Cloud Strife VS Bankai Ichigo

[Dante]

Ok, so there's it:

Ichigo has his Bankai wich greatly increases his speed and he can also shoot Black Getsuga Tenshou, no Vizard/hollow transformation, no helps from his friends.

Cloud is AC Cloud, with his First Tsurugi wich makes him able to perform dual wielding and his limit breaks, including Omnislash ver.5.

They both are battling in the same space-time (no Ichigo is a shinigami stuff) and the scenario of the battle is the ruins of Shin-ra's main building as shown in AC.

So, who would win?

[silent_itachi]

Cloud Strife, easy decision.

[Molekage]

i go with cloud

[Gambitz]

cloud wins this one

[Sesqoo]

I'd go with Cloud, his omnislash will take this.

[Bullet]

Ichigo destroys Cloud (sorry).

[Nyat]

I usually support Cloud in battledome threads, but only because he deserves it most of the time. This time however, he does not. Cloud was fast and pretty damn amazing in AC, but not enough to keep up with Ichigo using Bankai. Ichigo was able to parry razor petals come in from literally every direction at once and was traveling at insane speeds. So Ichigo wins via bankai.

[Ion]

Bankai Ichigo, and that's assuming Cloud could even see him in his Shinigami form. Believe it or not, Cloud can be killed.

[Lil Punk2k9]

Let's be honest everybody,Ichigo strong,Cloud is not, Ichigo is fast as hell and is able to pretty much tear him to shreds.Ichigo is a soul reaper and can't be seen by Cloud cuz he doesn't have a sharp spirit awareness.

[escamoh]

Let's be honest everybody,Ichigo strong,Cloud is not, Ichigo is fast as hell and is able to pretty much tear him to shreds.Ichigo is a soul reaper and can't be seen by Cloud cuz he doesn't have a sharp spirit awareness.

Did you even read the rules for the fight?:notrust

We are assuming that Cloud can see and hurt Ichigo.

Now on topic, Ichigo's speed is way to fast for Cloud to keep up with. Cloud is powerful and has useful techniques but the AC version will not be able to lay a scratch on Bankai Ichigo.

Ichigo FTW...

[Nyat]

Let's be honest everybody,Ichigo strong,Cloud is not, Ichigo is fast as hell and is able to pretty much tear him to shreds.Ichigo is a soul reaper and can't be seen by Cloud cuz he doesn't have a sharp spirit awareness.
I already supported Ichigo in this fight, but really I have to object to downplaying Cloud like that. Cloud is not strong? Being able to jump hundreds of feet in the air and cut skyscrapers in half is weak is it?

And whats with people saying Cloud wouldn't be able to see Ichigo? It requires strong spirit strength right? So the guy who can manifest his spiritual force into visible form (whenever he did a Limit break in AC he would give off a blue mist). If you try to deny that is spirit energy then you have obviously never played FF7.

[escamoh]

And whats with people saying Cloud wouldn't be able to see Ichigo?

The people who said that are stupid...this fight is assuming that Cloud can see Ichigo.

BTW, I do agree with you on the whole FFVII spiritual energy thing, although couldn't it be the materia's power that is manifesting itself...

[Zouri]

^ But he wasn't carrying any in the movie. He never used a magic spell. Yuffie wanted to give it to him, but plot devices stopped her.

Anywho, if Cloud can pull of Omnislash, he wins. If not then he losses. Simple, no?

[Dante]

Ichigo is REALLY fast in his bankai mode but remember

the battle with Sephiroth, although Cloud's speed overall isn't as high as BKIchigo he IS pretty fast, just remember when he and Sephiroth are clashing their swords about the final part of the fight, that was pretty crazy

Also, you have to consider other factors, if the enmy is skilled enough the speed itself won't work, just look at Ichigo vs grimmjaw and you'll know what I mean

[Agent Mars]

I think people are forgetting that Cloud in AC didn't use materia and still beat Kadaj Loz and Yazoo all 3 of whom had Sephiroths genes, all because Cloud was injected with Jenova cells the purest form of the Ancients thus making cloud God Like.

IMO Cloud would win.

[uncle jafuncle]

thus making cloud God Like.

