Are demon arts just a gimmick?

[BGtymin]

Is it just me or are Demon Arts totally useless in bleach, sure they have been used occasionally but I don't see much use in them, does anyone think that they will ever be useful?

[Mojim]

What makes you think demon arts is a gimmick??:huh Demon arts is one of the techniques that shinigami use to fight in a battle.Are you sure you have watched Bleach?

[BGtymin]

Yeah but when have they been used in any major battle (Aizen used a level 90 or something but it wasn't in a major battle). Are you sure you watch bleach azim? Cause if you show me when people use Demon Arts, I will gladly admit your the all knowing bleach master. In naruto they use Jutsu's all the time, in DBZ they always used energy attacks, but when in bleach have demon arts been used by a shinigami for a useful purpose in a major fight?

[Kisame]

Byakuya uses it to disrupt Renjis bankai
Byakuya uses it to Bind renji
Byakuya uses it to paralyze Ichigo

Aizen uses it to wtf pwn Komamura

Tousen uses it to pwn grimmjows arm

the 4th division vc uses it to tell everyone aizen is evil

HInamori uses it to break out her cell


its been useful O.o

[Sieg]

...also, demon arts are not the jutsu/ki of bleach.
Have you heard of something called a zanpakuto?

[Neji]

Byakuya uses it to disrupt Renjis bankai
Byakuya uses it to Bind renji
Byakuya uses it to paralyze Ichigo

Aizen uses it to wtf pwn Komamura

Tousen uses it to pwn grimmjows arm

the 4th division vc uses it to tell everyone aizen is evil

HInamori uses it to break out her cell


its been useful O.o

Kisame pretty much covered it:nod

[BGtymin]

Byakuya uses it to disrupt Renjis bankai
Byakuya uses it to Bind renji
Byakuya uses it to paralyze Ichigo

Aizen uses it to wtf pwn Komamura

Tousen uses it to pwn grimmjows arm

the 4th division vc uses it to tell everyone aizen is evil

HInamori uses it to break out her cell


its been useful O.o

I said major battles, also when did Ichigo get paralysed by Byakuya (he destroyed his soul sleep and chain link right?). I also said the Aizen example, and I will restate the question again so people get it: When have demon arts been used in a major battle in a useful way.

[Kisame]

when did Ichigo get paralysed by Byakuya (he destroyed his soul sleep and chain link right?). I also said the Aizen example, and I will restate the question again so people get it: When have demon arts been used in a major battle in a useful way

Kidou 4: White lightening pooooooofff

[Neji]

When have demon arts been used in a major battle in a useful way.

Kisame already said it, Renji vs Byakuya:oh

[Wesley]

To me, it seems like Kidou is a plaything. People that already have an advantage use it to be cool or something. It's really only applicable in tightly controlled circumstances, otherwise the chants take too long or are underpowered. The only time I can think of Kidou being seriously useful is if a Shinigami is disarmed, like Kaien had been or when Rukia had to manage without the bulk of her Shinigami powers.

Although, I think Kukaku relied on it and was fairly successful and powerful in her own right...

Really though it's always better to have a Zanpakutou if you have one.

[BGtymin]

Oh I mean specifically 'Destructive Arts', are those not Demon arts. I may be saying the wrong thing you know like Shot of red fire and such.

[Mojim]

Ok let me explain here. There are two known types of demon arts spells: binding and destructive (a.k.a. blast). Destructive spells (破道 hadō) concentrate on damaging the target, while binding spells (縛道 bakudō) can ensnare an opponent, though some spells in this class are also used for healing, communication, etc.

Cause if you show me when people use Demon Arts, I will gladly admit your the all knowing bleach master.
Here are some example:
-Isane Kotetsu demonstrated when she used binding spell #58 to locate Sōsuke Aizen and Gin Ichimaru within Soul Society, and then #77 to convey all captains and lieutenants a message.
-Momo Hinamori used it to knock out a guard, damage the walls and escape from a prison. .Its called hakufuku (white crawl)
-Hitsuguya used this to seal Momo Hinamori's hospital room. It creates a glass-like barrier which is difficult to break from the outside, but quite simple to break from the inside.Called Kyomon
-The most common use of demon arts so far is Shunpo (you've already know this right?) Shunpo is also part of demon arts.So it beeing used in every battle
-sōkatsui,blue fireball, casts a blue ball of spiritual energy at the target.This have been used by Rukia many times in the Bounto arc
-shakkahō,the red ball thingy also been used by Rukia countless times.
-byakurai,white lightning, fires a straight bolt of lightning from the extended forefinger of the caster.This has been use by Byakuya when he fought with Renji and Ichigo (i think) and Matsumoto when she fought with Baura in the Bounto arc.

