Japanese study sources?

[Twirl]

Seeing how there are a lot of people learning Japanese, maybe some of you had the same problem I do… I can’t find any good sources on Japanese sentence stricture. And is there a book that has all the particles in an organized manner, not partially complete and thrown all over the book in no particular order.:mad

Any good sources appreciated (books…) Thanks

[The Black Knight]

guidetojapanese.com

Doesn't give you any bullshit lies, and doesn't say stuff like the ni particle can mean in, at, on. It's a big guide and most of them are in the beginning somewhere. I suggest if your learning to read the whole thing.

[Twirl]

One other question:

ka - indicates a question.(is what it says in the book) but is there always a "ka" at the end of any question?

watashi no tokoro de <--- at my place? (Question)

watashi no tokoro de <--- at my place (statement)

Why is there no "ka" to indicate a question (this is from a book, did the author make a mistake?) and both the statement and the question form are the same. I thought you need a ka in Japanese to indicate a question.




This kind of kicks me off track, the book was telling me I need “ka” (at the end of a sentence) for a question and now it all of a sudden didn’t use it. Help me please! I cant find the answer any where.:arg

[Yoshitsune]

One other question:

ka - indicates a question.(is what it says in the book) but is there always a "ka" at the end of any question?

watashi no tokoro de <--- at my place? (Question)

watashi no tokoro de <--- at my place (statement)

Why is there no "ka" to indicate a question (this is from a book, did the author make a mistake?) and both the statement and the question form are the same. I thought you need a ka in Japanese to indicate a question.

This kind of kicks me off track, the book was telling me I need “ka” (at the end of a sentence) for a question and now it all of a sudden didn’t use it. Help me please! I cant find the answer any where.:arg

You need ka to make a polite question, and a generic one.

But in casual speech you can just raise your voice at the end of the sentence like you would in English to make it a question. Raising your voice at the end creates this effect.

[Twirl]

Anyone know where I can get paper that is divided into small squares to learn kanji writing… its really annoying to make them yourself, and hard to practice with plain paper.

[The Black Knight]

I guess it'd be grammaticaly correct, but it sounds really rought and it might be weird to your friends. Usually "no" or nothing at all is more common with plain/casual forms....however ka comes up sometimes, but it just sounds really rough. A question in speech can be identified by the raising intonation in the voice. We do the same thing in English, when you make a statement, but are really asking a question, the pitch of your voice raises at the end of the sentence.

wakatta?

[Twirl]

Wow books are crap, they neglect these things. But finally ka was demystified…

Thanks a lot!

[The Black Knight]

Not really htat but they like to teac you the generic/polite stuff. They like to only teach you polite forms, and tell you not to use casual/plain forms. They also like to teach to you the -masu/polite form before the dictionary/plain form...which also makes no sense at all. And they decide your not smart enough for kana or kanji so they use romaji.

That's why I recommend anyone that asks me to guidetojapanese.com (it doesn't do all this weird crap that books and other sites do).

And it's kana/kanji right from the beginning so you get lots of exposure. I didn't use the site, because I didn't know about it when I was studying, but I wish I did though!

[The Black Knight]

No. If you can't find it, google "Tae Kim grammar" or "Tae Kim Japanese"

[Twirl]

a way to declare that something is the way it is by attaching the hiragana character 「だ」 to a noun or na-adjective

is 「だ」 a casual version of desu?

[The Black Knight]

sort of...but not exactly. It's a bit more forceful, so be careful. However you of course can't use desu in the middle of sentences (modying subordinate clauses is the right term,...I think). Also you can't use da with i-adjectives, but you can use desu. When you get rgiht down to it, most of the time, desu and da can be used interchangeably (of course changing politness level and emotion) but there are some cases where they can't and this is where their real differences show. desu is a contraction of de arimasu (honorific form, gozaimasu).

It's kinda of a complex thing and I'm not a good teacher so I'll let someone like Yoshitsune, NJT, or Nhiongaeri explain it.

Hope my explanation gave you some level of understanding. :amuse

[Oneironaut]

guidetojapanese.com

Doesn't give you any bullshit lies, and doesn't say stuff like the ni particle can mean in, at, on. It's a big guide and most of them are in the beginning somewhere. I suggest if your learning to read the whole thing.

Thanks for the link. This is exactly what I've been searching for. :) Having already learned Spanish, I'm no longer the monolinguistic neophite who needs to learn phrases like "What is your name?" and "I am __ years old!". I much prefer getting nitty-gritty with the actual structure of the language before conjugating expressions.

Right now I'm entrenched in learning Hiragana. It's refreshingly challenging; all my instincts are wrong. Thanks again!

[Oneironaut]

On second thought, I just reached Kanji and Katakana. Now I want to cry.

[The Black Knight]

haha.....but you need exposure....it will force you to learn quickly.....also it's got an interactive dictionary.....just hover your mouse over the words.

Kana (Hiragana and Katakana) is easy, it's just phonectics...They represent a sound. Kanji represents a meaning and it's hard. This site won't teach you much kanji, but it will expose you to it.

[Zhero]

Every thing I see come up as Squares what the heck....

[RamenLover]

type Japanese unicode into google and click the first link, it has lots of japanese fonts, choose one and install it into Windows/Fonts, then you won't see the squares anymore :)

[Twirl]

To change ru-verbs into the past tense

* Drop the 「る」 part of the ru-verb and add 「た」

出る → 出た

On http://www.guidetojapanese.org/pastverb.html it says that 出 is deru but isn't it just de... it becomes deru (出る) when you add る at the end.