Cloud may be God-like, but Ichigo is a Death God.:P

I say Ichigo would win. Cloud wouldn't even be able to see him. Not because he is in the spirit world, but because Ichigo would be moving so freaking fast. Cloud has demonstrate super-human speed...Ichigo has deflected thousands of speeding blades at once, essentially moving his sword so fast that he created a blade barrier around himself. Bankai Ichigo and Cloud are probably roughly equal in displays of power, endurance, skill and durability, but Ichigo outclasses Cloud in speed.

[Piekage]

Wow. Never thought I'd see a match-up where Cloud is outclassed.

I think people are forgetting that Cloud in AC didn't use materia and still beat Kadaj Loz and Yazoo all 3 of whom had Sephiroths genes, all because Cloud was injected with Jenova cells the purest form of the Ancients thus making cloud God Like.


I didn't forget, and I still see Cloud losing. Also, Jenova wasn't an Ancient. She was an alien parasite. No character in FF7 other than Aeris and her mother have Ancient cells in there blood.

[Keollyn]

And whats with people saying Cloud wouldn't be able to see Ichigo? It requires strong spirit strength right? So the guy who can manifest his spiritual force into visible form (whenever he did a Limit break in AC he would give off a blue mist). If you try to deny that is spirit energy then you have obviously never played FF7.

That's aura, not spiritual energy.

Edit: And what's this shit about CLoud being God-like? In no way is he even CLOSE to God-like. He's pretty much low on the totem pole of powerful beings even in his own medium.

[Ion]

I think people are forgetting that Cloud in AC didn't use materia and still beat Kadaj Loz and Yazoo all 3 of whom had Sephiroths genes, all because Cloud was injected with Jenova cells the purest form of the Ancients thus making cloud God Like.

IMO Cloud would win.
I am as big a fan of AC as the next guy, but I'm not stupid enough to believe that Cloud could do shit against Ichigo. I think Byakuya would run circles around Cloud, then fuck him up. Ichigo did run circles around Byakuya, then fucked him up. The fight wouldn't even had been that if Ichigo had the desire to kill him, which he could have done as soon as he went Bankai. Byakuya didn't even see him coming, and Ichigo could have killed him before he even blinked.

Sephiroth was fast, but he wasn't that fast.

[Nyat]

That's aura, not spiritual energy.
Ummm, no, thats spiritual energy. Its the same thing that flares in Cloud's eyes when he gets angry, its the same stuff that enveloped Kadaj's arm before he used materia. Its Mako, and what is Mako? The life stream, and what was the life stream? The spirits of all dead creatures on the planet.

(Also note that Cloud was shown to have enhanced spiritual energy before he ever underwent the Soldier process. When he fought Sephiroth in the reactor core his eyes shined with energy just like Soldier do, and he didn't under go the Soldier process until afterwords)

[Dante]

I am as big a fan of AC as the next guy, but I'm not stupid enough to believe that Cloud could do shit against Ichigo. I think Byakuya would run circles around Cloud, then fuck him up. Ichigo did run circles around Byakuya, then fucked him up. The fight wouldn't even had been that if Ichigo had the desire to kill him, which he could have done as soon as he went Bankai. Byakuya didn't even see him coming, and Ichigo could have killed him before he even blinked.

Sephiroth was fast, but he wasn't that fast.
I agree in that Ichigo has the field advantage in what overall speed means, but Cloud has the advantage in both close and and ranged combat, not only he has more experience that Ichigo, but he also has more techniques by his side, also even though Ichigo was impresive in his first usage of BanKai he hasn't show anything that exceptional again until now, (meaning he can't cut at that speed against an human) one thing is slicing 1000 Senbozakura's petals and other is fighting with Cloud wich in close range can slice at madspeed too as show in the fight against Sephiroth, Cloud can also counter [Kuroi Getsuga] with [Bladebeam].

Also remember that with hist First Tsurugi Cloud can double wield, what could possibly put Ichigo in disadvantage due two reasons, he has never fought a double sword wielder and his Zangetsu is smaller in this from thus giving him minor chances to block (as Zangetsu his his only defense) also being a double wielder gives Cloud a chance to match up with Ichigo's speed at close combat.

I think both of them have a good chance to win, depending on the cirmcunstances, however, if Cloud manages to pull out Omnislash ver.5 Ichigo is doomed.

[Keollyn]

Ummm, no, thats spiritual energy. Its the same thing that flares in Cloud's eyes when he gets angry, its the same stuff that enveloped Kadaj's arm before he used materia. Its Mako, and what is Mako? The life stream, and what was the life stream? The spirits of all dead creatures on the planet.