[BGtymin]

I mean the Destructive Arts then as I said like DA 31: Shot of red fire. Sorry for mixing them up.

[Sieg]

Do you just want bleach turned into... DBZ or something? :huh

[Wesley]

Do you just want bleach turned into... DBZ or something? :huh

More likely he wants legitimate and effective spellcasting. There aren't any seirous Kidou users in the series, not ones that wouldn't be more effective using a Zanpakutou for battle.

[BGtymin]

Do you just want bleach turned into... DBZ or something? :huh

No, but I think it would be cool to see DA's used to beat an enemy in the show, hell Ichigo doesn't even know a single DA, that seems kinda stupid for the main character to not know how to do something that is important, therefore DA's aren't really important at all. I am just saying I hope DA's play a bigger role later on in the series, Ichigo needs more than Getsuga Tenshou (if I wanted to see someone shoot a cresent shaped peice of energy from a sword over and over, I would watch Inuyasha) for his attacks. And isn't that what most action-anime are about, big crazy rediculous attack, sure people have their own Zanpaktou attacks but it would be cool to see a little more than just those.

[Mojim]

I bet Ichigo soon will learn how to use Demon arts. We just have to wait and see and hoping he will use one though.I'm kinda agree with you when you said Demon arts need to play a bigger role.

But in the meantime,we might as well just enjoy seeing the zanpaktou first,Bankai and Shikai (it's cool right?).We might have just forget that they have magic :laugh

And i'm certainly don't want Bleach to turn out like DBZ?! :(

[BGtymin]

I bet Ichigo soon will learn how to use Demon arts. We just have to wait and see and hoping he will use one though.I'm kinda agree with you when you said Demon arts need to play a bigger role.

But in the meantime,we might as well just enjoy seeing the zanpaktou first,Bankai and Shikai (it's cool right?).We might have just forget that they have magic :laugh

And i'm certainly don't want Bleach to turn out like DBZ?! :(

I don't want the story to be a copy but every anime should want to turn out like DBZ, insanely popular. Really though I love DB and I don't know why people knock it, have you ever seen the cell saga? some of the best stuff I have ever seen and the early eps (DB in the US) are so funny and fantastical that the series offers a lot for anyone. Also DBZ had such amazing fights with really good animation (for fights so crazy) how can you knock it?

[Mojim]

I don't want the story to be a copy but every anime should want to turn out like DBZ, insanely popular. Really though I love DB and I don't know why people knock it, have you ever seen the cell saga? some of the best stuff I have ever seen and the early eps (DB in the US) are so funny and fantastical that the series offers a lot for anyone. Also DBZ had such amazing fights with really good animation (for fights so crazy) how can you knock it?
Don't get me wrong here,ok.I never said that i don't like DBZ,in fact this is my first anime i've watched since i'm just a brat (kid)smile-big.And this is how i get to know about Japanese stuff etc:Animes,manga,cosplay and others.

No doubt that DBZ has the best animated fight scenes EVER!! Hell yeah,i'm like it.It was the best for me also.Well this is DBZ speciality comes,it's the fight/battle scenes what makes DBZ so god damn popular!!! People are eager to see the characters fight with the powerful villains of DBZ.

What I see in Bleach is not only just the fight scenes,but the story that i'm looking forward and eager to see.Bleach to me is not only just the fight scenes are cool or important but the story development or story progress which should come first.This is Bleach main speciality.I don't see that in DBZ,just the same with add some with the main character got stronger each time he fought with his enemies.I'ts kinda repetitive in 3 arc,Freiza,Cell and Buu.

What got me so obsesed with Bleach is the plot and twist in it.OMG...it was one the best so far IMO.Yeah i'm agree with you that every anime should have a fight scenes that can make people remebered or exited about it,but Bleach is only just half way through.I believe that we will see more action than you can imagine of in the future.Oh god,i cant wait to see that happened :wtf

So this is just my opinion,ok. smile-big

[Ram]

More likely he wants legitimate and effective spellcasting. There aren't any seirous Kidou users in the series, not ones that wouldn't be more effective using a Zanpakutou for battle.
Aizen, Rukia, Yoruichi, Byakuya, and Hinamori are heavy kidou users.

The importance of kidou knowledge was made painfully apparent in the Byak/Renji fight.