This was confusing me a bit, as when you mouse over 出 it says "deru" and then it has る at the end... and it says drop the る and add た

I am thinking its 出る (deru) not (deruru)... drop る = de, add た... becomes 出た (deta) not deruta

I am pritty sure the past tense of 出 is deta not deruta

[Yoshitsune]

Maybe I could just make a thread on Japanese grammar and verbs to make things easier...been meaning to do one in a while too

[The Black Knight]

hmm good idea....I'll help. I'll just follow your lead.....

[Twirl]

Was I right… although I am 99% sure that I was, it does not hurt to make sure.


Is 出 ever used without an ending (although I never saw that)? And what would it mean?

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As far as a thread on Japanese grammar goes... maybe threads on aspects of Japanese grammar would be better (a thread for each aspect), that way you can give a lesson, have questions asked and the thread will stay clean for future use (so you don’t have to go through 15 pages of random stuff to get to the lesson). Some of these threads get dirtied up by some random blabber and it becomes hard to find anything

This way useful info will stay on top...

OR

A thread where only you post (no questions or comments) and another thread for questions...

But it will probably be better to compile it from existing sources; rather then from scratch… copy and past from sites that you think give correct information…

Well, these are just suggestions

[Yoshitsune]

Was I right… although I am 99% sure that I was, it does not hurt to make sure.


Is 出 ever used without an ending (although I never saw that)? And what would it mean?

A thread where only you post (no questions or comments) and another thread for questions...

出 is just one kanji, it can be paired up with a whole lot of kanji both to the right of it or to the left of it. 出る(if this is what you mean by an ending), is a verb that you need to conjugate when using it in a sentence. 出かける, is also along the same lines. So it does have "endings", if this is what you mean...

About the thread, yeah I'd want it locked so no one posts and people can just discuss like they do now at the Japense Lesson thread. It'll be there just for resource purposes.

[The Black Knight]

yeah ask a mod to lock it, and give posting privelages to only you, me, and anyone else whom "you deem worthy. "

then have another thread for discussions and questions that anyone can post in.


sorta like Ameno used to do.....(but stopped).....maybe Ameno_Kitaro can help out too.


However, unlike Ameno's it will be more grammar oriented...

Well if we can't get a mod to assign us special posting privelages in the thread, we can always just put in size 7 bold letters at the top of the first post to not post in the thread.

[Twirl]

出 is just one kanji, it can be paired up with a whole lot of kanji both to the right of it or to the left of it. 出る(if this is what you mean by an ending), is a verb that you need to conjugate when using it in a sentence. 出かける, is also along the same lines. So it does have "endings", if this is what you mean...


Yes, that’s what I am talking about. So in other words 出 can’t appear without another kanji or un-conjugated.



When I looked up 出 this is what it gave me (if I am not mistaken it says it’s a noun?!):

出 (de) - (n,n-suf) outflow; coming (going) out; graduate (of); rising (of the sun or moon); one's turn to appear on stage

So it made me think that it can appear like ボブ の 出 (Bob's turn to appear on stage)


P.S.
Is 出 what’s referred to as "the dictionary form"?

[Yoshitsune]

Yes, that’s what I am talking about. So in other words 出 can’t appear without another kanji or un-conjugated.



When I looked up 出 this is what it gave me (if I am not mistaken it says it’s a noun?!):

出 (de) - (n,n-suf) outflow; coming (going) out; graduate (of); rising (of the sun or moon); one's turn to appear on stage

So it made me think that it can appear like ボブ の 出 (Bob's turn to appear on stage)


P.S.
Is 出 what’s referred to as "the dictionary form"?

I'll explain it in the thread too now that you mentioned this.
But Japanese consists of Chinese characters and Japan's own 2 writing systems. 出 by itself cannot be used because it's just one kanji that together with other ones create a verb, noun, or phrase.

When you look up 出, you might just get the meaning of what the kanji means. In other words, you're only getting the basis of many words. Whenever you see 出 with other kanji, you can assume it has some sort of meaning of "coming out" or in the direction of "away from you".

For example:
出口 (out+mouth = exit)
出生 (out+life= birth)
出入 (out+enter= in&out or incomes and expenses)

家出 (house+out = running away from home)
思い出 (thoughts+out = memories)

The above words are nouns, but 家出, for example, can also be used as a verb with the adding of the universal verb する

出る is the dictionary form of the wordt that means "to go out".

ボッブの出 - Doesn't mean anything since I just explained the use of 出
It should be:
ボッブの登場 - Bob's appearance on stage, or turn to enter~

Like the title of the 1st episode of Naruto:
登場！うずまきナルト!
Enter! Uzamaki Naruto!

[Twirl]

ども, ありがとござました

Crystal clear now!:mgai

[The Black Knight]

えぇ・・・「ありがとう」だよ　　・・～「ありがと」じゃないー。

[Twirl]

そっか じゃあ... ども, ありがとうござました:nod

[Twirl]

http://web.uvic.ca/kanji-gold/

Since this is a thread for Japanese study sources, here is a free program for those who are learning kanji… This is more for testing yourself, but use it how it best fits you (its free so you cant go wrong)

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