(Also note that Cloud was shown to have enhanced spiritual energy before he ever underwent the Soldier process. When he fought Sephiroth in the reactor core his eyes shined with energy just like Soldier do, and he didn't under go the Soldier process until afterwords)

No, that's aura. What Ichigo uses is spiritual energy, what Cloud did was nothing more than a extension of his aura.

[mortsleam]

Ichigo can even w/ him thre swords are both great in size. Ichigo is faster and stronger. And + Bankai. Ichigo wins. Bleach world is stronger than FF's.

[Keollyn]

Ichigo can even w/ him thre swords are both great in size. Ichigo is faster and stronger. And + Bankai. Ichigo wins. Bleach world is stronger than FF's.

Not true. I can't think of anyone in Bleach that can handle...

FF6's Terra and Kefka

FF8's Ultimecia

FF9's Kuja

FF10's Magus Sister and Sin

FFT's infamous ninja/"" combo, Zodiac Brave 13 and Altima

And these are only the ones I've played

[Nyat]

No, that's aura. What Ichigo uses is spiritual energy, what Cloud did was nothing more than a extension of his aura.
If you are trying to say Cloud has something called "aura", thats just not true. If you are saying it was "an aura", then what exactly was it made out of if not mako?

[Sumoni]

Cloud I say! Cloud!

[Keollyn]

If you are trying to say Cloud has something called "aura", thats just not true. If you are saying it was "an aura", then what exactly was it made out of if not mako?

Cloud has something called "aura" because EVERYONE has aura. He's not a special case.

[Nyat]

Where are you getting this "aura" from? Its not mentioned in FF7 ever.

[Keollyn]

Definition from www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/virtue/SVGlossary.html

"A subtle, luminous energy field radiating within and around the human body as far as 3-7 feet. That part of the aura which surrounds the head is often represented by artists as a nimbus or halo to depict saints and enlightened beings. Though awakened souls have more brilliant and pure auras, everyone has an aura. Seen psychically, the aura is filled with many colors which are reflections of the thoughts and emotions active in the nervous system and change according to the person's state of mind."

[Nyat]

Definition from www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/virtue/SVGlossary.html

"A subtle, luminous energy field radiating within and around the human body as far as 3-7 feet. That part of the aura which surrounds the head is often represented by artists as a nimbus or halo to depict saints and enlightened beings. Though awakened souls have more brilliant and pure auras, everyone has an aura. Seen psychically, the aura is filled with many colors which are reflections of the thoughts and emotions active in the nervous system and change according to the person's state of mind."
See, the problem with that is that its not in FF7, while what I've mentioned (mako) is. This alone is enough to prove me correct. But it seems to me like this aura in FF7 terms could easily be explained as being made out of mako if you really feel like it. Even if we do follow you description of Cloud having something never mentioned in his game or movie instead of the energy that is explained in those sources, it would prove my original point when it says "awakened souls have more brilliant and pure auras". I think it was fair to say the energy around Cloud was "brilliant and pure" thus he had an "awakened soul", which sounds like spiritual awareness to me.

[Donkey Show]

Also, you have to consider other factors, if the enmy is skilled enough the speed itself won't work, just look at Ichigo vs grimmjaw and you'll know what I mean
Yeah, there's also the factor that Cloud != Grimmjaw. :amazed

[shibigoku]

Does Cloud have any materia? Anyways, it's Cloud's win. Why? He's fast, strong, agile and FF7's main character. Man, I feel like playing FF7 all over again.

[Dante]

Ichigo can even w/ him thre swords are both great in size. Ichigo is faster and stronger. And + Bankai. Ichigo wins. Bleach world is stronger than FF's.
Whrere did you got that idea from? Ichigo has never diplayed such strehgth as AC Cloud (ie: When he sliced giantic blocks of rock only with his swords) Ichigo's best bet is his speed and Getsuga Tenshou wich could be easily countered by Cloud's limit breaks, also as I said before Ichigo's close combat speed is not even near his overall bankai speed

[Ion]

Ichigo has never diplayed such strehgth as AC Cloud
O rly? What about the time he out-powered Jidanbou, a hulking giant the size of a small building, and easily the largest character in the series, by stopping his axe swings stone cold like nothing.

Once again, power, ability, and cool facter are all even for the two, but speed would be the deciding factor. We all know who wins in the speed department. Cloud wouldn't see what hit him.