In fact the special ops ultimate techinque is kidou based.
Then there's the kidou brigade, they'll find kidou useful no doubt.

Kisame covered mostly eveything in his first post.

[Wesley]

Aizen, Rukia, Yoruichi, Byakuya, and Hinamori are heavy kidou users.

The importance of kidou knowledge was made painfully apparent in the Byak/Renji fight.

In fact the special ops ultimate techinque is kidou based.
Then there's the kidou brigade, they'll find kidou useful no doubt.

PS: and Kisame pwned the thread very quickly.

No, no, no. What we're talking about here is using Kidou because it's better then using something else, namely the Zanpakutou. All the people you pointed out just now only either use Kidou outside of battle or when they were already at an advantage.

Aizen was playing with Kidou when he fried Komamarou. He could have just stabbed him like he did Ichigo and Hitsugaya or possibly even just punched him. He decided to have a little 'fun' though. It's not like Aizen relied on any particulary style when he went on his owning spree. He just did it rather whimiscally.

Byakuya could have easily smashed Renji with his on Bankai, but instead messed around with some Kidou arts.

Hinamori is a master Kidou user, yet she still prefers her Zanpakutou.

And Rukia used it when she didn't have a Zanpakutou. Once she got it back, all her Kidou disappeared.

And Yoruichi developed a special combat style based on Hohou, Hokadou, and Kidou. She also doesn't carry a Zanpakutou. If she did, she'd probably rely on it.

Basically what I'm getting at is, Zanpakutous > any other method of fighting. Everything supplements the use of the Zanpakutou and there are very few people that can compete without one.

[Insipidipity]

If anything I think someone(Taichou?) and I concluded that Kidou(Demon arts, the magic shinigami use) are so overpowered that they can't be used often. It would destroy most fights in a few moves rather than having a nice fight sequence.
In a sense, they are a gimmick or even a plot device at times to simply wtfbbq their enemies. I mean, Byakuya showed that a single Bakudo(binding type of kidou) could stop a Bankai user cold.

In a sense, it's a lot like Genjutsus in Naruto. Every so often someone can break out(Ichigo broke out of Bakudo #1), but for the most part, they leave their opponent helpless to retaliate.

[Ram]

Wesley, you're basing everything on SS fights. Shinigami vs. shinigami, it'll be zanpaktou use.

Against hollows, kidou would be better for some, I'm betting. Especially high level shinigami with kidou spells powerful enough to easily dispatch of enemies in one blast (and from long range).

[Wesley]

Wesley, you're basing everything on SS fights. Shinigami vs. shinigami, it'll be zanpaktou use.

Against hollows, kidou would be better for some, I'm betting. Especially high level shinigami with kidou spells powerful enough to easily dispatch of enemies in one blast (and from long range).

And you're making the uncertain claim that Kidou might be preferable to dispatching Hollows then using Zanpakutous, when we've seen no indication that it is.

Basically, up til now, Kidou has not been the deciding factor in any fight. Everytime it's been used the user chose to use it instead of something else. They did not need to use it, but they did anyway.

[Ram]

Gin himself gave everyone an indication of just how powerful high level kidou spells are done right.
We only saw the n00bs fight in SS. They wouldn't have mastered kidou, since they are nowhere near their shinigami limits. Sword skills are much easier to train, just see the recruits at the academy. Hinamori and Kira were the exceptions.
Kidou would quickly destroy hollows, and it's much faster to cast kidou than attack with a sword, as shown by Aizen (against the huge hollow, and Komamura), and Byak against Renji, and Rukia against the hollows in the Baishin OVA (does that count :D:?).

[I.P. Standing]

If anything I think someone(Taichou?) and I concluded that Kidou(Demon arts, the magic shinigami use) are so overpowered that they can't be used often. It would destroy most fights in a few moves rather than having a nice fight sequence.
In a sense, they are a gimmick or even a plot device at times to simply wtfbbq their enemies. I mean, Byakuya showed that a single Bakudo(binding type of kidou) could stop a Bankai user cold.

In a sense, it's a lot like Genjutsus in Naruto. Every so often someone can break out(Ichigo broke out of Bakudo #1), but for the most part, they leave their opponent helpless to retaliate.Yeah. I remember having that conversation with someone. It's more of a "WTF!?!" set of attacks than anything. If Kubo used them all time, it would take away from the shock and pwnness of the spells, and be more like Naruto, with swords, better character design, and less annoying, mid-fight, flashbacks.

