can outproduce us... the US will lose it's dominance over the world, and that's going to negatively effect everyone.

What's with the fear? Considering China's environmental policies, its terrible history of mine safety, the growing gap between rich and poor in society, along with worker's rights problems, (sweatshops) things like that, it'll be a while yet before China becomes a full, respected superpower. Anyway, they'll get better. You can't have good business without appearing safe to outside investers, and you won't appear safe without instituting human rights and civil liberties. And China wants good business. And you can't deny that they haven't improved a lot. I'm sure that by the time China can challenge the US, it will have liberalized greatly. Hopefully the censorship and other things I have noted above will be, if not gone, at least dramatically reduced.

China may not like what the US likes, but it isn't "evil". It's worried more about its own business right now, then anything else. I don't agree with all the things the state has done, like vilifying the Japanese (though the Japanese haven't exactly helped matters), forced organ donation (you can imagine the human rights problems), support of North Korea, and the terrible mine safety regulations, but they are trying to improve. And the world economy would be a lot lesser now if not for the Chinese economic power.

[BlueBerry]

OBS J/K
...
Chinese liver, Kung Fu +3 (constant effect)
.....
:oh