[Seany]

Cloud is just to much for Ichigo :amazed

[NineG]

Ichigo is REALLY fast in his bankai mode but remember

the battle with Sephiroth, although Cloud's speed overall isn't as high as BKIchigo he IS pretty fast, just remember when he and Sephiroth are clashing their swords about the final part of the fight, that was pretty crazy

Also, you have to consider other factors, if the enmy is skilled enough the speed itself won't work, just look at Ichigo vs grimmjaw and you'll know what I mean

yeah but he was holding back because of his hollow problem

so that is a thing that you can't compare , cause the rules said no Vizard/hollow transformation

so then ichigo his problem of that battle should disapear

[Ikari Shinji]

yeah but he was holding back because of his hollow problem

so that is a thing that you can't compare , cause the rules said no Vizard/hollow transformation

so then ichigo his problem of that battle should disapearNo, it just means Ichigo can't transform, there's always the risk so he has to hold back no matter what, you can't fully take away the hollow because he was born with it

So that being said, Cloud can go all out while Ichigo can't, so Cloud wins

[NineG]

No, it just means Ichigo can't transform, there's always the risk so he has to hold back no matter what, you can't fully take away the hollow because he was born with it

So that being said, Cloud can go all out while Ichigo can't, so Cloud wins
he got the hollow after the urahara trainning so he wasn't born with it,
and if we look at the manga ichigo could go all out ,
so then ichigo still can go all out

[Ikari Shinji]

he got the hollow after the urahara trainning so he wasn't born with it,
and if we look at the manga ichigo could go all out ,
so then ichigo still can go all outNo, the hollow was released when training, it was always there though, it just didn't come out until he tapped into his shinigami powers

[Zack_Strife]

Ichigo is way faster in Bankai but his speed is limited in close combat. When he cut down all those sword petals he had nothing but empty space in front of him and all he really had to do was swing his sword really fast and the petals couldn't get through. When your in close combat with someone the way you can swing your sword is limited by how close you are, the position of their sword and the position of your own body. Basically there's a lot less empty space to move your sword through to get the power for a killing blow, you've also got the opponents sword to be concerned about.
Ichigo's best bet is to change ranges at high speed, come in and attack then get back out and come back in from a different angle, thus avoiding the problem of close combat. I'd wager that Cloud could react well enough at close range, he fought and defeated Loz who was shown to move faster than anyone else in the film/faster than the normal eye can see and there are only so many ways Ichigo can attack at any given point when he's in close so that's all he would need to concentrate on. In a close combat fight Cloud also has the advantage of dual swords, which gives him the opportunity to defend against Ichigo's attack and then launch his own attack at a point Ichigo can't defend.
Overall I think Ichigo would win if he played it smart, but if he lets himself get drawn into a close up fight Cloud will hurt him pretty badly, maybe even enough to force a draw.
There's only two things that could actually sway the fight into a win for Cloud and that's materia and if Ichigo is automatically in Bankai.
Haste, Barrier and Slow magic could effectivley destroy Ichigo's advantage, depending on how fast Haste makes you.
I Ichigo comes along in his normal form I don't see Cloud standing there letting him power up to Bankai. Cloud has never been the type to just sit back and let the opponent do what they want, he'd get stuck into Ichigo right away when he doesn't have the advantage.

[Dante]

O rly? What about the time he out-powered Jidanbou, a hulking giant the size of a small building, and easily the largest character in the series, by stopping his axe swings stone cold like nothing.

Once again, power, ability, and cool facter are all even for the two, but speed would be the deciding factor. We all know who wins in the speed department. Cloud wouldn't see what hit him.
Ok that's right, Ichigo is obviously pretty strong too.

However, I can't fully agree with you in the speed department, Ichigo would have the same problem Loz had in AC, his speed overall is much greater, but it isn't effective at all in close combat, also it's VERY unlikely Ichigo could beat Cloud down in just one hit.

[Kagutsuchi]

Ichigo VS AC Cloud = Ichigo wins
Ichigo VS Cloud (with materia and extras) = Cloud

[Donkey Show]

I also doubt Cloud can react fast enough to Shunpo. Even in AC, granted they were fast, the characters never exhibited near instantaneous movement.