[HugeGuy]

Yeah but when have they been used in any major battle (Aizen used a level 90 or something but it wasn't in a major battle). Are you sure you watch bleach azim? Cause if you show me when people use Demon Arts, I will gladly admit your the all knowing bleach master. In naruto they use Jutsu's all the time, in DBZ they always used energy attacks, but when in bleach have demon arts been used by a shinigami for a useful purpose in a major fight?
Lol, what does Naruto have without jutsus? And what does DBZ have without energy attacks?:laugh

Kidou is different. Kidou is merely a part of a shinigami's fighting style. Not to mention all the major shinigamis we've seen so far are from Gotei 13, an organisation that relies heavily on zanpakutou abilities. If we want more kidou, we should look for the Demon Arts Brigade and sadly Kubo has yet to shed more light on this mysterious group.

[Trias]

Dammit, I really really want to see Demons Art Brigade.

Btw, I'll once more demonstrate that Tessai has used a pair of 99th level Kidou on Ichigo at the very Shinigami Transformation Mini-Arc. It's funny that no one mentions that when they list Kidou users. Aizen is just a sucker at Kidou compared to Tessai.

Anyways, Kidou are spells that are of very tactical use in fact, if they're used properly. They are not just energy blasts, even though they can be used so, too.

[Mojim]

Btw, I'll once more demonstrate that Tessai has used a pair of 99th level Kidou on Ichigo at the very Shinigami Transformation Mini-Arc.
Yeah you right! I forgot that he also used a kidou.Maybe he's a master in Kidou binding spells type.

But Aizen use kurohitsugi (lvl 90) a.k.a Black Coffin that he used on Komamura is a Destructive spells type.Aizen is a master in destructive spells ( i think).

Maybe there is a difference power between this 2 types of Kidou?

[Moridin]

It's funny that no one mentions that when they list Kidou users. Aizen is just a sucker at Kidou compared to Tessai.

damn right, tessai is a beast!

anyway, Kisame did a decent job of summing it up. Kidou can give you a great advantage in a fight. Its just not something we've seen elaborated on to great extent due to the main character, ichigo being more of a raw power type of guy =p

[Insipidipity]

Dammit, I really really want to see Demons Art Brigade.

Btw, I'll once more demonstrate that Tessai has used a pair of 99th level Kidou on Ichigo at the very Shinigami Transformation Mini-Arc. It's funny that no one mentions that when they list Kidou users. Aizen is just a sucker at Kidou compared to Tessai.

Anyways, Kidou are spells that are of very tactical use in fact, if they're used properly. They are not just energy blasts, even though they can be used so, too.
Hey, I've cited that Bakudo #99 at least twice before.
I don't think anyone mentions non-shinigami period when talking about kidou users let alone Bakudo. Sado, Orihime, and Tessai have all used only kidou. Even Ichigo is far more powerful with Getsuga tenshou than without it.


What I'm curious about is whether Kubo knows all 99 Hadou, 99 Bakudo and 99 Healing kidous...I doubt it, but it's weird he chose to number them all.

[Parell]

How many times has Rukia used it/attempted to use it when she was in her gigai?

Byakuya uses it ALL the freakin' time.

[Wesley]

How many times has Rukia used it/attempted to use it when she was in her gigai?

Byakuya uses it ALL the freakin' time.

He used it 3 times. Twice against Renji. Once against Ichigo. All three times it was just because he felt like it.

[Sasori]

I thought Kidou was more like a supplementary technique for Shinigami?

But then u have those who have specialised in Kidou, such as the Demon Arts Brigade...but i don't think they are like a main offensive force as such tho...

Such as they may only play the same part as archers in a medival army ie

Effective, but not the main part of the offensive force.

[Trias]

Insi / Oh sorry. I must have missed them of course.

Wesley / Just because he felt like it? Can you prove that with an arguement?

[Parell]

He used it 3 times. Twice against Renji. Once against Ichigo. All three times it was just because he felt like it.

It wasn't for the heck of it...it was because he needed that extra punch in his battle. He used it when he was behind all three times; needless to say, no captain has done much fighting. I count only two major battles and two minor ones in the whole series for Byakuya.

[I.P. Standing]

Hey, I've cited that Bakudo #99 at least twice before.
I don't think anyone mentions non-shinigami period when talking about kidou users let alone Bakudo. Sado, Orihime, and Tessai have all used only kidou. Even Ichigo is far more powerful with Getsuga tenshou than without it.I think Tessai was Urahara's fukutaichou. I have no proof though.What I'm curious about is whether Kubo knows all 99 Hadou, 99 Bakudo and 99 Healing kidous...I doubt it, but it's weird he chose to number them all.Probably, when he was getting the series outlined up, he thought of a bunch of attacks, then only kept some to actually use, to stray away from shows like DBZ and Naruto.