[Nyat]

No, the hollow was released when training, it was always there though, it just didn't come out until he tapped into his shinigami powers
Do you have any proof to back that up? Because we know that when your spirit chain is completely gone you transform into a Hollow, and Ichigo didn't get his Hollow side until his chain was being destroyed.

[Ikari Shinji]

Do you have any proof to back that up? Because we know that when your spirit chain is completely gone you transform into a Hollow, and Ichigo didn't get his Hollow side until his chain was being destroyed.Just like he was born with shinigami powers, he was born with hollow powers, he awakened the shinigami part first, so it's the more dominant side, as opposed to the Arrancar that got hollow power first, then awakened shinigami power
Ichigo didn't become a hollow, but he awakened his hollow side when getting his shinigami powers back, which is why the mask started to appear and later manifested as Hollow Ichigo

[BattousaiMS]

Cloud will most likely win. Ichigo is fast but not that fast. Sure he was able to run around Byakuya but so was Cloud around Sephiroth and he is wielding a heavier sword. On top of that Ichigo has one ability with bankai atm Cloud has more then one and can jump higher then anything we have seen Ichigo do. Cloud is also a better swordsman between the two. Unless you have something like Ichigo can go invisible, a pretty long combo that can hit Cloud a few times in a row or can nuke in a place (meteorain from Cloud has a meteor fall on u), he has more chances of getting wacked by Cloud then he has chance to wack him.

Hollow Ichigo is possibly a differnt case because he knows how to use his zanpatou the best way and possibly all the moves that come with it. Ichigo is more like at limit break lvl 2 in his over all skill levels at the moment in the FF7 meter, so unless he gains full knowledge of his abilities he is at the mercy of his luck.

[superbatman86]

The thing is we don't know if Ichigo is faster than Cloud.All his speed feats are against other people.We dont' know if he can dodge a point blank gunshot to the head like Cloud.

[Nyat]

Just like he was born with shinigami powers, he was born with hollow powers, he awakened the shinigami part first, so it's the more dominant side, as opposed to the Arrancar that got hollow power first, then awakened shinigami power
Ichigo didn't become a hollow, but he awakened his hollow side when getting his shinigami powers back, which is why the mask started to appear and later manifested as Hollow Ichigo
So you don't have any scans to back yourself up? And how was he born with Hollow powers? Father = Shinigami, Mother = human. Sorry but Ichigo being born with Hollow powers seems like wild speculation.

It was stated during his training that if he screwed up he would become a Hollow, hence why the mask was forming. But through sheer willpower he managed to push on and awakened his Shinigami powers, but he had still been "infected" with a Hollow side.

P.S. Does anyone know a site that has Bleach scans I can link too?

[Ikari Shinji]

So you don't have any scans to back yourself up? And how was he born with Hollow powers? Father = Shinigami, Mother = human. Sorry but Ichigo being born with Hollow powers seems like wild speculation.

It was stated during his training that if he screwed up he would become a Hollow, hence why the mask was forming. But through sheer willpower he managed to push on and awakened his Shinigami powers, but he had still been "infected" with a Hollow side.Everyone with shinigami powers is able to become a vaizard, it's like yin and yang, both are spirits, hell even Ground Fisher was able to become a vaizard, and he was WEAK, anyway point being, he overcame the hollow because the shinigami part was dominant, so the hollow part was dormant until it was 'waken up' by him losing his chain, so since it was now awake, it started to take form, just like him being able to see ghosts without being a shinigami, his powers were just dormant

[Nyat]

Anyone has the capability of becoming a Hollow, you just need to lose your soul chain. But I wouldn't really see that as meaning everyone has a Hollow inside them, you only get the Hollow inside you when you lose your soul chain and resist.

[Dante]

Nyat, in bleach everyone's soul (plus) is born with both a Shinigami and Hollow side, if a soul is corrupted after death it becomes a Hollow, if it trains hard enough is able to awaken his Zanpakutoh, and becomes a Shinigami.

Ichigo was born with both Shinigami and Hollow powers but at first he "stole" Rukia's power, that's why his hollow part didn't manifest because the power he was using was only Shinigami-ish and not his, however when he awakened his own "power" HIchigo started to appear since he is a part of Ichigo's own power (wich he had since he was born, further proof is that Hichigo and Zangetsu are the same beign) so, Renton is right, Ichigo (as all pluses) was born with his Hollow, he didn't get infected in Urahara's training or something...his Hollow was allways there, only it got the means to manifest

[Zack_Strife]

You aren't born with a Hollow you become a Hollow. Every soul has the potential to go either way, to become a Shinigami or to decay and become a Hollow. It's the same as with real people, we all have the potential to be good or evil, we're not born with an evil half and a good half.

[Dante]

^^No, you allways have a hollow part, it's just like Ichigo's Shinigami powers he "has them" as Zangetsu states, he "had" Shinigami powers then awoke them, he didn't "become" a shinigami it's just the same with you hollow part, in fact the hollow and shinigami (zanpakutoh) are the two faces of a same power

[Nyat]

^^No, you allways have a hollow part, it's just like Ichigo's Shinigami powers he "has them" as Zangetsu states, he "had" Shinigami powers then awoke them, he didn't "become" a shinigami it's just the same with you hollow part, in fact the hollow and shinigami (zanpakutoh) are the two faces of a same power
I really don't remember that being stated anywhere in the manga. And I'm pretty sure not everyone can become a Shinigami, remember when Bayukia (I probably massacred that name) destroyed Ichigo's shinigami powers he had gained from Rukia. Urahura had said something to the effect of "he only destroyed your powers from Rukia because he didn't know you had any of your own".

P.S. Once again, does anyone know where I can find Bleach scans I can link to so I can show people what I'm talking about? (unless of course my memory is faulty and I'm getting this all wrong.)

[Dante]

^^When Ichigo's inner world is falling into pieces,(because he's turning hollow) Zangetsu tells hims that Byakuya destroyed Rukia's shinigami powers, but Ichigo has still his own, note that Zangetsu (representing his Shinigami part) it's already in Ichigo's inner world and he has allways been there, up until now, there's no proof the hollow part has allways been though, however later in the series it is revealed that HIchigo and Zangetsu are the same beign meaning that them both were within Ichigo since he was born

[Zack_Strife]

Ichigo has Shinigami powers because his dad is a Shinigami. Shirosaki hasn't been with Ichigo from birth, he was created in the shattered shaft. It was only luck and sheer will power that allowed Ichigo to manifest his Shinigami powers at the exact same moment he became a Hollow and for some reason the Hollow became a seperate being that now resides inside him.
How can Zangetsu and Shirosaki be the same being when both of them are seen on page together and talking anyway?
Like I said, people become Hollows. You aren't born with an evil little guy inside you, you become that evil little guy when all the good in you is stripped away. The only way Shirosaki could have been there from the start is if Ichigo is indeed Kaien reincarnated.
Bleach is all fucked up anyway, Kubo never explains how exactly a Soul Slayer ends up with a name and personality or what it has to do with a persons strength. He created a big world and lots of cool characters but that world doesn't have any depth to it.

[Nyat]

later in the series it is revealed that HIchigo and Zangetsu are the same beign meaning that them both were within Ichigo since he was born
When was this? Because I don't remember it, I do remember people having theories about it on the Bleach forums, but I don't remember the manga ever stating it.

[Dante]

Ichigo has Shinigami powers because his dad is a Shinigami. Shirosaki hasn't been with Ichigo from birth, he was created in the shattered shaft. It was only luck and sheer will power that allowed Ichigo to manifest his Shinigami powers at the exact same moment he became a Hollow and for some reason the Hollow became a seperate being that now resides inside him.
How can Zangetsu and Shirosaki be the same being when both of them are seen on page together and talking anyway?
Like I said, people become Hollows. You aren't born with an evil little guy inside you, you become that evil little guy when all the good in you is stripped away. The only way Shirosaki could have been there from the start is if Ichigo is indeed Kaien reincarnated.
Bleach is all fucked up anyway, Kubo never explains how exactly a Soul Slayer ends up with a name and personality or what it has to do with a persons strength. He created a big world and lots of cool characters but that world doesn't have any depth to it.
Ok, this is getting messed up now, I'll try to explain other way.

Both Shirosaki and Zangetsu are the two faces of Ichigo's spiritual power .
However, Ichigo was supposed to awaken far more easily his shinigami power since he's a shinigami's son, that is also why in his inner world his power was represented by Zangetsu (shinigami side) at this time, however due Urahara's strange way to make him awaken his power by trying to make him a hollow, the hollow part of his power started to awaken as well, this was explained by Shirosaki's words:

"I am Zangetsu" "Zangetsu and I were the same beign from the begining, however I've now token over him, that's why each time you try to use Zangetsu's power it's more easy for me to take over your soul"

That's no literal but more or less it what Shirosaki said, so if Shirosaki and Zangetsu are the same and they both are a tangible representation of Ichigo's power, they were there since he was born, since you are born with spiritual power.