[Parell]

The chants sound sorta cool though.


......then again, they'd probably sound pretty retarted once they're dubbed.

[chauronity]

I mean the Destructive Arts then as I said like DA 31: Shot of red fire. Sorry for mixing them up.

Well in that case Aizen's was the real deal, as good as they can be.

Kuukaku's and Yoruichi's arts were exceptionally awesome, too.

[Insipidipity]

I think Tessai was Urahara's fukutaichou. I have no proof though.
I do too(and so does Wikipedia) but I just mean that people don't think of him when they think Shinigami.
The chants sound sorta cool though.


......then again, they'd probably sound pretty retarted once they're dubbed.
Meh, witches do incantations all the time...not something brand new

[Wesley]

Well, all I have left to say is the Shinigami can learn alot from The Slayers Universe.

[Trias]

Lol, fiiireeebaaaall.

[Sakura Kaijuu]

Wesley, you're basing everything on SS fights. Shinigami vs. shinigami, it'll be zanpaktou use.

Against hollows, kidou would be better for some, I'm betting. Especially high level shinigami with kidou spells powerful enough to easily dispatch of enemies in one blast (and from long range).

But does kidou purify the soul the same way a zanpakutou does? I'm not saying that kidou isn't useful to at least ward them off and weaken them, but aren't zanpakutou necessary for the final blow, especially since there's a delicate balance that needs to be kept?

For the record, I think kidou is pretty kickass. I don't think it's just there for the hell of it.

[Ram]

But does kidou purify the soul the same way a zanpakutou does?
Yeah, it does.

lemme find some examples, and i'll put them up :-(

[Stormshadow]

i do agree that using destructive arts alone usually wont get the job done unless your already basically guarateed a win but anything can be used with a good strategy and timing to change the battle.

[Otherside]

Has this been mentioned yet?

http://www.bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=3493&sessionid=0dc034ca37b5e94f09e286ff28a5787c
http://www.bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=3494&sessionid=0dc034ca37b5e94f09e286ff28a5787c

[Parell]

I think they have, but thank you form the images.

[Barbender]

Let's consider some stuff not mentioned about Kidou

1) it takes long time to say a spell, unless you are powerful enough to brute force the spell. (I think it was mentioned in the manga/anime the spells can be used without chanting if your powerful enough)

2) you have to stand in one spot long enough to get the spell off

3) unless your fast enough your opponent maybe able to counter/cancel your spell (if it not a regular hollow)

4) it takes some serious spirit power to use the highest lvls of spells and high lvls of concentration

5) people with high spiritual power can reduce the spells power to nothing (Kenpachi anyone?)

so it comes down to when is it the best time to use spells.

[EtherSword]

Oh I mean specifically 'Destructive Arts', are those not Demon arts. I may be saying the wrong thing you know like Shot of red fire and such.
I had a feeling you ment that the whole time because I really don't see much use of them either, the white lightning one looks cool though. Using the destructive arts don't seem as useful as using your katana, its like a waste of time chanting it.

[Hyuuga Neji]

I had a feeling you ment that the whole time because I really don't see much use of them either, the white lightning one looks cool though. Using the destructive arts don't seem as useful as using your katana, its like a waste of time chanting it.

It would be a waste of time if you have to chant them, but if all you need to do is say the name of the spell (like aizen or byakuya) it can be usefull, also remember hinamori doesnt even need to say the spell part she just uses them. also some soul slayers have kidou properties (similar to the destructive arts) like the 5th seat guy of the 11th squad and hinamori

[EtherSword]

It would be a waste of time if you have to chant them, but if all you need to do is say the name of the spell (like aizen or byakuya) it can be usefull, also remember hinamori doesnt even need to say the spell part she just uses them. also some soul slayers have kidou properties (similar to the destructive arts) like the 5th seat guy of the 11th squad and hinamori
I think its still faster to just slice a hollow or shinigami with your sword instead of shooting a fire ball. What I think what could be useful about them is if you could combo them with your sword or lure people in different spots for strategies. But I prefer them to use their soul slayers on each other instead and hollows too.

[Ram]

I think its still faster to just slice a hollow or shinigami with your sword instead of shooting a fire ball.
No. You're just assuming.

[Parell]

No. You're just assuming.

Exactly. What happens when you're facing a hollow really good at close combat? You use kidou. Zap. Gone.