Also, they both (Shirosaki and Zangetsu) were able to manifest in the same space precisely because shirosaki was gaining power and starting to take over.

However I agree with you, Kubo doesn't explain a thing.

When was this? Because I don't remember it, I do remember people having theories about it on the Bleach forums, but I don't remember the manga ever stating it.

In the last battle between Shirosaki and Ichigo (the title of the chapter was Balck and white 3 I think) Shirosaki explains to Ichigo this and tells him various times they've allways been the same beign. lok above to say what Shirosaki said.

[Ion]

Ichigo would have the same problem Loz had in AC,
Loz could only move in short bursts, and you could see him clearly the entire time. Ichigo could move so fast that he disappeared all together, and could keep going and going and going........
Ichigo is fast but not that fast.O Rly?
http://f5.putfile.com/5/12420023942.gifhttp://f5.putfile.com/5/12419592224.gif
I knew the gifs Kira Yamato gave me would come in handy

At what point during AC did Cloud fight any opponent that was as fast as Bankai Ichigo?

[Nyat]

I just looked it up, and your right

Chapter 218
Anti-Ichigo:「You should know that frrom the very beginning,」
Anti-Ichigo:「the old man and I have been one and the same.」
Anti-Ichigo:「Together, both of us compose the seat of your spiritual power.」
Anti-Ichigo:「I've always been a part of him.」
I'm not entirely sure if Anti-Ichigo is to be trusted, but anything else would be speculation so I'll concede the point.

[superbatman86]

The problem still is we don't know how fast Ichigo is.He has no speed feats other than against people and thos are unreliable because we don't know how fast they are.

[Piekage]

The same can be said of almost every character in the battledome though.

[Tsuuga]

The only really fast thing Cloud did was Omnislash v. 5. That was near instantaneous speed... Sephiroth was practically forzen inthe air when he did that. He was also pretty fast when he struck the motorcycle in half (that was practically frozen as well).

The thing is, with the different direction in Bleach and AC, it's hard to compare their speeds. AC used slow-mo a lot to show how fast Cloud is going, while Bleach prefers pseudo realtime to show Ichigo's speed. Therefore, we never know how fast Cloud is when he's performing his superhuman feats.

Cloud was able to go through Bahamut Sin's huge blast of spiritual energy, something I don't think could be accomplished with just speed. He then cut Sin in half. I can see Ichigo cutting it in half, too, but he would have taken damage taking a blast like that head-on. I think Cloud has super reflexes, though, because he never really took much of a hit from Loz or Yazoo. Ichigo's speed determines this, but Cloud probably has the advantage from what I've seen.

Ichigo is strong, but I don't think he has the same stamina as Cloud, who fought nonstop in AC and was almost fine until the end of the Sephiroth fight. I just don't think normal Bankai Ichigo is that strong (without his hollow).

[Bullet]

Ichigo wins, this isn't really a fight.

[superbatman86]

The only really fast thing Cloud did was Omnislash v. 5. That was near instantaneous speed... Sephiroth was practically forzen inthe air when he did that. He was also pretty fast when he struck the motorcycle in half (that was practically frozen as well).

The thing is, with the different direction in Bleach and AC, it's hard to compare their speeds. AC used slow-mo a lot to show how fast Cloud is going, while Bleach prefers pseudo realtime to show Ichigo's speed. Therefore, we never know how fast Cloud is when he's performing his superhuman feats.

Cloud was able to go through Bahamut Sin's huge blast of spiritual energy, something I don't think could be accomplished with just speed. He then cut Sin in half. I can see Ichigo cutting it in half, too, but he would have taken damage taking a blast like that head-on. I think Cloud has super reflexes, though, because he never really took much of a hit from Loz or Yazoo. Ichigo's speed determines this, but Cloud probably has the advantage from what I've seen.

Ichigo is strong, but I don't think he has the same stamina as Cloud, who fought nonstop in AC and was almost fine until the end of the Sephiroth fight. I just don't think normal Bankai Ichigo is that strong (without his hollow).
But we have seen cloud dodge bulltes fired pont-blank.